Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 381971 times)

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2100 on: February 16, 2017, 06:42:27 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.
You'd need to have access to one.
I can't imagine a situation where you would end up in a courtroom facing a criminal charge without having access to an attorney.  That's blatantly unconstitutional.
How many incidences would you like me to list? 

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I would love to see a list of these incidents, with supporting documentation. The most relevant would be post 2001 border security incidents, of course.

bacchi

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2101 on: February 16, 2017, 06:57:49 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2102 on: February 16, 2017, 07:04:37 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2103 on: February 16, 2017, 07:12:54 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.
After reading that pdf some interesting notes.  They granted the defendant immunity so she is not in danger and therefore has no 5th amendment rights to assert.  They didn't demand the password, they demanded the hard drive be produced in an unencrypted form.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2104 on: February 16, 2017, 07:14:08 PM »
More on what might happen if you refuse to give up your phone password. Looks like this hasn't ever been truly tested in court:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/02/what-could-happen-if-you-refuse-to-unlock-your-phone-at-the-us-border/

I bet there are quite a few attorneys out there who would love to take a case for someone criminally charged for refusing to unlock their phone.

https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/01/decrypt.pdf

Summary: The courts can order you to reveal a password for an encrypted device (in this case, a laptop). Of course, there were other charges and it was believed that the laptop held evidence.

I think it's more likely that DHS would hold you for a few days and just not return the phone/laptop, forcing you to hire counsel to sue for the return of your own device.

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

A court order is a lot different than a CBP official's demand.  If DHS held a citizen for a few days (i.e. denying entry to the country) the ACLU would have an absolute field day.  It'd probably be worth it for the nearly guaranteed legal settlement afterwards.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2105 on: February 16, 2017, 07:21:04 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2106 on: February 16, 2017, 07:42:09 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.

You would have to plan ahead and sign out of all attached accounts on your device - most people have Dropbox, Google, etc. permanently logged in on their phones.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2107 on: February 16, 2017, 07:43:45 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.
Genius. Then the government can look at it at their leisure. :D

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2108 on: February 16, 2017, 07:47:06 PM »
A non-US citizen who refused would probably not be allowed to enter the country.

This whole thing is easily avoidable with placing your encrypted data into the cloud.
Genius. Then the government can look at it at their leisure. :D
They can look, but random looking bytes don't help them.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2109 on: February 16, 2017, 08:01:07 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2110 on: February 16, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

If you log out of all cloud-connected accounts, I think that would render everything inaccessible.  I may have to test that.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2111 on: February 16, 2017, 08:09:39 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

 Nathan Freed Wessler, a staff attorney with the ACLU:
Quote
Wessler's advice is similar: "The best advice may be to be really careful on how many devices and what kind of data you're carrying with you," he says. "In terms of devices, government can't search what you don't have."

People who are concerned should leave their primary phone or laptop at home and travel with another device, he says.

Or, you could back up your data to a secure server, wipe it from your phone and then restore the data after you pass through customs, Wessler says. But this also could raise suspicions at the border.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2112 on: February 16, 2017, 08:24:06 PM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

 Nathan Freed Wessler, a staff attorney with the ACLU:
Quote
Wessler's advice is similar: "The best advice may be to be really careful on how many devices and what kind of data you're carrying with you," he says. "In terms of devices, government can't search what you don't have."

People who are concerned should leave their primary phone or laptop at home and travel with another device, he says.

Or, you could back up your data to a secure server, wipe it from your phone and then restore the data after you pass through customs, Wessler says. But this also could raise suspicions at the border.

That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2113 on: February 16, 2017, 08:30:52 PM »
That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)
Ok. I guess we have different understanding of whether looking suspicious at the boarder is ill-advisable or not. No problem.

If, worse case scenario, a back-up phone is just as suspicious, I guess I would prefer to let the CBP keep my back-up phone for several months while they dig through it, as opposed to my primary phone.

jim555

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2114 on: February 16, 2017, 08:38:00 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under. 

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2115 on: February 16, 2017, 09:16:15 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under.

LOL, yes...I caught a bit this afternoon. He was quite displeased about "BAD questions" from reporters.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2116 on: February 16, 2017, 09:44:05 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2117 on: February 16, 2017, 10:01:33 PM »
Did anyone see the news conference today?  DJT looks like a flailing guy about to go under.

LOL, yes...I caught a bit this afternoon. He was quite displeased about "BAD questions" from reporters.

It was seriously pathetic to see the President of the United States worry about getting 'difficult questions'.  And he does such a lame job on answering questions anyways.  But the low point for me was when the Jewish reporter (not stereotyping, he was very culturally Jewish) got the go ahead and then got shut up and dressed down. 

I suppose I could be understanding if there were an obvious, prolonged, unfounded hatchet job against Trump, but I honestly feel like reporters are doing a reasonable job trying to shed light on what they hope aren't too troubling of issues.  No-one really wants to hear that Trump has made some deals with Russia, but we do want to put all of the swirling inconsistency and troubling leaks of partial truth behind us.

This level of incompetence is dangerous in the fact that it demoralizes while giving enthusiasm to those that wish to do us harm.  If the US was perceived as a bully in the past, we are also becoming an ally that seems compromised.  In other words, every time Trump speaks publicly, he is turning up the boil on global politics, probably inadvertently, and also making it hard to unify behind him.

Has it really only been 4 weeks?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2118 on: February 16, 2017, 11:19:38 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2119 on: February 16, 2017, 11:27:00 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Please.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2120 on: February 16, 2017, 11:32:25 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Please.
Color me unimpressed with outrage over .0001 percent of the federal budget.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2121 on: February 16, 2017, 11:51:43 PM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Please.
Color me unimpressed with outrage over .0001 percent of the federal budget.

Not comparable situations and you know it.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2122 on: February 16, 2017, 11:55:49 PM »
That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)
Ok. I guess we have different understanding of whether looking suspicious at the boarder is ill-advisable or not. No problem.

If, worse case scenario, a back-up phone is just as suspicious, I guess I would prefer to let the CBP keep my back-up phone for several months while they dig through it, as opposed to my primary phone.

It's advisable to do whichever creates the least trouble.  If you bring your regular phone and they spend 12 hours reading all your emails vs. a "suspicious" wiped phone but they release you after 2 hours because there's nothing to search, which is advisable?  If they take your phone for a few weeks that changes the equation.  I don't think we have enough info to "advise" on the best course of action

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2123 on: February 16, 2017, 11:58:33 PM »
Not comparable situations and you know it.
Would you care to elaborate? I see money as fungible and don't hold one dollar as particularly more valuable than another.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2124 on: February 17, 2017, 12:06:53 AM »
Not comparable situations and you know it.
Would you care to elaborate? I see money as fungible and don't hold one dollar as particularly more valuable than another.

I find it hard to believe you don't see my point, but fine. Let us consider that I work in a job in which I have a certain level of discretionary funds I can spend. For example, if I take someone out on a business dinner, while there is a cap on my allowed spending, it is comfortably high enough for me to pay for fancy meals with copious libations. Nevertheless, I never come close to that cap because I know it would be irresponsible of me to do so when the necessary ends can be achieved for far less. If I ignore this, I would be taking advantage of my position to fulfill personal whims, and if I did it often, I would be fired and justifiably so, most especially if it came to light that all of those dinners were being held at my family's restaurant.

This is a "rounding error" of a part of the budget that is 100% in control of the President and his family, and they are using it like a never-ending piggy bank (that conveniently returns some of the money back to their personal ban accounts) in a way that is grossly unprecedented. Do you mean to tell me you believe that is nevertheless no different than overspending on any other line in the federal budget? Or maybe it is all OK as long as a similar level of money is cut from somewhere else? PBS maybe?

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2125 on: February 17, 2017, 12:13:58 AM »
Not comparable situations and you know it.
Would you care to elaborate? I see money as fungible and don't hold one dollar as particularly more valuable than another.

I find it hard to believe you don't see my point, but fine. Let us consider that I work in a job in which I have a certain level of discretionary funds I can spend. For example, if I take someone out on a business dinner, while there is a cap on my allowed spending, it is comfortably high enough for me to pay for fancy meals with copious libations. Nevertheless, I never come close to that cap because I know it would be irresponsible of me to do so when the necessary ends can be achieved for far less. If I ignore this, I would be taking advantage of my position to fulfill personal whims, and if I did it often, I would be fired and justifiably so, most especially if it came to light that all of those dinners were being held at my family's restaurant.

This is a "rounding error" of a part of the budget that is 100% in control of the President and his family, and they are using it like a never-ending piggy bank (that conveniently returns some of the money back to their personal ban accounts) in a way that is grossly unprecedented. Do you mean to tell me you believe that is nevertheless no different than overspending on any other line in the federal budget? Or maybe it is all OK as long as a similar level of money is cut from somewhere else? PBS maybe?
Maybe we could save that much money on something really silly, like a military program that is already far over budget?

I guess I see it as such a small number that it's hardly newsworthy. To put it in perspective, the allowed spending cap on said fancy meals would be $200 out of the $1,000,000 budget. The person uses $100. Sure they could have  went to mcdonalds for all of their meetings and spent $50, but when working through the budget on the project I find it hard to believe they're going to fire anyone for spending such a small percentage more when it is so clearly within in the bounds of the cap.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2126 on: February 17, 2017, 12:19:00 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2127 on: February 17, 2017, 12:22:27 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2128 on: February 17, 2017, 12:28:05 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2129 on: February 17, 2017, 12:37:50 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.
Meh. This is several different arguments wrapped up in one. I'm fine with some of them, such as the 'jet setting lifestyle.' This has been his lifestyle literally his entire life. I don't expect him to change significantly because he is the president - that I think would be unfair. I didn't expect Bush to not spend time in Texas or Obama to not go golfing in Hawaii, even though it would have not doubt been cheaper if they had stayed in Washington watching TV on the weekends.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2130 on: February 17, 2017, 01:40:48 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.
Meh. This is several different arguments wrapped up in one. I'm fine with some of them, such as the 'jet setting lifestyle.' This has been his lifestyle literally his entire life. I don't expect him to change significantly because he is the president - that I think would be unfair. I didn't expect Bush to not spend time in Texas or Obama to not go golfing in Hawaii, even though it would have not doubt been cheaper if they had stayed in Washington watching TV on the weekends.

Wow Mouse, you are getting to be just about as good at this as POTUS :)

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2131 on: February 17, 2017, 01:46:27 AM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.
Meh. This is several different arguments wrapped up in one. I'm fine with some of them, such as the 'jet setting lifestyle.' This has been his lifestyle literally his entire life. I don't expect him to change significantly because he is the president - that I think would be unfair. I didn't expect Bush to not spend time in Texas or Obama to not go golfing in Hawaii, even though it would have not doubt been cheaper if they had stayed in Washington watching TV on the weekends.

Wow Mouse, you are getting to be just about as good at this as POTUS :)
Well if one wishes to discuss greed and graft and stealing from the government, that is fine, but this was not how the question was phrased, nor the main point of the article covered. I don't find paying for protection of the POTUS to be a great burden upon the country.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2132 on: February 17, 2017, 01:58:15 AM »
Just my own personal comment on this (extravagant expenditure of a President).  For a guy that 'represents the middle class', Trump sure seems to play lots of golf on his own properties and enjoy luxuries most middle class will never, ever know.  As a Mustachian, we all know that when you're exposed to a spigot of wealth, there is either a choice to live a mindful life and control your own destiny, or shower oneself in wealth and deal with the obligations tied to the income.  I get the impression Trump continues to want it all, more income and not having to work for it.  Only now, he also can re-write the rules.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2133 on: February 17, 2017, 02:03:22 AM »
And I'm also not afraid to add that I'm not happy about my taxes (money taken out of my paycheck) going toward 'protecting' Tiffany Trump and Eric Trump 'gallivanting freely as socialities', as opposed to paying for my own son and daughter's needs.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 02:06:02 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2134 on: February 17, 2017, 02:15:06 AM »

It makes me think a dual boot phone could be useful here. Just boot into "clean" mode and give them that password.

This has been covered. It is considered ill advisable, as when you boot up your sanitized device the agents will likely view this as suspicious.

I think I missed it -- covered where?  I'm leaving the country soon and am considering wiping my phone before re-entering (I don't have anything incriminating, but my phone has access to decades of emails that they can go through)

 Nathan Freed Wessler, a staff attorney with the ACLU:
Quote
Wessler's advice is similar: "The best advice may be to be really careful on how many devices and what kind of data you're carrying with you," he says. "In terms of devices, government can't search what you don't have."

People who are concerned should leave their primary phone or laptop at home and travel with another device, he says.

Or, you could back up your data to a secure server, wipe it from your phone and then restore the data after you pass through customs, Wessler says. But this also could raise suspicions at the border.

That doesn't say it's ill advisable, and carrying a non-primary phone is likely just as suspicious (since it will look like a wiped phone)

Ditch the "smart" phone for a dumb one. Problem solved.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2135 on: February 17, 2017, 02:22:59 AM »
Sheesh, this thread is getting so 'Trumped' by distractionary comments with all the nesting and whatnot.  It's no wonder modern democracy is sliding down to being barely on par with or less effective than socialism.

Sincerely, democracy means that my comments would be heard just as loudly as yours.  But socialism means that you include a wall of nested text that probably means most people won't see what I posted earlier.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2136 on: February 17, 2017, 02:26:26 AM »
Not picking on you Accolay, but you could've been more efficient in your reply, by targeting or paraphrasing what you were replying to.

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2137 on: February 17, 2017, 02:48:54 AM »
Not picking on you Accolay, but you could've been more efficient in your reply, by targeting or paraphrasing what you were replying to.

No offense taken. However, I'm not bothered with the inefficiency of my reply. Thought the sentiment was pretty easy to figure out though.

Johnez

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2138 on: February 17, 2017, 03:06:51 AM »
Doesn't bother me much, but it is expected "netiquite" to not "double post" or multi-post in a row.

The annoyance of scrolling through multiple nested quotes saying the same thing over and over and over again has me erasing all but the actual post I want to quote when I reply to a quote.

Just chiming in, because I'm sure others feel the same way and simply stop reading when scrolling through redundancy becomes a hassle.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 03:09:07 AM by Johnez »

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2139 on: February 17, 2017, 06:52:36 AM »
From the press conference:

Quote
Obamacare is a disaster, folks. It it's disaster. I know you can say, oh, Obamacare.I mean, they fill up our alleys with people that you wonder how they get there, but they are not the Republican people that our representatives are representing.

The fuck does that mean???

I'm thinking it's something along the lines of  this: "only lazy liberal indigents are using the ACA, and when done with their freebie medical care, the low-lifes head back out to the alley - where they live. Upstanding, self-reliant, self-righteous registered republicans who might use ACA - I'm not complaining about you."

Why am I even attempting to translate that?  IDK - because it and so many other statements are baffling beyond belief.

Jeez - on almost everything - ACA, DACA, Immigrants etc.  - all he sees is good guys and bad guys. He's such a fucking simpleton. This constant parsing of people into good/ bad buckets is exhausting.

Quote
"I do get good ratings you have to admit this."

He's POTUS. Has he no shame? ...  and these are only tiny snippets from that train-wreck of a press conference. There's so much more.

Sorry this is a rant - but we are living the impacts of the Trump Presidency. This is reality now.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 07:06:08 AM by Malaysia41 »

former player

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2140 on: February 17, 2017, 07:10:55 AM »
Elected representatives are there to represent everyone in their constituency.  Not just the people who voted for them.  Has anyone ever tried to tell Trump that?  That he is doing his job for everyone in the US, not just the ones who voted for him?

Gah.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2141 on: February 17, 2017, 07:14:25 AM »
Elected representatives are there to represent everyone in their constituency.  Not just the people who voted for them.  Has anyone ever tried to tell Trump that?  That he is doing his job for everyone in the US, not just the ones who voted for him?

Gah.

To me, it's on par with all of the people in Congress constantly making statements about the "outsiders" coming into their district/state to cause trouble. The Rep from NY24 did it yesterday, it was this whole big thing about how people from NY Indivisible were just interlopers trying to get between him and his constituents. A bunch of people did it during the DeVos hearings, "Oh, people from out of state are jamming up my phone lines." Bullshit.

Malaysia41

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2142 on: February 17, 2017, 07:24:20 AM »
These 'outsiders' are the constituents who've been woken up from their apolitical slumber.

I hate the two party system - but if the progressives don't start getting out the right messaging and framing NOW to attract all the middle-of-the-road Trump supporters, I don't see how they'll ever be able to get those people back.

Progressive values:

The government's job is to protect the constitutional rights of all American citizens, to empower people to become healthy, prosperous, and to pursue their own happiness. Basic healthcare, world class education. Cooperation.

If they keep speaking in GOP-ese this shit show will just result in another republican taking the helm.

It's those sleeping constituents who need to speak up and make a difference. It's like what the guy from Venezuela advised - you have to go have a beer with the people who've identified with the other team. Explain - using your own language - why your values make sense. Stop with this Ayn Rand supply-side Jesus speak and discuss what it is to be fucking human.

Again - it's a rant - but I'm one of those sleeping constituents. And I'm wide awake. I've been writing blog posts on 'Issues That Unite Us' and reaching out to the Trumpsters in my family to get common ground on some issues.

Just Joe

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2143 on: February 17, 2017, 08:34:59 AM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):

I should be receiving this by email from various family and friends any day now... -eye roller-

What if you check your phone in your luggage? Or ditch the iPhone / Samsung S-series for a $10-ish phone for the trip? Still have the web, still have GPS, still have texting. I carry a phone like this all the time. If I wanted to travel out of the country all I'd have to do is remove the microSD card and leave it at home. Not much else on the phone after that. I'd carry a separate camera anyhow as I don't do social media for reasons of privacy.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 08:43:13 AM by Tasty Pinecones »

JLee

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2144 on: February 17, 2017, 09:46:05 AM »
Let us not forget the more run of the mill greed and fiscal irresponsibility the Trump family is indulging in weekly at taxpayer expense (total coincidence that Trump's businesses are benefitting from the expense, of course):

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-family%E2%80%99s-elaborate-lifestyle-is-a-%E2%80%98logistical-nightmare%E2%80%99-%E2%80%94-at-taxpayer-expense/ar-AAn1H4A?li=BBnb7Kz
While I can see the greed, I don't see the fiscal irresponsibility. I mean, even if he quadruples the expense of protecting a president to 200 million over his 4 year term, that's not even a rounding error in terms of the U.S. budget.

Please.
Color me unimpressed with outrage over .0001 percent of the federal budget.

0.0001% of the 2015 federal budget is $3.8 million.  Are you using alternative math?

accolay

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2145 on: February 17, 2017, 11:31:42 AM »
These 'outsiders' are the constituents who've been woken up from their apolitical slumber.

I hate the two party system - but if the progressives don't start getting out the right messaging and framing NOW to attract all the middle-of-the-road Trump supporters, I don't see how they'll ever be able to get those people back.

I agree with your rant...but none of it matters unless the sleepy outsiders get fired up enough to vote. People can march in the streets, have their rants, yell at the television and radio, if the Left can't win elections (which Republicans do well with their machine, Federal, state and local elections, which has built us up to where we are today) then we're never going to hear the end of this ridiculous bullshit. We wont be able to have an effective government of reasonable people, with reasonable compromise.

Pathetic really since the nation's memory and attention span is so short. Midterms are less than two years away, but we'll see if that's long enough for forgetfulness complacency.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2146 on: February 17, 2017, 11:45:29 AM »
By the way, if you want a quick sense of how "the right" is casting this (with a typical "tu quoque" bullshit argument, of course):

I should be receiving this by email from various family and friends any day now... -eye roller-

What if you check your phone in your luggage? Or ditch the iPhone / Samsung S-series for a $10-ish phone for the trip? Still have the web, still have GPS, still have texting. I carry a phone like this all the time. If I wanted to travel out of the country all I'd have to do is remove the microSD card and leave it at home. Not much else on the phone after that. I'd carry a separate camera anyhow as I don't do social media for reasons of privacy.

They can still search your luggage (and probably will if you reach this point).  I could buy a dumb phone but I don't really see the point in spending more money... I don't make phone calls so there's really no point.  How suspicious is it to travel without a phone?  More directly, what does it matter if you are suspicious?  Has anyone been detained for traveling with a wiped phone or no phone and how lon was that detention compared to someone traveling with full contacts (but no wrongdoing)?

dividendman

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2147 on: February 17, 2017, 12:21:22 PM »
Just mail the phone to yourself. That way when the package gets to customs, they won't have anyone to interrogate even if they do want access.

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2148 on: February 17, 2017, 04:11:00 PM »
You seriously don't see how unethical this is? If I take one measly dollar from a $10,000 charity drive I was in charge of to buy myself a coffee, I have still committed a serious breach of ethics, regardless of how tiny my impact was on the bottom line.
The article was focused on the increase in cost to protect Trump and his family due to their 'jet-setting lifestyle'. Are you arguing something else? Because then we would not be discussing the same things.

So you are saying you are fine with our president and his family adopting a jet-setting lifestyle the likes of which the office has never seen just because it doesn't represent a meaningful % of a $4 trillion budget? We shouldn't hold our president to any standards whatsoever of being personally responsible for his discretionary use of taxpayer funds for entirely personal gains? It doesn't matter that in addition to getting tons of free vacations that come with mega expensive private security, he is simultaneously profiting from both? And I suppose you would be cool with him stealing from the church collection plate while he's at it? Jesus man.
Meh. This is several different arguments wrapped up in one. I'm fine with some of them, such as the 'jet setting lifestyle.' This has been his lifestyle literally his entire life. I don't expect him to change significantly because he is the president - that I think would be unfair. I didn't expect Bush to not spend time in Texas or Obama to not go golfing in Hawaii, even though it would have not doubt been cheaper if they had stayed in Washington watching TV on the weekends.

Wow Mouse, you are getting to be just about as good at this as POTUS :)
Well if one wishes to discuss greed and graft and stealing from the government, that is fine, but this was not how the question was phrased, nor the main point of the article covered. I don't find paying for protection of the POTUS to be a great burden upon the country.

The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more important grievances to worry about.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #2149 on: February 17, 2017, 04:33:32 PM »

The sad truth of the matter is that Trump has a much larger family than our previous two presidents and they all have ample reason to travel. He also is in the unique position of having a young son attending better schools at he would likely get for him as president and probably having a wife who isn't too into the political scene and enjoys some space from him....

And at the end of the day they are not prisoners and we cover security. There is pretty much no getting around it costs a hell of a lot more to pay for security of the Trump family because they can afford to travel a whole hell of a lot and are generally going to expensive areas surrounded by people.

I would be pissed if it came out that he is using tax payer money to pay for huge portions of travel totally unrelated to security and were purely for personal business or entertainment. But it would be more of a general your a piece of shit feeling but there are much more important grievances to worry about.

Interesting article in WaPo in case you haven't seen it:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-familys-elaborate-lifestyle-a-logistical-nightmare--at-taxpayer-expense/2017/02/16/763cce8e-f2ce-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumptravel-530pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.22f3962f7de2

I get the reasons why protecting Trump will cost 8-15x more to protect Trump and his family more than it cost to protect Obama.* 
what irritates the hell out of me is that Trump *is* profiting from this.  He owns most of the businesses where he travels, and the added personnel rent rooms at whatever rate he charges them (and he just increased fees at Maralargo).
Just another conflict of interest that's becoming so routine these days.

*estimates put Obama's security detail at ~$97MM over all eight years.  NYC is spending $183MM alone to secure Trump Tower each year.