Author Topic: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?  (Read 37463 times)

wepner

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Sorry, I'm awful at making topic titles.

Anyway the following post (and others) got the overheard at work thread really off topic (again)
here is about where it happens if you need to read all the replies

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/msg463678/#msg463678

I wanted a husband smarter than I am

why?

It was important to me that I respect and admire my long-term partner and I felt this was integral to that. I also wanted someone who had substantially higher earning power and was comfortable being the breadwinner. Whether I'd have made the same choices were my husband hit by a bus tomorrow (I doubt I'd remarry, tbh) is beside the point; those were my priorities the last time I was single, which was at 19.

So the two points that seem to be controversial are the insisting her husband be smarter than her and insisting her husband earn enough money to support her and many children. I said rich earlier because that is way more money than I make but maybe it's not fair.

I mainly care about the first part but both are topics that are pretty interesting.. Saying I want a husband who is smart or even I want a husband who is very smart seems perfectly reasonable to me. But nobody wants to hang out with dummies so why would the other person "settle" for someone less smart than them?

Does anyone see what I mean? I assume everyone wants to find a partner that's honest, but doesn't it sound really weird to say it is important to me that my spouse be more honest than me? Are honesty and intelligence fundamentally different? Does it matter either way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy
Seems ^ like this might be useful...
Anyway maybe nobody cares to comment on this topic any further but I think that this issue is worthy of discussion at least.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:26:07 AM by wepner »

cpa cat

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 08:49:04 AM »
Seems reasonable to me.

She knew what she wanted from her life and she wanted a mate with the characteristics that would maximize that (intelligence and earning potential). At no point did she say that those were the -only- things that mattered. I doubt she would have married any smart, rich dude that came along.

I don't know why she would want to date people who were less likely to result in a life she wanted to live. It's all fine and good to preach equality and political correctness - but those things aren't necessarily going to make a person happy in their relationship.

Furthermore - what if she's of average intelligence and she had said, "I wanted to marry someone of above average intelligence." Is that offensive? Are people of average intelligence not allowed to prefer people "above" them?

What if she's of below average intelligence and recognized that intelligence just isn't her strong suit? Does she have to stick with her own kind, or is she allowed to seek out someone smarter than her who might enable her to have a better life than the one she would have with someone of equal intelligence to her?

Is it only that she's a woman and traditional gender roles are implied? Would anyone be offended if a man said, "My dream girl is way smarter and more ambitious than I am!" Because I've heard guys say that, and I don't think anyone was offended.

I thought I married a guy who was smarter and richer than I was. He thought he was marrying a girl who was smarter and had greater earning potential than him. It's really in the eye of the beholder, to a certain extent.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:50:41 AM by Cpa Cat »

boarder42

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 09:07:54 AM »
IF the person that sparked this thread actually went to school under the guise of meeting a sugar daddy ... i have many issues with this. 

but IF she went to school and met him and is now just trying to justify getting a terrible degree in this manor then i have issues with that too. 

MEETING A RICH GUY WHILE GETTING A USELESS DEGREE IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM YOUR TIME OR YOUR MONEY

cpa cat

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2014, 09:17:01 AM »
MEETING A RICH GUY WHILE GETTING A USELESS DEGREE IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM YOUR TIME OR YOUR MONEY

I disagree.

Now I admit, when I was 20 years old, I met a girl in an English class and she told me she was getting her "MRS" degree. I didn't understand, and I was shocked and horrified when she explained it to me.

But, with some of the perspective that age has brought - I don't see why her use of the educational system was any worse than the person who spent $200k on a couple of Fine Arts (Music) degrees and then became a SAHM. Or the guy who spent six figures on an Anthropology degree and now does IT phone support (after his debt crippled his now-failed marriage to a non-rich person).

GuitarStv

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 09:21:09 AM »
How do you determine someone's intelligence?

Hendrix was a genius on guitar, but probably couldn't integrate for shit.  There are people with masters degrees in accounting who live their lives heavily steeped in debt.  My grandmother was very well read, but her poor farming family needed her at home after grade 8 so she never got to go to high-school.

I can't even fathom how you would accurately determine one person's intelligence in comparison to someone else given that most people have areas of expertise and areas of stupidity.

For me at least, finding someone who treats you nicely, makes you laugh, and will collaborate with you to work through problems should be much more of a concern when looking for a mate.  That said, my wife has proven many times that she's smarter than me . . . what makes it work is that she doesn't point this out in a dickish way.

jka468

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 09:35:29 AM »
Anything is "reasonable" assuming you have the capacity to attract that desired spouse. If a guy says he wants a virgin, neurosurgeon, C-cup, modelesque spouse, and he can get that, then more power to him. Any claims of "slut shaming", "fat shaming", "superficialness" etc. should be met with a scoff and/or a laugh.

I've turned down many potential relationships because the women had certain undersirable traits that others may have easily overlooked or not even cared about, but that's my perogative. And I'm sure that the other side of that coin has happened to me, which is fine by me. Move on and find what you desire, or lower your standards, just don't complain.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:37:06 AM by jka468 »

NumberCruncher

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 09:57:11 AM »
I like the "reasonable" addition to the title of this subject. You can do and expect anything you want, but some expectations will get a lot of judgment. In my mind, it's perfectly reasonable to want to be a stay-at-home parent and look for a partner who is both agreeable and capable to be a breadwinner. As long as expectations are discussed by both partners, more power to you.

Like the OP, I do find issues with the "more intelligent than I am" qualification. In the original posts, IQ and SAT scores were referenced - objective measures of intelligence, even if there is no "one true measure" of intelligence.

Looking at all the related comments on the Overheard at Work thread, they read like "On every first date, I made sure to compare SAT scores. If my date scored the same or below, there would be no second date." and "I went to the school with the highest average IQ, regardless of individual interests or other preferences, so as to increase my potential dating pool." I'm pretty sure this was not the intended message, but that's how it was reading.

I think the "reasonable" line comes when there's some list of requirements, such as "must make $XXX,XXX or more a year," or "must be this tall or taller/shorter." It starts to seem more like a transaction than a relationship.

PloddingInsight

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 10:02:27 AM »
I can't even fathom how you would accurately determine one person's intelligence in comparison to someone else given that most people have areas of expertise and areas of stupidity.

The idea of general intelligence arose from the observation that most of those testable skills and abilities are pretty highly correlated.

But really, the original comment we are discussing was perfectly understandable.  I get the idea you're pretending it confuses you in order to hold the party line.

sheepstache

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 10:07:02 AM »
I mainly care about the first part but both are topics that are pretty interesting.. Saying I want a husband who is smart or even I want a husband who is very smart seems perfectly reasonable to me. But nobody wants to hang out with dummies so why would the other person "settle" for someone less smart than them?

Does anyone see what I mean? I assume everyone wants to find a partner that's honest, but doesn't it sound really weird to say it is important to me that my spouse be more honest

I love that we've turned MMM into a relationship forum btw? I find what people have to say here interesting as opposed to if I went to an actual relationship forum, probably. Although the skewed distribution of personality types vs. the real world is pretty apparent.

I think people want to be similar to their spouses in some ways and different in others. I think the "more" here is just another way of suggesting a difference. Some people are really irritable or easily frustrated by having to explain themselves to someone not quite as quick, so they might want a smarter spouse for that reason. (I don't know that this was serpentstooth's reasoning, it's just a thought. Nor have I read the context from the other thread.)

I've also noticed that people who pride themselves on a particular characteristic might want to be "the x one" in the relationship. If they're particularly handy, they enjoy being the handy one in the relationship. It's not necessarily that they want to feel superior to their partner on the whole, it's just that being looked up to for this particular trait is a role they're comfortable in (see also: their role in the family they grew up in). So I could see a very smart person being comfortable dating less smart folks and not feeling like they're "settling" because they're just used to being smarter than the people around them. Or eta another example: talkers vs. listeners. A talker may understand about themselves that they never shut up but they know that a relationship between two talkers might not work. And it needn't imply a judgment about whether talking or listening is better. A lot of relationships fall into a talker/listener duo without people intending it; it might just be the self-awareness that makes it sound transactional to us.

Then there's the point GuitarStv brings up about different kinds of intelligence, making it hard to say that this is even a comparative characteristic. People might use 'intelligent' as shorthand for abstract reasoning while they themselves are better at absorbing lots of detailed information or something, but, lacking stellar abstract reasoning skills, they perceive that as highly desirable and worthy of respect. And it is nice to feel that your partner is worthy of respect.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:38:36 AM by sheepstache »

tipster350

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 10:17:45 AM »
Mid six figures? Holy heck I had no idea engineers were earning that kind of money. With $500k a year FI is just around the corner.

PloddingInsight

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 10:18:32 AM »
Looking at all the related comments on the Overheard at Work thread, they read like "On every first date, I made sure to compare SAT scores. If my date scored the same or below, there would be no second date." and "I went to the school with the highest average IQ, regardless of individual interests or other preferences, so as to increase my potential dating pool." I'm pretty sure this was not the intended message, but that's how it was reading.

I am trying to figure out a way to say this that doesn't sound condescending.  Please forgive me if I don't succeed.

I'm well into the top 1% of general intelligence.  The commenter we are discussing says she is at or around the 2% mark.  When you are at the extreme end of a psychological/physiological spectrum like that, the desire to be with people like yourself isn't necessarily a superiority or elitism thing -- it can be a weirdness thing.  You are weird and different, and it's comforting to be with other people that are weird and different in the same way.  People who run ultramarathons like to date other ultramarathoners, and it's not because they look down on everyone else.  People who are born filthy rich like to marry other people who were also raised in wealth, and it's not because they care so much about the money itself.  It's about being with a person like yourself.

tipster350

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 10:23:15 AM »
It's not for me to say whether a set of requirements is reasonable, or a method of finding a spouse is acceptable. If two people find each other and are happy with the arrangement and outcome, I am happy for them.

It is sad when I meet people in their 40s and 50s who have had a set of requirements that no one who is willing to date the person has met, but it is up to each of us to learn/adjust/compromise/gain insight as we go along.

wepner

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 10:39:44 AM »
Point of clarification: I didn't insist my husband was rich. He's a software engineer and earns somewhere around $150,000 between base, bonus and freelancing. He makes a salary comparable to many people other software engineers on this forum.

Ok I edited my original post. 150k is rich to me.

NumberCruncher

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 10:43:56 AM »
Looking at all the related comments on the Overheard at Work thread, they read like "On every first date, I made sure to compare SAT scores. If my date scored the same or below, there would be no second date." and "I went to the school with the highest average IQ, regardless of individual interests or other preferences, so as to increase my potential dating pool." I'm pretty sure this was not the intended message, but that's how it was reading.

I am trying to figure out a way to say this that doesn't sound condescending.  Please forgive me if I don't succeed.

I'm well into the top 1% of general intelligence.  The commenter we are discussing says she is at or around the 2% mark.  When you are at the extreme end of a psychological/physiological spectrum like that, the desire to be with people like yourself isn't necessarily a superiority or elitism thing -- it can be a weirdness thing.  You are weird and different, and it's comforting to be with other people that are weird and different in the same way.  People who run ultramarathons like to date other ultramarathoners, and it's not because they look down on everyone else.  People who are born filthy rich like to marry other people who were also raised in wealth, and it's not because they care so much about the money itself.  It's about being with a person like yourself.

Haha, by saying you don't mean to be condescending, it kinda comes off that way ;)

I completely agree intelligence is a reasonable characteristic to look for in a potential mate. I certainly looked for someone intelligent when dating. The issue I see is in saying your partner must be smarter than you, that someone of relatively equivalent intelligence simply wouldn't do. In one of my examples, I used SAT scores. If we assume you got a 2300 on the SATs (newest test has max of 2400), can we agree that it would be ridiculous to reject someone who also scored a 2300, only accepting a 2310 or above?

Assortative mating is normative. Most people marry someone about as clever, attractive, wealthy, religious, etc. as they are. I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone on this forum to say, "frugality is really important to me, and I want someone who shares that goal." Or, "I hike every weekend and I want someone who finds that super awesome and wants to share it with me, instead of someone who thinks that's a miserable alternative to reading on the couch." Or, "I really want to live in the rural area where I grew up, and no matter how lovely a dedicated New Yorker is, it just is a bad match because we want really different things in life." Or, "I'm from a culture where it's normal to have one's parents living at home, and anyone who marries me has to understand they are going to be living with their in-laws until they die."

First off, thanks for sharing the extra details you've shared on here - it sounds like you and your husband make a great couple. :)

I completely agree with your statements here, but they seem to contradict the original statement of "smarter than I am." You say "about as clever, attractive, wealthy, religious," not "more clever, attractive, wealthy, religious."

It's a pretty important distinction, at least apparently to many on these forums. Do you agree? Or are the statements roughly the same to you?




Philociraptor

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 10:45:10 AM »
MEETING A RICH GUY WHILE GETTING A USELESS DEGREE IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM YOUR TIME OR YOUR MONEY

I disagree.

Now I admit, when I was 20 years old, I met a girl in an English class and she told me she was getting her "MRS" degree. I didn't understand, and I was shocked and horrified when she explained it to me.

But, with some of the perspective that age has brought - I don't see why her use of the educational system was any worse than the person who spent $200k on a couple of Fine Arts (Music) degrees and then became a SAHM. Or the guy who spent six figures on an Anthropology degree and now does IT phone support (after his debt crippled his now-failed marriage to a non-rich person).

Have a couple friends from high school who did this, went to the same school out of state, there seems to be a lot of them at BYU from what I've heard from them.

Tallgirl1204

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 10:46:13 AM »
I had a friend a long time ago who broke up with his girlfriend because he felt she wasn't very smart.  He said that he wanted someone who he could talk about "big ideas" with.  (He was an empirically brilliant guy, who was pursuing a Phd in public policy at a good school.)

The thing is, she was otherwise a really good person, an extrovert to balance out his introvert tendencies, with a great sense of fun and adventure, as well as similar spiritual beliefs and ethics.  But I could see the issue-- she would kind of blank out when a conversation got too theoretical. 

They got back together and married soon after, had kids, and are still married. 

I fell out of close touch with them, but I have always wondered how it worked out for him-- does he feel he compromised too much?  Or did he find that the balance in their personalities made up for other incompatibilities?  The fact that they're still married suggests that he did, but their rather conservative belief system would place pressure on them to remain married anyway. 

I don't know how these things ought to play out-- intelligence is only one component of a whole Rubik's cube of elements (including personality, looks, shared interests, life goals, religious belief, time of life) that goes into meeting and mating.  Is it "bad" to put one over the other?

The only thing I would add is that time and chance can change most of these elements-- what happens if the person who was so brilliant, beautiful, strong, etc. has an injury or illness that changes the equation?  Is it o.k. to say "this is not the deal I made" and walk away?   I don't know a good answer to that-- I would say (for myself) "I hope not" but I have not been in that situation, at least not yet-- and yet statistics indicate that sooner or later disability comes to at least one member of every couple.   

Elaine

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 10:53:07 AM »
To answer the original question of what is reasonable to expect in a spouse- I think that depends on the person. Your expectations are reasonable if you find that there are people to choose from, who are interested in you, who meet your desired standards. If however, no one meets your standards (or those who do aren't interested in you), then you're being unreasonable.

The thing that people seem to be getting caught up on, is that serpentstooth had very definite/high standards...IN CERTAIN AREAS. What she has not discussed, are the areas in which she was highly flexible in regards to selecting a mate. I believe that's what separates the reasonable from the unreasonable, and I think that's what's skewing this thread.

Personally, I feel that I had very high standards- however earning potential was not one of them. I wanted a partner who was smart (didn't have to be smarter than me), very attentive, who didn't want kids, who I found very attractive, who I had an excellent sex life with, who was very even keeled (no yelling, no fighting, calm discussion only), who possessed a masculine energy and some stereotypically masculine traits (being able to fix things, handle situations-I don't like hand holding through basic daily struggles). I wanted to be with a fellow thinker and reader, and I wanted someone with a similar worldview.

I was able to get all of these things, because I was willing to date someone who was not established in a career, and who at the time had very little earning potential (basically minimum wage). In other words, I decided what was important to me and what wasn't that important to me, and I made my selection based on that.

There were plenty of willing applicants so I don't think my desires were unreasonable. 

jka468

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 10:53:17 AM »
The only thing I would add is that time and chance can change most of these elements-- what happens if the person who was so brilliant, beautiful, strong, etc. has an injury or illness that changes the equation?  Is it o.k. to say "this is not the deal I made" and walk away?   I don't know a good answer to that-- I would say (for myself) "I hope not" but I have not been in that situation, at least not yet-- and yet statistics indicate that sooner or later disability comes to at least one member of every couple.   

If they change involuntarily or due to something out of their control, then no, it's not ok. Voluntarily, well yes, IMO.

Hadilly

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 11:04:42 AM »
After getting out of a faltering and not great long term relationship with a super smart, well-read, knew about art and music, super successful man, I decided on a few non-negotiable things to look for in a mate: smart, attractive (to me), very interested in me, and nice. That was it.

I ended up with a great guy and one really well suited to me. There is enough intersection in our interests, our intelligence is complementary, and though our books read ratio is probably like 100:1 and my ability to do statistics is nonexistent, we are a wonderful team together.

wepner

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 11:05:56 AM »
Looking at all the related comments on the Overheard at Work thread, they read like "On every first date, I made sure to compare SAT scores. If my date scored the same or below, there would be no second date." and "I went to the school with the highest average IQ, regardless of individual interests or other preferences, so as to increase my potential dating pool." I'm pretty sure this was not the intended message, but that's how it was reading.

I am trying to figure out a way to say this that doesn't sound condescending.  Please forgive me if I don't succeed.

I'm well into the top 1% of general intelligence.  The commenter we are discussing says she is at or around the 2% mark.  When you are at the extreme end of a psychological/physiological spectrum like that, the desire to be with people like yourself isn't necessarily a superiority or elitism thing -- it can be a weirdness thing.  You are weird and different, and it's comforting to be with other people that are weird and different in the same way.  People who run ultramarathons like to date other ultramarathoners, and it's not because they look down on everyone else.  People who are born filthy rich like to marry other people who were also raised in wealth, and it's not because they care so much about the money itself.  It's about being with a person like yourself.

Have you ever met someone and said, "Wow, they are REALLY smart!" That's what I wanted in a husband. That's what I find hot. I found that. I wanted someone who would understand what I'm talking about (in person I'm like a hopped up version of Wikipedia that never shuts up), which is uncommon. My mother finds my...peculiar form of intelligence hard to understand.

Assortative mating is normative. Most people marry someone about as clever, attractive, wealthy, religious, etc. as they are. I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone on this forum to say, "frugality is really important to me, and I want someone who shares that goal." Or, "I hike every weekend and I want someone who finds that super awesome and wants to share it with me, instead of someone who thinks that's a miserable alternative to reading on the couch." Or, "I really want to live in the rural area where I grew up, and no matter how lovely a dedicated New Yorker is, it just is a bad match because we want really different things in life." Or, "I'm from a culture where it's normal to have one's parents living at home, and anyone who marries me has to understand they are going to be living with their in-laws until they die."

I've never met someone and thought they were smarter than me so maybe that's part of the problem right there. But it also seems like you are moving the goalposts. First you specifically said you wanted a husband smarter than you (or you couldn't respect him) now you are saying that REALLY smart is enough.

Edit: number cruncher is better at saying my ideas than me.

PloddingInsight

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 11:07:41 AM »
Looking at all the related comments on the Overheard at Work thread, they read like "On every first date, I made sure to compare SAT scores. If my date scored the same or below, there would be no second date." and "I went to the school with the highest average IQ, regardless of individual interests or other preferences, so as to increase my potential dating pool." I'm pretty sure this was not the intended message, but that's how it was reading.

I am trying to figure out a way to say this that doesn't sound condescending.  Please forgive me if I don't succeed.

I'm well into the top 1% of general intelligence.  The commenter we are discussing says she is at or around the 2% mark.  When you are at the extreme end of a psychological/physiological spectrum like that, the desire to be with people like yourself isn't necessarily a superiority or elitism thing -- it can be a weirdness thing.  You are weird and different, and it's comforting to be with other people that are weird and different in the same way.  People who run ultramarathons like to date other ultramarathoners, and it's not because they look down on everyone else.  People who are born filthy rich like to marry other people who were also raised in wealth, and it's not because they care so much about the money itself.  It's about being with a person like yourself.

Haha, by saying you don't mean to be condescending, it kinda comes off that way ;)
I'm a stereotypical nerd -- high intelligence, poor social skills.  I tried not to offend and apparently I failed.  So sue me.
Quote
I completely agree intelligence is a reasonable characteristic to look for in a potential mate. I certainly looked for someone intelligent when dating. The issue I see is in saying your partner must be smarter than you, that someone of relatively equivalent intelligence simply wouldn't do. In one of my examples, I used SAT scores. If we assume you got a 2300 on the SATs (newest test has max of 2400), can we agree that it would be ridiculous to reject someone who also scored a 2300, only accepting a 2310 or above?

If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable.  I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire.  Although I'm aware there are a lot of blank-slate-theory devotees here who may disagree.

GuitarStv

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 11:19:42 AM »
I can't even fathom how you would accurately determine one person's intelligence in comparison to someone else given that most people have areas of expertise and areas of stupidity.

The idea of general intelligence arose from the observation that most of those testable skills and abilities are pretty highly correlated.

But really, the original comment we are discussing was perfectly understandable.  I get the idea you're pretending it confuses you in order to hold the party line.

You must have me confused with someone else.  I declined the party line, along with call waiting, call display, and call forwarding as they added to my phone bill.

:P

Which general intelligence tests correlate highly with financial responsibility or musical ability?

sheepstache

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 11:24:59 AM »
I think the thing that people might object to looks the same, on the surface, as a reasonable expectation.

If someone is making a list a priori based on what they think they should get, that comes off as a bit creepy. For a number of reasons. Maybe it implies they feel they deserve certain standards. Even the idea that there are standards. That the spouse is a reflection of one's own value, as measured by societal generalizations about what's desirable.

However, by the time one is 19, if one is emotionally intelligent and reasonably self-knowledgeable, one has already had plenty of time to compile a set of likes and dislikes based on authentic reactions. A girl who demands a guy be taller than she is because that's what she's been taught is conventional and desirable strikes us unreasonable and superficial. A girl who genuinely has often found herself attracted to tall men but not short ones and therefore concludes she's more likely to find happiness with a tall dude is basing her guidelines on a real gut feeling, so I think we accept that.

MandalayVA

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 11:26:35 AM »
MEETING A RICH GUY WHILE GETTING A USELESS DEGREE IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM YOUR TIME OR YOUR MONEY

I disagree.

Now I admit, when I was 20 years old, I met a girl in an English class and she told me she was getting her "MRS" degree. I didn't understand, and I was shocked and horrified when she explained it to me.

But, with some of the perspective that age has brought - I don't see why her use of the educational system was any worse than the person who spent $200k on a couple of Fine Arts (Music) degrees and then became a SAHM. Or the guy who spent six figures on an Anthropology degree and now does IT phone support (after his debt crippled his now-failed marriage to a non-rich person).

Have a couple friends from high school who did this, went to the same school out of state, there seems to be a lot of them at BYU from what I've heard from them.

Ah, yes, the species known as "Molly Mormons."  It is the rare female who goes to BYU for an education.  She is there for one reason and one reason only--to snag a husband, preferably one who's finished his mission, which is the majority of male students.  I actually applied to BYU in the early eighties (it had a good English department and was cheap).  I got flown out there and it remains one of the creepiest places I've ever been.  As you might have guessed, I'm not a Mormon.  :D

NumberCruncher

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 11:32:16 AM »
Edit: number cruncher is better at saying my ideas than me.

:D

Edit: and it looks like sheepstache has said what I wanted to say better as well!

Haha, by saying you don't mean to be condescending, it kinda comes off that way ;)
I'm a stereotypical nerd -- high intelligence, poor social skills.  I tried not to offend and apparently I failed.  So sue me.

No offense taken, just making an interesting (to me, at least) note - thus the winky face.  :)  As tone is really hard to read sometimes online, I try to use smiley faces and the like to help.

Quote
I completely agree intelligence is a reasonable characteristic to look for in a potential mate. I certainly looked for someone intelligent when dating. The issue I see is in saying your partner must be smarter than you, that someone of relatively equivalent intelligence simply wouldn't do. In one of my examples, I used SAT scores. If we assume you got a 2300 on the SATs (newest test has max of 2400), can we agree that it would be ridiculous to reject someone who also scored a 2300, only accepting a 2310 or above?

Quote
If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable.  I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire.  Although I'm aware there are a lot of blank-slate-theory devotees here who may disagree.

Ah, okay. Yeah, I would have to disagree.

As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

I find issue with mandating a partner be more intelligent than you, but I find more issue in saying it's okay for women but not for men. If it would be weird one way, it's probably weird both ways. There are certainly preference trends that differ between men and women, sure, but that's a different subject.

Annamal

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 11:49:49 AM »
I think by and large everyone has a rough outline of the kind of person that they are looking for but I also think "smart" and "smarter" are nebulous concepts and that income earning ability can be a very transitory thing.

I haven't even begun to make the attempt to wade through my partner's thesis (we discussed it a lot while he was writing it) and while he understands coding (and can even write a certain amount) he wouldn't be able to sit down and design a functional datawarehouse.

I want someone who can be partner and I feel lucky to have that.

cpa cat

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2014, 12:04:16 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

NumberCruncher

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2014, 12:15:33 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Of course there are different definitions, and that's great. Otherwise we'd all be fighting over the same people. :) I think he's awesome, and he thinks I'm awesome, but that doesn't seem relevant.

The comment before was that "If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire," in reference to intelligence. This seems to state that (1) intelligence means respect/admiration (2) it would not be reasonable to expect higher intelligence in a female partner.

The conclusion, to me at least, is that women should not be looked up to or admired in relationships, at least not as much as men. This bothers me.

jka468

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2014, 12:38:05 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Of course there are different definitions, and that's great. Otherwise we'd all be fighting over the same people. :) I think he's awesome, and he thinks I'm awesome, but that doesn't seem relevant.

The comment before was that "If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire," in reference to intelligence. This seems to state that (1) intelligence means respect/admiration (2) it would not be reasonable to expect higher intelligence in a female partner.

The conclusion, to me at least, is that women should not be looked up to or admired in relationships, at least not as much as men. This bothers me.

I don't think it's farfetched to state that many women desire to "look-up to" their man in a variety of ways; and those ways will differ from relationship to relationship (social status, physical stature, intelligence, handiness, leadership, etc.). I think this is what PI was getting at, and "admire" was the wrong choice of words.

OTOH, coming as a man, I don't think there is a very strong desire in men to "look-up to" their women in the same way. Most men want to admire their women and obtain a certain respect for them, but not necessarily look-up to them. The semantics are similar, but there are subtle, profound differences.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:40:41 PM by jka468 »

PloddingInsight

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2014, 12:44:08 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Of course there are different definitions, and that's great. Otherwise we'd all be fighting over the same people. :) I think he's awesome, and he thinks I'm awesome, but that doesn't seem relevant.

The comment before was that "If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire," in reference to intelligence. This seems to state that (1) intelligence means respect/admiration (2) it would not be reasonable to expect higher intelligence in a female partner.

The conclusion, to me at least, is that women should not be looked up to or admired in relationships, at least not as much as men. This bothers me.

I don't think anyone was commenting on who "should" be looked up to or admired. 

For my part, I'm declining to join in the criticism of a woman who wants to find someone she looks up to and admires, in part because I have heard that it is common for women to feel that way.  I'm making an allowance for the difference. 

Not that I'd be particularly critical if a guy felt that way, but it would certainly be more surprising.  My comment was worded so that it seemed to imply I would find the same thing unreasonable in a man.  I didn't mean to imply that.

Another nuance occurs to me now:  Many men (and women) probably desire that their spouse be better than them at something they are not too good at.  This is a natural desire for complementarity.  But the desire for a spouse that is noticably better than you at the things you are very good at -- that is a bit different.  That is where I appeal to gender differences in an effort to understand.  It's not that it isn't a positive thing.  For me personally, getting my ass handed to me by a woman, in an intellectual debate, is definitely a slight turn-on.  But I certainly wouldn't see intelligence equal or slightly below mine to be a negative.


iris lily

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2014, 12:47:22 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Yep. I think DH is amazing in some areas that others don't value at all. It's all about that "values" thing that the boring oldsters preach when you look for a mate. So dull. So un-love like. So important.

jka468

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2014, 12:51:00 PM »
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Of course there are different definitions, and that's great. Otherwise we'd all be fighting over the same people. :) I think he's awesome, and he thinks I'm awesome, but that doesn't seem relevant.

The comment before was that "If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire," in reference to intelligence. This seems to state that (1) intelligence means respect/admiration (2) it would not be reasonable to expect higher intelligence in a female partner.

The conclusion, to me at least, is that women should not be looked up to or admired in relationships, at least not as much as men. This bothers me.

I don't think it's farfetched to state that many women desire to "look-up to" their man in a variety of ways; and those ways will differ from relationship to relationship. I think this is what PI was getting at.

OTOH, coming as a man, I don't think there is a very strong desire in men to "look-up to" their women in the same way. Most men want to admire their women and obtain a certain respect for them, but not necessarily look-up to them.

I want to (and do) respect my spouse (as I hope he does me), but the "look up to" phrase sort of rings of a more daddy/daughter than equal partner role. Yuck. There may be women out there who are looking for that kind of thing, but I don't know them.

I think it's rather weird that your head went there, as I didn't even think of that type of relationship.

I'd phrase it more as a captain/first-mate dynamic that many women seek.

mak1277

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2014, 12:52:49 PM »
Why does anyone care what *someone else* looks for in a mate?

This is like saying it's wrong for someone to prefer vanilla to chocolate.  If I say that I only want a mate that's smarter than me, or hotter than me, or nicer than me (or dumber, uglier & meaner), that's entirely my prerogative.  Why would I care what anyone else wants in a mate? 

Or is it just because we're all bored at work and would rather argue nonsense online?  If that's your excuse, I forgive you :-)

iris lily

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2014, 12:54:42 PM »
MEETING A RICH GUY WHILE GETTING A USELESS DEGREE IS NOT A GOOD USE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM YOUR TIME OR YOUR MONEY

I disagree.

Now I admit, when I was 20 years old, I met a girl in an English class and she told me she was getting her "MRS" degree. I didn't understand, and I was shocked and horrified when she explained it to me.

But, with some of the perspective that age has brought - I don't see why her use of the educational system was any worse than the person who spent $200k on a couple of Fine Arts (Music) degrees and then became a SAHM. Or the guy who spent six figures on an Anthropology degree and now does IT phone support (after his debt crippled his now-failed marriage to a non-rich person).

Have a couple friends from high school who did this, went to the same school out of state, there seems to be a lot of them at BYU from what I've heard from them.

OM freaking G, I just wrote a post about the MRS. degree of someone who went to BYU, wrote it on another board entirely. I won't tell you where that was. :)   But it was clear that this MRS. degree was this young woman's goal. She left college one semester from graduating in order to chase down her intended in another city where the guy got a job. She had to cement the engagement deal since it hadn't come off while she was in Provo. And frankly, I don't think that marriage is working out so well, I give it 2 more years max.

cpa cat

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2014, 01:02:31 PM »
OM freaking G, I just wrote a post about the MRS. degree of someone who went to BYU, wrote it on another board entirely. I won't tell you where that was. :)   But it was clear that this MRS. degree was this young woman's goal. She left college one semester from graduating in order to chase down her intended in another city where the guy got a job. She had to cement the engagement deal since it hadn't come off while she was in Provo. And frankly, I don't think that marriage is working out so well, I give it 2 more years max.

I didn't go to BYU. But this girl was from out of state. She had chosen this particular university due to a combination of Conservative state, affordability, and sorority. Her mother and aunts had all been members of this particular sorority, so it was of the utmost importance that her university have a strong chapter. Also - for the record - it was THE BEST sorority for the MRS degree. There was a whole family tradition of MRS degrees in her background.

It was all vaguely creepy and foreign to me.

Ok - at the time it was super creepy and foreign. I honestly don't know what's happened to me that I now consider it only vaguely creepy and foreign.

iris lily

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2014, 03:53:39 PM »

It was all vaguely creepy and foreign to me.

Ok - at the time it was super creepy and foreign. I honestly don't know what's happened to me that I now consider it only vaguely creepy and foreign.

I am a lot older than you are, but I've had exactly the same experience. Contrary to popular belief plenty of us who went to college in the 1970's were career oriented and were feminists. I didn't know people who went to college, joined a sorority, and got married to their college boyfriend from undergrad school. I cannot think of one person who did that. But then, I didn't take a traditional college path and I attended commuter colleges for a while so I didn't know a lot of people in the traditional college campus life.

That said, back in the '70's that whole MRS degree WAS super creepy. But now that I've mellowed I can see that other women may have different goals because they are other women. They are not me.    :)  I just want them to be responsible in raising their children, and to be smart in choosing a husband who will nurture his family.

I guess the thing that really makes me crazy these days are women who have a stupid, vague idea that the man they choose will support their family but yet their choose men so badly that it is all f*cked up.


GardenFun

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2014, 04:44:56 PM »
I think my husband is hot, and most women think he's a total ass.  Works for me because it keeps them away.  ;-)  All assness aside, he is the best husband for me because we have an insane amount in common and he respects my opinion. 

SisterX

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2014, 04:53:53 PM »

I think it's rather weird that your head went there, as I didn't even think of that type of relationship.

I'd phrase it more as a captain/first-mate dynamic that many women seek.

Please, mansplain to us all some more what we ladies look for in relationships.  Don't, you know, bother reading what actual women have been saying we look for in relationships, which is a partnership.  That's just silly.
As a woman, I didn't look for someone I could look up to or admire. I looked for someone that shared my values and was just generally awesome. I see relationships as partnerships of equals. That doesn't mean you have to split household tasks down the middle or can't admit to differences in abilities - just that you work together towards common goals. There shouldn't be one partner who is put on a pedestal.

A pedestal of awesomeness?

Though I admire my husband for his general awesomeness, there have been some women who thought he was a douche.

It just so happens that we all have different definitions of "awesomeness."

Of course there are different definitions, and that's great. Otherwise we'd all be fighting over the same people. :) I think he's awesome, and he thinks I'm awesome, but that doesn't seem relevant.

The comment before was that "If you're a woman, I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't consider it controversial that women tend to want someone they look up to and/or admire," in reference to intelligence. This seems to state that (1) intelligence means respect/admiration (2) it would not be reasonable to expect higher intelligence in a female partner.

The conclusion, to me at least, is that women should not be looked up to or admired in relationships, at least not as much as men. This bothers me.

PloddingInsight already said on another thread that he thinks women don't reach the heights of intelligence which men do.  (To be fair, nor the lows.)  So, how can any man truly look up to women when they'll never be as smart as the smartest man?  Of which group he's told us he's part of....

HappierAtHome

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2014, 05:55:22 PM »

I think it's rather weird that your head went there, as I didn't even think of that type of relationship.

I'd phrase it more as a captain/first-mate dynamic that many women seek.
Same thing as both imply that a woman would want a subordinate role in the relationship.  I believe most women, and probably most men, would rather be co-captains in their relationship with equal authority.

I agree Spartana - who wants their partner to be in charge of them?? Not me.

I read this thread and asked my BF if he thought one of us was the captain and the other one was the first mate. He thought about it for a second and said "yeah, you're definitely the captain. I like that you're a natural leader". So not all men feel a desperate need to be the head of their household / treat their wife like a child.

(I'd actually argue that we're co-captains, but whatever - the BF acknowledged that he has just as much input into decisions as I do, but says I 'lead' our shared life - probably true, I do a lot of the planning, facilitate our discussions about our future, etc).

tracylayton

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2014, 06:01:33 PM »
Reasonable to expect honesty and loyalty. Everything else is a bonus.

JustTrying

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2014, 07:16:46 PM »
Shrug.

In college, I got really upset with my best friend because she told me that she wanted to marry a guy who played guitar. I (a guitar player) told her that it was ridiculous to expect her spouse to play guitar when she can't. She told me that it would be her spouse, and she could wish for whatever she liked. She's now happily married to a man who plays guitar. :)

I think the OP's comments were off-putting, but what I think doesn't really matter. She's happily married to someone who is okay with her ideals.

The Borgs

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2014, 07:34:20 PM »
It's funny to think about this from my own perspective. When I met my husband online (we've been together 11 years, married nearly 8), I very quickly decided he was the man for me, since he seemed intelligent, had a good sense of humour and we seemed to be able to get along. I decided that long before I knew what he looked like, what he did or what his earning potential was.

With time I learned that he is indeed intelligent, far more so than me in some areas and in those areas I tend to defer to his opinion. In contrast, I'm far more practical and experienced in other areas, so he defers to my opinion there. We acknowledge each others strengths and allow the other person to make decisions in areas where they are strong.

Funnily enough, a few years back his mum dropped off some of his old high school things. When I read his report cards I got a real surprise. Turns out he wasn't keen on school, so simply didn't put much effort in there. By contrast I was an A+ student. In any case, we are both nerds. In employment however, due to some choices then some issues outside of our control, my husband has always been employed in well paying work, I've been unemployed on and off, but when employed it has been in low paying work.

I think it's entirely reasonable to want an intelligent spouse (my first husband wasn't all that intelligent, conversations and life decisions were difficult) just as it's reasonable to want them to be a certain religion (or no religion), have similar views on children (or indeed no children) and like some of the same things. It's up to each individual though how you define that "intelligence".


Cressida

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2014, 09:38:51 PM »
a captain/first-mate dynamic that many women seek

many women desire to "look-up to" their man in a variety of ways

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. I know you really want it to be true, but try to distinguish your wants from reality.

Ynari

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2014, 11:53:27 PM »
I find it important to admire my SO...  but I find it pretty easy to admire most people. Current SO is super into science (physics). I love it! My ex was really extroverted and always nice to people - I really looked up to that. Another guy had the BEST HUGS EVER. Maybe I didn't reach high on the tree for that one, but if I can't find something awesome about a person, why would I date them? Or be friends with them?

Current SO isn't by-the-scores smarter than me. But he's a nerd. I love nerds. Everyone I've ever dated or had a crush on was a nerd (math nerds, history nerd [that was just once I swear], theater nerd, philosophy nerd, international culture and travel nerd, science nerd...). I use the term ambiguously because all I really mean is that I love somebody who loves something and is good at it. Somebody who's passionate, intelligent, and skilled in the thing they do.

What ended up being more important to me, though I didn't plan for it, was the masculine/feminine (NB: These terms are used to be concise, with acknowledgement that they are imperfect and sexist) aspects of my relationship. This post is about relationships in the Hunger Games but actually describes what I felt pretty thoroughly. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/12/02/compulsory-monogamy-in-the-hunger-games-catching-fire/

I found myself loving two people I admire. But one relationship put me into a perpetual stereotypically "masculine" role. At first I enjoyed this, as I am a natural leader and have very "masculine" personality traits. But the relationship forced me a little beyond my comfort zone, and I grew tired of it.

Current SO is very stereotypically "masculine" in a way that allows me to be "feminine" without being self conscious, but more importantly I just don't feel a pressure to be one or the other. I just feel like me.

But, again, I never "expected" masculinity from my SO. It just turned out that my successful relationship requires that I not be forced to overuse traits that I find exhausting. Which means that sometimes, some people work better as friends than SOs. And others I choose to have no friendship with, as I find all interactions exhausting. No one is under any obligations to be friends, SOs, etc., with people they don't like.

galliver

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2014, 12:10:18 AM »
I can't even fathom how you would accurately determine one person's intelligence in comparison to someone else given that most people have areas of expertise and areas of stupidity.

I think this hits the nail on the head. We are focusing overmuch on the quantification and/or the ability to quantify intelligence/smarts. What matters more in a relationship, if you are looking for it, is FEELING that your partner is smarter. serpentstooth said it herself, "It's feeling like, wow, that person is amazingly smart!" when you meet/talk to them. And that doesn't mean they're standing in the middle of the room being a human encyclopedia and showing off. It's much, much more subtle than that, in how they speak, the kinds of discussions they get engaged in, and how they respond to new information.

I also actually agree *gasp* with PloddingInsight about "weirdness" and seeking out people like you, who you can relate to.

...but I also agree with SisterX (thanks for saying what I was thinking, but snarkier. :D)

I think it's rather weird that your head went there, as I didn't even think of that type of relationship.

I'd phrase it more as a captain/first-mate dynamic that many women seek.

Please, mansplain to us all some more what we ladies look for in relationships.  Don't, you know, bother reading what actual women have been saying we look for in relationships, which is a partnership.  That's just silly.

homehandymum

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2014, 12:11:42 AM »
OMFG, is this really a whole thread dedicated to explaining to serpentstooth that she should have been more "equal opportunities" in her mate selection?

For reals?

People can have whatever criteria they like.  You can specify you want a 4-foot-tall high-wire acrobat who cooks chocolate gateux in the weekends, if you want.  Everyone gets to name their own deal-breakers.  We all get to say "actually, you are not what I am looking for". And we do not have to justify it.  Ever. 

The consequences of someone's criteria are their own.  And they can be as 'unreasonable' as they want.  They even get to change their minds whenever they want.

It is completely irrelevant to say "most circus performers I know prefer to date other circus performers", or "It's really unreasonable to restrict it to people who are 4ft tall", or "I know plenty of people with successful relationships with people of the same height as them".

FFS

PloddingInsight

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2014, 06:03:50 AM »
PloddingInsight already said on another thread that he thinks women don't reach the heights of intelligence which men do.  (To be fair, nor the lows.)  So, how can any man truly look up to women when they'll never be as smart as the smartest man?  Of which group he's told us he's part of....

The first rule of successful dialogue is to be able to restate your opponent's views in a way he or she would agree with.

Guess what? You failed!

GuitarStv

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2014, 06:18:25 AM »
Pot, kettle.

NumberCruncher

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2014, 06:44:00 AM »
OMFG, is this really a whole thread dedicated to explaining to serpentstooth that she should have been more "equal opportunities" in her mate selection?

For reals?


I hope not! Though my posts probably didn't help in that perception...

I was looking at it more like "What does society think are reasonable expectations to have in a relationship?" Society would tend to call someone who married a billionaire because of his money a "gold digger," for example, or that a guy who insists on only dating women with DDs  a "pig." On the other hand, it's relatively normal to let these sorts of factors influence dating decisions, as opposed to being set rules.

"Socially Acceptable Statements":
I am attracted to intelligence
I like large breasts
I like tall men

"Socially Unacceptable Statements":
I only date people who are smarter than me
I only date women who are DDs 
I only date men who are 6'2" or taller


Quote
People can have whatever criteria they like.  You can specify you want a 4-foot-tall high-wire acrobat who cooks chocolate gateux in the weekends, if you want.  Everyone gets to name their own deal-breakers.  We all get to say "actually, you are not what I am looking for". And we do not have to justify it.  Ever. 

The consequences of someone's criteria are their own.  And they can be as 'unreasonable' as they want.  They even get to change their minds whenever they want.


Completely true!

Quote
It is completely irrelevant to say "most circus performers I know prefer to date other circus performers", or "It's really unreasonable to restrict it to people who are 4ft tall", or "I know plenty of people with successful relationships with people of the same height as them".

FFS

I see it more as seeking opinions on a subject, as we might a car or something "is this a reasonable car to buy?" The difference here is serpentstooth never asked for an opinion, and we kinda made it about her relationship, which isn't nice.

Sorry, Serpentstooth!

mak1277

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Re: What traits/characteristics are "reasonable" to expect from a spouse?
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2014, 07:12:25 AM »

I was looking at it more like "What does society think are reasonable expectations to have in a relationship?" Society would tend to call someone who married a billionaire because of his money a "gold digger," for example, or that a guy who insists on only dating women with DDs  a "pig." On the other hand, it's relatively normal to let these sorts of factors influence dating decisions, as opposed to being set rules.

"Socially Acceptable Statements":
I am attracted to intelligence
I like large breasts
I like tall men

"Socially Unacceptable Statements":
I only date people who are smarter than me
I only date women who are DDs 
I only date men who are 6'2" or taller

So one of the main points of this entire blog is to challenge the norms about consumer culture.  Why are we (the royal we) so quick and happy to challenge those norms, but we don't accept someone who challenges other norms?  Who cares what is "socially acceptable", as long as you're not hurting anyone by taking a position?  I see nothing at all wrong with any of the three "socially unacceptable statements" you listed. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!