Where do you stand on "living with Covid", "getting back to normal"

[sui generis]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum.  Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives?  Or are you including masking and testing?

Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick.  I can work at home.  Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick.  Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.

- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER.  When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face.  I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)

- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask.  Ditto in crowded spaces.

- Socializing.  Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).

- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick.  Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks.  If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel.  Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.

- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally.  The sick people did not go!  My DH had a cold, and he stayed home.  Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).

I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.

For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.

I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.

I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on. 

I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not.  And I couldn't remember.  I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask.  Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long.  But you see my point?  I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask.  Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.

[Shane]

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles...

Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history...

[MOD NOTE: This is an intentional misquote by Shane to make it look like Daley was addressing him]

FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.

Wow, sorry you're so hateful and angry Daley. It must really suck to go through life with all of that anger and bitterness inside of you. Feel free to lash out at me - an internet stranger - as much as you like if it makes you feel any better. Seems like seeking out a qualified mental health practitioner to talk with might be better though.
[MOD NOTE: This user has been banned and the rest of the post deleted.  This is just here so we can see the misquote and we all know why Shane was banned]

[GuitarStv]

This is a tricky issue.

We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past.  It's going to be floating around forever.  It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).

For people who have health/immune problems that make covid much worse, this really must feel like society has abandoned you.  And there's a certain amount of truth to that.  It's a valid way to feel.

The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here.  And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world.  And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.

But there also exist a large number of us who are trying to be reasonable about this whole thing.  I've had all my shots.  We seriously isolated during the pandemic.  We religiously wore masks.  And we updated the masks that we wore as research around them changed.  My family and I managed to avoid getting covid right up until last month.

What changed?  We have a 9 year old little boy.  He has had a pretty fucked up last couple years.  We tried to work thing out, but he has had a very limited ability to play with other kids his age.  He has been involved in no sports.  He has had a couple years of not being able to read other people's faces and expressions because everyone was wearing a mask.  So In October I signed our son up for Jiu-Jitsu classes, and we've been going regularly.  He loves them, is making friends, and some behavioral problems that we've had at school have largely disappeared.  But you can't wrestle with a mask on.  Or without being breathed on.  It's a dirty sport, and I knew that it was only a matter of time before we caught covid.  And we did!  The risk was worth it for us.

I personally hate wearing a mask.  I get very bad contact dermatitis from wearing them.  Tried multiple types over this pandemic, it's all the same (I think it's related to the humidity next to my skin).  This translates into large painful red welts and pustules behind my ears, on the top of my nose, on my cheeks and around my mouth.  Going in to the office a couple days a week and wearing a mask has translated into these horrible skin breakouts for the rest of the week.  Small price to pay to keep other people alive, sure.  But super fucking annoying and kinda miserable to deal with.  If I'm visiting my parents, I'll wear one for a couple weeks before hand without question (and do tests to make sure that I'm not sick).  If it seems like there's a particularly new virulent strain of covid going around then maybe at the library or grocery store, sure.  But I'm not going to wear one outdoors.  I'm not going to wear one all day at work any more.


I completely understand where anger is coming from on both sides of this argument.  There are honest to God real consequences, especially to young kids related to masking/isolation.  There are honest to God real consequences for people with immune problems who want everyone to be a hell of a lot more cautious than the anti-vaxx assholes.  Everyone's still trying to figure out our way through this and there's no easy slam-dunk right answer that works for everyone.

[Shane]

So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?

The horror…

You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.

Back around the beginning of the pandemic, when they were still trying to do contact tracing, I remember reading about a scientific study that found that the most likely place people got infected with covid was - not supermarkets, not on public transit - but *in their own homes, from people they lived with*. Given that fact, maybe, "reasonable precautions" should be for people to either live alone, or to mask up, whenever family members or roommates are in their home with them. Anybody not willing to wear an n-95 mask in their own home, at least whenever kids or spouses are around, is a complete "selfish asshole," right?

Nobody's telling you how to live your life. You're free to mask, test, distance, or whatever other precautions you want to take. Why the strong desire to push your way of life on the rest of us? Like I said above, if you had a plausible plan you could explain to us that if we continued doing x,y,z social distancing practices, for x months, years, or whatever, we could hope for some tangible change in our situation regarding covid, I would be all ears. As it is, though, it seems like you're just proposing that we should all avoid crowds? concerts? movies? crowded cafes? restaurants? and bars? And for how long? Forever, right? No, thank you. You're welcome to do that. It won't bother me, at all. But please don't try to shove your way of life down my and my family's throats.

[Kris]

So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?

The horror…

You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.

Back around the beginning of the pandemic, when they were still trying to do contact tracing, I remember reading about a scientific study that found that the most likely place people got infected with covid was - not supermarkets, not on public transit - but *in their own homes, from people they lived with*. Given that fact, maybe, "reasonable precautions" should be for people to either live alone, or to mask up, whenever family members or roommates are in their home with them. Anybody not willing to wear an n-95 mask in their own home, at least whenever kids or spouses are around, is a complete "selfish asshole," right?

Nobody's telling you how to live your life. You're free to mask, test, distance, or whatever other precautions you want to take. Why the strong desire to push your way of life on the rest of us? Like I said above, if you had a plausible plan you could explain to us that if we continued doing x,y,z social distancing practices, for x months, years, or whatever, we could hope for some tangible change in our situation regarding covid, I would be all ears. As it is, though, it seems like you're just proposing that we should all avoid crowds? concerts? movies? crowded cafes? restaurants? and bars? And for how long? Forever, right? No, thank you. You're welcome to do that. It won't bother me, at all. But please don't try to shove your way of life down my and my family's throats.

Yeah. But how did the virus get into the homes in the first place?

This is an example of statistics leading people to a false conclusion.

Most of the rest of what you posted is hyperbole, with a few strawmen tossed in.

(Edit: misspelled “leading”)

[Shane]

Looking back through his posts I'm having a real hard time finding anything Shane has said on this topic that is unreasonable. Being fully vaxed and staunchly supportive of more vulnerable people's right to protect themselves by wearing masks and opting to work from home sounds a lot more like an ally than an enemy.

Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.

[fuzzy math]

This is a tricky issue.

We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past.  It's going to be floating around forever.  It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).


The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here.  And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world.  And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.

COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.

[Shane]

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

Probably until they have more info about covid/long covid and immunocompromised folks and/or treatments that work again.

I know too many people with variations of long covid to feel comfortable throwing caution to the wind. I also avoid the flu during flu season. In the meantime I continue to do grocery pick up and I stay close to home.  When I do go out I wear a good N95.

My kids are now participating in activities and I ask them to put on a mask if kids around them are coughing or sniffling. They do because they love me.

It isn't the end of the world.

I totally support your family's right to live exactly as you are. If you're happy with your quality of life, I'm happy for you.

I mean, of course I'm not happy with my quality of life! I'd love to be able to go and sit in a church service, or see a play, or even attend events at my children's school. I would love for adults to not harass my children when they wear masks.

But I also know that I was hospitalized with post-viral complications form the flu a few years ago, and how sh*tty my immune system has been since then. And illnesses cause autoimmune flares that then require drugs that further suppress my immune system.  And I have young children, and am the primary earner for our family and we have no support network nearby - so I better stay healthy because obviously we live in a society where no one will help us if we need it.

Totally get where you're coming from, StarBright. We've got a close family member who went through organ transplant surgery, right in the middle of the pandemic. In spring 2021, DW flew across the country wearing an N-95 mask on the plane, and for 3 months she lived at her family member's house to help him recover from surgery, all the time wearing an N-95 mask, every time she went out of the house, for any reason. We've got another friend who is a single mom and who is also caring for elderly parents, at the same time as she's caring for her teenage daughter. Those two friends and relatives have different risk profiles from me and my family. I totally support and would never criticize them for living their lives differently from us. It kind of bewilders me, though, how some people in this thread feel totally justified in wishing for my death and other horrible things to happen to me, all because I am "living with covid" and "getting back to normal" sooner than they feel comfortable doing themselves. I'm fine with other people being more cautious than my family and I are. Why is it so hard for people who are in different circumstances, and therefore living differently from us, to accept that not everyone needs to be as careful as they are being?

[GuitarStv]

This is a tricky issue.

We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past.  It's going to be floating around forever.  It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).


The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here.  And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world.  And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.

COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.

Can you cite your sources?  Wuhan, November of 2019 was ground zero in everything that I've read.

[Omy]

Shane, it's not cool to quote someone and delete an entire paragraph of their post to completely change their tone and intent.

[RetiredAt63]

For Covid itself, I am hoping it continues its trend of being less nasty in general.  For vaccinations I am hoping for nasal sprays that prime the ACE receptors in the nose, mouth, and throat so the virus gets stopped there. 

But we also have lessons as a society to learn.  My examples are Canadian, but they apply elsewhere.

One lesson is that our present ventilation systems are crap.  We need more air changes/minute, we need filters or other treatments that kill viruses and bacteria.  It isn't a new lesson, remember Legionnaire's disease?  We just refuse to learn - or really we refuse to spend the money.

Another is that our hospitals and health systems are operating too close to capacity - when something like this comes along we just don't have the capacity.  And I am thinking personnel as much as or more than physical plant.

Another is that there are severe problems with our seniors residences and nursing homes.

Still another is that social response matters a lot.  Nova Scotia did so much better than Ontario with regard to vaccinations and testing and just general social support - so it can be done.  Yes Nova Scotia is small geographically and in population but a larger more populated province like Ontario has proportionally more resources.

Still another is that a lot of low paid jobs are essential jobs (I am thinking of all the grocery store workers as a prime example) - how we pay people as a social value is out of whack. 

People who look at social policy should be examining the last few years to see how anti-social as a social species we have become.


The thing is, we seem as a species to be good at helping each other in emergencies - look at Gander during/after 9/11, and people in Quebec and eastern Ontario during the Ice Storm (1998).  We don't always seem to be good at shifting the social boat as a longer response to longer-term problems.  It can be done - look at the Montreal Protocol re ozone-damaging chemicals.

[Daley]

So, you guys think wishing horrible things, and even death, on strangers you disagree with on the details of how we will all come to terms with, "living with covid," and, eventually, "getting back to normal?"

It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.

It kind of bewilders me, though, how some people in this thread feel totally justified in wishing for my death and other horrible things to happen to me, all because I am "living with covid" and "getting back to normal" sooner than they feel comfortable doing themselves.

Just shut up already with this fictional martyr bullshit. Nobody told you that. Not me, not others who responded positively to what I typed.

You swing around accusations of strawman arguments and evidence of your own self-righteous suffering to justify your actions, your behaviors, and your reasoning while you spew out nothing but half-baked nonsense, playing the "oh innocent me" card and smearing my name to anyone who'll listen because you couldn't actually address it on its own merits.

Meanwhile on your self-righteous tirade spanning hours in this thread, YOU ADMIT TO LITERALLY ABANDONING YOUR OWN MOTHER FOR FOUR YEARS and continue to use the pandemic as an excuse to continue doing so despite demonstrating and exercising the knowledge and resources necessary to be able to safely visit her at any point in the past, while you go around needlessly traveling and doing high risk activities and taking literal unnecessary risks for exposure for a whole lot longer than most sane people have. Because you're vaccinated! You're tired of not having fun anymore! You miss being social! After all, as long as you get to go back to normal, right?

Momma's life is too precious to risk going to visit her for four years under any circumstance, and you'll talk a big game about all that lost time, but apparently it's not precious enough to actually do what you know is necessary to have safely been able to visit the woman multiple times already throughout this fucking nightmare... but that's okay! As long as you get to still go out and eat and drink and watch movies and globe hop and pretend that COVID's no big deal anymore right now, right? After all, you got plans to finally go see her again sometime later this year.

I didn't wish any ill will on you before, and I still don't. I won't even disagree with the fact that the anger that has built inside me at the hands of callous people like yourself through this mess isn't healthy, and yes, I know I need some therapy about all this because I've seen some shit at this point that I wouldn't wish on anyone else. But what I said before still stands. Grow up. You need to call your mother and apologize to her for how you've acted and what you've done. Your family deserves better than this.

[ATtiny85]

Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories.

You lost me here. Talking on planes should be outlawed.

I would like to see people simply practice continued social distancing in simple places like stores. Especially when the place is empty. Stay the hell away from me. I wanted that before COVID. My desired personal space was about four feet, and adding a few more in mid 2020 was delightful.

[Shane]

Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories.

You lost me here. Talking on planes should be outlawed.

I would like to see people simply practice continued social distancing in simple places like stores. Especially when the place is empty. Stay the hell away from me. I wanted that before COVID. My desired personal space was about four feet, and adding a few more in mid 2020 was delightful.

Will definitely keep your advice in mind, ATtiny85. If I see you wearing an n-95 in a store, attempting to social distance, I'll be sure to give you a wide berth. Good luck!

[fuzzy math]

This is a tricky issue.

We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past.  It's going to be floating around forever.  It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).


The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here.  And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world.  And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.

COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.

Can you cite your sources?  Wuhan, November of 2019 was ground zero in everything that I've read.

Google can cite my sources, as well as help you with them

https://www.ormanager.com/briefs/covid-19-antibodiesfound-in-blood-donated-by-americans-in-december-2019/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science/coronavirus-traces-found-in-march-2019-sewage-sample-spanish-study-shows-idUSKBN23X2HQ

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-sewage/italy-sewage-study-suggests-covid-19-was-there-in-december-2019-idINL1N2DV2XE

Can't currently find the "retesting of old swabs" study

[Shane]

So… wearing a mask and taking a few reasonable precautions from time to time is “continuing to live that way”?

The horror…

You're more than welcome to take any "reasonable precautions" you like, Kris. Nobody's stopping you.

Back around the beginning of the pandemic, when they were still trying to do contact tracing, I remember reading about a scientific study that found that the most likely place people got infected with covid was - not supermarkets, not on public transit - but *in their own homes, from people they lived with*. Given that fact, maybe, "reasonable precautions" should be for people to either live alone, or to mask up, whenever family members or roommates are in their home with them. Anybody not willing to wear an n-95 mask in their own home, at least whenever kids or spouses are around, is a complete "selfish asshole," right?

Nobody's telling you how to live your life. You're free to mask, test, distance, or whatever other precautions you want to take. Why the strong desire to push your way of life on the rest of us? Like I said above, if you had a plausible plan you could explain to us that if we continued doing x,y,z social distancing practices, for x months, years, or whatever, we could hope for some tangible change in our situation regarding covid, I would be all ears. As it is, though, it seems like you're just proposing that we should all avoid crowds? concerts? movies? crowded cafes? restaurants? and bars? And for how long? Forever, right? No, thank you. You're welcome to do that. It won't bother me, at all. But please don't try to shove your way of life down my and my family's throats.

Yeah. But how did the virus get into the homes in the first place?

This is an example of statistics leasing people to a false conclusion.

Most of the rest of what you posted is hyperbole, with a few strawmen tossed in.

Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.

[Captain FIRE]

Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.

Daley may not have phrased it gently, but she is right that you could have fairly safely visited your mom at any time by taking precautions.  I've got a friend that goes out and socializes frequently except the two weeks prior to seeing her immune-compromised parent.  Then they do zoom drinks and cancel anything unnecessary (e.g. kids still need to go to school but they'll wear KN95s there).  Just as it's our choice to continue masking, limit large group gatherings unless masked, etc., it's also your choice to indulge in higher risk activities that increase the chances you'd infect her with something. If you need to fly, wear a good fitting N-95 on the plane and at the airport. Take a test. etc.

[Shane]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum.  Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives?  Or are you including masking and testing?

Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick.  I can work at home.  Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick.  Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.

- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER.  When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face.  I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)

- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask.  Ditto in crowded spaces.

- Socializing.  Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).

- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick.  Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks.  If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel.  Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.

- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally.  The sick people did not go!  My DH had a cold, and he stayed home.  Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).

I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.

For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.

I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.

I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on. 

I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not.  And I couldn't remember.  I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask.  Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long.  But you see my point?  I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask.  Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.

Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.

[Shane]

Thank you, Samuel. My family and I spent over two years not doing many of the things we love, not because we were particularly afraid of catching covid ourselves, but mostly because we wanted to protect other, more vulnerable, people in our community. We purposely haven't visited my almost 80 year old mother for going on 4 years now, because we haven't felt comfortable with the risk that we might possibly infect her with anything. We've got plans to visit my mom later this year, but those 4 years we missed out on are never coming back. My daughter missed out on 4 years of seeing her grandmother, in person, and my mom missed out on seeing her granddaughter grow from being a little girl into a young woman. Nobody's going to be able to convince me that that was just "a minor inconvenience." My mom, me, my wife, and our daughter are all fully vaccinated and boosted against covid, so we're going to meet up, in person, in 2023, maybe even ride in a car together and sit together in a restaurant, without masks on. It seems like we should be able to choose to do that, without getting dragged by a bunch of people wishing for my death and calling me a selfish asshole, because we're not passing their covid purity test.

Daley may not have phrased it gently, but she is right that you could have fairly safely visited your mom at any time by taking precautions.  I've got a friend that goes out and socializes frequently except the two weeks prior to seeing her immune-compromised parent.  Then they do zoom drinks and cancel anything unnecessary (e.g. kids still need to go to school but they'll wear KN95s there).  Just as it's our choice to continue masking, limit large group gatherings unless masked, etc., it's also your choice to indulge in higher risk activities that increase the chances you'd infect her with something. If you need to fly, wear a good fitting N-95 on the plane and at the airport. Take a test. etc.

Totally agree with you we *could've* visited my mom safely. We offered, again and again, to either buy my mom a plane ticket to come see us and/or we would've flown to see her. It's been my mother's choice to not have any visits. She literally only leaves her apartment once a week, at 5am on Monday morning, to go shopping at her local supermarket that's just a few blocks from her house. For the rest of the week, she sits in her apartment, because she's too afraid to go outside, because she might catch covid...or monkey pox...or ebola...or whatever other disease du jour the media is scaring people about.

[RetiredAt63]

Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.

The most obvious thing we can do (well not us personally) is improve ventilation.  We know how air moves in rooms.  We know there are ways to kill viruses and bacteria as air passes through the HVAC system.  We just don't want to change the rules to force building owners including school boards) to improve their air quality.

Air changes are easy to measure for adequacy - just measure CO.  Too high CO means too few air changes for the number of people in the room.

Seriously, if I am downwind of someone with a respiratory disease my odds are much higher of catching it than if I am upwind of that person.  Outside is generally safer unless you are in a crowd, because there is just so much more volume of air to dilute the virus. 

[sui generis]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum.  Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives?  Or are you including masking and testing?

Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick.  I can work at home.  Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick.  Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.

- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER.  When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face.  I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)

- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask.  Ditto in crowded spaces.

- Socializing.  Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).

- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick.  Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks.  If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel.  Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.

- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally.  The sick people did not go!  My DH had a cold, and he stayed home.  Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).

I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.

For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.

I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.

I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on. 

I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not.  And I couldn't remember.  I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask.  Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long.  But you see my point?  I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask.  Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.

Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.

But those aren't equivalent actions, so to expect equivalent treatment is unfair.  For someone to choose to wear a mask - they are making a choice that only impacts themselves or, to the extent it impacts others, it is only positive (never dangerous).  Your choice is not the same.  You are making a choice that can be dangerous to others.  Why do you think you shouldn't be criticized for that choice?

Disclaimer that I choose not to wear a mask at some times that certainly some people could accuse me of the same and I know some people would criticize.  I think I'm making fairly balanced choices that keep risk low in a world where you can never eliminate it, so I may still continue my behavior, but I also would not say that people should not be able to criticize my choice of behaviors.  I think it's odd that you think dangerous choices should be able to escape criticism the same way non-dangerous choices do. 

[patchyfacialhair]

What an interesting thread.

My wife found out she was pregnant in late February 2020. We became hermits once March rolled around. No family gatherings. No restaurants, no non-essential trips outside the house. Definitely no playgrounds for my almost 3 year old at the time. Her parents thought we were crazy (they are Trumpers, to paint a picture). My parents were also very cautious, and basically mirrored our behavior.

Fast forward to end-of-summer 2020, and we basically said "screw it." Why? Our kid who was sociable, brave, talkative, and just an absolute sweetheart started getting weird. Spending 6 months locked in the house with no outdoor play with other kids did her no favors. At that point, we figured, lots of other people were living their lives, what were we afraid of? By then the stats were clear that it mostly impacted older, fatter folks with health issues, so we figured we'd take our chances at that point. In January 2020, we had enrolled our kid in preschool for the Fall of 2020, and we decided to follow through with letting her go to school. My wife was late in her pregnancy at that point with our 2nd, but to us, our kid's development was worth taking the chance. It was the best decision for us. Our kid has continued to love school through the years (we have sent her to private schools that remained open), and our 2nd kid has been a blessing as well.

Basically we've been business as usual since the Fall of 2020. I even went to a 50k attendance rock concert last summer. Was a blast. We've caught COVID a couple times, a flu or two, and RSV this last fall. None of that is fun. But at this point I feel pretty strongly that if you want to live a cautious life, do that. But if you want to go buck wild, do that too.

[Shane]

Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.

The most obvious thing we can do (well not us personally) is improve ventilation.  We know how air moves in rooms.  We know there are ways to kill viruses and bacteria as air passes through the HVAC system.  We just don't want to change the rules to force building owners including school boards) to improve their air quality.

Air changes are easy to measure for adequacy - just measure CO.  Too high CO means too few air changes for the number of people in the room.

Seriously, if I am downwind of someone with a respiratory disease my odds are much higher of catching it than if I am upwind of that person.  Outside is generally safer unless you are in a crowd, because there is just so much more volume of air to dilute the virus.

Agree with you that improvements in building HVAC systems can possibly help to reduce the spread of all diseases. I guess I was more talking about individual solutions. One thing we did, during the pandemic, was enroll our daughter in fully online school for over two years, which is the main reason our family was able to go for over two years, without catching covid, finally, last month.

[Shane]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

Well, you have to define social distancing - it's a spectrum.  Also, do you mean do we mean to social distance for the rest of our lives?  Or are you including masking and testing?

Because things that COVID taught me, which are good things:
- There's literally no reason to go to work sick.  I can work at home.  Seriously, nobody wants you at work sick.  Cold, flu, COVID, whatever.

- I will wear a mask on a plane FOREVER.  When I think of the number of years I picked up an illness on planes over the holidays, because some dude was coughing behind me (come to think of it, I got COVID while waiting to board a plane when I dude basically coughed and talked loudly in my face.  I was masked, he was not, and we learned ON THE PLANE that he'd "just had COVID".)

- If I have to be out and about shopping, or whatever, when I have a cold, I'm totally wearing a mask.  Ditto in crowded spaces.

- Socializing.  Most of my socializing is done outdoors anyway (running friends, park potlucks).

- My group of friends and family have learned from COVID to ... not send their kids to someone else's house if they are sick.  Likewise, when I go visit family (particularly the immuno compromised), I make sure to have COVID tests with me and masks.  If we get sick and test positive, it's off to quarantine in a hotel.  Our parents are in their 80s, so duh.

- I recently attended some holiday dinners and parties indoors ... it was before RSV, COVID, and flu really took hold locally.  The sick people did not go!  My DH had a cold, and he stayed home.  Ditto for the wife of a friend (she had COVID, he was long over it).

I totally support your right to live your life exactly as you are. We've also changed for the better, I think, in that, since Covid started, we are much more careful about spreading any kind of virus to other people, especially if they're older or have compromised immune systems. If any of us are sick, even if it's just a cold, we don't go to any enclosed places, where we might infect anyone else. That seems like a positive change that's come about, because of the pandemic.

For some people, I guess, it's no loss to wear an n95 mask on plane flights. In my family, we've taken dozens of flights over the past 15 years, and I can't remember our ever getting sick after flying. Last summer, on a flight from Philadelphia to Orlando, my wife and daughter got to sit together, but I ended up in the middle seat, between two older ladies I didn't know. I'm 56, and my two seatmates were probably in their 60s. None of us wore masks, so we were able to see each other's faces, smile, laugh, tell stories. All three of us were fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. After like two years of trying as hard as possible to stay away from other humans, it felt REALLY good to be vaccinated, and so, be able to make social connections again.

I get it that many other people are in very different positions from us healthwise, and totally respect their rights to continue living more cautiously. My family and I are up to date on our covid booster shots. If one of the pharmaceutical companies comes out with a new covid booster vaccine, sometime next spring, like we've heard, we'll be the first ones in line to get them, not so much to protect ourselves, but mostly to help protect other, more vulnerable, people. We don't want to give our elderly relatives and friends covid, or anything else, for that matter.

I hesitate to quibble here, but....I do just want to point out that you can do 3 of those things (really, 3.5 of them, but I get it that the mouth is more important than, let's say, the forehead) with a mask on. 

I've had a couple of times recently where for some reason I was trying to remember if someone I had just finished conversing with and departed company from was wearing a mask or not.  And I couldn't remember.  I had had substantive conversations, one good, one just neutral, for quite a few minutes, and afterward I could not for the life of me picture whether or not they had been wearing a mask.  Maybe not a surprise, I also couldn't picture what they were wearing and in the case of the person I didn't know well, their hair and other physical description didn't stick with me long.  But you see my point?  I don't think I'm unique in this way, that you can make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask.  Especially if you don't a priori believe that you can't.

Agree with you that it's possible to "make strong and effective connections with people even if they are wearing a mask." In the case of strangers I meet on a plane, though, I'm a lot less likely to engage in a long conversation with someone I don't know, who is sitting next to me on a plane wearing an n-95 mask. To me, the mask signifies that the person is attempting to socially distance and, therefore, might not appreciate being excessively talked to by a stranger. In the case of someone I know well, though, like a family member or close friend, I agree that a mask wouldn't necessarily present any insurmountable challenges to communication. Again, I totally support people who want to wear masks, wearing masks in any place they like. I have no desire to shame or criticize anyone who is still choosing to wear masks, and I expect the same consideration in return.

But those aren't equivalent actions, so to expect equivalent treatment is unfair.  For someone to choose to wear a mask - they are making a choice that only impacts themselves or, to the extent it impacts others, it is only positive (never dangerous).  Your choice is not the same.  You are making a choice that can be dangerous to others.  Why do you think you shouldn't be criticized for that choice?

Disclaimer that I choose not to wear a mask at some times that certainly some people could accuse me of the same and I know some people would criticize.  I think I'm making fairly balanced choices that keep risk low in a world where you can never eliminate it, so I may still continue my behavior, but I also would not say that people should not be able to criticize my choice of behaviors.  I think it's odd that you think dangerous choices should be able to escape criticism the same way non-dangerous choices do.

Personally, I think the whole social distancing thing has been REALLY bad for our country and for humans in general. Wearing masks and isolating ourselves was totally necessary at the beginning of the pandemic, up until effective vaccines were developed and distributed to everyone who wanted them, by around the summer of 2021. Even before covid, loneliness, anger, hatred, fear of others, was off the charts in the US. Now, it's worse. My daughter still has two classmates in her 8th grade class whom, she tells me, she wouldn't recognize if she saw them walking down the street, because she has NEVER SEEN THEIR FACES, after sitting in class with them for over half a school year already. A brother who lives in Norway visited us in the fall of 2021, and he was really surprised to see people in the US walking around outside wearing masks. He told us that the Norwegian equivalent of the CDC had announced, shortly before his trip to the US in October, that "The pandemic was over, and all restrictions, mandates, recommendations were finished. Everyone is free to go back to living their lives as they like." This idea that some Americans seem to be clinging to, that anyone returning to living a normal life is, somehow, immoral or bad, seems really unhealthy to me. People who want to continue isolating should be totally free to do anything they like to reduce their chances of getting sick. Judging others, who have completely different risk profiles, for how they're choosing to live their lives needs to stop already, imho.

[BeanCounter]

What an interesting thread.

My wife found out she was pregnant in late February 2020. We became hermits once March rolled around. No family gatherings. No restaurants, no non-essential trips outside the house. Definitely no playgrounds for my almost 3 year old at the time. Her parents thought we were crazy (they are Trumpers, to paint a picture). My parents were also very cautious, and basically mirrored our behavior.

Fast forward to end-of-summer 2020, and we basically said "screw it." Why? Our kid who was sociable, brave, talkative, and just an absolute sweetheart started getting weird. Spending 6 months locked in the house with no outdoor play with other kids did her no favors. At that point, we figured, lots of other people were living their lives, what were we afraid of? By then the stats were clear that it mostly impacted older, fatter folks with health issues, so we figured we'd take our chances at that point. In January 2020, we had enrolled our kid in preschool for the Fall of 2020, and we decided to follow through with letting her go to school. My wife was late in her pregnancy at that point with our 2nd, but to us, our kid's development was worth taking the chance. It was the best decision for us. Our kid has continued to love school through the years (we have sent her to private schools that remained open), and our 2nd kid has been a blessing as well.

Basically we've been business as usual since the Fall of 2020. I even went to a 50k attendance rock concert last summer. Was a blast. We've caught COVID a couple times, a flu or two, and RSV this last fall. None of that is fun. But at this point I feel pretty strongly that if you want to live a cautious life, do that. But if you want to go buck wild, do that too.

This is similar to our experience. We felt we HAD to make difficult choices for our kids. Had we not had children we might have stayed in our bubble longer.
I no longer subscribe to the opinion that I have to wear a mask to protect others. I think last year maybe? There was data that came out that said one person wearing an N95 protected them enough. I’ll have to see if I can find that. So we as a family don’t feel a need to mask for ourselves, but will if others want us to in a situation.
For me the mask is a difficulty to communication and connection. I have some hearing loss and the muffled sound is harder to hear and I need to see people’s lips to help me understand. So while I completely support your right to mask and think some people definitely should, I likely won’t be able to hear you well.

[GuitarStv]

This is a tricky issue.

We had a window to control Covid, and that window has long past.  It's going to be floating around forever.  It no longer seems like it's going to be possible for even the most careful person to avoid catching it (probably multiple times).


The same assholes who refuse to vaccinate and had to travel the world during the pandemic are still here.  And yep, it's due to their actions that covid is now a permeant fixture in the world.  And they have invented all sorts of new assholery to continue being giant assholes.

COVID was well seeded throughout the world before it was even known to be a thing. It was found in multiple country's blood product supplies, viral testing swabs and waste water as early as Sept 2019, which means it was widespread then. Its deluded thinking to think that there was a window to shut it down. We've all seen how insidious it was in China, despite the huge efforts it required to lock residents down in their home time and time again when it would pop up in a community.

Can you cite your sources?  Wuhan, November of 2019 was ground zero in everything that I've read.

Google can cite my sources, as well as help you with them

https://www.ormanager.com/briefs/covid-19-antibodiesfound-in-blood-donated-by-americans-in-december-2019/

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0300891620974755

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science/coronavirus-traces-found-in-march-2019-sewage-sample-spanish-study-shows-idUSKBN23X2HQ

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-sewage/italy-sewage-study-suggests-covid-19-was-there-in-december-2019-idINL1N2DV2XE

Can't currently find the "retesting of old swabs" study

Thanks, I'll check those out (although the first link is dead).


There's also a helpful summary of alternate origin theories that the Chinese embassy in Germany has collected:  http://de.china-embassy.gov.cn/det/zt/BekaempfungCOVID19/202108/t20210807_9046031.htm

[wenchsenior]

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

I don't get any say in the matter anymore, exactly because of the a-holes in this world who refused to mask or vaccinate in the first place, and are continuing to do without because, "lol, COVID's here to stay! why's it fucking matter you whiny snowflake!?" COVID didn't have to be a forever thing. SARS outbreaks had been contained and stopped before. Traditions of masking in Asian countries have shown dramatic reductions in air-borne illness transmissions, especially with COVID. Herd immunity with vaccinations have been proven to work if you get enough people on board. We nearly eradicated polio, smallpox, measles...

Well, you got your fucking precious personal freedom, and you've robbed me and millions of others of their own capacity to socialize and live even remotely normal lives again... and that's just those of us who survived getting sick with it. It's been twenty-two days for me, and still counting, on recovery. It has been the sickest I've been in my life, and that's saying something given my medical history...

FUCK YOU. I HOPE YOUR LIFE IS AS PAINFUL, LONELY, AND MISERABLE AS THE DEATH I WISH UPON YOU.

Wow, sorry you're so hateful and angry Daley. It must really suck to go through life with all of that anger and bitterness inside of you. Feel free to lash out at me - an internet stranger - as much as you like if it makes you feel any better. Seems like seeking out a qualified mental health practitioner to talk with might be better though.

It seems like you're mostly arguing against a straw man. My family and I are all fully vaccinated and boosted against Covid-19. If new variant specific covid vaccines become available in the spring, as we've heard they might, we'll be the first ones in line to get boosted again.

Last month, family and I caught covid on a trip to NYC. I first started to show symptoms of a runny nose, as we were already on the train headed towards home. As soon as we realized we had covid, family and I isolated ourselves at home, just eating food from the bottom of our freezer and out of the pantry. We just didn't go outside of our house for a full week. Then, for another week, at least, we went for walks to exercise outside, but didn't go inside any stores or restaurants. I got the most sick, which was kind of a moderate cold. My wife had a real mild cold, and our daughter only had the sniffles for a couple of days. We didn't go around any other people, until all of our symptoms were gone, and we were well past the 5-10 days currently recommended by the CDC.

In a thread titled, "Where do you stand on 'living with Covid', 'getting back to normal'" I asked what seemed to me to be a reasonable question:

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

If you told me your plan was you wanted everyone to social distance, test, do contact tracing, or whatever, for a specific amount of time and, then, there was some achievable goal that you were hoping to reach that would make things somehow better, I would be totally onboard with doing whatever the experts told us would possibly work to eradicate covid or at least make it less virulent or less deadly or whatever. But, if your plan is that everyone in the whole world, whether we're immunocompromised, old, young, whatever, we all should never go to a concert again, or don't go to football games where you're in a huge stadium with 50K+ other people, or don't go to tiny indie cinemas to see cool films, don't drink coffee in crowded cafes, don't go to indoor parties in the winter, FOREVER! FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES! and if any of us are not all, immediately, on board with your plans, then, you think wishing for my death and calling me names is a reasonable way to have a conversation? Really?:

Thank you for saying this.  I'm so tired of selfish assholes.

Thumbs WAY up on this response. 

One thing I will add, if I may, is much of this would never have happened if the orange "politician who shall not be named" and his team would not have turned the covid vax into a political football.  It was a damned shame.  I can elaborate further all day...but I think I will leave it at that.

This x1000. Thank you for saying what so many of us have kept bottled up inside for so long.

So, you guys think wishing horrible things, and even death, on strangers you disagree with on the details of how we will all come to terms with, "living with covid," and, eventually, "getting back to normal?" You think that's a totally normal, healthy way to have a discussion? Man, it must really suck to believe so strongly that you are right and just and perfect and good, and anyone who disagrees with you, even a little bit, is a horrible person, whom you feel, apparently, totally comfortable dehumanizing to the point that your "compassion" and "empathy" make you so angry you spew hateful insults and wishes of death on strangers on the internet.

It must suck to be so angry. It's an unfortunate fact that millions of people's mental health has really suffered, during the pandemic. Good luck dealing with all of that hatred and anger inside of yourselves. You're not hurting me by swearing or wishing for my death. It just seems pitiful, tbh.

I'm not angry. I'm just tired. As I stated. No need for therapy (I actually thrived during the pandemic, emotionally speaking, apart from the stress of worrying about infection).  ETA: Also, you selectively edited the original post to make it seem like Daley was wishing you death, when the inverse was the point... nice going, there.

[dandarc]

Shane - when you edit and clip out meaningful stuff from a post, you're the piece of shit. Nobody wrote they wished death upon you, but you cut down the post to make it appear so. So, respectfully, you can go fuck yourself.

ETA: the words Shane so deliberately clipped from the original post before the all caps "to help you understand exactly what you're effectively telling people like me:"

[RetiredAt63]

Generally, the virus gets into the homes in the first place by either adults catching it at work or kids catching it at school - both places where people spend hours and hours together, often in tight spaces, with poor ventilation. Kids need to go to school and most adults need to go to work, so, not much we can do, other than just get used to the fact that covid is going to be with us for the rest of our lives.

The most obvious thing we can do (well not us personally) is improve ventilation.  We know how air moves in rooms.  We know there are ways to kill viruses and bacteria as air passes through the HVAC system.  We just don't want to change the rules to force building owners including school boards) to improve their air quality.

Air changes are easy to measure for adequacy - just measure CO.  Too high CO means too few air changes for the number of people in the room.

Seriously, if I am downwind of someone with a respiratory disease my odds are much higher of catching it than if I am upwind of that person.  Outside is generally safer unless you are in a crowd, because there is just so much more volume of air to dilute the virus.

Agree with you that improvements in building HVAC systems can possibly help to reduce the spread of all diseases. I guess I was more talking about individual solutions. One thing we did, during the pandemic, was enroll our daughter in fully online school for over two years, which is the main reason our family was able to go for over two years, without catching covid, finally, last month.

We are all doing our individual solutions.  What are our various levels of government doing to analyse what worked and what didn't?  What changes are they implementing?  If we as individual citizens don't ask them, they will happily ignore the problem.

[mm1970]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

My wife works in Peds. It's WAY worse this year than normal, and most of the Pediatricians privately say the same thing. They also mostly haven't vaccinated their own children even though publicly they have to support and recommend it or risk losing their license.

But that's not what you were saying.  You said "your kids are sick more because they weren't around other kids" during COVID.  I'm saying, specifically my kids are sick every single October and January (and often other months too...FB memories are the gift that keeps on giving).  I am well aware that there's COVID, flu, and RSV this year (as opposed to cold and flu years).  I do read the news.

As far as what your doctors and Peds do...well, I don't know where you live.  Our ped has vaxxed all his children (fully vaxxed). He wrote multiple articles in the local paper over many years encouraging the practice. The entire office went to virtual annual appts during the height of COVID, the flu shots were drive up and outdoors.  The whole "doctors not vaxxing" sadly probably has a LOT more to do with your local politics.  Our entire school district requires COVID vaccination to attend school (and all others, also).

[mm1970]

I would also be super interested in the data showing COVID was around earlier - as well as wondering why it took off so quickly?

Hey, our schools were closed for a year, and when it came time to go back, my 9th grader said he wanted to stay remote and I said "the fuck you are".  They were back at school (with masks), and eventually the masks came off.  Now he's a typical grumpy 11th grader who tells me nothing, is sure that *I* know nothing, and barely mentions what his friends are up to.  AKA, a typical teenager.  (As opposed to the 24/7 WFH/ remote learning, where I legit had to go on meds).

[Gronnie]

The kids are getting sick at school because they were masked and distanced through an entire cycle of illnesses and now have minimal immune defense against it.

Masks and distancing are a net negative for most people.

Nah, man, my kids always get sick at school.  I mean, my FB memories are full of illness every October and January - COVID has nothing to do with it.  (Actually, my kids were sick October 2020 too, it was wild!  We almost never left the house!)

My wife works in Peds. It's WAY worse this year than normal, and most of the Pediatricians privately say the same thing. They also mostly haven't vaccinated their own children even though publicly they have to support and recommend it or risk losing their license.

But that's not what you were saying.  You said "your kids are sick more because they weren't around other kids" during COVID.  I'm saying, specifically my kids are sick every single October and January (and often other months too...FB memories are the gift that keeps on giving).  I am well aware that there's COVID, flu, and RSV this year (as opposed to cold and flu years).  I do read the news.

As far as what your doctors and Peds do...well, I don't know where you live.  Our ped has vaxxed all his children (fully vaxxed). He wrote multiple articles in the local paper over many years encouraging the practice. The entire office went to virtual annual appts during the height of COVID, the flu shots were drive up and outdoors.  The whole "doctors not vaxxing" sadly probably has a LOT more to do with your local politics.  Our entire school district requires COVID vaccination to attend school (and all others, also).

It's exactly what I'm saying. Yes kids get sick every year, but it's way worse this year.

Also, requiring children to get COVID vaccines to attend school is borderline criminal imo.

[RetiredAt63]

It's exactly what I'm saying. Yes kids get sick every year, but it's way worse this year.

Some years are worse than others.  Strains mutate.  Strains whose mutations let them be more transmissible are more noticeable, and if they cause worse symptoms they are more noticeable.

Remember the 2009 H1N1 flu?  It was bad and there was no other pandemic potentially affecting immune response.

[RetiredAt63]

Ignore my previous post - I just read an interview with an epidemiologist from the University of Toronto.  What seems to be happening is not that children have not been exposed to pathogens over the last few years and that has weakened their immune systems.  What is surfacing is that the children who get really sick are those who previously had Covid - Covid is known to damage T cells, and these kids have weaker immune systems now.

Extrapolating, this implies that people who have had Covid should be taking more precautions against infections from RSV and the flu and colds, not fewer - because anyone who has had Covid may have had damage done to their T cells.

This is not new - think AIDS.

[Omy]

Really interesting (assuming this was the link you referred to RetireAt63):

https://torontolife.com/city/i-was-appalled-to-see-the-prime-minister-making-those-comments-a-u-of-t-epidemiologist-on-the-myth-of-immunity-debt-and-the-real-reason-everyones-getting-sick

[StarBright]

Ignore my previous post - I just read an interview with an epidemiologist from the University of Toronto.  What seems to be happening is not that children have not been exposed to pathogens over the last few years and that has weakened their immune systems.  What is surfacing is that the children who get really sick are those who previously had Covid - Covid is known to damage T cells, and these kids have weaker immune systems now.

Extrapolating, this implies that people who have had Covid should be taking more precautions against infections from RSV and the flu and colds, not fewer - because anyone who has had Covid may have had damage done to their T cells.

This is not new - think AIDS.

This has been our anecdotal experience.

One of my colleagues has a child that has been in daycare since they reopened late 2020, the kid was a toddler so they were never masked. The little boy caught covid spring of 2022 and has caught EVERYTHING since then. They had to take him to the hospital for oxygen twice during the fall because RSV and then a cold just wrecked him.

We've seen the difference in our own house as well. Interestingly my kids' classrooms were almost set up like experiments last year. I offered to buy their classrooms nice air purifiers. Daughter's teacher was very covid careful and even made his own Corsi-Rosenthal box (and welcomed an additional air purifier). Son's teacher said she wasn't interested and COVID was "over." Guess which child caught covid? StarBoy ran fevers for two weeks straight and then for a day or two a week for two months thereafter. It was rough! He missed like 18 days of school and we had to have a truancy hearing.

Now I have one kid that had covid and one who didn't. Covid kid seemed to catch every summer cold, daughter never ran a fever - they were in the same summer camp and group so were exposed to all the same bugs.

Daughter brought home flu in December. She ran a low fever for 48 hours and was back at school. Son missed 6 days of school and ran high fevers for 8 days and has now developed a tic

Sure it is just anecdotes- but it has definitely been our experience.

[Gronnie]

JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?

[Kris]

JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?

Actually, "they" will say that our immune systems have gotten weak after two years of coddling behind masks and under lockdowns, with no evidence other than reading anecdotes through their own confirmation bias lenses.

Epidemiologists, on the other hand, are doing their best to debunk that "convenient" myth.

But you know what they say: a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth puts on its shoes.

[neo von retorch]

A virus that attacks a lot of important parts of the body, especially the respiratory and cardiovascular system... might weaken the body against other respiratory illnesses!

That's... crazy talk. What will they think of next?!

[RetiredAt63]

Really interesting (assuming this was the link you referred to RetireAt63):

https://torontolife.com/city/i-was-appalled-to-see-the-prime-minister-making-those-comments-a-u-of-t-epidemiologist-on-the-myth-of-immunity-debt-and-the-real-reason-everyones-getting-sick

Yes, this was the article.  Very thought-provoking.

[RetiredAt63]

Ignore my previous post - I just read an interview with an epidemiologist from the University of Toronto.  What seems to be happening is not that children have not been exposed to pathogens over the last few years and that has weakened their immune systems.  What is surfacing is that the children who get really sick are those who previously had Covid - Covid is known to damage T cells, and these kids have weaker immune systems now.

Extrapolating, this implies that people who have had Covid should be taking more precautions against infections from RSV and the flu and colds, not fewer - because anyone who has had Covid may have had damage done to their T cells.

This is not new - think AIDS.

This has been our anecdotal experience.

One of my colleagues has a child that has been in daycare since they reopened late 2020, the kid was a toddler so they were never masked. The little boy caught covid spring of 2022 and has caught EVERYTHING since then. They had to take him to the hospital for oxygen twice during the fall because RSV and then a cold just wrecked him.

We've seen the difference in our own house as well. Interestingly my kids' classrooms were almost set up like experiments last year. I offered to buy their classrooms nice air purifiers. Daughter's teacher was very covid careful and even made his own Corsi-Rosenthal box (and welcomed an additional air purifier). Son's teacher said she wasn't interested and COVID was "over." Guess which child caught covid? StarBoy ran fevers for two weeks straight and then for a day or two a week for two months thereafter. It was rough! He missed like 18 days of school and we had to have a truancy hearing.

Now I have one kid that had covid and one who didn't. Covid kid seemed to catch every summer cold, daughter never ran a fever - they were in the same summer camp and group so were exposed to all the same bugs.

Daughter brought home flu in December. She ran a low fever for 48 hours and was back at school. Son missed 6 days of school and ran high fevers for 8 days and has now developed a tic

Sure it is just anecdotes- but it has definitely been our experience.

One data point - basically a paired experiment.  Two different ventilation systems, 2 different outcomes in who catches Covid, 2 different responses to subsequent infections.

It would be so useful if some group could collect many data points like this - schools where siblings were in different rooms with different ventilation quality, and follow the siblings to see the results.  I am guessing it would be very difficult to do, because finding those classrooms would be really difficult, I doubt they are documented. 

But it does show the value of good air filtration, eh?  I was going to say, doesn't it, but eh is so much better.     ;-)

[RetiredAt63]

JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?

Seriously?  Covid is a disease that has been shown to attack the immune system, which is why most people had respiratory disease but there were also other organs attacked, and you think it won't have long-term effects?  Lots of diseases have long-term effects.  Chicken-pox can result in shingles years later and people who had mild polio cases had recurring issues decades later.  Scarlet fever was also called rheumatic fever because of the heart damage it caused, totally separate from the infectious symptoms.  Measles could cause blindness in severe cases.  Oh, and AIDS - definitely an immune system disease, which is why people were dying of rare cancers that the body has no trouble dealing with if it has a good immune system.

Really there needs to be a high school course that looks at the history of disease and health policy.  Students who go on to become politicians would benefit the most, because then they might have an inkling of understanding about why they should have decent funding to municipal water treatment plants and waste water treatment plants, and other public health measures.  Looking at you, Walkerton.

[mm1970]

Also, requiring children to get COVID vaccines to attend school is borderline criminal imo.

Meh, they require all the other vaccinations also.  That was started a few years ago (statewide), and thus a friend of mine started homeschooling her kid after 6th/ before 7th grade.

JFC, "they" will blame anything on Covid won't they. How convenient is that?

Epidemiology much?

[ATtiny85]

Really there needs to be a high school course that looks at the history of disease and health policy.

Critical Disease Theory, not sure it will gain traction.

[Poundwise]

Measles could cause blindness in severe cases. 

Measles encephelitis killed the 7 year old daughter of Roald Dahl, author of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory".

[RetiredAt63]

Measles could cause blindness in severe cases. 

Measles encephelitis killed the 7 year old daughter of Roald Dahl, author of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory".

That was rare but did happen.  The childhood diseases could be very nasty, and sometimes lethal.  With widespread immunization people have forgotten this. 

Mumps - mumps was not so bad as a child.  Mumps in adult men could cause sterility. 

German measles if a woman was in the first trimester of pregnancy could cause birth defects.  One of Agatha Christie's plots revolved around this.

[Captain FIRE]

Noted ethicist Art Caplan was paralyzed by polio as a kid (he experienced a spontaneous and inexplicable  cure - told me he jumped out of his bath and ran down the hall naked when he could suddenly move his legs again).

People forget/don’t realize how bad some of these diseases were before vaccines.

[RetiredAt63]

Noted ethicist Art Caplan was paralyzed by polio as a kid (he experienced a spontaneous and inexplicable  cure - told me he jumped out of his bath and ran down the hall naked when he could suddenly move his legs again).

People forget/don’t realize how bad some of these diseases were before vaccines.

Those of us of a certain age lived through a lot of this.  To younger people it is just stories. 

Unless of course it happened to a family member, then it is family history and more real. 

[Cranky]

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

I'm an old lady, and I avoided crowds in flu season long before Covid came along. I plan to carry on with my life and mask indoors for the rest of my life. Really.

I'm perfectly content to take a Covid test as needed. I'd be happy if I had influenza tests in my cupboard, too.

My life *is* normal.

[RetiredAt63]

For those of you still practicing social distancing, masking, testing, etc., how long do you propose continuing to live that way? Scientists tell us that Covid-19 is here to stay. It's not going away, ever. So, are you planning on social distancing for the rest of your lives? Really?

I'm an old lady, and I avoided crowds in flu season long before Covid came along. I plan to carry on with my life and mask indoors for the rest of my life. Really.

I'm perfectly content to take a Covid test as needed. I'd be happy if I had influenza tests in my cupboard, too.

My life *is* normal.

I've been getting annual flu shots for years.  Being retired means avoiding crowded stores is easy, been doing that for years as well.  Plus I find curb-side pickup for groceries is more efficient than in-store shopping, so I will continue to do it as well.

When the nasal spray vaccines come out I will be in line as soon as I am eligible.