Author Topic: Where are my insomniacs at?  (Read 8322 times)

maisymouser

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Where are my insomniacs at?
« on: June 29, 2022, 01:07:37 AM »
Posting at 3AM because why not? Nothing else seems like fun to do :)

I don't think I fit the clinical definition of an insomniac- my occasional waking-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night doesn't usually mess me up the following day. Since COVID, I've found myself occasionally lying awake and wasting my time away in bed, so usually I get up and do some light (and quiet) chores, run online errands, then feel a little tired again and fall back asleep for a couple more hours of shut-eye. Doesn't usually happen more than 2-3x/month. Heck, sometimes I fit in a couple of boring work tasks to declutter my brain just a tiny bit more and to make me want to nod off. On paper this sounds kind of unhealthy but it works well for me.

Tonight is not so much the case- I just really couldn't fall asleep. No amount of visualization, meditation, sleepy podcasts, or telling my inner self that stuff just doesn't need thought about until the morning did the trick. I think it's because DH had a fairly common surgery but it went *slightly* not according to plan, he took much longer to recover from anesthesia than expected, and he was in a whole lot of pain when he woke up. I was super anxious even though it was all going to be fine all along. The day's stressful events are tumbling around in my body even though my brain knows the tough part's over and he's on the road to recovery.

What do you do when you can't sleep (but are accepting that it might just not happen)? If you are awake for more than a couple hours in bed do you give up like me, or tough it out until the morning? How are humans supposed to sleep, anyway? What sleep cycles are "best" assuming we aren't following a rigid work schedule or slaves to clocks?

Frankies Girl

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2022, 01:52:30 AM »
I have always been a night owl, and done best on a graveyard schedule. LOVED working a 10p-6a shift for a couple of years and never felt so focused and on the ball.

I have rounds of insomnia where I'm up for 24+ hours. I think my record was 72 hours straight. I have anxiety and can't shut my brain off when this sort of thing gets going. No amount of relaxation/meditation methods work for me. I have even had prescription strength meds that can't touch it when it's going on sometimes, so I rarely bother with them now. I usually try to medicate when I'm exhaused and can't turn off the brain but if I know I have nothing on schedule for a day or so, I let the insomnia run the show and just figure I'll sleep when I sleep - eventually.

Usually I read, doom scroll, do basic chores, or work on art projects. My goal is to have a separate workshop eventually where I can go and blast music and putter with art and tinker around when I can't sleep, but as of now I have to be quiet as I live with a spouse that can and does want to sleep when I'm still up and trying to do things.

Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2022, 12:07:02 PM »
Okay if our family's dog post here? She's waking up awfully early lately. 

Poundwise

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2022, 12:18:01 PM »
I wake up before 7 no matter how late I go to bed. And I periodically wake up between 3 and 4 am as well.

What sometimes helps is if I just face the facts that I'm not going to get sleep. So like you, I get up and do something. I try to do an internal check: am I sleepless because thirsty, have to pee, too cold, too hot, too much light in the room, bed made badly, congested? I try to address these issues without waking my spouse. Sometimes it helps.

Also if I feel that the sleeplessness is due to anxiety or mind racing, I jot down everything that is bugging me in a long list on my computer, then add a couple of things I need to do to address each problem.  Sometimes that helps because I think my brain is afraid it's going to forget stuff, so it keeps revisiting the worries. But once it's assured that everything is written down, I can relax.

Sometimes I can't sleep because I'm anxious about work due the next day or an upcoming very busy day. In which case, the only thing that helps is to actually get a head start on the work, or prep my bags, etc.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2022, 01:39:34 PM »
For me, sleep is like a record spinning on a turntable with the needle in a groove.  Sometimes it's fine, but when it starts to skip it needs a hand to guide things back to normal . . . or it'll keep skipping forever.

So that boils down to:

Routine
-  I get up at exactly the same time every day, and go to sleep at exactly the same time every day.  Including on weekends.  My natural inclination is to randomly sleep whenever and get up whenever.  This may work when retired, but is not compatible with a job.

Sleep Hygiene
- No light of any kind in the bedroom.  I have blackout curtains over blackout blinds and have done a lot of tinkering to completely remove all light. 
- No noise.  Living in a city, this can be tough.  I wear earplugs pretty regularly now so that small noises in the house don't wake me up.  The earplugs can be irritating so you may have to try several different brands to find some that are acceptable to you.
- Cooler temperature.  I have a tendency to overheat and then not be able to fall asleep.  Certain types of sheets seem to help with this, as does sleeping directly on the floor rather than on a mattress.  Room fan helps, as does minimal heavy comforters (even in winter).

Exercise
- You can't force yourself to sleep by exercising, but being physically exhausted on a regular basis definitely helps me.  I have trouble sleeping though if I exercise within a an hour or two of bedtime.

Caffeine
- I was a regular coffee drinker for a long time (at one point drinking about a pot and a half a day).  I very rarely drink any caffeinated beverage any more (usually once a week first thing in the morning before a long bike ride), and the positive impact on my sleep has been significant.  I used to think that drinking coffee didn't impact my sleep.  That was very, very incorrect.

Screens
- No screens before bed.  At least for me, any screens within an hour or two of bed time seems to negatively impact my sleep.

Be Comfortable With Occasionally Giving Up
- Trying to get back to sleep can itself be stressful.  I don't stress it any more.  If I can't get back to sleep in 20-30 minutes, I'll just get up and read or play guitar for a few hours and then try again.  Some nights you're just not going to get sleep.

Weed
- I'm hesitant to recommend drugs, as I believe that they're a last resort kind of thing that people often reach for first rather than doing the other (usually more beneficial) stuff first.  But for me, when my sleeping becomes disrupted a 30 mg CBD / 1 mg THC tincture taken sublingually an hour before bedtime very reliably provides me with a good night's sleep.  After a couple nights sleeping well then I get back in the groove and don't need it any more.


I've come to accept that I'll never sleep well all the time, but I've also stopped accepting that my sleep is doomed to be horrible all the time.  With everything above, I've gone from years of bad sleep (like 2-3 hours a night) for 85-90% of the time to getting good sleep (about 8 hrs) for 85-90% of nights.

Dreamer40

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2022, 08:29:06 PM »
I could mostly copy and paste GuitarStv’s post. Though I do drink a single shot of espresso in the morning. And don’t like weed.

I do everything “right” but still go through cycles of crap sleep. The cycles seem to start and end totally at random, lasting anywhere from a few nights to months at a time.

On my worst nights, I quietly straighten up the downstairs, fold laundry, or find something boring to organize. Sometimes I read. Poetry is better than a novel because I won’t get hooked on it and keep reading if I start getting sleepy again.

Sometimes Headspace sleepcasts are a life saver. Other times, they make me incredibly annoyed.

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2022, 08:35:31 PM »

Caffeine
- I was a regular coffee drinker for a long time (at one point drinking about a pot and a half a day).  I very rarely drink any caffeinated beverage any more (usually once a week first thing in the morning before a long bike ride), and the positive impact on my sleep has been significant.  I used to think that drinking coffee didn't impact my sleep.  That was very, very incorrect.


How long did the caffeine detox/headaches last? I remember feeling awful when I cut back/out on coffee when I was pregnant/nursing. I only drink more now and the fear of the headaches is keeping me from stopping. I feel like I can't afford to be incapacitated for basically any amount of time.

evme

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2022, 01:46:02 AM »
I had to look up the definition of "insomniac" because I'm not sure if I fit the bill. Definitely got some wacky sleep issues though.

insomniac
noun

a person who is regularly unable to sleep.

I'm regularly able to sleep so I suppose I'm not technically an insomniac. It's just that I sleep extremely late hours. As in, most nights I can't fall asleep until 4 am or later. Crazy late. I've lived like this for many years and only recently found out there's a sleep disorder for this condition called Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder (DSPD). It's a real thing and there are actually quite a few people that have it. I've tried extremely hard to adjust my sleep schedule to earlier hours and NOTHING works. I can try getting up early and I'll just feel jet-lagged all day but still don't get tired at a normal hour. It's such a bummer too as I love to hike and early morning is typically the best time for that, but I can never go to sleep early enough to be up at the crack of dawn. 

Dicey

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2022, 02:00:30 AM »
Um, hi?

Josiecat22222

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2022, 06:15:53 AM »
I go through phases where it is hard to go to sleep or stay asleep (which are actually categorized differently as sleep disorders).  Aside from the steps listed by @GuitarStv , I have found listening to a relatively boring audiobook helps me get to sleep.  I love to read, but the light keeps me up (and DH!!!) but I slip in headphones and keep my eyes closed and find this works pretty well!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2022, 06:20:27 AM »
GuitarStv - Have you used CBD for a week or more and then stopped?  I've heard some insomnia drugs, when taken regularly, cause "rebound wakefulness" when someone quits them.  For a time, insomnia gets even worse.

Surprising that the first two posts didn't mention the best book I've read on the subject of sleep & insomnia, "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker.
https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams-ebook/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5/

There's actually two kinds of insomnia: one where you have trouble getting to sleep initially, and another where you wake up early and can't get back to sleep.  I recently had several days of being unable to sleep more than 4 hours... and then bam!  I slept 11 hours in one night.  For insomnia, that's pretty much winning the lottery.  And like most lottery winners, I spent it immediately - couldn't sleep at all the next night.

One thing people without insomnia might not understand - insomnia isn't about being tired or not.  I've taken a painkiller with a sleepiness side effect, and I was too tired to get out of bed or open my eyes, but still unable to sleep.  To fall asleep, the activity control of the brain has to shut down, and it seems like some people don't shut down as easily.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2022, 06:28:05 AM »
I go through phases where it is hard to go to sleep or stay asleep (which are actually categorized differently as sleep disorders).  Aside from the steps listed by @GuitarStv , I have found listening to a relatively boring audiobook helps me get to sleep.  I love to read, but the light keeps me up (and DH!!!) but I slip in headphones and keep my eyes closed and find this works pretty well!
Have you tried blue-blocking glasses?  About $15 for a pack of 12 on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07K4XGXVL/

Our brains have blue light detectors to sense daytime, which is what most screens produce in excess.  Blocking that can make a big difference in sleepiness.  There's also amber book lights which don't produce blue light.  I prefer to avoid the "3 mode" lights and stick to a light that only produces amber (non-blue) light.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZVKFQLR/

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2022, 07:07:08 AM »
GuitarStv - Have you used CBD for a week or more and then stopped?  I've heard some insomnia drugs, when taken regularly, cause "rebound wakefulness" when someone quits them.  For a time, insomnia gets even worse.

No.  Two or three days at most, and it seems to get me on track again and I'm usually good for a month or two.  For me, once I get back into the sleeping groove, it tends to stick for a while.  This is sort of a last resort thing when nothing else works.  I'm always leery about taking medication for sleep - I've read far too many stories of people having problems afterwards.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2022, 07:12:45 AM »

Caffeine
- I was a regular coffee drinker for a long time (at one point drinking about a pot and a half a day).  I very rarely drink any caffeinated beverage any more (usually once a week first thing in the morning before a long bike ride), and the positive impact on my sleep has been significant.  I used to think that drinking coffee didn't impact my sleep.  That was very, very incorrect.


How long did the caffeine detox/headaches last? I remember feeling awful when I cut back/out on coffee when I was pregnant/nursing. I only drink more now and the fear of the headaches is keeping me from stopping. I feel like I can't afford to be incapacitated for basically any amount of time.

I quit cold turkey from about a pot and a half a day, if you slowly taper down it would probably have less impact.  The withdrawal from the drug was uncomfortable but tolerable.  I had very bad headaches for about three or four days, and generally felt crappy/tired for another three or four.  Two weeks afterwards I was 100% normal.

Josiecat22222

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2022, 08:05:15 AM »
I go through phases where it is hard to go to sleep or stay asleep (which are actually categorized differently as sleep disorders).  Aside from the steps listed by @GuitarStv , I have found listening to a relatively boring audiobook helps me get to sleep.  I love to read, but the light keeps me up (and DH!!!) but I slip in headphones and keep my eyes closed and find this works pretty well!
Have you tried blue-blocking glasses?  About $15 for a pack of 12 on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07K4XGXVL/

Our brains have blue light detectors to sense daytime, which is what most screens produce in excess.  Blocking that can make a big difference in sleepiness.  There's also amber book lights which don't produce blue light.  I prefer to avoid the "3 mode" lights and stick to a light that only produces amber (non-blue) light.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZVKFQLR/

I haven't tried those glasses, but I am aware of them (and I appreciate the link!).  I actually prefer to read a physical book with a night light, but DH is a VERY light sensitive sleeper and I REALLY like being married....soooooo....it's audiobooks for me.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2022, 08:11:01 AM »
DH is a VERY light sensitive sleeper and I REALLY like being married....soooooo....

Ah, that reminds me . . .

If you can swing it, it's really worth having a second place to sleep set up.  When I'm up all hours of the night I don't want to be disturbing my wife, or if I'm having a difficult time getting to sleep I don't want her to be disturbing me when I finally nod off.

We have a spare bedroom that I'll use on and off during the year for this reason.

Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2022, 09:32:06 AM »
What is everyone doing about congestion? That is my biggest problem.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2022, 04:40:08 PM »
DH is a VERY light sensitive sleeper and I REALLY like being married....soooooo....
Ah, that reminds me . . .

If you can swing it, it's really worth having a second place to sleep set up.  When I'm up all hours of the night I don't want to be disturbing my wife, or if I'm having a difficult time getting to sleep I don't want her to be disturbing me when I finally nod off.

We have a spare bedroom that I'll use on and off during the year for this reason.
That reminder reminds me (reminder squared?): I believe "Why We Sleep" mentions that the bed should only be used when you and your wife are sleeping or ... well, you can guess the other activity.

Reading and doing other stuff in bed can get your brain to associate being awake with being in bed.  If you break that association and read somewhere else, you can create a stronger link to "in bed means sleep".  May sound odd, but our brains are really adaptable and like making associations - try reading "Why We Sleep" (at your local library?), and see if separating bed from reading area helps.

PDXTabs

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2022, 04:45:25 PM »
Okay if our family's dog post here? She's waking up awfully early lately.

OMG. Recently I've had a hard time falling asleep combined with my dog deciding that she would really like to wake me up earlier than we are used to. I think it is because we just moved in with roommates and she wants to see who is up and about.

PDXTabs

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2022, 04:51:51 PM »
What is everyone doing about congestion? That is my biggest problem.

My doctor wrote me a prescription for Azelastine and told me to take it with Fluticasone (OTC) because it is cheaper that way than the RX with both in them. I also have a Montelukast prescription but if you don't have a history of asthma they might not want to write for it. It does work on hay-fever but also has a risk of suicidality. It was almost OTC but the FDA thought that it might confuse people because it isn't a fast acting inhaler. I'm not a doctor and that's not medical advice.

I am also sensitive to certain foods/beverages WRT congestion. The worst possible thing I could do would be to eat a bunch of salsa and wash it down with mead. YMMV

BlueHouse

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2022, 06:15:30 PM »
I've never felt I had a major sleep problem, even though I wake up multiple times per night, and have done so for over 30 years.  I can almost always go right back to sleep, so it's never bothered me much. 

BUT.. I'm currently on vacation and have never had better sleep.  I think it's the A/C.  At home, I like to crank up the A/C and stay under the covers with a ceiling fan on.  I get hot and cold, so keeping cold with covers helps there.  But here, the house is kept pretty warm -- 78 degrees!  At home, this would not be possible because I get too hot.  But here, I'm just under a sheet and a very light, very open weave blanket.  The difference I'm seeing is that the vents here are in the floor instead of the ceiling.  So the air is never blowing directly on me.  I think that's all the difference.  I may try some adjustments when I get home to see if I can replicate this. 

tooqk4u22

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2022, 07:23:49 PM »
Insomniac here, sometimes I wonder if it's a blessing or a curse...guess it depends on how you function.   

On good nights I wake up pretty frequently, my worst stretches would go about two weeks and always ended with me getting sick, fortunately that hasn't happened in awhile.   I can go about 2 days without feeling it (used to be 3-4days).

I am also a person that can take a 5-10 minute nap and feel 100% recharged but if ibdonit to late in the day or not when I am completely exhausted it will ruin any chance of sleeping that night.  DW and family does 2 hour naps....only time I have done that is when I am sick.

I have tried cutting out alcohol, caffeine and hard exercise but the brain doesn't shut off.  In reality, I prefer a few drinks so at least I get a buzz and fall asleep easier and a bit longer than without. 

I am also cursed with being highly sensitive to light (think just that little blink from phone), sound (hum of a computer fan from across the room let alone my kids and pets haha),

One of my kids came down the other day and I was like you slept 12 hours....which I get easily too but it happens over 3 days.  DW was telling them about sneaking out as a kid (Why?) and their response was "Even if I wanted too dad is always up and hears everything"


Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2022, 08:54:18 AM »
What is everyone doing about congestion? That is my biggest problem.

My doctor wrote me a prescription for Azelastine and told me to take it with Fluticasone (OTC) because it is cheaper that way than the RX with both in them. I also have a Montelukast prescription but if you don't have a history of asthma they might not want to write for it. It does work on hay-fever but also has a risk of suicidality. It was almost OTC but the FDA thought that it might confuse people because it isn't a fast acting inhaler. I'm not a doctor and that's not medical advice.

I am also sensitive to certain foods/beverages WRT congestion. The worst possible thing I could do would be to eat a bunch of salsa and wash it down with mead. YMMV

Thank you. Yes, am noticing what I eat may be related to how congested I get at night. Haven't connected the dots yet. Also, finishing all eating earlier seems to help too. I've been focusing on losing weight and sort of fell off the wagon for a few days. The good eating habits seem to be helping my sleep congestion as well.

Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2022, 08:59:35 AM »
Habits may affect your sleep I suppose. Both our kids were bed wetters (b/c they slept so soundly) growing up so for years we'd get up a couple times per night. DW once, and myself once.

Guess what - a decade plus later - I still wake up +/- 30 minutes around 3AM automatically.

Wondering if those sort of sleep habits are affecting any of the troubled sleepers here.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2022, 01:50:56 PM »
I am also cursed with being highly sensitive to light (think just that little blink from phone), sound (hum of a computer fan from across the room let alone my kids and pets haha),
Have you tried a "white noise machine"?  Can also provide other sounds like running water or fans, which can mask out smaller noises.  Black out curtains may be helpful, too.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WPCXL5H/


One of my kids came down the other day and I was like you slept 12 hours....which I get easily too but it happens over 3 days.  DW was telling them about sneaking out as a kid (Why?) and their response was "Even if I wanted too dad is always up and hears everything"
People tend to be night owls or morning people - which I suspect is tied to evolution.  Maybe in prehistoric times, it was a good idea to have some people keeping watch late at night and early in the morning.  With this little theory of mine, insomniacs would be the backup defense - waking up too easily and warning others.

Or in modern times, spotting sneaky kids.  :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2022, 04:21:29 PM »
Wondering if those sort of sleep habits are affecting any of the troubled sleepers here.

I slept great through elementary school, high school, and university (in university I was known for being able to sleep through anything actually, and wasn't sensitive to light or noise at all).  I started having some problems sleeping in my early working life (needed quiet and no light at all), but it was mostly manageable.  In university and high school I usually tried to schedule my classes so that there wasn't anything before 11 in the morning.  I've always been a night person, and that was never very compatible with regular office working hours which might have exacerbated the problem.

When my son was born, he was a very poor sleeping baby  . . . as in he would wake up screaming 5-7 nights a week.  This stayed pretty bad for a long time.  He wasn't making it through the night on a regular basis without waking everyone else up in the house until he was well into his forth year.  My sleep spiraled out of control very badly during that time and never really recovered.

Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2022, 10:53:12 AM »
I hope eventually you all find the magic key to enough quality sleep.

I slept in the basement tv room with our skittish dog last night b/c fireworks. 3AM bathroom break for both of us. It was "safe" our dog agreed. I think she slept better than she has in days with her head or paw on my hand part of the night.

I, on the otherhand, slept only so-so despite the YouTube white noise audio (projector off). Tonight will hopefully be better in the bed.

It was worth it.


big_owl

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2022, 01:36:23 PM »
Most insomnia, if not caused by something like apnea, boils down to an anxiety or depressive disorder.  I developed my insomnia 4yrs ago from such, and it was utterly devastating.  Like life changing PTSD shit.  It destroyed my life and left me a shell of myself.  It got so bad I would have an anxiety attack every time I laid down in bed or even laid back on the couch. 

FF to now and it's 90% in remission.  The answer was to solve the root anxiety and depressive problems.  My life is much better. 

ETA, I'm talking real chronic insomnia here, not the sort of stuff where you're a night owl or have a rough night every couple weeks.  That's not insomnia. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 02:24:53 PM by big_owl »

Just Joe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2022, 08:08:52 AM »
What was the solution - counseling or medication or time passing? Thanks.

StarBright

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2022, 09:05:37 AM »
Wondering if those sort of sleep habits are affecting any of the troubled sleepers here.

 .. . .

When my son was born, he was a very poor sleeping baby  . . . as in he would wake up screaming 5-7 nights a week.  This stayed pretty bad for a long time.  He wasn't making it through the night on a regular basis without waking everyone else up in the house until he was well into his forth year.  My sleep spiraled out of control very badly during that time and never really recovered.

I have always been a night owl, but kids were also what tipped me into getting chronically bad sleep. Both of mine woke up 6-10 a night for the first year or so of their lives and didn't sleep through the night regularly until they were about 5 (and still wake up 1-2 nights a week in elementary school). I was still up 3-5 times a night when the kids were two and four.

Because I don't fall asleep easily I was getting 2-3 hours a night total for years (including a nap during my lunch break). 

I've gotten to where I can get about 6 hours now with perfect sleep hygiene, 8 hours if my parents visit and are willing to get up with the kids in the AM.

But kids schedules, work schedules and being a natural night owl still keep me from getting good sleep, and my kids are 8 and 10 now. It's a good thing we the littles so much because they are NOT compatible with a healthy and well rested life:)


GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2022, 09:36:15 AM »
It's a good thing we ____ the littles so much

Your sleep deprived brain wouldn't let you type 'love', but your good nature wouldn't let you type 'hate'.  Which I think is a good short summary of what being a parent is like.  :P

StarBright

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2022, 09:42:13 AM »
It's a good thing we ____ the littles so much

Your sleep deprived brain wouldn't let you type 'love', but your good nature wouldn't let you type 'hate'.  Which I think is a good short summary of what being a parent is like.  :P

well that is embarrassing :) But yeah :)

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2022, 10:09:53 AM »
Most insomnia, if not caused by something like apnea, boils down to an anxiety or depressive disorder.  I developed my insomnia 4yrs ago from such, and it was utterly devastating.  Like life changing PTSD shit.  It destroyed my life and left me a shell of myself.  It got so bad I would have an anxiety attack every time I laid down in bed or even laid back on the couch. 

FF to now and it's 90% in remission.  The answer was to solve the root anxiety and depressive problems.  My life is much better. 

ETA, I'm talking real chronic insomnia here, not the sort of stuff where you're a night owl or have a rough night every couple weeks.  That's not insomnia.




I've been through similar times, but not as intense as you've described.  My mind would race & keep me up all night.  I'd toss & turn in bed, so it was the mental & the physical working together keeping me awake for hours & hours.  I eventually learned to "control my thoughts", and instead of my mind racing in chaos I learned to entertain myself into creative, comforting thoughts.  Instead of frantically trying to calm racing mind, I'd steer my thoughts into a creative design exercise that was enjoyable and soothing, and too detailed to ever fully complete.  So, I'd eventually dose off to sleep in a peaceful frame of mind.  As time went, I learned to get lost in pleasant thoughts quicker and quicker.


A few years later I found myself in a very stressful situation.  I'd become my father's caregiver, and instead of helping me him for a few months until we found a permanent solution, I became the permanent solution.  It wasn't my intention, but as his health conditions worsened it became more difficult for me to leave.  I found myself in the most stressful mindset that I'd even encountered.  It seemed that every emotion that the mind could experience was raging through my head all at the same time.  At times it felt like I was on the edge of nervous breakdown, but at the same time it also felt almost superhuman.  It was like a PhD level psychology program, with all the courses of each emotion being studied & examined at the same time.  I had no idea that so many emotions could exist simultaneously.  It was a fascinating experience.
In my earlier years this level of stress would have likely resulted in insomnia.  Instead, I found that at night my mind chose interesting visual exercises to explore and enjoy.  I'd imagine shapes in my mind, similar to cloud gazing.  I would follow whatever shape happened to appear in my mind, and instead of watching it flow along I'd take control of it.  I learned to reverse the forms that were emerging, I learned to choose their colors & patterns, and I learned to direct the forms as they morphed into something else.  It was fascinating, but required quite a bit of focus to achieve.  The amount of focus was tiring and I don't remember any of these visions lasting more than an hour, but time really didn't feel relevant as I explored my visions.  It was sort of an "out-of-body" or drug-like experience.
My father passed away a few years ago, and the stress of it all is now long gone.  I've lost most of the ability to chase & manipulate the visions in my head, but the fond memories of it often dance through my head as I close my eyes for the night. 
I've shared this in hopes that it may be of help to others, perhaps with insomnia or other stressful emotions that they're experiencing "at the moment".  That's something that I've learned is important to remember and embrace, everything is "in the moment" and life continues to evolve.  That's an important "tool" for getting through whatever you happen to be facing today, or tonight.


Peace & sweet dreams. 

big_owl

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2022, 01:05:41 PM »
What was the solution - counseling or medication or time passing? Thanks.

Yes.   All of the above.  One of the primary reasons I FIREd at the beginning of the year was because of the insomnia (a lot of my anxiety was related to my manager).  I tried a ton of medications and everything just made the anxiety worse until I finally found buspirone, which is ironic because it's generally scoffed at as less effective than regular old ADs, and the only side effect I have is increased libido.  I've done talk therapy for a couple years now but really don't find it all that helpful.  I also had a few hip surgeries to correct chronic hip/back pain which I had for several years and was also contributing to my anxiety and depression.  It's been a journey.   

utaca

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2022, 01:46:15 PM »

Weed
- I'm hesitant to recommend drugs, as I believe that they're a last resort kind of thing that people often reach for first rather than doing the other (usually more beneficial) stuff first.  But for me, when my sleeping becomes disrupted a 30 mg CBD / 1 mg THC tincture taken sublingually an hour before bedtime very reliably provides me with a good night's sleep.  After a couple nights sleeping well then I get back in the groove and don't need it any more.


Weed has been a life-changer for me. I've practiced good sleep hygiene, exercised daily and regularly meditated for years but the stress and anxiety continued. With a regular, low dose of weed in the evening, I sleep better, drink less and have far less anxiety. My work productivity and focus have improved and I'm a better spouse/parent/friend/colleague (likely due to lower stress rather than a direct result of cannabis consumption). Also, relevant to the Mustachian thing, weed is way cheaper than booze (at least where I live). Last but not least - getting a little high is pretty good fun!

With legal weed, it's easy to find a product and dose that work (i.e. not getting too high, avoiding paranoia, couch-lock or other unpleasant side-effects). Being able to consume oils/edibles/beverages/etc rather than smoking is a major benefit of legalization.

I too am hesitant to recommend drugs, especially for those who may be prone to abuse. However, pharmaceuticals have side-effects and especially benzos can be quite dangerous. I'd encourage folks struggling with mental health issues and insomnia to at least consider whether weed might help them.

Tyson

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2022, 10:43:24 PM »
I developed very bad insomnia after my heart attack.  Somehow I became convinced that I was going to have a 2nd heart attack while I was sleeping and that it would kill me.  So, sleep became my enemy.  Sleep became death. 

I also knew that poor sleep actually leads to a higher fatality rate for those with heart disease.  So the stress just multiplied and everything went to shit.

For a while, alcohol helped, because it dialed everything down and let me have a bit of respite.  But you can probably guess how that ended up. 

It took a long time for me to get my sleep dialed back in.  I have a few things that help:

1. A blue light filter on all devices
2. All lights in the house are 'warm'
3. Keep it cold at night
4. A combo of blinds plus roman shades on the bedoom windows
5. Only 1 cup of coffee per day and never past noon
6. Exercise every day (walking and/or pilates)
7. Supplement with Vitamin D, K2 and Magnesium  (they seem to work better when taken together).

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2022, 07:09:14 AM »
Alcohol can sort of help you get to sleep, but I find that the sleep you get after drinking is pretty bad quality.  I always end up waking up feeling bleh after having drinks the night before.

Tyson

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2022, 08:24:38 AM »
Alcohol can sort of help you get to sleep, but I find that the sleep you get after drinking is pretty bad quality.  I always end up waking up feeling bleh after having drinks the night before.

That was exactly my experience, too. 

I also went from "moderate social drinker" to "full blown alcoholic" in record time. 

big_owl

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2022, 06:16:39 PM »
Alcohol can sort of help you get to sleep, but I find that the sleep you get after drinking is pretty bad quality.  I always end up waking up feeling bleh after having drinks the night before.

That was exactly my experience, too. 

I also went from "moderate social drinker" to "full blown alcoholic" in record time.

I think pretty much every chronic insomniac becomes a budding alcoholic at some point.  I've been there.  Combined with antidepressants it's a potentially embarrassing combo.  My life low point was peeing in the corner of my bathroom on the floor one night and not remembering any of it.  And then the final wakeup call was getting my triglycerides tested and being twice the normal value, despite being an extremely active and healthy individual otherwise.  That's when I finally got my shit together.  It's hard to write that out but it's true. 

Dicey

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2022, 04:23:34 AM »
Damn it, after a couple of good weeks, it's 3am and I can't sleep. Where the hell is everybody? Sleeping well, I hope.

Metalcat

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2022, 05:29:26 AM »
Alcohol can sort of help you get to sleep, but I find that the sleep you get after drinking is pretty bad quality.  I always end up waking up feeling bleh after having drinks the night before.

That was exactly my experience, too. 

I also went from "moderate social drinker" to "full blown alcoholic" in record time.

I think pretty much every chronic insomniac becomes a budding alcoholic at some point.  I've been there.  Combined with antidepressants it's a potentially embarrassing combo.  My life low point was peeing in the corner of my bathroom on the floor one night and not remembering any of it.  And then the final wakeup call was getting my triglycerides tested and being twice the normal value, despite being an extremely active and healthy individual otherwise.  That's when I finally got my shit together.  It's hard to write that out but it's true.

I never got to this point, but that's likely only because my body could never handle much alcohol. I did become totally dependent on wine to fall asleep though.

I haven't had alcohol for a few years, and it's shocking how much more rested I am now, even with the insomnia.

My insomnia is neurological, so there's literally nothing I can do about it when it happens. I just roll with it. Even with insomnia, I'll be far more rested and functional the next day compared to if I drank.

Alcohol induced sleep isn't really reparative, so it's almost like fake sleep. But it's so common for people to depend on it to get to sleep.

That said, what's very interesting in the sleep science/sleep medicine world, which is one of my areas of expertise, is that contrary to how the science is reported, we don't actually have any idea how much sleep people need, because we can never separate stress out of the equation.

Increasingly, science is starting to suggest that hours of sleep don't actually matter, and that it's not more sleep, but less stress that people need. The concept of a sleep debt is now being understood as a stress debt.

GuitarStv

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2022, 07:05:07 AM »
Damn it, after a couple of good weeks, it's 3am and I can't sleep. Where the hell is everybody? Sleeping well, I hope.

No screens when I'm up all night.  I go to the basement and play guitar through headphones then re-try sleeping after a few hours.  Makes me feel better to be doing something productive rather than just wasting time wishing I wasn't awake.  :P

ysette9

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2022, 07:21:02 AM »
My sleep struggles are of a different sort, but it feels like I have a support group here all the same.

On my own I go through periods of multiple months were I sleep pretty well and then periods where I really struggle. Mainly I wake up at night. A good night is waking up twice. A bad night is waking up every hour or two. The main problem is I have these three beastly little people who CONSTANTLY wake me up. I have been programmed to wake at the slightest cry and I can't seem to shake that no matter what. If anyone is at all sick or needs to pee or is having an off night, then I get woken up. For them, being sick means they sleep like shit and wake to cry frequently, so we are a terrible combination at night, me and my kiddos.

At the current moment the littlest is sick, so he wakes and cries a bunch at night. We are suffering through this god-awful heat wave as well, so I can't fall asleep until late and then don't sleep all that well anyway. I like quiet and dark and rather cool air under a big, warm comforter. That totally doesn't work in the summer.

I quit caffeine out of desperation when my oldest was a baby. It didn't help me sleep measurably because the baby had destroyed it to smithereens, but it is nice not to be dependent on it. I do best when I go to bed early at a consistent time, avoid screens at night, no caffeine, and have a dark and cool room. But all of that is thrown out the window if I get woken up by the kids.

SIGH

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2022, 08:28:50 AM »
My sleep struggles are of a different sort, but it feels like I have a support group here all the same.

On my own I go through periods of multiple months were I sleep pretty well and then periods where I really struggle. Mainly I wake up at night. A good night is waking up twice. A bad night is waking up every hour or two. The main problem is I have these three beastly little people who CONSTANTLY wake me up. I have been programmed to wake at the slightest cry and I can't seem to shake that no matter what. If anyone is at all sick or needs to pee or is having an off night, then I get woken up. For them, being sick means they sleep like shit and wake to cry frequently, so we are a terrible combination at night, me and my kiddos.

At the current moment the littlest is sick, so he wakes and cries a bunch at night. We are suffering through this god-awful heat wave as well, so I can't fall asleep until late and then don't sleep all that well anyway. I like quiet and dark and rather cool air under a big, warm comforter. That totally doesn't work in the summer.

I quit caffeine out of desperation when my oldest was a baby. It didn't help me sleep measurably because the baby had destroyed it to smithereens, but it is nice not to be dependent on it. I do best when I go to bed early at a consistent time, avoid screens at night, no caffeine, and have a dark and cool room. But all of that is thrown out the window if I get woken up by the kids.

SIGH






I feel for you.  Not much you can do when needy ones wake you multiple times through the night, and even worse when it's hot.


If you're the mentally creative type you could create a "dream self", one that exists in a calm quiet cool future that gets to sleep as much as she likes.  She lives in the back corner of your mind, all rested and refreshed, peaceful, and happy.  But the "present you" doesn't really envy her because you realize her rested peaceful life comes with a bit of loneliness.  Her happy memories can't exist without the tough times you're going through now.  Maybe you can share a smile with each other while you're trying to doze off, until the next wake up call. 


It's not really "sleep", but it's sort of like the dreaming part of it. 

Dee18

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2022, 02:09:41 PM »
I fall asleep okay but often wake at 3, 4, or 5 a.m. and have trouble getting back to sleep.  I have had success with the Headspace app, listening to a "sleepiest" story read by Simon.  It keeps my mind from thinking about things just enough that I fall back asleep. If I start to read or get up at all, I cannot fall back asleep until 2 or 3 hours later, then missing the early morning/best hiking weather.

Abe

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2022, 10:45:21 PM »
I've struggled with sleeping most of my life, and being on call every other day for a year blew whatever schedule I had right up. After trying all the usual things (turn off screens, avoid caffeine, avoid alcohol, don't toss about in bed if you can't sleep, avoid temperature extremes), I basically resigned myself to being an insomniac. Oddly, I found listening to an audiobook will knock me out about half the time. I can't explain it, but thought it's worth sharing. I have to sleep in a separate bedroom from my spouse for this to work, but we both get more sleep now.

Metalcat

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2022, 05:40:24 AM »
I've struggled with sleeping most of my life, and being on call every other day for a year blew whatever schedule I had right up. After trying all the usual things (turn off screens, avoid caffeine, avoid alcohol, don't toss about in bed if you can't sleep, avoid temperature extremes), I basically resigned myself to being an insomniac. Oddly, I found listening to an audiobook will knock me out about half the time. I can't explain it, but thought it's worth sharing. I have to sleep in a separate bedroom from my spouse for this to work, but we both get more sleep now.

Buy some sleeping headphones.
https://www.amazon.ca/Sleep-Headphones-Perytong-Ultra-Thin-Meditation/dp/B07SHBQY7Z/ref=asc_df_B07SHBQY7Z/?tag=googlemobshop-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=419779432259&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4715222271338674882&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000004&hvtargid=pla-782477182467&psc=1

getsorted

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2022, 07:47:19 AM »
I fall asleep easily-- in fact, by 8 or 9, I'm exhausted and can barely stay awake-- but I go through long periods where I wake up at 2 or 3 a.m. and can't go back to sleep for a couple of hours. My doctor prescribed trazodone but it only worked for a couple of weeks. I wish I knew what worked. I drink oceans of coffee until about 4 pm, but I don't know if that is causing me to wake at 2 after falling asleep at 9. I rarely drink (I think my last drink was on New Year's).

According to my FitBit, I'm awake quite a lot even when I don't remember it the next day, and my sleep score rarely rises above "fair." It's frustrating.

A word on congestion: foods high in histamine, or that cause your body to release histamine, can cause congestion. There are a lot more than you would think and some tend to affect people more than others. I have histamine-triggered migraines-- a single beer or glass of wine (even white wine) can give me a migraine within minutes, and also cause congestion (clear alcohols, curiously, cause me no trouble). But ripened foods or fermented foods can also be high in histamine-- I can induce a migraine by eating two ripe bananas or drinking kombucha. Tomatoes can be a problem if I eat too many (which is awful, because I fucking love tomatoes).

Other foods have mild anti-histamine effects (most green leafy vegetables except spinach, for example).

Anyway, it's worth looking into if you have chronic congestion waking you up. My kid is one of those allergic-to-everything kids and I find keeping an eye on his histamine intake makes a big difference.

ysette9

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2022, 12:40:21 PM »
My sleep struggles are of a different sort, but it feels like I have a support group here all the same.

On my own I go through periods of multiple months were I sleep pretty well and then periods where I really struggle. Mainly I wake up at night. A good night is waking up twice. A bad night is waking up every hour or two. The main problem is I have these three beastly little people who CONSTANTLY wake me up. I have been programmed to wake at the slightest cry and I can't seem to shake that no matter what. If anyone is at all sick or needs to pee or is having an off night, then I get woken up. For them, being sick means they sleep like shit and wake to cry frequently, so we are a terrible combination at night, me and my kiddos.

At the current moment the littlest is sick, so he wakes and cries a bunch at night. We are suffering through this god-awful heat wave as well, so I can't fall asleep until late and then don't sleep all that well anyway. I like quiet and dark and rather cool air under a big, warm comforter. That totally doesn't work in the summer.

I quit caffeine out of desperation when my oldest was a baby. It didn't help me sleep measurably because the baby had destroyed it to smithereens, but it is nice not to be dependent on it. I do best when I go to bed early at a consistent time, avoid screens at night, no caffeine, and have a dark and cool room. But all of that is thrown out the window if I get woken up by the kids.

SIGH






I feel for you.  Not much you can do when needy ones wake you multiple times through the night, and even worse when it's hot.


If you're the mentally creative type you could create a "dream self", one that exists in a calm quiet cool future that gets to sleep as much as she likes.  She lives in the back corner of your mind, all rested and refreshed, peaceful, and happy.  But the "present you" doesn't really envy her because you realize her rested peaceful life comes with a bit of loneliness.  Her happy memories can't exist without the tough times you're going through now.  Maybe you can share a smile with each other while you're trying to doze off, until the next wake up call. 


It's not really "sleep", but it's sort of like the dreaming part of it.
This makes me think about how many years ago I was an exchange student. I spent a year feeling desperately lonely and struggled to fill my days after school got out. I know the memories are there of feeling lonely and somewhat bored, but I am so overstimulated from being interrupted all the time that I can’t actually remember what those feelings felt like. It seems like what I want most in life is to be left alone by myself for weeks on end.

iluvzbeach

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Re: Where are my insomniacs at?
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2022, 07:31:47 PM »
I've struggled with sleeping most of my life, and being on call every other day for a year blew whatever schedule I had right up. After trying all the usual things (turn off screens, avoid caffeine, avoid alcohol, don't toss about in bed if you can't sleep, avoid temperature extremes), I basically resigned myself to being an insomniac. Oddly, I found listening to an audiobook will knock me out about half the time. I can't explain it, but thought it's worth sharing. I have to sleep in a separate bedroom from my spouse for this to work, but we both get more sleep now.

Buy some sleeping headphones.
https://www.amazon.ca/Sleep-Headphones-Perytong-Ultra-Thin-Meditation/dp/B07SHBQY7Z/ref=asc_df_B07SHBQY7Z/?tag=googlemobshop-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=419779432259&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4715222271338674882&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000004&hvtargid=pla-782477182467&psc=1

Malcat, those headphones look awesome. Thanks for sharing the link. I’ve ordered some.