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Author Topic: Political Leanings of Mustachians?  (Read 48974 times)

NICE!

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #200 on: January 19, 2015, 03:09:09 AM »
I'll read it but you're going to have an uphill battle convincing anyone that Hitler, Stalin and Mao weren't more destructive than any Standard Oil-type enterprise ever was. The very discussion would be a joke. That was 20th Century stuff.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #201 on: January 19, 2015, 05:19:30 AM »
I'll read it but you're going to have an uphill battle convincing anyone that Hitler, Stalin and Mao weren't more destructive than any Standard Oil-type enterprise ever was. The very discussion would be a joke. That was 20th Century stuff.
Please inform me where that was stated because I must have not seen this post.
Also, if you WANTed to argue you could say that Standard Oil killed more people then these 3 persons personally together ;)

It would be more appropriate though to not take Standard Oil (where the "evil state" prevented a lot, not to mention Rockefeller later changing to a way more friendly human beeing) but economic undertakings like slavery trade and the Conquistadores, which were a lot less controlled and mark the earliest "companies" of international capitalism with private money-lenders and banks. (Venice traders and the Hanse were more guild-like based, and most things run on personal traders money anyway, with personal full risk)

« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 05:21:50 AM by LennStar »

FIPurpose

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #202 on: January 19, 2015, 08:02:48 AM »
So sole proprietors do not count as a business in this definition? Their business would be an extension of themselves. It seems like you all went straight to talking about global corporations in your examples.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #203 on: January 19, 2015, 10:18:38 AM »
So sole proprietors do not count as a business in this definition? Their business would be an extension of themselves. It seems like you all went straight to talking about global corporations in your examples.
The talk was about "evil" in corporations vs. "evil" in state. It was not about "evil" people.
In the case that people build 1-man-corporations or family-member corporations it makes no sense to look at them as corps, because the difference to the person is negligible. Especially when the corp exists not in what we consider today as "legal person". I doubt that any 16th century artisan in his bakery would have considered himself a corporation for example, even if he had a flourishing business.

In fact the difference between "This is my company, I build it with my hands and I decide" and "I am the manager of this company" is probably the main root for corporate evil.
While the person (even if he employs 100 people) had strict ethical standards (whatever they may be) and in some cases surely more importantly was connected and supervised by the people around him, the people of his town, where he lived, often his whole life.
That of course doesnt stop slavery if the society deems slaves normal and naturally, but it surely makes the entrepeneur think twice about where he puts his waste when the risk is high that his neighbor comes complaining with a sword in his hands if his wife cant wash his clothes because you put all this waste in the river ;)

That difference is visible today, too. Family led businesses tend to pay less, but be a lot more "family" to the workers and the place where they are.
Multinational corporations tend to hush up if a few workers get killed that nobody in the central has ever even heard of before. They are just numbers (expensive ones, too!).
Thats basic human psyche - somebody else is responsible, not me, I can do nothing! - even if you dont consider current "business moral" that sees "shareholder value" as the only goal, not stakeholder value (roughly = everyone who is influenced by the business) as it was just a few decades ago.

rocketpj

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #204 on: January 19, 2015, 11:26:02 AM »
I'll read it but you're going to have an uphill battle convincing anyone that Hitler, Stalin and Mao weren't more destructive than any Standard Oil-type enterprise ever was. The very discussion would be a joke. That was 20th Century stuff.

Nobody here is talking about those monsters.  I know that some strands of political argument in the US like to immediately leap to Mao and Stalin whenever people start talking about anything other than pure business anarchy, but that is a classic straw man and completely irrelevant to the discussion. 

Lots of bad people did bad things for bad reasons all through history.  I'm more interested in talking about how to do good things in the future - one of which included preventing such arseholes from ever having that kind of power again.

rocketpj

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #205 on: January 19, 2015, 11:34:25 AM »
So sole proprietors do not count as a business in this definition? Their business would be an extension of themselves. It seems like you all went straight to talking about global corporations in your examples.

Of course they count as a business.  But a sole proprietor can operate a business somewhat (though not completely) independent of state enforcement.  Because there is only one person responsible.  There is an upper limit on how bit a sole proprietorship can get because of that focus of responsibility, and a sole operator can only get so much financing to grow. 

However, if we want to have the kinds of companies that can create and mass produce iPhones and cars, we need some kind of corporate structure to distribute risk and generate investment.  That can't and won't happen without some fairly strong regulation, which requires some kind of central government, and (though many will deny it) is not particularly compatible with libertarian ideas. 

There is a reason people (including me) are cautious about investing in places like Somalia, Zimbabwe or Liberia.  Because we have less confidence our investment will be respected or protected by the legal and government culture in those countries.  Lack of government is very bad for business and investment, but for some reason libertarians in the US particularly have convinced themselves that governments are the root of the problem.

Bad government can definitely be a problem, and certainly is right now.  But no government can be worse.  That's why I tend to be a left libertarian - I think individuals should be as free as possible without harming or limiting the freedom of others.  But I think we need some kind of democratic system of governance to allow for business and individuals to thrive and support all of us. 

Daley

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #206 on: January 19, 2015, 12:04:22 PM »
The whole business discussion misses the forest for the trees. People get lost in the left-right labels and lose sight of what they actually represent on the compass itself by digging in their heels and getting lost in the mire of politics. Perhaps this illustration will help simplify what the left-right spectrum truly represents on the compass, and why I say what I do. Hint: it's not business control and ownership, it is merely one of two forces that sets the limitations by which business (amongst other things) operates.

I could go off on a tangent about how there's a necessary third axis that influences morals and ethics based on the argument over divine versus human sovereignty and how that preservation of freedom requires a common and universal framework beyond our individual desires, but this thread's enough of a crapfest already.

Chuck

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #207 on: January 19, 2015, 01:09:19 PM »


I'm surprised there are so few Right/Libertarians here. Healthy and unmolested capitalism is what makes ER even conceavable.

Kriegsspiel

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #208 on: January 19, 2015, 03:30:51 PM »
A lot of people are probably attracted to the hippie-ish environmental message MMM bandies about. A lot of people really like being little capitalists, engineering and tinkering with investments. Together, mustachians are hippiealists.

And of course, franklin w. dixon is holding down the socialist front.

a moist sack of nickels

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #209 on: January 19, 2015, 03:42:31 PM »



I don't think this is entirely correct

NICE!

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #210 on: January 19, 2015, 04:04:16 PM »
Nobody here is talking about those monsters.  I know that some strands of political argument in the US like to immediately leap to Mao and Stalin whenever people start talking about anything other than pure business anarchy, but that is a classic straw man and completely irrelevant to the discussion. 

Lots of bad people did bad things for bad reasons all through history.  I'm more interested in talking about how to do good things in the future - one of which included preventing such arseholes from ever having that kind of power again.

If you review my first post I said I'm suspicious of any concentrated power. I then stated that it is not up for debate which entity has caused more death and destruction throughout history - the state wins, hands down.

As for whomever mentioned the slave trade or mercantilism...A lot of those "companies" were basically extensions of the government, or governments themselves in many ways (East India Company). In fact, the modern corporation only exists at the behest of the state.

Again, concentrated power is the evil, especially when it is in the hands of the state. It is also bad when it is in the hands of a major corporation that can buy influence. It is worse when both of these things happen at the same time.

Clearly states have to exist. Clearly businesses (and maybe even corporations) have to exist. I want both limited to a certain degree. However, I must note that if you're more scared of business than government I feel that you're misreading history or worse, deliberately tossing it aside because it doesn't fit your worldview.

And to whomever keeps making strawmen of American Libertarians, give it a rest. Few actually want anarchy or even minarchy. This is like idiots saying that all liberals are closet socialists.

PS I was just right of center on the x and way, way down on the y (almost at the bottom)

eyePod

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #211 on: January 20, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »
I always found it fascinating that Obama and Romney were so close to each other. I wonder if his pre-election location would have been much more central.

Mistah Cash Lion

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2015, 11:33:22 PM »
Here are my results:
Economic Left/Right: 3.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74

Definitely right libertarian.



The two-party system and thinking in the US is so irritating. Both Republicans & Democrats increase spending, debt, war, government control, etc.  The main and real differences of these parties lies in their rhetoric. Two sides of the same coin.  I have learned not to spend too much of my energy or time thinking about it these days. I voted for Gary Johnson in the last election and will probably again if he is running the next time around.  This guy is the real deal. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 11:57:22 PM by Villarrealized »

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #213 on: March 15, 2015, 08:42:34 AM »
The chart and questions don't have much room for nuance, its just an average.

For example: I strongly believe that people should have the right to live in any way that they enjoy, so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's happiness. I also very strongly believe in police rights and a firm hand by the government so that when people do interfere with the happiness of others, they get dealt with swiftly and their punishments are severe.

I'm not sure this kind of thinking even has a voice in the USA. It seemingly is one or the other.

I live in China and one thing I love about it here: no violent crime. Other than pickpockets and govt corruption, there isn't crime to deal with in a person's everyday life. There are very few laws stopping people from doing what they want here in China, but if someone does hurt another person or break a law, the punishment is incredibly severe. Fine by me, I don't break the law and have no interest in hurting other people.

Is this kind of political thinking popular in the USA? Its been 10 years in China, I forget.

boy_bye

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #214 on: March 15, 2015, 10:30:33 AM »
The whole business discussion misses the forest for the trees. People get lost in the left-right labels and lose sight of what they actually represent on the compass itself by digging in their heels and getting lost in the mire of politics. Perhaps this illustration will help simplify what the left-right spectrum truly represents on the compass, and why I say what I do. Hint: it's not business control and ownership, it is merely one of two forces that sets the limitations by which business (amongst other things) operates.

I loved your graphic, IP. Very insightful.

Those of us here on the forum are all looking for more of that sweet sweet lower left corner, so it's not at all surprising that there'd be so many in that quadrant already ...

NICE!

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #215 on: March 16, 2015, 03:40:56 AM »
The chart and questions don't have much room for nuance, its just an average.

For example: I strongly believe that people should have the right to live in any way that they enjoy, so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's happiness. I also very strongly believe in police rights and a firm hand by the government so that when people do interfere with the happiness of others, they get dealt with swiftly and their punishments are severe.

I'm not sure this kind of thinking even has a voice in the USA. It seemingly is one or the other.

I live in China and one thing I love about it here: no violent crime. Other than pickpockets and govt corruption, there isn't crime to deal with in a person's everyday life. There are very few laws stopping people from doing what they want here in China, but if someone does hurt another person or break a law, the punishment is incredibly severe. Fine by me, I don't break the law and have no interest in hurting other people.

Is this kind of political thinking popular in the USA? Its been 10 years in China, I forget.

I think culture has far more to do with this than aggressive enforcement and punishment. Chinese culture is heavy on hierarchy and order, which is very different than say, American culture.

Americans have always been violent, it is the early frontier mindset that is still in our culture, which is also the source of our optimism and belief that everyone has the opportunity to make it.

All that being said, violent crime has been declining since the 1970s in the US, so even is violent Americans are getting better. Pinker, in his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature," certainly does not think that harsh punishments are why violence has declined.

MrFancypants

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #216 on: March 16, 2015, 09:35:37 AM »
All that being said, violent crime has been declining since the 1970s in the US, so even is violent Americans are getting better. Pinker, in his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature," certainly does not think that harsh punishments are why violence has declined.

That's a good book.  I'm impressed that someone else has read it.  It certainly gave my perceptions of violence throughout history a bit of an adjustment.

PeachFuzzInVA

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #217 on: March 17, 2015, 01:44:11 PM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #218 on: March 17, 2015, 02:37:43 PM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?

PeachFuzzInVA

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #219 on: March 17, 2015, 02:53:23 PM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?

I don't know which is more absurd, your reply or the fact that I'm dignifying your reply with a response. :rolleyes:

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #220 on: March 18, 2015, 02:31:33 AM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?

I don't know which is more absurd, your reply or the fact that I'm dignifying your reply with a response. :rolleyes:
Then please dignify me further by explaining what you mean with "Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary."

andy85

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #221 on: March 18, 2015, 06:16:47 AM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?

I don't know which is more absurd, your reply or the fact that I'm dignifying your reply with a response. :rolleyes:
+1 (i'm not a voluntarist though)
the major component of voluntaryism is the non-aggression principle. so shooting people, running red lights, and theft are in direct opposition to this political view. Voluntarist, from my limited understanding, are anti-state/government and believe in a free society. I would consider libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism cousins of voluntaryism.

PeachFuzzInVA

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #222 on: March 18, 2015, 03:15:57 PM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?

I don't know which is more absurd, your reply or the fact that I'm dignifying your reply with a response. :rolleyes:
Then please dignify me further by explaining what you mean with "Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary."

As Andy said, everything you listed would be the antithesis of voluntaryism. It's a belief that our interactions, our relationships, and our exchanges should be by mutual consent. The use of violence, force, or coersion, unless in self-defense, is morally unacceptable.

Ditchmonkey

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #223 on: March 18, 2015, 05:13:43 PM »
Centrist / Moderate...the truth is always in the middle.

That is a tragic miscalculation when you aren't the one creating the scale.

LennStar

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #224 on: March 19, 2015, 03:19:17 AM »
Too many ambiguities in this questionare. I'm a voluntaryist. Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary.
You mean its completely voluntary if we shoot other people or not, if we ignore red traffic lights, if we pay or not when taking something out of a store?
SO a voluntarist is strongly for a basic income, since without you are forced to sell yourself in the labor market?

I don't know which is more absurd, your reply or the fact that I'm dignifying your reply with a response. :rolleyes:
Then please dignify me further by explaining what you mean with "Our interactions and participation in society should be strictly voluntary."

As Andy said, everything you listed would be the antithesis of voluntaryism. It's a belief that our interactions, our relationships, and our exchanges should be by mutual consent. The use of violence, force, or coersion, unless in self-defense, is morally unacceptable.

Pigeon

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #225 on: March 19, 2015, 03:52:27 AM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. If you run afoul of the government for political reasons, you can be disappeared. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of human trafficking and gang activity.

GuitarStv

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #226 on: March 19, 2015, 09:23:57 AM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

Pigeon

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #227 on: March 19, 2015, 03:09:34 PM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

There has been plenty of reporting about Ferguson.  Yes, crappy things happen in the US, absolutely.  Things that deserve outrage.  But I'll take our legal system hands down.  It's not perfect, but one is at least entitled to a real defense if one can afford it.  One can also protest, for the most part, without getting run over by tanks.

I'm not hugely anti-China.  Part of my family is Chinese.  I do have a problem with police with unlimited authority.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 03:11:59 PM by Pigeon »

arebelspy

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #228 on: March 19, 2015, 03:13:25 PM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

There has been plenty of reporting about Ferguson.  Yes, crappy things happen in the US, absolutely.  Things that deserve outrage.  But I'll take our legal system hands down.  It's not perfect, but one is at least entitled to a real defense if one can afford it.  One can also protest, for the most part, without getting run over by tanks.

I'm not hugely anti-China.  Part of my family is Chinese.  I do have a problem with police with unlimited authority.

Heh.  Sometimes. 
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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #229 on: March 19, 2015, 05:31:48 PM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

There has been plenty of reporting about Ferguson.  Yes, crappy things happen in the US, absolutely.  Things that deserve outrage.  But I'll take our legal system hands down.  It's not perfect, but one is at least entitled to a real defense if one can afford it.  One can also protest, for the most part, without getting run over by tanks.

I'm not hugely anti-China.  Part of my family is Chinese.  I do have a problem with police with unlimited authority.

Heh.  Sometimes.

+1.

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #230 on: March 21, 2015, 03:02:15 PM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

You mean violent riots, looting and the attempted murder of two police officers? 

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #231 on: March 23, 2015, 02:51:19 AM »
In China, there is no due process or rule of law. The police don't always get the right criminal but if you get a bullet through the head and are innocent that is just too bad. The media is tightly controlled to an amazing degree.

There is violent crime. There is a pretty fair amount of gang activity.

You mean Ferguson, not China right?

You mean violent riots, looting and the attempted murder of two police officers?

And here we go...everyone is going to shout past each other, with neither side being willing to admit the merits of each 'side's' perspective.

arebelspy

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Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #232 on: March 23, 2015, 08:46:54 AM »
I just got a fun surprise though in realizing there are actual people who agree with the police in that instance. Wow.  What a world we live in.  :)
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