Author Topic: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?  (Read 66652 times)

Villanelle

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2015, 11:03:10 AM »
I really like you NICE!, wish we were friends irl lol I too share your feelings and get what you are saying.
I understand what your point is and I agree, we CAN all do something. Right now, my husband and I dont have much disposable income (we are paying for school for both of us and have a kid to support) yet we find a way to give both monetarily(again,not much but what we can) and with time and you bet that as our properity increases so will our giving :)
I use to feel the same way about a lot of the ppl in this forum and it was starting to turn me away from it-it is hard to see so much selfishness (there, I said it) with so much abundance but then I realizes thay it boils down to a life philisophy and a lack of exposure. I believe that a lot of ppl truly and simply cannot empathize and it comes out largely out of lack of exposure. It is not an excuse but it is a big contributing factor. I personally was born in a developing country and from spending a couple years there I was greayly impacted-the memories of fucking children coming to me (then a teenager) obviously starving for money haunt me. You feel their desperation in a way tv, radio or any other media cannot get across to simple viewers in their homes. I believe this lack of exposure is what also makes it easier for ppl to forget that these are real ppl in real life that need this help.
Dont get consumed with the selfishness of others (Im sorry but if you are in a developed world, have income and give nothing or just your cast offs when you could give more then yes, you are selfish), the world is that way and it probably always will be, instead use those negative feelings as a personal motivator/cataclyst for yourself.
and just to make it clear, OP is not saying that if you dont give a large portion of your money you arent doing anything, this is intended to the people that give nothing and have much or maybe .01% and call it good (but are happy to get over on others, etc).

Do you own more than 1 pair of shoes?  Do you live in a home that is more than 200sq ft?  Do you shower more than 2-3x/week?

How incredibly selfish of you.  It's your right, of course, but just admit that you are selfish and are happy to go get over on others, whatever that means).

You draw a line in the sand and say everyone on the other side is selfish, but there are arbitrary lines that have you on the selfish side as well.  So save your judgement. When you are the one creating the definitions that make yourself good and others selfish, is doesn't have much meaning.

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2015, 11:06:33 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.

Eric

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2015, 11:08:09 AM »
Why do you consider giving small amounts now to be more impactful than giving large amounts later?  I view it the opposite way.  I've always viewed a large lump sum donation as having much more impact than a periodic hundred bucks.  Like Vikb said above, charities can use your small payment to help someone today, or they can use your huge lump sum payment to help people forever.
I dont think its necessarily that the OP views it as most impactful, just that the ppl not giving are more likely to not give in the future either.
One thing I personally think about giving now vs later is the opportunity cost of all the ppl that dont get helped while money is being held.

I'd say that's a faulty assumption then.  Sure there's an opportunity cost, but the tradeoff is helping fewer people now versus more people later.  I guess we all have to weigh the urgency on our own scale.

resy

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2015, 11:08:22 AM »
This thread is awesome, many of you are awesome. So glad I didnt get turned away fron the forum in the past :) its making me so happy to see so many thoughtful mutachians :)

Gin1984

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2015, 11:12:27 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.
Charity app?

fields

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2015, 11:13:32 AM »
I rarely donate.  The reason for this is that my work experience with low-income families has been that donations don't meet the need.  Examples:  my office ran a food pantry for awhile--until we had to throw out all the food no one wanted.  At Christmas, we are overwhelmed with donations of toys for children--who don't want the specific items that are donated.  Same thing with clothes--we had an entire storage room full of donated clothes, that none of the families we work with wanted. 

I realize my experience is limited in some ways, but I can't help feeling that anything I give would be wasted.  If there were a way to donate directly and very specifically to someone, I would occasionally do that, but even then the likelihood that the donation is going to help in the way it's intended is, in my opinion, very low. 

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2015, 11:17:26 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.
Charity app?

http://www.charitymiles.org/

Cookie78

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2015, 11:19:04 AM »
I've often heard the line "I give my time instead of money." Charities need both. It is really awesome that you give your time, but don't act like that is a 1:1 replacement for cold, hard cash. The blind orphanage appreciates me stopping by, as do the kids, but they needed food more than they needed my presence. Time does not replace money, nor does money replace time.

If both are needed why do YOU value money over time? I donate my time to a charity that highly values both the time and money donated. They would not be able to function without the vast numbers of people donating their time. Some people donate time, others donate money. If both are needed, why slam the people donating time?

The way I see it is that if you still have to work for a living, you can't afford to donate to charity.

Charitable giving is for rich people.

If I end up as ridiculously rich as I'm planning, then I will donate generously to charity. Until then, I can't afford it.

Once I'm rich, my donations to charity will likely exceed the lifetime donations of the average American, so you can't seriously call this uncaring.

+1

Gin1984

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2015, 11:22:46 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.
Charity app?

http://www.charitymiles.org/
Thank you!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2015, 11:23:16 AM »
Back again, this is such a thought-provoking forum.

Two excellent groups who help all over the world - Doctors without borders/medecins sans frontieres, and Hydrogeologists without borders.  Health care and clean drinking water - two basic needs.  I am nearly out from under the debt load created by my separation and divorce, and once my only debt is the mortgage, this is where my money will mostly be going.

At home - what can you do to make your community better?  Do your clubs give back?  Are you just enjoying them while others do the work, or are you contributing?  These are where my time goes.  Some is serving on executives, some is volunteering to work at specific events, some is the therapy dog visits (every week, no fail expect for health reasons, they love the dog visits too much to not show).

resy

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2015, 11:23:38 AM »

EDIT: I want to clarify that the point of this story was not to explain myself to either OP or rest, as I owe neither of you explanations for my decisions. The point was to point out that you both came with incredible holier-than-thou attitudes and morally attacked anyone that disagreed with your points of view with words like "selfish," "cold-hearted," and "sickening". Tone down the rhetoric, you know our usernames, not our stories.
I think this paragraph is a lot more about you than anything, sorry.
and Meh. If I'm seen as having a holier-than-thou attitude by some ppl on this forum I really dont care, anyone that knows me in really life would tell u contrary. Im big in compassion which is why I dont like to get into arguments-because down deep we each have things, often hidden, that drive us that are sometimes hard to face.
I know I sounded harsh calling some ppl selfish but it really is difficult for me to see so much disdain and selfishness, by not bringing it up when it is being pushed so aggressively (such as claiming privilage is a right) I do feel I enable it in a way if I dont at least point out that the person is being selfish. They're just words dude, no harm done and honestly we all are to a point in different areas (its part of the human condition). Whats important is to try to improve on it and not just roll around in it and then try to deny it. I do agree with you that we all have that right to choosr our lives/paths but everything has a consequence and we just need to own up to it. if you choose to not be giving then thats your personal call but be honest and call it as it is, say you dont value giving and leave it at that instead of giving me 1000 excuses of why you dont and the rationalizations behind it (obviously this doesnt apply to u as u do give, im speaking generally).

minority_finance_mo

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2015, 11:23:49 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.
Charity app?

http://www.charitymiles.org/

This is amazing. (It almost seems too good to be true; have you vetted it?)

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2015, 11:26:10 AM »
I rarely donate.  The reason for this is that my work experience with low-income families has been that donations don't meet the need.  Examples:  my office ran a food pantry for awhile--until we had to throw out all the food no one wanted.  At Christmas, we are overwhelmed with donations of toys for children--who don't want the specific items that are donated.  Same thing with clothes--we had an entire storage room full of donated clothes, that none of the families we work with wanted. 

I realize my experience is limited in some ways, but I can't help feeling that anything I give would be wasted.  If there were a way to donate directly and very specifically to someone, I would occasionally do that, but even then the likelihood that the donation is going to help in the way it's intended is, in my opinion, very low.

I can understand your position and right oodles about it. But we cannot control the outcome. We can only do are part.
And while I do not mean to get all spiritual, as Mother Teresa believes:

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered.  Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.  Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies.  Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you.  Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight.  Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous.  Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten.  Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough.  Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway.

Elbata

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2015, 11:27:31 AM »
In Orange County $5MM was donated to Chapman College. The donor was 95 and wants his money back. He says he was defrauded. Chapman is refusing to give back the money.

So if I was to give someone $1000. Mind you, a $1000 is not much, and not even needed by the person receiving the $1000. And I ask for that back and the answer is no.

Pretty good yardstick that's someone who I don't want to give money.

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2015, 11:30:18 AM »
I completely believe in donating at least 10% to charity. But have cut back until my debt is gone. (but still donated $2,000 in 2014 - yay).

One reason is not only to monetarily help or to use for tax benefits, but donating to charitable causes also creates an mental shift in one's self (IMO). It releases the concept 'this is about me' or 'its all about me', to 'we are all in this life together'.

However, charity is not always directly money. Other ways I have donated to charity is: using the charity app while running and walking (donates 0.10 or 0.25/mi, depending on activity), donating items to goodwill, making a casserole dish for a family in need.
Charity app?

http://www.charitymiles.org/

This is amazing. (It almost seems too good to be true; have you vetted it?)

moe_rants I use the app all the time. And have created a very good social networking relationship with Charity Miles and some of its causes (like WWP). The donor and causes change from time to time. But they are still going. And since I walk and hike all the time, I figure I should put it to good use.

And Gin1984, you're welcome. Glad to I could help. :)

Sid888

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2015, 11:36:40 AM »
I really like you NICE!, wish we were friends irl lol I too share your feelings and get what you are saying.
I understand what your point is and I agree, we CAN all do something. Right now, my husband and I dont have much disposable income (we are paying for school for both of us and have a kid to support) yet we find a way to give both monetarily(again,not much but what we can) and with time and you bet that as our properity increases so will our giving :)
I use to feel the same way about a lot of the ppl in this forum and it was starting to turn me away from it-it is hard to see so much selfishness (there, I said it) with so much abundance but then I realizes thay it boils down to a life philisophy and a lack of exposure. I believe that a lot of ppl truly and simply cannot empathize and it comes out largely out of lack of exposure. It is not an excuse but it is a big contributing factor. I personally was born in a developing country and from spending a couple years there I was greayly impacted-the memories of fucking children coming to me (then a teenager) obviously starving for money haunt me. You feel their desperation in a way tv, radio or any other media cannot get across to simple viewers in their homes. I believe this lack of exposure is what also makes it easier for ppl to forget that these are real ppl in real life that need this help.
Dont get consumed with the selfishness of others (Im sorry but if you are in a developed world, have income and give nothing or just your cast offs when you could give more then yes, you are selfish), the world is that way and it probably always will be, instead use those negative feelings as a personal motivator/cataclyst for yourself.
and just to make it clear, OP is not saying that if you dont give a large portion of your money you arent doing anything, this is intended to the people that give nothing and have much or maybe .01% and call it good (but are happy to get over on others, etc).

I have been in some very poor countries as well and it has influenced my views as well.  Doesn't charity in impoverished countries just continue the terrible governmental and political systems that keep these folks impoverished in the first place?  What's worse is when the powers that be in these nation's take their "skim" of aid money and pop it into swiss bank accounts.

1% of the world's population owns 46% of the world's wealth.  Wouldn't it be more efficient to have this tiny group step up financially to solve some of the world's serious poverty issues?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/20/davos-2014-oxfam-85-richest-people-half-world/4655337/


ender

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2015, 11:45:36 AM »
One of the things I did last night was write a letter to a child I support financially in an impoverished area of the world. For a small amount of my money, his life is transformed through education and food and community.

The thing that gets me on this subject is so many people want to bitch and moan about how unfair or awful the world is and do nothing. Waaa, waaa, taxes are oppressive. Waa, waa, government ruining my life. Waaa, waaa, democrats/republicans destroying the country.

When there are so many opportunities to actually do something for even a relative pittance which will dramatically impact a HUMAN LIFE it's really easy to make a $50/month donation and literally change someone's life.

This is why I think it's important to give money and/or time and/or resources. It gives you a perspective that put a lot of first-world problems (or MMM problems, if you like) into perspective and makes you significantly more grateful for the overwhelming abundance most of us here do have.

Metta

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2015, 11:53:58 AM »
I rarely donate.  The reason for this is that my work experience with low-income families has been that donations don't meet the need.  Examples:  my office ran a food pantry for awhile--until we had to throw out all the food no one wanted.  At Christmas, we are overwhelmed with donations of toys for children--who don't want the specific items that are donated.  Same thing with clothes--we had an entire storage room full of donated clothes, that none of the families we work with wanted. 

I realize my experience is limited in some ways, but I can't help feeling that anything I give would be wasted.  If there were a way to donate directly and very specifically to someone, I would occasionally do that, but even then the likelihood that the donation is going to help in the way it's intended is, in my opinion, very low.

One thing we do is donate items to the  local humane society or cat shelter that are needed. Blankets, dog beds, dog food, cat food, and so forth. We also donate money. Abandoned dogs and cats are not particularly picky about the specific things donated to make their lives more comfortable and some of their stories give me nightmares. (We ensure it is a no-kill shelter we are dealing with.) My friends who are involved with animal rescue tell me that our local humane society is a good steward of the money and items donated and are always in need of more.

You may want to consider other outlets for your charitable impulses if your experience tells you that low income families are not the best recipients.

Cookie78

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2015, 12:00:20 PM »
I rarely donate.  The reason for this is that my work experience with low-income families has been that donations don't meet the need.  Examples:  my office ran a food pantry for awhile--until we had to throw out all the food no one wanted.  At Christmas, we are overwhelmed with donations of toys for children--who don't want the specific items that are donated.  Same thing with clothes--we had an entire storage room full of donated clothes, that none of the families we work with wanted. 

I realize my experience is limited in some ways, but I can't help feeling that anything I give would be wasted.  If there were a way to donate directly and very specifically to someone, I would occasionally do that, but even then the likelihood that the donation is going to help in the way it's intended is, in my opinion, very low.

One thing we do is donate items to the  local humane society or cat shelter that are needed. Blankets, dog beds, dog food, cat food, and so forth. We also donate money. Abandoned dogs and cats are not particularly picky about the specific things donated to make their lives more comfortable and some of their stories give me nightmares. (We ensure it is a no-kill shelter we are dealing with.) My friends who are involved with animal rescue tell me that our local humane society is a good steward of the money and items donated and are always in need of more.

You may want to consider other outlets for your charitable impulses if your experience tells you that low income families are not the best recipients.

+1
This is why I choose to donate to animal causes rather than human causes.


Edit: After I FIRE I would like to donate more to education and health in places where it would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 12:14:01 PM by Cookie78 »

AllieVaulter

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2015, 12:01:02 PM »
IMO, people who give money or time to a charity, do it because it makes THEM feel good.
It really is a very selfish act.

I'm sorry, but I've heard this numerous times and I think it's bullsh*t.  Yes, giving to others may make people feel good, but that does not negate the fact that they are making a sacrifice.  If an MMMer is saving 50% of his income and donating 10% to charity that puts him on track to retire in 17 years.  Which is great.  But if he instead chose NOT to donate to charity, then he could save all 60% of his income and retire in 12 years.  This (hypothetical) MMMer is sacrificing 5 years that could be spent in blissful retirement to help others.  To completely ignore this fact is disingenuous. 

I understand that some people say they will donate more money after they retire, but as others have noted, our fundamental selves do not change just because we hit retirement.  If we've developed habits rationalizing against helping others, we'll probably continue to do that. 

One of the things I like about MMM is the focus on less commercialism.  Using our resources wisely.  We should take care of the earth.  But we should ALSO take care of people.  There are literally people starving to death.  Dying of diseases that people in places like the US, Canada, & Western Europe don't even give a thought to.  We all got vaccinated, so those disease won't ever be a problem for us. 

We're working on reducing our perceived needs, but that doesn't change the fact that we're completely fulfilling our actual needs.  Most people on the MMM forum have plenty to eat, a safe place to sleep, and clothes to wear.  Everything else is luxury. 

tomsang

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2015, 12:09:39 PM »
NICE!  We donate time and money now and we plan on doing more as we FIRE. The challenge is how much is enough. If I worked until I was 70, I could realistically give $30+ million to the less fortunate. Am I being greedy if I retire early and only give $3-5 million?  SOL had an amazing thread regarding this issue. Working longer to give back to the society. It is eye opening to think about the impact that you can have if you keep working.

Some are in the taker mentality and focus on the extreme end of the spectrum on how to take advantage of social programs where others give away almost 100%. Everyone will need to find their appropriate level and I believe that people's views will change with time, wealth and knowledge.

MrsPotts

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2015, 12:37:59 PM »
The way I see it is that if you still have to work for a living, you can't afford to donate to charity.

Charitable giving is for rich people.

If I end up as ridiculously rich as I'm planning, then I will donate generously to charity. Until then, I can't afford it.

Once I'm rich, my donations to charity will likely exceed the lifetime donations of the average American, so you can't seriously call this uncaring.

This is wrong in so many ways. 

Milizard

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2015, 12:47:03 PM »
When your pot isn't that big, it's hard to do everything you'd like to do.  Say you are able to live on 75% of your pay, save 15% for retirement, and donate 10% to charity.  Then, you become mustachian and want to increase your retirement savings to 50%.  That 10% to charity is a lot easier to cut while cutting living expenses from 75% to 50%, than going from 75% to 40%.  (I'm talking about people making normal salaries here, not those making so much that this cut is simply a change in attitude.)

seattlecyclone

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2015, 12:47:41 PM »
I donate some time and money now, and plan to do more of both when I'm FI. My employer matches charitable contributions up to a certain limit. I max that out because it's free money for a charity, just like 401(k) matching is free money for my retirement. I think it's rather selfish to take advantage of the latter benefit but not the former.

johnny847

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2015, 12:55:29 PM »
I donate some time and money now, and plan to do more of both when I'm FI. My employer matches charitable contributions up to a certain limit. I max that out because it's free money for a charity, just like 401(k) matching is free money for my retirement. I think it's rather selfish to take advantage of the latter benefit but not the former.
Wow that charitable matching is awesome! I don't think I've ever heard of an employer doing that before (but I'm a grad student who hasn't worked in the real world yet, so I don't have much experience).

I have never donated any significant amount to charity. Reading this thread, I'm starting to rethink this. Part of it is my parents never donated to charity (despite being able to afford it) so it's never a value that was instilled in me.

I did donate $634 this year to a school, but that doesn't really count per se because I'm getting a $634 GA tax credit for it.

Jags4186

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2015, 01:04:59 PM »
I donate plenty to charity.  The people who don't may make excuses for themselves, but they are really just selfish and cold-hearted.

It is not individuals responsibility to take care of the less fortunate. It is the governments. We sign over certain rights, liberties, and money to the government in order for them to take care of society as a whole. 

My responsibility is to ensure I do not require "charity". My will will provide for charitable giving because at that point I won't need my money anymore.

I guess that makes me selfish and cold hearted.

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2015, 01:09:41 PM »
Currently, I don't give anything to charity because I believe in taking care of myself first to the point of being FI. I would consider it pure stupidity verging on a moral failure if I was forced to rely on someone else's aid in the future due to my inability to properly plan and take care of myself (such as donating to charity now, but then under-saving and essentially needing my charitable money back later).

Also, I question the effectiveness of charity in general. I don't consider charity spent here in the US to be a good use of money since I think just about everyone here has their basic needs met and has at least some opportunity to get ahead in life, which would leave me with donating abroad where my dollar would also have higher buying power. However, billions have been spent over decades of time 'helping' the poor in Africa, for instance, and yet I don't really see and evidence that that aid has helped make any lasting changes for the better. A lot of good intentions seem to come with negative unintended consequences, and I worry that, such as in the case of many countries in Africa, we are simply perpetuating the status quo and allowing shitty governments to remain unable to meet the needs of its citizens. I would feel much more confident in donating to charities if they produced studies backed with hard data proving the effectiveness of different methods of aid over time.

At the end, though, I do plan to give away my entire stache to charitable or other causes, so I hope to eventually find something I could consider worthwhile. So far, the only 'causes' that stand out to me are micro-lending set ups like Kiva, where I feel that people in need are able to take initiative in bettering their own lives and maybe angel investing in tech companies that may be able to improve technology in the future, thereby bettering everyone's lives.  Hopefully, I should have a good 70+ years to think about it more thoroughly and accumulate additional evidence.

lizzie

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2015, 01:12:03 PM »
In the last few years we have made a conscious effort to increase our charitable giving. I grew up quite poor and feel that, now that I have some money, it is my duty as a member of my community to give something back.

It is also one of the enjoyable things about having generally been a good steward of my finances that I have the opportunity to devote money to things I care about.

That said, the cost of college for our kids is looming large for me right now. It's only a couple years away, and I was thinking about cutting back on the charitable giving for now until we know how bad the hit will be. I'm not feeling particularly good about this, and this thread is making me think harder about it.

ETA: I have nothing against people who would rather save now and give a big gift later, but it's not a philosophy I subscribe to. It reminds me of the quote "In the long run we are all dead." There are people and institutions that need money now. If the libraries in my neighborhood all shut down, if the food bank closes up shop, if the community theater we like to support (and that does a ton of work with low-income kids, not to mention running the greatest urban parade in the US IMHO) goes under, those are all real losses and it won't be much consolation to me to think "well I was gonna give a bunch later."
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 01:19:06 PM by lizzie »

sheepstache

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2015, 01:15:44 PM »
Basically I hear you saying you don't want to do it, and then attempting to justify your position with other reasons. Like someone said in another thread regarding marketing/sales - people buy on emotion and then use other means to justify their purchase.

Yet I don't hear anything but emotional reasons for giving.

Lyssa

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2015, 01:40:28 PM »
I rarely give money to charity for several reasons. The first is that I live in a high tax country with a very comfortable welfare system. Regarding global charity the available data does simply not support the assumption that more charity equals less suffering. Countries that received a lot have not developed better than their peers that received less. Apparently there are several reasons for this among of which are local corruption, the fact that foreign aid relieves the local administration from its most basic obligations, foreign NGOs attracting 90% of highly educated locals who otherwise maybe could have founded viable businesses etc.  Meaning to do good is easy. Actually doing good much less so. The biggest charity that does systematically analyse the effectiveness of its programms only takes money from billionaires. The single most important step in reducing suffering would be the reduction of birth rates. I have searched for a charity specifically sponsoring small families in contries with high birth rates and have found none. Any links would be appreciated.

Among the few donations I made was one to a local shelter for girls fleeing from forced marriages. Those girls are failed by our government and a private initiative sheltering and counseling them obviously does a lot of good and no harm. I am going to give to them again this year.

What I do not get is the 'give x% or admit you are a selfish jerk!' attitude. Even if I gave zero money I still would have changed a few lifes for the better, including two  grand-aunts suffering from dementia who's insurance I bullied/sued into paying. Or my neighbor kid from a troubled background whom me and SO babysitted for free.

The evidence of anecdote is not data, but in my experience the 'holier than thou' crowd quite often can't be bothered to do the most simple acts of kindness in daily life.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 02:09:10 PM by Lyssa »

Cookie78

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2015, 01:47:26 PM »
However, billions have been spent over decades of time 'helping' the poor in Africa, for instance, and yet I don't really see and evidence that that aid has helped make any lasting changes for the better.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but statistically there have been incredible changes for the better for many African (and other) countries, some of which no longer require aid. It is a controversial topic though, whether aid helps or hinders. I'm no expert, but I took a course where we had to learn a lot about both sides of the equation. I found it fascinating and learned a lot about what types of aid help (ie: not throwing money at a problem, but involving the locals and asking them what they need) and what the downsides are.

BMEPhDinCO

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2015, 02:06:13 PM »
What an interesting approach everyone here has to "charity". Personally, as a grad student making little, with a husband making less as well, we just don't have a ton of money right now.  So we do the time approach... I help find dogs foster homes or permanent homes (that costs me extra in gas, time, etc) as well as helping transport dogs to new homes (driving, gas costs, time).

I also use smile.amazon.com when I shop there, I go to www.thebreastcancersite.greatergood.com and click on those regularly, I go to http://www.freekibblekat.com/ and click there...

A lot of the discussion so far has revolved around humans - what about other options? The environment, animals, etc...

I say do what you can, increase as your life allows, and educate those around you to do their best as well.

resy

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2015, 02:17:45 PM »
Basically I hear you saying you don't want to do it, and then attempting to justify your position with other reasons. Like someone said in another thread regarding marketing/sales - people buy on emotion and then use other means to justify their purchase.

Yet I don't hear anything but emotional reasons for giving.
Good point. How about: no one has anything purely because of their own efforts alone (Malcolm Gladwell dives into this in one of his books if you are interested), it's a combination of a variety of factors, many of which we have no influence/control of. So. Doesn't it seem that to keep things balanced the ppl that are the lucky recipients of such good factors (a stable economy, help from parents, etc) kinda "pays it forward" a bit by helping others some? it is emotional but so is not murdering and that sort of thing...

Prairie Stash

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2015, 02:29:31 PM »
Why do so many people feel the need to boast about their charitable givings? What's wrong with keeping it private?

Just because I don't brag doesn't mean it's not happening.

Villanelle

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2015, 02:33:17 PM »
Basically I hear you saying you don't want to do it, and then attempting to justify your position with other reasons. Like someone said in another thread regarding marketing/sales - people buy on emotion and then use other means to justify their purchase.

Yet I don't hear anything but emotional reasons for giving.
Good point. How about: no one has anything purely because of their own efforts alone (Malcolm Gladwell dives into this in one of his books if you are interested), it's a combination of a variety of factors, many of which we have no influence/control of. So. Doesn't it seem that to keep things balanced the ppl that are the lucky recipients of such good factors (a stable economy, help from parents, etc) kinda "pays it forward" a bit by helping others some? it is emotional but so is not murdering and that sort of thing...

And donating money to charity is the only way to "pay it forward"?  The hours I spend every week volunteering at the library mean nothing, according to some of the posts here at least.  Being a good friend and daughter, always willing to listen doesn't count.  Helping the lady next door shovel her sidewalk doesn't matter.  It has to be cash, or we are greedy, selfish asses who don't know how good we've got it and don't care about our fellow man.

lizzie

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2015, 02:39:08 PM »
Just because I don't brag doesn't mean it's not happening.

I see what you did there.

resy

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2015, 02:42:30 PM »
Basically I hear you saying you don't want to do it, and then attempting to justify your position with other reasons. Like someone said in another thread regarding marketing/sales - people buy on emotion and then use other means to justify their purchase.

Yet I don't hear anything but emotional reasons for giving.
Good point. How about: no one has anything purely because of their own efforts alone (Malcolm Gladwell dives into this in one of his books if you are interested), it's a combination of a variety of factors, many of which we have no influence/control of. So. Doesn't it seem that to keep things balanced the ppl that are the lucky recipients of such good factors (a stable economy, help from parents, etc) kinda "pays it forward" a bit by helping others some? it is emotional but so is not murdering and that sort of thing...

And donating money to charity is the only way to "pay it forward"?  The hours I spend every week volunteering at the library mean nothing, according to some of the posts here at least.  Being a good friend and daughter, always willing to listen doesn't count.  Helping the lady next door shovel her sidewalk doesn't matter.  It has to be cash, or we are greedy, selfish asses who don't know how good we've got it and don't care about our fellow man.
Nope, doesnt have to be cash and you may have missed something from me if you believe thats what I meant. There are MANY ways to DO charity (note: not only give).
my last post you commented on way geared towards ppl that feel they dont have to help anyone ever, which to my amazement there are plenty of ppl, not towards ppl that give what they can (I currently cant afford to gibe much so I too do what I can). Sorry if u took that personal in some way, it wasnt and wasnt geared towards what u describe u do.

minority_finance_mo

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2015, 02:44:49 PM »
I donate plenty to charity.  The people who don't may make excuses for themselves, but they are really just selfish and cold-hearted.

It is not individuals responsibility to take care of the less fortunate. It is the governments. We sign over certain rights, liberties, and money to the government in order for them to take care of society as a whole. 

My responsibility is to ensure I do not require "charity". My will will provide for charitable giving because at that point I won't need my money anymore.

I guess that makes me selfish and cold hearted.

In the past, individuals would giving "tithings" to the church in the form of a 10th of their income. The church would then allocate portions of that money to people in dire circumstances and in need, acting as a de facto safety net. In today's society, government has taken on that safety net role, and we all tithe in the form of taxes (of which 50+% go to social safety nets and transfers). A point can be made that you're contributing to charity every time you pay the tax man. Everything else is in excess of that.

resy

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2015, 02:46:48 PM »
So a major misconception keeps popping up on this thread, that to do good you have to give cash to a stablished chatity. Thats bullshit. If you are afraid they'll mismanage the funds then go and buy food for the foodbank yourself, donate time, etc. whatever rocks your boat, the point is to show compassion one way or another and help out when possible.
charity is a VERB not an establishment.

James

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2015, 02:49:15 PM »

I do my own thing, support who I want to support, volunteer the time, etc. I don't think MMM exists to answer the specific question of charitable donations, and the lifestyle certainly allows for those priorities to exist. Just like MMM has a larger house than needed given their family size, we each have places we spend that other MMMers don't.


I think instead of asking "why do MMMers skip charity", ask a specific question about charity, discuss how much you are donating, and in general just look for a meaningful specific discussion that would be helpful instead of challenging the whole lifestyle to have a stand on the issue. A meaningful discussion is great, but I think this is too broad a question to generate meaningful discussion.

Emilyngh

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2015, 02:50:50 PM »

Just because I don't brag doesn't mean it's not happening.

And some people are so humble that they'd not even brag about not bragging about their charity giving.    Clearly that would include neither of us.

Cookie78

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2015, 02:52:05 PM »
So a major misconception keeps popping up on this thread, that to do good you have to give cash to a stablished chatity. Thats bullshit. If you are afraid they'll mismanage the funds then go and buy food for the foodbank yourself, donate time, etc. whatever rocks your boat, the point is to show compassion one way or another and help out when possible.
charity is a VERB not an establishment.

I agree with your point of view.
But I got that 'misconception' from the original poster, who implied that donating time was not enough/equivalent:

I've often heard the line "I give my time instead of money." Charities need both. It is really awesome that you give your time, but don't act like that is a 1:1 replacement for cold, hard cash. The blind orphanage appreciates me stopping by, as do the kids, but they needed food more than they needed my presence. Time does not replace money, nor does money replace time.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2015, 02:56:59 PM »
Just because I don't brag doesn't mean it's not happening.

I see what you did there.
Lol, good point. It was a poorly written post.

I should have written something about assuming.

iris lily

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2015, 03:02:08 PM »
...
I can understand your position and right oodles about it. But we cannot control the outcome. We can only do are part.
And while I do not mean to get all spiritual, as Mother Teresa believes:

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered.  Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.  Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies.  Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you.  Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight.  Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous.  Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten.  Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough.  Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway.

This is great, lessons to be remembered.

But I am still giving to animals charities, the humans can go get handouts from Nanny G. I guess that when all of the animal and architectural/historic efforts that I like are fully funded, I will move on to human charities. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Someone upthread mentioned wastefulness of food donations.  Well, a few years ago I dug boxes and boxes of canned goods out of a dumpster in the alley. It all came from the Section 8 tenant on the block, I know, because she talked to me about it. 80 some cans, and also there were perishables. I distinctly remember organic orange juice and organic milk. Jesus H Christ, I don't buy that stuff. But I am glad that food bank recipients can toss them. We are a rich country indeed.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 03:08:04 PM by iris lily »

Baron235

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2015, 03:05:46 PM »




If someone wants to give some, most or all of their money to a charity...go for it.
Doesn't make them any better, than someone who chooses not to.

Actually that fact may make them better than someone who chooses not to.  Two people where everything else is equal I think the better person would be the one who give more money to charity.

Cookie78

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2015, 03:08:31 PM »
Someone upthread mentioned wastefulness of food donations.  Well, a few years ago I dug boxes and boxes of canned goods out of a dumpster in the alley. It all came from the Section 8 tenant on the blocks, I know, because she talked to me about it. 80 some cans, and also there were perishable. I distinctly remember organic orange juice and organic milk. Jesus H Christ, I don't buy that stuff. But I am glad that food bank recipients can toss them. We are a rich country indeed.

This reminds me of when my cousin worked at the homeless shelter one year. One particularly cold winter day I went to pick her up at work and she was telling me that they only give out one blanket per person per week. The reason was because if they gave out a new blanket each day, the recipients would often just toss the blanket throughout the day and come back that night for a new one. It makes me sad to think of my grandmother and her friends spending hours making blankets to donate to the homeless so they can just be tossed out.

NorCal

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
I give back through taxes.  My taxes are more than my annual spending on my entire family, so I am certainly financially contributing more than a "fair share" (however you choose to define that).

Would I rather give to causes of my choosing?  Absolutely.  But through our peculiar system of government, our politicians have determined which causes deserve my money the most.

johnny847

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2015, 03:20:08 PM »
I give back through taxes.  My taxes are more than my annual spending on my entire family, so I am certainly financially contributing more than a "fair share" (however you choose to define that).

Would I rather give to causes of my choosing?  Absolutely.  But through our peculiar system of government, our politicians have determined which causes deserve my money the most.
That's what cool to me about GA's qualified education expense credit. Because it's a nonrefundable tax credit that matches dollar for dollar my contribution to a student scholarship organization (up to a cap), it has the effect of redirecting a portion of the taxes I've paid to a school of my choice.

neil

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2015, 03:37:33 PM »
I would rather FI and donate time, or at least at a minimum have the time to direct my extra resources

Chuck

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Re: Why Do Many MMMers Skip Charity?
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2015, 04:16:11 PM »
Quote
Why do so many people who can save & make so much money feel that it is OK not to give back?

Because we live in the age of the modern welfare state. A sizable portion of my income goes to taxes that pay for food, housing and cash subsidies to the poor.