Author Topic: The homeless situation  (Read 5628 times)

Johnez

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The homeless situation
« on: October 19, 2018, 10:05:47 PM »
I've noticed a few posters have mentioned this in threads where location is brought up and I was curious of places around the US (or outside it even since this forum is global). I live in Orange County all my life and have to say I've never seen anything like it. Right now parks around me are campgrounds in the day and everywhere I go seems like tents popping up. Cops usually run the homeless out, but the problem just shifts elsewhere. Last year before they got cleared out there was a river bed with dozens upon dozens of tents, as far as the eye could see. Turned out 700 homeless lived along a stretch, who all got temporary housing in motels that has since run out. Well, since they were cleared out they're everywhere now, parks, freeways, streets, etc. There are RVs, trucks, vans everywhere that Si for days beside the ones on the streets.

I have to say as a person who wants safe streets and parks, I'm pretty concerned for my neighborhood and my family's safety. As a person with empathy for those down on their luck, I feel for them. I could end up there one day. As a voting citizen, it bothers me that the city and county have done so little in the face of a growing problem. It also bothers me that other voting neighbors stymie any plan to put in low cost subsidized housing for fear of drugs and homeless where they live. I mean where do they expect the homeless to live, a jail cell? They're going to be in their neighborhood regardless, on the street or in a cheap dorm-pick one.

Anyway, not sure how widespread the issue is, but it feels like we're in denial and the other shoe is going to drop as far as our economy is concerned. In this part of the US, quite a noticeable portion of people are sinking, very close to sinking, or have completely sunk into deep poverty.

marble_faun

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 11:40:08 PM »
A portion of the homelessness problem is related to the opioid epidemic. 

This article about drug addiction and homelessness in one Philadelphia neighborhood was just devastating: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/magazine/kensington-heroin-opioid-philadelphia.html

I feel a deep sense of despair about the whole thing. 

In my own neighborhood park, a public art installation has become a place for people to sell and use drugs. I have seen money and baggies of a white powdery substance changing hands while out walking my dog. People sleep on the grass, zonked out in the middle of the day. To me it's just so incredibly sad, a place of brokenness.

A few years ago it wasn't like this at all.  A treatment clinic for opioid addiction opened nearby right around the time I started to notice the problem.  There has been a fair amount of NIMBYism about the clinic, but... if our neighborhood shoos the people out, they'll just go to another park somewhere else. Shifting the location is not a solution.

Beyond the drug issue, our society is becoming more oligarchical.  The expansion of homeless camps in cities (and rural areas) across the US is just the most visible manifestation of the growing gulf between rich and poor. I do feel a sense of foreboding for our society if we keep going in this direction.  It's a massive, slow-moving tragedy that I wish we could find the will to solve.

Morning Glory

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 05:14:06 AM »
Not all homeless people are drug addicts, although certainly we should do something as a society to help all homeless people whether they are drug addicts or not. (Or better yet, to prevent people from becoming drug addicts). There is a small but growing segment of working people and families who are homeless for whatever reason, mainly that rents are rising faster than wages in many cities, and public housing hasn't grown to accommodate increasing populations. Many other people are couch surfing and one step away from actual homelessness. Someone posted a NYT article about it fairly recently.

I have a relative who was evicted from public housing for failing too many inspections, after living there for 17 years. She is not a drug addict, just a bit lazy with a little hoarding behavior, and also a mild disability that prevents her from doing many higher paying jobs. She was working a full time minimum wage job at the time and could not find another place that she could afford, so she and three of her kids came to live with us for a while (after couch surfing for a couple weeks with friends and running out of options). She had no problem finding a job in our area but rent is more expensive and she has the eviction on her record plus poor credit. Her 19 year old daughter's name was also on the lease at the housing, so she now also has the eviction on her record with absolutely no credit record.

Where I live there is a lot of competition for scarce affordable housing, so landlords can afford to take only people with good credit and rental history.  TLDR it took five months for her to actually sign a lease and move out of my house (she is actually still here but moving out on the 1st). If we had not been able to take them in the kids probably would have ended up in foster care.

Many shelters and cheap housing options are not able to take families with children (my city has a limit of two people per bedroom in rental houses, for example). The free market here keeps  churning out more luxury apartment buildings and mcmansions. The government may need to start building projects again, so that everyone has shelter. People can cry Nimby but I saw one study (help me out here, I can't remember where) that housing the homeless pays for itself in decreased emergency room use alone.


chasesfish

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 05:47:55 AM »
Have you considered volunteering or serving on the board of a local emergency services not for profit?

My perception changed dramatically once I got more involved.  It was something that was pushed for me to do by my employer and I've found it rewarding.

I say "emergency services" because poverty is an interesting cycle, plenty of people break out of it but there are also working class people who fall down into the trap.  I have a passion for the emergency services side of this because it helps stop people from falling down.  Emergency housing/food/utility assistance helps people fill the gap between loosing their job/medical and getting some benefits so they can stay in their house/apartment and not end up in the homeless camp.

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 08:21:37 AM »
Those services are great but pretty much non-existent in the rural area where my SIL was living. I was also taken aback by lack of support for families who are willing to take in their homeless relative. For example, my SIL could not qualify for food assistance while living at my house because there was a requirement that she have a separate kitchen. This meant that I was feeding an extra four people (I probably could have asked the food bank if I really needed to but I would rather just consider this my charitable contribution for the year)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 08:24:50 AM by MrsWolfeRN »

Dave1442397

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2018, 09:39:09 AM »
I remember back in the '80s in Ireland my friend's mother was given a council house by the government. It was in a really nice community of small 3-bedroom houses. The government was thinking ahead. Knowing that many council houses were let deteriorate, they came up with a new idea - charge the tenants minimal rent, but with the option of buying the house  for a nominal sum after so many years of occupation, providing they kept up with maintenance.

Maintenance was minimal, as most houses require zero external maintenance (apart from yard work). Roofs are tiled, so unless storm damaged, they're good for a long time. My parents' roof hasn't been touched, and the house was built in 1968.

Maybe they should try a rent-to-own scheme here.

maizefolk

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2018, 09:58:33 AM »
I don't see (visible) homeless out here, but every time I go to California I feel like like the (visible) homeless population has increased. I don't know if that's a real trend or just that I notice them more now that I'm not seeing it every day.

Agreed that there are clearly a lot of people couch surfing or doubling up in apartments.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2018, 10:11:41 AM »
Those services are great but pretty much non-existent in the rural area where my SIL was living.

I live in a rural, sparsely populated, California county. 

For ~ 2 years  the homeless were visible in town.

They were congregating in the woods behind the town's supermarket.

And in a small park across the street from it.

I don't see them anymore.

I heard a shelter was built for them so I guess that's where they are now.

Laserjet3051

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2018, 12:16:35 PM »
I've noticed a few posters have mentioned this in threads where location is brought up and I was curious of places around the US (or outside it even since this forum is global). I live in Orange County all my life and have to say I've never seen anything like it. Right now parks around me are campgrounds in the day and everywhere I go seems like tents popping up. Cops usually run the homeless out, but the problem just shifts elsewhere. Last year before they got cleared out there was a river bed with dozens upon dozens of tents, as far as the eye could see. Turned out 700 homeless lived along a stretch, who all got temporary housing in motels that has since run out. Well, since they were cleared out they're everywhere now, parks, freeways, streets, etc. There are RVs, trucks, vans everywhere that Si for days beside the ones on the streets.

I have to say as a person who wants safe streets and parks, I'm pretty concerned for my neighborhood and my family's safety. As a person with empathy for those down on their luck, I feel for them. I could end up there one day. As a voting citizen, it bothers me that the city and county have done so little in the face of a growing problem. It also bothers me that other voting neighbors stymie any plan to put in low cost subsidized housing for fear of drugs and homeless where they live. I mean where do they expect the homeless to live, a jail cell? They're going to be in their neighborhood regardless, on the street or in a cheap dorm-pick one.

Anyway, not sure how widespread the issue is, but it feels like we're in denial and the other shoe is going to drop as far as our economy is concerned. In this part of the US, quite a noticeable portion of people are sinking, very close to sinking, or have completely sunk into deep poverty.

Totally agree with you on OC. However, lets be clear here, its north OC, not south OC where this problem is exploding, with the dividing line running from Newport east through Irvine.  Homeless encampment size explosion is exacerbated here in CA (socal/ bay area) as housing costs here are rising really fast compared to income/median US housing cost. YOY increases in CA housing rent are astronomical and pushing people into the streets. In socal/norcal, housing stock supply limitation is a key driver. Local governments are NOT issuing adequate building permits to developers, constraining supply, driving up $, and pushing folks either out of the state or into the streets. Of course, NIMBYism, as you point out also is limiting the creation of low income tracts for these folks.

Housing price (rental costs) will not push our family into the streets, but it is pushing us OUT of state.

Abe

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2018, 02:43:42 PM »
A recent study estimated that a quarter of the US homeless population is in California, mostly because people with lower incomes can't afford rent and cities in this state are notoriously bad at urban planning or approving high-density housing. I live in Santa Monica currently, and the city found that about half the homeless here were addicted to drugs or were mentally ill. The other half were not, and just couldn't afford to live near their work, so had to camp out in the parks or their cars. Most of them were employed full time! 

Johnez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2018, 03:20:56 PM »
^I read an article earlier this year about a homeless woman who died in her car. She worked at Disneyland, a hotel I think, and was not a typical homeless looking person. Few people can tell the working homeless from the average worker. It was quite sad, but apparently it's not uncommon.

There's a ballot initiative to raise minimum wage, but IMO that does nothing to solve the problems here. $15 an hour is not going to go far, and the housing crisis remains. I have to start over again here as I just lost my job. $26 an hour with a family barely got me by. $15 an hour won't even cover rent. I saved my OT pay and will scrape until I pick up a decent job (hopefully!) but for those living on the edge, homelessness is perilously close by.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 03:22:38 PM by Johnez »

Loretta

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2018, 03:29:48 PM »
I see a large number of homeless in the DC suburbs specifically the  northern VA suburbs.  All ages, races, etc. many at major intersections where drivers will give them cash.  Library will have multiple homeless hanging out using the computers and facilities. 

maizefolk

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2018, 03:30:25 PM »
There's a ballot initiative to raise minimum wage, but IMO that does nothing to solve the problems here. $15 an hour is not going to go far, and the housing crisis remains. I have to start over again here as I just lost my job. $26 an hour with a family barely got me by. $15 an hour won't even cover rent. I saved my OT pay, but for those living on the edge, homelessness is perilously close by.

Yeah, raising to minimum wage isn't the solution in places where there just aren't enough houses/apartments to go around. If you magically doubled everyone's salary tomorrow, everyone would still want a place to live, there wouldn't be enough, rents and home prices would rise, and whoever had the least money would still end up without any options.

I remember reading a while ago about a real estate investment fund whose whole model was to go around LA, identify houses on lots big enough to hold multiple smaller but taller homes, buy the lot, tear down the home and build denser housing on the same land. Their supposed "secret sauce" was having figured out all the complexities of getting the lot subdivision and zoning and property inspection approved past all the roadblocks NIMBY neighbors normally throw up. This last bit stretched credulity from what I know about trying to build things in California.

Hope your job hunt bears fruit soon Johnez.

Kris

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 03:35:12 PM »
About 16% of the homeless have full-time jobs. About a quarter of the homeless are vets.

A major factor of homelessness for women is the need to escape from domestic violence.

Many report having mental illness. Many have disabilities.

Many are children.

I know that in The US, we have a narrative whereby we seem to believe that people need to “deserve” help in order to get it. We like to fall back on words like “lazy,” “criminals,” “drug addicted.”

But apparently, according to that narrative, just being a fellow human does not make one “deserving.”

There are reasons people are homeless. Many of those reasons have to do with some pretty fucked up aspects of our society.

We should be working to fix those things. And in the meantime, we should be helping those in need of help. Period.

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 03:35:43 PM »
I strongly feel that the solution to a lot of California homelessness is low cost housing inland where land is cheap supported by fast moving, cheap public transit.  The rich and their workaholics can have the coast.  The middle class and working poor can commute there to work jobs and to spend days at the beach. 

And maybe build a wall between California and the rest of the US.  If you aren't coming as tourist or with a job lined up, go home. 

One

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2018, 03:43:40 PM »
Portland Oregon is getting ridiculous, sad because it was such a nice place growing up. They’ve moved into the suburbs. The police and politicians just ignor the problem. Wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t for all the garage everywhere.

Kris

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2018, 03:52:43 PM »
About 16% of the homeless have full-time jobs. About a quarter of the homeless are vets.

A major factor of homelessness for women is the need to escape from domestic violence.

Many report having mental illness. Many have disabilities.

Many are children.

I know that in The US, we have a narrative whereby we seem to believe that people need to “deserve” help in order to get it. We like to fall back on words like “lazy,” “criminals,” “drug addicted.”

But apparently, according to that narrative, just being a fellow human does not make one “deserving.”

There are reasons people are homeless. Many of those reasons have to do with some pretty fucked up aspects of our society.

We should be working to fix those things. And in the meantime, we should be helping those in need of help. Period.

Agreed.  But how do you help people who don't want to be helped?  We have a classic case in our neighborhood.  A mentally ill/drug addicted lady who is being controlled by a guy who is himself addicted.  They took up residence outside our post office, where they would regularly defecate in full public view.  There is a porta-potty two blocks away but they refuse to use it.  They were offered housing several times -- the guy always refuses for one reason or another.  The woman is not in a position to override his decision.  They have caseworkers, but their hands seem to be tied.

People who don’t want to be helped exist in all walks of life.

For example, the spendypants we talk about on this blog.

There are tons of people who need help. Diverting the conversation to the examples of people who are not in a position to accept help right now is just that... a diversion.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2018, 04:04:00 PM »
^I read an article earlier this year about a homeless woman who died in her car. She worked at Disneyland, a hotel I think, and was not a typical homeless looking person. Few people can tell the working homeless from the average worker. It was quite sad, but apparently it's not uncommon.

When I go to my local bank I've noticed that a teller's car is loaded with clothes, empty water bottles, food wrappers, and blankets.

I hope she isn't living in her car.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2018, 11:12:36 PM »
I don't see (visible) homeless out here, but every time I go to California I feel like like the (visible) homeless population has increased. I don't know if that's a real trend or just that I notice them more now that I'm not seeing it every day.

Agreed that there are clearly a lot of people couch surfing or doubling up in apartments.
Some relevant metrics here:

https://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/mar/27/travis-allen/has-californias-homeless-population-skyrocketed-an/

"The report shows California’s homeless population jumped nearly 14 percent from 2016 to 2017 — to a total of more than 134,00 people. It rose nearly 9 percent over the previous seven years.

That’s much different than the national picture. While the national homeless population ticked up about 1 percent in 2017, it remained 13 percent lower than in 2010, according to an NPR analysis following the report’s release."

galliver

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2018, 12:47:02 AM »
My city (in LA county) recently approved a seemingly brilliant measure to allow motels to be turned into "supportive housing" i.e. Not just shelters but stable housing that connects residents to social workers, medical care, rehab, job training, life skills classes, etc. This type of program had been shown to work, to lift people out of homelessness, in this very city! And setting it up in a former motel is much faster than building a space (or remodeling other kinds of spaces).

First meeting to discuss a specific proposal got totally NIMBY'd. :( Partly, this was over inaccuracies (people thought was to be a temporary shelter, and also that it was much farther along than it actually was...). The other part was safety concerns, which I kind of get, but the fact is, the people this would serve are *already here* They walk the very street that was in question, and can totally walk to schools, residential neighbourhoods, etc. I would much rather they could get support and have stable shelter if they want it!

Cassie

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2018, 12:56:27 AM »
Reno has destroyed much of the low cost motels downtown that housed people with low income.  They are now empty lots that will eventually be upscale housing.  Meanwhile working people can’t afford rent or to buy a house.  We get cold here. Really sad.

Johnez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2018, 01:27:29 AM »
My city (in LA county) recently approved a seemingly brilliant measure to allow motels to be turned into "supportive housing" i.e. Not just shelters but stable housing that connects residents to social workers, medical care, rehab, job training, life skills classes, etc. This type of program had been shown to work, to lift people out of homelessness, in this very city! And setting it up in a former motel is much faster than building a space (or remodeling other kinds of spaces).

First meeting to discuss a specific proposal got totally NIMBY'd. :( Partly, this was over inaccuracies (people thought was to be a temporary shelter, and also that it was much farther along than it actually was...). The other part was safety concerns, which I kind of get, but the fact is, the people this would serve are *already here* They walk the very street that was in question, and can totally walk to schools, residential neighbourhoods, etc. I would much rather they could get support and have stable shelter if they want it!

I don't get the NIMBYism. The people are there, sleeping on sidewalks and parks already. Might as well give them a place to keep warm and decent and comfortable. Not in my backyard, well ok then-in every park, bench, and empty lot!

Asalted_Nut

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2018, 06:59:34 AM »
My city (in LA county) recently approved a seemingly brilliant measure to allow motels to be turned into "supportive housing" i.e. Not just shelters but stable housing that connects residents to social workers, medical care, rehab, job training, life skills classes, etc. This type of program had been shown to work, to lift people out of homelessness, in this very city! And setting it up in a former motel is much faster than building a space (or remodeling other kinds of spaces).

First meeting to discuss a specific proposal got totally NIMBY'd. :( Partly, this was over inaccuracies (people thought was to be a temporary shelter, and also that it was much farther along than it actually was...). The other part was safety concerns, which I kind of get, but the fact is, the people this would serve are *already here* They walk the very street that was in question, and can totally walk to schools, residential neighbourhoods, etc. I would much rather they could get support and have stable shelter if they want it!

I don't get the NIMBYism. The people are there, sleeping on sidewalks and parks already. Might as well give them a place to keep warm and decent and comfortable. Not in my backyard, well ok then-in every park, bench, and empty lot!

An attitude I hear a lot is: If you build it they will come. They fear that opening up centers that service those in need it will draw the masses to come and use those services, who then won't leave and will camp in the area when the center is closed. Not sure if that's the same mentality of people for housing or not.

Anecdotally I was having a conversation a while back with a family member about the increasing homeless situation on the West Coast. They live in a pretty upscale family-friendly neighborhood on the East Coast, which has its own park and wooded forest with some trails and streams right next to it, and at one point there was a homeless person camping in the woods. So being the neighborly individuals they were, helped him back on his feet! Just kidding; the people in the neighborhood had him removed from the area."Ran him out", was the phrase.

Granted I also don't know what the ordinances were for that area and camping, or if there had been any problems other than just a NIMBY attitude.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:16:03 AM by Asalted_Nut »

maizefolk

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2018, 07:14:07 AM »
I don't get the NIMBYism. The people are there, sleeping on sidewalks and parks already. Might as well give them a place to keep warm and decent and comfortable. Not in my backyard, well ok then-in every park, bench, and empty lot!

The think the implication of NIMBYism is: "please do build it, just in someone else's backyard."

So in the ideal scenario they're picturing the supportive housing gets built, it just gets built 10 miles away and all the present homeless in the neighborhood move there.

The irrationality comes in when they aren't able to model the thoughts of others enough to realize that whatever reasons they don't want the facility in their neighborhood means the folks 10 miles away also won't want it, so they don't realize that saying "you can't build this in our neighborhood" will end up being synonymous with "you can't build this."

Abe

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2018, 09:10:55 PM »
Regarding NIMBYism for homeless shelters:

1) There's no evidence that building shelters decreases property values overall. https://www.trulia.com/research/low-income-housing/

2) There's no reason that building supportive housing will attract excess homeless people to the area. If they show up and there's no space at that site, why would they stay in that specific location vs. somewhere else?

3) Assuming 2 is correct: stashing the homeless inside, rather than having them wander around pooping in the park, would probably improve property values.

Having lived in wealthy neighborhoods in Chicago and LA with large homeless populations, I can say that in these cases the homeless didn't just show up once the Starbucks and boutiques opened up. They were there before, but people who can afford $6 lattes complain louder than normal people.  There is an amazing lack of empathy for "others", and this reaches the extreme with the large dichotomies in wealth in the neighborhoods I live(d) in. Both scenarios had homeless living amongst millionaires who would rather buy a $100k car than help anyone else.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 09:13:17 PM by Abe »

galliver

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2018, 10:49:33 PM »
My city (in LA county) recently approved a seemingly brilliant measure to allow motels to be turned into "supportive housing" i.e. Not just shelters but stable housing that connects residents to social workers, medical care, rehab, job training, life skills classes, etc. This type of program had been shown to work, to lift people out of homelessness, in this very city! And setting it up in a former motel is much faster than building a space (or remodeling other kinds of spaces).

First meeting to discuss a specific proposal got totally NIMBY'd. :( Partly, this was over inaccuracies (people thought was to be a temporary shelter, and also that it was much farther along than it actually was...). The other part was safety concerns, which I kind of get, but the fact is, the people this would serve are *already here* They walk the very street that was in question, and can totally walk to schools, residential neighbourhoods, etc. I would much rather they could get support and have stable shelter if they want it!

I don't get the NIMBYism. The people are there, sleeping on sidewalks and parks already. Might as well give them a place to keep warm and decent and comfortable. Not in my backyard, well ok then-in every park, bench, and empty lot!
Part of the issue with NIMBYism is that many cities or counties want to house several hundred people in one temp location that only operates at night and doesn't offer any resources. So that means that instead of a few homeless here or there spread thru out a large area, you'll potentially have a hundred or more (often much more) all going to one place every single night and roving the adjuncent neighborhoods and parks enmass all day everyday. This is generally what most of the NIMBYism in the OC has been.about rather than providing long term perm shelters that provide adequate resources. Those plans are technically in place scattered thru out the county but will take time to implement and will have restrictions about who can stay. The below is a plan put forward this summer but didn't happen because of NIMBYism. From the OC Register:




Orange County Supervisor Shawn Nelson has proposed putting temporary homeless shelters on county-owned land in Irvine, Huntington Beach and Santa Ana – and he wants the first one to open within 30 days.

Under Nelson’s proposal, which was announced at Tuesday’s board meeting, the county would erect a large, temporary, 200-person, tent-like structure on each of those properties, adding 600 total beds for the homeless and installing portable bathrooms and showers on the land as well.

I think when NIMBYism kicks in, people go for fear-based reasoning rather than research and rational thought. I can understand the concerns about temp shelters better, although I still come up against the humanitarian argument, personally. People will be better off if they have access to beds, bathrooms, and showers, as well as contact with staff to connect them to resources, even if these things are temporary. But I just really have a hard time with those opposed to supportive housing facilities, which are 24/7, have requirements to stay enrolled, and are really for people to work their way out of homelessness and get back on their feet. And they are *there anyway*. Unfortunately, for many it seems that "solve the homeless problem" doesn't mean "help people get out of homelessness," it means "get the homeless people far away where I don't have to see or think about them." :(

Johnez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2018, 12:58:54 PM »
Thanks maizeman for the words of encouragement, getting closer.

Spartana-
Well dang, a couple hundred people in tent-like shelters doesn't sound like a permanent solution, but at least they aren't on the streets or in the park or on the bench that's on the way to some kid's school... Every time they clear out another motel in Anaheim, there goes 3 dozen or more families into the streets. Why the streets? They wouldn't go to the motels if they could get an apartment! I've lived it as a kid. I've seen more "jobs" created here with these fancy hotels going up and more housing leave than makes sense. Hurt most are the singles of course, who might not have the friend support and without family aren't really priority for aid from the gov't. With jobs that can't keep up with costs, few or no friends and no gov't help, it's little wonder that drugs are one option they turn to.

The problem as someone mentioned is definitely a North OC problem, but they were as far south as Costa Mesa, and well at the rate that the homeless have been cleared out and with the amount of wild open space in South OC I wouldn't be surprised if they find spots to camp out there.

simonsez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2018, 02:01:52 PM »
About 16% of the homeless have full-time jobs. About a quarter of the homeless are vets.

A major factor of homelessness for women is the need to escape from domestic violence.

Many report having mental illness. Many have disabilities.

Many are children.

I know that in The US, we have a narrative whereby we seem to believe that people need to “deserve” help in order to get it. We like to fall back on words like “lazy,” “criminals,” “drug addicted.”

But apparently, according to that narrative, just being a fellow human does not make one “deserving.”

There are reasons people are homeless. Many of those reasons have to do with some pretty fucked up aspects of our society.

We should be working to fix those things. And in the meantime, we should be helping those in need of help. Period.

Agreed.  But how do you help people who don't want to be helped?  We have a classic case in our neighborhood.  A mentally ill/drug addicted lady who is being controlled by a guy who is himself addicted.  They took up residence outside our post office, where they would regularly defecate in full public view.  There is a porta-potty two blocks away but they refuse to use it.  They were offered housing several times -- the guy always refuses for one reason or another.  The woman is not in a position to override his decision.  They have caseworkers, but their hands seem to be tied.

People who don’t want to be helped exist in all walks of life.

For example, the spendypants we talk about on this blog.

There are tons of people who need help. Diverting the conversation to the examples of people who are not in a position to accept help right now is just that... a diversion.
But if the homeless have higher proportions of mental/emotional/social issues compared to the non-homeless - aren't a lot of these "diversions" still out on the streets?  I thought the point was that there are a lot of homeless people, many would accept help but many would not.  Help is a pretty subjective term as well.  I know someone who likely will be homeless, surprised they are not already to be honest.  All kinds of "help" has been offered over the years but cash seems to be about the only type of help that is accepted.   Giving jobs, housing, professional help/care, etc. is nice when it's appreciated and utilized but when it's either refused or it smears your name as a result of you using your connections to help someone else, it becomes despairing.  Not to mention the stress from dealing with the irrational and unstable person is very hard on those that offer help in the first place.  It's gets tempting to sever contact completely after you've convinced yourself you did all that you could.

Let's say perfect world all the homeless that just had some bad luck (i.e. as opposed to being homeless as a result of deliberate poor choices) were able to be helped and back on their feet by some incredible systems and charity of people who give a damn.  Great!  Now what about all the remaining homeless?  They do not accept help and remain a blight.

Kris

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 02:09:43 PM »
About 16% of the homeless have full-time jobs. About a quarter of the homeless are vets.

A major factor of homelessness for women is the need to escape from domestic violence.

Many report having mental illness. Many have disabilities.

Many are children.

I know that in The US, we have a narrative whereby we seem to believe that people need to “deserve” help in order to get it. We like to fall back on words like “lazy,” “criminals,” “drug addicted.”

But apparently, according to that narrative, just being a fellow human does not make one “deserving.”

There are reasons people are homeless. Many of those reasons have to do with some pretty fucked up aspects of our society.

We should be working to fix those things. And in the meantime, we should be helping those in need of help. Period.

Agreed.  But how do you help people who don't want to be helped?  We have a classic case in our neighborhood.  A mentally ill/drug addicted lady who is being controlled by a guy who is himself addicted.  They took up residence outside our post office, where they would regularly defecate in full public view.  There is a porta-potty two blocks away but they refuse to use it.  They were offered housing several times -- the guy always refuses for one reason or another.  The woman is not in a position to override his decision.  They have caseworkers, but their hands seem to be tied.

People who don’t want to be helped exist in all walks of life.

For example, the spendypants we talk about on this blog.

There are tons of people who need help. Diverting the conversation to the examples of people who are not in a position to accept help right now is just that... a diversion.
But if the homeless have higher proportions of mental/emotional/social issues compared to the non-homeless - aren't a lot of these "diversions" still out on the streets?  I thought the point was that there are a lot of homeless people, many would accept help but many would not.  Help is a pretty subjective term as well.  I know someone who likely will be homeless, surprised they are not already to be honest.  All kinds of "help" has been offered over the years but cash seems to be about the only type of help that is accepted.   Giving jobs, housing, professional help/care, etc. is nice when it's appreciated and utilized but when it's either refused or it smears your name as a result of you using your connections to help someone else, it becomes despairing.  Not to mention the stress from dealing with the irrational and unstable person is very hard on those that offer help in the first place.  It's gets tempting to sever contact completely after you've convinced yourself you did all that you could.

Let's say perfect world all the homeless that just had some bad luck (i.e. as opposed to being homeless as a result of deliberate poor choices) were able to be helped and back on their feet by some incredible systems and charity of people who give a damn.  Great!  Now what about all the remaining homeless?  They do not accept help and remain a blight.

Okay. So, you're saying there are some people who just will not accept help no matter what. And they will remain a blight no matter what.

So, I'm not sure why you're asking "what about the remaining homeless?" because you're saying there's nothing to be done about them.

So, let's focus on tackling the mental/emotional/social issues that encompass the problems of the vast majority of the homeless.

mm1970

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 02:15:10 PM »
I have been one of the people pointing out homeless issues often, because it's a big deal here.

I don't want them near me.
My heart breaks to know that 20% of the students in our school are considered homeless.
I don't know the right answer.

I do know that it should be somewhat humane to give people a place to sleep, use the bathroom, and shower.  Do laundry. 

We are all in this together, no?

ncornilsen

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 03:03:01 PM »
My city (in LA county) recently approved a seemingly brilliant measure to allow motels to be turned into "supportive housing" i.e. Not just shelters but stable housing that connects residents to social workers, medical care, rehab, job training, life skills classes, etc. This type of program had been shown to work, to lift people out of homelessness, in this very city! And setting it up in a former motel is much faster than building a space (or remodeling other kinds of spaces).

First meeting to discuss a specific proposal got totally NIMBY'd. :( Partly, this was over inaccuracies (people thought was to be a temporary shelter, and also that it was much farther along than it actually was...). The other part was safety concerns, which I kind of get, but the fact is, the people this would serve are *already here* They walk the very street that was in question, and can totally walk to schools, residential neighbourhoods, etc. I would much rather they could get support and have stable shelter if they want it!

I don't get the NIMBYism. The people are there, sleeping on sidewalks and parks already. Might as well give them a place to keep warm and decent and comfortable. Not in my backyard, well ok then-in every park, bench, and empty lot!
Part of the issue with NIMBYism is that many cities or counties want to house several hundred people in one temp location that only operates at night and doesn't offer any resources. So that means that instead of a few homeless here or there spread thru out a large area, you'll potentially have a hundred or more (often much more) all going to one place every single night and roving the adjuncent neighborhoods and parks enmass all day everyday. This is generally what most of the NIMBYism in the OC has been.about rather than providing long term perm shelters that provide adequate resources. Those plans are technically in place scattered thru out the county but will take time to implement and will have restrictions about who can stay. The below is a plan put forward this summer but didn't happen because of NIMBYism. From the OC Register:




Orange County Supervisor Shawn Nelson has proposed putting temporary homeless shelters on county-owned land in Irvine, Huntington Beach and Santa Ana – and he wants the first one to open within 30 days.

Under Nelson’s proposal, which was announced at Tuesday’s board meeting, the county would erect a large, temporary, 200-person, tent-like structure on each of those properties, adding 600 total beds for the homeless and installing portable bathrooms and showers on the land as well.

I think when NIMBYism kicks in, people go for fear-based reasoning rather than research and rational thought. I can understand the concerns about temp shelters better, although I still come up against the humanitarian argument, personally. People will be better off if they have access to beds, bathrooms, and showers, as well as contact with staff to connect them to resources, even if these things are temporary. But I just really have a hard time with those opposed to supportive housing facilities, which are 24/7, have requirements to stay enrolled, and are really for people to work their way out of homelessness and get back on their feet. And they are *there anyway*. Unfortunately, for many it seems that "solve the homeless problem" doesn't mean "help people get out of homelessness," it means "get the homeless people far away where I don't have to see or think about them." :(

The humanitarian argument, as you call it, is certainly valid... BUT: To say that these people are "there anyway" is not necessarily true.

For example, if you have a larger town, say 150,000 people, and have 1000 homeless people spread out around this town, building a 1000 bed overnight-only shelter in a particular neighborhood means that 95% of the homeless people will become concentrated around that shelter overnight, with a large portion of those individuals moving through the neighborhood each day and night to get to thier panhandling corners, or other resources. It is not unreasonanle or ignorant of the facts to be against this - as houses, cars, and businesses in those areas WILL be hit much harder with crime, vandalism, and other issues.

It isn't blind, ignorant hate of the 'others' that drives people to resist these things, there are rational reasons not to want your neighborhood to become the repository of a cities homeless population.

simonsez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 03:18:03 PM »
Okay. So, you're saying there are some people who just will not accept help no matter what. And they will remain a blight no matter what.

So, I'm not sure why you're asking "what about the remaining homeless?" because you're saying there's nothing to be done about them.

So, let's focus on tackling the mental/emotional/social issues that encompass the problems of the vast majority of the homeless.
The OP mentioned the homeless, it was not specified if this is the "non-demented mentally stable person down on uncontrollable luck that won't commit crime" type of homeless or the "I'm irrational and don't want help" type.  They can be hard to tell apart during brief interactions. 

By not wanting help, I am including the type of homeless when they are begging for money and instead of giving them some, you offer food and they turn it down, presumably because the money would be used for booze/drugs.  Maybe the homeless are a very heterogeneous population and they can differ in areas but I'd say around half of my interactions with the homeless when offering food result in help not given.  Of course, I am framing help on my terms in these once or twice a month situations and some are incredibly grateful (some take it but don't say thanks or give you the time of day for going out of your way, which is fine, never know their state or what they're going through) and that is a rewarding experience but other times it is depressing.

I never said the vast majority of homeless don't have mental/emotional/social issues, I just think a sizable proportion of the homeless just want to be left alone or that pumping tax dollars into it won't solve much.  You obviously disagree and I hope you are right.  If there is a program that has unnecessary constraints on eligibility that leaves homeless people choosing not to accept the "help" when they otherwise would, that's some low-hanging fruit to be addressed no doubt.  Aside from that, my doubting Thomas nature with regard to this issue would still pay an extra few tax dollars or vote for pro-homeless resource measures.  But, like others have mentioned when you take care of a lot of the homeless in an area, it quickly becomes an area I don't want to live or visit.  I don't know how you fix that.

maizefolk

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 03:29:25 PM »
By not wanting help, I am including the type of homeless when they are begging for money and instead of giving them some, you offer food and they turn it down, presumably because the money would be used for booze/drugs.  Maybe the homeless are a very heterogeneous population and they can differ in areas but I'd say around half of my interactions with the homeless when offering food result in help not given.  Of course, I am framing help on my terms in these once or twice a month situations and some are incredibly grateful (some take it but don't say thanks or give you the time of day for going out of your way, which is fine, never know their state or what they're going through) and that is a rewarding experience but other times it is depressing.

I never said the vast majority of homeless don't have mental/emotional/social issues, I just think a sizable proportion of the homeless just want to be left alone or that pumping tax dollars into it won't solve much.  You obviously disagree and I hope you are right.  If there is a program that has unnecessary constraints on eligibility that leaves homeless people choosing not to accept the "help" when they otherwise would, that's some low-hanging fruit to be addressed no doubt.  Aside from that, my doubting Thomas nature with regard to this issue would still pay an extra few tax dollars or vote for pro-homeless resource measures.  But, like others have mentioned when you take care of a lot of the homeless in an area, it quickly becomes an area I don't want to live or visit.  I don't know how you fix that.

Part of the problem is different groups of people defined as homeless. If by the homeless you mean the visibly homeless (which would be the folks you see on the street and are offering food to), then the proportion of folks who are either unwilling to accept significant government help or unable to do so (due to mental health and/or drug issues) is going to substantially higher than if another person is using homeless to mean the total population of people without a home or apartment, which would include a lot of folks who are living out of their cars, a significant number of whom have jobs but cannot get an apartment because they are priced out of the market or have experienced personal disasters that left their finances a mess. In that second population (which is a superset of the first), the proportion of people who are unwilling or unable to accept help is going to be much smaller.

Abe

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 08:22:15 PM »
1. Well, the data they present suggests it isn't complete nonsense, and is plausible. Granted I would've used a larger distance from the shelter as a comparator, but that's just me with no experience in these study designs. Please explain the errors in their methods that make the findings invalid.
 
2. I agree with your point that high demand probably mitigates some depression in housing costs, so in areas with low demand there may be an effect. Within the discussion here, the study seems valid for HCOL cities.

3. Longmont apparently has 2 shelters. One seems to operate 4 separate sites, so I guess technically 5?

4. I've lived down the block from a homeless shelter in Chicago. Initially I was apprehensive about it, but after 6 years with no complaints my opinion changed. I was also able to sell the condo for well over what we paid. That's an anecdote of course.

Indexer

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 05:34:30 AM »
Regarding NIMBYism for homeless shelters:

1) There's no evidence that building shelters decreases property values overall. https://www.trulia.com/research/low-income-housing/

2) There's no reason that building supportive housing will attract excess homeless people to the area. If they show up and there's no space at that site, why would they stay in that specific location vs. somewhere else?

3) Assuming 2 is correct: stashing the homeless inside, rather than having them wander around pooping in the park, would probably improve property values.

1. That study is about low income housing, not homeless shelters. Saying that building a homeless shelter won't hurt property values because a study shows that low income housing doesn't hurt property values is misleading. I live in a very expensive part of my city(in a not very expensive older home), and there is a low-income housing building in the same area that used to be a hotel. The way I look at it is that many of the people working low paying jobs at the nearby gas stations, fast food restaurants, etc. probably live there. However, in this part of the city if someone panhandles the police will make them stop very quickly. In poorer part of the city they can do that all day. If someone openly did drugs on the street there would be a dozen or more phone calls to the police right away. People want to make sure the area stays safe. People are okay with the low-income building, but they would not be okay with a homeless shelter.

singpolyma

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 05:58:56 AM »
I do not understand comments about safety concerns: homeless people (even drug-addicted or mentally ill people) are not fundamentally more dangerous than any other people.

Indexer

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2018, 07:56:12 AM »
I do not understand comments about safety concerns: homeless people (even drug-addicted or mentally ill people) are not fundamentally more dangerous than any other people.

This flys in the face of common sense so I'm going to need a lot of sources for this one.

Someone who is addicted to a substance, to the point that withdrawal symptoms are unbearable, will do just about anything to get more of that substance. If they don't have the money to buy it then they are more likely to rob you than the average person. These substances also alter the mind, so people don't behave normally. We have all heard the stories of the abusive husband or father who was only violent when drinking.

The correlation between substance abuse and violent behavior has been well documented. For example, the Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment noted that more than 75 percent of people who begin treatment for drug addiction report having performed various acts of violence, including (but not limited to) mugging, physical assault, and using a weapon to attack another person.

PoutineLover

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2018, 08:18:23 AM »
I feel bad for most homeless people, especially in cities where it gets cold in the winter. I assisted with a survey of the homeless population in my city a few times, and everyone I met was friendly, willing to help and not scary at all. There are a few misconceptions and assumptions about homeless people that I wish people would understand. Many of them ended up on the street because of bad home situations, bad relationships, loss of jobs or mental health issues that make them incapable of holding down a job and therefore housing without further treatment. In many cases, once you lose a job or lose your home, it becomes very difficult to get a new one, because you need a job to get a home, and it's difficult to get a job when you don't have a home. It's a catch 22. People love talking about building shelters, but those are often very dangerous places, where people face violence and robbery, so they avoid them. Most of the homeless people I talked to said they wanted a job, but they didn't know how to find one. Many of them have criminal records, often related to them being homeless. Many of them owe fines, and so they don't qualify for low income housing, but their fines are for things like loitering, which is due to homelessness as well.
When people ask for cash instead of food, it's often for good reason. You need money to buy something to stay in a cafe for warmth for a little while. You need money for menstrual products. You need money to stay in a cheap dorm for the night. You need money for bus fare to get to your friend's place to crash. Food is nice (most times I've offered, people will take it) but money will satisfy your other needs. And you know what, sometimes it's for drugs. And honestly, I'm not going to judge. If that gets you through the night, if that is the only way to cope with an overwhelmingly shitty situation, if you can't afford rehab and you have an addiction, then sometimes that's what you need. I get my alcohol, coffee, weed, etc. whenever I want, so I am not going to pretend to be all high and mighty about it.
In my opinion, if we want homelessness to go away, we need to have a lot more homes available. Studies have shown that putting someone in a house first, then offering health and mental health services, job training and hunting, assistance with getting services, etc. works best. You don't know how much stress it is to live on the streets and wonder where you are getting your next meal or where you're going to crash. You can't focus on anything higher level when you can't meet your basic needs.
If you want to know something about homelessness, go talk to someone. Bring them into a cafe and have a coffee with them. Get to know their story. They are not boogymen or criminals. We are all a few shitty situations away from being in their shoes. Most of us have the skills or support systems we'd need to get back on our feet, but just imagine growing up with drug addicted parents, abusive parents, poverty, foster care, and realize that not everyone is lucky enough to develop those skills.
TLDR Don't demonize homeless people, they are people too. Give them homes and support, and most of them will become productive members of society. There are very few who are beyond saving.

jeninco

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2018, 08:54:53 AM »
I want to quote PoutineLover's entire text above me, but I don't want to make this a burdensome thing to read. So consider it quoted!

I also want to point out that the "housing first" approach they advocated for seems to work pretty well. Having studio apartments with case managers and support people in the building seems to be working pretty well in Denver, even just as measured in decreased emergency room costs. (https://www.denverpost.com/2017/10/30/denver-initiative-chronically-homeless-people-housing-promising/, because I'm sure someone will ask me.)

The "nothing will work for everyone" attitude is true, but is not a reason to not start doing something that will help some people. If we, as a society, can nibble away at the problem, perhaps by first providing subsidized housing to the working poor and families, then providing housing with services to some group of the single mentally-ill and addicted homeless, (and providing easy-to-access drug rehab for everyone) we can then begin looking carefully at who's left. Perhaps there will always be some who would prefer living outside, for whatever reason, but "the poor will always be with us" is no excuse for not helping those who can be helped.

LaineyAZ

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 08:55:03 AM »
Housing First, then follow-up with appropriate services, seems to be the most successful model:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First

I agree with others that there seem to be plenty of cheap motels that could be used, for starters.  I'd also give a few of those rooms to a social worker and/or police officer and/or medical worker for free if they agreed to live on-site, even for just a 6 month stint.

And an unpopular opinion: I believe some of the mental health buildings that were closed (and many rightly so for their abuses) need to be re-opened.  Of course human beings should have as much autonomy as possible, but maybe the pendulum has swung too far and we need to consider the rights of the community.  With strict safeguards in place, I have no issues with involuntary long-term stays in mental institutions. 


LaineyAZ

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2018, 08:56:26 AM »
jeninco, we posted at the same time, and I agree with what you've stated:  we have to start somewhere.

simonsez

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2018, 10:16:33 AM »
TLDR Don't demonize homeless people, they are people too. Give them homes and support, and most of them will become productive members of society. There are very few who are beyond saving.
Right, I said I was fine with paying a few more tax dollars for housing and professional care even though I'm hopeful yet dubious about the efficacy at a certain point.  I genuinely don't think the majority of tax-paying citizens in the current political climate will do that, though.  Maybe at the state or municipal level, though that is more feasible for certain areas.  Plus, it's shades of gray.  You might get a majority to agree that care for the homeless is inadequate but then some might say cell phones are a utility and programs should support this while others will argue it's a luxury and they don't want to spend money toward that.

I guess it is high and mighty but I do care what my dollars directly given to the homeless are used for.  When I was younger and didn't have as much disposable money, guess what, I didn't spend as much money on luxuries!  Now, other necessities besides food I am open to, I have given a blanket and a jacket away in the past - just food is easy/quick to buy usually.

And yes to the other posters chiming in about how a shelter is different than long-term housing.  Some of those long-term buildings look quite nice and you would never know the difference between that and a regular apartment building.  The one/complex in my very below average median HH income Rust Belt hometown where I grew up even has solar panels on the roof!

PoutineLover

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2018, 10:35:50 AM »
TLDR Don't demonize homeless people, they are people too. Give them homes and support, and most of them will become productive members of society. There are very few who are beyond saving.
Right, I said I was fine with paying a few more tax dollars for housing and professional care even though I'm hopeful yet dubious about the efficacy at a certain point.  I genuinely don't think the majority of tax-paying citizens in the current political climate will do that, though.  Maybe at the state or municipal level, though that is more feasible for certain areas.  Plus, it's shades of gray.  You might get a majority to agree that care for the homeless is inadequate but then some might say cell phones are a utility and programs should support this while others will argue it's a luxury and they don't want to spend money toward that.

I guess it is high and mighty but I do care what my dollars directly given to the homeless are used for.  When I was younger and didn't have as much disposable money, guess what, I didn't spend as much money on luxuries!  Now, other necessities besides food I am open to, I have given a blanket and a jacket away in the past - just food is easy/quick to buy usually.

And yes to the other posters chiming in about how a shelter is different than long-term housing.  Some of those long-term buildings look quite nice and you would never know the difference between that and a regular apartment building.  The one/complex in my very below average median HH income Rust Belt hometown where I grew up even has solar panels on the roof!
Count me among the people who say a phone and internet connection are essentials, not luxuries. Since most job applications are online, and you need to be able to receive calls to get interviews, it's basically a necessity. Plus being able to keep in touch with support systems, schedule appointments, find out opening hours of services, etc.
Obviously I wouldn't be thrilled if I handed someone money and they went and bought a beer. I'm just saying that most people apply a different standard to money when it's in someone else's hands, and it's not necessarily fair or warranted. I think even economically disadvantaged people deserve a break or small luxury sometimes, and if you choose to give someone money, you should give it freely without expectation.
For those who don't like their taxpayer dollars going to services and programs to alleviate homelessness, I'll say this. Allowing people to remain homeless costs a lot of money. Law enforcement, emergency room visits, homeless shelters, prisons, are very expensive and don't solve the problem. Housing, proper health care, and job training do cost something, but they work towards solutions, they cost less in the long run and they are more likely to get someone to end up as a taxpaying citizen. Plus they improve people's quality of life. I hate using money to get people to care about helping people, but for some that's the only thing that speaks to them.

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2018, 11:09:15 AM »
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics-unplugged/denver-homeless-population-has-quadrupled-over-last-four-years-rino-residents-feeling-frustration

up-thread i saw someone post about Denver being a success and i would definitely not say that is the case . There are more people homeless here then ever. Way more than the article linked above even claims. There are people at every corner in the metro area and suburbs. It is sad and it does get very cold here (much colder than Reno) which was mentioned earlier .  A big part of it is addiction which there should be more help for but it is more a disillusionment for society in general i think. Life sucks for a lot of people and I cannot blame them. Our medical, addiction and outreach in general leave a lot to be desired. Education is expensive, housing is expensive , wages are stagnant, etc, etc...there is not an easy fix. 

mm1970

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2018, 11:34:06 AM »
Quote
In my opinion, if we want homelessness to go away, we need to have a lot more homes available. Studies have shown that putting someone in a house first, then offering health and mental health services, job training and hunting, assistance with getting services, etc. works best. You don't know how much stress it is to live on the streets and wonder where you are getting your next meal or where you're going to crash. You can't focus on anything higher level when you can't meet your basic needs.

I just wanted to quote this from PoutineLover.  Very good.

mm1970

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Re: The homeless situation
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2018, 11:35:47 AM »
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics-unplugged/denver-homeless-population-has-quadrupled-over-last-four-years-rino-residents-feeling-frustration

up-thread i saw someone post about Denver being a success and i would definitely not say that is the case . There are more people homeless here then ever. Way more than the article linked above even claims. There are people at every corner in the metro area and suburbs. It is sad and it does get very cold here (much colder than Reno) which was mentioned earlier .  A big part of it is addiction which there should be more help for but it is more a disillusionment for society in general i think. Life sucks for a lot of people and I cannot blame them. Our medical, addiction and outreach in general leave a lot to be desired. Education is expensive, housing is expensive , wages are stagnant, etc, etc...there is not an easy fix.

With access to the raw data, all I can say about this is:

The two are not mutually exclusive.

You *can* have quite a bit of success in housing the homeless AND still end up with more homeless people.  As cost of living goes up and people lose their homes or rentals - and can't afford rent - you end up with more people on the street.

And that is just looking at Denver as a bubble.  It doesn't even consider that perhaps Denver is getting homeless people from elsewhere.