Author Topic: Why I'm not against tariffs.  (Read 6659 times)

Bateaux

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Why I'm not against tariffs.
« on: July 02, 2018, 06:05:04 AM »
Tariffs imposed by Trump have been rattling Wall Street lately.   The international companies are warning of huge price increases for imported and domestic goods.  While I believe price increases and inflation will follow that doesn't really scare me.  I think we may all get to be a bit more Mustacian along the way.  The tariffs could be just the trigger that breaks the hyper consumption economy cycle.  Cheap foreign goods take a lot of the pain out of unneeded purchases.  A lot of this is cheap junk that costs less to purchase initially but, lacking true quality breaks down and ends up in the trash heap.  If prices increase 10 or 20 percent then consumption may decrease by 10 or 20 percent as well.   Maybe instead of paying more the consumer decides just to go without.  This would make for a much nicer world.  It could mean 10 to 20 percent less polution.  Maybe 10 to 20 percent less cars on the road.  Maybe instead of working harder to buy more stuff we spend 10 to 20 percent more of our time with friends and family.  Maybe we spend 10 to 20 percent more time reading a book, hiking a trail or riding our bikes.  Just some thoughts on the positives of a trade war.

jlcnuke

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 06:14:56 AM »
I think you're naive if you think prices going up is going to result in the changes you mention. People aren't going to drive less because cars cost more new, there will just be more people buying used, older, less fuel efficient and higher emission vehicles instead. People aren't going to work less, they'll actually probably try to work more so they can continue to keep up with the Jones' (who will be working more to keep up their appearances too).

The people on fixed lower incomes, and those with just low incomes to begin with, will be hit hardest as they're the ones most likely to have already cut out everything they thought they could afford to do without from their budget, and their money won't even go that far anymore.

There are some winners in a trade war (notably the few rich people who own companies that lose competition or have their competition severely ham-stringed by the trade war), but it's not "the little people"...

Bateaux

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 06:33:00 AM »
I think you're naive if you think prices going up is going to result in the changes you mention. People aren't going to drive less because cars cost more new, there will just be more people buying used, older, less fuel efficient and higher emission vehicles instead. People aren't going to work less, they'll actually probably try to work more so they can continue to keep up with the Jones' (who will be working more to keep up their appearances too).

The people on fixed lower incomes, and those with just low incomes to begin with, will be hit hardest as they're the ones most likely to have already cut out everything they thought they could afford to do without from their budget, and their money won't even go that far anymore.

There are some winners in a trade war (notably the few rich people who own companies that lose competition or have their competition severely ham-stringed by the trade war), but it's not "the little people"...

I'm sure some will work themselves even harder to afford what they don't actually need.   What I forsee is greater efficiency gains.  If sales numbers drop producers must innovative and provide better products or lower their prices to encourage the consumer. 

Bateaux

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 06:37:03 AM »
Tariffs are a consumption tax.  The less you consume goods and services the lesser the impact of the tax on you personally.   I would much prefer higher consumption taxes rather than income taxes.

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 07:31:42 AM »
I'm anti tariff but if countries are reducing US good imports to favor their own then f them, we do the same. Can't have the best of both worlds. China has always pissed me off in that regard but no politician has ever wanted to address it.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 07:36:16 AM »
Why you should be against steel and aluminum tariffs: because finished products don't have the tariff. That is, if you offshore your manufacturing operations you can still bring in your steel and aluminum widgets without these new tariffs. That's insane. Steel is a commodity, finished products are not (necessarily). There is more value in making the finished product, you do not want to discourage that.

TwoWorlds

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 07:41:09 AM »
A no Tariff world sounds good to me!

TheWifeHalf

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 09:05:26 AM »
There was an interview on tv yesterday with a guy, probably in his 60's, who owns the only company in the US that makes nails.  He said cheaper nails from China will put him out of business.  I do not doubt this will happen to many businesses because like he said, people will just buy the cheaper Chinese nails.

He said the Chinese nails are not of the quality his nails are. I say, if you're building a house, do it before Friday. I personally would not want a house built with inferior nails.

BTDretire

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 09:43:10 AM »
My thoughts,
  We have been in a trade war for many years.
The problem is, we forgot to fight, just put up the white flag.
 I think Trump is just in a negotiation to get the tarrifs against us reduced.
 It may cause temporary disruption of the norm, but we are still the big dog
and may be able to fix this.
The economy is good, there is never a better time to attack the unfair tarriffs against us.

BookLoverL

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 10:40:20 AM »
I'm not in the US, but (generally speaking) I actually like the idea of tariffs. The problem with complete freedom of capital to move around the world is that there is not the same freedom of movement for labour - and what's more, there never will be, because it isn't only laws that keep people in place, but also emotional ties to their homes and families. Some people are just less willing to move than others.

Freedom of capital without freedom of labour results in most of the capital moving gradually towards places that are friendlier to large business, leaving less jobs for the people still in the old place, who mostly don't want to move to the place where the new factory will be. And this results in a race to the bottom for labour regulations as places try to attract big business back to their area.

A sensible, non-extreme implementation of tariffs or some other kind of barrier to foreign trade means that certain home industries can be protected, and that the jobs needed for providing that industry to country X will mostly be located in country X. The best industries to put the tariffs in place for would be ones for which the country has high demand for, and is capable of meeting that demand itself resource-wise. That ensures the country stays relatively self-sufficient at meeting its high demand, which helps if there's a war or something that interferes with global trade routes. The best industries to have no tariffs for would be relatively exotic goods that wouldn't be commonly available in country X, and country X can then provide in return things which are commonly available there but not in country Y.

And if the tariff causes price increases which reduce demand, well, then, maybe it was consumerism causing people to buy that much of it in the first place. There will still be more jobs in the country than there was, because all the suppliers who were able to supply it more cheaply were taking advantage of cheaper foreign labour, so if there's any demand at all, there will need to be at least 1 place making it in the country if demand is going to be met. If it turns out demand drops to zero because of price increases, then the item was probably completely unnecessary to start with.

The alternative to putting up trade barriers to protect home industries (which will also become necessary in the case of overwhelming automation reducing the number of jobs, if no laws are put in place to encourage employing people instead of robots) is to provide some kind of basic citizen's income, because otherwise you end up with a disgruntled working class who can't find the jobs they need, and that's how you end up with political unrest.

jim555

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 11:02:43 AM »
No one wins with tarrifs, period.  The Senate needs to step in and block the baffoon before he ruins world trade.

ayaparis

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 11:27:25 AM »
Tariffs are a consumption tax.  The less you consume goods and services the lesser the impact of the tax on you personally.   I would much prefer higher consumption taxes rather than income taxes.

I agree with this. Increases one's power on where to allocate their taxes.

Found this article interesting and some perspective: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/02/trumps-trade-critics-are-wrong-his-tariffs-could-bring-major-benefits-to-america.html

rbuck

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2018, 11:47:22 AM »
I am anti-tariff because I don't believe that the government should have any role in determining who people voluntary engage in commerce with. While I can think of arguments for tariffs this is a terrible idea. I have always been somewhat of a minimalist so the idea of people owning and buying less is appealing your argument basically is the about making people worse off in the long run.

To give you an example my Mom is on the cusp of retirement and has made some poor financial decisions but also has never had a good paying job. So she is looking at retirement in 2 years and has no savings and is expecting about $1,200/month before Medicare withholdings. An increase in cost of goods is going to make it very difficult for her to make ends meet.

Less stuff is a good think but needs to come from a change in values versus pricing poor people out of consumer purchases.

inline five

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2018, 12:16:20 PM »
I am anti-tariff because I don't believe that the government should have any role in determining who people voluntary engage in commerce with. While I can think of arguments for tariffs this is a terrible idea. I have always been somewhat of a minimalist so the idea of people owning and buying less is appealing your argument basically is the about making people worse off in the long run.

To give you an example my Mom is on the cusp of retirement and has made some poor financial decisions but also has never had a good paying job. So she is looking at retirement in 2 years and has no savings and is expecting about $1,200/month before Medicare withholdings. An increase in cost of goods is going to make it very difficult for her to make ends meet.

Less stuff is a good think but needs to come from a change in values versus pricing poor people out of consumer purchases.

That's a sad story and likely will be repeated throughout the country however unfortunately other countries do not share your values and the US has been locked out of several large markets which has led to jobs leaving the US.

The US can have zero tariffs but many other countries do, so what to do then? That's totally BS.

FIRE@50

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2018, 12:24:27 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

Telecaster

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 12:41:26 PM »
What I forsee is greater efficiency gains.  If sales numbers drop producers must innovative and provide better products or lower their prices to encourage the consumer.

Actually tariffs encourage the opposite.  If industries are protected from cheaper foreign competition, they have less incentive to become more efficient. 

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 12:48:36 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.

BookLoverL

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 12:50:04 PM »
What I forsee is greater efficiency gains.  If sales numbers drop producers must innovative and provide better products or lower their prices to encourage the consumer.

Actually tariffs encourage the opposite.  If industries are protected from cheaper foreign competition, they have less incentive to become more efficient. 

The problem with this is that under typical corporate business practices, "cheaper" and "efficient" often means "lower minimum wage" and "less worker rights", which encourages working conditions to be gradually worse in general, and the working class to be poorer compared to the CEO and salary classes. Efficiency is only good to a certain point. I for one wouldn't want to be working in the conditions from, say, the Victorian age.

Cookie78

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 12:54:14 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.

Hi. Canada here. Feeling much the same way.

The news I'm getting is that US started this tariff situation and that Canada is reacting with their own. Not the other way around as you are implying. Are you hearing something different?

FIRE@50

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 12:55:07 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.
Ford wasn't forced to do anything. They do not have to sell cars in China. Many other companies have chosen to not do business in that country.

Are you really taking Trump's statements at face value?

inline five

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2018, 01:06:54 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.

Hi. Canada here. Feeling much the same way.

The news I'm getting is that US started this tariff situation and that Canada is reacting with their own. Not the other way around as you are implying. Are you hearing something different?

Canada had existing tariffs on US goods. Trump wanted them gone, Canada politely said no and so retaliated with tariffs of our own. That's the cliff notes.

FIRE@50

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2018, 01:08:32 PM »
Don't forget that Trump declared Canada a national security threat to justify it.

inline five

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2018, 01:09:07 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.
Ford wasn't forced to do anything. They do not have to sell cars in China. Many other companies have chosen to not do business in that country.

Are you really taking Trump's statements at face value?

Fine. Then no Chinese company can do business here without technology transfer (that they stole) and must build everything they sell here.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Why are you guys so fine with rolling over? You call Trump supporters ignorant, see how ignorant you are when your job goes away because of an unfair playing field.

inline five

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2018, 01:09:37 PM »
Don't forget that Trump declared Canada a national security threat to justify it.

I think he had to in order to implement them. Per US law.

But, your sound bite makes him look stupid so it will of course be the headline on CNN.

BTDretire

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2018, 01:22:05 PM »
No one wins with tarrifs, period.  The Senate needs to step in and block the baffoon before he ruins world trade.

  Not true, the countries that have tariffs on our products have won.
And if you can't give any credit to President Trump. you give some to other
leaders around the world that might decide to lower their tariffs so world trade is not ruined.
Trump does not want tariffs, he wants other countries to be fair with their tariffs and allow our products
to be able compete with their products.



jim555

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2018, 01:29:02 PM »
No one wins with tarrifs, period.  The Senate needs to step in and block the baffoon before he ruins world trade.

  Not true, the countries that have tariffs on our products have won.
And if you can't give any credit to President Trump. you give some to other
leaders around the world that might decide to lower their tariffs so world trade is not ruined.
Trump does not want tariffs, he wants other countries to be fair with their tariffs and allow our products
to be able compete with their products.
If you listen to him he is NOT about totally free world trade.  He wants protected industries.  He doesn't understand economics or trade.  He has just begun and these are not going away.  The markets are beginning to realize this now, that is why they are under pressure.

inline five

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2018, 01:40:24 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2018, 01:53:47 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

FIRE@50

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2018, 02:07:02 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.
Ford wasn't forced to do anything. They do not have to sell cars in China. Many other companies have chosen to not do business in that country.

Are you really taking Trump's statements at face value?

Fine. Then no Chinese company can do business here without technology transfer (that they stole) and must build everything they sell here.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Why are you guys so fine with rolling over? You call Trump supporters ignorant, see how ignorant you are when your job goes away because of an unfair playing field.

While I have no doubt that you have been campaigning against Canada's brutally unfair milk tariffs for many years, I can assure you that they are no threat to my job or my security.

BookLoverL

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2018, 02:10:26 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

Exactly, China have been following protectionist policies of various sorts for years. And they seem to be doing well out of it.

Free trade is one of those things that sounds nice in principle, but I don't think it works the way it's intended to unless a) the whole world has completely free trade, b) the different areas are starting from relatively equal conditions in terms of the size of the pool of resources they can offer, c) movement is actually completely free with almost the entire population willing to uproot their lives for work, d) worker's rights and minimum wage laws are identical everywhere. Without those things, some areas will develop subtle advantages and, since under the definition of free trade the disadvantaged areas aren't doing anything to prevent entirely foreign companies from selling their foreign-manufactured goods there, the disadvantaged areas will gradually lose jobs to the advantaged areas, and become more dependent on them. Meanwhile, the money will flow to whichever country the person who owns the companies lives in/usually buys stuff from/pays tax in, which might be a third completely different area.

I don't think anybody ought to go full protectionist/isolationist and ban foreign imports altogether or anything like that. I just think that some combination of sensibly-set non-zero tariffs, subsidies for certain desirable industries, and other protectionist measures, are necessary to maintain the independence of a country and the health of its job market.

(As to why tariffs might be preferable to subsidies, if you subsidise something too much you can end up with far more than you actually want. Back when the EU was the EEA, subsidies for farms led to Butter Mountains and Milk Lakes because the EU bought all the overproduced goods. If you have a tariff instead, you're not going to end up with that problem. So I think subsidies are better for things which you actually WANT there to be more of than the general public might demand (or be able to demand) on the open market, like green energy or public transport.)

Johnez

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2018, 02:11:39 PM »
The thing about Trump is he seems to be addressing actual issues with trade. What I'm worried about though is he seems to be turning the entire world against us. I don't know if there's a way to win a trade war, but I'm afraid of what happens when all these countries he's calling out decide they don't want to play nice with us anymore and they all single us out. China, Canada, Mexico, Europe, with their tariff cannons turned toward us seems like a way to go down in flames.

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2018, 02:16:35 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.
Ford wasn't forced to do anything. They do not have to sell cars in China. Many other companies have chosen to not do business in that country.

Are you really taking Trump's statements at face value?

Fine. Then no Chinese company can do business here without technology transfer (that they stole) and must build everything they sell here.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Why are you guys so fine with rolling over? You call Trump supporters ignorant, see how ignorant you are when your job goes away because of an unfair playing field.

While I have no doubt that you have been campaigning against Canada's brutally unfair milk tariffs for many years, I can assure you that they are no threat to my job or my security.
Well you made this about you. It's not. It's about all the ignorant Trump voters like my buddy who is a dairy farmer in WI.

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2018, 02:24:35 PM »
The thing about Trump is he seems to be addressing actual issues with trade. What I'm worried about though is he seems to be turning the entire world against us. I don't know if there's a way to win a trade war, but I'm afraid of what happens when all these countries he's calling out decide they don't want to play nice with us anymore and they all single us out. China, Canada, Mexico, Europe, with their tariff cannons turned toward us seems like a way to go down in flames.

I totally agreee. The main culprit right now is China. What he should've done is rally the world against them and cut them off at their knees. No more Chinese imports until they become an open and free society. Establish a supply chain and manufacturing in various places such as the Midwest, using planned communities like China does. Cheap land and labor.

The wealth that is contained in China is insane. The crazy thing is they are using it to buy up land and property here in the states, in places like CA, WA, TX, etc.

The whole thing is messed up, we need to rip the bandaid off and start anew.

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2018, 02:31:05 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

In a free trade environment the US would produce what it was good at and Canada would do the same. Instead, they've choose protect certain industries. We can't impose a dairy tariff on Canada because it would be stupid because we are a net exporter, so instead he went after something else. How he came to that conclusion I don't care as long as it gets Canada to drop their tariffs.

Ever bought Cheese in Canada? It's crazy expensive. 2.5x-3x as much as the US. Maybe their citizens want cheap cheese?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 02:32:45 PM by inline five »

jlcnuke

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2018, 03:14:17 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

In a free trade environment the US would produce what it was good at and Canada would do the same. Instead, they've choose protect certain industries. We can't impose a dairy tariff on Canada because it would be stupid because we are a net exporter, so instead he went after something else. How he came to that conclusion I don't care as long as it gets Canada to drop their tariffs.

Ever bought Cheese in Canada? It's crazy expensive. 2.5x-3x as much as the US. Maybe their citizens want cheap cheese?

Yep, Canada has, over the years, used tariffs to protect certain industries. Guess what? EVERY COUNTRY does (the US included, which you seem to be forgetting everytime you mention that some other country has tariffs on US stuff without bothering to consider the massive amounts of tariffs we have on stuff from all those countries). The difference is that the rest of the world didn't have a leader recently decide that they're idea of what's fair or not is the only thing that matters and thus try to bully the rest of the world into giving up the current equilibrium in world trade in favor of a policy that's bad for everyone but the U.S.

We haven't been tariff free in the lifetime of anyone living. We have, however, had small, moderate changes in tariff policies done after careful negotiations and with consideration of the potential downsides... like the rest of the world... until our current administration decided that "trade wars are easy to win" (contrary to the massive amount of evidence showing that no one has ever won a trade war) and blew all that up.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2018, 03:23:06 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

MasterStache

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2018, 03:55:53 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

In a free trade environment the US would produce what it was good at and Canada would do the same. Instead, they've choose protect certain industries. We can't impose a dairy tariff on Canada because it would be stupid because we are a net exporter, so instead he went after something else. How he came to that conclusion I don't care as long as it gets Canada to drop their tariffs.

Ever bought Cheese in Canada? It's crazy expensive. 2.5x-3x as much as the US. Maybe their citizens want cheap cheese?

Well, Trump balked at a golden opportunity to allow US dairy farmers to increase exports to Canada with zero tariffs for the next 20 years when he pulled out of the TPP. Shame as 10 other countries jumped at the chance. One might wonder how dairy farmers could still support him.

But no worries, high tariffs in agriculture are quite common. The US has a 350% tariff on some tobacco products and a 132% tariff on a peanut variety.

MasterStache

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2018, 05:35:57 PM »
Tariffs imposed by Trump have been rattling Wall Street lately.   The international companies are warning of huge price increases for imported and domestic goods.  While I believe price increases and inflation will follow that doesn't really scare me.  I think we may all get to be a bit more Mustacian along the way.  The tariffs could be just the trigger that breaks the hyper consumption economy cycle.  Cheap foreign goods take a lot of the pain out of unneeded purchases.  A lot of this is cheap junk that costs less to purchase initially but, lacking true quality breaks down and ends up in the trash heap.  If prices increase 10 or 20 percent then consumption may decrease by 10 or 20 percent as well.   Maybe instead of paying more the consumer decides just to go without.  This would make for a much nicer world.  It could mean 10 to 20 percent less polution.  Maybe 10 to 20 percent less cars on the road.  Maybe instead of working harder to buy more stuff we spend 10 to 20 percent more of our time with friends and family.  Maybe we spend 10 to 20 percent more time reading a book, hiking a trail or riding our bikes.  Just some thoughts on the positives of a trade war.

Man in a perfect world I would right there with you. But we don't live in a perfect world. And our country in particular has an outrageous spending problem. It's not going to simply go away nor would we even chip away at it by raising the price of goods and service. People will lose jobs, money, houses, the market will suffer etc. etc. Almost like saying a housing bubble is good because it will get folks to stop buying uber expensive gigantic homes. Except it doesn't.

bwall

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2018, 06:01:22 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

Really? NAFTA has been in force now for 25 years, but Canadian dairy tariffs are still in place.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-canada-dairy/562508/

Don't get me wrong: T.rump doesn't know s*** from shinola, but it doesn't mean he's wrong here.

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2018, 06:06:23 PM »
The US has lots of tariffs  on imported goods.   A tariff on Canadian softwood lumber has been in place for a long time.  Just the first that comes to mind.

NAFTA is the agreement that regulates all this between the three partners. Including tariffs.   It's not like they appeared out of the blue.

The US has a net trade surplus with Canada, so you are not going broke because of trade with us.  Although trade with you is not doing us as much good, since we have a net deficit.  Although if your president keeps on imposing tariffs, we won't be buying as much from you because we won't have the money.

I read someplace (feel free to search) that part of what made the Depression so bad was that countries started doing all sorts of protectionist things, so trade plummeted.  The easiest way to stop the inflow of cheap stuff from low-cost labour countries is to let the price of transportation go up - which means stop trying to maintain cheap oil.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2018, 06:14:59 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

Really? NAFTA has been in force now for 25 years, but Canadian dairy tariffs are still in place.

Yes, it's a carve out in the original language. I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure it must be this part:


7) b) with respect to such dairy, poultry and egg goods that are qualifying goods,
either Party may adopt or maintain a prohibition or restriction or a customs
duty on the importation of such good consistent with its rights and
obligations under the GATT.

North American Free Trade Agreement

Shinplaster

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2018, 06:51:06 PM »

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

Growth hormones (BST, rBGH) in dairy products (allowed in the US, not allowed in Canada) is a change we can do without thanks.






meghan88

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2018, 07:49:00 PM »
A few random thoughts:

Countries don't have principles:  They have interests.

The wealthier countries will always be importing stuff from the less-wealthy countries.

An advanced knowledge-based economy still needs raw materials, food, cheap stuff, etc., all produced and processed by people who generally make less $ in less-wealthy countries.

Countries like Canada, with a lot of natural resources and sparse population, have been a good producer of raw materials, water and electricity for the U.S.

The next few decades will be interesting.

Dabnasty

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2018, 07:55:44 PM »

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

Growth hormones (BST, rBGH) in dairy products (allowed in the US, not allowed in Canada) is a change we can do without thanks.

Growth Hormone does have a serious downside of reducing animal well being, something that could be potentially improved with better technology. But there's little evidence that milk produced with hormones is harmful to human health. There's also significant environmental benefit to using it. The number of cows needed to produce the same amount of milk is reduced by 15.7%*

Unfortunately, the increased production is likely to lead as much to increased consumption as it does to decreased environmental impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_somatotropin

If you're against the use of hormones for the sake of animal welfare, I can't argue with that. But the impacts of raising 18.6% more cattle will also effect human welfare in the near future, or in some cases, currently.


*15.7% is based on a single study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2442129/ but increased yield should be relatively easy to measure.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 07:59:48 PM by Dabnasty »

PDXTabs

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2018, 10:07:22 PM »
I quickly scanned through the years and I saw a negative balance for every year between now and 1985.

If you don't count services, that is true.


U.S.-Canada Trade Facts

U.S. goods and services trade with Canada totaled an estimated $673.9 billion in 2017. Exports were $341.2 billion; imports were $332.8 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade surplus with Canada was $8.4 billion in 2017.


ustr.gov

bwall

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2018, 04:33:16 AM »
The US has lots of tariffs  on imported goods.   A tariff on Canadian softwood lumber has been in place for a long time.  Just the first that comes to mind.

"The heart of the dispute is the claim that the Canadian lumber industry is unfairly subsidized by federal and provincial governments, as most timber in Canada is owned by the provincial governments."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute

As an American consumer, I'm thankful that the Canadian government is willing to dump its softwood lumber in our market.

If I were a Canadian taxpayer, I would be livid that instead of having money go to my government, it is instead going to the American government in the form of price-corrective tariffs.  In other words, if the Canadian provinces raise their fees, they collect more money as well as eliminating the American argument for tariffs on lumber.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:57:38 AM by bwall »

scottish

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2018, 03:17:54 PM »
China has dumped steel for many years. They have subsidized it immensely with significant oversupply, and waived any sort of environmental concerns making US steel non-competitive. Prior to that the US government subsidized the industry overseas in Asia and Europe to "help them" rebuild. We are idiots, we try to be nice but just end up getting kicked in the stomach. Seriously WTF.

I am completely 100% okay going after countries that are dumping. How much dumping has Canada and Iceland been up to lately?

Canada caps imports of US dairy products using a 270% tariff over a cap in order to protect their own farmers.

Which we agreed to when we signed NAFTA.

Really? NAFTA has been in force now for 25 years, but Canadian dairy tariffs are still in place.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-canada-dairy/562508/

Don't get me wrong: T.rump doesn't know s*** from shinola, but it doesn't mean he's wrong here.

Canadian consumers would benefit from a change.

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2018, 03:59:08 PM »

We want good cheese, not that American velveeta stuff.   Eh.

Better prices would be good though.

I doubt they would send us their good stuff*.  Save it for the home market.  And just around here we have Oka, St. Albert, Balderson, and a new one near Lancaster . . .

* I was not surprised Target tanked here.  The quality was terrible.  They made Walmart look good.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2018, 04:19:00 PM »
Tariffs are bad for the long term health of the entire economy. Almost the entire world came around to agreeing with that decades ago. Trump wants to move the US back to the 1950's and his ignorant supporters think that was a better time.

So what is your solution when other countries place tariffs on us and demand technology transfers in order to "do business" in their country?

Ford was forced to "partner" with a Chinese automaker and give them their hybrid technology in order to sell cars, that they must make there, in their market.

Trump stated in an ideal world he wants no tariffs.

Ignorant? Hmm.

1) So who owns the technology? Ford or the U.S. government or some collective "us" or "our"? If I invent a better mousetrap, should my government prohibit me from selling it overseas or claim my invention belongs to the collective?

2) Was Ford "forced" to sell their products in China? If so, is it wrong for governments to interfere with trade?

3) Is there a way to manufacture components in a country without revealing to anyone in that country how the components are made or what they do?

TempusFugit

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Re: Why I'm not against tariffs.
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »
Free trade is good. 
Trade should benefit all parties when conducted in an open and 'fair' manner.
Trade prevents wars.

That all being granted, there may come a point in a broken trading relationship where a 'do over' is required.  Have we reached that point with China?  I'm not educated or smart enough to know, but I grant that it is possible.

I don't think for a minute that Trump himself really has much of a coherent plan here, but I do recognize that China has abused the trading relationship by pervasive government sponsored theft of IP from companies that they force to 'partner' with domestic entities as the price for having any opportunity to market in China.  Once they have stolen the IP, they kick out the foreign company and just make the product themselves.     

Trade is such a complex welter of rules and interconnected relationships with manufacturing chains and raw materials vs manufactured products that I don't know who can really claim to understand how to fix big parts without disrupting the whole, at least for a time.  Perhaps a hard reset will help, I don't know.   But by playing bad cop, perhaps in a year or two, the next person can benefit by making deals that are better on the whole than the status quo. One step back for two steps forward and whatnot. 

It is very possible that China has more to fear from a disrupted trade relationship than do we.  For all of their vaunted economic might, they are facing some very serious issues with their economy, and that could lead to serious social upheaval. That may motivate them to move toward a more equitable trade relationship.