Author Topic: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?  (Read 27131 times)

Bucksandreds

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Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« on: April 09, 2016, 08:01:20 AM »
Assad, although a tyrant by western standards has the support of Christians, Shia, Alowites and secular Sunni Kurds. We support the orthodox Wahabbi Sunnis who by any definition hold values further from western values than Assad.

Here is an example of the west supported 'moderate' Syrian apposition.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/5707a89ec36188d1768b45d6/amp?client=safari#

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 09:01:47 AM »
The answer depends on what level of analysis you choose to pursue. In a crude first analysis, we are opposed to Assad because the Syrian government is allied with our enemies, Russia and Iran. Similarly, we helped overthrow the Qaddafi regime in Libya because it was historically adversarial to the West; in contrast, we were lukewarm at best to the protests against Mubarak, and eagerly embraced the counter-revolution against Morsy. If Sisi is able to retain control of Egypt in the long term, we will surely remain close allies with his government, just as we were to Mubarak's.

In that sense, the question of religious fundamentalism is beside the point. We do not especially care about the ideology of the non-state actors; we support governments which are our allies and oppose those which are our enemies (or are allied with our enemies). But a closer examination of our allies shows the connection of our foreign policy to Salafism and reveals the primary contradiction that has created this decades-long war that the West cannot win.

The governments that are supported by the West are not generally "governments" as we understand them in our own countries. They are more like rigidly hierarchical organized criminal enterprises. That's true of the governments we have installed in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it's also been true all over the world for many decades. It was the case in Iran, Indonesia, and the Philippines during the Pahlavi, Suharto, and Marcos years; it is true in Nigeria; it was true in the Latin American dictatorships and is true now in Honduras; it is true in Egypt. Ultimately, the United States wants two things: it wants access to the economic resources of poor countries and it wants to control their foreign policies. These objectives are broadly inimical to the interests of the residents of those countries, so regular democracy will never produce governments that the United States can work with. Instead, we are obliged to supply financial and military support to comprador criminals who run their countries on our behalf.

The local criminals' side of the bargain is that they are enabled by Western finance to loot their own countries with impunity. From top to bottom, government administration in these countries consists of the opportunistic extraction of rents in the form of bribery. At the lowest level, people are forced to bribe the police, the department of sanitation, the property tax collectors, etc. in order to either free themselves from harassment or to receive basic government services. And at every level from bottom to top, bribes are kicked up the chain of command until they reach the ministers of oil, state, defense, and of course the family of the president. So Africa's only female billionaire is the daughter of Jose Eduardo dos Santos; the Karzai family absconds to the West to enjoy their looted fortune; the Shah's family is still rich thirty seven years after they were exiled.

To say that this situation is resented would be quite an understatement. The Taliban has popular support (and is going to win the civil war) precisely because it abolished the corrupt system of foreign obeisance and rampant looting. The Islamic State in Iraq exists for the exact same reason, and so does Boko Haram. In decades past these revolutionaries might have been Communists (in some places, like the Naxal insurgency, they still are), but Communism was defeated by the West 25 years ago, and Salafism is an adequate ideological successor in Sunni areas. It is a mistake to ascribe Salafism to religious schools sponsored by the Saudi government, although they have possibly contributed to the unifying message of the ideology. Salafist insurgent groups are as opposed to the Saudi monarchy as they are to the other corrupt looters, and Saudi Arabia is now doing a delicate dance with the Islamic State which I doubt they can maintain. On the one hand, the Saudis are inclined to support IS in its fight against Iran. But on the other, Salafist insurgency is the single greatest existential threat to the regime. I expect that the Salafists will continue to win.

Remember that 20 years ago, al-Qaeda was like, 50 guys camping out in Sudan and dreaming big. Today there is a Sunni caliphate in the Levant with a standing army and mechanized infantry. The United States cannot win this war, but we also will never stop fighting it until we are firmly defeated, as we were in Vietnam (and as the Soviets were in Afghanistan, where they played the same role that we do today).

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 09:20:56 AM »
The answer depends on what level of analysis you choose to pursue. In a crude first analysis, we are opposed to Assad because the Syrian government is allied with our enemies, Russia and Iran. Similarly, we helped overthrow the Qaddafi regime in Libya because it was historically adversarial to the West; in contrast, we were lukewarm at best to the protests against Mubarak, and eagerly embraced the counter-revolution against Morsy. If Sisi is able to retain control of Egypt in the long term, we will surely remain close allies with his government, just as we were to Mubarak's.

In that sense, the question of religious fundamentalism is beside the point. We do not especially care about the ideology of the non-state actors; we support governments which are our allies and oppose those which are our enemies (or are allied with our enemies). But a closer examination of our allies shows the connection of our foreign policy to Salafism and reveals the primary contradiction that has created this decades-long war that the West cannot win.

The governments that are supported by the West are not generally "governments" as we understand them in our own countries. They are more like rigidly hierarchical organized criminal enterprises. That's true of the governments we have installed in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it's also been true all over the world for many decades. It was the case in Iran, Indonesia, and the Philippines during the Pahlavi, Suharto, and Marcos years; it is true in Nigeria; it was true in the Latin American dictatorships and is true now in Honduras; it is true in Egypt. Ultimately, the United States wants two things: it wants access to the economic resources of poor countries and it wants to control their foreign policies. These objectives are broadly inimical to the interests of the residents of those countries, so regular democracy will never produce governments that the United States can work with. Instead, we are obliged to supply financial and military support to comprador criminals who run their countries on our behalf.

The local criminals' side of the bargain is that they are enabled by Western finance to loot their own countries with impunity. From top to bottom, government administration in these countries consists of the opportunistic extraction of rents in the form of bribery. At the lowest level, people are forced to bribe the police, the department of sanitation, the property tax collectors, etc. in order to either free themselves from harassment or to receive basic government services. And at every level from bottom to top, bribes are kicked up the chain of command until they reach the ministers of oil, state, defense, and of course the family of the president. So Africa's only female billionaire is the daughter of Jose Eduardo dos Santos; the Karzai family absconds to the West to enjoy their looted fortune; the Shah's family is still rich thirty seven years after they were exiled.

To say that this situation is resented would be quite an understatement. The Taliban has popular support (and is going to win the civil war) precisely because it abolished the corrupt system of foreign obeisance and rampant looting. The Islamic State in Iraq exists for the exact same reason, and so does Boko Haram. In decades past these revolutionaries might have been Communists (in some places, like the Naxal insurgency, they still are), but Communism was defeated by the West 25 years ago, and Salafism is an adequate ideological successor in Sunni areas. It is a mistake to ascribe Salafism to religious schools sponsored by the Saudi government, although they have possibly contributed to the unifying message of the ideology. Salafist insurgent groups are as opposed to the Saudi monarchy as they are to the other corrupt looters, and Saudi Arabia is now doing a delicate dance with the Islamic State which I doubt they can maintain. On the one hand, the Saudis are inclined to support IS in its fight against Iran. But on the other, Salafist insurgency is the single greatest existential threat to the regime. I expect that the Salafists will continue to win.

Remember that 20 years ago, al-Qaeda was like, 50 guys camping out in Sudan and dreaming big. Today there is a Sunni caliphate in the Levant with a standing army and mechanized infantry. The United States cannot win this war, but we also will never stop fighting it until we are firmly defeated, as we were in Vietnam (and as the Soviets were in Afghanistan, where they played the same role that we do today).

Short term economic interests pale in comparison to long term religious/demographic trends. A group of people (low percentage but millions in numbers) hate and want to destroy us because we hold a different religious view than them.  They have already killed thousands of us and are attempting to kill many more. These murderers are directly and or tacitly supported by the governments of Saudi Arabia and Turkey.  It's time for the U.S.  to realize that our interests lie in the safety and continuation of western/secular civilization and that allegiances need to shift so as to accomplish that.  Iran has no desire to kill Americans. They have always just wanted us out of their affairs.  Russia Has a similar view as Iran.  They have a lot to offer and want to be a part of the picture. Sure we disagree with both on a lot but I struggle to find much of anything we have in common with Saudi Arabia and increasingly, Turkey.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 09:31:03 AM »
Short term economic interests pale in comparison to long term religious/demographic trends. A group of people (low percentage but millions in numbers) hate and want to destroy us because we hold a different religious view than them.  They have already killed thousands of us and are attempting to kill many more. These murderers are directly and or tacitly supported by the governments of Saudi Arabia and Turkey.  It's time for the U.S.  to realize that our interests lie in the safety and continuation of western/secular civilization and that allegiances need to shift so as to accomplish that.  Iran has no desire to kill Americans. They have always just wanted us out of their affairs.  Russia Has a similar view as Iran.  They have a lot to offer and want to be a part of the picture. Sure we disagree with both on a lot but I struggle to find much of anything we have in common with Saudi Arabia and increasingly, Turkey.
"Why doesn't the United States randomly ally with Russia and Iran to declare war on the Sunni race?" wow great idea let me just get Secy Kerry on the horn and tell him this smart plan

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 09:41:28 AM »
Short term economic interests pale in comparison to long term religious/demographic trends. A group of people (low percentage but millions in numbers) hate and want to destroy us because we hold a different religious view than them.  They have already killed thousands of us and are attempting to kill many more. These murderers are directly and or tacitly supported by the governments of Saudi Arabia and Turkey.  It's time for the U.S.  to realize that our interests lie in the safety and continuation of western/secular civilization and that allegiances need to shift so as to accomplish that.  Iran has no desire to kill Americans. They have always just wanted us out of their affairs.  Russia Has a similar view as Iran.  They have a lot to offer and want to be a part of the picture. Sure we disagree with both on a lot but I struggle to find much of anything we have in common with Saudi Arabia and increasingly, Turkey.
"Why doesn't the United States randomly ally with Russia and Iran to declare war on the Sunni race?" wow great idea let me just get Secy Kerry on the horn and tell him this smart plan

Sunni is not a race and the Sunni Kurds ally with Russia. For someone with the breadth of knowledge that it appeared that you had in the first post, your second post appears very uninformed/biased. Also the U.S. Should not fight a war with Saudi Arabia nor Turkey. The U.S. should stop acquiescing to their sectarian/radical religious political demands. I prefer no one on earth die from violence. Also what is "random" about switching alliances based off of geopolitical considerations?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 09:56:50 AM by Bucksandreds »

zephyr911

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 09:50:00 AM »
Assad, although a tyrant by western standards has the support of Christians, Shia, Alowites and secular Sunni Kurds. We support the orthodox Wahabbi Sunnis who by any definition hold values further from western values than Assad.

Here is an example of the west supported 'moderate' Syrian apposition.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/5707a89ec36188d1768b45d6/amp?client=safari#

Your linked article says Jaysh al-Islam is supported by "Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar". Which one of those represents the "West"? xD

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2016, 09:54:44 AM »
Assad, although a tyrant by western standards has the support of Christians, Shia, Alowites and secular Sunni Kurds. We support the orthodox Wahabbi Sunnis who by any definition hold values further from western values than Assad.

Here is an example of the west supported 'moderate' Syrian apposition.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/5707a89ec36188d1768b45d6/amp?client=safari#

Your linked article says Jaysh al-Islam is supported by "Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar". Which one of those represents the "West"? xD

The U.S. position in Syria is allied with Saudi Arabia and Turkey. We coordinate air strikes through Turkey and have trained other 'moderate' opposition fighters in both countries. Turkey has been shelling the Sunni Kurds in both Iraq and Syria. To pretend that this is Sunnis versus all others was a straw man argument by the above poster.  Sunnis are on both sides of the fighting. Secular politically Sunnis, stand against the wahabbis as should all of humanity.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 09:57:28 AM by Bucksandreds »

zephyr911

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 10:01:58 AM »
That does not establish that we support every group they do. Turkey is also doing little against ISIS, is currently the main route for foreign fighters to enter Syria (and doesn't care), and is quite possibly even actively supporting them to undermine Assad and weaken the Kurds, whose interests align more closely to our own than Turkey's do. Turkey has also used the war on ISIS as cover for a massive bombing campaign against the Kurds in both Syria and Iraq despite their being the only competent local force to have successfully checked and reversed the advance of ISIS.

Try again.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 10:15:12 AM »
Sunni is not a race and the Sunni Kurds ally with Russia. For someone with the breadth of knowledge that it appeared that you had in the first post, your second post appears very uninformed/biased. Also the U.S. Should not fight a war with Saudi Arabia nor Turkey. The U.S. should stop acquiescing to their sectarian/radical religious political demands. I prefer no one on earth die from violence. Also what is "random" about switching alliances based off of geopolitical considerations? Are you a Sunni, btw?
My point is that if the United States did abandon its alliances with Saudi Arabia and Turkey -- which is plausible! -- a few catastrophic things would happen very quickly.

In the Turkish case, I find it completely plausible that the West would decline to intervene for Turkey in the event of a conflict with Russia. It is true that Turkey is basically on the side of Islamic State, and moreover it is unlikely that the European countries are interested in a real fight with Russia on behalf of Turkey under any circumstances. But if NATO is just like, "eh, pass" on the defense of a member state, all of the new members in Eastern Europe will be gettin the flop sweats and the odds are that conflicts there will escalate, with ever more chances for a real war between Russia and the West. It is clear that NATO expansion over-reached and it's impossible to know how that will shake out but the prospects are very dangerous.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, it is also completely plausible that the traditional alliance will become less useful to the West. Saudi oil is already much less important than it used to be, and if the energy system does migrate away from fossil fuels it will become inconsequential. That would mean two things: a permanent economic crisis at the exact moment that the Western countries are like "oh on second thought we don't care about you haha well cheers." There's no way that the present government could survive, and it would inevitably be the Salafists who take their place. This is one of the reasons I expect Islamic State or some successor group to ultimately control most of the Arabian peninsula.

These outcomes may be inevitable; as I said before, I expect the United States to continue to lose its wars in the middle east no matter what. And NATO is overextended regardless of whether Turkey and Russia go to war over Syria. But the bizarre shoot-from-the-hip attitude that's like "We gotta tell the Saudis to suck eggs! Friendship with Turkey CANCELED. SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC is our new best friend!" is completely implausible and moreover makes it sound like this is a fight we could win if we just picked the right side. We can't. If anything, pulling the rug out from under the Saudis would wildly accelerate the Salafist conquest.

And the weird thing that's like "Millions Hate us Because of our Religion" etc. is just made up nonsense. Remember: Iraq had a secular, multicultural society that was cosmopolitan and highly educated. Then we destroyed it, not metaphorically, but with explosives. Now 2/3 of Iraq is run by extortionists and stooges and the other 1/3 is part of the Islamic State. People hate us because we murdered their families and turned their societies into nightmares.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 10:17:07 AM by franklin w. dixon »

zephyr911

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 10:25:39 AM »
Well said, FWD. The future of KSA is indeed a scary thing. I work in the security assistance field and get a constant sense that the royal family are spending their way out of destruction for as long as they can manage it, and then... yep.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2016, 10:25:57 AM »
That does not establish that we support every group they do. Turkey is also doing little against ISIS, is currently the main route for foreign fighters to enter Syria (and doesn't care), and is quite possibly even actively supporting them to undermine Assad and weaken the Kurds, whose interests align more closely to our own than Turkey's do. Turkey has also used the war on ISIS as cover for a massive bombing campaign against the Kurds in both Syria and Iraq despite their being the only competent local force to have successfully checked and reversed the advance of ISIS.

Try again.

So you tell me to try again by providing further evidence that a U.S. alliance in Syria with Turkey is a terrible idea.   Semantics may provide evidence that I mildly stretched the connection between Jaysh al Islam and the U.S.  but in attempting to disprove that, you offered further evidence to support my over arching point.

I guess I don't need to try much harder when those who want to nitpick my comments do it by providing evidence that supports my position. Win the battle but lose the war, my friend.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 10:29:04 AM by Bucksandreds »

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 10:51:45 AM »
Well said, FWD. The future of KSA is indeed a scary thing. I work in the security assistance field and get a constant sense that the royal family are spending their way out of destruction for as long as they can manage it, and then... yep.
"What a perfect time to get in a war over Yemen!" -those guys, I guess

forummm

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 10:52:37 AM »
Why does the US support religious fundamentalists domestically?

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 10:56:09 AM »
Sunni is not a race and the Sunni Kurds ally with Russia. For someone with the breadth of knowledge that it appeared that you had in the first post, your second post appears very uninformed/biased. Also the U.S. Should not fight a war with Saudi Arabia nor Turkey. The U.S. should stop acquiescing to their sectarian/radical religious political demands. I prefer no one on earth die from violence. Also what is "random" about switching alliances based off of geopolitical considerations? Are you a Sunni, btw?
My point is that if the United States did abandon its alliances with Saudi Arabia and Turkey -- which is plausible! -- a few catastrophic things would happen very quickly.

In the Turkish case, I find it completely plausible that the West would decline to intervene for Turkey in the event of a conflict with Russia. It is true that Turkey is basically on the side of Islamic State, and moreover it is unlikely that the European countries are interested in a real fight with Russia on behalf of Turkey under any circumstances. But if NATO is just like, "eh, pass" on the defense of a member state, all of the new members in Eastern Europe will be gettin the flop sweats and the odds are that conflicts there will escalate, with ever more chances for a real war between Russia and the West. It is clear that NATO expansion over-reached and it's impossible to know how that will shake out but the prospects are very dangerous.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, it is also completely plausible that the traditional alliance will become less useful to the West. Saudi oil is already much less important than it used to be, and if the energy system does migrate away from fossil fuels it will become inconsequential. That would mean two things: a permanent economic crisis at the exact moment that the Western countries are like "oh on second thought we don't care about you haha well cheers." There's no way that the present government could survive, and it would inevitably be the Salafists who take their place. This is one of the reasons I expect Islamic State or some successor group to ultimately control most of the Arabian peninsula.

These outcomes may be inevitable; as I said before, I expect the United States to continue to lose its wars in the middle east no matter what. And NATO is overextended regardless of whether Turkey and Russia go to war over Syria. But the bizarre shoot-from-the-hip attitude that's like "We gotta tell the Saudis to suck eggs! Friendship with Turkey CANCELED. SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC is our new best friend!" is completely implausible and moreover makes it sound like this is a fight we could win if we just picked the right side. We can't. If anything, pulling the rug out from under the Saudis would wildly accelerate the Salafist conquest.

And the weird thing that's like "Millions Hate us Because of our Religion" etc. is just made up nonsense. Remember: Iraq had a secular, multicultural society that was cosmopolitan and highly educated. Then we destroyed it, not metaphorically, but with explosives. Now 2/3 of Iraq is run by extortionists and stooges and the other 1/3 is part of the Islamic State. People hate us because we murdered their families and turned their societies into nightmares.

So why do we allow Turkey to play us with no consequences?  Threatening their NATO status for their actions would be a good start. You are responding like my suggestions are to bomb Turkey and Saudi Arabia when my suggestions are to just politically side with the groups whose positions are in the best interest of the U.S.

To so casually dismiss my position that Wahabbis want to kill us because of religion is to ignore the fact that ISIS has killed thousands of impotent Yazidis, Shia and Christians from Syria and Iraq. Those people have done nothing to damage the lives of the Salafists yet have been massacred in the thousands. Your 'advanced' opinion on Wahabbi motives ignores the facts on the ground.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 11:00:11 AM »
Why, I'm beginning to think the title of this thread was not a question in good faith, but rather, a phony entree to promote opinions held in advance! Now I've seen everything!

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2016, 11:05:46 AM »
Why, I'm beginning to think the title of this thread was not a question in good faith, but rather, a phony entree to promote opinions held in advance! Now I've seen everything!

How is that?  We support Saudi Arabia who is by definition a country run by religious fundamentalist doctrine through their courts. My belief is that Saudi Arabia and Recep Erdogan are religious fundamentalists and our allying with them and their cronies is counterproductive to our interests. I agree with you that open conflict with these nations is not in our interest. I disagree with your position that it's in our best interest to not confront them on their hypocrisy.  What did you imagine that your opinion was so founded in the facts that you just needed to educate me? If so, you entered this thread either in bad faith or naively.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:08:03 AM by Bucksandreds »

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2016, 11:13:03 AM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2016, 11:21:20 AM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.

I agree with your assessment of why we have acted the way we have but the real point of my question was to ask other intelligent people if those positions are really in our best interest, today.  Discussions aren't about one side knowing something and the other holding on the false beliefs in the face of the facts.  People's positions are nuanced and developed from their experiences.  To not grasp the fact that people presented with the same facts can have equally valuable but differing positions is unbecoming of someone who has the historical understanding of the Mid East that you have.  I understood why Bush held hands (literally) with Saudi kings, I know why Turkey was let into nato (to station nuclear missiles and to contain the USSR). My belief is that those interests aren't our interests anymore and that the world is at risk of decades/centuries of Wahabbi fundamentalist chaos. It would be by pressuring our 'allies' into ending the funding of wahabbism that we could begin to reverse this tide.  I vehemently disagree that we should disband the military (shrinking it is a different matter) and I disagree that we can't play a productive role in the Mid East.  Protecting millions of innocents and turning the tide against Wahabbism are noble causes which we can lead the way in.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 11:41:18 AM by Bucksandreds »

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2016, 11:37:49 AM »
Why, I'm beginning to think the title of this thread was not a question in good faith, but rather, a phony entree to promote opinions held in advance! Now I've seen everything!

Your input has been very valuable in this discussion. Why do I feel that you think a discussion where the opposing side doesn't switch their view to yours is worthless?

human

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2016, 11:42:57 AM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.

I agree with your assessment of why we have acted the way we have but the real point of my question was to ask other intelligent people if those positions are really in our best interest, today.  Discussions aren't about one side knowing something and the other holding on the false beliefs in the face of the facts.  People's positions are nuanced and developed from their experiences.  To not grasp the fact that people presented with the same facts can have equally valuable but differing positions is unbecoming of someone who has the historical understanding of the Mid East that you have.  I understood why Bush held hands (literally) with Saudi kings, I know why Turkey was let into nato (to station nuclear missiles and to contain the USSR). My belief is that those interests aren't our interests anymore and that the world is at risk of decades/centuries of Wahabbi fundamentalist chaos. It would be by pressuring our 'allies' into ending the funding of wahabbism that we could begin to reverse this tide.  I vehemently disagree that we should disband the military (shrinking it is a different matter) and I disagree that we can't play a productive role in the Mid East.  Protecting millions of innocents and turning the tide against Wahabbism are noble causes which we can lead the way in.

Problem is U.S. Foreign policy in the middle east has never been about "protecting innocents" and never will be.

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2016, 11:45:04 AM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.

I agree with your assessment of why we have acted the way we have but the real point of my question was to ask other intelligent people if those positions are really in our best interest, today.  Discussions aren't about one side knowing something and the other holding on the false beliefs in the face of the facts.  People's positions are nuanced and developed from their experiences.  To not grasp the fact that people presented with the same facts can have equally valuable but differing positions is unbecoming of someone who has the historical understanding of the Mid East that you have.  I understood why Bush held hands (literally) with Saudi kings, I know why Turkey was let into nato (to station nuclear missiles and to contain the USSR). My belief is that those interests aren't our interests anymore and that the world is at risk of decades/centuries of Wahabbi fundamentalist chaos. It would be by pressuring our 'allies' into ending the funding of wahabbism that we could begin to reverse this tide.  I vehemently disagree that we should disband the military (shrinking it is a different matter) and I disagree that we can't play a productive role in the Mid East.  Protecting millions of innocents and turning the tide against Wahabbism are noble causes which we can lead the way in.

Problem is U.S. Foreign policy in the middle east has never been about "protecting innocents" and never will be.

I tend to agree with that statement as well. I'm not saying that U.S. position will change.  I just am interested to see what others think about how and if it should change.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2016, 11:46:24 AM »
Problem is U.S. Foreign policy in the middle east has never been about "protecting innocents" and never will be.
Yeah it's like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2016, 12:05:30 PM »
Problem is U.S. Foreign policy in the middle east has never been about "protecting innocents" and never will be.
Yeah it's like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY

Lol. I've never seen that before.  True at times for all countries.

SwordGuy

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2016, 03:49:42 PM »
Because the United States Government is stupid.   That is why.

Who else would have a diplomat ask a group of Arabs and Israelis why they can't just sit down and discuss their problems like good Christians?

forummm

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2016, 04:47:53 PM »
Because the United States Government is stupid.   That is why.

Who else would have a diplomat ask a group of Arabs and Israelis why they can't just sit down and discuss their problems like good Christians?

And insisting that the Palestinians agree to all the Israeli demands before the talks can begin.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2016, 09:49:27 PM »
Because the United States Government is stupid.   That is why.

Who else would have a diplomat ask a group of Arabs and Israelis why they can't just sit down and discuss their problems like good Christians?

Want real irony?

In 2009 two British soldiers deploying to Afghanistan the next day, were killed by the IRA while waiting for a pizza delivery.
The name of one of the soldiers, Azimkar. The killers, christians- supported by a lot of good christians in Boston.


PAstash

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2016, 11:56:03 PM »
The short answer is the cold war never ended.

America and Russia along with many of their allies and many other countries fight "proxy wars". We have been at war for almost twenty years. you could make a argument for longer. I won't speak to this specific conflict or any other. The thing to understand is if you are talking about western Russian narco-terrorism or fundamentalists suicide bombing Israel what you are really talking about is two or most likely many more world powers conducting unsanctioned warfare because it is no longer politically acceptable to declare war.

key things to understand here is we don't have access to all the information that the federal government has access too. So to even begin to guess at what is going on and who is bombing who for why is almost a silly exorcise is game theory. Just wait 50-80 years for it to become declassified write it down then look it up.

2buttons

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2016, 05:16:21 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2016, 06:12:03 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history.

You think 99% of US news isn't washed through a pro American/Israel filter?

2buttons

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2016, 09:10:42 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history.

You think 99% of US news isn't washed through a pro American/Israel filter?

Equating the freedom of US press to Russian press is absurd.

Moreover, I question of your motivation of trying to push your political views on a counter cultural finance forum. Seems to me if you are serious about pushing your opinions you might have greater impact on a larger demographic.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2016, 10:08:30 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history.

You think 99% of US news isn't washed through a pro American/Israel filter?

Equating the freedom of US press to Russian press is absurd.

Moreover, I question of your motivation of trying to push your political views on a counter cultural finance forum. Seems to me if you are serious about pushing your opinions you might have greater impact on a larger demographic.

I don't speak Russian, never read Russian news, don't support Russian agression in Eastern Ukraine and you thought this thread was interesting enough to read/comment. The fact that 99% of Americans have no idea that the UN declares that Israel has/is stealing land from a sovereign people speaks for itself. I am very pro Israel existence. Just not pro Israel land theft. To sanction Russia for Ukraine and not Israel for the West Bank is an absurd double standard.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2016, 10:23:38 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history.

You think 99% of US news isn't washed through a pro American/Israel filter?
1 thing thats really funny/blatant about American news coverage is that we selectively translate foreign languages to sound as crazy as possible when the country is our enemy, and as normal as possible when it's an ally. I think a funny example is like, why is it "Chairman" Mao but "President" Xi? Both are technically correct but they have the exact same titles... really hard to fathom... The Iranians are always calling for deah to everything when arguably "down with" would be more in the spirit of the expression. North Korea is always calling things "thrice cursed" solely because thrice is an anachronistic word even though "triply" would be more colloquially accurate. Etc.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2016, 11:07:42 AM »
Because the United States government does not get its news from a Russian propaganda outlet. 

That, and "support" isn't the right word. Additionally, oil, influence, geopolitical reasons, broader conflicts as noted above, and history.

You think 99% of US news isn't washed through a pro American/Israel filter?
1 thing thats really funny/blatant about American news coverage is that we selectively translate foreign languages to sound as crazy as possible when the country is our enemy, and as normal as possible when it's an ally. I think a funny example is like, why is it "Chairman" Mao but "President" Xi? Both are technically correct but they have the exact same titles... really hard to fathom... The Iranians are always calling for deah to everything when arguably "down with" would be more in the spirit of the expression. North Korea is always calling things "thrice cursed" solely because thrice is an anachronistic word even though "triply" would be more colloquially accurate. Etc.

The ayatollah of Iran himself has clarified the meaning of 'Death to America' as meaning 'end American imperialistic policies.' They've got some messed up policies there, that is for sure.  I would however, much rather spend a week in Tehran than in Riyadh and from my experience knowing people from both countries, I would be much more welcome in Tehran.  Iran is our enemy because they got mad at us for supporting the shah and captured our embassy workers whom they let go and never beheaded as our Saudi and Turkish friends cronies do. We shot down a commercial airliner of theirs on 'accident' killing many.  The only reasonable path forward is to balance Wahhabi influence in the Mid East with a strong Iran who, despite serious flaws, is not a threat to the west or humanity in general. Heck, every Iranian I've ever met shares the vast majority of my values. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2016, 12:43:39 PM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.



FWD - This is absolutely almost certainly correct. America has no real domestic interest in any of these countries. Our allies need continued access to their resources, and American policies have been aimed to accomplish that.  As a wise man once said "All we have to do to scramble the Middle East like a pan of bad eggs is not a god damned thing."

The real question is what will happen when the USA tires of footing the bill for rest of the world?

Bucksandreds

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2016, 01:04:51 PM »
The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.



FWD - This is absolutely almost certainly correct. America has no real domestic interest in any of these countries. Our allies need continued access to their resources, and American policies have been aimed to accomplish that.  As a wise man once said "All we have to do to scramble the Middle East like a pan of bad eggs is not a god damned thing."

The real question is what will happen when the USA tires of footing the bill for rest of the world?

I have no problem with the U.S. getting out as long as we don't accept the millions of refugees that will result.  The easiest option is to control Turkish and Saudi influence by not interfering with Iran and Russia (only in Mid East.) we keep intercepting Iranian arms to Yemen. Why? The Saudis are killing thousands of Shia there. The Shia have a right to defend themselves. Let the Kurds take northern Syria and northern Iraq and tell the Turks if they send ground troops into Syria to fight the Kurds that they're out of NATO. Bolster secular (and Sunni) Egypt. The world needs nothing from the Mid East. Fracked oil is plentiful and coming online all over the world. Suppress fundamentalist Sunnis while bolstering the secular ones (Kurds and Egypt.). Anything that fosters Wahhabism needs to be addressed.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2016, 01:18:08 PM »
America has no real domestic interest in any of these countries.
American politicians have a very strong domestic interest in many of these countries.
Either they have local voting community from one of these countries, get campaign financing from the same religion of another or have local companies that rely on selling arms to a third.

All politics is domestic.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2016, 01:36:05 PM »
I accept your point nobodyspecial, but stand by my statement. While individuals, companies, and even possibly sectors of the U.S. Government have interests in the region, the United States of America as an entity has little to gain from the region; if it all went belly up tomorrow, the U.S. could choose to completely ignore it with almost no impact on citizen security or standard of living.

The United States no longer has a "best interest" in the middle east. No possible outcome to the present conflicts is to our benefit. You asked why we support the actors we support and I told you; this late in the game we're playing a losing hand to keep the old international order in place for as long as possible. That's not the same as saying we should keep it up; in my judgment we should abandon war as an instrument of policy and unilaterally disband the military. I'll just keep my fingers crossed on that.



FWD - This is absolutely almost certainly correct. America has no real domestic interest in any of these countries. Our allies need continued access to their resources, and American policies have been aimed to accomplish that.  As a wise man once said "All we have to do to scramble the Middle East like a pan of bad eggs is not a god damned thing."

The real question is what will happen when the USA tires of footing the bill for rest of the world?

I have no problem with the U.S. getting out as long as we don't accept the millions of refugees that will result.  The easiest option is to control Turkish and Saudi influence by not interfering with Iran and Russia (only in Mid East.) we keep intercepting Iranian arms to Yemen. Why? The Saudis are killing thousands of Shia there. The Shia have a right to defend themselves. Let the Kurds take northern Syria and northern Iraq and tell the Turks if they send ground troops into Syria to fight the Kurds that they're out of NATO. Bolster secular (and Sunni) Egypt. The world needs nothing from the Mid East. Fracked oil is plentiful and coming online all over the world. Suppress fundamentalist Sunnis while bolstering the secular ones (Kurds and Egypt.). Anything that fosters Wahhabism needs to be addressed.

I guess Bucksandreds, I would ask "Why?"  What does the US gain from such a convoluted plan? In the end it would be the same groups shooting at each other as there are now, but the AK-47s and the AR-15s would be reversed...

I think FWD already pointed this out - since it doesn't really matter who the US supports, it has always chosen to support the one that it has the most influence with, and the best relations, regardless of particular politics or idealogy.

Yaeger

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2016, 01:55:37 PM »
You probably should have shortened this into "What is the foreign policy of the US in respect to areas with strong religious political influences?"

You could probably start with a basic understanding that these people aren't 'bad'. They're not villains twirling mustaches. Even members of ISIS/ISIL probably has a deep belief that they're doing good. That might not correspond to Western values, but that's the problem with international relations. We're not out to actively promote and enforce western morality, we've seen how that's worked in our past.

I'd then go with our ability to interpret shifts in culture, politics, and even religion. This is where working with the country through the State Department, our intelligence community, and other means to gather accurate information on the country. Often, our interactions with 'democratically elected' government officials does not reflect reality in these countries. We don't even understand America, how can we expect to understand these countries where their culture, political structure, and goals are so fundamentally different from ourselves as it's possible to be?

There's so much more, but if you read documents like our National Strategy (https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/2015_national_security_strategy.pdf) maybe it'll help.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2016, 06:16:47 PM »
I accept your point nobodyspecial, but stand by my statement. While individuals, companies, and even possibly sectors of the U.S. Government have interests in the region, the United States of America as an entity has little to gain from the region; if it all went belly up tomorrow, the U.S. could choose to completely ignore it with almost no impact on citizen security or standard of living.
Yes, but the US government is fictional - it's actions are the sum of the personal prejudices, interests and re-election goals of a set of politicians.
 

- and the same is true for all other democracies of course !
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 06:19:27 PM by nobodyspecial »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2016, 08:44:20 AM »
I accept your point nobodyspecial, but stand by my statement. While individuals, companies, and even possibly sectors of the U.S. Government have interests in the region, the United States of America as an entity has little to gain from the region; if it all went belly up tomorrow, the U.S. could choose to completely ignore it with almost no impact on citizen security or standard of living.
Yes, but the US government is fictional - it's actions are the sum of the personal prejudices, interests and re-election goals of a set of politicians.
 

- and the same is true for all other democracies of course !

Interesting theory. I would agree with the general premise that any organization is a combination of the actions/interests of the parties involved, I would argue that in the case of the U.S.A. the general policy goals of the group are still met, despite the fact that the motivation of the individual actors may be different or even contradictory to that overall goal.

Drifterrider

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2016, 09:43:16 AM »
Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?

So they will stay abroad.

Cyaphas

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2016, 10:56:25 PM »
I accept your point nobodyspecial, but stand by my statement. While individuals, companies, and even possibly sectors of the U.S. Government have interests in the region, the United States of America as an entity has little to gain from the region; if it all went belly up tomorrow, the U.S. could choose to completely ignore it with almost no impact on citizen security or standard of living.
Yes, but the US government is fictional - it's actions are the sum of the personal prejudices, interests and re-election goals of a set of politicians.
 

- and the same is true for all other democracies of course !

Interesting theory. I would agree with the general premise that any organization is a combination of the actions/interests of the parties involved, I would argue that in the case of the U.S.A. the general policy goals of the group are still met, despite the fact that the motivation of the individual actors may be different or even contradictory to that overall goal.

I'd wager that this is finally about to come to an end. The decades of having our cake and eating it to will soon be over. Our credit cards are running out. That's not to say our military will be any less potent. I just believe that we're going to be forced to stop spending money around the world like drunken sailors on leave.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2016, 10:30:09 AM »
I'd wager that this is finally about to come to an end. The decades of having our cake and eating it to will soon be over. Our credit cards are running out. That's not to say our military will be any less potent. I just believe that we're going to be forced to stop spending money around the world like drunken sailors on leave.
As was said about the Apollo program, we don't spend money abroad, we spend it in America. At Lockheed, and Boeing and General Dynamics. It would be a brave politician that calls for the end of the F35 program being built in his home town.

Interesting interviews with a US officer in post war Iraq - complaining that they couldn't spend money abroad.
"I can command a unit of $10M tanks firing $100K smart munitions, I can call in an air strike without considering the cost -  but I can't pay a local $20 to fix a water supply to this village"

 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2016, 03:59:16 AM »
I accept your point nobodyspecial, but stand by my statement. While individuals, companies, and even possibly sectors of the U.S. Government have interests in the region, the United States of America as an entity has little to gain from the region; if it all went belly up tomorrow, the U.S. could choose to completely ignore it with almost no impact on citizen security or standard of living.
Yes, but the US government is fictional - it's actions are the sum of the personal prejudices, interests and re-election goals of a set of politicians.
 

- and the same is true for all other democracies of course !

Interesting theory. I would agree with the general premise that any organization is a combination of the actions/interests of the parties involved, I would argue that in the case of the U.S.A. the general policy goals of the group are still met, despite the fact that the motivation of the individual actors may be different or even contradictory to that overall goal.

I'd wager that this is finally about to come to an end. The decades of having our cake and eating it to will soon be over. Our credit cards are running out. That's not to say our military will be any less potent. I just believe that we're going to be forced to stop spending money around the world like drunken sailors on leave.

Thoughts on how that would effect America? We'd be fine; it's the rest of the world that may begin to have some issues...

GuitarStv

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2016, 06:41:06 AM »
Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?

So they will stay abroad.

How's that plan working out?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2016, 08:49:56 AM »
Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?

So they will stay abroad.

How's that plan working out?

If one used the metric of 'deaths in the USA from terrorist attacks, per capita'  and compare it to many other countries, I would say "Pretty Well."

Drifterrider

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2016, 11:37:03 AM »
Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?

So they will stay abroad.

How's that plan working out?

Some would answer like the one below me, and some would say "about the same as it always does when you tell your neighbors to clean up their yard while yours needs work".

However, for all our failings (the US), there are people risking their lives to get IN, not risking their lives to get OUT.

human

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2016, 05:48:47 PM »
Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?

So they will stay abroad.

How's that plan working out?

Some would answer like the one below me, and some would say "about the same as it always does when you tell your neighbors to clean up their yard while yours needs work".

However, for all our failings (the US), there are people risking their lives to get IN, not risking their lives to get OUT.

I must admit, I'm guilty of forgetting this. I love to criticize the U.S. but I also love to visit, such a love hate relationship. I love that scene in "Control Room" when the Al Jeezera producer that has spent all his time bashing the U.S. then admits he will send his kids to Harvard and ensure they become citizens.

Drifterrider

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Re: Why does the U.S. Support Religious Fundamentalists Abroad?
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2016, 12:53:40 PM »
I am a citizen and therefore most qualified and indeed required to criticize my government with vigor.

However, those who are not, may not.

Kinda like family.  I may criticize my family; you may not :)

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!