Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 498433 times)

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2150 on: February 17, 2017, 04:39:19 PM »
The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more important grievances to worry about.

Meh. I don't even really disagree. It's not like I was claiming THIS, of all things, is the reason to impeach or whatever. I do object to them personally profiting from these forays, however, and related things like having the DOD rent out space in Trump tower, etc. Also, he has gone on three vacations in three weeks, which is intrinsically excessive and hypocritical, given his past comments on Obama. I don't think any of the above is necessarily illegal, just highly unethical.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2151 on: February 17, 2017, 04:47:41 PM »
The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more important grievances to worry about.

Meh. I don't even really disagree. It's not like I was claiming THIS, of all things, is the reason to impeach or whatever. I do object to them personally profiting from these forays, however, and related things like having the DOD rent out space in Trump tower, etc. Also, he has gone on three vacations in three weeks, which is intrinsically excessive and hypocritical, given his past comments on Obama. I don't think any of the above is necessarily illegal, just highly unethical.

I agree.

Unfortunately, these are such small issues next to the MASSIVE issues in his presidency that this is just an infuriating irritant, much like a family of rich, entitled mosquitoes buzzing around our ears.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2152 on: February 17, 2017, 09:23:45 PM »
I'm sure some of you are familiar with the story of the Vox reporter who went to Kentucky and found many people who rely on Obamacare and voted for Trump. I was listening to a short podcast about it today. Here's an exact quote from one of these people:

"All Obamacare was, was, everybody's giving Obama our money, our hard-earned money, just so that way he can take a five-million-dollar vacation to the Bahamas instead of giving our military the weapons and the stuff they needed."

This is why someone invented the phrase "I don't know where to start."

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2153 on: February 17, 2017, 09:25:30 PM »

The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more
right?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2154 on: February 17, 2017, 09:31:56 PM »
I'm sure some of you are familiar with the story of the Vox reporter who went to Kentucky and found many people who rely on Obamacare and voted for Trump. I was listening to a short podcast about it today. Here's an exact quote from one of these people:

"All Obamacare was, was, everybody's giving Obama our money, our hard-earned money, just so that way he can take a five-million-dollar vacation to the Bahamas instead of giving our military the weapons and the stuff they needed."

This is why someone invented the phrase "I don't know where to start."
Also, the phrase "Not even wrong", as popularized by (I think) Wolfgang Pauli

calimom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2155 on: February 17, 2017, 10:29:08 PM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.
Meh. This is several different arguments wrapped up in one. I'm fine with some of them, such as the 'jet setting lifestyle.' This has been his lifestyle literally his entire life. I don't expect him to change significantly because he is the president - that I think would be unfair. I didn't expect Bush to not spend time in Texas or Obama to not go golfing in Hawaii, even though it would have not doubt been cheaper if they had stayed in Washington watching TV on the weekends.

Wow Mouse, you are getting to be just about as good at this as POTUS :)
Well if one wishes to discuss greed and graft and stealing from the government, that is fine, but this was not how the question was phrased, nor the main point of the article covered. I don't find paying for protection of the POTUS to be a great burden upon the country.

The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more important grievances to worry about.

Does anyone remember the uproar that Michelle Obama's trip created in 2010? When Republican "taxpayers" fainted over the less then $500,000 cost of travel and security? When they felt it would bankrupt the country? When she and her family were received as goodwill ambassadors?

Conversely, does anyone remember the interview DJT had with Leslie Stahl of "60 Minutes" a week or so after the election? When said DJT claimed to only take a dollar per year as salary because of you, fiscal responsibility and all.

So, we (as taxpayers) pay enormous amounts to fly around and protect the Trump purse-selleing and hotel-promoting brand about the planet, and this is perfectly acceptable, yes/

KBecks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2156 on: February 18, 2017, 06:33:42 AM »
It's normal that each side complains about the other sides vacations and travel.  This has been going on for decades.  Republicans will say that Obama spent a hell of a lot of time playing golf in Hawaii, and Democrats will complain about the Trump family's travel.   There's nothing new here. 


gaja

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2157 on: February 18, 2017, 07:02:08 AM »

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2158 on: February 18, 2017, 07:54:26 AM »
In other news, Trump claims that the media are the enemy of the people.    Echos of communism!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39015559

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2159 on: February 18, 2017, 08:35:16 AM »
It's normal that each side complains about the other sides vacations and travel.  This has been going on for decades.  Republicans will say that Obama spent a hell of a lot of time playing golf in Hawaii, and Democrats will complain about the Trump family's travel.   There's nothing new here.

Yeah, remember when Obama criticized the amount of vacation Bush took and then proceeded to take more?  That was fantastically hypocritically.  Literally, as in fantasy.

Trump, on the other hand...

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2160 on: February 18, 2017, 09:52:25 AM »
So... republicans have the Congress and the Presidency... shouldn't one impact of this be some fuckin' tax cuts? Where are my tax cuts. They always talk about tax cuts. Can we have some tax cuts?

I'm fine with corporate tax cuts too.

And no, Trump saying he is going to do something "great" on taxes doesn't count. Legislation proposed and passed counts though. Hopefully retroactive to to this year.

If the republicans were smart they'd make the tax cuts retroactive to this year so everyone gets a nice rebate cheque next year in time for the mid-terms.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2161 on: February 18, 2017, 11:50:43 AM »
It's normal that each side complains about the other sides vacations and travel.  This has been going on for decades.  Republicans will say that Obama spent a hell of a lot of time playing golf in Hawaii, and Democrats will complain about the Trump family's travel.   There's nothing new here.

Yeah, remember when Obama criticized the amount of vacation Bush took and then proceeded to take more?  That was fantastically hypocritically.  Literally, as in fantasy.

Trump, on the other hand...

See now this is my problem with those who support Trump, and also a good example of the (apparent) fact that you have to lie to yourself to find it acceptable to continue that support. I get it, this is far from the biggest scandal ever (even within his own month-old administration!), but the linked article clearly shows that his level of spending (relative only to the movements of himself and his family) is massively unprecedented, as is the fact that his family is personally profiting to the tune of millions of dollars off of that spending.

An honest supporter would say something like "yeah, I don't like that he does that, it's pretty shady, probably unethical, and admittedly worse than even Obama was acting with his vacations, but it's also not that important in the grand scheme of all of the good he's doing." I mean, I obviously disagree with that statement as well, but at least it shows some willingness to accept that the Orange one has some flaws that his predecessors did not. Instead we just get more "bla bla bla Obama/Hillary were just as bad, bla bla bla." This, Trump supporters, is why the rest of us have a hard time taking you seriously.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2162 on: February 18, 2017, 12:53:06 PM »
So... republicans have the Congress and the Presidency... shouldn't one impact of this be some fuckin' tax cuts? Where are my tax cuts. They always talk about tax cuts. Can we have some tax cuts?

I'm fine with corporate tax cuts too.

And no, Trump saying he is going to do something "great" on taxes doesn't count. Legislation proposed and passed counts though. Hopefully retroactive to to this year.

If the republicans were smart they'd make the tax cuts retroactive to this year so everyone gets a nice rebate cheque next year in time for the mid-terms.
It will be interesting to see what the GOP proposes with their first budget under DJT. He's obviously pushing hard for a combination of massive tax cuts with a huge infrastructure bill, but there are enough fiscal hawks within the party that this could become a giant intraparty poo-fight.

Personally I expect to see both tax cuts and a big jump in infrastructure and military spending. My big question is how long the party will be able to hold these massive deficits up without fracturing the party.

Abe

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2163 on: February 18, 2017, 02:03:59 PM »
It seems the game plan is:
Step 1: yuuge tax cuts
Step 2: increase defense spending to defeat ISIS, ICE funding to defeat illegal immigrants
Step 3: blame sad democrats (and lying media) for deficits that libertarians point out
Step 4: defund government agencies that regulate stuff
Step 5: win mid-terms because now we are safe

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2164 on: February 18, 2017, 02:19:27 PM »
It seems the game plan is:
Step 1: yuuge tax cuts
Step 2: increase defense spending to defeat ISIS, ICE funding to defeat illegal immigrants
Step 3: blame sad democrats (and lying media) for deficits that libertarians point out
Step 4: defund government agencies that regulate stuff
Step 5: win mid-terms because now we are safe
Probably not far off, but you forgot:
Step 6: suffer countless strings of environmental disasters because no one was regulating
Step 7: economy tanks when super-bubble pops from financial sector taking ridiculous risks while no one was watching
Step 8: enter new quagmire because super-beefed up military needs to be used, right?
Step 9: corruption on a new scale for America result from undisclosed conflict of interests.

Actually, i'm not sure the exact order of 6, 7, 8, & 9 but I"m pretty sure all will come to pass in one form or another over the next 4 years.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2165 on: February 18, 2017, 02:40:41 PM »
It's normal that each side complains about the other sides vacations and travel.  This has been going on for decades.  Republicans will say that Obama spent a hell of a lot of time playing golf in Hawaii, and Democrats will complain about the Trump family's travel.   There's nothing new here.

Yeah, remember when Obama criticized the amount of vacation Bush took and then proceeded to take more?  That was fantastically hypocritically.  Literally, as in fantasy.

Trump, on the other hand...

See now this is my problem with those who support Trump, and also a good example of the (apparent) fact that you have to lie to yourself to find it acceptable to continue that support. I get it, this is far from the biggest scandal ever (even within his own month-old administration!), but the linked article clearly shows that his level of spending (relative only to the movements of himself and his family) is massively unprecedented, as is the fact that his family is personally profiting to the tune of millions of dollars off of that spending.

An honest supporter would say something like "yeah, I don't like that he does that, it's pretty shady, probably unethical, and admittedly worse than even Obama was acting with his vacations, but it's also not that important in the grand scheme of all of the good he's doing." I mean, I obviously disagree with that statement as well, but at least it shows some willingness to accept that the Orange one has some flaws that his predecessors did not. Instead we just get more "bla bla bla Obama/Hillary were just as bad, bla bla bla." This, Trump supporters, is why the rest of us have a hard time taking you seriously.
Has anybody on this thread said "blah blah blah, Obama was worse?" Because I literally have not seen anyone making that argument about this spending. Straw man? Again?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2166 on: February 18, 2017, 02:43:40 PM »
It seems the game plan is:
Step 1: yuuge tax cuts
Step 2: increase defense spending to defeat ISIS, ICE funding to defeat illegal immigrants
Step 3: blame sad democrats (and lying media) for deficits that libertarians point out
Step 4: defund government agencies that regulate stuff
Step 5: win mid-terms because now we are safe
Probably not far off, but you forgot:
Step 6: suffer countless strings of environmental disasters because no one was regulating
Step 7: economy tanks when super-bubble pops from financial sector taking ridiculous risks while no one was watching
Step 8: enter new quagmire because super-beefed up military needs to be used, right?
Step 9: corruption on a new scale for America result from undisclosed conflict of interests.

Actually, i'm not sure the exact order of 6, 7, 8, & 9 but I"m pretty sure all will come to pass in one form or another over the next 4 years.
I'd take a few bucks on that bet. I honestly don't see them all happening for only the reasons you propose in the next four years.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2167 on: February 18, 2017, 02:50:52 PM »
It seems the game plan is:
Step 1: yuuge tax cuts
Step 2: increase defense spending to defeat ISIS, ICE funding to defeat illegal immigrants
Step 3: blame sad democrats (and lying media) for deficits that libertarians point out
Step 4: defund government agencies that regulate stuff
Step 5: win mid-terms because now we are safe
Probably not far off, but you forgot:
Step 6: suffer countless strings of environmental disasters because no one was regulating
Step 7: economy tanks when super-bubble pops from financial sector taking ridiculous risks while no one was watching
Step 8: enter new quagmire because super-beefed up military needs to be used, right?
Step 9: corruption on a new scale for America result from undisclosed conflict of interests.

Actually, i'm not sure the exact order of 6, 7, 8, & 9 but I"m pretty sure all will come to pass in one form or another over the next 4 years.
I'd take a few bucks on that bet. I honestly don't see them all happening for only the reasons you propose in the next four years.

I honestly don't evne know how one would judge that bet.  Causes in this case would be particularly difficult to determine - for example if there's some large environmental disaster one could suggest (but never prove) that it would have been avoided had regulation been in place.  or: if no major corruption comes out, is it because there was none, or because there's a complete and utter lack of transparency to allow for discovery?
I was also speaking a bit hyperbolicaly.  I still think at least 2 of the 4 will occur over the next 4 years.
::shrug::  I hope it doesn't, but I suspect it will.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2168 on: February 18, 2017, 03:01:39 PM »
Has anybody on this thread said "blah blah blah, Obama was worse?" Because I literally have not seen anyone making that argument about this spending. Straw man? Again?

Not even I said that. I said others are calling him "just as bad," of which there are many many examples, including (by inference) the very post I quoted ("nothing new here"). Not sure why you're picking these nits so aggressively with me lately but again you're off base. No straw man here. Just a clearly stated observation that is easily verifiable.

You claim to be objective and dislike things about Trump, but not even you will concede this extremely minor and pretty much irrefutable point about his fiscal irresponsibility (or at a minimum hypocrisy). Strange, really.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 03:03:52 PM by Lagom »

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2169 on: February 18, 2017, 03:07:58 PM »

I honestly don't evne know how one would judge that bet.  Causes in this case would be particularly difficult to determine - for example if there's some large environmental disaster one could suggest (but never prove) that it would have been avoided had regulation been in place.  or: if no major corruption comes out, is it because there was none, or because there's a complete and utter lack of transparency to allow for discovery?
I was also speaking a bit hyperbolicaly.  I still think at least 2 of the 4 will occur over the next 4 years.
::shrug::  I hope it doesn't, but I suspect it will.
That was why I felt fairly safe taking this bet. :)

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2170 on: February 18, 2017, 03:18:48 PM »
Has anybody on this thread said "blah blah blah, Obama was worse?" Because I literally have not seen anyone making that argument about this spending. Straw man? Again?

Not even I said that. I said others are calling him "just as bad," of which there are many many examples, including (by inference) the very post I quoted ("nothing new here"). Not sure why you're picking these nits so aggressively with me lately but again you're off base. No straw man here. Just a clearly stated observation that is easily verifiable.

You claim to be objective and dislike things about Trump, but not even you will concede this extremely minor and pretty much irrefutable point about his fiscal irresponsibility (or at a minimum hypocrisy). Strange, really.
If course he is fiscally irresponsible in many areas. I've never denied this. He has fucking gold plated fixtures on his fucking  private air craft. I'm not sure how many more straw men you are going to set up or how many more words you are going to put in my mouth. I do not intend to pick on you, and am sorry if you feel that way, it is just that you happen to be making the most logical fallacies in your arguments over the past few pages. They are the easiest to dismiss; I do not refute many of the great points many other posters have brought up. Yes Trump's security will cost more. No it will not bankrupt the country, and will harldy even be a blip in the annual budget. Anyone claiming otherwise is incorrect. If one wishes to argue that Trump should drastically change his lifestyle to save the country a few million dollars a year in protection, that would be a matter of opinion. Since I have seen no other president engage in this behavior, I would not argue it should be so for this president. Many would no doubt disagree, but I feel this is inconsistent and unfair to the buffoon currently in charge.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2171 on: February 18, 2017, 03:33:00 PM »
Has anybody on this thread said "blah blah blah, Obama was worse?" Because I literally have not seen anyone making that argument about this spending. Straw man? Again?

Not even I said that. I said others are calling him "just as bad," of which there are many many examples, including (by inference) the very post I quoted ("nothing new here"). Not sure why you're picking these nits so aggressively with me lately but again you're off base. No straw man here. Just a clearly stated observation that is easily verifiable.

You claim to be objective and dislike things about Trump, but not even you will concede this extremely minor and pretty much irrefutable point about his fiscal irresponsibility (or at a minimum hypocrisy). Strange, really.
If course he is fiscally irresponsible in many areas. I've never denied this. He has fucking gold plated fixtures on his fucking  private air craft. I'm not sure how many more straw men you are going to set up or how many more words you are going to put in my mouth. I do not intend to pick on you, and am sorry if you feel that way, it is just that you happen to be making the most logical fallacies in your arguments over the past few pages. They are the easiest to dismiss; I do not refute many of the great points many other posters have brought up. Yes Trump's security will cost more. No it will not bankrupt the country, and will harldy even be a blip in the annual budget. Anyone claiming otherwise is incorrect. If one wishes to argue that Trump should drastically change his lifestyle to save the country a few million dollars a year in protection, that would be a matter of opinion. Since I have seen no other president engage in this behavior, I would not argue it should be so for this president. Many would no doubt disagree, but I feel this is inconsistent and unfair to the buffoon currently in charge.

What logical fallacies have I made? Perhaps the toneless internet is to blame but you have appeared weirdly upset about this and are at least as guilty at putting words in my mouth as you claim I have been with you. I made a very small, minor, simple point that started with just posting a link and you seemingly took great offense at the implications you read into that post. I never said it would bankrupt the country. I never said it was even a blip in the annual budget. I never even said he should be expected to drastically change his lifestyle. Those are all your words, not mine.

All I said is he is spending tax payer money on this stuff at a dramatically higher rate than any previous president (true). That his family is personally profiting from these expenses (true). And that he is undeniably a hypocrite given his past comments about Obama (true). Finally, I noted that Trump supporters repeatedly brush even the most minor of criticisms (which I admit this is) by saying things like "he's no worse than Obama" (also true--that they make this statement, that is).

The only debatable thing I said was that he's behaving unethically, which still is not a strawman because I in no way leveraged that argument to make a more sweeping claim.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 03:35:57 PM by Lagom »

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2172 on: February 18, 2017, 03:59:24 PM »
This is good. We can agree his security will cost more. We can agree it is not a problem for the country. When brought up, this particular factoid can be dismissed as unimportant. My issue with the article ( i have no issue with you!) is that it does not point out how insignificant the increase in spending in this area is. It was a hit piece largely deviod of substance, and easily dismissed for its bias and lack of context.

 As was pointed out above, since Trump supporters and Obama supporters and Bush supporters ignore or dismiss when their candidate of choice is hypocritical, calling out nebulous Trump supporters, none of whom are in this thread apparently, for this behavior is hardly helpful to the discussion.

I am sorry if you feel I have been attacking you. I do not mean to come across that way. I have attacked your arguements where I felt they were weak or could be more refined. I value your opinions and diverse views on many tpoics, and apologize if my words have ever made you feel atttacked personally.

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2173 on: February 18, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
Yeah, it's time to stop bothering whining about minor Trump corruption or idiotic Trump verbiage/malapropisms.

Those things just make you look petty. Everyone is well aware that Trump is venal and self-serving and can't stop himself from making long-winded idiotic word salad when asked simple questions at this point who cares to know. Those who don't see him that way will only dismiss this kind of criticism, or worse, think even more highly of him.

-W

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2174 on: February 18, 2017, 04:20:29 PM »
This is good. We can agree his security will cost more. We can agree it is not a problem for the country. When brought up, this particular factoid can be dismissed as unimportant. My issue with the article ( i have no issue with you!) is that it does not point out how insignificant the increase in spending in this area is. It was a hit piece largely deviod of substance, and easily dismissed for its bias and lack of context.

 As was pointed out above, since Trump supporters and Obama supporters and Bush supporters ignore or dismiss when their candidate of choice is hypocritical, calling out nebulous Trump supporters, none of whom are in this thread apparently, for this behavior is hardly helpful to the discussion.

I am sorry if you feel I have been attacking you. I do not mean to come across that way. I have attacked your arguements where I felt they were weak or could be more refined. I value your opinions and diverse views on many tpoics, and apologize if my words have ever made you feel atttacked personally.

You were attacking arguments I wasn't making =P

Also, there are a number of Trump supporters in this thread who have used exactly that line of reasoning repeatedly, including in the very post I quoted (KBecks), making my statement relevant and topical on that front.

The piece I posted was a bit fluffy, I'll grant, but still based in objective fact. I additionally think it is very relevant to bring up that those who continue to support Trump whole-heartedly do so with an intense mindset of ignoring/dismissing any and all criticism (outside some handwaving at how "crass" he is), no matter how minor, which has been evidenced repeatedly throughout this and other threads. If you haven't noticed, you haven't been reading very closely.

Nevertheless, this is a very long thread and has meandered all over the place. My linking of the article was never intended to be anything other than what I explicitly stated: a minor but undeniable example of greed, hypocrisy, and a lack of ethics. An example that is demonstrably worse than anything Obama ever did along similar lines (and by a large margin). I personally find the fact that no one who likes Trump will even admit such an admittedly minor and petty thing is rather disturbing but YMMV.

I suppose Walt is right that despite me not even being a Democrat or a HRC supporter, being opposed to Trump is enough to stigmatize me in the eyes of his supporters that such minor fluff will only serve to reinforce the persecution complex.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 08:41:12 PM by Lagom »

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2175 on: February 18, 2017, 04:43:31 PM »
Do any of you think that some of Trump's executive actions have been clearly unconstitutional? If so, I'm curious which ones. I've thought that some of them are borderline, but that none are just obviously an overreach. But I'm not sure I've looked carefully at them all. This is one of the main areas that concerned me about Trump since the campaign, during which he said he'd violate the constitution in this way if necessary.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2176 on: February 18, 2017, 04:57:01 PM »
... This is one of the main areas that concerned me about Trump since the campaign, during which he said he'd violate the constitution in this way if necessary.

When did Trump say he would violate the constitution if necessary?

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2177 on: February 18, 2017, 05:11:48 PM »
Whether he said such a thing is going to be controversial depending on your view of what Obama did. Here's what I had in mind:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/265371-trump-obama-led-the-way-on-executive-orders

If (like me) you think that Obama's use of executive action was unconstitutional, then this sounds like Trump is saying he will use executive action in a way that is unconstitutional.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2178 on: February 18, 2017, 05:12:30 PM »
Yeah, it's time to stop bothering whining about minor Trump corruption or idiotic Trump verbiage/malapropisms.
Yes, and for the record, we should be more frightened of Trump's malapriapisms!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2179 on: February 18, 2017, 05:14:06 PM »
It's sad to be relieved that Trump is back to harmless campaigning and not trying to do anything Presidential like talking to foreign leaders.  Maybe he'll stay out of Washington all week and the people who do real work and have real jobs can not be distracted, defeated, and disappointed by Trump's terrifying news conferences and meetings.  He's not a politician, but now that the novelty has worn off, that's turning out to be a real problem.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2180 on: February 18, 2017, 05:28:09 PM »
Do any of you think that some of Trump's executive actions have been clearly unconstitutional? If so, I'm curious which ones. I've thought that some of them are borderline, but that none are just obviously an overreach. But I'm not sure I've looked carefully at them all. This is one of the main areas that concerned me about Trump since the campaign, during which he said he'd violate the constitution in this way if necessary.

Are you kidding?  Have you been paying attention to recent court rulings?

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2181 on: February 18, 2017, 05:29:53 PM »
So the immigration order. Didn't seem like an obvious overreach to me (not to say it was a smart policy). Maybe you disagree. Like I said, I'm just curious what you all think. Any of the other ones?

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2182 on: February 18, 2017, 05:42:10 PM »
So the immigration order. Didn't seem like an obvious overreach to me (not to say it was a smart policy). Maybe you disagree. Like I said, I'm just curious what you all think. Any of the other ones?
Well the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality, and so far they have stayed the immigration policy (not ruled it unconstitutional).  Time will tell whether it will be ruled as such or not (assuming the administration pushes the case, which I tend to think it won't).
Besides that, the administration really hasn't done a whole lot other than sign a bunch of executive orders which, smart policy or not, are all probably above bar. 
Has anything happened we don't know about?  Possibly - but its a pretty short time frame.

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2183 on: February 18, 2017, 05:53:46 PM »
Quote
the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality

That doesn't seem right to me if you mean that they're by definition right on constitutional matters. They make judgments, of course, and their judgments have legal authority. But it isn't as if they can't get it wrong. Precedent is sometimes rightly overturned, and that's only possible because they sometimes issue a judgment that gets the constitution wrong. It's coherent to disagree with the court on a matter of constitutional interpretation.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2184 on: February 18, 2017, 06:02:17 PM »
Quote
the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality

That doesn't seem right to me if you mean that they're by definition right on constitutional matters. They make judgments, of course, and their judgments have legal authority. But it isn't as if they can't get it wrong. Precedent is sometimes rightly overturned, and that's only possible because they sometimes issue a judgment that gets the constitution wrong. It's coherent to disagree with the court on a matter of constitutional interpretation.

The courts are by definition right on constitutional matters. And the Supreme court is always right, by definition.

There's a neat quote about the Supreme Court (I think some Chief Justice said it):

The Supreme Court isn't final because it's infallible. It's infallible because it's final.

i.e. The Supreme Court (and lower courts if not challenged) are right because they're the decider on what's right.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2185 on: February 18, 2017, 06:03:47 PM »
So the immigration order. Didn't seem like an obvious overreach to me (not to say it was a smart policy). Maybe you disagree. Like I said, I'm just curious what you all think. Any of the other ones?
Well the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality, and so far they have stayed the immigration policy (not ruled it unconstitutional).  Time will tell whether it will be ruled as such or not (assuming the administration pushes the case, which I tend to think it won't).
Besides that, the administration really hasn't done a whole lot other than sign a bunch of executive orders which, smart policy or not, are all probably above bar. 
Has anything happened we don't know about?  Possibly - but its a pretty short time frame.

A number of courts stayed the order based on likelihood of unconstitutionality.  Plus basically everyone with legal knowledge expected that outcome.  If trump had actually consulted state or anyone else with abrain, they would have told him the same thing

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2186 on: February 18, 2017, 06:06:30 PM »
Quote
the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality

That doesn't seem right to me if you mean that they're by definition right on constitutional matters. They make judgments, of course, and their judgments have legal authority. But it isn't as if they can't get it wrong. Precedent is sometimes rightly overturned, and that's only possible because they sometimes issue a judgment that gets the constitution wrong. It's coherent to disagree with the court on a matter of constitutional interpretation.
well then there's the question of legal precedent which is the underpinning of our entire rule of law. If the courts determine something to be constitutional, all future questions can reference that decision.

Also, your point is... what exactly?  that because the courts can be faliable, we cannot trust them with regards to what is and is not constitutional?  If so, how exactly is that determined?  By a bunch of armchair internet judges?

Quote
A number of courts stayed the order based on likelihood of unconstitutionality.  Plus basically everyone with legal knowledge expected that outcome.  If trump had actually consulted state or anyone else with abrain, they would have told him the same thing
oh, I believe, based on initial rulings, that the EO will be struck down should it ever go before the supreme court.  I'm just pointing out that's not the only option here. A much more likely scenario (IMO) is that the EO gets reworked and it never goes to the supreme court because it's effectively toast.

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2187 on: February 18, 2017, 06:11:31 PM »
Quote
The courts are by definition right on constitutional matters.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'right'. If by 'right' you mean that they have the legal authority to settle these matters, then of course that's true.

But how could a dissenting opinion even make sense if the majority is, by definition, correct about the constitution? A dissenting opinion says, in effect, "the majority is wrongly interpreting the constitution". It would be absurd to suggest that this is by definition impossible!

waltworks

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2188 on: February 18, 2017, 06:13:15 PM »
Quote
the courts are the ones who determine unconstitutionality

That doesn't seem right to me if you mean that they're by definition right on constitutional matters. They make judgments, of course, and their judgments have legal authority. But it isn't as if they can't get it wrong. Precedent is sometimes rightly overturned, and that's only possible because they sometimes issue a judgment that gets the constitution wrong. It's coherent to disagree with the court on a matter of constitutional interpretation.

Without weighing in on the executive order on immigration (or any other) directly, I'll point out that the constitution is a very opaque document, written in somewhat archaic language. There isn't really a "right" or "wrong" in many modern cases, so you have to start saying "what would the folks who wrote the constitution have thought about this?" and just let that ride.

That interpretation can and should change over time, and it has.

-W

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2189 on: February 18, 2017, 06:22:29 PM »
Quote
Also, your point is... what exactly?  that because the courts can be faliable, we cannot trust them with regards to what is and is not constitutional?  If so, how exactly is that determined?  By a bunch of armchair internet judges?

I'm not sure how to answer this. If you agree that they are fallible, then you agree with me that the court is not by definition correct on these issues. That was the whole point. Dragoncar could be right that the immigration order is unconstitutional, even though the courts haven't issued a final ruling yet.

Quote
There isn't really a "right" or "wrong" in many modern cases

I agree that some cases don't have a clear right or wrong, and maybe that in some cases there literally isn't a right and wrong independent of what the court says. But that's not always the case. The constitution has to place some constraint on what the judges rule. Of course it's a matter of great controversy exactly how that works. But for example most of us will agree that, if congress were to pass a law stating that everyone must attend church each Sunday, that would be objectively contrary to the first amendment. So there are clear cases, there are hard cases, and maybe there are cases in which there's literally no correct answer. But my question was: are there any exectuive actions so far that look like easy calls on being unconstitutional?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2190 on: February 18, 2017, 06:32:22 PM »
It seems the game plan is:
Step 1: yuuge tax cuts
Step 2: increase defense spending to defeat ISIS, ICE funding to defeat illegal immigrants
Step 3: blame sad democrats (and lying media) for deficits that libertarians point out
Step 4: defund government agencies that regulate stuff
Step 5: win mid-terms because now we are safe
Probably not far off, but you forgot:
Step 6: suffer countless strings of environmental disasters because no one was regulating
Step 7: economy tanks when super-bubble pops from financial sector taking ridiculous risks while no one was watching
Step 8: enter new quagmire because super-beefed up military needs to be used, right?
Step 9: corruption on a new scale for America result from undisclosed conflict of interests.

Actually, i'm not sure the exact order of 6, 7, 8, & 9 but I"m pretty sure all will come to pass in one form or another over the next 4 years.


#3 and #4 are already happening, no?


#6 will happen regardless of regulations... Exxon Valdez, BP etc... these happen because people make inherently stupid decisions, or decisions based on maximising greed / profit and are willing to take the risk. Regulation doesn't stop people from crossing lines, otherwise there'd be no need for police & courts.


#7 will play out during Trump's second term or after he leaves office. Remember the GFC played out over the course of 2 years from August 2007 to mid 2009... and even then when sharemarkets recovered there was talk of a double dip for a few years afterwards until 2012.


#8... well yeah... you guys do seem to love being in wars perpetually... Nam, Korea, Gulf, Afghanistan, Iraq to name only the most well known ones. We tag along on it all too.


Trump has put out a number of conflicting remarks... wants to destroy ISIS but doesn't want to act as world policeman anymore, other countries taking advantage of your military etc. Honestly no one really knows what he will do when faced with an actual decision to make. He might just decide to sue them all instead :D

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2191 on: February 18, 2017, 07:07:21 PM »

oh, I believe, based on initial rulings, that the EO will be struck down should it ever go before the supreme court.  I'm just pointing out that's not the only option here. A much more likely scenario (IMO) is that the EO gets reworked and it never goes to the supreme court because it's effectively toast.

Sure, in fact Trump said he wouldn't pursue the EO and would rework it.  That's just more evidence on the side that the original EO was unconstitutional. 

Dragoncar could be right that the immigration order is unconstitutional, even though the courts haven't issued a final ruling yet.

Yeah, and climate change isn't certain until we're underwater.  If your position is that we can't know whether anything is unconstitutional until the Supreme Court makes a final ruling (and we wait another 1000 years just to make sure that ruling is never overturned) then yeah I guess Trump's never done anything unconstitutional and nobody else has either because it's unknowable.  But for the purposes of rational and practical discussion, his Muslim Ban EO was unconstitutional.

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2192 on: February 18, 2017, 07:15:14 PM »
Quote
If your position is that we can't know whether anything is unconstitutional until the Supreme Court makes a final ruling

I think you may be misunderstanding me. This is not my position, it's (apprently?) nereo's, and I've been arguing that it's not true that we have to wait.

You and I just disagree about whether the immigration order is obviously unconstitutional. I think it is not obviously unconstitutional, and you think it is.

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2193 on: February 18, 2017, 07:25:06 PM »
Quote
If your position is that we can't know whether anything is unconstitutional until the Supreme Court makes a final ruling

I think you may be misunderstanding me. This is not my position, it's (apprently?) nereo's, and I've been arguing that it's not true that we have to wait.

You and I just disagree about whether the immigration order is obviously unconstitutional. I think it is not obviously unconstitutional, and you think it is.

Chad, I don't get what you're saying either. Is there any example of something that's been done that's "obviously" unconstitutional? You can put the word "obviously" in there and it will mean something different to everyone.



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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2194 on: February 18, 2017, 07:27:49 PM »
Let me give you an example, Chad.

The 2nd amendment says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now, leaving aside the militia part, how do you define "arms"? Most people would, today, say that anything from a knife to an ICBM ("arms" control treaties?) constitutes an "arm".

But you can't own, say, a .50 cal machine gun, or a mortar, or that ICBM legally. How so? The constitution clearly says you can!

The supreme court has ruled on this many times, and if you read between the lines, they did this: they said,  "ok, in the day of the founders, "arms" meant low rate of fire slug-throwers. That's what's allowed."

You can accurately say that the supreme court (relatively uncontroversially, nobody wants the neighborhood n'er do well testing out their new mortar) *defied the literal interpretation of the constitution* in this case.

And it happens all the time. And it should. A quarter-millennium old document can't anticipate modern technology or mores or society.

-W

chad

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2195 on: February 18, 2017, 07:44:12 PM »
I think to myself "there are a lot of people critical of Trump on this thread, and I bet they have intelligent, interesting opinions about which of his executive actions are unconstitutional". I ask my question. Then I'm told incredulously (Dragoncar) that the immigration order is unconstitutional as if that's just supposed to be obvious. After that, Nereo says that nothing is unconstitutional until the court issues a final decision. That's absurd, but whatever, I agrue that Nereo is wrong about this. So then I'm told (waltworks) that no constitutional issue is ever clear, because the whole constitution is as hard to interpret as the second amendment. Finally, dividend man suggests that my question is somehow unclear.

Dudes, nevermind, I withdraw the question.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2196 on: February 18, 2017, 08:07:06 PM »
Dudes, nevermind, I withdraw the question.

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Internets: 1

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2197 on: February 18, 2017, 08:38:02 PM »
Yeah, bluntly, Chad, your whole idea is dumb. We have a whole legal apparatus full of professional nerds interpreting laws (and, if you really want to get geeky about it, have since the days of Moses) that aren't totally clear and have to be applied to weird and novel situations they weren't written for.

That's hard, and it's complex, and it's not easy to figure out over a beer. Sorry.

-W

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2198 on: February 18, 2017, 10:06:02 PM »
I think to myself "there are a lot of people critical of Trump on this thread, and I bet they have intelligent, interesting opinions about which of his executive actions are unconstitutional". I ask my question. Then I'm told incredulously (Dragoncar) that the immigration order is unconstitutional as if that's just supposed to be obvious. After that, Nereo says that nothing is unconstitutional until the court issues a final decision. That's absurd, but whatever, I agrue that Nereo is wrong about this. So then I'm told (waltworks) that no constitutional issue is ever clear, because the whole constitution is as hard to interpret as the second amendment. Finally, dividend man suggests that my question is somehow unclear.

Dudes, nevermind, I withdraw the question.

Well that de-escalated quickly...

calimom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2199 on: February 18, 2017, 10:11:16 PM »
Chad had me at "dudes". That was super-serious!