Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 350199 times)

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2700 on: March 17, 2017, 09:48:03 AM »
So what will Trump do in case of a very real emergency? He throws fictional allegations around left and right. What happens in a real crisis defined by real facts offered by intelligence agencies he rejects?

They're getting into a "boy who cries wolf" situation. Why even bothering going to the press room? Spicer is going to lie about it anyway.

After this is all said and done, how long will it take for Spicer to realize that he left his integrity at the WH door?

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2701 on: March 17, 2017, 09:51:02 AM »
Trump seriously needs to be removed.  He is going to get us all killed.  I never thought I would be glad to see Pence as President.

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2702 on: March 17, 2017, 09:55:28 AM »
Trump seriously needs to be removed.  He is going to get us all killed.  I never thought I would be glad to see Pence as President.
And this is why the GOP is supporting Trump.  It makes them and Pence look reasonable.  Yet, all Trump is doing is what the GOP wants.  I would reconsider your gladness.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2703 on: March 17, 2017, 10:01:57 AM »
Trump seriously needs to be removed.  He is going to get us all killed.  I never thought I would be glad to see Pence as President.

Maybe that's the long game here.  To teach America to be thankful and appreciative of a condescending and paternalistic white male conservative who will quietly work to undermine American values, because that's so clearly preferable to the brazenly offensive and paternalistic white male conservative who tears down American values with childlike giddiness just because be wants to watch the country burn.

I agree, Pence would make a better president.  I would be offended but not ashamed.

But maybe that's a good thing?  If America instead learns the lesson that paternalistic white male conservatives are just anti-American, and trump continues to flounder for four years, maybe the nation can emerge in 2020 with clearer eyes and start repairing some of the damage republicans have wrought.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2704 on: March 17, 2017, 10:16:00 AM »
Meals on wheels is on the chopping block now.  Frail old people can go F themselves.

cerat0n1a

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2705 on: March 17, 2017, 10:21:15 AM »
Some well versed conservatives are probably happy to go along with him still simply because he is mostly doing things they want. Putting forth a mandate to slash fed spending, returning more power to states.

Didn't he propose to increase spending in the budget that was published yesterday?

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2706 on: March 17, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »
Didn't he propose to increase spending in the budget that was published yesterday?

Yes he's increasing spending, but only because Mexico is refusing to pay for the wall so your taxes will have to do it instead.

Except he's also cutting taxes, so really it's just more deficit spending.  But hey at least we'll be ready for that upcoming war with iran!  Fiscal responsibility is a campaign issue only, it seems, freely discarded when it comes time to govern.

The emails I've been getting at work have been hilarious.  They say all kinds of encouraging things about this budget strengthening our programs, improving our security, protecting our resources, and directly supporting our mission, and oh btw it's a huge budget cut and were going to have to fire a bunch of you because there's not enough funding in it to keep the lights on.  Such a joke.

I'll be watching for the analogous messaging if they pass the AHCA.  I expect they'll claim they are "strengthening and protecting" Medicaid by cutting $880 billion from its budget.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2707 on: March 17, 2017, 11:07:19 AM »
But maybe that's a good thing?  If America instead learns the lesson that paternalistic white male conservatives are just anti-American, and trump continues to flounder for four years, maybe the nation can emerge in 2020 with clearer eyes and start repairing some of the damage republicans have wrought.

This is very optimistic in that you assume that Americans will learn and revise their beliefs instead of doubling down and blaming someone else.
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OurTown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2708 on: March 17, 2017, 11:09:23 AM »
War with North Korea in 3, 2, 1 . . .

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2709 on: March 17, 2017, 11:12:29 AM »
So the Trump administration is literally getting its "intelligence" from Fox and Breitbart now, while shunning actual intelligence. I can't even...

Where have you been?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 11:14:06 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Inaya

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2710 on: March 17, 2017, 11:26:54 AM »
So the Trump administration is literally getting its "intelligence" from Fox and Breitbart now, while shunning actual intelligence. I can't even...

Where have you been?

Mostly hoping it wasn't true (i.e., in denial). Can't deny it anymore...
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2711 on: March 17, 2017, 01:07:56 PM »
Trump and email:
"His idea of efficiency is I would send him emails, his assistant would print it, he would write on it, and he would scan it," Cuban said. "He doesn't know how to use email."

LOL. 
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/12/mark-cuban-on-donald-trump-hes-the-zoolander-president.html

Wow. Favorite part:

Quote
Overall, however, Cuban wants Trump's presidency to be successful.

"First of all he's our president," he said. "I don't care how he does personally, but I want the country to do well."

Oh, I'm sure he'll at least do well personally! Funneling public money to the Trump organization will be the only consistent thing about his presidency.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2712 on: March 17, 2017, 05:57:58 PM »
Meals on wheels is on the chopping block now.  Frail old people can go F themselves.

I've volunteered for Meals on Wheels and I can't believe anyone in good conscience would cut this program.  Frail elderly people with very limited income receive prepared meals that would be hard for them to make on their own. This program also becomes a way to look in on these elderly people and make sure they are ok. I imagine some of these elderly are somewhat isolated because of their limited physical abilities.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2713 on: March 18, 2017, 07:39:00 PM »
I'm beginning to wonder if we should start a thread on what Trump will tweet each weekend.

This week, he's claiming that Germany owes vast sums of money to NATO and the U.S.

So, whaddaya think?    Are the Trump Tweets  (Treets?   Twumps?)   

a.   Stream of consciousness from someone with no self control?

b.   Part of an organized political strategy to float ideas and divert attention away from other controversies?
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former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2714 on: March 19, 2017, 07:38:58 AM »
Trump couldn't find the word "strategy" in a dictionary, let alone implement one, and at his current rate of pissing off world leaders he will be a complete Nobby No-mates at the forthcoming G7 and G20.

Is there anyone other than his media staff and a few Republican congress members who has a good word to say about the man now?  His former defenders on this forum have gone very quiet, and even Fox has disowned his statements about UK wiretapping.
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farmecologist

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2715 on: March 19, 2017, 08:58:38 AM »
Meals on wheels is on the chopping block now.  Frail old people can go F themselves.

I've volunteered for Meals on Wheels and I can't believe anyone in good conscience would cut this program.  Frail elderly people with very limited income receive prepared meals that would be hard for them to make on their own. This program also becomes a way to look in on these elderly people and make sure they are ok. I imagine some of these elderly are somewhat isolated because of their limited physical abilities.

Totally agree.  As you said, the food is only one aspect of the program.  Also remember that the deliveries provide what is sometimes the only human contact these people get during their week. 

 

radram

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2716 on: March 19, 2017, 09:27:57 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder if we should start a thread on what Trump will tweet each weekend.

This week, he's claiming that Germany owes vast sums of money to NATO and the U.S.

So, whaddaya think?    Are the Trump Tweets  (Treets?   Twumps?)   

a.   Stream of consciousness from someone with no self control?

b.   Part of an organized political strategy to float ideas and divert attention away from other controversies?

I would vote no way on Treets.  I really like Twumps. I think it could get some legs.

scottish

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2717 on: March 19, 2017, 10:51:28 AM »
Quote
Trump couldn't find the word "strategy" in a dictionary, let alone implement one

I know, I know, but every weekend he has some new tweet (twump) to spark outrage and exasperation.   Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is intentional...    Maybe that Bannon guy is behind it.

Or maybe Trump just gets bored on the weekends and has nothing else to do.
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jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2718 on: March 19, 2017, 11:02:42 AM »
Twitler
A fascist twit who overuses their Twitter, and uses it for attention and to indoctrinate the foolish. Synomous with The Orange Snowflake, a.k.a Orange Mussolini, a.ka. Orange Faced Shit-gibbon, a.k.a Donald J. Trump.    -Urban dictionary

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2719 on: March 19, 2017, 12:38:42 PM »
Quote
Trump couldn't find the word "strategy" in a dictionary, let alone implement one

I know, I know, but every weekend he has some new tweet (twump) to spark outrage and exasperation.   Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is intentional...    Maybe that Bannon guy is behind it.

Or maybe Trump just gets bored on the weekends and has nothing else to do.
The suggestion I saw is that neither Ivanka nor Jared is available to babysit from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown because Sabbath.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2720 on: March 19, 2017, 04:49:28 PM »
FWIW it appears what Trump proposes cutting isn't Meals on Wheels, except to the extent some states happen to use some of the money to fund that program in the block grants that are the actual targets. Making this about MoW ignores the actual conversation that should be happening.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2721 on: March 19, 2017, 07:08:27 PM »
FWIW it appears what Trump proposes cutting isn't Meals on Wheels, except to the extent some states happen to use some of the money to fund that program in the block grants that are the actual targets. Making this about MoW ignores the actual conversation that should be happening.

I disagree I think the conversation is about what the actual programs are that are getting cut and how they are going to hurt various people. If the money comes from a block grant, it's the president's responsibility to know that.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2722 on: March 19, 2017, 09:31:44 PM »
FWIW it appears what Trump proposes cutting isn't Meals on Wheels, except to the extent some states happen to use some of the money to fund that program in the block grants that are the actual targets. Making this about MoW ignores the actual conversation that should be happening.

I disagree I think the conversation is about what the actual programs are that are getting cut and how they are going to hurt various people. If the money comes from a block grant, it's the president's responsibility to know that.
Actually, the basis for eliminating the Community Development Block Grants is ostensibly based on an evaluation of the functions those grants serve and a claimed lack of efficacy in the program overall; from the WH budget summary:

The Federal Government has spent over $150 billion on this block grant since its inception in 1974, but the program is not well-targeted to the poorest populations and has not demonstrated results.

Regarding the actual people this will impact, it's relevant that just 3% of MoW funding is derived from the targeted grants (i.e. it is collateral damage). The real discussion is on the grants in general, how effective they are, and where the scope of federal spending should end and state spending begin, but instead the result is the (re?)affirmed conclusion "Trump hates poor old people!" Maybe he does hate poor old people but that's not terribly relevant to the contents and argument behind the budget proposal.

I bring to you, The Future of Political Discourse:

1. Trump does a thing
2. The mainstream media reports on the thing from a variety of angles (generally in good faith but perhaps from a moderately biased perspective and often not impeccably researched--they have deadlines after all!)
3. Anyone who thinks Trump is an X latch on to variations in reporting that suggest Trump is an X
4. Variations of the story that "indicate" Trump is an X propagate in those wishing confirmation of further evidence Trump is an X
5. People are further polarized, ignoring the actual issues, and even more predisposed to believe Trump is an X next time
6. Repeat for four to eight years

The cycle, of course, is greatly amplified for those who follow fake news sources.

v8rx7guy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2723 on: March 20, 2017, 12:19:37 AM »
  His former defenders on this forum have gone very quiet, and even Fox has disowned his statements about UK wiretapping.

I am not a defender of trump but I am neutral to him at this point.  The reason no one defends him here is because no one here wants to hear any opinion on him other than how terrible he is.  If you take a step back and take a look at it... it's getting pretty pathetic around here.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2724 on: March 20, 2017, 02:20:04 AM »
  His former defenders on this forum have gone very quiet, and even Fox has disowned his statements about UK wiretapping.

I am not a defender of trump but I am neutral to him at this point.  The reason no one defends him here is because no one here wants to hear any opinion on him other than how terrible he is.  If you take a step back and take a look at it... it's getting pretty pathetic around here.
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2725 on: March 20, 2017, 03:41:33 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2726 on: March 20, 2017, 03:44:40 AM »
The suggestion I saw is that neither Ivanka nor Jared is available to babysit from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown because Sabbath.

Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2727 on: March 20, 2017, 06:15:35 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Are any of those directly in response to policies that Trump enacted, or things that were likely to have happened anyway?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2728 on: March 20, 2017, 06:22:47 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Are any of those directly in response to policies that Trump enacted, or things that were likely to have happened anyway?
I think this was covered above - most people will slant the evidence to fit their own viewpoint. But it seems strongly suggested by the actual parties involved in the actual deals that Trump was a non-trivial factor in these things coming to pass. So while its possible that some would have occurred (much like any event), there seems to be indication that the Trump-effect is real for most of the scenarios listed, though of course there is no single factor that ensured they played out the way they did.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2729 on: March 20, 2017, 06:51:36 AM »
I think this was covered above - most people will slant the evidence to fit their own viewpoint. But it seems strongly suggested by the actual parties involved in the actual deals that Trump was a non-trivial factor in these things coming to pass. So while its possible that some would have occurred (much like any event), there seems to be indication that the Trump-effect is real for most of the scenarios listed, though of course there is no single factor that ensured they played out the way they did.

You can argue bias and slat all you want, but here's a fun fact for one of them:
Lockheed committed to a reduced budget in December, prior to anyone from Trump's team meeting with them.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-a-great-plane-now-thanks-to-president-trump-1791824958
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2730 on: March 20, 2017, 07:04:21 AM »
I think this was covered above - most people will slant the evidence to fit their own viewpoint. But it seems strongly suggested by the actual parties involved in the actual deals that Trump was a non-trivial factor in these things coming to pass. So while its possible that some would have occurred (much like any event), there seems to be indication that the Trump-effect is real for most of the scenarios listed, though of course there is no single factor that ensured they played out the way they did.

You can argue bias and slat all you want, but here's a fun fact for one of them:
Lockheed committed to a reduced budget in December, prior to anyone from Trump's team meeting with them.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-a-great-plane-now-thanks-to-president-trump-1791824958
I actually think this is a great example of 'slant.'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/f-35-lockheed-martin-cost-reduction/index.html

CNN reports that it was over 8% savings, so higher than the original estimate offered by your source, as well as Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson crediting President Donald Trump for helping to "accelerate negotiations" and "drive down the price." Two sides of the story, it would seem.

Did Trump single handedly save $700 million dollars from this program? No. Is Lockheed Martin stating that he was a factor in how much was saved? Yes. Are these facts spun towards different conclusions by different reporting sites? Yes, apparently.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2731 on: March 20, 2017, 07:39:40 AM »

I actually think this is a great example of 'slant.'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/f-35-lockheed-martin-cost-reduction/index.html

CNN reports that it was over 8% savings, so higher than the original estimate offered by your source, as well as Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson crediting President Donald Trump for helping to "accelerate negotiations" and "drive down the price." Two sides of the story, it would seem.

Did Trump single handedly save $700 million dollars from this program? No. Is Lockheed Martin stating that he was a factor in how much was saved? Yes. Are these facts spun towards different conclusions by different reporting sites? Yes, apparently.

Bullshit. They committed to a reduction around what Trump was crowing about BEFORE his people ever met with them. Just because the CEO gave him a public reacharound doesn't make it true.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2732 on: March 20, 2017, 07:48:48 AM »

I actually think this is a great example of 'slant.'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/f-35-lockheed-martin-cost-reduction/index.html

CNN reports that it was over 8% savings, so higher than the original estimate offered by your source, as well as Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson crediting President Donald Trump for helping to "accelerate negotiations" and "drive down the price." Two sides of the story, it would seem.

Did Trump single handedly save $700 million dollars from this program? No. Is Lockheed Martin stating that he was a factor in how much was saved? Yes. Are these facts spun towards different conclusions by different reporting sites? Yes, apparently.

Bullshit. They committed to a reduction around what Trump was crowing about BEFORE his people ever met with them. Just because the CEO gave him a public reacharound doesn't make it true.
Clearly it doesn't make it true, but listing greater than expected expense reductions while giving credit to the POTUS could be indication said POTUS had an effect. Claiming that Trump had zero effect because some expense reduction was expected does not make it true, either. Easy to slant from either side, no doubt.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2733 on: March 20, 2017, 07:56:14 AM »

I actually think this is a great example of 'slant.'

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/03/politics/f-35-lockheed-martin-cost-reduction/index.html

CNN reports that it was over 8% savings, so higher than the original estimate offered by your source, as well as Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson crediting President Donald Trump for helping to "accelerate negotiations" and "drive down the price." Two sides of the story, it would seem.

Did Trump single handedly save $700 million dollars from this program? No. Is Lockheed Martin stating that he was a factor in how much was saved? Yes. Are these facts spun towards different conclusions by different reporting sites? Yes, apparently.

Bullshit. They committed to a reduction around what Trump was crowing about BEFORE his people ever met with them. Just because the CEO gave him a public reacharound doesn't make it true.
There's a clear pattern in all the wins currently claimed on behalf of Trump: 1) they are things which are hangovers from Obama's term (Lockheed, employment figures) or 2) they are things which have arisen from people reacting to Trump (reported reduction in illegal border crossings) rather than something Trump has directly done.  The problem with the latter is that the negative reactions to Trump statements need to be offset against the positive (reported reduction in business and academic travel), and never are, and also that the benefits claimed are rarely unalloyed (I personally am against illegal immigration, but if crossing a border illegally saves that person's life, because they are an innocent bystander who otherwise would be killed by the cartels, is that a bad thing overall?).
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2734 on: March 20, 2017, 08:25:23 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Are any of those directly in response to policies that Trump enacted, or things that were likely to have happened anyway?

No. It's a pretty well known fact that policies (particularly economic based) from the previous administration extend into the next Presidential term for quite some time. That time varies of course depending on the policy. And current administration policies (again, particularly economic based) take time to show any affect.

Of course we are currently living in a largely post-fact era and this type of rational thinking clearly gets in the way.

DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2735 on: March 20, 2017, 11:22:14 AM »
So the Trump administration is literally getting its "intelligence" from Fox and Breitbart now, while shunning actual intelligence. I can't even...

Where have you been?

Mostly hoping it wasn't true (i.e., in denial). Can't deny it anymore...

Ha, it would be nice if we could wake up and realize the Trump campaign and presidency were just a horrible dream all along. Here's what Donald Trump said about how he gets his military intelligence/advice, when asked in an interview with Chuck Todd on Meet the Press, during the campaign:

Quote
Todd: Who do you talk to for military advice right now?

Trump: Well, I watch the shows. I mean, I really see a lot of great — you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows, and you have the generals.

So eloquently stated, I might add. The answer is frightening enough, but when coupled with the inability to form a coherent sentence at even the 5th grade level, it's all the more disturbing. And I'll give everyone one whole guess which "shows" Trump is referring to.
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Johnez

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2736 on: March 20, 2017, 01:38:16 PM »
Who's he going to talk to as a candidate? I get he's a bumbling moron, but come-on now he's running a campaign-not invading countries-yet anyway. He later went on to name Bolton and Jacobs as contacts.

I really wish people would stick to the crap that matters. Every time a weak argument or a throw away quote is used, the opposition just digs in that much deeper.

DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2737 on: March 20, 2017, 04:27:50 PM »
Who's he going to talk to as a candidate? I get he's a bumbling moron, but come-on now he's running a campaign-not invading countries-yet anyway. He later went on to name Bolton and Jacobs as contacts.

I really wish people would stick to the crap that matters. Every time a weak argument or a throw away quote is used, the opposition just digs in that much deeper.

I get what you're saying, and if it was an isolated incident, I might give your argument more weight. However, with Trump it's a long-standing pattern, not an aberration. He continues to get his information from shows. Watch the continuing correlation between what is aired on "Fox and Friends" and Trump's tweeting now as President, it's a direct cause-and-effect and undeniable. And, there were plenty of experts he could have been talking to as a candidate, like other well-informed (both Democrat and Republican) candidates did. Getting your information from TV shows (i.e., Fox and Friends) is, in the words of Trump, "SAD!"

Finally, I'll say I did not interpret Trump to say he had Bolton and Jacobs as "contacts" at all -- he did not claim them as contacts or advisers, just that he likes them.  I got more of the impression that these were some people he saw on the shows and liked what they had to say. Plus, he claimed he got an award, yay! Here's the full conversation on the matter for those interested:

Quote
CHUCK TODD: 
Who do you talk to for military advice right now?

DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I watch the shows.  I mean, I really see a lot of great— you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows and you have the generals and—

CHUCK TODD:
So you do the—

DONALD TRUMP:
And you have certain people that you like—

CHUCK TODD:
But is there a go-to for you?  You know—

DONALD TRUMP:
Probably there are—

CHUCK TODD:
—every presidential—

DONALD TRUMP:
—two or three—

CHUCK TODD:
—candidate has a go-to—

DONALD TRUMP:
Yeah, probably there are two or three.  I mean, I like Bolton.  I think he’s, you know, a tough cookie, knows what he’s talking about.  Jacobs is a good guy—

CHUCK TODD:
Do you mean Ambassador John Bolton—

DONALD TRUMP:
Yes.  I think he’s terrific—

CHUCK TODD:
You mean Colonel Jack Jacobs?

DONALD TRUMP:
Colonel Jack Jacobs is a good guy.  And I see him on occasion.  I actually had dinner— I was given a very high award by the Marines at the Waldorf Astoria a couple of months ago.  And your new head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the head Marine, was a very impressive guy.  He just got appointed.  I think—

CHUCK TODD:
You hear good things— 

DONALD TRUMP:
—that he will do—

(OVERTALK) 

DONALD TRUMP:
—a terrific job.
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RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2738 on: March 20, 2017, 04:59:52 PM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Just as a general overview. It is easy to see why for now a Trump supporter would be happy. He has more or less attempted to quickly follow through on every major campaign point.

Keeping Jobs in the US. He made some headlines quick by publicly stepping out and lambasting anyone who was sending jobs outside the US. The most covered was probably the UTC decision to keep a plant open after discussing with Trump and his team. There are valid criticisms and questions surrounding how he got them to keep a portion of the jobs here but I think it is fair to celebrate that for his voters. Other instances with Ford, Trump and team spin Ford's decision as facilitated by their request to keep jobs in US. Ford claims it was just a business decision that would have happened either way. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. His efforts here are laudable even if his methods end up being misguided or insufficient to achieve a major success story. The current results could be seen as positive and hopeful.

Overall so far, he backed out of the TPP so you can mark the jobs and trade issue as job well done so far, though maybe slightly overstated in his true effect beyond trade policy.

I wont go to far into immigration policy but by one metric yes the statement you made is true. Though it clearly isn't due to any major presidential policy as really no new policies have come into effect. It could be due to fear of the administration and impending changes or it could come down to other factors. It needs more analysis. But again if this is a major concern for you, you can chalk that up to a current win.

The current state of the stock market, jobs and the recent deficit reduction to Trump is bordering line ridiculous. Every president tries to take credit for good numbers and spin bad ones. This is no different. Job numbers were rosy for years under Obama while Trump and conservative outlets tore them apart and looked for the downsides. Now suddenly these numbers are a reflection of his solid leadership, *cough*bullshit*cough*. Jobs numbers have simply continued on their current trend for now. Better job numbers in the Obama years were scrutinized harshly by the right...

The only credit he could take for the deficit reduction is he hasn't managed to setup up any major spending in 2 months otherwise the current spending is simply a continuation of what was in place before him. Generally the first year of a new presidencies government spending is really the spending of the previous years congressional and executive branch's agreed budget...

Giving credit to Trump for the bull market is definitely spin. The only thing you can say about the market that is slightly in his favor is that the business outlook is optimistic, especially given Republican tax reform is imminent which generally makes corps happy since tax cuts are always welcome. But I suppose you can give Trump a big old pat on the back for not scaring investors shirtless into a selling frenzy.

I think in general it is reasonable for his supporters to celebrate that he has remained more in touch with his base than previous Republican presidents who would normally be running 100% defense for the House and Senate at this point.

I personally think this is a bad thing, why? Ask yourself how much you would enjoy a hyper liberal president who was taking all his advice from CNN and doing everything the far left thought would make this country better.... maybe that's how people felt under Obama, its hard for me to say. Then rolled out a paper budget that was going to double the size of every welfare program and agency and slash military spending by 10%. Would you prefer rather that he was more bipartisan and cautious about major changes?

Keeping in mind that Trumps tweeting and attitude are every bit as shitty and as infuriating as it was on the campaign trial. And that most people left leaning see this tiresome tirade against immigration as baseless and dangerous as the liberal tirade on gun control. One could crack down on illegal immigration without stirring up so much baseless anger among the base. Playing too much into public passions against certain groups is unhealthy. The same goes for finding ways to reduce Muslim immigration.

Overall my current evaluation of Trump is that you have to turn a blind eye to ignore is failings as a leader and the potential trouble he can get us into. You also have to be pretty partisan to suggest his bold face lies aren't a notch above either of our past two presidents. We can all agree Presidents lie and spin the shit out of policies to sell them to the public. But making press conference statements acknowledging wire tapping by Obama through the British government because some jerk off on Fox news made a baseless assertion... come on, we are getting deep into crazy town.

That being said he is making clear efforts to appease his base. And the every action he has taken, if you look at it from a purely legal perspective, and throw out the rhetoric, are defensible and more or at least in line with Republican politics.

Take a step back an ignore the overheated elements of the left out protesting every other thing. I think a summarized quote from David Frum, a conservative political commentator and speech writer for Bush, here on a recent podcast with Sam Harris is applicable. "Trump the man is indefensible." Mainly noting that there is a stark difference in ability to defend his policies and him as a person who is well suited to hold the office of the Presidency.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2739 on: March 20, 2017, 05:00:13 PM »
I interpreted "sees him on occasion" and the fact that he had dinner with him as having Jacobs as a contact-I forget though that "dinners" are something different in the eh...."elite" crowd.

I went and looked up that specific exchange before you posted, and the fact that it's a pattern doesn't really matter. To his base he is "a normal guy like us!" To everyone else, this is infuriating. How does this help? I wish people would have hammered the guy on his actual values and actions. It's too late for that now, now all Trump has to do is not get into any trouble and skate by without a controversy or scandal.... I'm just looking at this from the lens of a guy who saw W elected a second time after such a contentious election the first time. No lessons have been learned at all. Everyone laughs about it watching SNL, or gnashes their teeth on forums and comment pages. Trump will be elected second go around if it keeps going the way it is.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2740 on: March 20, 2017, 06:39:55 PM »
Trump has 24 hr access to the greatest intelligence mechanism in the history of mankind and he rejects it in favor of FoxNews, InfoWars and other sources with dubious credibility? That says alot about the man and his organization to me. It does not bode well for the nation in case of real crisis.

I'm hoping that the experts ignores this guy and goes about their duties.

DoubleDown

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2741 on: March 20, 2017, 07:49:10 PM »
Everyone laughs about it watching SNL, or gnashes their teeth on forums and comment pages. Trump will be elected second go around if it keeps going the way it is.

Of course 6 months ago I would have said you're crazy, now I say you could be right!
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2742 on: March 20, 2017, 08:27:01 PM »
Quote
Take a step back an ignore the overheated elements of the left out protesting every other thing. I think a summarized quote from David Frum, a conservative political commentator and speech writer for Bush, here on a recent podcast with Sam Harris is applicable. "Trump the man is indefensible." Mainly noting that there is a stark difference in ability to defend his policies and him as a person who is well suited to hold the office of the Presidency.
 

Your last point may be true, but Frum has been actively on a campaign to warn Republicans about Trump's policies too--he's not separating his personal qualities from his politics the way you suggest is possible:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/03/how-to-build-an-autocracy/513872/

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2743 on: March 21, 2017, 03:53:43 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Are any of those directly in response to policies that Trump enacted, or things that were likely to have happened anyway?

No. It's a pretty well known fact that policies (particularly economic based) from the previous administration extend into the next Presidential term for quite some time. That time varies of course depending on the policy. And current administration policies (again, particularly economic based) take time to show any affect.
Are you suggesting then that Trump can't be held accountable for anything that has happened since his inauguration, as all events (other than the teeth gnashing at his early morning tweets) are simply fallout from previous administrations? I think that is a pretty weak argument. Every analysis I have ever seen makes it pretty clear the amazing stock-market run up is a response to market expectations that he will loosen business regulations, and the sharp and unexpected drop in illegal border crossings is a direct result of his stance on immigration.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you are giving Trump 100% of the credit for positive economic news, I will expect you to give him 100% of the blame for poor economic news.  I want to see you blaming Trump when the stock market goes down 10%, when Lockheed Martin has a poor earnings report, when employment figures suck, or when the F-35 program goes over-budget (again).
I'm not sure anyone is giving Trump 100% credit for anything, they are simply arguing he has some effect upon certain events that have been positive. I wouldn't give him credit for the stock market tumbling if tomorrow it were revealed that BOA and Wells Fargo employees had siphoned off billions of dollars from accounts and fled the country, for example. Not really within his power, or the power of a previous administration to avoid that particular event. I would actually question the logic and consistency of anyone who suggested a President be blamed for such a thing.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2744 on: March 21, 2017, 04:34:51 AM »
Just as a general overview. It is easy to see why for now a Trump supporter would be happy. He has more or less attempted to quickly follow through on every major campaign point.

Keeping Jobs in the US. He made some headlines quick by publicly stepping out and lambasting anyone who was sending jobs outside the US. The most covered was probably the UTC decision to keep a plant open after discussing with Trump and his team. There are valid criticisms and questions surrounding how he got them to keep a portion of the jobs here but I think it is fair to celebrate that for his voters. Other instances with Ford, Trump and team spin Ford's decision as facilitated by their request to keep jobs in US. Ford claims it was just a business decision that would have happened either way. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. His efforts here are laudable even if his methods end up being misguided or insufficient to achieve a major success story. The current results could be seen as positive and hopeful.

Overall so far, he backed out of the TPP so you can mark the jobs and trade issue as job well done so far, though maybe slightly overstated in his true effect beyond trade policy.

I wont go to far into immigration policy but by one metric yes the statement you made is true. Though it clearly isn't due to any major presidential policy as really no new policies have come into effect. It could be due to fear of the administration and impending changes or it could come down to other factors. It needs more analysis. But again if this is a major concern for you, you can chalk that up to a current win.

The current state of the stock market, jobs and the recent deficit reduction to Trump is bordering line ridiculous. Every president tries to take credit for good numbers and spin bad ones. This is no different. Job numbers were rosy for years under Obama while Trump and conservative outlets tore them apart and looked for the downsides. Now suddenly these numbers are a reflection of his solid leadership, *cough*bullshit*cough*. Jobs numbers have simply continued on their current trend for now. Better job numbers in the Obama years were scrutinized harshly by the right...

The only credit he could take for the deficit reduction is he hasn't managed to setup up any major spending in 2 months otherwise the current spending is simply a continuation of what was in place before him. Generally the first year of a new presidencies government spending is really the spending of the previous years congressional and executive branch's agreed budget...

Giving credit to Trump for the bull market is definitely spin. The only thing you can say about the market that is slightly in his favor is that the business outlook is optimistic, especially given Republican tax reform is imminent which generally makes corps happy since tax cuts are always welcome. But I suppose you can give Trump a big old pat on the back for not scaring investors shirtless into a selling frenzy.

I think in general it is reasonable for his supporters to celebrate that he has remained more in touch with his base than previous Republican presidents who would normally be running 100% defense for the House and Senate at this point.
I would suppose Trump supporters would be happy; their guy won, and is following through on many of his campaign promises within the first two months in office. I haven't really talked to enough Trump supporters to get a feel of how they are thinking as a group or to be able to generalize their thoughts or speak for them, but the ones I am aware of do seem to be happy.

But as you pointed out, even if Trumps methods are brash and crass and even giggle-inducing, there have been positive reactions and positive outcomes from some of his actions. That was the point; to say that NOTHING positive has come out of his first two months in office is untrue, unless one holds that increasing markets, decreased illegal immigration and fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things? I'm sure there are probably other 'positives' that a Trump supporter would cite, but as I, and possibly others, would disagree they are positive, I don't know that they would be effective arguments for a Trump supporter to make.

I personally think this is a bad thing, why? Ask yourself how much you would enjoy a hyper liberal president who was taking all his advice from CNN and doing everything the far left thought would make this country better.... maybe that's how people felt under Obama, its hard for me to say. Then rolled out a paper budget that was going to double the size of every welfare program and agency and slash military spending by 10%. Would you prefer rather that he was more bipartisan and cautious about major changes?

Keeping in mind that Trumps tweeting and attitude are every bit as shitty and as infuriating as it was on the campaign trial. And that most people left leaning see this tiresome tirade against immigration as baseless and dangerous as the liberal tirade on gun control. One could crack down on illegal immigration without stirring up so much baseless anger among the base. Playing too much into public passions against certain groups is unhealthy. The same goes for finding ways to reduce Muslim immigration.

Overall my current evaluation of Trump is that you have to turn a blind eye to ignore is failings as a leader and the potential trouble he can get us into. You also have to be pretty partisan to suggest his bold face lies aren't a notch above either of our past two presidents. We can all agree Presidents lie and spin the shit out of policies to sell them to the public. But making press conference statements acknowledging wire tapping by Obama through the British government because some jerk off on Fox news made a baseless assertion... come on, we are getting deep into crazy town.

That being said he is making clear efforts to appease his base. And the every action he has taken, if you look at it from a purely legal perspective, and throw out the rhetoric, are defensible and more or at least in line with Republican politics.

Take a step back an ignore the overheated elements of the left out protesting every other thing. I think a summarized quote from David Frum, a conservative political commentator and speech writer for Bush, here on a recent podcast with Sam Harris is applicable. "Trump the man is indefensible." Mainly noting that there is a stark difference in ability to defend his policies and him as a person who is well suited to hold the office of the Presidency.
Meh. I haven't been very impressed by any president in the past decade I have been eligible to vote, and it seems like they all have been hyper partisian and agenda-focused. I would have preferred they all be more bi-partisian and work with both sides of congress much more closely. Sadly that seems to be the opposite of the trend in my life-time. I've no idea how a Trump supporter would feel, I guess.  I wouldn't waste my breath supporting any POTUS against all attacks; they have all had their failings in my view, though some positives have come out of their tenures. Since the mini discussion is simply about the search for a non-zero number of positives of Trump's short tenure and not about Trump as a person or his large number of poor policies, I don't think getting bogged down in how I wish he would act is helpful.
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MustacheMathTM

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2745 on: March 21, 2017, 05:45:04 AM »
If there is evidence of the good things Trump has done in his first few weeks in the Presidency I'd be interested to see it.  I'm skeptical it exists: Trump himself would never stop talking about it for one.  There's plenty being said about what he's got wrong.
I thought we went over this: A few thousand jobs across a few different industries, budget cuts to a specific bloated military program, a drastic and unprecedented drop in illegal border crossings at the southern border, a huge stock market run up and fantastic job numbers. 

Now, none of these are great, and they in no way void anything else he or his team have done, but it's not ALL bad.

Are any of those directly in response to policies that Trump enacted, or things that were likely to have happened anyway?

No. It's a pretty well known fact that policies (particularly economic based) from the previous administration extend into the next Presidential term for quite some time. That time varies of course depending on the policy. And current administration policies (again, particularly economic based) take time to show any affect.
Are you suggesting then that Trump can't be held accountable for anything that has happened since his inauguration, as all events (other than the teeth gnashing at his early morning tweets) are simply fallout from previous administrations? I think that is a pretty weak argument. Every analysis I have ever seen makes it pretty clear the amazing stock-market run up is a response to market expectations that he will loosen business regulations, and the sharp and unexpected drop in illegal border crossings is a direct result of his stance on immigration.

No! I bolded your confusion. If you are still confused I can underline it as well.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2746 on: March 21, 2017, 05:55:01 AM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you are giving Trump 100% of the credit for positive economic news, I will expect you to give him 100% of the blame for poor economic news.  I want to see you blaming Trump when the stock market goes down 10%, when Lockheed Martin has a poor earnings report, when employment figures suck, or when the F-35 program goes over-budget (again).
I'm not sure anyone is giving Trump 100% credit for anything, they are simply arguing he has some effect upon certain events that have been positive. I wouldn't give him credit for the stock market tumbling if tomorrow it were revealed that BOA and Wells Fargo employees had siphoned off billions of dollars from accounts and fled the country, for example. Not really within his power, or the power of a previous administration to avoid that particular event. I would actually question the logic and consistency of anyone who suggested a President be blamed for such a thing.

And if we have another big downturn a year from now because the same assholes who tanked the economy last time around were let off their leashes again? Who's fault will that be? We've gone from "Too Big to Fail" to "Even Too Bigger to Fail," and still don't have any separation between retail and investment banking. Is the current government going to let the banks fail when it's full of alumni? Or will it be a result of "secular market forces" and "the business cycle?"
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2747 on: March 21, 2017, 06:34:13 AM »
No! I bolded your confusion. If you are still confused I can underline it as well.
Ahh. I guess it could be argued these are not reactions to policy; sorry for the confusion. These do seem to be more positive reactions to the powerful personality and dynamic efforts of Trump himself, and not specific policies he has enacted.

And if we have another big downturn a year from now because the same assholes who tanked the economy last time around were let off their leashes again? Who's fault will that be? We've gone from "Too Big to Fail" to "Even Too Bigger to Fail," and still don't have any separation between retail and investment banking. Is the current government going to let the banks fail when it's full of alumni? Or will it be a result of "secular market forces" and "the business cycle?"
I guess in the scenario you described, where previous administration's policies have led to bigger problems than the last 'tanking of the economy', it won't be great for America. I can't predict how a Trump administration would react to such an event, and I'm hardly enough of an expert to argue whether it would be better to once again bail out the banks as was done before or to let them fail.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2748 on: March 21, 2017, 07:23:18 AM »
No! I bolded your confusion. If you are still confused I can underline it as well.
Ahh. I guess it could be argued these are not reactions to policy; sorry for the confusion. These do seem to be more positive reactions to the powerful personality and dynamic efforts of Trump himself, and not specific policies he has enacted.

Yes, one could certainly argue some the reactions are a result of essentially Trump's rhetoric. Not based on actual enacted policies though. 

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2749 on: March 21, 2017, 08:28:11 AM »
That was the point; to say that NOTHING positive has come out of his first two months in office is untrue, ... fewer American jobs moved out of the country are bad things?

This is not accurate. For one thing manufacturing jobs are in decline mainly due to automation in factories. CEO's of companies like Ford announce jobs created at American factories and Trump makes claims that he persuaded these companies to do this, rather than move the factories to Mexico or China. These companies were planning these factory jobs months ago and have nothing to do with Trump.

Moreover, the decline in international travelers to the United States is taking away jobs that cater to tourism. Why the decline in travel here?  Largely it is the result of Trump's travel bans that create a negative impression of the US as being a difficult and unwelcoming place to come to.