Author Topic: Who else here is a libertarian?  (Read 26656 times)

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2016, 10:55:47 PM »

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not at all.  You might as well say that any position other than anarchism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to communism. 

There are different logical conclusions you could reach following libertarian philosophy, and one of the them is that government should do nothing other than provide public goods and protect the negative rights of its citizens. 

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2016, 06:47:24 AM »

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not at all.  You might as well say that any position other than anarchism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to communism. 

There are different logical conclusions you could reach following libertarian philosophy, and one of the them is that government should do nothing other than provide public goods and protect the negative rights of its citizens. 
But how does it provide "public goods" without taxation?  How does it "protect the negative rights" without taxation?  If logically consistent - it must lead to anarchism.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2016, 10:36:18 AM »

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not at all.  You might as well say that any position other than anarchism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to communism. 

There are different logical conclusions you could reach following libertarian philosophy, and one of the them is that government should do nothing other than provide public goods and protect the negative rights of its citizens. 
But how does it provide "public goods" without taxation?  How does it "protect the negative rights" without taxation?  If logically consistent - it must lead to anarchism.
Most libertarians want to eliminate income tax, but not taxes completely, for instance Gary Johnson is a proponent of eliminating the income tax and having a consumption tax, Ron Paul is a proponent of getting rid of the income tax and just keeping the rest of our taxes. They both also want to reduce spending a lot, to reduce the need for taxes, but neither of them want to entirely get rid of taxes or the entire government, and I'd say they are the two most prominent libertarians currently.

My self, I'm a libertarian that wants to keep the income tax.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2016, 01:52:32 PM »

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not at all.  You might as well say that any position other than anarchism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to communism. 

There are different logical conclusions you could reach following libertarian philosophy, and one of the them is that government should do nothing other than provide public goods and protect the negative rights of its citizens. 
But how does it provide "public goods" without taxation?  How does it "protect the negative rights" without taxation?  If logically consistent - it must lead to anarchism.
Most libertarians want to eliminate income tax, but not taxes completely, for instance Gary Johnson is a proponent of eliminating the income tax and having a consumption tax, Ron Paul is a proponent of getting rid of the income tax and just keeping the rest of our taxes. They both also want to reduce spending a lot, to reduce the need for taxes, but neither of them want to entirely get rid of taxes or the entire government, and I'd say they are the two most prominent libertarians currently.

My self, I'm a libertarian that wants to keep the income tax.
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it. 

Jeremy E.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2016, 02:27:39 PM »

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.


No, not at all.  You might as well say that any position other than anarchism, taken to its logical conclusion, leads to communism. 

There are different logical conclusions you could reach following libertarian philosophy, and one of the them is that government should do nothing other than provide public goods and protect the negative rights of its citizens. 
But how does it provide "public goods" without taxation?  How does it "protect the negative rights" without taxation?  If logically consistent - it must lead to anarchism.
Most libertarians want to eliminate income tax, but not taxes completely, for instance Gary Johnson is a proponent of eliminating the income tax and having a consumption tax, Ron Paul is a proponent of getting rid of the income tax and just keeping the rest of our taxes. They both also want to reduce spending a lot, to reduce the need for taxes, but neither of them want to entirely get rid of taxes or the entire government, and I'd say they are the two most prominent libertarians currently.

My self, I'm a libertarian that wants to keep the income tax.
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it.
If we're just talking about theories, I'm sure you'd love the theory of communism, but this is reality and I think the US needs to move a lot closer to libertarian than where it is now.

dividendman

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2016, 02:42:53 PM »
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it.

That's not true. At a minimum, libertarianism requires a robust court system that must be funded with taxes. Why? Because most disputes would be handled between individuals rather than the government acting on behalf of the people.

For example, in an extremely libertarian world, there would be no pollution regulations. However, one of the key aspects of libertarianism is that you are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others. So, there would be lawsuits galore about the affects of pollution and people/companies would be forced to pay.

You would also need an army, police, jails, etc. that would need to be funded by taxes. 

You wouldn't necessarily need the departments of: agriculture, education, commerce, energy, HHS, HUD, Interior, Labor, Transportation, Treasury, or Veterans affairs.

You would need the departments of Defense, Homeland Security and Justice. So, still a government and not anarchy.


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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2016, 02:45:49 PM »
Me.  Still hoping for the 4 years of Ron Paul that this country needs.

Don't hold your breath...  :(

I am closest to libertarian than any other.  There quite a few of us on here...
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jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2016, 03:46:47 PM »
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it.

That's not true. At a minimum, libertarianism requires a robust court system that must be funded with taxes. Why? Because most disputes would be handled between individuals rather than the government acting on behalf of the people.

For example, in an extremely libertarian world, there would be no pollution regulations. However, one of the key aspects of libertarianism is that you are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others. So, there would be lawsuits galore about the affects of pollution and people/companies would be forced to pay.

You would also need an army, police, jails, etc. that would need to be funded by taxes. 

You wouldn't necessarily need the departments of: agriculture, education, commerce, energy, HHS, HUD, Interior, Labor, Transportation, Treasury, or Veterans affairs.

You would need the departments of Defense, Homeland Security and Justice. So, still a government and not anarchy.
What your describing can't be squared with libertarianism (small "L").  If taxation is theft, then it can have no exceptions.  What if I am a pacifist and refuse to pay taxes for courts or police, what will you do to me?  We all know the answer to that.  Your system is not libertarian, sorry.

Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2016, 04:14:11 PM »
Wouldn't need a department of Interior.  Let's run that one to ground as it's in my area of expertise.   So - lets say then the lands owned by the US government - BLM, USFS, Park Service, etc. then have no employees.  Opening act - rape and pillage.  Folks just go in and start mining, hunting, grazing, and logging with no restrictions. 

Oh - lemme guess - these lands would be turned over to private entities who, though the goodness of their hearts, would manage them as good as these public agencies.  If not, we could sue them.   

Unicorn land.

wenchsenior

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2016, 04:34:42 PM »
Wouldn't need a department of Interior.  Let's run that one to ground as it's in my area of expertise.   So - lets say then the lands owned by the US government - BLM, USFS, Park Service, etc. then have no employees.  Opening act - rape and pillage.  Folks just go in and start mining, hunting, grazing, and logging with no restrictions. 

Oh - lemme guess - these lands would be turned over to private entities who, though the goodness of their hearts, would manage them as good as these public agencies.  If not, we could sue them.   

Unicorn land.

That scenario right there is the reason that even a hint of a Lib candidate getting into a position of real national power fills me with skin-crawling horror. As someone whose primary voting interest is in maintaining the health of ecological systems, I immediately envision an army of private companies buying access to formerly public land. If even one company gets even temporary access to e.g., an intact old growth forest, they could have it completely destroyed in a matter of days. An entire ecosystem (and all of its obligate species) just fucking wiped out.  Even in the best-managed recovery scenario in the world, it would take hundreds of years to restore it, if you ever could.

The problem is, so many species and ecosystems can be damaged so severely (sometimes irrevocably) in such a short amount of time. If profit is the motive, and it usually is because humanity is gross, Libs in power would result in absolute decimation of natural resources.

Oops, sorry we got first dibs on this public land, formerly under federal management for sustainability and multiple use. We mined it and left toxic contamination all over. Guess you better sue us now? FUCK that noise.   

Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2016, 04:43:36 PM »
Luckily the Libertarian flame-throwers have about as much chance of gaining power as say, I know, Mr. Trump.   Actually much, much less.   Thank Dog.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 04:59:23 PM by Northwestie »

libertarian4321

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2016, 04:50:12 PM »
I'm a long-time Libertarian and will certainly be voting for Gary Johnson, not either of the national embarrassments (Hillary and Trump).

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2016, 04:52:08 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2016, 05:18:30 PM »
Libertarians are really not as crazy as you want to believe they are.

Do they want to get rid of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid?   (or Dept of Interior or ...) 

First off: you really don't have to worry about us.  We're small.  We're infinitesimally small.  We're not getting elected.
Secondly: We're not (necessarily) stupid or heartless.  Any plan to dismember Social Security (for example) would likely be a many-decades phase out.  People that paid into it, would get the pay out.  Period.

Personally, if we as a nation could accomplish the following, I'd be so ecstatic that I'd have to change underwear:
* phase out (quickly this time!) war where we are not absolutely directly in the firing line.
* stop giving welfare to rich people.  This means huge corporate handouts (no matter what their political affiliation is).  In a lesser sense, this probably affects the ER community with things like income tax deductions for big ass houses and a big portion of health care subsidies.  Yes, this bites me.  I'm okay with it.
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marty998

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2016, 05:27:25 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

A bit over the top no?

Personally I'm not sure you could ever get one Libertarian to speak / be a leader on behalf of all. The point of Libertarianism to me is that there is a diversity of views and ways you can live your life that are tolerated and encouraged.

Hard for a political party to keep free thinkers under control :D

Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2016, 05:28:09 PM »

Personally, if we as a nation could accomplish the following, I'd be so ecstatic that I'd have to change underwear:
* phase out (quickly this time!) war where we are not absolutely directly in the firing line.
* stop giving welfare to rich people.  This means huge corporate handouts (no matter what their political affiliation is).  In a lesser sense, this probably affects the ER community with things like income tax deductions for big ass houses and a big portion of health care subsidies.  Yes, this bites me.  I'm okay with it.

I think most folks - of either party, would say these are good places to start. It's just when I look at the libertarian platform they put forward there's a host of other items that make me cringe.

libertarian4321

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2016, 05:30:48 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

Oh please.

The USA functioned for ~160 years without the social insecurity system.  I assure you, there were not "scores of elderly dying in the streets" prior to 1935 (the start of the social insecurity system).

Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2016, 05:31:18 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

A bit over the top no?



No.  From the current Libertarian Presidential Platform:

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

Spork

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2016, 05:34:05 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

A bit over the top no?



No.  From the current Libertarian Presidential Platform:

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

You bolded the part that said "phase out".  It's right there. 

I don't mean to be a dickhead.  But you're trolling.  The point of the thread is "hey, friends, who's a libertarian, let's be friends."
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Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2016, 05:36:01 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

Oh please.

The USA functioned for ~160 years without the social insecurity system.  I assure you, there were not "scores of elderly dying in the streets" prior to 1935 (the start of the social insecurity system).

Almost 90 percent of people aged 65 and older receive some of their family income from Social Security.   Without Social Security benefits, 44.4 percent of elderly Americans would have incomes below the official poverty line, all else being equal; with Social Security benefits, only 9.1 percent do.  These benefits lift 15.3 million elderly Americans — including 9.0 million women — above the poverty line.

In addition - prior to SS, folks worked much longer.  Then about 60% of men worked past the age of 66 - now that is about 16%.   Society as a whole has decided the dog-eat-dog model works better for some than others and one measure of our integrity is how we treat the less fortunate among us. 

Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2016, 05:38:30 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!

A bit over the top no?



No.  From the current Libertarian Presidential Platform:

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

You bolded the part that said "phase out".  It's right there. 

I don't mean to be a dickhead.  But you're trolling.  The point of the thread is "hey, friends, who's a libertarian, let's be friends."

No - the intention was to point out that yes - one of the party platforms is to get rid of social security - it says so on the current website.  I never said anything about cutting it immediately - did I?   Just that I think getting rid of SS is not an idea worthy of consideration. 

Jeremy E.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2016, 05:39:08 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!
Yep, if libertarian is elected president, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will be instantly abolished and everyone will let elderly just die in the streets.
Lets disect this a little bit.... First off, presidents don't have the power to abolish social security, medicare or medicaid. They can at best, sign a bill that abolishes them, but because half the republicans and all the democrats are okay with those social programs, that won't happen. Secondly, people are not so cold blooded that they would just let elderly die in the streets anyways, it's even federal law that hospitals have to help people, regardless of whether or not they can pay.

Most libertarians are not so hardcore that they want to completely abolish the government or taxes, and assuming that all libertarians agree completely to the hardcore theory and every policy within is ludicrous.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2016, 06:02:47 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!
Yep, if libertarian is elected president, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will be instantly abolished and everyone will let elderly just die in the streets.
Lets disect this a little bit.... First off, presidents don't have the power to abolish social security, medicare or medicaid. They can at best, sign a bill that abolishes them, but because half the republicans and all the democrats are okay with those social programs, that won't happen. Secondly, people are not so cold blooded that they would just let elderly die in the streets anyways, it's even federal law that hospitals have to help people, regardless of whether or not they can pay.

Most libertarians are not so hardcore that they want to completely abolish the government or taxes, and assuming that all libertarians agree completely to the hardcore theory and every policy within is ludicrous.

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Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2016, 06:40:34 PM »

No - the intention was to point out that yes - one of the party platforms is to get rid of social security - it says so on the current website.  I never said anything about cutting it immediately - did I?   Just that I think getting rid of SS is not an idea worthy of consideration.


The statistics you site earlier are based on an entire generation that paid into SS and have been told their entire lives it'll be there. Meanwhile, they reaped the benefits of their government spending it as it came in. They've bet their retirements on it being there.

Social security is and continues to be one of the largest generational thefts in history. It's also a massive hidden tax. The money is paid into the general fund and spent. If someone dies before they collect a dime, the government keeps everything, they already spent, and all of the wealth and production is stolen from their heirs. Also, it's a massive cudgel for the Federal government to use as a balckmail tool to collect information and money from private citizens.

Also, it's going bankrupt. BREAKING NEWS! THIS JUST IN! the government needs more money to run one of it's programs.
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dignam

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2016, 05:47:18 AM »
^ Ah, don't get my blood boiling about SS...as a reluctant Millennial, I've been told my whole life that I will not see as big a chunk of SS as I put into it.  Basically I've been told "Sorry, better luck next time!"

From my paycheck far before I was into politics at all; the thought of a government program saving MY money for ME just rubbed me the wrong way.  I was 14 at the time.  Cherry on top is Boomers are going to dry up the fund so we're left with something like 75% of what we were promised (I think Gen X is in trouble too as the payments will diminish starting around 2034 unless big changes happen).

But I digress with my complaining.  I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about libertarianism.  Part of the problem is there is no clear definition of what it means; it varies by source.  No one in their right mind thinks instantly abolishing government programs is a good idea.  There are definitely some programs/agencies I think should remain; the EPA and FAA (well, Dept. of Transportation mostly) are a couple examples.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 05:51:46 AM by dignam »

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2016, 10:21:34 AM »
  There are definitely some programs/agencies I think should remain; the EPA and FAA (well, Dept. of Transportation mostly) are a couple examples.

I'd abolish the DOT as an unnecessary burden on states' rights and taxpayers. I'd also gut the DOD.

I'm only partially joking as I'm more of a "statist." However, this is the problem. Everyone has a favorite department that is sacrosanct.

dividendman

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2016, 11:33:59 AM »
Wouldn't need a department of Interior.  Let's run that one to ground as it's in my area of expertise.   So - lets say then the lands owned by the US government - BLM, USFS, Park Service, etc. then have no employees.  Opening act - rape and pillage.  Folks just go in and start mining, hunting, grazing, and logging with no restrictions. 

Oh - lemme guess - these lands would be turned over to private entities who, though the goodness of their hearts, would manage them as good as these public agencies.  If not, we could sue them.   

Unicorn land.


That scenario right there is the reason that even a hint of a Lib candidate getting into a position of real national power fills me with skin-crawling horror. As someone whose primary voting interest is in maintaining the health of ecological systems, I immediately envision an army of private companies buying access to formerly public land. If even one company gets even temporary access to e.g., an intact old growth forest, they could have it completely destroyed in a matter of days. An entire ecosystem (and all of its obligate species) just fucking wiped out.  Even in the best-managed recovery scenario in the world, it would take hundreds of years to restore it, if you ever could.

The problem is, so many species and ecosystems can be damaged so severely (sometimes irrevocably) in such a short amount of time. If profit is the motive, and it usually is because humanity is gross, Libs in power would result in absolute decimation of natural resources.

Oops, sorry we got first dibs on this public land, formerly under federal management for sustainability and multiple use. We mined it and left toxic contamination all over. Guess you better sue us now? FUCK that noise.

Except I didn't say abolish the department of the interior. I said in the most extreme libertarian views you may not necessarily have those federal departments. I was countering the claim that someone made saying libertarian means anarchy. I was saying you must have a DoD and DoJ at a minimum, so not anarchy.

Most libertarians would not abolish most departments.

To me it's plane with two axes where we can fit politically. The x axis can be fiscal liberal(left)/conservative(right) and the y axis can be social liberal(up)/conservative(down). If you are in the upper right quadrant (socially liberal, fiscally conservative) in such a chart you're a libertarian of some degree to me. So, there are levels of extreme in that quadrant on both axes. Most people are not extreme on either axis.

Democrats fall mostly into the fiscal liberal and socially liberal top left quadrant.
Republicans fall mostly into the fiscal conservative (at least with how they talk) and socially conservative bottom right quadrant.

A fascist state/party that wants to impose both social and fiscal policy goes into the bottom left quadrant - think North Korea on the far left and down on the chart.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2016, 03:04:07 PM »
Wouldn't need a department of Interior.  Let's run that one to ground as it's in my area of expertise.   So - lets say then the lands owned by the US government - BLM, USFS, Park Service, etc. then have no employees.  Opening act - rape and pillage.  Folks just go in and start mining, hunting, grazing, and logging with no restrictions. 

Oh - lemme guess - these lands would be turned over to private entities who, though the goodness of their hearts, would manage them as good as these public agencies.  If not, we could sue them.   

Unicorn land.


That scenario right there is the reason that even a hint of a Lib candidate getting into a position of real national power fills me with skin-crawling horror. As someone whose primary voting interest is in maintaining the health of ecological systems, I immediately envision an army of private companies buying access to formerly public land. If even one company gets even temporary access to e.g., an intact old growth forest, they could have it completely destroyed in a matter of days. An entire ecosystem (and all of its obligate species) just fucking wiped out.  Even in the best-managed recovery scenario in the world, it would take hundreds of years to restore it, if you ever could.

The problem is, so many species and ecosystems can be damaged so severely (sometimes irrevocably) in such a short amount of time. If profit is the motive, and it usually is because humanity is gross, Libs in power would result in absolute decimation of natural resources.

Oops, sorry we got first dibs on this public land, formerly under federal management for sustainability and multiple use. We mined it and left toxic contamination all over. Guess you better sue us now? FUCK that noise.

Except I didn't say abolish the department of the interior. I said in the most extreme libertarian views you may not necessarily have those federal departments. I was countering the claim that someone made saying libertarian means anarchy. I was saying you must have a DoD and DoJ at a minimum, so not anarchy.

Most libertarians would not abolish most departments.

To me it's plane with two axes where we can fit politically. The x axis can be fiscal liberal(left)/conservative(right) and the y axis can be social liberal(up)/conservative(down). If you are in the upper right quadrant (socially liberal, fiscally conservative) in such a chart you're a libertarian of some degree to me. So, there are levels of extreme in that quadrant on both axes. Most people are not extreme on either axis.

Democrats fall mostly into the fiscal liberal and socially liberal top left quadrant.
Republicans fall mostly into the fiscal conservative (at least with how they talk) and socially conservative bottom right quadrant.

A fascist state/party that wants to impose both social and fiscal policy goes into the bottom left quadrant - think North Korea on the far left and down on the chart.

I would not put US Democrats and Republicans in opposite corners. They both have pretty serious authoritarian streaks.

l2jperry

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2016, 03:40:09 PM »
Another libertarian here unaffiliated with any party, but Gary Johnson will be getting my vote this year.

Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2016, 04:12:09 PM »
I would not put US Democrats and Republicans in opposite corners. They both have pretty serious authoritarian streaks.
Agree.  That four corner chart describes the ideal, but the truth is that most capital D Democrats and capital R Republicans are just authoritarians in different wolf's clothing.  Go try to be non-PC on a college campus and see what happens to your "freedom of speech."  And Republicans are falling over themselves to spend more of other people's money to prove how compassionate they are.

The problem we have is that most people don't get the concept that if you don't protect other people's rights to do what they want (within the limit of not interfering with the rights of others), even if they're doing things you don't like (say, discrimination by private individuals), then those others have just as much ability to interfere with you doing the things that YOU want.  So if I want to fight discrimination in a free society (and I do), the best way to do it isn't to force other individuals to do what I think they should do at the point of a gun, because then they'll just turn around and do the same thing to me on some other issue where they have the might and the majority.  The libertarian philosophy is that the best way to change society is to use economic pressure and moral suasion to change people's minds and practices rather than force.  Obviously, of course, the devil is in the details.  But that's the general principle.

(Note: It's important to differentiate between what the government does and what the individual does.  The government, precisely because it possesses a monopoly on force, must NEVER be permitted to discriminate.  But unfortunately, allowing people to make free decisions means that some individuals may indeed choose to discriminate or otherwise behave abominably.  And yes, in order for me to have the freedom to make moral decisions without coercion, I have to grant others the right to make immoral choices, and I must accept that sometimes they will choose to do so.)

MoneyCat

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2016, 04:44:48 PM »

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2016, 05:04:18 PM »


Detroit: After 100 years of prevailing wages and a Democratic stronghold, it's borderline paradise!
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
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“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

MoneyCat

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2016, 06:18:36 PM »


Detroit: After 100 years of prevailing wages and a Democratic stronghold, it's borderline paradise!

Democrats are always better than Republicans by pretty much every measure. Here are some charts to help you understand this: http://politicsthatwork.com/blog/which-party-is-better-for-the-economy.php

Good thing we have Democrats around to be Libertarians' parents before they get themselves into trouble.

Cwadda

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2016, 06:56:05 PM »
I'm a libertarian and will be voting for Gary Johnson. Confirmed, no more questions.

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2016, 07:48:21 PM »


Detroit: After 100 years of prevailing wages and a Democratic stronghold, it's borderline paradise!

Democrats are always better than Republicans by pretty much every measure. Here are some charts to help you understand this: http://politicsthatwork.com/blog/which-party-is-better-for-the-economy.php

Good thing we have Democrats around to be Libertarians' parents before they get themselves into trouble.

Good thing we're not talking about Republicans. A deflection into an ad hominem.

I'm just so glad we've got all of this government around to take care of us. If we didn't no one would have a job!
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
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“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

MoneyCat

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2016, 08:03:59 PM »


Detroit: After 100 years of prevailing wages and a Democratic stronghold, it's borderline paradise!

Democrats are always better than Republicans by pretty much every measure. Here are some charts to help you understand this: http://politicsthatwork.com/blog/which-party-is-better-for-the-economy.php

Good thing we have Democrats around to be Libertarians' parents before they get themselves into trouble.

Good thing we're not talking about Republicans. A deflection into an ad hominem.

I'm just so glad we've got all of this government around to take care of us. If we didn't no one would have a job!

Libertarians are just Republicans without religion who don't think George W. Bush went far enough. Everyone knows that.

Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2016, 07:02:48 AM »
Democrats are always better than Republicans by pretty much every measure. Here are some charts to help you understand this: http://politicsthatwork.com/blog/which-party-is-better-for-the-economy.php

Good thing we have Democrats around to be Libertarians' parents before they get themselves into trouble.
Dude, you're welcome to your own opinions, and feel free to start an anti-libertarian thread if that's your thing.  But I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop trolling in mine.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2016, 07:12:12 AM »
If everyone was environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful, etc., then yes we could have a more (not entirely) libertarian system.  But people aren't like that. Many people are really messed up. People are going to fail to save for retirement. Do we let them die on the streets? People who should NEVER be parents will have kids, sometimes tons of them! Who feeds those kids when the parents don't? People will be selfish and shoot for short-term economic gain instead of caring about the greater good (i.e, the health of our planet). Someone has to inspect food, water, air, etc., to make sure it's safe.

I read the Libertarian party platform. I don't see how people can get behind those ideas, given the imperfect world we live in.


Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2016, 08:12:46 AM »
If everyone was environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful, etc., then yes we could have a more (not entirely) libertarian system.  But people aren't like that. Many people are really messed up. People are going to fail to save for retirement. Do we let them die on the streets? People who should NEVER be parents will have kids, sometimes tons of them! Who feeds those kids when the parents don't? People will be selfish and shoot for short-term economic gain instead of caring about the greater good (i.e, the health of our planet). Someone has to inspect food, water, air, etc., to make sure it's safe.

I read the Libertarian party platform. I don't see how people can get behind those ideas, given the imperfect world we live in.

So, let's see if I get this right.  If every individual shared your exact ideals, then you'd be "OK"  with limited government.  Since that's not the case, we need more government to use force to make others share your ideals.

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2016, 08:18:55 AM »
If we're just talking about theories, I'm sure you'd love the theory of communism, but this is reality and I think the US needs to move a lot closer to libertarian than where it is now.

Can you point to a few of the model Libertarian countries you're basing your comment on?

I tend to view Libertarianism as being well towards the extreme end of the capitalism side of the capitalism-communism spectrum.  The United States is already pretty far towards the capitalist side than most other developed countries.  My experience has led me to believe that it's generally better to be somewhere in the middle of that scale rather than pushing towards either extreme, so I'd be interested in hearing why you think libertarianism would be significantly helpful for your country.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2016, 08:29:39 AM »
If everyone was environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful, etc., then yes we could have a more (not entirely) libertarian system.  But people aren't like that. Many people are really messed up. People are going to fail to save for retirement. Do we let them die on the streets? People who should NEVER be parents will have kids, sometimes tons of them! Who feeds those kids when the parents don't? People will be selfish and shoot for short-term economic gain instead of caring about the greater good (i.e, the health of our planet). Someone has to inspect food, water, air, etc., to make sure it's safe.

I read the Libertarian party platform. I don't see how people can get behind those ideas, given the imperfect world we live in.

So, let's see if I get this right.  If every individual shared your exact ideals, then you'd be "OK"  with limited government.  Since that's not the case, we need more government to use force to make others share your ideals.

Uh, I was just describing decent people. I honestly didn't know "environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful" people were some sort of outlier group.

But yes, for the record, I have no interest in living in some sort of wild west environment with a bunch of destructive, insane, lazy, violent people (see I flipped them all around) with no government control over said people.


Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2016, 09:27:16 AM »
If everyone was environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful, etc., then yes we could have a more (not entirely) libertarian system.  But people aren't like that. Many people are really messed up. People are going to fail to save for retirement. Do we let them die on the streets? People who should NEVER be parents will have kids, sometimes tons of them! Who feeds those kids when the parents don't? People will be selfish and shoot for short-term economic gain instead of caring about the greater good (i.e, the health of our planet). Someone has to inspect food, water, air, etc., to make sure it's safe.

I read the Libertarian party platform. I don't see how people can get behind those ideas, given the imperfect world we live in.

So, let's see if I get this right.  If every individual shared your exact ideals, then you'd be "OK"  with limited government.  Since that's not the case, we need more government to use force to make others share your ideals.

Uh, I was just describing decent people. I honestly didn't know "environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful" people were some sort of outlier group.

But yes, for the record, I have no interest in living in some sort of wild west environment with a bunch of destructive, insane, lazy, violent people (see I flipped them all around) with no government control over said people.

Libertarian is an interesting idea on the commune level - but the model isn't expandable to a state-wide, never-the-less country-wide level.  And the failure of its adherents to explain how it could be is the reason it still sits in the discards of political thought.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2016, 09:40:20 AM »
Libertarian is an interesting idea on the commune level - but the model isn't expandable to a state-wide, never-the-less country-wide level.  And the failure of its adherents to explain how it could be is the reason it still sits in the discards of political thought.

I would agree with this statement.  My original post in this thread spoke of how there probably has to be more government to maintain order and fair play in modern society than I'd prefer. libertarianism in a pure form would likely fail in any large, heterogeneous society of sufficient complexity.   However, it doesn't change my opinion that both of the political parties in the US have moved too far down the large gov't & authoritarian path.  Both, of course, wish to force the populace to do different things.


Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2016, 09:48:57 AM »
Uh, I was just describing decent people. I honestly didn't know "environmentally responsible, sane, hard-working, peaceful" people were some sort of outlier group.

But yes, for the record, I have no interest in living in some sort of wild west environment with a bunch of destructive, insane, lazy, violent people (see I flipped them all around) with no government control over said people.

The problem is, all people are sometimes destructive, lazy, insane (as in not making a logical choice), and not peaceful.  The world isn't black and white.  If government uses force to make an individual live a specific tone of grey, there had better be a very good reason for doing so, not just because it happens to be your favorite color. 

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2016, 02:00:26 PM »
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it.

That's not true. At a minimum, libertarianism requires a robust court system that must be funded with taxes. Why? Because most disputes would be handled between individuals rather than the government acting on behalf of the people.

For example, in an extremely libertarian world, there would be no pollution regulations. However, one of the key aspects of libertarianism is that you are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others. So, there would be lawsuits galore about the affects of pollution and people/companies would be forced to pay.

You would also need an army, police, jails, etc. that would need to be funded by taxes. 

You wouldn't necessarily need the departments of: agriculture, education, commerce, energy, HHS, HUD, Interior, Labor, Transportation, Treasury, or Veterans affairs.

You would need the departments of Defense, Homeland Security and Justice. So, still a government and not anarchy.
What your describing can't be squared with libertarianism (small "L").  If taxation is theft, then it can have no exceptions.  What if I am a pacifist and refuse to pay taxes for courts or police, what will you do to me?  We all know the answer to that.  Your system is not libertarian, sorry.

What you're describing isn't libertarianism (small "L").  There are libertarians that believe that, but that's not the definition of libertarianism any more than the definition of "liberal" (which somehow is the word we use to describe "statist") is communist.  Being a statist doesn't mean that you have to be a communist.  Being a libertarian doesn't mean you have to be an anarchist. 

BDWW

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2016, 04:29:11 PM »
I was thinking about the theory of libertarianism, not the political party that calls itself Libertarian.  The logical conclusion is that libertarianism must lead to anarchism, I see no way around it.

That's not true. At a minimum, libertarianism requires a robust court system that must be funded with taxes. Why? Because most disputes would be handled between individuals rather than the government acting on behalf of the people.

For example, in an extremely libertarian world, there would be no pollution regulations. However, one of the key aspects of libertarianism is that you are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't harm others. So, there would be lawsuits galore about the affects of pollution and people/companies would be forced to pay.

You would also need an army, police, jails, etc. that would need to be funded by taxes. 

You wouldn't necessarily need the departments of: agriculture, education, commerce, energy, HHS, HUD, Interior, Labor, Transportation, Treasury, or Veterans affairs.

You would need the departments of Defense, Homeland Security and Justice. So, still a government and not anarchy.
What your describing can't be squared with libertarianism (small "L").  If taxation is theft, then it can have no exceptions.  What if I am a pacifist and refuse to pay taxes for courts or police, what will you do to me?  We all know the answer to that.  Your system is not libertarian, sorry.

What you're describing isn't libertarianism (small "L").  There are libertarians that believe that, but that's not the definition of libertarianism any more than the definition of "liberal" (which somehow is the word we use to describe "statist") is communist.  Being a statist doesn't mean that you have to be a communist.  Being a libertarian doesn't mean you have to be an anarchist.

jim555 seems to be the only one espousing such a dogmatic view of libertarianism, and then somehow ascribing it to adherents. It appears to be some sort of "No true scotsmen" argument.

Kris

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #97 on: September 07, 2016, 12:44:12 PM »
^^^ Regarding which libertarianism is the "true" version, and the presence of absence of dogmatism:

I read Ayn Rand when I was about 19, and thought it was genius. Until someone older and wiser than I was at the time helped me walk through her trains of thought to their logical conclusions, and I realized that most of what she said was, at bottom absurd and/or sort of horrible.

And even today, when I hear or read people describing their particular versions of their libertarian beliefs, if they talk long enough and in detail enough, eventually I come to the conclusion that most of what they say is, at bottom absurd and/or sort of horrible.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

BDWW

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #98 on: September 07, 2016, 03:38:17 PM »
^^^ Regarding which libertarianism is the "true" version, and the presence of absence of dogmatism:

I read Ayn Rand when I was about 19, and thought it was genius. Until someone older and wiser than I was at the time helped me walk through her trains of thought to their logical conclusions, and I realized that most of what she said was, at bottom absurd and/or sort of horrible.

And even today, when I hear or read people describing their particular versions of their libertarian beliefs, if they talk long enough and in detail enough, eventually I come to the conclusion that most of what they say is, at bottom absurd and/or sort of horrible.

When I hear or read people describing their particular versions of their Democratic/Republican beliefs, if they talk long enough and in detail enough, eventually I come to the conclusion that most of what they say is, at bottom absurd and/or sort of horrible.


yuka

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2016, 03:51:03 PM »
So, I will almost certainly vote for Gary Johnson in November. My fiancee says she likes him except for his foreign policy. That would be fine with me, except she doesn't seem to care about any important foreign policy; all she brings up is ISIS. From my perspective, that doesn't even break the top 5 issues in foreign policy, depending on how you count them.

Anyway, I guess I'm wondering how people here feel about the weak-wristed stance we seem to be putting out to the world. Some examples of this, and my foreign policy concerns:
  • China's ignoring the UN ruling on island building, and our lack of response.
  • Our non-response to Iran's swarming of our patrol boats and destroyers, most recently 7 around a patrol boat, with one going DIW directly in front of our vessel ,requiring a maneuver
  • Our non-response Russia flying low over a navy ship, and now today, intercepting one of our planes at a range of 10 FEET.
  • Our non-response to Chinese and Russian state-sponsored CNE/CNA (and possible EW?) against the US.
  • North Korea's increasingly aggressive stance.

Granted, I'd rather we kept to ourselves more. However, we seem to be putting ourselves out there while simultaneously reinforcing to everyone that we're not to be taken seriously, which is the worst possible course. Put another way, we're speaking loudly but carrying a small stick.

Or am I missing the forest for the trees? Are these small snubs meaningless in some larger context that has escaped me?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 04:01:15 PM by yuka »