Author Topic: Who else here is a libertarian?  (Read 28984 times)

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #250 on: October 20, 2016, 05:23:06 PM »
People aren't products, by definition. Period. End of story. Trying to pretend libertarians support slavery is slanderous and offensive, so cut it the fuck out!

+1

This thread has been derailed long enough by a semantics argument over the definition of a free market. There is literally no one here who supports slavery. Let's stop beating a dead (straw) horse. There are more interesting discussions to be had.

Okay, so that example derailed it, but the point of there is no free markets, just choosing which restrictions we want, remains.


No... Pretty much every post in this thread is a derail.  I haven't counted, but I bet it's 10-1.  This was a "who else here is a libertarian" thread.  It's pretty much become the "you guys are stupid".  "No we are not, you are" thread. 

This is why we can't have nice things.

Naturally a thread about a thing involves discussing the thing itself.

Do you literally want a roll call?  Like, the question is "who is an X" and the ONLY replies allowed is the word "me" with no qualifications, discussions, etc?  Anyone who posts anything other than the word "me" has their post edited down to trim it to that, or deleted, if it's not equivalent to that?

So it's just a roll call of "Who is an X?"  "Me." "Me."  "Me."

What would be the point of that thread?  To gather a list of people to spam?

You're right that 90% of the posts go beyond that, to real discussion, because that's what a discussion entails.

I consider myself a libertarian, but I still like to discuss the concepts around it.  I'd love it if we could reach a consensus that we each want the market less constrained, and talk about, among fellow libertarians, which constraints we do want, or don't want, and why.  We're not at that initial consensus yet, obviously, needed to kick off that discussion.

But I don't agree with your idea of "this is why we can't have nice things" because we're discussing libertarianism, the topic of the thread, rather than just saying "me".
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Northwestie

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #251 on: October 20, 2016, 05:30:23 PM »
But I don't agree with your idea of "this is why we can't have nice things" because we're discussing libertarianism, the topic of the thread, rather than just saying "me".

..............and it is the interwebs after all.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #252 on: October 20, 2016, 06:39:38 PM »
So agreed: no one here, including libertarians, wants a truly free market. That is, one with total deregulation.

I like your idea ARS, so to kick things off here is my general view of what constitutes a good, well-regulated, free(ish) market:

1) Adam Smith's invisible hand concept will meet the vast majority of market needs and create an incredible amount of cohesion and efficiency in the economy.

But, the free market will create the following problems which must be regulated by a government.

2) Protect individual rights of freedom, property ownership, etc.

3) Protect against Tragedy of Commons issues such as environmental destruction

4) Protect public interests relating to consumer safety - i.e. food safety, vehicle inspections

5) Protect against monopolies/collusion for efficient markets in which collusion or monopolies creates price gouging (e.g. oil production)

6) Promote monopolies in highly inefficient markets in which monopolies encourage fairer pricing (e.g. utilities)

7) Promote innovation and technological development in areas where there is no current economic benefit and therefore no private research and development

I think the U.S. government has engaged in some meddling activities outside this basic scope and I would like to see it reined in.
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Telecaster

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #253 on: October 20, 2016, 06:53:27 PM »
That's quite a good list Rufus.T.Firefly!   I could co-sign that.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #254 on: October 20, 2016, 07:52:54 PM »
Great post Rufus!  Thanks for contributing!  :)
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #255 on: October 21, 2016, 08:23:41 AM »
People aren't products, by definition. Period. End of story. Trying to pretend libertarians support slavery is slanderous and offensive, so cut it the fuck out!

+1

This thread has been derailed long enough by a semantics argument over the definition of a free market. There is literally no one here who supports slavery. Let's stop beating a dead (straw) horse. There are more interesting discussions to be had.

Okay, so that example derailed it, but the point of there is no free markets, just choosing which restrictions we want, remains.


No... Pretty much every post in this thread is a derail.  I haven't counted, but I bet it's 10-1.  This was a "who else here is a libertarian" thread.  It's pretty much become the "you guys are stupid".  "No we are not, you are" thread. 

This is why we can't have nice things.

Naturally a thread about a thing involves discussing the thing itself.

Do you literally want a roll call?  Like, the question is "who is an X" and the ONLY replies allowed is the word "me" with no qualifications, discussions, etc?  Anyone who posts anything other than the word "me" has their post edited down to trim it to that, or deleted, if it's not equivalent to that?

So it's just a roll call of "Who is an X?"  "Me." "Me."  "Me."

What would be the point of that thread?  To gather a list of people to spam?

You're right that 90% of the posts go beyond that, to real discussion, because that's what a discussion entails.

I consider myself a libertarian, but I still like to discuss the concepts around it.  I'd love it if we could reach a consensus that we each want the market less constrained, and talk about, among fellow libertarians, which constraints we do want, or don't want, and why.  We're not at that initial consensus yet, obviously, needed to kick off that discussion.

But I don't agree with your idea of "this is why we can't have nice things" because we're discussing libertarianism, the topic of the thread, rather than just saying "me".

Not exactly what I meant.  I guess I had my tongue implanted too far in my cheek.

I like threads that promote positivism and inclusion. 

Libertarians discussing libertarianism:  that qualifies.  Long ridiculous pedantic posts about why libertarianism is stupid... doesn't.

For a moment, read back over this thread and make substitutions.  Change it from "who else here is a libertarian" to "who else here is a Christian?"  Now: Do you think it is meaningful or appropriate for an atheist (like myself) to pop in on the first page and hijack the entire thread with the logical problems with the Bible, the moral issues I have with the concept of god or how the Bible promotes slavery? 

To me, that is possibly worthy of a thread.*  But it is a troll in context.  The point would have been to find like minded people and discuss a topic.

--
*I say possibly.  But for me, it isn't.  Arguing with strangers over things that are likely core values does little to convince anyone of anything.  It usually just promotes divisiveness.  It radiates more heat than light.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #256 on: October 21, 2016, 10:20:53 AM »
For a moment, read back over this thread and make substitutions.  Change it from "who else here is a libertarian" to "who else here is a Christian?"  Now: Do you think it is meaningful or appropriate for an atheist (like myself) to pop in on the first page and hijack the entire thread with the logical problems with the Bible, the moral issues I have with the concept of god or how the Bible promotes slavery? 

This is probably a bad example.  Based on the outcomes of most other threads that mention Christianity, there are many MMM forum members who would think it is appropriate to hijack and castigate.

robartsd

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #257 on: October 21, 2016, 10:29:44 AM »
I agree that government should be organized for many of the things Rufus.T.Firefly indicates.

Certainly their should be criminal laws for purpose #2. From a libertarian perspective, this is the primary function of government.

I'd like to see purpose #3 enforced primarily through taxation - let the free market optimize away the Tragedy of the Commons.

#4 could mostly be accomplished without government (3rd party organizations setting/verifying standards). Government would of course be involved in cases where parties make false claims. Government could also require certain product categories that fail to meet certain standards carry an explicit consumer warning without banning the products.

I don't see a good way to reconcile anti-trust laws (#5 and #6) with libertarian philosophy but I do agree that they can be valuable. I'd prefer a society where non-profit cooperatives meet the need for infrastructure intensive utilities rather than government regulation of for-profit companies. Do roads and fire-fighting services fit in with utilities, or are those additional categories for government to handle?

I'm not sure that I agree that government involvement in #7 is needed. I'd rather see such research funded by private donation rather than tax collection.


Rufus.T.Firefly made no mention of public education and welfare assistance, but I think many people believe that these should also be provided by government. I'd like to think that these could be funded by private donation as I suggest research should, but I also recognize that failure here is a more critical problem than failing to fund research.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #258 on: October 21, 2016, 11:54:13 AM »
Regarding #7, public education and welfare assistance...  Some libertarians may argue the reason gov't is (currently) needed to fund these things is due to the short sightedness of citizens and corporate leadership.  The same may be said for infrastructure spending (ie utilities).  We reward companies, people and CEO's for making the quick buck, without regard to 5, 10 or 100 years from now.  Is this human nature and a failing of free market? or is this sociological and malleable? 

I would argue excess regulation has created the environment in which megacorps are given an extremely large competitive advantage (they are the only ones with the capital to meet regulatory requirements) and this exacerbates the problem.  Individuals, smaller, local, or regional companies tend to have more foresight and vested interest in the long term success of local education, infrastructure and even potentially pure research for the benefit of local society. They also tend to be leaner and more efficient.  Perhaps we are seeing a problem of scale as well?

In any event, the main reason libertarianism seems to have a problem gaining traction is the subscriber's (us) are not willing enough to comprise on the fundamental principles. IOW, we are all or nothing.  This doesn't have to be the case, as Rufus T. Firefly has so thoughtfully pointed out. Any switch to more free market ideals SHOULD be slow and methodical with each potential change analyzed with the greater good in mind.  Focus on one change each election cycle, if there are positive results move on to the next.  Marijuana legalization is no longer an "extremist" view... so whats next? :)

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #259 on: October 26, 2016, 02:04:26 PM »

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #260 on: October 26, 2016, 03:12:01 PM »
Sounds like Bill Weld is urging people to vote for Hillary?

https://www.johnsonweld.com/statement_by_gov_bill_weld_regarding_the_final_weeks_election

I found that nicely written.

The way I read it was "Vote for us if you will.  Vote for anyone but Trump otherwise or we'll all be sorry."  ... or something like that.  Not Hillary per se, but "Please: anyone but him."
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #261 on: November 02, 2016, 07:22:57 PM »

beel

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #262 on: November 03, 2016, 12:39:15 PM »
I consider myself Libertarian.  Just answering the OP's question.

Kris

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #263 on: November 03, 2016, 01:15:07 PM »
I just read this article on Gary Johnson in the Atlantic. Pretty good.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/no-not-gary-johnson/502718/?utm_source=atlfb
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #264 on: November 03, 2016, 06:12:37 PM »
I just read this article on Gary Johnson in the Atlantic. Pretty good.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/no-not-gary-johnson/502718/?utm_source=atlfb

The second half was really good, and a strong argument against him.

I wish they didn't blow out a lot of credibility with that first part, which was just FUD.

I generally like the Atlantic, but the initial attacks on him as a person, rather than on his policy (as it became later) were stupid.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #265 on: November 03, 2016, 10:01:38 PM »
I just saw Governor Weld speak at a small rally tonight in my city. It was great to meet and listen to someone who actually cares about the Constitution.
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Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #266 on: November 06, 2016, 08:41:20 PM »
I just checked a book out of the library called "Dark Money" that is apparently an "expose'" on the Koch brothers and all the "right extremist" funding they do.  I'm guessing from the title and jacket blurb that it's not going to be very complimentary.  ;-)

Excellent! I look forward to a review from a fellow Gen X rebel & individualist!
So I've read the book, and of course it's pretty biased from a liberal perspective.  (The author, Jane Mayer, is a liberal journalist who was apparently targeted by the Kochs for a smear campaign after writing an article about them that was less than flattering.)  My takeaway from it is this: it's hard to argue her point that the billions of dollars that Koch and other billionaires are pouring into politics is not a corrupting influence.  Of course it is.  All money corrupts, and absolute money corrupts absolutely.  That is equally true whether the corrupting influences come from the right or the left.  Since she's a lefty, she focuses on the right wingers, and she does a good job of showing the trail of mayhem caused by their money. 

But I would take her argument one step further: it is also hard to argue the point that many of these people are the same exact players, since big government and big business have a significant revolving door between them.  So she's right: if you don't trust big government, why would you trust big business?  But also the reverse: if you don't trust big business, why would you trust big government?  Neither one is interested in maximizing the personal liberty of individual citizens.

As I alluded to before, I am definitely coming around to the viewpoint that in order to maximize personal liberty, it is also necessary to maximize economic liberty.  In other words, to divorce work from earning a living, such as by having a basic minimum income for all.  People who need to work are at the mercy of powerful interests from both the left and the right (bosses, unions, etc) who seek to control them.  And unless you have the ability to leave your job, at any time, for any reason, i.e., to vote with your feet, can you truly be free?  I am excited about achieving FI not because I care about the money itself per se, but because I care about being able to have that freedom to not be dependent upon a job or an employer.  Having "FU money" and therefore being able to resist my most recent boss's attempt to bully me into staying at a job I wanted to quit was a real eye-opener for me.  In an ideal world, everyone should have that ability and that power.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #267 on: November 06, 2016, 10:04:00 PM »
I like your conclusions, LT.  Very insightful.
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Classical_Liberal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #268 on: November 07, 2016, 01:12:45 PM »
I just checked a book out of the library called "Dark Money" that is apparently an "expose'" on the Koch brothers and all the "right extremist" funding they do.  I'm guessing from the title and jacket blurb that it's not going to be very complimentary.  ;-)

Excellent! I look forward to a review from a fellow Gen X rebel & individualist!
So I've read the book, and of course it's pretty biased from a liberal perspective.  (The author, Jane Mayer, is a liberal journalist who was apparently targeted by the Kochs for a smear campaign after writing an article about them that was less than flattering.)  My takeaway from it is this: it's hard to argue her point that the billions of dollars that Koch and other billionaires are pouring into politics is not a corrupting influence.  Of course it is.  All money corrupts, and absolute money corrupts absolutely.  That is equally true whether the corrupting influences come from the right or the left.  Since she's a lefty, she focuses on the right wingers, and she does a good job of showing the trail of mayhem caused by their money. 

But I would take her argument one step further: it is also hard to argue the point that many of these people are the same exact players, since big government and big business have a significant revolving door between them.  So she's right: if you don't trust big government, why would you trust big business?  But also the reverse: if you don't trust big business, why would you trust big government?  Neither one is interested in maximizing the personal liberty of individual citizens.

As I alluded to before, I am definitely coming around to the viewpoint that in order to maximize personal liberty, it is also necessary to maximize economic liberty.  In other words, to divorce work from earning a living, such as by having a basic minimum income for all.  People who need to work are at the mercy of powerful interests from both the left and the right (bosses, unions, etc) who seek to control them.  And unless you have the ability to leave your job, at any time, for any reason, i.e., to vote with your feet, can you truly be free?  I am excited about achieving FI not because I care about the money itself per se, but because I care about being able to have that freedom to not be dependent upon a job or an employer.  Having "FU money" and therefore being able to resist my most recent boss's attempt to bully me into staying at a job I wanted to quit was a real eye-opener for me.  In an ideal world, everyone should have that ability and that power.

Thanks  for the review Libertea! 

Regarding your conclusions.  On a personal level, the single largest reason for achieving FI is freedom from dependency.  This naturally allows one to execute actions that are truly in line with personal ideals/morals. Still, even being FI, I will not be completely free as I'll be dependent on a stable system.  Although the degree may be different, I will still have to weigh choices that could potentially harm my personal wealth/income generating abilities, yet be positive step forwards for our culture.  Such delimias are likely a permanent part of the human condition.

Edit: I got interrupted

From a systemic standpoint, my greatest fear with UBI is that it will result in the exact opposite effect you predict.  Those who receive it now being dependent on one large Gov't vs many smaller organizations (employers) for basic needs.  If managed improperly, suddenly those receiving UBI could be at the whim of the majority political, social and moral winds.  At least with the current system we always have a choice to change employers (sometimes at a sacrifice). 

Sorry to hear about your boss!  I cant wait to hear the juicy details of your rebellion!!   2016 is almost gone, how much longer till your freedom?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 01:18:50 PM by Classical_Liberal »

Libertea

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #269 on: November 08, 2016, 07:16:59 AM »
There is always a risk of abuse of power regardless of who holds it.  This is the problem with allowing too much power to be concentrated anywhere, whether public (government) or private (large corporations).  Not to mention (again) that many of the fat cats involved are the same people in both contexts.  While I agree in principle that it makes sense to have multiple potential sources of income rather than just one centralized one, in practice it may not be practical.  In the not too distant future, the uber drivers and cashiers of the world are going to lose their jobs, because the cars will drive themselves and we will self-check our groceries.  It's already happening.  So it's when, not if.  Even professionals like lawyers and doctors will get replaced eventually.  We already have computers that can beat chess grandmasters.  Again, it's when, not if.

So the question is, when we reach the point where most of us aren't needed to labor to run the economy, then what?  I would hope that this would allow us to have an economy where people could all afford to follow their passions and do whatever "work" (whether paid or unpaid) they find meaningful.  The MBI would allow them to live, and it has to be administered by someone in a uniform way.  This could not likely be done by a hodgepodge of private companies even if we desired that, since they would need some mechanism for collecting the funds.  Government does have a power to levy taxes on the entire population, and this therefore seems to be a reasonable task to ask of government.  I don't think you or anyone else here is looking to argue that there should be no government at all, merely that that government should be smaller, and it should perform limited, carefully delineated functions.  Ensuring that everyone has a minimum income is one possible example.  Those who want to do whatever paid work of the future is needed and available are of course welcome to do that to earn extra income.

I have 7.5 weeks left to go.  Not that I'm counting. ;-)

libertarian4321

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #270 on: November 08, 2016, 01:37:59 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

It felt GREAT to vote for a decent human being, rather than the vile offerings presented by the major parties.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #271 on: November 08, 2016, 01:44:49 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

No kidding? You were really waffling over the past few months- I'm surprised to hear that you weren't swayed by the major-party candidates.
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #272 on: November 08, 2016, 01:52:47 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

No kidding? You were really waffling over the past few months- I'm surprised to hear that you weren't swayed by the major-party candidates.

Har de har har.


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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #273 on: November 08, 2016, 03:59:34 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

It felt GREAT to vote for a decent human being, rather than the vile offerings presented by the major parties.

I also voted for Gary Johnson. He is by far the candidate who would run the country in a way that makes me most comfortable. I may not agree with all the things in the Libertarian party...completely privatized education? That's a bad idea and would never happen anyway.

But the fact of the matter is that we have an incredibly flawed two-party system in this country and voting for Trump or Clinton doesn't help. Gary Johnson definitely won't get elected but at least my vote is going towards the cause of moving away from this horrible system.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #274 on: November 08, 2016, 06:27:40 PM »
I was looking at precint level voting last two years ago (governor race) and noticed a band of higher than usual 3rd party voting stretching from where I live and east for about 80-100 miles. Excited about looking again this time. If it is anything interesting Ill post.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #275 on: November 08, 2016, 10:46:02 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

It felt GREAT to vote for a decent human being, rather than the vile offerings presented by the major parties.

I also voted for Gary Johnson. He is by far the candidate who would run the country in a way that makes me most comfortable. I may not agree with all the things in the Libertarian party...completely privatized education? That's a bad idea and would never happen anyway.

But the fact of the matter is that we have an incredibly flawed two-party system in this country and voting for Trump or Clinton doesn't help. Gary Johnson definitely won't get elected but at least my vote is going towards the cause of moving away from this horrible system.

America will no doubt appreciate your vote.
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Cwadda

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #276 on: November 09, 2016, 11:19:00 AM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

It felt GREAT to vote for a decent human being, rather than the vile offerings presented by the major parties.

I also voted for Gary Johnson. He is by far the candidate who would run the country in a way that makes me most comfortable. I may not agree with all the things in the Libertarian party...completely privatized education? That's a bad idea and would never happen anyway.

But the fact of the matter is that we have an incredibly flawed two-party system in this country and voting for Trump or Clinton doesn't help. Gary Johnson definitely won't get elected but at least my vote is going towards the cause of moving away from this horrible system.

America will no doubt appreciate your vote.

My vote doesn't matter in Connecticut. It always goes democrat. I don't know how I would have voted if I lived in FL or PA. I'd be much more conflicted.

Not sure why I keep feeling the need to justify my voting with random strangers over the internet, but there you go.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #277 on: November 09, 2016, 12:02:46 PM »
looked at some precinct level data. a little disappointed with my libertarian brothers and sisters, not like trump wasn't going to win the state. Anywho,

http://www.gcgis.org/apps/greenvillejs/
(upper left)Maps->Layers->Map layers->(last) Political->Precinct(click)
 -Greenville 21(it is in the middle of the county (near the big one in the middle above I-85

Best precinct around, 8.2% Johnson, a few other precincts in greenville and neighboring counties got 5%+ but that is it. I thought there would be a string of 10%+ like there almost was in the governor race 2 years ago.

for those curious, I factored in stein too, Northwood, Devenger, and Greenville 10 were low 8%. 21 was 11%.

:(

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #278 on: November 11, 2016, 10:03:28 AM »
I prefer to think of myself as a Constitutional Anarchist. Because so many people are idiots who refuse to govern themselves, and because there really are things that work best when we cooperate, I've accepted that some government is a necessary evil, but not a source of leadership. It has to be kept in line by the people who pretend to be governed.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #279 on: November 13, 2016, 07:45:51 PM »
I voted for Libertarian Gary Johnson.

It felt GREAT to vote for a decent human being, rather than the vile offerings presented by the major parties.

I also voted for Gary Johnson. He is by far the candidate who would run the country in a way that makes me most comfortable. I may not agree with all the things in the Libertarian party...completely privatized education? That's a bad idea and would never happen anyway.

But the fact of the matter is that we have an incredibly flawed two-party system in this country and voting for Trump or Clinton doesn't help. Gary Johnson definitely won't get elected but at least my vote is going towards the cause of moving away from this horrible system.

America will no doubt appreciate your vote.

My vote doesn't matter in Connecticut. It always goes democrat. I don't know how I would have voted if I lived in FL or PA. I'd be much more conflicted.

Not sure why I keep feeling the need to justify my voting with random strangers over the internet, but there you go.

I would suggest that everyone vote for the candidate they support the most.  I would be unable to sleep at night if I did anything  else.
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beel

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #280 on: December 31, 2016, 12:14:23 PM »
I prefer to think of myself as a Constitutional Anarchist. Because so many people are idiots who refuse to govern themselves, and because there really are things that work best when we cooperate, I've accepted that some government is a necessary evil, but not a source of leadership. It has to be kept in line by the people who pretend to be governed.

Took the words right out of my mouth.  Sadly when ever I expressed this viewpoint I am called an asshole.... 

MVal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #281 on: January 23, 2017, 09:11:09 PM »
Any libertarians care to chime in on the devaluation of our currency? I sometimes wonder if all this saving for retirement will bite me in the butt because the currency could crash. Are any of you investing in precious metals at all as a hedge?
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katsiki

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #282 on: January 23, 2017, 09:14:25 PM »
Any libertarians care to chime in on the devaluation of our currency? I sometimes wonder if all this saving for retirement will bite me in the butt because the currency could crash. Are any of you investing in precious metals at all as a hedge?

I don't worry about it.  If that is a concern, I think we'll have bigger problems.
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Kris

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #283 on: January 23, 2017, 09:38:07 PM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

MVal

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #284 on: January 23, 2017, 09:44:54 PM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

Are Mustachians any different, by and large? We aren't seeking to have all our money distributed among the poor through taxation, we're here in this group because we want to secure our personal futures through wealth.
Proverbs 13:4
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Proverbs 13:11
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Kris

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #285 on: January 23, 2017, 09:56:10 PM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

Are Mustachians any different, by and large? We aren't seeking to have all our money distributed among the poor through taxation, we're here in this group because we want to secure our personal futures through wealth.

Yes, I think so. Part of the reason Pete wants to live frugally is to not destroy the planet. Because other people live here. I am completely fine with paying my taxes. I just choose to buy fewer things, which means I will be able to retire earlier. It also means I'm consuming fewer earth-wrecking products. I don't see that as not caring about others. On the contrary, I am limiting what I consume because I want others to not suffer.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #286 on: January 23, 2017, 10:01:41 PM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

Are Mustachians any different, by and large? We aren't seeking to have all our money distributed among the poor through taxation, we're here in this group because we want to secure our personal futures through wealth.

And to consume consciously, so that we get the most joy out of our lives. It's entirely selfish, though it sometimes has the benefit of not hurting others in the process. But we still consume, still buy brand new cars that destroy the planet, still fly around the world spewing burned jet fuel into the atmosphere to take selfies by famous landmarks and blog about where we've been and where we are going. Very selfish, overall. And often we are smug about it too, which is annoying, though not directly detrimental to others.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #287 on: January 24, 2017, 12:38:02 AM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

I guess I'm not a pure libertarian, but I would disagree with this.  By preserving individual liberties, each person is free to voluntarily help whomever they want to help.  I'm a big believer in donating to charitable causes and being generous with other people when I can.  The point is that each person is not forced to give to others but can choose independently.  At least, that's how I see it.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #288 on: January 24, 2017, 12:47:33 AM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

I guess I'm not a pure libertarian, but I would disagree with this.  By preserving individual liberties, each person is free to voluntarily help whomever they want to help.  I'm a big believer in donating to charitable causes and being generous with other people when I can.  The point is that each person is not forced to give to others but can choose independently.  At least, that's how I see it.

(Emphasis added.)

Sure, your statement is true in a vacuum.  That doesn't make her statement false.

Each person is free to help others.  Yet she still has seen no evidence that libertarians care about anything but their own self-interest.

It's a broad generalization, so there are very likely some anecdotes that disprove it, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the overlap of the Venn diagram between "care only about their self-interest" and "libertarian" as quite large.

So pedantically, Kris is wrong.  In practice, I'd say there's more truth than most libertarians would want to admit.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #289 on: January 24, 2017, 01:31:07 AM »
In practice, I'd say there's more truth than most libertarians would want to admit.

Maybe you're right, though that's not my personal experience.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #290 on: January 24, 2017, 02:20:15 AM »
In practice, I'd say there's more truth than most libertarians would want to admit.

Maybe you're right, though that's not my personal experience.

I'm really glad to hear that, it gives me hope.  :)
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #291 on: January 24, 2017, 07:08:27 AM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

Are Mustachians any different, by and large? We aren't seeking to have all our money distributed among the poor through taxation, we're here in this group because we want to secure our personal futures through wealth.

Yes, I think so. Part of the reason Pete wants to live frugally is to not destroy the planet. Because other people live here. I am completely fine with paying my taxes. I just choose to buy fewer things, which means I will be able to retire earlier. It also means I'm consuming fewer earth-wrecking products. I don't see that as not caring about others. On the contrary, I am limiting what I consume because I want others to not suffer.

For some of us: less pollution and more green nature is a selfish desire.  Not for other people.  For ME.

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GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #292 on: January 24, 2017, 07:33:38 AM »
FWIW, I think that it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do anything that's not selfish in nature.

I support policies that aim to reduce poverty and end hunger because I feel that doing this will make the world nicer for me to live in.  I give to charity because it makes me feel good about myself.  I attempt to minimize waste and pollution that I generate in my life because leaving a greener planet for my son is something that will make me happy.

You can be completely selfish and still help the community around you.  The problem that I see with the Libertarian views of some is that they often skew towards selfish and detrimental to the greater community.  (I suspect that this comes from a rejection or misunderstanding of the tremendous interconnectedness that people living together as a society have with one another.)  My hope is that those who follow this path will eventually be able to find enjoyment in doing things that help others, and thus realign their selfishness to be of more benefit to society.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #293 on: January 24, 2017, 07:35:51 AM »


FWIW, I think that it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do anything that's not selfish in nature.

I support policies that aim to reduce poverty and end hunger because I feel that doing this will make the world nicer for me to live in.  I give to charity because it makes me feel good about myself.  I attempt to minimize waste and pollution that I generate in my life because leaving a greener planet for my son is something that will make me happy.

You can be completely selfish and still help the community around you.  The problem that I see with the Libertarian views of some is that they often skew towards selfish and detrimental to the greater community.  (I suspect that this comes from a rejection or misunderstanding of the tremendous interconnectedness that people living together as a society have with one another.)  My hope is that those who follow this path will eventually be able to find enjoyment in doing things that help others, and thus realign their selfishness to be of more benefit to society.

I don't think my giving will make the world better, except for those people directly affected.

I don't think it will make it better for me personally.

YMMV, apparently.

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shenlong55

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #294 on: January 24, 2017, 07:45:43 AM »
FWIW, I think that it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do anything that's not selfish in nature.

I support policies that aim to reduce poverty and end hunger because I feel that doing this will make the world nicer for me to live in.  I give to charity because it makes me feel good about myself.  I attempt to minimize waste and pollution that I generate in my life because leaving a greener planet for my son is something that will make me happy.

You can be completely selfish and still help the community around you.  The problem that I see with the Libertarian views of some is that they often skew towards selfish and detrimental to the greater community.  (I suspect that this comes from a rejection or misunderstanding of the tremendous interconnectedness that people living together as a society have with one another.)  My hope is that those who follow this path will eventually be able to find enjoyment in doing things that help others, and thus realign their selfishness to be of more benefit to society.

+1

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #295 on: January 24, 2017, 09:00:55 AM »
I can't see any evidence that libertarians people, by definition, care about anything but their own self-interests.

FTFY :)
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robartsd

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #296 on: January 24, 2017, 09:51:54 AM »
You can be completely selfish and still help the community around you.  The problem that I see with the Libertarian views of some is that they often skew towards selfish and detrimental to the greater community.  (I suspect that this comes from a rejection or misunderstanding of the tremendous interconnectedness that people living together as a society have with one another.)
Libertarian philosophy (sometimes not the same as libertarian politics) is a rejection that the tremendous interconnectedness should be controlled by legal force rather than based solely on mutual choice. I think most libertarians believe in voluntarily contributing to their communities directly or through private charities rather than through taxation and government bureaucracy.

jim555

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #297 on: January 24, 2017, 10:11:34 AM »
So GoFundMe is the primary way for healthcare?

Gal2016

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #298 on: January 24, 2017, 10:34:58 AM »
You can be completely selfish and still help the community around you.  The problem that I see with the Libertarian views of some is that they often skew towards selfish and detrimental to the greater community.  (I suspect that this comes from a rejection or misunderstanding of the tremendous interconnectedness that people living together as a society have with one another.)
Libertarian philosophy (sometimes not the same as libertarian politics) is a rejection that the tremendous interconnectedness should be controlled by legal force rather than based solely on mutual choice. I think most libertarians believe in voluntarily contributing to their communities directly or through private charities rather than through taxation and government bureaucracy.

I think that Libertarians may be kind of "pie in the sky" types of people, who are genuinely good people who take care of their own lives and honestly think everyone else should, too. I applaud that sentiment! Yes, please.

Libertarians that I know are hard working individuals who just want to be left in peace to raise their kids, take care of their families, and assist their communities how they see fit -- sometimes with money, sometimes with things, and sometimes with service -- and sometimes not at all.  I think that's great!

The major problem that I see with Libertarianism just like Socialism (and most "isms") is that not all people are as hard working and self-governing and even as generous as everyone else.  We will always have that segment of society who do grossly irresponsible things (not save money, reckless & unhealthy behaviors).  In fact, a lot of people in a lot of different ways meet that criteria.  So, we have laws that help to enforce responsibility and avoid costly recklessness. Helmet and seatbelt laws, for example. Legalizing recreational marijuana is probably not a great idea -- altered mental states aren't safe in a variety of scenarios and it's far more difficult to determine if someone is "under the influence" of marijuana at the time of a workplace accident versus testing the blood-alcohol level of someone who is suspected of being drunk (but that's another topic). Anyway. If we could somehow ensure that people weren't doing stupid things that cost others' time/money/health/lives -- that would be great and I'd be all about everyone doing what they want.  It just doesn't work out that way in real life.  I'm for minimal government, as appropriate.  And that's why I can't be Libertarian, and fall pretty squarely in the Republican camp.  I could never be Democrat with the ideal that everyone "deserves" a grand lifestyle without necessarily having to sacrifice anything because "someone else" will be taxed (or earn) it for them.

cheapass

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #299 on: January 24, 2017, 10:41:32 AM »
Legalizing recreational marijuana is probably not a great idea -- altered mental states aren't safe in a variety of scenarios and it's far more difficult to determine if someone is "under the influence" of marijuana at the time of a workplace accident versus testing the blood-alcohol level of someone who is suspected of being drunk (but that's another topic).

Do you support bans on alcohol, caffeine, and other recreational drugs that cause altered behavior?

The current prohibition on marijuana doesn't exactly seem to be working, and costs you and me a shitload of money when you factor in law enforcement resources, attorneys, judges, prisons, etc. Not to mention it's not really my job to tell people what they can and can't consume.
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