Author Topic: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux  (Read 15188 times)


MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2015, 12:05:52 PM »
Both of them have been singing the same tune of doom for over a decade.  It's obvious that the US dollar will destroy itself eventually.  What is more useful is a time frame prediction.  If the US dollar isn't going to go hyper in my lifetime, is that a useful prediction?

Bob W

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 12:33:36 PM »
Both of them have been singing the same tune of doom for over a decade.  It's obvious that the US dollar will destroy itself eventually.  What is more useful is a time frame prediction.  If the US dollar isn't going to go hyper in my lifetime, is that a useful prediction?

Agreed,  all currencies eventually fail.   It probably will happen in most readers here lifetime.  (shit 60 years is a very long time)  I think there will be more significant warning signs for several years prior to the collapse though.  It is not like we are going happily along oblivious to our debt and then suddenly bam someone pulls the plug.  It is far more likely a catastrophic event (nuclear, biological, global warming induced) will be what brings the US down. 

 Fortunately, we have the nuclear bombs that say we can take any country's money,  gold,  oil, land and people anytime we want.   So in that respect we are indeed the richest nation in the world and essentially can control and have whatever we want.   We could shut down China with the stroke of a pen banning all Chinese imports.   If we wanted to push it, we could further tell China to cease exporting anything.    I doubt that their 1 used,  half restored Soviet air craft carrier will be much help to them. 

Other countries prosper because we let them.  They have a franchise license issued by Uncle Sam.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2015, 12:39:45 PM »
   We could shut down China with the stroke of a pen banning all Chinese imports.   If we wanted to push it, we could further tell China to cease exporting anything.    I doubt that their 1 used,  half restored Soviet air craft carrier will be much help to them. 

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Chris22

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2015, 12:55:29 PM »
   We could shut down China with the stroke of a pen banning all Chinese imports.   If we wanted to push it, we could further tell China to cease exporting anything.    I doubt that their 1 used,  half restored Soviet air craft carrier will be much help to them. 

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Nah, you could do something extreme like a debt swap that nullified only China's claims and no one else's.  The US would take a credibility hit, but if you could either point to or manufacture an act of war against us by them, you could probably pull it off. 


The whole "dollar will collapse" thing is always out there, but the secondary question is "in relation to what?"  Who has a stronger currency?  Amongst superpowers, the Euro is dying, the Yuan is currently artificially pegged to the dollar and their economy has a whole host of structural problems and a GIANT government credibility issue, and the Rubble is toast.

Eric

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 01:01:02 PM »
   We could shut down China with the stroke of a pen banning all Chinese imports.   If we wanted to push it, we could further tell China to cease exporting anything.    I doubt that their 1 used,  half restored Soviet air craft carrier will be much help to them. 

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Nah, you could do something extreme like a debt swap that nullified only China's claims and no one else's.  The US would take a credibility hit, but if you could either point to or manufacture an act of war against us by them, you could probably pull it off. 


The whole "dollar will collapse" thing is always out there, but the secondary question is "in relation to what?"  Who has a stronger currency?  Amongst superpowers, the Euro is dying, the Yuan is currently artificially pegged to the dollar and their economy has a whole host of structural problems and a GIANT government credibility issue, and the Rubble is toast.

See, now you're thinking!  Buy that gold now, before all world currencies become worthless!

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 01:07:09 PM »
   We could shut down China with the stroke of a pen banning all Chinese imports.   If we wanted to push it, we could further tell China to cease exporting anything.    I doubt that their 1 used,  half restored Soviet air craft carrier will be much help to them. 

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Nah, you could do something extreme like a debt swap that nullified only China's claims and no one else's.  The US would take a credibility hit, but if you could either point to or manufacture an act of war against us by them, you could probably pull it off. 

Doubtful, because China is not usually forthcoming about their plans, and would not likely be more likely to share after we screwed over their economy.  Also, who do you think they would sell those shares to?  Mostly other nations at a discount.  There would be no way to nullify only those China owned.
Quote

The whole "dollar will collapse" thing is always out there, but the secondary question is "in relation to what?"  Who has a stronger currency?

Bitcoin.  Gold.  Silver.

There is always an alternative, even if you don't know what it is yet.  Hyperinflation is the death of a currency, and is always and everywhere a political event.  The geeks at the Federal Reserve are never going to 'break' the dollar on purpose, because then their scam is over.  But it will happen someday anyway.

Quote

 Amongst superpowers, the Euro is dying, the Yuan is currently artificially pegged to the dollar and their economy has a whole host of structural problems and a GIANT government credibility issue, and the Rubble is toast.

You speak of that which you do not know.  Many of the national economic factors that would drag the US or Western Europe down into a long recession do not apply to Russia.  There are many reasons that the Russian culture is more able to take a downturn, and that is why Russian companies are a pretty good buy right now.

choppingwood

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 02:11:35 PM »
Other countries prosper because we let them.  They have a franchise license issued by Uncle Sam.

This is the point in a meeting where I cough.

I'll be damned if I know what the emoticon is for coughing, though.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2015, 02:28:02 PM »
Other countries prosper because we let them.  They have a franchise license issued by Uncle Sam.

This is the point in a meeting where I cough.

I'll be damned if I know what the emoticon is for coughing, though.

<cough>

Bob W

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 03:32:11 PM »
Other countries prosper because we let them.  They have a franchise license issued by Uncle Sam.

This is the point in a meeting where I cough.

I'll be damned if I know what the emoticon is for coughing, though.

<cough>
  Not sure what all the coughing is about?  Cough drop anyone?  Perhaps you are unaware of Uncle Sam's big stick policy?  It has been in effect since WWII.   The policy says -- "If you want to be a prosperous country then don't fuck with us."     Take note of all the countries that fuck with us and see their unprosperous economies.    Cuba would be one of the coolest, richest countries around had they not fucked with us. 

 

 

choppingwood

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 04:57:37 PM »
Not sure what all the coughing is about?  Cough drop anyone?   

No.
<cough>
Thanks.
<cough>
I am pretty sure my mother taught me not to take cough drops from strangers carrying big sticks.

Thanks for offering the aid, though.

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 04:59:15 PM »
Ironically, the USD has risen about 20% versus most major currencies in the past 12 months. So, right now as we speak the dollar is doing the exact opposite of collapsing.

And as for the Chinese; all we have to do is start inflation like Nixon did and their USD holdings would very quickly be worth a whole lot less. Inflation is a lot less overt than other measures suggested in this thread. And it doesn't require Dems and Reps to agree on anything either.

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 05:05:19 PM »

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Actually, if China divested their USD holdings, the USD would drop, thus making all goods in America cheaper than before for foreigners. The result would be a huge economic boom for the USA as foreigners buy US made goods at discounts, while at the same time China would take a loss on their holdings as they would receive fewer Yuan per dollar. So, it is not now and never will be in their best economic interest to sell their USD holdings.

Never forget: USD can only be spent in one country; the USA. So, all those USD in China have to come to the USA to be spent. Or else sit overseas forever in some account, unused. There is no other alternative.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 05:32:47 PM »
And as for the Chinese; all we have to do is start inflation like Nixon did and their USD holdings would very quickly be worth a whole lot less. Inflation is a lot less overt than other measures suggested in this thread. And it doesn't require Dems and Reps to agree on anything either.

So would pretty much everyone else's.  This is like cutting off your nose to spite your own face.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 05:37:01 PM »

No, but that huge cache of US Treasury bonds they are sitting on would destroy our economy if China divested.

Actually, if China divested their USD holdings, the USD would drop, thus making all goods in America cheaper than before for foreigners. The result would be a huge economic boom for the USA as foreigners buy US made goods at discounts, while at the same time China would take a loss on their holdings as they would receive fewer Yuan per dollar. So, it is not now and never will be in their best economic interest to sell their USD holdings.
This is a falsehood, as the effect would be very temporary.  And I didn't claim that it would be in China's best economic interests to divest of their Us treasury bonds, just that they could do it if the US government managed to piss them off enough.  Banning trade with China might actually have that effect.
Quote
Never forget: USD can only be spent in one country; the USA. So, all those USD in China have to come to the USA to be spent. Or else sit overseas forever in some account, unused. There is no other alternative.

You really don't understand the concept of a 'international reserve currency' do you?  You can spend actual US dollar bills in just about every nation on Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

Seppia

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 06:07:03 PM »


 Who has a stronger currency?

Bitcoin.  Gold.  Silver.


LOL
Sorry but

Bitcoin: the only thing giving a line of code like Bitcoin "value" is the willingness of people to take it in exchange for goods.
The real value of it is zero.
A lot of people ignore that for real currencies pretty much the only true reason that makes them REALLY valuable is the fact that they are the only form of payment that the issuer (the Country) accepts for tax payments.
Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Gold and silver are inanimate, unproductive objects that serve no purpose whatsoever.
The only scenario where they could possibly replace money is a nuclear Third World War or some other catastrophic event stronger and more disruptive than anything humanity has ever seen.
At that point, we would have other stuff to worry about than our 401ks, and I'd rather own a cow than a stick of gold honestly

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 07:14:15 PM »


 Who has a stronger currency?

Bitcoin.  Gold.  Silver.


LOL
Sorry but

Bitcoin: the only thing giving a line of code like Bitcoin "value" is the willingness of people to take it in exchange for goods.
The real value of it is zero.


This is equally true for gold as well.  This observation doesn't change the obvious fact that both of them actually do have an exchange value.  You can reasonablely make the argument that Bitcoin doesn't have a future value, but not that it doesn't have a present value.

Quote
A lot of people ignore that for real currencies pretty much the only true reason that makes them REALLY valuable is the fact that they are the only form of payment that the issuer (the Country) accepts for tax payments.
Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Again, neither does gold. And no fiat currency would have any trade value at all without those legal tender laws backing them up.

Quote
Gold and silver are inanimate, unproductive objects that serve no purpose whatsoever.

Well, silver actually does have quite a few industrial uses, but this argument generally holds with gold.  My response to this observation is, so what?  Gold has both a market value, and a very long history to suggest that it will continue to do so.  Gold is not only a true money, it's the only example of a natural money in continuous use for as long as there has been written records.  For some people, that history does have value.  I care much less on the source of that value, personally.

Quote

The only scenario where they could possibly replace money is a nuclear Third World War or some other catastrophic event stronger and more disruptive than anything humanity has ever seen.


Says you.  There are a whole lot of central & national banks whose actions suggest they don't agree.  And far less than a world war would be required to force many nations back onto a commodity standard.  The break up of the Eurozone might be enough to force a defacto gold standard, although the common man might never notice.

Furthermore, it would take far less uncertainty than even that to favor Bitcoin as a rising player in international trade.  It was well designed, and it has since been well tested.  There are things that Bitcoin can do natively that can't be done even by digital fiat currencies right now without involving a trusted third party in the transaction.  I was there early on, and I understand how the system works as well as how the security model works.  I was wary in the early years, but I'm confident enough now to say that if there were flaws, they would have been exploited by now.  Bitcoin is here to stay.  I used the same name on the bitcointalk forums, so you can go back there and read (almost) everything I wrote about the topic.  I stand by it all.


Quote
At that point, we would have other stuff to worry about than our 401ks, and I'd rather own a cow than a stick of gold honestly

So would I, and I don't own any gold, myself.  I do own silver as well as Bitcoin, but I'd be more likely to buy more firearms before buying gold.  However, gold is an asset whose price movements don't corrolate well with other types of investments, so it certainly does have a niche place in a large portfolio.  There is simply only so many cows and firearms the typical quarter-acre sub-urban lot can support.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 07:16:46 PM by MoonShadow »

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2015, 08:09:40 AM »


You really don't understand the concept of a 'international reserve currency' do you?  You can spend actual US dollar bills in just about every nation on Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

Hmm... .I think that you can only spend USD bills in the USA. Whenever I go to another country they have a strange habit of requesting their own currency. This experience directly contradicts your above statement.

Currency reserves are 'held' by a country, not spent.

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 12:32:43 PM »



You really don't understand the concept of a 'international reserve currency' do you?  You can spend actual US dollar bills in just about every nation on Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency

Hmm... .I think that you can only spend USD bills in the USA. Whenever I go to another country they have a strange habit of requesting their own currency. This experience directly contradicts your above statement.
Yes, they have a preference.  That doesn't mean you can't spend dollars, or at least trade dollars for local currency, in any city.
Quote
Currency reserves are 'held' by a country, not spent.

Do you think that reserves are never spent?  What do you intend to do with your reserves?

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 01:18:53 PM »
"Trading dollars for local currency, in any city" means that you are then spending the local currency, NOT USD. Again, the only way for that dollar to get spent is for it to come back to the USA and be spent in the USA.

Governments can do many things with their reserves:

A) They can (as China is doing now) is just hold them 'in reserve' and signal to the world that the country is powerful b/c of the amount of foreign currency they own. This amounts to a free loan to the USA in as far as the interest received on USD Treasures is lower than the inflation rate. With $2trillion (!) in reserve, this 'interest rate tax' is a $20billion/year (!!!) gift to the USA from the PRC, if we assume that the difference in the interest rate and inflation rate is only 1%. It's very very good to have your currency as the global reserve currency!! No one wants to talk about this, for obvious reasons.

B) The gov't can use them to defend your currency in the open market. Russia did this earlier this year, to the tune of about $100 billion, as best estimates go. Mexico is doing this now on a limited basis, up to $5billion or so. The result? The overseas government has more of their own currency and less USD. The buyers of the USD can now do whatever they want with those USD. But, if they want to spend them, they must bring them to the USA. BTW: The USA NEVER has to do this, as we are the reserve currency (see 'A' above about why this is good)

C) The gov't can trade these USD for raw materials or manufactured goods. Say, Airplanes, or oil. China wants oil, so it takes from it's reserves and sends this to Iran. Iran pays it's employees and suppliers and taxes not in USD, but in Rials (?). So the USD sit in Iran as a reserve until they are needed. Now, Iran wants to buy around 80 airplanes once sanctions are lifted. They want to buy equally from Boeing (USA) and Airbus (Europe). They will take the reserve currency they have and for the Boeings, they will SPEND THEM IN THE USA. For the Airbus, they will TRADE THEM FOR EUROS and spend those euros in Europe. Airbus doesn't pay their employees and suppliers and taxes in USD, so they will trade the USD for EUR. And the process starts all over again, until the Europeans need something from the USA, etc.

So, spending them in the USA is one option of many for a gov't, not the only option.

Bob W

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2015, 01:29:33 PM »
"Trading dollars for local currency, in any city" means that you are then spending the local currency, NOT USD. Again, the only way for that dollar to get spent is for it to come back to the USA and be spent in the USA.

Governments can do many things with their reserves:

A) They can (as China is doing now) is just hold them 'in reserve' and signal to the world that the country is powerful b/c of the amount of foreign currency they own. This amounts to a free loan to the USA in as far as the interest received on USD Treasures is lower than the inflation rate. With $2trillion (!) in reserve, this 'interest rate tax' is a $20billion/year (!!!) gift to the USA from the PRC, if we assume that the difference in the interest rate and inflation rate is only 1%. It's very very good to have your currency as the global reserve currency!! No one wants to talk about this, for obvious reasons.

B) The gov't can use them to defend your currency in the open market. Russia did this earlier this year, to the tune of about $100 billion, as best estimates go. Mexico is doing this now on a limited basis, up to $5billion or so. The result? The overseas government has more of their own currency and less USD. The buyers of the USD can now do whatever they want with those USD. But, if they want to spend them, they must bring them to the USA. BTW: The USA NEVER has to do this, as we are the reserve currency (see 'A' above about why this is good)

C) The gov't can trade these USD for raw materials or manufactured goods. Say, Airplanes, or oil. China wants oil, so it takes from it's reserves and sends this to Iran. Iran pays it's employees and suppliers and taxes not in USD, but in Rials (?). So the USD sit in Iran as a reserve until they are needed. Now, Iran wants to buy around 80 airplanes once sanctions are lifted. They want to buy equally from Boeing (USA) and Airbus (Europe). They will take the reserve currency they have and for the Boeings, they will SPEND THEM IN THE USA. For the Airbus, they will TRADE THEM FOR EUROS and spend those euros in Europe. Airbus doesn't pay their employees and suppliers and taxes in USD, so they will trade the USD for EUR. And the process starts all over again, until the Europeans need something from the USA, etc.

So, spending them in the USA is one option of many for a gov't, not the only option.

Like your critique... So we are using the word currency when we are really talking about numbers on computer screen.   So how does that work?  The number says  $100 us?   Just curious because I assume we aren't talking about 100 dollar bills here.

Although my buddy in Iraq did have suitcases of 100 dollar bills as that was how the local contractors were paid.   So is the Chinese 2 Trillion in 100s or numbers on a computer?

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2015, 01:33:14 PM »
Now, something very interesting happens when a currency loses it's reserve status, as happened to the British Pound after WWII. Britain was experiencing inflation and no matter what the Chancellor of the Exchequer (their Fed) did to raise interest rates, the pounds were flooding the economy. The good news is that all spending that was happening lowered unemployment, but inflation was a real problem.

If you are interested in the benefits of reserve currency status and the potential end of that in the USA, I found this link to be pretty informative:
http://dailyreckoning.com/one-dominant-currency/

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2015, 01:35:29 PM »
[quote ]

Hmm... .I think that you can only spend USD bills in the USA. Whenever I go to another country they have a strange habit of requesting their own currency. This experience directly contradicts your above statement.

[/quote]

Equador's national currency is the USD.  I believe the same is true of El Salvador.

It is also considered legal tender in Panama. (Actual legal tender, not just acceptable by most places like many areas of Mexico; where you don't trade it for local tender, but for goods and services the same way you do in the United States.)

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2015, 01:51:25 PM »
"Trading dollars for local currency, in any city" means that you are then spending the local currency, NOT USD. Again, the only way for that dollar to get spent is for it to come back to the USA and be spent in the USA.

Governments can do many things with their reserves:

A) They can (as China is doing now) is just hold them 'in reserve' and signal to the world that the country is powerful b/c of the amount of foreign currency they own. This amounts to a free loan to the USA in as far as the interest received on USD Treasures is lower than the inflation rate. With $2trillion (!) in reserve, this 'interest rate tax' is a $20billion/year (!!!) gift to the USA from the PRC, if we assume that the difference in the interest rate and inflation rate is only 1%. It's very very good to have your currency as the global reserve currency!! No one wants to talk about this, for obvious reasons.

B) The gov't can use them to defend your currency in the open market. Russia did this earlier this year, to the tune of about $100 billion, as best estimates go. Mexico is doing this now on a limited basis, up to $5billion or so. The result? The overseas government has more of their own currency and less USD. The buyers of the USD can now do whatever they want with those USD. But, if they want to spend them, they must bring them to the USA. BTW: The USA NEVER has to do this, as we are the reserve currency (see 'A' above about why this is good)

C) The gov't can trade these USD for raw materials or manufactured goods. Say, Airplanes, or oil. China wants oil, so it takes from it's reserves and sends this to Iran. Iran pays it's employees and suppliers and taxes not in USD, but in Rials (?). So the USD sit in Iran as a reserve until they are needed. Now, Iran wants to buy around 80 airplanes once sanctions are lifted. They want to buy equally from Boeing (USA) and Airbus (Europe). They will take the reserve currency they have and for the Boeings, they will SPEND THEM IN THE USA. For the Airbus, they will TRADE THEM FOR EUROS and spend those euros in Europe. Airbus doesn't pay their employees and suppliers and taxes in USD, so they will trade the USD for EUR. And the process starts all over again, until the Europeans need something from the USA, etc.

So, spending them in the USA is one option of many for a gov't, not the only option.

A is savings.

B is spending.

C is spending.

Just because a national government is doing the action, and the scale is much larger, does not change the fact that this is what is happening.  Nations save in foreign currency reserves for the exact same reasons that corporations and wealthy individuals do, so that they have something that they can spend internationally in the event of a crisis with their own currency.  While the US dollar is the #1 reserve, other currencies as well as gold is used for this purpose; by both nations and international corporations.  Yes, those dollars will eventually make it back to the US, but so what?  That is not what my objection was about.  China has already been known to use US currency reserves to buy resources and land in Africa and South America.  How do you propose that we isolate China's reserves without undermining the international trust in the US dollar generally?  Do you really think that the Chinese can't 'launder' their funds?  Do you not think that they have already considered this possibility? 

bwall

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2015, 02:06:36 PM »

Like your critique... So we are using the word currency when we are really talking about numbers on computer screen.   So how does that work?  The number says  $100 us?   Just curious because I assume we aren't talking about 100 dollar bills here.

Although my buddy in Iraq did have suitcases of 100 dollar bills as that was how the local contractors were paid.   So is the Chinese 2 Trillion in 100s or numbers on a computer?

Well... it's a bit tricky to get a handle on....... First off, the Iraqi was, as economists would say, 'not in equilibrium', therefore the need for USD notes. I presume that is no longer the case today. .. . But, I may be mistaken.

The Chinese $2trillion, where did it come from and how did it get on their computer screen? is the question, I believe. Let's imagine the world in 1990, China was dirt poor and had literally hundreds of millions of un/underemployed people who had no hope of a job, no education, no imported goods in the shops, no cars, no nothin'. How do you fix THAT mess? I'd give up before even trying if I had that steaming pile o' dung on my plate. But, the government there said at some level, 'let's become the factory of the world'. And they invited foreigners (textile?) in and said 'we'll give you land and tax breaks, just give our people work. They may be uneducated and illiterate, but they are happy to earn 10 cents/hr. Oh, and you must have a local partner at 51%'. Slowly the foreigners arrived and brought with them factories and assembled/sold crap to the USA and Europe.

Now, thank you for reading this far as that background is necessary to the actual answering of your question where it gets interesting. The factory produces 100 tons of an item. We could call 'crap' or widgets. Economists generally prefer the term 'widget' even if the other term better describes the products coming from China. So, 100 tons of widgets, sold to Wal-mart at $10,000/ton, that's $1million USD. Wal-Mart has $1million USD, Chinese factory has 100 tons of crap. They trade one for the other; the Chinese factory puts the 100 tons of crap into containers and they sail to L.A. Walmart sends by bank wire transfer $1million to the Chinese factory's bank account. Walmart now has 100 tons of junk to sell, and the factory has $1million USD. (Wal-mart got that $1million USD in their bank account from it's customers in the USA, who paid with their hard earned dollars, either cash or debit card). Now, the factory has a problem. It has to pay the workers 10 cents an hour in the local currency. And electricity, and rent, and suppliers, bribes, taxes etc. all need to be paid in Yuan. But, it only has USD, not Yuan. So, it goes to the bank and says "I want to trade this USD for Yuan". AND HERE IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD:

1) The Chinese gov't, not the market, sets the exchange rate. 2) It prints 'new' yuan to exchange for the $1million. 3) This USD is now in China's currency reserve and (presumably) they park this money in US Treasuries.

So, basically, China's money supply is increasing at the rate of it's global trade. The USA gov't doesn't have to pay interest on that $1m beyond the current level on T-notes, which, as ALL MUSTASCHIANS know, is a really, really piss-poor investment, often not even keeping up with inflation. But, how else do you park $2 trillion (seriously)? The difference between the interest on the T-note and inflation results in a transfer of wealth from China to the USA.

So, the answer to the question is; the $2trillion started out as USD notes in American's bank accounts and is now in the account of the Chinese gov't, but crumbling in value every year, to the benefit of the USA.

Additional factoid for those who have read this far: China is actively seeking to increase its reserves. The gov't places a limit of $50,000 on the amount of USD that a person/company can purchase every year. The result is fewer imported goods and therefore lower consumption in China than would otherwise be the case.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2015, 02:13:55 PM »
[quote ]

Hmm... .I think that you can only spend USD bills in the USA. Whenever I go to another country they have a strange habit of requesting their own currency. This experience directly contradicts your above statement.


Equador's national currency is the USD.  I believe the same is true of El Salvador.

It is also considered legal tender in Panama. (Actual legal tender, not just acceptable by most places like many areas of Mexico; where you don't trade it for local tender, but for goods and services the same way you do in the United States.)
[/quote]

I wondered if someone would mention that. Equador, and in the 1990's Argentina, and perhaps Zimbabwe today use the USD as currency unilaterally. This means that their politicians have so utterly and completely F'd the country that they cannot be trusted, so they have chosen on their own accord and volition and without consent of the USA to use the USD. This means that they also agree to accept our interest rates and tie themselves to our business cycle, for better or worse. So, from a USA currency accounting point of view, all the USD in circulation there are in effect the same as if they were sitting in your closet or under your mattress, unused. Heck, we don't even have to pay interest on those USD as the dollars aren't in Treasuries, they are in circulation.

When the USD was weak, I'm sure that their economies functioned rather well. But now that the dollar has risen 20-25% this year, the price of their goods rise with the dollar which will crimp their economic activity.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2015, 02:20:48 PM »

A is savings.

B is spending.

C is spending.

Just because a national government is doing the action, and the scale is much larger, does not change the fact that this is what is happening.  Nations save in foreign currency reserves for the exact same reasons that corporations and wealthy individuals do, so that they have something that they can spend internationally in the event of a crisis with their own currency.  While the US dollar is the #1 reserve, other currencies as well as gold is used for this purpose; by both nations and international corporations.  Yes, those dollars will eventually make it back to the US, but so what?  That is not what my objection was about.  China has already been known to use US currency reserves to buy resources and land in Africa and South America.  How do you propose that we isolate China's reserves without undermining the international trust in the US dollar generally?  Do you really think that the Chinese can't 'launder' their funds?  Do you not think that they have already considered this possibility?

Did I read that right? Are you suggesting that international corporations hold gold as a store of value? I've never heard of this before. Please let me know which company is doing this! (P.S. Gold miners and jewelry companies do not count, as that is 'cost of goods sold' not 'reserves').

Isolating China's reserves is basically theft. They got something fair and square and now someone wants to take it away. It's called theft. What if your boss said that you are saving too much money, too 'Mustaschian!' and one day you might leave, so he needs to 'isolate' you from your account?

Uhh..... Why would the Chinese want to 'launder' their money? For what purpose? Avoiding theft?

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2015, 02:42:11 PM »

A is savings.

B is spending.

C is spending.

Just because a national government is doing the action, and the scale is much larger, does not change the fact that this is what is happening.  Nations save in foreign currency reserves for the exact same reasons that corporations and wealthy individuals do, so that they have something that they can spend internationally in the event of a crisis with their own currency.  While the US dollar is the #1 reserve, other currencies as well as gold is used for this purpose; by both nations and international corporations.  Yes, those dollars will eventually make it back to the US, but so what?  That is not what my objection was about.  China has already been known to use US currency reserves to buy resources and land in Africa and South America.  How do you propose that we isolate China's reserves without undermining the international trust in the US dollar generally?  Do you really think that the Chinese can't 'launder' their funds?  Do you not think that they have already considered this possibility?

Did I read that right? Are you suggesting that international corporations hold gold as a store of value?

A few do.  Most simply hold currencies in their other major markets, such as the Euro, to mitigate the effects of currency exchange risk.  But a few huge international corporations do hold actual gold, at least they have in the past.  International shipping, particularly out of Hong Kong, seems to be the most likely industry to do this.  I would guess this is because they have markets everywhere, or it's a legacy habit from the age of the gold standard; but private gold depositories exist, and both individuals and corporations do use them.  I read somewhere that China's official gold reserves are somewhere close to 1,600 tons these days alone; and that the private stores of gold, just in Hong Kong, are around 2 tons (estimated).  But no one can really know for certain, because not every person or corporation is forthcoming about how they do things.

Another industry that has a history of holding gold is life insurance companies.  I have no idea if they still do, but it's probably more likely that they just hold GLD shares these days.

Quote

I've never heard of this before. Please let me know which company is doing this! (P.S. Gold miners and jewelry companies do not count, as that is 'cost of goods sold' not 'reserves').


I would if I could, but that's not exactly public information.

Quote

Isolating China's reserves is basically theft.

I agree completely.

Quote
Uhh..... Why would the Chinese want to 'launder' their money? For what purpose? Avoiding theft?

Perhaps you would consider going back up this thread, and reading Bob w's post that I was responding to that got us on this tangent to start with.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 02:51:31 PM »


Quote

I've never heard of this before. Please let me know which company is doing this! (P.S. Gold miners and jewelry companies do not count, as that is 'cost of goods sold' not 'reserves').


I would if I could, but that's not exactly public information.


Then how do you know it is happening?
I think that this information is something that would be on the balance sheet of any international company and would be mentioned in every quarterly conference call.

BTW: China's official gold reserves are gov't reserves, not international company reserves.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2015, 03:02:32 PM »


Quote

I've never heard of this before. Please let me know which company is doing this! (P.S. Gold miners and jewelry companies do not count, as that is 'cost of goods sold' not 'reserves').


I would if I could, but that's not exactly public information.


Then how do you know it is happening?

Because it's happened in the past, I strongly suspect that it continues.  I can't find any proof of this, however.

Quote
I think that this information is something that would be on the balance sheet of any international company and would be mentioned in every quarterly conference call.
Doubtful.  Gold reserves would simply be another asset.  It might be in a prospectus somewhere.

Quote
BTW: China's official gold reserves are gov't reserves, not international company reserves.

Yes, I am aware.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2015, 04:13:27 PM »
It's obvious that the US dollar will destroy itself eventually.

How is this obvious?  What indicates the US dollar will be "destroyed" in the next 100 years?

The dollar has been running along without too much commotion for the last 223 years.  I'd bet on more of the same over the next 50 years: a stable dollar and increasing stock market.

Tell me again why "this time is different!"

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2015, 04:25:33 PM »
It's obvious that the US dollar will destroy itself eventually.

How is this obvious?


Because all fiat currencies have a life cycle.
Quote
What indicates the US dollar will be "destroyed" in the next 100 years?
I didn't specify a time frame.  In fact, if you look at my first post in this thread, you will notice that was what I was complaining about with regards to Schiff & Molyneux; that they predict the death of the fiat dollar, but don't actually provide a time frame.

Quote
The dollar has been running along without too much commotion for the last 223 years.
No, it has not.  The US dollar, as a national paper currency, has only existed since 1913; and finally dropped the pretense of a gold standard in 1971.  Prior to 1913, a dollar referred to a troy ounce of silver, because it was a mispronuncation of the thaler.  The association of this particular volume of silver and a standard unit of money was a matter of law prior to the Fractional Reserve Act of 1913.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention the devaluation in 1933, wherein the gold peg was changed from $20 per ounce to $35 per ounce, which was effectively a 45% 'haircut' on US soverign debt because paper currencies printed by nations are debt instruments themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler

Quote

 I'd bet on more of the same over the next 50 years: a stable dollar and increasing stock market.

Tell me again why "this time is different!"

It's not different, and that's the prediction.  The market value of the US Dollar has fallen 95% since 1913.  By what logic do you expect a stable dollar for the next 50 years?  That really would be different.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 04:50:42 PM by MoonShadow »

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2015, 05:13:08 PM »

It's obvious that the US dollar will destroy itself eventually.

How is this obvious?


Because all fiat currencies have a life cycle.
Quote
What indicates the US dollar will be "destroyed" in the next 100 years?
I didn't specify a time frame.  In fact, if you look at my first post in this thread, you will notice that was what I was complaining about with regards to Schiff & Molyneux; that they predict the death of the fiat dollar, but don't actually provide a time frame.

Quote
The dollar has been running along without too much commotion for the last 223 years.
No, it has not.  The US dollar, as a national paper currency, has only existed since 1913; and finally dropped the pretense of a gold standard in 1971.  Prior to 1913, a dollar referred to a troy ounce of silver, because it was a mispronuncation of the thaler.  The association of this particular volume of silver and a standard unit of money was a matter of law prior to the Fractional Reserve Act of 1913.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention the devaluation in 1933, wherein the gold peg was changed from $20 per ounce to $35 per ounce, which was effectively a 45% 'haircut' on US soverign debt because paper currencies printed by nations are debt instruments themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler

Quote

 I'd bet on more of the same over the next 50 years: a stable dollar and increasing stock market.

Tell me again why "this time is different!"

It's not different, and that's the prediction.  The market value of the US Dollar has fallen 95% since 1913.  By what logic do you expect a stable dollar for the next 50 years?  That really would be different.

So we should expect around 3.3% annual inflation as has been the case since 1913?  Since 1971 the inflation rate has averaged 4.1% with a heavy front loading in the 70s and early 80s.  Since 1985 the inflation rate has been 2.7%.

None of those rates worry me.

I'd much rather have my money denominated in USD than anything else including Bitcoin or any commodity (which have dropped significantly recently in case you haven't been paying attention).





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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2015, 05:26:08 PM »
Hmmm?  Interesting stuff.   The lowest I saw gas in the us was 19 cents.   I call that a dollar collapse.   Look around it is happening everyday.   Frog in a pot.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2015, 05:34:41 PM »
So we should expect around 3.3% annual inflation as has been the case since 1913?  Since 1971 the inflation rate has averaged 4.1% with a heavy front loading in the 70s and early 80s.  Since 1985 the inflation rate has been 2.7%.

None of those rates worry me.

I never claimed I was worried, either.  It could take centuries before the US dollar fails, or not.

Quote

I'd much rather have my money denominated in USD than anything else including Bitcoin or any commodity (which have dropped significantly recently in case you haven't been paying attention).


Okay.  I wasn't trying to convince you of anything.

And yes, I do track the exchange value of Bitcoin.  It went up somewhat during the peak of the Greek crisis, and has pulled back somewhat. 

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2015, 05:37:50 PM »
Really?  Why does inflation even matter as long as investments offer a good real return? 

The Dow was less than 1211 at the end of 1985. Today it's 17,419. 14.4x

Gas price was about $1 in '85. Now it's about $2.30.

Who cares?


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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2015, 05:41:48 PM »
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/03/why-we-are-not-really-all-doomed/


Yeah, I'm not a doomer.  I'm just a student of history.  When I was a child, my father told me that there have been those preaching the near term destruction of the economy/currency/government/whatever for as long as he had been alive, and that it was a very poor way to invest.  On the other hand, he also taught me to prepare for strangeness, because it did happen occasionally.  MMM noted in that article that it's a bit crazy to buy gold or bullets as an investment, which it is.  But one doesn't buy gold or bullets as an investment, but as a hedge.  Both are insurance against different kinds of crisis.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2015, 05:47:13 PM »
Really?  Why does inflation even matter as long as investments offer a good real return? 


Inflation matters whether it matters to you or not.  It eats away at your gains, and is the primary reason that simply saving in bank CD's are no longer a viable savings method.  It encourages risk taking with the pursuit of gains, even during portions of the business cycle when prudence would have been the wiser method.  It promotes increasing velocity of the currency, which further undermines the buying power of the currency, if only temporarily.  It functions in the market as a tax on savers, and the market responds this way.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2015, 05:47:37 PM »
To paraphrase Churchill: The U.S. dollar is the worst form of currency, except for all the others.


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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2015, 05:56:18 PM »
The primary reason savings accounts and CDs are not good vehicles now is low interest rates not high inflation. Inflation has been running less than 2% recently.

I'd rather respond to the market situation than worry about it. Get your 3% mortgages while you can!


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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2015, 05:58:11 PM »
To paraphrase Churchill: The U.S. dollar is the worst form of currency, except for all the others.

Except that paraphrase doesn't work with currencies as it does with governments.  While it's true that, historicly speaking, the US dollar is a very fine currency to be stuck with, that might not always be true.  There have been roughly 3700 fiat currencies that have existed in the past, that no longer hold a retail trade value, and are no longer regarded as legal tender anywhere on Earth.  Collectively, fiat currencies have an average lifespan of about 37 years, with the record oldest being about 225 years iirc.  Certainly, the geeks at the Federal Reserve are aware of this as well, and know a bit more about how to avoid the death of a currency than those who came before, so the US dollar could live for a lot longer yet then myself.  But mild inflation is not how currencies die.  Unlike governments, which are a monopoly by nature, currencies actually compete with one another.  The US Dollar is the international reserve currency because it's the market leader; with the longest working history and largest economic base, as well as a huge military to 'defend' it internationally.  But this is not certain to continue forever, nor certain to continue for even your lifetime.  If the yuan takes over as the international reserve currency in another decade, how would that affect your portfolio?  That isn't an idle question, because it's exactly what the Chinese government would like to do.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2015, 06:03:31 PM »
The primary reason savings accounts and CDs are not good vehicles now is low interest rates not high inflation. Inflation has been running less than 2% recently.

Yes, and the prime rate is also controlled by the Federal Reserve.  It's a monetary policy called suppression, and it happened after WW2 as well.  It may not be deliberate, but it doesn't matter if it is or not, the effects are the same.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2015, 06:51:04 PM »
Is this time different?

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/News/2011/1/Pages/IsThisTimeDifferentfortheDollar.aspx


"According to a study of 775 fiat currencies by DollarDaze.org, there is no historical precedence for a fiat currency that has succeeded in holding its value. Twenty percent failed through hyperinflation, 21% were destroyed by war, 12% destroyed by independence, 24% were monetarily reformed, and 23% are still in circulation approaching one of the other outcomes.

The average life expectancy for a fiat currency is 27 years, with the shortest life span being one month. Founded in 1694, the British pound Sterling is the oldest fiat currency in existence. At a ripe old age of 317 years it must be considered a highly successful fiat currency. However, success is relative. The British pound was defined as 12 ounces of silver, so it's worth less than 1/200 or 0.5% of its original value. In other words, the most successful long standing currency in existence has lost 99.5% of its value.

Given the undeniable track record of currencies, it is clear that on a long enough timeline the survival rate of all fiat currencies drops to zero. Fiat currency bulls will probably not argue with this fact, but the remaining argument to hold fiat cash is that the decline of fiat currencies is manageable to such an extent that the loss in purchasing power will have a minimal or unnoticeable impact."

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2015, 07:18:22 PM »
Let's see.

1/200th over 317 years is an average rate of 1.7%.

The expectation of zero inflation seems to be the problem here not the "debasement" of fiat currencies.

Keep your $$$ in investments not buried in your backyard and you will do fine.


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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2015, 09:28:42 PM »
Let's see.

1/200th over 317 years is an average rate of 1.7%.

That's actually misleading, because the Pound was on a metal standard up until the 1930's.  Most of the devaluation that you see occurred in the last century.

Quote
The expectation of zero inflation seems to be the problem here not the "debasement" of fiat currencies.

Keep your $$$ in investments not buried in your backyard and you will do fine.

I'm sure I'll do fine regardless.  Part of my total portfolio actually is my backyard.  I own 13 acres, 11 of which is mature timberland.  The oak tree that sits next to my front drive is worth about $3k alone, and the market value grows with it.  Not counting those with timber value, my woodlot produces about 5 cords of firewood per year, while a typical winter here would only require 4.  There is more than one way to mitigate currency risks, and I'll be the first to say that owning gold is the least wise of many methods.  That said, if you have no current plan to deal with a currency crisis, should it occur, a bit of gold is a fine stopgap.

However, if I ever do sell that oak tree in the front yard, my teenaged daughter is going to have a fit.  It's her favorite spot to sit and read on a sunny day.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2015, 10:04:05 PM »
Really?  Why does inflation even matter as long as investments offer a good real return? 

The Dow was less than 1211 at the end of 1985. Today it's 17,419. 14.4x

Gas price was about $1 in '85. Now it's about $2.30.

Who cares?
Yeah,  I hadn't thought about that.  It now cost 14 times more to buy the same average you could buy just 30 year ago.  And they pay virtually no dividends (return).   Wow, that is a dramatic decrease in dollar buying power. 

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 10:09:37 PM »
MoonShadow: So if your timeline is infinity, all currencies, both fiat and non-fiat fail. So, a currency's status as fiat or non-fiat doesn't determine the ability to withstand time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Ancient Rome's and Ancient Greece's currency also based on an ability to pull shiny metal out of the ground, (in other words non-fiat)? But they still fell apart, even though they never created a paper-based (or 'bullshit-based', to paraphrase those who love the gold standard) currency? So, why did their societies and/or currencies fall then if not due to currency debasement?

Where in the statistics does it give the average life expectancy of non-fiat currencies?

Also, do you statistics weight all currencies equally, or based on the size of the economy? So, if the Argentine Peso, Zimbabwe Dollar and Libyan Rial are all equally weighted as the USD and they fail while the USD hold up, is it only a matter of time until the USD fails also, statistically speaking?

And if the gold standard was so great, why did 100% of all developed nations leave the gold standard? Answer: Because the growth of your money supply shouldn't depend on your ability to pull shiny metal out of the ground. To wit: William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech was a rally cry for the common man AGAINST the banking class. Unfortuantely, most people who use the term 'fiat-currency' have never heard of either William Jennings Bryan or his speech. Shame on them.

And, while I'm at it: as long as the Chinese Yuan isn't freely convertible, it only floats in a toilet. Yes, that's right. You cannot take Yuan out of the country (it's illegal). All Chinese Yuan transactions are controlled by the Chinese government (not their banks). Any entity in China (corporation, individual, etc) cannot convert/export more than $50,000 USD/year. So, no, their currency won't become a reserve currency as long as these restrictions are in place, and it looks like they will be in place for awhile.

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2015, 10:50:59 PM »
Is this time different?

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/News/2011/1/Pages/IsThisTimeDifferentfortheDollar.aspx


"The average life expectancy for a fiat currency is 27 years, with the shortest life span being one month. Founded in 1694, the British pound Sterling is the oldest fiat currency in existence. At a ripe old age of 317 years it must be considered a highly successful fiat currency. However, success is relative. The British pound was defined as 12 ounces of silver, so it's worth less than 1/200 or 0.5% of its original value. In other words, the most successful long standing currency in existence has lost 99.5% of its value."

uhh.... no.

Whoever is providing you with this information is doing you a great disservice, if not outright lying in order to promote their agenda. The GBP hasn't been a 'fiat-currency' for 317 years. It was based on the gold standard like all other major currencies until somewhere in the 1930's. So, by this measure it has only been a fiat-currency for around 85 years, the same amount of time that the USD has been a fiat-currency.

Now, in order to measure the 'success' of this fiat-currency, you need to be able to compare a few values:

1) What else could you buy for your one pound/12 ounces of silver in 1694? How many hours of labor to earn one pound? How many acres of land? How many ounces of peppercorns? How many politicians (ok, just joking, couldn't resist)?

2) How many ounces of silver would one pound buy in 1931 when the UK left the gold standard? What! A debasement! But that only happens to fiat-currencies!!! How many hours of labor to earn one pound? How many acres could you buy with that one pound? How many ounces of peppercorns (wait? They got cheaper? So that means the value of a pound increased over 237 years!?! How did that happen?) How many politicians (hee, hee, I did it again!)?

3) And finally today, how many ounces of silver will one pound buy today? How many hours of labor? How many acres can you buy with that one pound? How many ounces of peppercorn? How many politicians (that joke will never get old)? Thus, you can see that as Einstein said best, all values are relative. So, what does it matter how many ounces of shiny metal you can buy with a unit of currency?

Hacks such as Chris Mack should have no place in modern discourse, but, alas, the internet allows just anyone to print, free of charge. He states how the USD has been debased since leaving the gold standard 1971 (sic). But, how would the numbers have looked if we had done the calculation in 1999 when gold was $225 an ounce? Strangely, he doesn't mention this. Why not? What if gold reverts back to $225/ounce in 2025? Who will be around to ask him for a Mea Culpa?

MoonShadow

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Re: Why The US Dollar Will Collapse | Peter Schiff and Stefan Molyneux
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2015, 11:15:00 PM »
MoonShadow: So if your timeline is infinity, all currencies, both fiat and non-fiat fail. So, a currency's status as fiat or non-fiat doesn't determine the ability to withstand time.

By non-fiat currencies, you mean what exactly?  The only true non-fiat currencies that I can think of were all commodity monies, and as far as I know, none have actually 'failed' in any compariable sense.  We still use gold, silver & copper.  The non-monetary uses of these metals can over shadow their historic monetary uses, but they all still have a market/monetary value.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Ancient Rome's and Ancient Greece's currency also based on an ability to pull shiny metal out of the ground, (in other words non-fiat)? But they still fell apart, even though they never created a paper-based (or 'bullshit-based', to paraphrase those who love the gold standard) currency? So, why did their societies and/or currencies fall then if not due to currency debasement?

Well, they never used paper, but the Roman Empire did use a fiat currency.  Their problem was that they had a habit of reminting their silver coins by adding in a bit of base metals, thus slowly reducing the silver content.  They created their fiat currency over the period of about 100 years, instead of an offical edict.  But that is also where we get the term 'debasement' from to begin with.  Coin 'clipping' was also a problem, and that is why modern coins that were historicly silver had the 'reeding' along the edge, to highlight clipping.

But also, the Romans had a couple of 'natural' monies that competed with the dinar openly.  One was simply sea salt, which was typically given to soldiers as part of their regular pay, and is where we get the term 'salary' from.  Also indirectly, the insult "he's not worth his salt".  Another natural currency that was widely used alongside the dinar was simple iron nails, which to this very day (in the US) are 'sized' by their pre-empire trade value to the dinar.  This is not only where we get the term in the US of 'penny' sizes (dinars became pence, pence became pennies in English) as well as the root reason that 'penny' sizes of nails are denoted by the lower case "d" as their unit size.

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Where in the statistics does it give the average life expectancy of non-fiat currencies?
See above.  I'm not sure that is a meaningful question.  A pre-empire silver dinar would still have it's melt value today, even if it didn't have any historical or collector value.  Just as a chest full of spanish dubloons would have great value today, if pulled up from a shipwreck.  In contrast, a million dollar bill from Zimbabwe that I keep in my desk only has whatever value I give it for it's pretty picture.

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Also, do you statistics weight all currencies equally, or based on the size of the economy?


I didn't do those stats, but no. 

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So, if the Argentine Peso, Zimbabwe Dollar and Libyan Rial are all equally weighted as the USD and they fail while the USD hold up, is it only a matter of time until the USD fails also, statistically speaking?

Draw your own conclusions, but I'm pretty much of the opinion that, yes, all fiat currencies fail eventually.

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And if the gold standard was so great, why did 100% of all developed nations leave the gold standard? Answer: Because the growth of your money supply shouldn't depend on your ability to pull shiny metal out of the ground.

Nearly all of the world's nations abandoned or devalued their gold standards following the first world war or during the Great Depression, due to the massive debts they incurred.  The supply of money is not an issue for an economy, because the market value of the gold changes accordingly; but the debt service under the constraints of a gold standard became impossible for many nations.  Outright abandonment of the gold standard was basicly a national bankruptcy without a court rulling.
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To wit: William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech was a rally cry for the common man AGAINST the banking class. Unfortuantely, most people who use the term 'fiat-currency' have never heard of either William Jennings Bryan or his speech. Shame on them.


Yes, I am aware of him.  I am also aware that so many here consider gold to be a monetary relic.  We might yet see a return to some kind of commodity backed standard in our lifetimes, though.  Who knows.

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And, while I'm at it: as long as the Chinese Yuan isn't freely convertible, it only floats in a toilet. Yes, that's right. You cannot take Yuan out of the country (it's illegal). All Chinese Yuan transactions are controlled by the Chinese government (not their banks). Any entity in China (corporation, individual, etc) cannot convert/export more than $50,000 USD/year. So, no, their currency won't become a reserve currency as long as these restrictions are in place, and it looks like they will be in place for awhile.

Those are just laws.  Laws can change.