Author Topic: What’s wrong with men?  (Read 36776 times)

OtherJen

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #600 on: July 06, 2021, 12:49:10 PM »
Thank you for this thread. The discussion around rape and sexual assault has been informative.

Quote
I have to say I have so much respect for the women continuing to engage in the conversation here.  While it's not our job to educate and spoonfeed, the dialogue here is obviously the first interaction a lot of men on this forum are having with something that effects every single women that interact with.  Hopefully it stirs folks to introspect on what they can do.

It has me thinking about some things I'm going to say to my kids about consent when they're older. Just like I reject the soft bigotry of low expectations when it comes to race, I'm going to tell any male child I have that they're still expected to control themselves and respect women regardless of their hormones. (I'll also help them find constructive ways to channel that energy!)  I hope to instill some agency in my daughter to not accept creepy behavior and to leave those situations.


Just curious how old your children are, and at what age you plan on teaching them consent.  Ours is not yet 3, but it's already part of our daily messaging. Kids can learn about sharing and feelings - consent is no harder.  Early on the lessons need not be about sex at all, but how they interact with other people and their bodies (e.g. you ask before giving someone a hug/kiss/picking them up, and they say no, that means no...)

GREAT point.

When I was 5, my parents bought a house in a different city, so we moved and I had to leave the kind family full of kids next door and my beloved elementary school at the end of our street. Of course, I wanted new friends, so I played with the new next-door neighbors and the kids on the block (this was the mid-1980s). A few of the kids had older siblings. One, a teenaged boy, sometimes brought his younger siblings to play in our yard. After a couple of visits, he then asked me to pull down my pants so he could look. I'd had a LOT of conversations with my parents about what was and wasn't okay for people to do or ask me to do, so I told him "no" and went inside to get my mom. I never saw that kid again.

Without those early conversations about consent, though, who knows whether I'd have gone along with it to keep my new friends and what might have happened next?

Villanelle

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #601 on: July 06, 2021, 12:55:01 PM »
Thank you for this thread. The discussion around rape and sexual assault has been informative.

Quote
I have to say I have so much respect for the women continuing to engage in the conversation here.  While it's not our job to educate and spoonfeed, the dialogue here is obviously the first interaction a lot of men on this forum are having with something that effects every single women that interact with.  Hopefully it stirs folks to introspect on what they can do.

It has me thinking about some things I'm going to say to my kids about consent when they're older. Just like I reject the soft bigotry of low expectations when it comes to race, I'm going to tell any male child I have that they're still expected to control themselves and respect women regardless of their hormones. (I'll also help them find constructive ways to channel that energy!)  I hope to instill some agency in my daughter to not accept creepy behavior and to leave those situations.


Just curious how old your children are, and at what age you plan on teaching them consent.  Ours is not yet 3, but it's already part of our daily messaging. Kids can learn about sharing and feelings - consent is no harder.  Early on the lessons need not be about sex at all, but how they interact with other people and their bodies (e.g. you ask before giving someone a hug/kiss/picking them up, and they say no, that means no...)

GREAT point.

When I was 5, my parents bought a house in a different city, so we moved and I had to leave the kind family full of kids next door and my beloved elementary school at the end of our street. Of course, I wanted new friends, so I played with the new next-door neighbors and the kids on the block (this was the mid-1980s). A few of the kids had older siblings. One, a teenaged boy, sometimes brought his younger siblings to play in our yard. After a couple of visits, he then asked me to pull down my pants so he could look. I'd had a LOT of conversations with my parents about what was and wasn't okay for people to do or ask me to do, so I told him "no" and went inside to get my mom. I never saw that kid again.

Without those early conversations about consent, though, who knows whether I'd have gone along with it to keep my new friends and what might have happened next?

And not just with other kids, or strangers and people they don't know very well.  "You must hug grandpa" or "auntie was tickling you and even though you didn't like the way it made you feel, it's okay".  These kinds of things start teaching kids early that their bodies aren't really their own to control, and that they are expected to tolerate touch that doesn't make them comfortable.  And that other people's feelings are more important than  their own comfort.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #602 on: July 06, 2021, 01:13:34 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.

A widowed friend told me people kept hugging her to comfort her when her husband had just died, when she really didn't want to be touched, let alone hugged.  They didn't ask first.

Seriously, when I cut my hair short, so many casual friends patted my head because it was "so fluffy now".  Who pats a middle aged woman on the head to feel her new hair texture?  I'm not a dog or cat or llama or alpaca.

The fact that both men and women don't respect women's body autonomy is part of the whole "patriarchal society" culture that rape culture is the result of.  When we are taught as little girls to let others disrespect our boundaries,  as described above, how do we see ourselves and other women as adults?  With easily ignored physical boundaries.  And how do men see us?  As people whom they have license to touch.
 

Metalcat

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #603 on: July 06, 2021, 01:24:49 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.

A widowed friend told me people kept hugging her to comfort her when her husband had just died, when she really didn't want to be touched, let alone hugged.  They didn't ask first.

Seriously, when I cut my hair short, so many casual friends patted my head because it was "so fluffy now".  Who pats a middle aged woman on the head to feel her new hair texture?  I'm not a dog or cat or llama or alpaca.

The fact that both men and women don't respect women's body autonomy is part of the whole "patriarchal society" culture that rape culture is the result of.  When we are taught as little girls to let others disrespect our boundaries,  as described above, how do we see ourselves and other women as adults?  With easily ignored physical boundaries.  And how do men see us?  As people whom they have license to touch.

A classmate (in a professional program, so a current colleague) used to grab my breasts every time she got drunk.

ncornilsen

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #604 on: July 06, 2021, 01:38:44 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.

A widowed friend told me people kept hugging her to comfort her when her husband had just died, when she really didn't want to be touched, let alone hugged.  They didn't ask first.

Seriously, when I cut my hair short, so many casual friends patted my head because it was "so fluffy now".  Who pats a middle aged woman on the head to feel her new hair texture?  I'm not a dog or cat or llama or alpaca.

The fact that both men and women don't respect women's body autonomy is part of the whole "patriarchal society" culture that rape culture is the result of.  When we are taught as little girls to let others disrespect our boundaries,  as described above, how do we see ourselves and other women as adults?  With easily ignored physical boundaries.  And how do men see us?  As people whom they have license to touch.

The only thing there unique to women is the baby bump... which touching without permission is weird and clearly over the line. As a person who sports a buzzcut, I can assure you THAT is not unique to any one gender. Nor the unsolicited hugging thing.

Quote
GREAT point.

When I was 5, my parents bought a house in a different city, so we moved and I had to leave the kind family full of kids next door and my beloved elementary school at the end of our street. Of course, I wanted new friends, so I played with the new next-door neighbors and the kids on the block (this was the mid-1980s). A few of the kids had older siblings. One, a teenaged boy, sometimes brought his younger siblings to play in our yard. After a couple of visits, he then asked me to pull down my pants so he could look. I'd had a LOT of conversations with my parents about what was and wasn't okay for people to do or ask me to do, so I told him "no" and went inside to get my mom. I never saw that kid again.

Without those early conversations about consent, though, who knows whether I'd have gone along with it to keep my new friends and what might have happened next?

Indeed, this is a good point to consider. I'll ponder that.  I was thinking more along the lines of sexual consent specifically, but it's true that it is a more comprehsive issue.

that said, we do some basic stuff, like we do not force her to hug people she doesn't want to. We also make it easy to spare feelings by simply saying "Go give hugs!" and she hugs who she wants... which is either everyone 3 times or nobody at all, depending on which way the "toddler mode" bit is flipped that day.

 

GuitarStv

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #605 on: July 06, 2021, 02:07:39 PM »
Nor the unsolicited hugging thing.

The greatest thing about covid has been a year and a half without hugging.

Metalcat

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #606 on: July 06, 2021, 02:15:07 PM »
If someone could take the time to read through the thread completely they'd notice the exact trend that seems to stop any progress on this topic.

There are a lot of women in here being incredibly candid, helpful, and vulnerable way beyond what they should have to. And every page or 2 someone comes along and demeans them while derailing the entire thread with some disproven or juvenile point on why male violence is inevitable, or not as ubiquitous as it surely is, or straight up doesn't matter.

I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.

Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

I typically don't get involved, but this threads like this, the way it started, were making me want to permanently leave the forum. I was pretty close to packing up and quitting before I was like "fuck it, why not jump in?"

But yeah, it's been a fucking slog.

GuitarStv

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #607 on: July 06, 2021, 02:28:10 PM »
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

I typically don't get involved, but this threads like this, the way it started, were making me want to permanently leave the forum. I was pretty close to packing up and quitting before I was like "fuck it, why not jump in?"

But yeah, it's been a fucking slog.


FWIW, I feel that I've had some of my opinions and ideas both challenged and changed from this thread.  I do appreciate the input that you and others have given.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #608 on: July 06, 2021, 02:29:35 PM »
If someone could take the time to read through the thread completely they'd notice the exact trend that seems to stop any progress on this topic.

There are a lot of women in here being incredibly candid, helpful, and vulnerable way beyond what they should have to. And every page or 2 someone comes along and demeans them while derailing the entire thread with some disproven or juvenile point on why male violence is inevitable, or not as ubiquitous as it surely is, or straight up doesn't matter.

I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.

Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

I typically don't get involved, but this threads like this, the way it started, were making me want to permanently leave the forum. I was pretty close to packing up and quitting before I was like "fuck it, why not jump in?"

But yeah, it's been a fucking slog.

It's been a fucking slog for a long long time. 

shelivesthedream

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #609 on: July 06, 2021, 02:35:14 PM »
Can anyone link to any nuanced online written resources about toddler consent?

"Stop hugging your little sister when she screeches no" and "Shut up, grandma, he does not have to eat any more if he's not hungry" have been great conversation starters, but "You DO have to sit on the potty RIGHT NOW because I as an adult know this is the last opportunity you'll get for the next hour and I am not having you wet yourself on the train because you wouldn't sit now, and I will carry you in there if I have to, dammit!" feels like we're sending slightly mixed messages...But he's only three, so sometimes he does have to do things he doesn't want to and I've not yet figured out the right phrasing to explain the different categories of event to him.

-

Personally, one thing which would help me report rape/sexual assault would be if I could do the whole thing online. I don't mean anonymously, but not having to speak to a real person - just typing a statement into a form and answering a few questions. ESPECIALLY if I knew I could tick a box at the end to say yes/no to being contacted for follow up questions and yes/no to would I help being charges. I would be much more likely to report if I knew I could just click "Submit" and never ever hear about it again. Yes, that wouldn't put my rapist behind bars, but it might help the police either get a better broad picture or bring out my statement if the rapist was charged for another crime later.

And we did talk about consent at school, but I wish we had done some roleplaying of different consent scenarios from different perspectives - consenter, consenter, bystander. We did some roleplaying for being pressured to drink or take drugs, but nothing on consent. And roleplaying that was brutally realistic in giving options that you might actually say, not just the optimal thing to say.  I've picked up some bystander options as an adult, but had no clue as a teen how I might defuse a situation or challenge someone without it being a Huge Thing - which I would never do. Roleplaying would also be a helpful tool in workplace trainings - especially how to call out those "innocuous" comments with varying degrees of subtlety depending on how much confrontation you're up for.

Metalcat

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #610 on: July 06, 2021, 02:36:35 PM »
If someone could take the time to read through the thread completely they'd notice the exact trend that seems to stop any progress on this topic.

There are a lot of women in here being incredibly candid, helpful, and vulnerable way beyond what they should have to. And every page or 2 someone comes along and demeans them while derailing the entire thread with some disproven or juvenile point on why male violence is inevitable, or not as ubiquitous as it surely is, or straight up doesn't matter.

I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.

Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

I typically don't get involved, but this threads like this, the way it started, were making me want to permanently leave the forum. I was pretty close to packing up and quitting before I was like "fuck it, why not jump in?"

But yeah, it's been a fucking slog.

It's been a fucking slog for a long long time.

A-fucking-men to that.

MudPuppy

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #611 on: July 06, 2021, 03:31:34 PM »
@shelivesthedream

Quote
But he's only three, so sometimes he does have to do things he doesn't want to and I've not yet figured out the right phrasing to explain the different categories of event to him.

One option is to give the person choices. It isn’t perfect, but telling the person “our time on the train is done now. When we get off the train, do you want to hop like a bunny, be carried like a laundry basket, or ride the stroller like a race car?” can give the person a sense of some autonomy even when the end result needs to be the same for health/safety reasons.

tygertygertyger

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #612 on: July 06, 2021, 05:38:23 PM »
Another example on teaching consent to young kids:
I went to the beach this weekend with a friend and her two kids. We were playing in the water with squirt guns, and her son (5yrs) got me right in the chest, and I said “no!” It was cold! When her son refilled and aimed at me again, my friend immediately said “no (son), tyger said no, don’t squirt her anymore”. Later I rejoined the water fight, but it was nice to see that consent lesson reinforced for any unwanted attention/action.

Sandi_k

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #613 on: July 07, 2021, 01:00:16 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.


OMG, so true. At my workplace, there was a SH complaint against a senior official. In the investigation notes (which were redacted and shared with HR folks) there was a report on the allegations and interviews. I decided my unit's leadership needed to discuss the BEHAVIORS that the complainant had objected to, so we could steer our teams more carefully.

My boss (68 at the time, male and pale) agreed to the topic. When we started the conversation, one allegation was that the official had hugged, kissed, patted and touched the direct report (a woman of color). In discussing what was an appropriate guideline, I suggested "How about NO TOUCHING?" All the women at the table agreed, that seemed like a decent rule, with perhaps "high fives" noted as OK.

My boss lost his ever-loving mind. "That's too restrictive! It will destroy the department's culture! We're a friendly place, and that will make it sad and detached!" He absolutely refused that suggestion as a guideline. In a later convo, he again criticised my suggestion, and noted that he had supervised women for 40 years, and he regularly patted them on the shoulder or the back, and it was "benign."

I thought hard for a minute, and decided to launch the response. "OK, YOU think it's benign. But if you're a woman, is it a pat-pat-stop? Or is it pat-pat-rest-my-hand? Or is it pat-pat-slide-down-her-back? Or is it pat-pat-make-circular-petting-motions? All of those ARE DIFFERENT if you are the recipient. YOUR INTENT doesn't matter! If the woman you are doing this to is wearing a bra, you have just fondled her over her undergarments, and made her THINK about YOU feeling that bra. And what if she's a sexual assault survivor? How does that feel to HER - you're a big guy, looming nearby, and YOU got to decide to touch HER?"

To his credit, he was APPALLED. He had honestly never thought of those issues.

He's now 74, and he's pretty restrained with touching employees these days. I credit my willingness to knock him upside the head verbally, plus the #MeToo stories and circumstances.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 01:02:24 PM by Sandi_k »

Villanelle

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #614 on: July 07, 2021, 02:43:05 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.


OMG, so true. At my workplace, there was a SH complaint against a senior official. In the investigation notes (which were redacted and shared with HR folks) there was a report on the allegations and interviews. I decided my unit's leadership needed to discuss the BEHAVIORS that the complainant had objected to, so we could steer our teams more carefully.

My boss (68 at the time, male and pale) agreed to the topic. When we started the conversation, one allegation was that the official had hugged, kissed, patted and touched the direct report (a woman of color). In discussing what was an appropriate guideline, I suggested "How about NO TOUCHING?" All the women at the table agreed, that seemed like a decent rule, with perhaps "high fives" noted as OK.

My boss lost his ever-loving mind. "That's too restrictive! It will destroy the department's culture! We're a friendly place, and that will make it sad and detached!" He absolutely refused that suggestion as a guideline. In a later convo, he again criticised my suggestion, and noted that he had supervised women for 40 years, and he regularly patted them on the shoulder or the back, and it was "benign."

I thought hard for a minute, and decided to launch the response. "OK, YOU think it's benign. But if you're a woman, is it a pat-pat-stop? Or is it pat-pat-rest-my-hand? Or is it pat-pat-slide-down-her-back? Or is it pat-pat-make-circular-petting-motions? All of those ARE DIFFERENT if you are the recipient. YOUR INTENT doesn't matter! If the woman you are doing this to is wearing a bra, you have just fondled her over her undergarments, and made her THINK about YOU feeling that bra. And what if she's a sexual assault survivor? How does that feel to HER - you're a big guy, looming nearby, and YOU got to decide to touch HER?"

To his credit, he was APPALLED. He had honestly never thought of those issues.

He's now 74, and he's pretty restrained with touching employees these days. I credit my willingness to knock him upside the head verbally, plus the #MeToo stories and circumstances.

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!" 

CodingHare

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #615 on: July 07, 2021, 02:49:19 PM »
Women don't own their bodies. Ask anyone who touches a pregnant woman's baby bump.  It's so engrained, women push body boundaries too.


OMG, so true. At my workplace, there was a SH complaint against a senior official. In the investigation notes (which were redacted and shared with HR folks) there was a report on the allegations and interviews. I decided my unit's leadership needed to discuss the BEHAVIORS that the complainant had objected to, so we could steer our teams more carefully.

My boss (68 at the time, male and pale) agreed to the topic. When we started the conversation, one allegation was that the official had hugged, kissed, patted and touched the direct report (a woman of color). In discussing what was an appropriate guideline, I suggested "How about NO TOUCHING?" All the women at the table agreed, that seemed like a decent rule, with perhaps "high fives" noted as OK.

My boss lost his ever-loving mind. "That's too restrictive! It will destroy the department's culture! We're a friendly place, and that will make it sad and detached!" He absolutely refused that suggestion as a guideline. In a later convo, he again criticised my suggestion, and noted that he had supervised women for 40 years, and he regularly patted them on the shoulder or the back, and it was "benign."

I thought hard for a minute, and decided to launch the response. "OK, YOU think it's benign. But if you're a woman, is it a pat-pat-stop? Or is it pat-pat-rest-my-hand? Or is it pat-pat-slide-down-her-back? Or is it pat-pat-make-circular-petting-motions? All of those ARE DIFFERENT if you are the recipient. YOUR INTENT doesn't matter! If the woman you are doing this to is wearing a bra, you have just fondled her over her undergarments, and made her THINK about YOU feeling that bra. And what if she's a sexual assault survivor? How does that feel to HER - you're a big guy, looming nearby, and YOU got to decide to touch HER?"

To his credit, he was APPALLED. He had honestly never thought of those issues.

He's now 74, and he's pretty restrained with touching employees these days. I credit my willingness to knock him upside the head verbally, plus the #MeToo stories and circumstances.

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

I've always thought it's a self defense mechanism.  If we make no touching as the default the rule, it forces these people to think about their past interactions and wonder if they overstepped and made someone uncomfortable.  And that goes against their self image as a Good Friendly Person (TM), so they reject it.

It's also hard because women will push back against it too.  My mom had a huge fit over me not liking her randomly touching my hair.  Doubled down on aggressively petting it.  I've been in so many coworker situations (usually all female groups) where hugging was encouraged and you would be looked at weird for not wanting to do it.  If you are a woman, your body is for other people.  Unless you don't mind being an asshole and pushing against the grain.

(Learning to embrace being called an asshole by people trying to make me do things that made me uncomfortable was very freeing.)

Metalcat

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #616 on: July 07, 2021, 03:03:21 PM »
(Learning to embrace being called an asshole by people trying to make me do things that made me uncomfortable was very freeing.)

So true. My life became so much easier when I embraced being perceived as a total asshole for defending my boundaries.

Being a proud female asshole is like having a super power. The conditioning to need to be perceived as likable is hard to shed and deeply satisfying when you do.

Sandi_k

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #617 on: July 07, 2021, 03:15:48 PM »
(Learning to embrace being called an asshole by people trying to make me do things that made me uncomfortable was very freeing.)

So true. My life became so much easier when I embraced being perceived as a total asshole for defending my boundaries.

Being a proud female asshole is like having a super power. The conditioning to need to be perceived as likable is hard to shed and deeply satisfying when you do.

And this is why FI and retirement are so appealing to me. I can't be a total asshole in the hierarchy within which I work. Usually, I can be pleasantly firm, and it works. But yeah - that particular boss was a challenge. The very mention of the word privilege made him salty.

OtherJen

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #618 on: July 07, 2021, 03:42:54 PM »
(Learning to embrace being called an asshole by people trying to make me do things that made me uncomfortable was very freeing.)

So true. My life became so much easier when I embraced being perceived as a total asshole for defending my boundaries.

Being a proud female asshole is like having a super power. The conditioning to need to be perceived as likable is hard to shed and deeply satisfying when you do.

And this is why FI and retirement are so appealing to me. I can't be a total asshole in the hierarchy within which I work. Usually, I can be pleasantly firm, and it works. But yeah - that particular boss was a challenge. The very mention of the word privilege made him salty.

I seriously love my 100% remote job. None of my bosses or colleagues have seen me below the shoulders and can't tell that I am short and top-heavy, and unwanted touching or comments are never something I need to worry about. (True, one of my cats tends to lack physical contact boundaries and the other likes to air his grievances during my morning meetings, but I can physically move them as needed.)

OtherJen

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #619 on: July 07, 2021, 03:49:21 PM »

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

Yep. My stalker was my former choir director. He liked to touch me and some of the other women in the group: a hand on the neck or lower back, an unwanted hug (generally, when the intended huggee freezes up with their arms crossed over their chests or actually ducks, the hugger shouldn't have to be given a hard verbal NO), an occasional kiss on the head. He actually embraced one of our other singers and kissed her neck, at which point she wisely refused to be alone in a room with him.

When I confronted him and asked him to stop (before I learned about the stalking), his response was that he thought we were such good friends, he was seeking comfort, I had been fine with it before (I hadn't—that was the "freeze" response) and he didn't understand what had changed, etc. It turned into a big, emotional drama on his part, with the intent (I assume) to make me feel like a jerk so that he could keep touching me.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #620 on: July 07, 2021, 04:24:51 PM »

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

Yep. My stalker was my former choir director. He liked to touch me and some of the other women in the group: a hand on the neck or lower back, an unwanted hug (generally, when the intended huggee freezes up with their arms crossed over their chests or actually ducks, the hugger shouldn't have to be given a hard verbal NO), an occasional kiss on the head. He actually embraced one of our other singers and kissed her neck, at which point she wisely refused to be alone in a room with him.

When I confronted him and asked him to stop (before I learned about the stalking), his response was that he thought we were such good friends, he was seeking comfort, I had been fine with it before (I hadn't—that was the "freeze" response) and he didn't understand what had changed, etc. It turned into a big, emotional drama on his part, with the intent (I assume) to make me feel like a jerk so that he could keep touching me.

This is why I want my own personal force field that I could set for any desired distance.  For your choir director, a metre would be good.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #621 on: July 07, 2021, 04:28:04 PM »

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

Yep. My stalker was my former choir director. He liked to touch me and some of the other women in the group: a hand on the neck or lower back, an unwanted hug (generally, when the intended huggee freezes up with their arms crossed over their chests or actually ducks, the hugger shouldn't have to be given a hard verbal NO), an occasional kiss on the head. He actually embraced one of our other singers and kissed her neck, at which point she wisely refused to be alone in a room with him.

When I confronted him and asked him to stop (before I learned about the stalking), his response was that he thought we were such good friends, he was seeking comfort, I had been fine with it before (I hadn't—that was the "freeze" response) and he didn't understand what had changed, etc. It turned into a big, emotional drama on his part, with the intent (I assume) to make me feel like a jerk so that he could keep touching me.

This is why I want my own personal force field that I could set for any desired distance.  For your choir director, a metre would be good.

He's no longer my choir director. He was replaced once the powers that be couldn't ignore the problem any longer.

Kris

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #622 on: July 07, 2021, 04:29:22 PM »

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

Yep. My stalker was my former choir director. He liked to touch me and some of the other women in the group: a hand on the neck or lower back, an unwanted hug (generally, when the intended huggee freezes up with their arms crossed over their chests or actually ducks, the hugger shouldn't have to be given a hard verbal NO), an occasional kiss on the head. He actually embraced one of our other singers and kissed her neck, at which point she wisely refused to be alone in a room with him.

When I confronted him and asked him to stop (before I learned about the stalking), his response was that he thought we were such good friends, he was seeking comfort, I had been fine with it before (I hadn't—that was the "freeze" response) and he didn't understand what had changed, etc. It turned into a big, emotional drama on his part, with the intent (I assume) to make me feel like a jerk so that he could keep touching me.

This is why I want my own personal force field that I could set for any desired distance.  For your choir director, a metre would be good.

He's no longer my choir director. He was replaced once the powers that be couldn't ignore the problem any longer.

Thank god.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #623 on: July 07, 2021, 07:38:54 PM »

It never ceases to fascinate me that for so many men, their discomfort with restrictions is more important than a woman's (or man's) comfort with being able to control who touches her, and how.  Some dude feeling a little sad because he can't put is paws on everyone without permission thinks that trumps (errrr, no pun...) the discomfort at people being pawed at by their boss and not feeling like they can object without creating workplace issues.  And they are probably right about that, given that the dude clearly thinks license to grope is more important than defaulting to respecting bodily autonomy and not touching without explicit consent. 

"But I'll feel sad if I can't touch people any more without any regard for how uncomfortable they might be, and we can't have that!"

Yep. My stalker was my former choir director. He liked to touch me and some of the other women in the group: a hand on the neck or lower back, an unwanted hug (generally, when the intended huggee freezes up with their arms crossed over their chests or actually ducks, the hugger shouldn't have to be given a hard verbal NO), an occasional kiss on the head. He actually embraced one of our other singers and kissed her neck, at which point she wisely refused to be alone in a room with him.

When I confronted him and asked him to stop (before I learned about the stalking), his response was that he thought we were such good friends, he was seeking comfort, I had been fine with it before (I hadn't—that was the "freeze" response) and he didn't understand what had changed, etc. It turned into a big, emotional drama on his part, with the intent (I assume) to make me feel like a jerk so that he could keep touching me.

This is why I want my own personal force field that I could set for any desired distance.  For your choir director, a metre would be good.

He's no longer my choir director. He was replaced once the powers that be couldn't ignore the problem any longer.

Thank god.

This.

shelivesthedream

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #624 on: July 08, 2021, 03:46:26 AM »
The "You used to be OK with it! What's changed?!" thing really bugs me. It's totally deflecting from the real issue. Whether anything has changed or not, from now on you need to not touch me. That's the point.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #625 on: July 09, 2021, 02:44:02 PM »
I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

Please flag these sorts of things for moderation.  We have a few moderators and thousands(?) of posts per day, so you've got to let us know.

I want this forum turning into some kind of incel heaven as little as anyone, but I can't be everywhere.

Thanks for your help here.

Toque.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #626 on: July 09, 2021, 06:17:43 PM »
I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

Please flag these sorts of things for moderation.  We have a few moderators and thousands(?) of posts per day, so you've got to let us know.

I want this forum turning into some kind of incel heaven as little as anyone, but I can't be everywhere.

Thanks for your help here.

Toque.

I can't speak for other women, but I deal with this shit so often, it wouldn't occur to me to moderate it. It's just part of the noise of my world.

This is just what life is like.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #627 on: July 09, 2021, 07:58:42 PM »
I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

Please flag these sorts of things for moderation.  We have a few moderators and thousands(?) of posts per day, so you've got to let us know.

I want this forum turning into some kind of incel heaven as little as anyone, but I can't be everywhere.

Thanks for your help here.

Toque.

I can't speak for other women, but I deal with this shit so often, it wouldn't occur to me to moderate it. It's just part of the noise of my world.

This is just what life is like.

This wasn't nearly as bad as some of the random stuff out there.

AITA has a good selection recently from the football fan who was upset his GF was slow being released from hospital after complications after appendicitis who abandoned her in a strange city so he could watch the game with his buddies, to the boyfriend who expected his GF to cook Thanksgiving dinner for his parents and to have to take a day off work (and lose pay, and spend money on all the fancy food) to do it, to some of the really icky ones I don't want to report here.  Common thread is the entitlement and expectations and the GF being a second class citizen.

(I have got stop reading AITA, it is so discouraging.  Consideration, politeness and common sense seem to have left the planet.)

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #628 on: July 09, 2021, 08:03:13 PM »
I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

Please flag these sorts of things for moderation.  We have a few moderators and thousands(?) of posts per day, so you've got to let us know.

I want this forum turning into some kind of incel heaven as little as anyone, but I can't be everywhere.

Thanks for your help here.

Toque.

I can't speak for other women, but I deal with this shit so often, it wouldn't occur to me to moderate it. It's just part of the noise of my world.

This is just what life is like.

Bingo.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #629 on: July 10, 2021, 05:36:22 AM »
I'd hoped for more on this forum and am in awe of those still educating people willing to pay attention.
Yeah...it's been a bit of a slog.

Please flag these sorts of things for moderation.  We have a few moderators and thousands(?) of posts per day, so you've got to let us know.

I want this forum turning into some kind of incel heaven as little as anyone, but I can't be everywhere.

Thanks for your help here.

Toque.

I can't speak for other women, but I deal with this shit so often, it wouldn't occur to me to moderate it. It's just part of the noise of my world.

This is just what life is like.

Bingo.

And it's why we are hanging in.  Because it is invisible to most men until their attention is drawn to it.  And then their eyes are opened a bit.

After all, before the suffragettes the idea of women voting was downright hilarious, if not shocking, since their delicate little minds were just not cut out for the big nasty world.  Now women voting is a given (I hope?).  Things take time to change, but they also need people to keep pushing.  The status quo has the advantage of inertia.

I blame the Victorians.  There are lots of capable women in history but their stories were blotted out because for the Victorians, everyone had to be "ladylike" and anything pubic to do with sex was taboo - tablecloths because table legs were suggestive.  Their private sex lives, on the other hand . . . .

nereo

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #630 on: July 10, 2021, 06:00:28 AM »
…wait, table-clothes were used to hide “provocative” table legs?  Wow, just…wow.

I always wondered why a society that didn’t have washing machines would revel in making themselves more laundry.  Then again they seem to have just adored covering everything with layers of fabric - even themselves.*


*SIL, who’s hobby is making clothes, remarked recently that a Victorian costume dress she recently made used 11 yards of fabric - about 5x what her typical dresses take.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #631 on: July 10, 2021, 09:32:59 AM »
…wait, table-clothes were used to hide “provocative” table legs?  Wow, just…wow.

I always wondered why a society that didn’t have washing machines would revel in making themselves more laundry.  Then again they seem to have just adored covering everything with layers of fabric - even themselves.*


*SIL, who’s hobby is making clothes, remarked recently that a Victorian costume dress she recently made used 11 yards of fabric - about 5x what her typical dresses take.

When women wore corsets they needed a chemise first, usually linen, then the corset, then a corset cover, then the garment.  But a Victorian dress, with all the ruffles and flounces, uses lots of fabric all by itself. 

jeninco

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #632 on: July 11, 2021, 02:19:38 PM »
…wait, table-clothes were used to hide “provocative” table legs?  Wow, just…wow.

I always wondered why a society that didn’t have washing machines would revel in making themselves more laundry.  Then again they seem to have just adored covering everything with layers of fabric - even themselves.*


*SIL, who’s hobby is making clothes, remarked recently that a Victorian costume dress she recently made used 11 yards of fabric - about 5x what her typical dresses take.

When women wore corsets they needed a chemise first, usually linen, then the corset, then a corset cover, then the garment.  But a Victorian dress, with all the ruffles and flounces, uses lots of fabric all by itself.

To be fair, a number of the interior layers were intended to be laundered so the super-fancy outer layers didn't need to be. So the linen chemise that was the base layer was easy to wash, the stays ("corsets") probably didn't get washed much, and so on, up from there. For funsies, check out Bernadette Banner's YouTube channel.

jeninco

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #633 on: July 11, 2021, 02:40:39 PM »
I wanted to reply to specific parties, but there turned out to be so many that I figured I'd put this as a general response, because I think we've (so far) done a decent job with our two sons (now 17 and 20) as well as with all their friends who passed through our house.

As other commenters have mentioned, we started very early with the idea of consent, sometimes using choices, i.e. since you have to wear a shirt to school, "would you prefer to wear the blue shirt today, or the red one?" We reinforced messages of consent (or non-consent) from other people, and from both parents ("Papa just told you he doesn't want you to head-butt him in the crotch -- would you like to play chase instead, or is this a good time to take a break?").

The older one was interested in girls pretty early, and a good friend of his starting in 6th grade was transgender, so that was a great opening for having conversations about consent, and acceptance, and some of what was coming (culminating in me looking at my kid and saying "look, if the two of you decide you want to get into each others' pants you may have to have a bit more than the usual amount of conversation, but other than that I fail to see how this is relevant to anything at all."). When we drove places, song lyrics were subject to the "object or agent" test -- if they're discussing another person as an object, please skip the rest of the song, because I don't care to listen to it. Arguments/discussions were had, especially about songs that were trendy. (We missed a turn and went 45 minutes out of our way once, because a kid doubled-down 5ish years ago "mom, the song's about transportation options!")

And all along, we leaned hard into treating other people as just as fully human as yourself. And we tried hard to expose our sons to other men who also treat other people (of all genders, and races, etc) as fully human. And to model that behavior ourselves.

Then we moved on to (as I've mentioned elsewhere, or perhaps here) the three C's that have to happen before sex: Conversation (you'd better at least know first and last name, and some other stuff about this person), Enthusiastic Consent (for every act, every time) and protection from unwanted pregnancy and STDs (spelled Condom in our house, obviously, since that's what boys can control). Actual conversation that happened "Mom, I asked her what she liked/wanted and she couldn't answer!" "That means she's not ready in the way that you are, and no sex for you in this instance." Because if you can't both have a conversation about what you both want, then you're not both ready.

Because, look, that's all we're talking about here -- it's not a huge giant mysterious philosophical situation, right? Treat other people as full human beings with just the same agency as you want for yourself, and we're all pretty much there.

As I read this thread, a lot of what I see is guys saying "really? That happens to you -- and all women -- all the time?" as well as "really? You experience XXX (this thing I do, or I never thought about, i.e. men walking up behind you and putting their hands on your shoulders) as a potential threat, and you have to expend mental and emotional energy dealing with it?"  But once y'all have been educated past that hurdle, the solution is pretty easy -- Don't do to other people what they don't want done to them.

And, since I work at home, I can make this point with other teenagers, too -- when a bunch of kids having lunch in my house started pinching each other and squealing, it was easy for me to pass through the kitchen to refill my coffee cup and say "Miles, if Peter is OK with you pinching his ass I have no problem with it, but what I'm hearing doesn't sound like consent. Have you asked him if it's all right?" (Because, I decided raising boys into good men requires re-examining a lot of my assumptions about the world, and jettisoning my own embarrassment sometimes. And once I was there, I figured I'd spread the message as opportunities arose.)

Kris

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #634 on: July 11, 2021, 03:47:25 PM »
I wanted to reply to specific parties, but there turned out to be so many that I figured I'd put this as a general response, because I think we've (so far) done a decent job with our two sons (now 17 and 20) as well as with all their friends who passed through our house.

As other commenters have mentioned, we started very early with the idea of consent, sometimes using choices, i.e. since you have to wear a shirt to school, "would you prefer to wear the blue shirt today, or the red one?" We reinforced messages of consent (or non-consent) from other people, and from both parents ("Papa just told you he doesn't want you to head-butt him in the crotch -- would you like to play chase instead, or is this a good time to take a break?").

The older one was interested in girls pretty early, and a good friend of his starting in 6th grade was transgender, so that was a great opening for having conversations about consent, and acceptance, and some of what was coming (culminating in me looking at my kid and saying "look, if the two of you decide you want to get into each others' pants you may have to have a bit more than the usual amount of conversation, but other than that I fail to see how this is relevant to anything at all."). When we drove places, song lyrics were subject to the "object or agent" test -- if they're discussing another person as an object, please skip the rest of the song, because I don't care to listen to it. Arguments/discussions were had, especially about songs that were trendy. (We missed a turn and went 45 minutes out of our way once, because a kid doubled-down 5ish years ago "mom, the song's about transportation options!")

And all along, we leaned hard into treating other people as just as fully human as yourself. And we tried hard to expose our sons to other men who also treat other people (of all genders, and races, etc) as fully human. And to model that behavior ourselves.

Then we moved on to (as I've mentioned elsewhere, or perhaps here) the three C's that have to happen before sex: Conversation (you'd better at least know first and last name, and some other stuff about this person), Enthusiastic Consent (for every act, every time) and protection from unwanted pregnancy and STDs (spelled Condom in our house, obviously, since that's what boys can control). Actual conversation that happened "Mom, I asked her what she liked/wanted and she couldn't answer!" "That means she's not ready in the way that you are, and no sex for you in this instance." Because if you can't both have a conversation about what you both want, then you're not both ready.

Because, look, that's all we're talking about here -- it's not a huge giant mysterious philosophical situation, right? Treat other people as full human beings with just the same agency as you want for yourself, and we're all pretty much there.

As I read this thread, a lot of what I see is guys saying "really? That happens to you -- and all women -- all the time?" as well as "really? You experience XXX (this thing I do, or I never thought about, i.e. men walking up behind you and putting their hands on your shoulders) as a potential threat, and you have to expend mental and emotional energy dealing with it?"  But once y'all have been educated past that hurdle, the solution is pretty easy -- Don't do to other people what they don't want done to them.

And, since I work at home, I can make this point with other teenagers, too -- when a bunch of kids having lunch in my house started pinching each other and squealing, it was easy for me to pass through the kitchen to refill my coffee cup and say "Miles, if Peter is OK with you pinching his ass I have no problem with it, but what I'm hearing doesn't sound like consent. Have you asked him if it's all right?" (Because, I decided raising boys into good men requires re-examining a lot of my assumptions about the world, and jettisoning my own embarrassment sometimes. And once I was there, I figured I'd spread the message as opportunities arose.)

Awesome post in every way. But I just wanted to add to/amend what you said to the guys in this thread: Once y’all have been educated past the incredulity hurdle, the solution is: 1) don’t do to other people what they don’t want done to them; AND 2) ***Don’t let other men do those things, or even talk about doing those things, without calling them on it in no uncertain terms.***

Many men will ignore, deny, or blow it off when a woman tells them not to, but will actually listen/be embarrassed when another guy tells them it’s not okay. It’s shitty, but it’s true. If you want to be part of the solution instead of the problem, you have to commit to 2 as strongly as you commit to 1.

jeninco

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #635 on: July 11, 2021, 04:33:44 PM »
I wanted to reply to specific parties, but there turned out to be so many that I figured I'd put this as a general response, because I think we've (so far) done a decent job with our two sons (now 17 and 20) as well as with all their friends who passed through our house.

As other commenters have mentioned, we started very early with the idea of consent, sometimes using choices, i.e. since you have to wear a shirt to school, "would you prefer to wear the blue shirt today, or the red one?" We reinforced messages of consent (or non-consent) from other people, and from both parents ("Papa just told you he doesn't want you to head-butt him in the crotch -- would you like to play chase instead, or is this a good time to take a break?").

The older one was interested in girls pretty early, and a good friend of his starting in 6th grade was transgender, so that was a great opening for having conversations about consent, and acceptance, and some of what was coming (culminating in me looking at my kid and saying "look, if the two of you decide you want to get into each others' pants you may have to have a bit more than the usual amount of conversation, but other than that I fail to see how this is relevant to anything at all."). When we drove places, song lyrics were subject to the "object or agent" test -- if they're discussing another person as an object, please skip the rest of the song, because I don't care to listen to it. Arguments/discussions were had, especially about songs that were trendy. (We missed a turn and went 45 minutes out of our way once, because a kid doubled-down 5ish years ago "mom, the song's about transportation options!")

And all along, we leaned hard into treating other people as just as fully human as yourself. And we tried hard to expose our sons to other men who also treat other people (of all genders, and races, etc) as fully human. And to model that behavior ourselves.

Then we moved on to (as I've mentioned elsewhere, or perhaps here) the three C's that have to happen before sex: Conversation (you'd better at least know first and last name, and some other stuff about this person), Enthusiastic Consent (for every act, every time) and protection from unwanted pregnancy and STDs (spelled Condom in our house, obviously, since that's what boys can control). Actual conversation that happened "Mom, I asked her what she liked/wanted and she couldn't answer!" "That means she's not ready in the way that you are, and no sex for you in this instance." Because if you can't both have a conversation about what you both want, then you're not both ready.

Because, look, that's all we're talking about here -- it's not a huge giant mysterious philosophical situation, right? Treat other people as full human beings with just the same agency as you want for yourself, and we're all pretty much there.

As I read this thread, a lot of what I see is guys saying "really? That happens to you -- and all women -- all the time?" as well as "really? You experience XXX (this thing I do, or I never thought about, i.e. men walking up behind you and putting their hands on your shoulders) as a potential threat, and you have to expend mental and emotional energy dealing with it?"  But once y'all have been educated past that hurdle, the solution is pretty easy -- Don't do to other people what they don't want done to them.

And, since I work at home, I can make this point with other teenagers, too -- when a bunch of kids having lunch in my house started pinching each other and squealing, it was easy for me to pass through the kitchen to refill my coffee cup and say "Miles, if Peter is OK with you pinching his ass I have no problem with it, but what I'm hearing doesn't sound like consent. Have you asked him if it's all right?" (Because, I decided raising boys into good men requires re-examining a lot of my assumptions about the world, and jettisoning my own embarrassment sometimes. And once I was there, I figured I'd spread the message as opportunities arose.)

Awesome post in every way. But I just wanted to add to/amend what you said to the guys in this thread: Once y’all have been educated past the incredulity hurdle, the solution is: 1) don’t do to other people what they don’t want done to them; AND 2) ***Don’t let other men do those things, or even talk about doing those things, without calling them on it in no uncertain terms.***

Many men will ignore, deny, or blow it off when a woman tells them not to, but will actually listen/be embarrassed when another guy tells them it’s not okay. It’s shitty, but it’s true. If you want to be part of the solution instead of the problem, you have to commit to 2 as strongly as you commit to 1.

Extremely excellent point, and although I'm not socially adept enough to dictate how the "calling them out part" goes, I'm comfortable reminding them to do it and letting my (much more socially skilled then I) kids figure it out. It's worth reminding all the men (and women, but in this case more the men) in their lives that this is something they need to model, too.

lhamo

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #636 on: July 12, 2021, 10:34:38 AM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era. 

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #637 on: July 12, 2021, 11:07:58 AM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

This is all really, really good.

I'd like to add one more thing.

Men, as you are listening to the women in your lives tell you about these things, a word of advice: Reactions like, "If I ever meet the MF'er who did this to you, I'll kick his fucking ass!" might seem to you to be an appropriate response -- even one that conveys to your wife/girlfriend/whatever that you are on their side and that you will protect them from this stuff. But please consider that a reaction of explosive male violence -- even if it is not directed at the woman in question, even if it is directed at her aggressor -- might not come off as you think it will. A display of male force and physical anger can be frightening, and might even make it harder for her to feel comforted by you. I know that for me, when men have done that in the past, it has mostly been scary and has made me feel less safe rather than more. Like I am "supposed" to feel that his strength is a protection, but in fact all it does is remind me that it could be turned toward me. So maybe don't do that.

Metalcat

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #638 on: July 12, 2021, 11:29:41 AM »
Also, don't try to solve our problems or even react as if there is a discrete solution. Try to wrap your mind around it being a systemic problem, not one that any of us can elect to avoid. We don't have the option of just not having this in our lives, so it can be very, very hurtful when men respond as though there should be a way to live differently.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #639 on: July 12, 2021, 01:00:19 PM »

Awesome post in every way. But I just wanted to add to/amend what you said to the guys in this thread: Once y’all have been educated past the incredulity hurdle, the solution is: 1) don’t do to other people what they don’t want done to them; AND 2) ***Don’t let other men do those things, or even talk about doing those things, without calling them on it in no uncertain terms.***

Many men will ignore, deny, or blow it off when a woman tells them not to, but will actually listen/be embarrassed when another guy tells them it’s not okay. It’s shitty, but it’s true. If you want to be part of the solution instead of the problem, you have to commit to 2 as strongly as you commit to 1.

Not to be negative in any way shape or form, but what if guys don't do this kind of stuff/talk about this kind of stuff around me or it's very rare? I've been told this concept (not in these terms but the general idea) that people feel bad about making disparaging jokes in general around me - (i.e. when people gossip around me about other people they tend to look side-eyed at me and often apologize about saying whatever it was negative they said). I'm not trying to paint myself in some positive light here, it apparently is just the vibe I give off, or it seems to be. The one time I can remember a close family member made a significantly disparaging comment about women around me he immediately stopped (when it was obvious he was on a roll) looked and acted awkward for the entire rest of our ride together without me saying anything. I know you don't know me, but I guess I'm wondering, do you think I am I just missing things that are being said (maybe that are more subtle that I could pay attention to) and I'm oblivious or is there maybe a step 3 if it doesn't happen often around me that would be a good way to be proactive?


Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

For these, again, I don't mean to sound negative, but is this a good idea in general? In my present state right now, I can't see myself ever feeling confident in asking any woman in my life that I wasn't extremely close to - basically only my wife - this kind of thing. I would love to be there for people, but I would be afraid that it cause trauma/feel like I was forcing myself into their situations (even if I said, only if you feel comfortable), etc. I would be more than happy to listen to anything and try to learn, but I am just concerned it would cause more problems than it would help.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #640 on: July 12, 2021, 01:13:56 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

For these, again, I don't mean to sound negative, but is this a good idea in general? In my present state right now, I can't see myself ever feeling confident in asking any woman in my life that I wasn't extremely close to - basically only my wife - this kind of thing. I would love to be there for people, but I would be afraid that it cause trauma/feel like I was forcing myself into their situations (even if I said, only if you feel comfortable), etc. I would be more than happy to listen to anything and try to learn, but I am just concerned it would cause more problems than it would help.

Maybe step 0 then is to cultivate more meaningful relationships with women who are not your wife.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #641 on: July 12, 2021, 01:14:31 PM »

Awesome post in every way. But I just wanted to add to/amend what you said to the guys in this thread: Once y’all have been educated past the incredulity hurdle, the solution is: 1) don’t do to other people what they don’t want done to them; AND 2) ***Don’t let other men do those things, or even talk about doing those things, without calling them on it in no uncertain terms.***

Many men will ignore, deny, or blow it off when a woman tells them not to, but will actually listen/be embarrassed when another guy tells them it’s not okay. It’s shitty, but it’s true. If you want to be part of the solution instead of the problem, you have to commit to 2 as strongly as you commit to 1.

Not to be negative in any way shape or form, but what if guys don't do this kind of stuff/talk about this kind of stuff around me or it's very rare? I've been told this concept (not in these terms but the general idea) that people feel bad about making disparaging jokes in general around me - (i.e. when people gossip around me about other people they tend to look side-eyed at me and often apologize about saying whatever it was negative they said). I'm not trying to paint myself in some positive light here, it apparently is just the vibe I give off, or it seems to be. The one time I can remember a close family member made a significantly disparaging comment about women around me he immediately stopped (when it was obvious he was on a roll) looked and acted awkward for the entire rest of our ride together without me saying anything. I know you don't know me, but I guess I'm wondering, do you think I am I just missing things that are being said (maybe that are more subtle that I could pay attention to) and I'm oblivious or is there maybe a step 3 if it doesn't happen often around me that would be a good way to be proactive?


Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

For these, again, I don't mean to sound negative, but is this a good idea in general? In my present state right now, I can't see myself ever feeling confident in asking any woman in my life that I wasn't extremely close to - basically only my wife - this kind of thing. I would love to be there for people, but I would be afraid that it cause trauma/feel like I was forcing myself into their situations (even if I said, only if you feel comfortable), etc. I would be more than happy to listen to anything and try to learn, but I am just concerned it would cause more problems than it would help.

In that case, there are countless books written by women on the subject.

Basically, there are tons of ways to educate yourself. And maybe once you become more comfortable with the material, you will feel more comfortable talking about it with the women around you. It's the same way I'm very comfortable talking about Indigenous issues, because I've put a ton of effort into educating myself, so I don't have the "oh no, how do I even broach this without being offensive?" kind of reaction. I already know what the issues are from that population's perspective because I've spent hundreds of hours doing courses, reading books, attending talks, volunteering at non-profits, etc, etc.

There are endless opportunities to educate yourself if you want to make this a priority, but it has to be a priority.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #642 on: July 12, 2021, 02:19:08 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

For these, again, I don't mean to sound negative, but is this a good idea in general? In my present state right now, I can't see myself ever feeling confident in asking any woman in my life that I wasn't extremely close to - basically only my wife - this kind of thing. I would love to be there for people, but I would be afraid that it cause trauma/feel like I was forcing myself into their situations (even if I said, only if you feel comfortable), etc. I would be more than happy to listen to anything and try to learn, but I am just concerned it would cause more problems than it would help.

Maybe step 0 then is to cultivate more meaningful relationships with women who are not your wife.

I mean, that could of course be part of it. I'll admit that I have more close male friends than female friends. However, I do have 2 close female friends apart from my wife, where we talk about a really wide variety of topics including serious issues we are having personally, which is why I think the issue is that I just feel like that specific topic, which could have significant trauma tied to it, feels off-limits to me. Of course, I could be wrong, which is kind of why I put my feelings out there to see if I was being paranoid for no reason.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #643 on: July 12, 2021, 02:20:47 PM »

In that case, there are countless books written by women on the subject.

Basically, there are tons of ways to educate yourself. And maybe once you become more comfortable with the material, you will feel more comfortable talking about it with the women around you. It's the same way I'm very comfortable talking about Indigenous issues, because I've put a ton of effort into educating myself, so I don't have the "oh no, how do I even broach this without being offensive?" kind of reaction. I already know what the issues are from that population's perspective because I've spent hundreds of hours doing courses, reading books, attending talks, volunteering at non-profits, etc, etc.

There are endless opportunities to educate yourself if you want to make this a priority, but it has to be a priority.

Hmm, good point. Whether it works to make me feel more at ease or not, reading up on the issue will only help in general.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #644 on: July 12, 2021, 02:39:31 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

For these, again, I don't mean to sound negative, but is this a good idea in general? In my present state right now, I can't see myself ever feeling confident in asking any woman in my life that I wasn't extremely close to - basically only my wife - this kind of thing. I would love to be there for people, but I would be afraid that it cause trauma/feel like I was forcing myself into their situations (even if I said, only if you feel comfortable), etc. I would be more than happy to listen to anything and try to learn, but I am just concerned it would cause more problems than it would help.

Maybe step 0 then is to cultivate more meaningful relationships with women who are not your wife.

I mean, that could of course be part of it. I'll admit that I have more close male friends than female friends. However, I do have 2 close female friends apart from my wife, where we talk about a really wide variety of topics including serious issues we are having personally, which is why I think the issue is that I just feel like that specific topic, which could have significant trauma tied to it, feels off-limits to me. Of course, I could be wrong, which is kind of why I put my feelings out there to see if I was being paranoid for no reason.

It is tricky, because the very people you are trying to understand are in no way obligated to teach you, and it's presumptuous to assume that they should.

This is something that a lot of people struggle with in trying to engage marginalized populations. That's why I said, it takes making it a priority, not just assuming that it should be reasonably easy to access understanding.

See I'm very comfortable broaching the issue of sexual assault, not just because I've been through it myself, but more because I've put in a lot of time in women's shelters.

There are ways to talk about vulnerable things, and it can take a bit to get to know the nuances, but like anything else, it's learnable.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #645 on: July 12, 2021, 03:00:03 PM »
Jon Krakauer has a good book on this topic.   I found it hard to get through because it was a bit disturbing.


https://www.amazon.com/Missoula-Rape-Justice-System-College/dp/0804170568





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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #646 on: July 12, 2021, 04:25:31 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

This is all really, really good.

I'd like to add one more thing.

Men, as you are listening to the women in your lives tell you about these things, a word of advice: Reactions like, "If I ever meet the MF'er who did this to you, I'll kick his fucking ass!" might seem to you to be an appropriate response -- even one that conveys to your wife/girlfriend/whatever that you are on their side and that you will protect them from this stuff. But please consider that a reaction of explosive male violence -- even if it is not directed at the woman in question, even if it is directed at her aggressor -- might not come off as you think it will. A display of male force and physical anger can be frightening, and might even make it harder for her to feel comforted by you. I know that for me, when men have done that in the past, it has mostly been scary and has made me feel less safe rather than more. Like I am "supposed" to feel that his strength is a protection, but in fact all it does is remind me that it could be turned toward me. So maybe don't do that.

Yeah, I didn't even tell my spouse when I got assaulted because I was afraid of just such a reaction.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #647 on: July 12, 2021, 04:29:59 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

This is all really, really good.

I'd like to add one more thing.

Men, as you are listening to the women in your lives tell you about these things, a word of advice: Reactions like, "If I ever meet the MF'er who did this to you, I'll kick his fucking ass!" might seem to you to be an appropriate response -- even one that conveys to your wife/girlfriend/whatever that you are on their side and that you will protect them from this stuff. But please consider that a reaction of explosive male violence -- even if it is not directed at the woman in question, even if it is directed at her aggressor -- might not come off as you think it will. A display of male force and physical anger can be frightening, and might even make it harder for her to feel comforted by you. I know that for me, when men have done that in the past, it has mostly been scary and has made me feel less safe rather than more. Like I am "supposed" to feel that his strength is a protection, but in fact all it does is remind me that it could be turned toward me. So maybe don't do that.

Yeah, I didn't even tell my spouse when I got assaulted because I was afraid of just such a reaction.

Yep. It has happened to me. It is very re-traumatizing. Just the opposite of what I needed.

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #648 on: July 12, 2021, 05:18:17 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

This is all really, really good.

I'd like to add one more thing.

Men, as you are listening to the women in your lives tell you about these things, a word of advice: Reactions like, "If I ever meet the MF'er who did this to you, I'll kick his fucking ass!" might seem to you to be an appropriate response -- even one that conveys to your wife/girlfriend/whatever that you are on their side and that you will protect them from this stuff. But please consider that a reaction of explosive male violence -- even if it is not directed at the woman in question, even if it is directed at her aggressor -- might not come off as you think it will. A display of male force and physical anger can be frightening, and might even make it harder for her to feel comforted by you. I know that for me, when men have done that in the past, it has mostly been scary and has made me feel less safe rather than more. Like I am "supposed" to feel that his strength is a protection, but in fact all it does is remind me that it could be turned toward me. So maybe don't do that.

Yeah, I didn't even tell my spouse when I got assaulted because I was afraid of just such a reaction.

Yep. It has happened to me. It is very re-traumatizing. Just the opposite of what I needed.

For me, the reaction isn't re-traumatizing in a "man being aggressive" kind of way; it's re-traumatizing in a "man trying to claim control" sort of way. It makes me feel not taken seriously when a dude thinks that threatening violence against someone who has hurt me does anything other than serve his own, egotistical emotional needs.

Like, right, sure, you're just going to go "solve" my rape by indulging your masculine fantasy of getting violent revenge. And how is that supposed to make me feel supported and reassured? How is that even about me at all??

To me, it's just men making it about themselves and their emotions that they can't process. Besides, I'm more than capable of committing violent assault myself if that's what I wanted to do. Like really? Having a penis magically makes them more dangerous than I am? On what planet??? If I wanted him injured, he would be injured. He's not walking around happy and healthy because my vagina makes me too weak and feeble to extract revenge.

I don't need my male loved ones, who have no combat skills whatsoever, posturing and swinging around their big metaphorical dicks in an effort to soothe their own discomfort.

It's not reassuring. It would be laughable actually if it wasn't so tragic and insulting.

Kris

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Re: What’s wrong with men?
« Reply #649 on: July 12, 2021, 05:49:43 PM »
Since the "but what can we do?" question has been posed more than a few times on this thread and I can't remember if anyone has replied with this suggestion, I am going to make it.  Apologies if it is repetitive, but I do think it bears repeating:

1)  Ask the women in your lives if they feel comfortable telling you about some of the most significant times they have felt violated/touched without consent.  Listen.  Don't question their memories or how they present the facts.  Don't diminish their feelings. If you feel the need to respond something like "I'm so sorry that happened to you" is fine.   Being present and listening may be enough.

2)  Ask how they think this unwanted contact has impacted how they move in the world.  If you are brave, eventually you may want to ask if it has impacted how the interact with you.  That might be better left for another conversation.  Again, your role is to listen and empathize.  Not to question or challenge them about the facts, their interpretations, or their feelings.

3)   Once you know your interlocutor a bit better, having listened to their stories and understood how it impacted them, ask them if there is anything else you can do to support them better.  Or any way you can modify your behavior to make them more comfortable.

You may need to go through this process several times before you hear all the stories and realize how much your interlocutor was hiding.  They may not even realize it themselves.    It took me many, many years of physical and emotional reactions that often confused/upset my partner to finally realize they were the result of CPTSD, some of which was rooted in an abusive relationship in my late teens.  That abusive partner would most likely never have seen himself as abusive because in his mind once I had consented once/become his girlfriend he could do what he wanted.   It was the '80s, the era of "John Hughes consent."   I'm sure glad my kids are growing up in the Harry Styles era.

This is all really, really good.

I'd like to add one more thing.

Men, as you are listening to the women in your lives tell you about these things, a word of advice: Reactions like, "If I ever meet the MF'er who did this to you, I'll kick his fucking ass!" might seem to you to be an appropriate response -- even one that conveys to your wife/girlfriend/whatever that you are on their side and that you will protect them from this stuff. But please consider that a reaction of explosive male violence -- even if it is not directed at the woman in question, even if it is directed at her aggressor -- might not come off as you think it will. A display of male force and physical anger can be frightening, and might even make it harder for her to feel comforted by you. I know that for me, when men have done that in the past, it has mostly been scary and has made me feel less safe rather than more. Like I am "supposed" to feel that his strength is a protection, but in fact all it does is remind me that it could be turned toward me. So maybe don't do that.

Yeah, I didn't even tell my spouse when I got assaulted because I was afraid of just such a reaction.

Yep. It has happened to me. It is very re-traumatizing. Just the opposite of what I needed.

For me, the reaction isn't re-traumatizing in a "man being aggressive" kind of way; it's re-traumatizing in a "man trying to claim control" sort of way. It makes me feel not taken seriously when a dude thinks that threatening violence against someone who has hurt me does anything other than serve his own, egotistical emotional needs.

Like, right, sure, you're just going to go "solve" my rape by indulging your masculine fantasy of getting violent revenge. And how is that supposed to make me feel supported and reassured? How is that even about me at all??

To me, it's just men making it about themselves and their emotions that they can't process. Besides, I'm more than capable of committing violent assault myself if that's what I wanted to do. Like really? Having a penis magically makes them more dangerous than I am? On what planet??? If I wanted him injured, he would be injured. He's not walking around happy and healthy because my vagina makes me too weak and feeble to extract revenge.

I don't need my male loved ones, who have no combat skills whatsoever, posturing and swinging around their big metaphorical dicks in an effort to soothe their own discomfort.

It's not reassuring. It would be laughable actually if it wasn't so tragic and insulting.

Yes, exactly this. I contemplated elaborating with a post about men making it about themselves, but decided I didn’t have the energy. So thanks for writing what I wanted to write.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!