Author Topic: Who else here is a libertarian?  (Read 26698 times)

dividendman

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2016, 04:16:57 PM »
So, I will almost certainly vote for Gary Johnson in November. My fiancee says she likes him except for his foreign policy. That would be fine with me, except she doesn't seem to care about any important foreign policy; all she brings up is ISIS. From my perspective, that doesn't even break the top 5 issues in foreign policy, depending on how you count them.

Anyway, I guess I'm wondering how people here feel about the weak-wristed stance we seem to be putting out to the world. Some examples of this, and my foreign policy concerns:
  • China's ignoring the UN ruling on island building, and our lack of response.
  • Our non-response to Iran's swarming of our patrol boats and destroyers, most recently 7 around a patrol boat, with one going DIW directly in front of our vessel ,requiring a maneuver
  • Our non-response Russia flying low over a navy ship, and now today, intercepting one of our planes at a range of 10 FEET.
  • Our non-response to Chinese and Russian state-sponsored CNE/CNA (and possible EW?) against the US.
  • North Korea's increasingly aggressive stance.

Granted, I'd rather we kept to ourselves more. However, we seem to be putting ourselves out there while simultaneously reinforcing to everyone that we're not to be taken seriously, which is the worst possible course. Put another way, we're speaking loudly but carrying a small stick.

Or am I missing the forest for the trees? Are these small snubs meaningless in some larger context that has escaped me?

Do you suggest the US should start downing Russian planes in international airspace, sinking Iranian ships in international waters, bombing (or building) islands in the China seas?

You mention how the responses have been weak. What do you suggest as the responses? What does the US gain from responding in a more forceful manner?

North Korea has always been "aggressive". If the sinking of a South Korean submarine isn't going to get any response, why should some words/missile tests? Note that the US and South Korea remain at war with the DPRK. If the US is really at war, send in the troops and win, right?


BTDretire

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #101 on: September 10, 2016, 07:24:04 AM »
Not me, but I live 2 blocks from a library!

                :-)

iris lily

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #102 on: September 10, 2016, 08:25:54 AM »
In my mind there is a difference between the Libertarian political party and having libertarian leaning political ideals. Personally I lean more libertarian than either political party, but at the same time I realize that a pure Libertarian philosophy is not compatible with a functioning government.

The problem with the Libertarian philosophy is if you take it to the logical conclusion, there is no government. There is anarchy.

Plus it is really easy to be libertarian when you are rich, white and male which makes me wonder if the reason I am drawn to it is muddled by my privilege. Just writing this makes me think I need a therapist ;)

A year or two ago, I'd have said a definite yes.

But now, I'm less and less Libertarian as the years go on (mostly due to the hardcore nuts online who put forth too extreme of a view with no room for compromise), but I still identify as mostly libertarian and there's no other party I could identify with.

I'd guess I'll eventually identify as non-partisan, but we'll see.
Definitely agree with all of that!  :)

Recognizing my privilege has absolutely moved me away from Libertarianism in some aspects towards more social programs/safety nets rather than a "bootstrap yourself" philosophy.

I have always recognized my privilege, my parents made a big deal about it (stable family, middle class,educated.) In my lily white suburb in my lily white state, we were Democrats and we believed that Nanny G needed to hand out stuff for the poor and downtrodden.

Then I moved to the urban core, an area of urban  pioneering, where people put blood and sweat and their own money (banks wouldnt loan to them ) into saving fabulous old houses and building a community of tough urban DIYers. It is a daily issue to address the crime that comes with  living among the urban poor. We were two blocks away from public housing high rise towers (who remembers that social program gone wrong?)  I found just how f--cked up gubmnt  policy and practice was about housing and how money grubbing and entitled were the poor and down trodden. i was raised right, it just didnt "take" in the real world of contentious race and class politics.

We spent time,energy, and resources to battle HUD authorities for years in their stupid, even evil plans that pretty much worked to tear down the fabric of my community. The final straw in my conversion from caring liberal to --um, something else-- was when I attended yet anther bureaucratic meeting of HUD officials where they laid out their latest proposal for increased gubmnt housing in my area. There on their Power Point screen was a map of all vacant lots where gubmnt housng could go, including my iris and lily garden, my privately owned land. I felt a switch turn and I channelled some David Koresh as I envisioned my battle to the death with gooberment bureaucrats in taking my land, invading my block, to throw up their cheap ugly faux "Victorian" monstrosities and and populate them with people who do not share my values.

The feds may pry my garden out of my cold, dead hands, but not until I take some of them down with me.

This is no longer a threat,  but those fooking HUD asses kept us hopping for about a decade. They can go f,,k themselves.

And that is how I became a libertarian.




« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 09:08:23 AM by iris lily »

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #103 on: September 10, 2016, 08:45:55 AM »
I didn't realize I was a libertarian until someone asked me what I would do with Aleppo.

aspiringnomad

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #104 on: September 11, 2016, 12:16:13 AM »
The USA functioned for ~160 years without the social insecurity system.  I assure you, there were not "scores of elderly dying in the streets" prior to 1935 (the start of the social insecurity system).

Maybe not, but they were dying somewhere if they were lucky enough to reach old age. Life expectancy in the US didn't reach 60 until the 30's.

I didn't realize I was a libertarian until someone asked me what I would do with Aleppo.

What's that?


nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #105 on: September 11, 2016, 12:27:39 PM »
They would get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.  For me that would be a horrible thing.  They would have scores of elderly literally dying in the streets.  No thanks!
No you wouldn't.
The streets would be owned by corporations and you would pay to only use the streets you need, no more taxes going to wasteful highway pork projects. If the homeless want to live on the streets they will need an EZPass on their shopping carts.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #106 on: September 11, 2016, 12:29:26 PM »

I didn't realize I was a libertarian until someone asked me what I would do with Aleppo.

What's that?
It's the Marx brother that nobody talks about

LeRainDrop

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2016, 02:38:12 AM »
This article discusses the origin of the term "libertarian": "Where Does the Term 'Libertarian' Come From Anyway?"  In light of the comments early in this thread -- re, well I'm this libertarian but not that libertarian -- I thought this might be an interesting read for you all.

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2016, 03:31:24 AM »
Got one here! Funny enough i was going to ask this question when i clicked on this sub-forum :D

100% have been for for NAP for the last 6 years of my life.
Took me 24 too many long years to figure out forcing people to behave like you want, and taking money from others at gun point is just wrong.

Now that i am 30, i even see it more when it comes to how much i have been robbed through SS and general taxes.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 03:33:05 AM by MoonLiteNite »

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2016, 03:37:29 AM »
I'm libertarian.

The weird thing about libertarianism, and  I suspect third parties in general, is that somehow we have to 100% support the platform. In this thread there's people saying "I'd be libertarian but...."

Do any of those stipulations EVER get applied to the main parties? I doubt very many people actually adhere to such a stringent interpretation of either D or R parties.

I don't agree with the (L) party on everything, nor do I think we need to go all the way to some supposed libertarian ideal. But I do want/think we need libertarian influence on the current state of affairs. Slide the scale towards liberatarianism to counterbalance what I view as a very top heavy statist government at the moment.

I am republican... but i do not think the state should say what people put in their bodies.
I am democrat... but i do not think the state should say how i defend myself
I am libertarian... but muh roads!!!!!

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »
This article discusses the origin of the term "libertarian": "Where Does the Term 'Libertarian' Come From Anyway?"  In light of the comments early in this thread -- re, well I'm this libertarian but not that libertarian -- I thought this might be an interesting read for you all.

I always found it ironic that the very things liberals are pushing are extremely anti-freedom.
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
-Nelson Mandela

“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
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bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2016, 03:52:17 PM »
This article discusses the origin of the term "libertarian": "Where Does the Term 'Libertarian' Come From Anyway?"  In light of the comments early in this thread -- re, well I'm this libertarian but not that libertarian -- I thought this might be an interesting read for you all.

I always found it ironic that the very things liberals are pushing are extremely anti-freedom.

Totally. Where's my free market in children?*


*Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2016, 04:32:18 PM »

Totally. Where's my free market in children?*


*Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty

You think you should be free to dictate to others how to live their lives even to the point of enslavement? I think you should seek professional help.
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
-Nelson Mandela

“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2016, 04:55:06 PM »

Totally. Where's my free market in children?*


*Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty

You think you should be free to dictate to others how to live their lives even to the point of enslavement? I think you should seek professional help.

*woosh*

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2016, 05:19:20 PM »

Totally. Where's my free market in children?*


*Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty

You think you should be free to dictate to others how to live their lives even to the point of enslavement? I think you should seek professional help.

*woosh*

Are you the only one allowed to be sarcastic?
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
-Nelson Mandela

“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

bacchi

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2016, 05:36:50 PM »

Totally. Where's my free market in children?*


*Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty

You think you should be free to dictate to others how to live their lives even to the point of enslavement? I think you should seek professional help.

*woosh*

Are you the only one allowed to be sarcastic?

Ah, my apologies. Sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet.

sol

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2016, 05:43:21 PM »
Even if I believed in libertarian philosophy, I probably wouldn't publicly associate myself with a movement with such a long history of hatred and bigotry.

As a quick review for anyone born after 1970, the libertarianism movement was created by far-right republicans who thought Eisenhower and Nixon were too moderate, and then promptly adopted and promoted by scores of ugly racists like Murray Rothbard and H.L. Mencken and Lew Rockwell and David Duke (and eventually Ron Paul).

The libertarian argument for expanding personal freedoms is the exact same argument that said the US Civil War was fought because the South was trying to defend freedom.  Specifically, their freedom to own slaves (and they still don't see the irony there).  Libertarians don't really care about expanding personal freedoms, they care about removing the government's authority and ability to enforce freedom and equality for all US citizens. 

For example, libertarians don't think marijuana should be legal.  They think each city or state should be free to make their own laws about, up to and including immediate execution by firing squad for first time offenders.  Every time I hear a pot head say they want to vote libertarian because they think it will loosen drug laws, I remind them that federal drug sentencing guidelines, while far from perfect, do at least protect people in both directions.  Without them, things like Sharia Law are a real possibility. 

Yes, I just said that libertarians support Sharia Law.  Or at least the freedom for any state that wants it to have it.

Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2016, 05:48:24 PM »
Even if I believed in libertarian philosophy, I probably wouldn't publicly associate myself with a movement with such a long history of hatred and bigotry.

As a quick review for anyone born after 1970, the libertarianism movement was created by far-right republicans who thought Eisenhower and Nixon were too moderate, and then promptly adopted and promoted by scores of ugly racists like Murray Rothbard and H.L. Mencken and Lew Rockwell and David Duke (and eventually Ron Paul).

The libertarian argument for expanding personal freedoms is the exact same argument that said the US Civil War was fought because the South was trying to defend freedom.  Specifically, their freedom to own slaves (and they still don't see the irony there).  Libertarians don't really care about expanding personal freedoms, they care about removing the government's authority and ability to enforce freedom and equality for all US citizens. 

For example, libertarians don't think marijuana should be legal.  They think each city or state should be free to make their own laws about, up to and including immediate execution by firing squad for first time offenders.  Every time I hear a pot head say they want to vote libertarian because they think it will loosen drug laws, I remind them that federal drug sentencing guidelines, while far from perfect, do at least protect people in both directions.  Without them, things like Sharia Law are a real possibility. 

Yes, I just said that libertarians support Sharia Law.  Or at least the freedom for any state that wants it to have it.

A lot of presumptions, elitism and non-factual statements with a good dose of belittlement. Oh look, it's Sol. Color me surpised.

MOD NOTE: Please stop with the personal attacks.  Cheers!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 09:12:43 PM by arebelspy »
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
-Nelson Mandela

“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

sol

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2016, 05:52:08 PM »
A lot of presumptions, elitism and non-factual statements with a good dose of belittlement. Oh look, it's Sol. Color me surpised.

Rather than a personal attack, I was hoping you might offer specific rebuttals.  Can you clarify which sentence is nonfactual, for example?  I'm always open to learning something new. 

Everything I've ever learned about libertarianism has been sadly disappointing, which is why I was so surprised to see so many otherwise intelligent and respectable forum posters publicly declaring their adherence.

You, Cyaphas, are not included in that assessment.

MOD EDIT: Please stop with the personal attacks.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 09:13:17 PM by arebelspy »

Spork

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2016, 05:57:22 PM »
For example, libertarians don't think marijuana should be legal.  They think each city or state should be free to make their own laws about, up to and including immediate execution by firing squad for first time offenders.  Every time I hear a pot head say they want to vote libertarian because they think it will loosen drug laws, I remind them that federal drug sentencing guidelines, while far from perfect, do at least protect people in both directions.  Without them, things like Sharia Law are a real possibility. 

Yes, I just said that libertarians support Sharia Law.  Or at least the freedom for any state that wants it to have it.

Citation needed.  Lots of them needed.
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Cyaphas

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2016, 06:07:50 PM »
Even if I believed in libertarian philosophy, I probably wouldn't publicly associate myself with a movement with such a long history of hatred and bigotry.

I'm sure every other party has a squeaky clean record of upholding the constitution and not being for the most part corrupt?

As a quick review for anyone born after 1970, the libertarianism movement was created by far-right republicans who thought Eisenhower and Nixon were too moderate, and then promptly adopted and promoted by scores of ugly racists like Murray Rothbard and H.L. Mencken and Lew Rockwell and David Duke (and eventually Ron Paul).

Again, trying guilt by association. John Wayne Gacy was a democrat. Racism is bad. We know. I'm happy to announce racism has nothing to do with Libertarians. Full stop. 

The libertarian argument for expanding personal freedoms is the exact same argument that said the US Civil War was fought because the South was trying to defend freedom.  Specifically, their freedom to own slaves (and they still don't see the irony there).  Libertarians don't really care about expanding personal freedoms, they care about removing the government's authority and ability to enforce freedom and equality for all US citizens. 

I'm so glad you're here to tel us what we're trying to do and thinking. Thank god you're the expert on what goes on in our heads. Oh and... RACISM! Scarrry. Also, do some research on the Civil War. You write like you don't know what happened or you're trying to re-write history to your convenience.

For example, libertarians don't think marijuana should be legal.  They think each city or state should be free to make their own laws about, up to and including immediate execution by firing squad for first time offenders.  Every time I hear a pot head say they want to vote libertarian because they think it will loosen drug laws, I remind them that federal drug sentencing guidelines, while far from perfect, do at least protect people in both directions.  Without them, things like Sharia Law are a real possibility. 

Putting words in everyone's mouth... again. There's even a dose of 'public executions' in there for shock value. Even a sad attempt to associate Sharia law with Libertarianism. LOL!

Yes, I just said that libertarians support Sharia Law.  Or at least the freedom for any state that wants it to have it.

This gem says it all! Your attempted hit piece is nothing more than comedy. That you feel anyone would take you seriously after that statement proves just how much of a zealot, just how far out of touch, you are.



A lot of presumptions, elitism and non-factual statements with a good dose of belittlement. Oh look, it's Sol. Color me surpised.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 06:12:00 PM by Cyaphas »
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
-Nelson Mandela

“Gold is the money of kings, silver is the money of gentlemen, barter is the money of peasants – but debt is the money of slaves.”
-Norm Franz

FINate

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2016, 06:47:52 PM »
I've long considered myself libertarian (little L) because I tend to be socially liberal* and fiscally conservative** and therefore do not fit neatly into either of the main political parties. I suspect there are many divergent definitions for "libertarian" because it is primarily a catch-all for not quite Dem or Repub, so this can be a broad spectrum of ideals. I will not vote for Trump or Clinton, not sure if I will vote for Johnson - this may be the first presidential election where I don't vote for anyone.

* Although I'm very conservative in my personal life (protestant faith), I strongly believe government has no place in people's personal lives as long as no one is harming another, and government should not be legislating morality. So although I'm a "church goer", I'm strongly pro gay rights/gay marriage, support plural marriage (though I have no interest in it, just don't think it does any good to push it underground as long as it's between consenting adults), for legalization of pot (though not a user myself), and for legalization or at least decriminalization of other drugs. In short, when it comes to government I prioritize personal liberty above pretty much everything else.

** This does not mean I'm against government programs or taxes. There are certain functions that are best handled by a government, and taxes are absolutely necessary for society to function. My issue is the US Federal government is far too large and inefficient. I would much rather have programs and services provided at the state or, even better, the local level where there's more accountability to voters. At present responsibility is too diffuse, with too many layers of bureaucracy between what's happening on the ground and our elected representatives. Large centralized programs also create extremely high incentives for special interests to lobby in D.C. - I would rather make special interests lobby individually in each state. And while I'm not against taxes, I know every tax has a cost and distorts the market to some degree. My preference would be for the government to focus on how best to balance maximizing revenue while promoting economic growth, yet the Dems seem hell bent on making people "pay their fair share" whereas the Repubs are only focused on "starving the beast" :(
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 07:25:17 PM by FINate »

sol

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2016, 06:48:19 PM »
Citation needed.  Lots of them needed.

That's fair.  I'm making dinner and then have some chores to do, but I'll see if I can't get back to you later tonight.

I'm sure every other party has a squeaky clean record of upholding the constitution and not being for the most part corrupt?

Definitely not.  Democrats used to be the party of Jim Crow, after all.  But libertarians, more so than other the other parties, have a well documented history of voluminous writings by the movement's founders and original thinkers.  Just because it's so much more recent.  Some of those thinkers very strongly argued that the the U.S. government had no place invading a sovereign nation (the South) to infringe the freedoms of white southerners who only wanted to preserve their individual rights to infringe the freedoms of black southerners.

Quote

Again, trying guilt by association. John Wayne Gacy was a democrat. Racism is bad. We know. I'm happy to announce racism has nothing to do with Libertarians. Full stop. 


Nothing at all?  Really?  Have you read any of those issues of Reason from the 1970s and 80s, like the ones where they defended Apartheid in South Africa, or promoted Holocaust denialism and revisionist history?  You don't see any racism there?

And this isn't guilt by association because some bad people were libertarians.  This is guilt because the movement's founding fathers actively defended some bad people, like David Duke in 1992.

Quote

You write like you don't know what happened or you're trying to re-write history to your convenience.


Wow, I'm the one who is supposedly rewriting history?  Did you see that link above about Reason magazine promoting revisionist history regarding WWII and the holocaust?  That's some classic Donald Trump style ninjutsu right there, accusing me of the very thing you're most guilty of.

Quote

That you feel anyone would take you seriously after that statement proves just how much of a zealot, just how far out of touch, you are.


I don't feel like a zealot.  I feel like a centrist democrat who appreciates the progress we've made over the past 8 years, is still uncomfortable with how readily liberals have seemingly adopted 90s neocon foreign policy, and recognizes that truly free markets have always been disastrously inefficient. 

I like healthcare being available to more Americans.  I like women to have access to birth control through their employer insurance.  I recognize the success of the recent economic stimulus packages, and support the federal reserve's policies because they have been proven to work.  I support current (and even higher) corporate tax rates on huge megacorps.  I think the country is moving (slowly) in the right direction by liberalizing drug policy.  I support public schools, and I think the government has a vital role to play in curbing carbon emissions.  I support restricting gun ownership options for felons, criminals, and terrorists.  I like the social security program and I support paying for it with taxes.

Gary Johnson opposes everything in the preceding paragraph.  If you agree with me on any of those points, then you disagree with the Libertarian candidate.

To be fair, there are also some issues on which I agree with him.  Just not nearly as many as there are for more traditional candidates.

badbear

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2016, 07:46:45 PM »
Nothing at all?  Really?  Have you read any of those issues of Reason from the 1970s and 80s, like the ones where they defended Apartheid in South Africa, or promoted Holocaust denialism and revisionist history?  You don't see any racism there?
Reason did not defend Apartheid, it opposed it vehemently. I'll let them explain this hit piece.
http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/02/washington-post-contributor-falsely-accu
http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/06/washington-post-and-matthew-sheffield-di

Wow, I'm the one who is supposedly rewriting history?  Did you see that link above about Reason magazine promoting revisionist history regarding WWII and the holocaust?  That's some classic Donald Trump style ninjutsu right there, accusing me of the very thing you're most guilty of.
The above links also address this "revisionism", which was really just examining ways in which some people try to revise history, not supporting it.

I don't feel like a zealot.  I feel like a centrist democrat who appreciates the progress we've made over the past 8 years, is still uncomfortable with how readily liberals have seemingly adopted 90s neocon foreign policy, and recognizes that truly free markets have always been disastrously inefficient. 

I like healthcare being available to more Americans.  I like women to have access to birth control through their employer insurance.
Libertarians, including Gary Johnson, almost universally oppose interventionist neocon foreign policy. I think most libertarians would agree that birth control should be available over the counter. Can you cite any evidence for truly free markets being inefficient? You're fighting against some pretty well-established economics here.

I recognize the success of the recent economic stimulus packages, and support the federal reserve's policies because they have been proven to work.  I support current (and even higher) corporate tax rates on huge megacorps.
We already have the highest corporate tax rate in the world, it's just that there are so many loopholes written into the tax law that it gives unfair advantage to large corporations and screws over small ones. The big companies lobbied for this, but wouldn't we all be better off if the corporate tax rate were lower and the loopholes and special tax breaks were eliminated?

I think the country is moving (slowly) in the right direction by liberalizing drug policy.
Gary Johnson supports marijuana legalization and drug decriminalization.

I support public schools, and I think the government has a vital role to play in curbing carbon emissions.
Gary Johnson supports school choice, not necessarily the elimination of public schools. Education is largely decided on the state and local level already--let them decide how to educate their children.
Gary Johnson also has recently expressed being open to a carbon tax, which many libertarians have not be enthused about.

I support restricting gun ownership options for felons, criminals, and terrorists.
From the site you linked to below, Gary Johnson: "Keep guns away from mentally ill & potential terrorists. (Jun 2016)".

I like the social security program and I support paying for it with taxes.
Gary Johnson has not said he would eliminate social security, but has said we need to consider raising the full retirement age to keep the program solvent. He has also said we may want to transition to some sort of system using personal accounts, which I would support.

Gary Johnson opposes everything in the preceding paragraph.  If you agree with me on any of those points, then you disagree with the Libertarian candidate.
This simply isn't true, as I've pointed out above.

To be fair, there are also some issues on which I agree with him.  Just not nearly as many as there are for more traditional candidates.
That's fine, but please don't misrepresent what his positions are.

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2016, 09:17:39 PM »
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2016, 07:07:42 AM »
I don't feel like a zealot.  I feel like a centrist democrat who appreciates the progress we've made over the past 8 years, is still uncomfortable with how readily liberals have seemingly adopted 90s neocon foreign policy, and recognizes that truly free markets have always been disastrously inefficient. 

I like healthcare being available to more Americans.  I like women to have access to birth control through their employer insurance.
Libertarians, including Gary Johnson, almost universally oppose interventionist neocon foreign policy. I think most libertarians would agree that birth control should be available over the counter. Can you cite any evidence for truly free markets being inefficient? You're fighting against some pretty well-established economics here.

Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2016, 07:49:53 AM »
I don't feel like a zealot.  I feel like a centrist democrat who appreciates the progress we've made over the past 8 years, is still uncomfortable with how readily liberals have seemingly adopted 90s neocon foreign policy, and recognizes that truly free markets have always been disastrously inefficient. 

I like healthcare being available to more Americans.  I like women to have access to birth control through their employer insurance.
Libertarians, including Gary Johnson, almost universally oppose interventionist neocon foreign policy. I think most libertarians would agree that birth control should be available over the counter. Can you cite any evidence for truly free markets being inefficient? You're fighting against some pretty well-established economics here.

Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.

All true, but a little extreme in the example.  A free market will always trend to extremes.  Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism and free market ideas embraced regulation because he saw what relatively unrestrained free markets were capable of (East India company absues).

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #127 on: September 20, 2016, 08:03:30 AM »
Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.
Only if you are assuming that a "free market" is the underlying freedom that supersedes all others.  However, in the hierarchy of libertarian values, a free market is NOT the most essential value.  Rather, the right of each individual to their life and liberty (i.e., self-determination) is the axiomatic principle for libertarianism.  Anything else that interferes with that most basic, primary right must be banned (by the state, and by force, if necessary).  Thus, I cannot choose to own or sell a human slave (whether a child or an adult) under a libertarian regime, because by doing so, it would violate that person's right to their life and liberty.  I cannot choose to sell one of your organs without your permission for the same reason, as it would require me to first assault you.  You, on the other hand, COULD conceivably choose to sell your organs yourself (or via an "organ broker") in a certain libertarian scenario, which is a completely different question, since it gets into the debate of whether someone who chooses to sell an organ is truly doing so without external coercion.

Regarding sol's argument about a libertarian position on marijuana being legal, I disagree that most libertarians would find a local government oppressing its citizens' right to self-determination much more palatable than they find the federal government doing it.  Put simply, if you accept the idea that consenting adults should be able to do what they wish with their own bodies as the most primary of principles, then the logical conclusion is that the government should have no position at all regarding the sale or use of marijuana, except where its sale/use interferes with the rights of others to life and liberty.  So yes, using marijuana would be legal under any libertarian government.  HOWEVER, there is a caveat.  It is well-established, for example, that marijuana use slows reaction times and impairs judgment.  Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate for the government to ban driving under the influence, and to arrest/imprison those who violate the rights of others by getting behind the wheel while impaired.  Your right to toke up stops at the point where it becomes a threat to the life and liberty of others.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #128 on: September 20, 2016, 08:43:49 AM »
Can you clarify which sentence is nonfactual, for example?  I'm always open to learning something new. 

What's nonfactual is the emotional appeal demonizing States' Rights using an example (slavery) that should have been irrelevant. Slavery was wrong because it violated the basic human rights of the enslaved, not because it violated the Federal government's "right" to dictate policy to the States. Ditto with the bullshit about marijuana and Sharia law.

Federalism (and by that I mean the separation of powers between Federal, state and local governments) is a good thing, and using slavery as a wedge issue to drive the stampede towards central planning and authoritarianism is a special kind of evil. (Not as evil as slavery itself was, of course... but still evil.)

The North had the right to invade the South over slavery in the 1860s in exactly the same way the UN has the right to invade some third-world country over slavery today: to protect human rights. That does not imply that the UN has some kind of right to dictate (for example) trade policy to that third-world country, in the same way that the Federal government should not have the right to dictate (for example) education policy to the states, except for things like Brown v. Board of Education and Title IX that protect the rights of the students.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2016, 08:44:36 AM »
Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.
Only if you are assuming that a "free market" is the underlying freedom that supersedes all others.  However, in the hierarchy of libertarian values, a free market is NOT the most essential value.  Rather, the right of each individual to their life and liberty (i.e., self-determination) is the axiomatic principle for libertarianism.  Anything else that interferes with that most basic, primary right must be banned (by the state, and by force, if necessary).  Thus, I cannot choose to own or sell a human slave (whether a child or an adult) under a libertarian regime, because by doing so, it would violate that person's right to their life and liberty.

Exactly!  What you're arguing for then is not a true free market, but a limited market - limited by what you feel are reasonable guidelines.  A true free market is a terrible and dangerous thing.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2016, 09:47:55 PM »
in the same way that the Federal government should not have the right to dictate (for example) education policy to the states, except for things like Brown v. Board of Education and Title IX that protect the rights of the students.
If you get rid of the federal education department (possibly a good idea whatever your politics) why push it to the state level?

A state like California is the size of most countries, if I live in N California why does it make more sense for the curriculum to be decided in Sacremento rather than Washington?
Devolve power to individual schools, then if I want to believe in evolution there is a school in town that teaches it - rather than me having to move to a evolution-ist state. 

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2016, 07:55:49 AM »
If you get rid of the federal education department (possibly a good idea whatever your politics) why push it to the state level?

A state like California is the size of most countries, if I live in N California why does it make more sense for the curriculum to be decided in Sacremento rather than Washington?
Devolve power to individual schools, then if I want to believe in evolution there is a school in town that teaches it - rather than me having to move to a evolution-ist state.

Simple: because once it's at the state level -- in some other state -- then it's no longer my business. Maybe devolving it further is a good idea, but at that point it becomes solely the Californians' decision.

In Georgia, on the other hand, sure -- devolve it to the state or city level. And then in Atlanta, sure -- devolve it to the individual school level. But I should have a say on that only because I live in Atlanta.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2016, 08:17:51 AM »
If you get rid of the federal education department (possibly a good idea whatever your politics) why push it to the state level?

A state like California is the size of most countries, if I live in N California why does it make more sense for the curriculum to be decided in Sacremento rather than Washington?
Devolve power to individual schools, then if I want to believe in evolution there is a school in town that teaches it - rather than me having to move to a evolution-ist state.

Simple: because once it's at the state level -- in some other state -- then it's no longer my business. Maybe devolving it further is a good idea, but at that point it becomes solely the Californians' decision.

In Georgia, on the other hand, sure -- devolve it to the state or city level. And then in Atlanta, sure -- devolve it to the individual school level. But I should have a say on that only because I live in Atlanta.

If all schools are run to completely different standards, it stands to reason that there will be wildly different educational outcomes from different schools (significantly more varying than those existing today).  What do you tell the parents of children who have gone through say, Atlanta's school system when it turns out that no university or college will accept them because the school they come from doesn't meet the standards the institution expects?

Even if the Atlanta schools immediately start to adapt to fix their programs, you'll still have generations of people with a useless education.  That seems like a serious concern.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #133 on: September 21, 2016, 08:25:00 AM »
There already are wildly different educational outcomes - having a federal body demanding that at 9:00am all students will simultaneously be on page 97 of a standard textbook (effectively what the British national curriculum was aiming for) doesn't change that.

I don't think having California school standards decided in Sacremento means that every child in Ca is automatically equally prepared for Caltech or Stanford while a kid in Oregon isn't.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #134 on: September 21, 2016, 08:28:31 AM »
There already are wildly different educational outcomes - having a federal body demanding that at 9:00am all students will simultaneously be on page 97 of a standard textbook (effectively what the British national curriculum was aiming for) doesn't change that.

I don't think having California school standards decided in Sacremento means that every child in Ca is automatically equally prepared for Caltech or Stanford while a kid in Oregon isn't.

While I'd agree that there's a lot of room for improvement currently . . . by having hundreds of competing standards you will only increase the difference in educational outcomes.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #135 on: September 21, 2016, 09:37:46 AM »
If all schools are run to completely different standards, it stands to reason that there will be wildly different educational outcomes from different schools (significantly more varying than those existing today).  What do you tell the parents of children who have gone through say, Atlanta's school system when it turns out that no university or college will accept them because the school they come from doesn't meet the standards the institution expects?

Even if the Atlanta schools immediately start to adapt to fix their programs, you'll still have generations of people with a useless education.  That seems like a serious concern.

Which is worse: having outcomes that are not uniform, or having outcomes that are uniformly mediocre while simultaneously infringing everyone's freedom in order to achieve that mediocrity?

Remember: national standards mean that not only do atheist hippies in California get a say in what students in Texas are taught, bible-thumping rednecks in Texas get a say in what students in California are taught too.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #136 on: September 21, 2016, 10:05:42 AM »
Which is worse: having outcomes that are not uniform, or having outcomes that are uniformly mediocre while simultaneously infringing everyone's freedom in order to achieve that mediocrity?

I guess that depends on which school your children go to.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #137 on: September 21, 2016, 10:16:52 AM »
I think my objection to the states having control was that it was more political.
The only advantage of a federal government department is inertia - it stops state A from banning teaching evolution while also stopping state B offering Mandarin immersion business classes.

Which is why if you are going to devolve power it needs to be to the point where the parents have an actual choice to send their kids to school A where they can sing hymns all day or school B where they only study math - the only way to do this (without a national system of school bus hyperloops = my other plan)  is to devolve curriculum to schools.

Doesn't the US already do this with high schools for performing arts, or technology high schools?
 

Pooplips

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #138 on: September 21, 2016, 11:38:51 AM »
I guess I'd have to say I'm a libertarian, although I don't really have any interest in ideological purity; I just want a few of the really important things done. I'd vote for Hillary Clinton if I thought she could and would clean up the mess caused by NHA 1934/FHA. I'd be perhaps even more inclined to vote for someone who acknowledged that our current infrastructure needs the $2 trillion that ASCE says over the next decade, but whose solution is to shrink our infrastructure to a level that makes sense.

Having said that, it really seems weird to me when people say they want small government at every level. I want powerful local governments; I just don't want all the federal and state programs that encourage towns to do really stupid things.

Have you ever heard of Strong Towns? Or read them by chance?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #139 on: September 21, 2016, 11:54:15 AM »

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #140 on: September 21, 2016, 01:33:31 PM »
Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.
Only if you are assuming that a "free market" is the underlying freedom that supersedes all others.  However, in the hierarchy of libertarian values, a free market is NOT the most essential value.  Rather, the right of each individual to their life and liberty (i.e., self-determination) is the axiomatic principle for libertarianism.  Anything else that interferes with that most basic, primary right must be banned (by the state, and by force, if necessary).  Thus, I cannot choose to own or sell a human slave (whether a child or an adult) under a libertarian regime, because by doing so, it would violate that person's right to their life and liberty.

Exactly!  What you're arguing for then is not a true free market, but a limited market - limited by what you feel are reasonable guidelines.  A true free market is a terrible and dangerous thing.

Free market does not mean anarchsim or that there are no enforceable contracts.  I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what free market means might guess that it means no rules or something like a commercial equivalent of a "free for all".  But I really don't get why somebody would go with that guess when it would literally take less than a minute, even with a bad internet connection, to figure out that's not what it means. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2016, 02:00:17 PM »
Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.
Only if you are assuming that a "free market" is the underlying freedom that supersedes all others.  However, in the hierarchy of libertarian values, a free market is NOT the most essential value.  Rather, the right of each individual to their life and liberty (i.e., self-determination) is the axiomatic principle for libertarianism.  Anything else that interferes with that most basic, primary right must be banned (by the state, and by force, if necessary).  Thus, I cannot choose to own or sell a human slave (whether a child or an adult) under a libertarian regime, because by doing so, it would violate that person's right to their life and liberty.

Exactly!  What you're arguing for then is not a true free market, but a limited market - limited by what you feel are reasonable guidelines.  A true free market is a terrible and dangerous thing.

Free market does not mean anarchsim or that there are no enforceable contracts.  I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what free market means might guess that it means no rules or something like a commercial equivalent of a "free for all".  But I really don't get why somebody would go with that guess when it would literally take less than a minute, even with a bad internet connection, to figure out that's not what it means.


Please re-read my post.  I didn't say that contracts are unenforceable in a free market, you've made a mistake.

free mar·ket:
    an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Unrestricted is the important word in the definition.  If you've restricted the selling of slaves, you no longer have a free market - by definition.  You've restricted the markets.

an·ar·chy:
    a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority

When I said 'total freedom is an anything goes anarchy' I was speaking about the moral state of such a system.  That's why I gave several examples of the practices that a free market allows that are morally repugnant.  I suspect that the moral failings inherent to free markets are a large part of the reason that they are never implemented in the real world.

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2016, 03:19:23 PM »
Another Libertarian checking in here.

I want government out of my wallet, out of my bedroom, and out of my gun safe.
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

cheapass

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #143 on: September 21, 2016, 03:21:23 PM »
Now that i am 30, i even see it more when it comes to how much i have been robbed through SS and general taxes.

Just think about how many extra years you'll end up working to pay your bullshit taxes... $38 billion pledged to Israel. Pentagon misplaced $6.5 trillion. etc.
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

Jrr85

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #144 on: September 21, 2016, 03:50:08 PM »
Free markets are proven to work really well under certain limits and in certain circumstances.  I'm not sure that truly free markets have ever existed in history though.  There have always been restrictions in place to govern where any market is allowed to be free, and for good reason.  Total freedom is an anything goes anarchy.

For example, if selling slaves is banned you don't have a free market.  A totally free market would allow for the purchase of children, would allow the poor to sell their organs to the rich (you don't really need both lungs . . . or kidneys).  It's kinda hard to defend a truly free market.
Only if you are assuming that a "free market" is the underlying freedom that supersedes all others.  However, in the hierarchy of libertarian values, a free market is NOT the most essential value.  Rather, the right of each individual to their life and liberty (i.e., self-determination) is the axiomatic principle for libertarianism.  Anything else that interferes with that most basic, primary right must be banned (by the state, and by force, if necessary).  Thus, I cannot choose to own or sell a human slave (whether a child or an adult) under a libertarian regime, because by doing so, it would violate that person's right to their life and liberty.

Exactly!  What you're arguing for then is not a true free market, but a limited market - limited by what you feel are reasonable guidelines.  A true free market is a terrible and dangerous thing.

Free market does not mean anarchsim or that there are no enforceable contracts.  I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what free market means might guess that it means no rules or something like a commercial equivalent of a "free for all".  But I really don't get why somebody would go with that guess when it would literally take less than a minute, even with a bad internet connection, to figure out that's not what it means.


Please re-read my post.  I didn't say that contracts are unenforceable in a free market, you've made a mistake.

free mar·ket:
    an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Unrestricted is the important word in the definition.  If you've restricted the selling of slaves, you no longer have a free market - by definition.  You've restricted the markets.

an·ar·chy:
    a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority

When I said 'total freedom is an anything goes anarchy' I was speaking about the moral state of such a system.  That's why I gave several examples of the practices that a free market allows that are morally repugnant.  I suspect that the moral failings inherent to free markets are a large part of the reason that they are never implemented in the real world.

That doesn't really change anything.  Unrestricted does not mean there is no criminal code.  You go kidnap 7 year old kids out of their back yard and sell them into slavery, no Free market proponent is going to say "gee, slavery is an abomination, but they did enter into a market transaction for the slaves."  If there is somebody advocating for slavery, it's not because they are free market, it's because their conscience is so malformed that they don't understand why slavery is immoral or they just don't care. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2016, 04:27:09 PM »
I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what happened in the slave trade might guess that it didn't involve market transactions or abduction of people.  I really don't get why somebody would go with that guess when it would literally take less than a minute, even with a bad internet connection, to figure out that's exactly actually happened.

If a free market proponent is against slavery, they are for restrictions on the free market.  As we just covered, that would mean it's no longer a free market.  Most "free market" proponents just quibble about which restrictions to place, not the obvious need for restrictions on the market.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2016, 04:39:49 PM »
I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what happened in the slave trade might guess that it didn't involve market transactions or abduction of people. 
In the C17/C18, 50% of the white immigrants to the North American colonies were indentured servants. Only a small minority of these were forced.

Until the C18 the majority of european tradesmen would have served an indentured apprenticeship.
 

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2016, 06:02:46 PM »
I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what happened in the slave trade might guess that it didn't involve market transactions or abduction of people. 
In the C17/C18, 50% of the white immigrants to the North American colonies were indentured servants. Only a small minority of these were forced.

Until the C18 the majority of european tradesmen would have served an indentured apprenticeship.

And what about the non-white ones?
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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2016, 08:21:10 PM »
I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what happened in the slave trade might guess that it didn't involve market transactions or abduction of people. 
In the C17/C18, 50% of the white immigrants to the North American colonies were indentured servants. Only a small minority of these were forced.

Until the C18 the majority of european tradesmen would have served an indentured apprenticeship.

And what about the non-white ones?
More market than free !

Just pointing out that historically slavery has been a free market activity that both parties entered into willingly - at least for limited values of slavery

arebelspy

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Re: Who else here is a libertarian?
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2016, 08:54:42 PM »
I can see how somebody without access to a library or the internet, if forced to make a guess as to what happened in the slave trade might guess that it didn't involve market transactions or abduction of people. 
In the C17/C18, 50% of the white immigrants to the North American colonies were indentured servants. Only a small minority of these were forced.

Until the C18 the majority of european tradesmen would have served an indentured apprenticeship.

And what about the non-white ones?
More market than free !

Just pointing out that historically slavery has been a free market activity that both parties entered into willingly - at least for limited values of slavery

Indentured servitude (which we can debate how "willingly" people participate) is not the same as slavery.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (occasionally) blog at AdventuringAlong.com.
You can also read my forum "Journal."