Author Topic: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?  (Read 346683 times)

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1600 on: January 31, 2017, 09:30:19 AM »
What happens if most of the civil servant and Cabinet positions go unfilled?

This probably isn't coincidence.  Trump has cleaned house at the State Department, which would normally oppose something as blatantly illegal as a muslim ban, leaving it with a skeleton crew of senior executives and basically incapable of standing up for America's interests.  Trump seems to have no regard for what is best for the country.  Your concerns about "what if" are to my eyes deliberate machinations. 

He's not taking advantage of unfilled positions to remake America into a totalitarian regime, he's instituted a totalitarian regime by purging senior levels of government of anyone who's not a Trump loyalist.  Instituting illegal policy is step two in the process, not step one.
Unfortunately the ban may be legal due to a clause in the Immigration Act that allows Trump to do exactly what he's doing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bc.marfeel.com/amp/www.nationalreview.com/article/444371/donald-trump-executive-order-ban-entry-seven-muslim-majority-countries-legal?client=ms-android-americamovil-us&espv=1

"Federal immigration law also includes Section 1182(f), which states: “Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate” (emphasis added).

 Section 1182(f) plainly and sweepingly authorizes the president to issue temporary bans on the entry of classes of aliens for national-security purposes. This is precisely what President Trump has done. In fact, in doing so, he expressly cites Section 1182(f), and his executive order tracks the language of the statute (finding the entry of aliens from these countries at this time “would be detrimental to the interests of the United States”)."

But is it still legal if they've obviously left open routes for people of the "minority" (i.e., Christian) religion to come to the US? That strikes me as singling out one religion, which is very definitely unconstitutional.
Also, does he actually need to show that there are national security reasons behind this? Because he left out a lot of countries that have been proven breeding grounds for terrorism, and they just happen to be countries his empire does business in. Where's his national security concern there? I think there's quite a bit to argue against this actually being done for security purposes, or that any of these people are "detrimental" to the U.S.
Not to mention, it's against the UN. Now, I understand that Trump wants to withdraw from the UN (another source of checks and balances against him--funny how he wants all of those to disappear) but he hasn't done so yet. I kinda hope he gets a slap from them for this asinine and inhumane action.

Gin - I agree, we shouldn't be "hoping" to reduce our rights and standards to those of the third world. But with Trump trying to alienate our allies and neighbors, and the rest of the GOP rushing to take away our civil rights, it's going to be a long, hard fight and I don't see how we can win all of it.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1601 on: January 31, 2017, 11:18:50 AM »
How exactly can the courts punish the President? If the courts rule that an action by the executive is unconstitutional, and the executive ignores the court ruling, then it doesn't really serve as a check unless others act. The legislature could in theory impeach, but does anyone see that happening soon? And what happens when impeachment is ignored, combined with private security supplementing secret service protection and high levels of law enforcement and military support for the President?

Our democracy is quite fragile when you have leadership that doesn't respect democratic norms or the rule of law. What happens when there's much more draconian measures introduced after an actual terrorist attack (even a small one)? We'll be told that the courts must be ignored because of national security. What do we do then?
Why would the court punish the president for unlawful laws? That doesn't happen, and shouldn't happen.  The court is not there to 'punish' lawmakers - it is there to check their power. The court would act by striking down the law. If TSA agents or DHS employees or whomever continue to act under a law that was struck down, they would need to be sued in the court by the people with standing. If they continue to ignore the court, the individual actors who are causing harm would need to be punished, but not the people who legally passed the law that was legally struck down.

The court doesn't punish the president for unlawful laws.  We are talking about ignoring a court order (issued because the court finds it likely the Executive order will be found unconstitutional).

In this case, the court issued an injunction against CBP detainng certain immigrants and some (not all) CBP officers refused to follow the court order.  Supposedly at the request of their superiors but that's just an issue of degree.

Quote
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agents defied the orders of federal judges regarding Donald Trump’s travel bans on Sunday, according to members of Congress and attorneys who rallied protests around the country in support of detained refugees and travellers from seven Muslim-majority countries.

At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1602 on: January 31, 2017, 11:25:50 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

Are there any police who don't ultimately report to the President?

SCOTUS has their own police force that reports directly to the justices, but that's the only one I know of. What's the structure for Capitol police?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1603 on: January 31, 2017, 11:29:25 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action

Are there any police who don't ultimately report to the President?

SCOTUS has their own police force that reports directly to the justices, but that's the only one I know of. What's the structure for Capitol police?

Aren't all state and local police departments independent of the federal government (instead reporting to State governors)?
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llorona

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1604 on: January 31, 2017, 11:36:43 AM »
Too much is happening too fast? All this was laid out long ago in his 100 day plan. I am continually surprised by people's surprise.

AS far as unconstitutional acts: Thank goodness we have checks and balances, and provisions in place to rectify bad laws.  The previous administration got slapped by the courts all the time over their actions. They took the licking and moved on.  The game will not end because of this.

Oh, I'm not surprised that he's enacting what's in the 100 day plan. However, I have been taken aback by the chaos including: the endless lies and insistence on distorting the number of attendees at the inauguration; baseless allegations of 3-5 million illegal ballots and voter fraud investigation; gag order/Twitter feud with the National Park Service; the bullying of our neighbor Mexico; provocation of China regarding the South Sea; sticking son-in-law Jared Kuchner in a senior adviser role; prioritization of Christian Syrian refugees when/if they are allowed to apply for refugee status in the future; clearing out entire State Department; and perhaps most ominously, appointing Bannon as the head of the National Security Council.

Need I continue?

So, yes, I stand by my original statement that too much is happening too fast. It's a game of smoke and mirrors. There's too much deception and diversion.

Check and balances? Where have you seen anyone in the government successfully take action to prevent the regime from bulldozing forward with their plans? The people who have tried - federal judges and the acting AG - have been tossed aside. It's also telling that four days into the presidency, the U.S. was downgraded from a full democracy to a flawed democracy according to the Economic Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index.

While this is anecdotal, many people in my life are scared of their government for the first time. 

This is not normal.


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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1605 on: January 31, 2017, 11:38:32 AM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
Yes. If individuals will not follow the law, then there is indeed a disconnect.  Officers not obeying a lawful injunction should indeed be sanctioned, as should the immediate superiors ordering such actions.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1606 on: January 31, 2017, 12:07:01 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.
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MasterStache

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1607 on: January 31, 2017, 12:16:10 PM »
Paul Ryan 2016 - "I do not think it is reflective of our principles, not just as a party, but as a country. And I think the smarter way to go in all respects is to have a security test, not a religious test. I do not think a Muslim ban is in our country's interest.”

Paul Ryan 2017 - Paul Ryan on Tuesday defended President Donald Trump's divisive executive order on refugees and immigration, arguing that while the rollout was bumpy, the policy is consistent with Republican principles.

I would agree with his arguments. The ban is not reflective of our countries principles but is indeed consistent with Republican principles.
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dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1608 on: January 31, 2017, 12:59:35 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.

I don't know if that's possible, but I would like to see it happen, and for any officers willfully defying the court order lose their jobs.  They take an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  If the court says "stop detaining people, it's probably not constitutional" they should listen.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1609 on: January 31, 2017, 01:02:11 PM »
http://usuncut.com/politics/syrian-family-voted-trump

Syrian family living in the US for years, voted for Trump.  Their family that they spend several years trying to get visas for, where arriving in the US and deported before the stay went into effect.  They thought because they were Christians, they would be ok with Trump's policies...


"I never thought the leopards would eat MY face" says woman who voted for the Leopards eating people's faces party.

RangerOne

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1610 on: January 31, 2017, 01:06:54 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

I suspect it is a mix of both. I don't like to assume grand political schemes are in the works and most conspiracy theories are bullshit.

In that respect I have to imagine that Trump took his advice from someone other than his Generals who would be more cautious and pragmatic in tampering with immigration policy. While I am pretty sure Trump was clueless, someone in his inner circle, like Bannon, must have guessed an order as hastily prepared as this would meet with strong resistance in the media and the court system. So someone likely discerned that it may be beneficial to create some conflict between the courts and the executive branch now and further polarize the republican base against the courts and the media.

Beyond that the EO is basically symbolic bullshit that stands to do nothing to improve security, so I can only assume someone wanted a political reaction since the EO is sure to get torn apart in the courts. If it were trying to be a real immigration lock down it would include unfriendly nations like the UAE. Legally also you can easily argue that this is technically not a Muslim ban even given its vague poorly written language. However it is equally easy to read between the lines and see how such a vague order could be implemented as a half ass temporary halt on Muslims coming to and from the country. The countries were clearly chosen for their lack of fiscal entanglement and Muslim majority populations.

Overall Trump's administration is setting a number of terrible precedents for his administration. He is showing an incompetent willingness to  use his power, without doing any due diligence, to make political plays without any caution for legal ramifications for average people. Though his base will rally behind him for now, some in slight denial and others because they couldn't give two shits about any of the countries on the list or people from them. 

I think even for those who think that we should hold off on admitting Muslim immigrants for whatever reason, you should have some concern for how the administration chooses to achieve those goals.

Trump is not some fucking Archangel raining terror down on Islam and bleeding red, white and blue. He is just a self centered man, with a lust for attention and power, with a gross level of ignorance about his office, being guide by a group political and power hungry sycophants with questionable political motives.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1611 on: January 31, 2017, 01:07:52 PM »

"I never thought the leopards would eat MY face" says woman who voted for the Leopards eating people's faces party.

This sentiment has been pretty common throughout history.
It's also surprising how many people are surprised that a guy who compaigned on building a wall and banning Muslims now is taking steps to build a wall and ban Muslims.
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nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1612 on: January 31, 2017, 01:13:23 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

The problem that I have with this strategy is that it can't work forever.  Its a fine strategy to have when you are in a ratings game and your only metric is whether you've misdirected most of the people to your tomfoolery.  The problem with being in political office is that you've literally got to fool everyone, all the time, an there are some very tenacious people out there that will keep digging.

You might get some orders through with minimal protest because the masses are distracted protesting something else, but if you do something really subversive and illegal - eventually (I hope) a few people are going to put it together and blow the lid off it.  That's what investigative journalism is at its core.
I'm anticipating big scandals after a year or so.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1613 on: January 31, 2017, 01:17:48 PM »
At this point, the court should be holding anyone involved in contempt, up to and including the president (although I imagine there is no paper trail of him ordering the officers to ignore the order).  The court should have asked the US Marshalls to enforce the order (ironic and scary since the Marshalls still technically report to the president, but that would at least let us know how broken the system is).

So the bottom line is no, individual citizens were not all obeying the court and our system of checks and balances seems (at least temporarily) broken.  I have hope that medium term we can fix this, but I do not rely solely on hope.  Hope must be realized by action
If staff in your immigration service have been ignoring a court order (eg by deporting people when the order specifically states that this should not be done, then the judge issuing the order should be taking the following actions -

1.  Order the head of the service responsible for the implementation of the order to appear before them, and require the police to enforce that order and produce the head of service,
2.  Require the head of service, on oath, to provide details of all persons deported,
3.  Require the service, at their expense, to return all of those persons who had been deported in contravention of the order to be USA as soon as possible, and on their return to provide them with access to legal advice    Any proposal to deport the person again not to be acted upon until a court hearing has determined its lawfulness,
4.  Hold the head of service in prison until actions 1 to 3 have been completed and the contempt of court discharged.
I don't know if that's possible, but I would like to see it happen, and for any officers willfully defying the court order lose their jobs.  They take an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  If the court says "stop detaining people, it's probably not constitutional" they should listen.
It is pretty much what has happened here in the UK when someone was deported contrary to a court order (the head of service was not imprisoned because it was more of a miscommunication than a deliberate defiance, but the rest did happen).  Contempt of court is taken extremely seriously here: it is the final remedy which enforces the rule of law.

Democracy is usually considered to be about voting, but voting only creates a democracy if the people voted into office obey the rule of law: "be you never so high, the law is above you" - as first set out in Magna Carta. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZosqiJISs
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NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1614 on: January 31, 2017, 01:19:52 PM »
The entire executive order is either the result of gross incompetence or a bullshit smoke screen pushed by Bannon to distract from other shit they are pulling in the background.

I suspect it is a mix of both. I don't like to assume grand political schemes are in the works and most conspiracy theories are bullshit.


I think there's also an element of staking out an extreme position you ultimately intend to walk back (to what you really wanted in the first place) in the name of "compromise."

He's also testing boundaries and loyalty. How will the courts respond? Will DHS defy court orders?

DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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cchrissyy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1615 on: January 31, 2017, 01:54:50 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1616 on: January 31, 2017, 01:56:03 PM »

I think there's also an element of staking out an extreme position you ultimately intend to walk back (to what you really wanted in the first place) in the name of "compromise."

...or perhaps it's even more simple.  DJT sees himself as a great negotiator, and thinks the best thing to do is strike first and exploit weaknesses to gain leverage. Then you can force more concessions.

Works ok when you are negotiating between businesses, but government isn't business.  When speaking about domestic affairs, your side "winning" usually means another group of Americans loses. DJT has not yet shown that he is capable of striking a deal that's mutually agreeable for all parties involved  when he has the leverage to smash his opponents.
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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1617 on: January 31, 2017, 02:09:33 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

cchrissyy

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1618 on: January 31, 2017, 02:13:55 PM »
Right, I didn't say it's a new policy, just news to me.

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1619 on: January 31, 2017, 02:15:12 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1620 on: January 31, 2017, 02:21:28 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 02:24:48 PM by Midwest »

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1621 on: January 31, 2017, 04:10:58 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.

and... at this point Trump is the pres and he bears full responsibility for doing the right thing regardless of what anyone else does/would do.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1622 on: January 31, 2017, 04:24:52 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
I've never put much stock in that argument.  The Democratic party is a private party, and for his entire career as a Senator Sanders has been an independent.  Why would the Democrats NOT favor a lifelong party member over someone who only joins them out of convenience?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1623 on: January 31, 2017, 04:57:55 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.

and... at this point Trump is the pres and he bears full responsibility for doing the right thing regardless of what anyone else does/would do.

Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

Warlord1986

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1624 on: January 31, 2017, 05:04:14 PM »
I'm torn between going full on doomsday prepper and considering what I'll do if the Fourth Reich actually rises and DHS starts goose-stepping down Pennsylvania Avenue, and telling myself to quit overreacting. There is no in between.

I've already downloaded this app to my phone for secure communications. https://whispersystems.org
If anyone knows of anything better, please let me know.

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1625 on: January 31, 2017, 05:05:44 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
I've never put much stock in that argument.  The Democratic party is a private party, and for his entire career as a Senator Sanders has been an independent.  Why would the Democrats NOT favor a lifelong party member over someone who only joins them out of convenience?

Nereo - There is much consternation about Trump's lack of care for constitutional protections for citizens of this country.  My point, which I'll stand by, is that neither party put forth a candidate advocating a good platform in that regard.  We can argue that Trump is worse, but both candidates were piss poor on rolling back big brother.

The response I received was - Sanders.  If the democratic establishment cared anything about this topic (they don't and neither do the Repubs), they would have found someone besides Clinton to run.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1626 on: January 31, 2017, 05:33:12 PM »
Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

I don't think anyone is blaming Trump for the 100-mile rule. My original point was that DHS has demonstrated loyalty to Trump in spite of a court order, AND that they have actual, legal jurisdiction way beyond where most people realize, AND that they can bend the Fourth Amendment (not that it matters much when you're already ignoring the courts) within that 100 mile zone.

If they, by and large, are more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution and United States Code, it's a big problem.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1627 on: January 31, 2017, 05:38:06 PM »
Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

I don't think anyone is blaming Trump for the 100-mile rule. My original point was that DHS has demonstrated loyalty to Trump in spite of a court order, AND that they have actual, legal jurisdiction way beyond where most people realize, AND that they can bend the Fourth Amendment (not that it matters much when you're already ignoring the courts) within that 100 mile zone.

If they, by and large, are more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution and United States Code, it's a big problem.

The theme seems to be, however, sudden worries about constitutional infringements under Trump.  Constitutional erosion has been going on for quite some time.  I didn't vote for Obama, but one of the things I hoped he might do, is roll back govt over reach.  That certainly didn't happen.

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1628 on: January 31, 2017, 05:40:52 PM »
Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

I don't think anyone is blaming Trump for the 100-mile rule. My original point was that DHS has demonstrated loyalty to Trump in spite of a court order, AND that they have actual, legal jurisdiction way beyond where most people realize, AND that they can bend the Fourth Amendment (not that it matters much when you're already ignoring the courts) within that 100 mile zone.

If they, by and large, are more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution and United States Code, it's a big problem.

The theme seems to be, however, sudden worries about constitutional infringements under Trump.  Constitutional erosion has been going on for quite some time.  I didn't vote for Obama, but one of the things I hoped he might do, is roll back govt over reach.  That certainly didn't happen.

Constitutional infringements are at a whole different level when the executive disobeys the judiciary.

nereo

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1629 on: January 31, 2017, 05:47:29 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
I've never put much stock in that argument.  The Democratic party is a private party, and for his entire career as a Senator Sanders has been an independent.  Why would the Democrats NOT favor a lifelong party member over someone who only joins them out of convenience?

Nereo - There is much consternation about Trump's lack of care for constitutional protections for citizens of this country.  My point, which I'll stand by, is that neither party put forth a candidate advocating a good platform in that regard.  We can argue that Trump is worse, but both candidates were piss poor on rolling back big brother.

The response I received was - Sanders.  If the democratic establishment cared anything about this topic (they don't and neither do the Repubs), they would have found someone besides Clinton to run.

I'll agree that the respective choices weren't acceptable or optimal for a huge swath of the country.  I just don't agree when people use terms like "rigged" (a Sander's and Trump sound bite).  It wasn't rigged.  There was no reason why should have supported Sanders.  What the DNC *did* fail to do was support a Democrat without so much political baggage.

"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1630 on: January 31, 2017, 07:38:49 PM »
Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

I don't think anyone is blaming Trump for the 100-mile rule. My original point was that DHS has demonstrated loyalty to Trump in spite of a court order, AND that they have actual, legal jurisdiction way beyond where most people realize, AND that they can bend the Fourth Amendment (not that it matters much when you're already ignoring the courts) within that 100 mile zone.

If they, by and large, are more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution and United States Code, it's a big problem.

The theme seems to be, however, sudden worries about constitutional infringements under Trump.  Constitutional erosion has been going on for quite some time.  I didn't vote for Obama, but one of the things I hoped he might do, is roll back govt over reach.  That certainly didn't happen.

Constitutional infringements are at a whole different level when the executive disobeys the judiciary.

As opposed to the Obama administration - http://aclj.org/executive-power/federal-court-throws-rulebook-at-obamas-intentionally-deceptive-doj-in-scorching-smackdown

For the record, executive branch should obey court order.  I disagree with both actions.

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1631 on: January 31, 2017, 07:49:21 PM »
Quote
DHS police (customs, border patrol, etc.) have jurisdiction within 100 miles of any border (including water), which covers ~60% of U.S. citizens, and most of the left-leaning population centers.

I just learned that too   (sigh)

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

That's not a new policy under Trump.  If a reasonable candidate had run on fixing constitutional infringements like that, they might have one.

LOL https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

and.... the democratic party actively worked to rig their primary against him.  I disagreed with a lot of what Sanders had to say.  On civil liberties for citizens, however, he would have been a better choice than either of the 2 main party candidates.

To add - You don't have to be an advocate of open borders to disagree with unconstitutional search policies for citizens.
I've never put much stock in that argument.  The Democratic party is a private party, and for his entire career as a Senator Sanders has been an independent.  Why would the Democrats NOT favor a lifelong party member over someone who only joins them out of convenience?

Nereo - There is much consternation about Trump's lack of care for constitutional protections for citizens of this country.  My point, which I'll stand by, is that neither party put forth a candidate advocating a good platform in that regard.  We can argue that Trump is worse, but both candidates were piss poor on rolling back big brother.

The response I received was - Sanders.  If the democratic establishment cared anything about this topic (they don't and neither do the Repubs), they would have found someone besides Clinton to run.

I'll agree that the respective choices weren't acceptable or optimal for a huge swath of the country.  I just don't agree when people use terms like "rigged" (a Sander's and Trump sound bite).  It wasn't rigged.  There was no reason why should have supported Sanders.  What the DNC *did* fail to do was support a Democrat without so much political baggage.

In the context of this discussion, Sanders was thrown as a response for a candidate favoring reigning in constitutional over reach..  Rigged may not be the best term, but the DNC certainly did everything in their power to put him away and get Clinton in the general. 

On this topic, neither the democratic establishment nor the republican establishment seems concerned about correcting the situation. 

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1632 on: January 31, 2017, 09:14:27 PM »
Dragoncar - I'm not a Trump fanboy, but blaming Trump for the years old 100 mile non-constitution zone less than 2 weeks into his presidency is ludicrous. 

If you want to blame him for blocking people from this country that should have been allowed in I'll agree with you.  4 years from now when the 100 mile non-constitution zone still exists, I'll agree with you that he should have done something about it.  2 weeks in, not so much.

I don't think anyone is blaming Trump for the 100-mile rule. My original point was that DHS has demonstrated loyalty to Trump in spite of a court order, AND that they have actual, legal jurisdiction way beyond where most people realize, AND that they can bend the Fourth Amendment (not that it matters much when you're already ignoring the courts) within that 100 mile zone.

If they, by and large, are more loyal to Trump than to the Constitution and United States Code, it's a big problem.

The theme seems to be, however, sudden worries about constitutional infringements under Trump.  Constitutional erosion has been going on for quite some time.  I didn't vote for Obama, but one of the things I hoped he might do, is roll back govt over reach.  That certainly didn't happen.

Constitutional infringements are at a whole different level when the executive disobeys the judiciary.

As opposed to the Obama administration - http://aclj.org/executive-power/federal-court-throws-rulebook-at-obamas-intentionally-deceptive-doj-in-scorching-smackdown

For the record, executive branch should obey court order.  I disagree with both actions.
Interesting read. Thank you.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1633 on: January 31, 2017, 09:19:21 PM »

I think there's also an element of staking out an extreme position you ultimately intend to walk back (to what you really wanted in the first place) in the name of "compromise."

...or perhaps it's even more simple.  DJT sees himself as a great negotiator, and thinks the best thing to do is strike first and exploit weaknesses to gain leverage. Then you can force more concessions.

Works ok when you are negotiating between businesses, but government isn't business.  When speaking about domestic affairs, your side "winning" usually means another group of Americans loses. DJT has not yet shown that he is capable of striking a deal that's mutually agreeable for all parties involved  when he has the leverage to smash his opponents.
While Trump may be an extreme example of this, certainly it has been a while since an administration has neglected to use their leverage to the fullest extent possible to accomplish their policy goals.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1634 on: January 31, 2017, 10:21:25 PM »

Constitutional infringements are at a whole different level when the executive disobeys the judiciary.

As opposed to the Obama administration - http://aclj.org/executive-power/federal-court-throws-rulebook-at-obamas-intentionally-deceptive-doj-in-scorching-smackdown


Those are not parallel cases.  In the story you link, as far as I can tell (and I certainly didn't read every related opinion), Obama's DOJ obeyed the injunction once issued.

Moreover, the underlying issue, giving extensions to undocumented workers who entered the US as a child, was hardly an infringement of individual constitutional rights.

So yes, I stand by my assertion that detaining/deporting people up without due process is a whole different level.

I agree that lawyers should be slapped down for lying, and they probably got off easy.

Midwest

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1635 on: February 01, 2017, 07:37:47 AM »

Constitutional infringements are at a whole different level when the executive disobeys the judiciary.

As opposed to the Obama administration - http://aclj.org/executive-power/federal-court-throws-rulebook-at-obamas-intentionally-deceptive-doj-in-scorching-smackdown


Those are not parallel cases.  In the story you link, as far as I can tell (and I certainly didn't read every related opinion), Obama's DOJ obeyed the injunction once issued.

Moreover, the underlying issue, giving extensions to undocumented workers who entered the US as a child, was hardly an infringement of individual constitutional rights.

So yes, I stand by my assertion that detaining/deporting people up without due process is a whole different level.

I agree that lawyers should be slapped down for lying, and they probably got off easy.

One of the assertions in the case I quoted is that DOJ lawyers lied to the court in order to keep the program in place.  In both instances, the executive branch was thumbing their noses at the court.  The end does not justify the means in either case.

Kris

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1636 on: February 01, 2017, 08:28:47 AM »
A friend shared this on FB, and I couldn't decide exactly where to put it, but this seemed like the best spot. Feel free to copy and share on FB.

Why not take a break from negativity and learn about each other? 😃
1. Who are you named after?
There is a literal, fascist administration in office in the United States.
2. Last time you cried?
Resist it, unerringly, with all your strength.
3. Soda or water?
A woman, scheduled to be deported, attempted suicide in the airport.
4. What is your favorite lunch meat?
Donate to the ACLU.
5. Longest relationship?
Law enforcement is illegally enforcing the ban, even though a stay has been issued by the court system.
6. Do you still have your tonsils?
Soon, we won't have the courts to depend on, either.
7. Would you bungee jump?
Get your news from Twitter, not Facebook. FB manipulates what you see. Getting an account is easy. Ask me who to follow.
8. How many years at current job?
Stand up for minorities and women's health and freedom of the press.
9. Do you untie your shoes when you take them off?
Make sure to take care of your mental health in this tumultuous and stressful time.
10. Roller coasters?
Punching unapologetic actual Nazis is illegal and you definitely should do it every chance you get.
11. Favorite ice cream?
Many of the Democrats are folding. Keep the heat on them, keep writing and calling them.
12. Favorite thing to do?
This is not normal. Don't act like it is. You can't ignore this.
13. Football or baseball?
Steve Bannon has said himself he is a Leninist who wants to destroy and remake society, and he is manipulating the POTUS to sow chaos as a pretext for crushing civil liberties and others seizing permanent power.
14. Leggings or Jeans?
Install the Signal or Wickr app to make sure your messages are end-to-end encrypted and stop using FB messenger, Google Voice/Hangouts, and texting, which are easy to spy on.
15. What are you listening to?
Keep up with everything going on, do not let up.
16. Favorite Color?
Prepare for the increased repression of American citizens. It is coming.
17. Tattoos?
Keep in mind that he is constantly lying to us. Do not believe anything he says. If he says the sky is blue, look up and check it, yourself, or save time and assume that he's lying.
18. Married?
They still haven't fixed the pipes in Flint, Michigan.
19. Hair color?
Stop being complicit.
20. Eye color?
Stop being obedient.
21. Favorite to eat?
Stop fooling yourself that you won't have to fight somehow.
22. Scary movies or happy endings?
Stop being scared. Stand up for what you believe in.
23. Android or iPhone?
America is a country of immigrants. We are better because of our diversity.
24. Chevy, Ford, or Buick?
Elevate people less privileged than you who are being actively repressed.
25. Favorite holiday?
It will get worse. You are stronger than you think, and you can take it.
26. Beer or wine?
You have to. We don't have any other options.
27. Night owl or morning?
Your children and grandchildren will remember you by what you did during these years.
28. Favorite day of the week?
Dissent is American. *All* enemies, foreign *and domestic.*
Come on....someone do this with me. 😄 Let's have some fun, take a break from negativity and learn about each other.
Copy and paste into your status and just change your answers!
(I stole this: Writer unknown)
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1637 on: February 01, 2017, 09:45:40 AM »
I'm torn between going full on doomsday prepper and considering what I'll do if the Fourth Reich actually rises and DHS starts goose-stepping down Pennsylvania Avenue, and telling myself to quit overreacting. There is no in between.

I've already downloaded this app to my phone for secure communications. https://whispersystems.org
If anyone knows of anything better, please let me know.

Signal. It's end-to-end encryption and they hang onto the bare minimum of your data that they are legally required to. That is, they can give out the phone numbers you've contacted (via warrant) but that's all. You can also make secure calls. However, the person on the other end needs to have Signal (or maybe just any encryption app?) for it to be secure. Get your friends and family on board.
MonkeyJenga is setting up a webpage called "I Marched Now What" for the resistance (seems silly to call it that, but that's basically what it is--resisting Trump) and I'm working on the "prudent paranoia" page as I have a lot of friends and family who work in security. If you want, MJ is putting this stuff up in her journal and she's going to let people know when the page is up and running.

robartsd

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1638 on: February 01, 2017, 10:25:42 AM »
I'm torn between going full on doomsday prepper and considering what I'll do if the Fourth Reich actually rises and DHS starts goose-stepping down Pennsylvania Avenue, and telling myself to quit overreacting. There is no in between.

I've already downloaded this app to my phone for secure communications. https://whispersystems.org
If anyone knows of anything better, please let me know.

Signal. It's end-to-end encryption and they hang onto the bare minimum of your data that they are legally required to. That is, they can give out the phone numbers you've contacted (via warrant) but that's all. You can also make secure calls. However, the person on the other end needs to have Signal (or maybe just any encryption app?) for it to be secure. Get your friends and family on board.
MonkeyJenga is setting up a webpage called "I Marched Now What" for the resistance (seems silly to call it that, but that's basically what it is--resisting Trump) and I'm working on the "prudent paranoia" page as I have a lot of friends and family who work in security. If you want, MJ is putting this stuff up in her journal and she's going to let people know when the page is up and running.

Increasing the general awareness of how technology can make your communications more secure and private is a positive impact.

sol

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1639 on: February 01, 2017, 11:00:10 AM »
Increasing the general awareness of how technology can make your communications more secure and private is a positive impact.

Good job finding the silver lining in the destruction of American ideals.

America may never again be the great nation it once aspired to be, but at least the remaining pockets of underground resistance patriots will learn to love crypto.  So I guess that's a win?

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1640 on: February 01, 2017, 11:10:09 AM »
Increasing the general awareness of how technology can make your communications more secure and private is a positive impact.

Good job finding the silver lining in the destruction of American ideals.

America may never again be the great nation it once aspired to be, but at least the remaining pockets of underground resistance patriots will learn to love crypto.  So I guess that's a win?

Shouldn't we take those where we can get them?

A mom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1641 on: February 01, 2017, 11:41:19 AM »
Thank you so much for this! I had a friend post on Facebook that she was tired of seeing political posts and wanted to go back to seeing pictures of people's dinners.

A friend shared this on FB, and I couldn't decide exactly where to put it, but this seemed like the best spot. Feel free to copy and share on FB.

Why not take a break from negativity and learn about each other? 😃
1. Who are you named after?
There is a literal, fascist administration in office in the United States.
2. Last time you cried?
Resist it, unerringly, with all your strength.
3. Soda or water?
A woman, scheduled to be deported, attempted suicide in the airport.
4. What is your favorite lunch meat?
Donate to the ACLU.
5. Longest relationship?
Law enforcement is illegally enforcing the ban, even though a stay has been issued by the court system.
6. Do you still have your tonsils?
Soon, we won't have the courts to depend on, either.
7. Would you bungee jump?
Get your news from Twitter, not Facebook. FB manipulates what you see. Getting an account is easy. Ask me who to follow.
8. How many years at current job?
Stand up for minorities and women's health and freedom of the press.
9. Do you untie your shoes when you take them off?
Make sure to take care of your mental health in this tumultuous and stressful time.
10. Roller coasters?
Punching unapologetic actual Nazis is illegal and you definitely should do it every chance you get.
11. Favorite ice cream?
Many of the Democrats are folding. Keep the heat on them, keep writing and calling them.
12. Favorite thing to do?
This is not normal. Don't act like it is. You can't ignore this.
13. Football or baseball?
Steve Bannon has said himself he is a Leninist who wants to destroy and remake society, and he is manipulating the POTUS to sow chaos as a pretext for crushing civil liberties and others seizing permanent power.
14. Leggings or Jeans?
Install the Signal or Wickr app to make sure your messages are end-to-end encrypted and stop using FB messenger, Google Voice/Hangouts, and texting, which are easy to spy on.
15. What are you listening to?
Keep up with everything going on, do not let up.
16. Favorite Color?
Prepare for the increased repression of American citizens. It is coming.
17. Tattoos?
Keep in mind that he is constantly lying to us. Do not believe anything he says. If he says the sky is blue, look up and check it, yourself, or save time and assume that he's lying.
18. Married?
They still haven't fixed the pipes in Flint, Michigan.
19. Hair color?
Stop being complicit.
20. Eye color?
Stop being obedient.
21. Favorite to eat?
Stop fooling yourself that you won't have to fight somehow.
22. Scary movies or happy endings?
Stop being scared. Stand up for what you believe in.
23. Android or iPhone?
America is a country of immigrants. We are better because of our diversity.
24. Chevy, Ford, or Buick?
Elevate people less privileged than you who are being actively repressed.
25. Favorite holiday?
It will get worse. You are stronger than you think, and you can take it.
26. Beer or wine?
You have to. We don't have any other options.
27. Night owl or morning?
Your children and grandchildren will remember you by what you did during these years.
28. Favorite day of the week?
Dissent is American. *All* enemies, foreign *and domestic.*
Come on....someone do this with me. 😄 Let's have some fun, take a break from negativity and learn about each other.
Copy and paste into your status and just change your answers!
(I stole this: Writer unknown)

Luck12

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1642 on: February 01, 2017, 01:12:00 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/trump-immigrants/515310/ 

From the article:

"The language is vague, but immigration law experts I spoke with on background said it might mean that millions of legal immigrants who have ever received public assistance—as half of native-born Americans currently do—would be targeted for deportation. "

I left a message on one of my senators' vmails to fight this vigorously.   

deadlymonkey

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1643 on: February 01, 2017, 01:36:25 PM »
I'm honestly torn about the Supreme Court. 

On one hand it doesn't look this nominee is horrible.  If anything he is adamantly on the record as not showing any deference to other branches and focusing only on the law, which might be good about inevitable Trump related legal challenges.

He is very conservative though and tends to side with religion interests.

On the other hand, Garland was also an exemplary middle of the road choice that was previously approved on voice vote and we see how the (R)s treated him, so turnaround is fair play.

If the dems do roadblock him, the nuclear option will be used, and political capital will be spent now instead of on a possible future selection (like if RBG dies).

Just sad that after 200+ years, our most unique political activity (the senate) where the minority party holds significant power will inevitably be neutered with the nuclear option (if not now, then soon).

SisterX

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1644 on: February 01, 2017, 01:50:44 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/trump-immigrants/515310/ 

From the article:

"The language is vague, but immigration law experts I spoke with on background said it might mean that millions of legal immigrants who have ever received public assistance—as half of native-born Americans currently do—would be targeted for deportation. "

I left a message on one of my senators' vmails to fight this vigorously.

So, once again we see that he's not going to "create" jobs, he's just going to open up a bunch by kicking people out of the country and making it harder for certain groups to get the jobs that do exist. Lovely.
At least for some of this we can count on the big tech companies to strongly come out against it. I can think of at least four people in my office who would be directly affected by the second order.

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1645 on: February 01, 2017, 01:52:54 PM »
Increasing the general awareness of how technology can make your communications more secure and private is a positive impact.

Good job finding the silver lining in the destruction of American ideals.

America may never again be the great nation it once aspired to be, but at least the remaining pockets of underground resistance patriots will learn to love crypto.  So I guess that's a win?
Of course, America was never as great as it aspired to be, so it would be hard to lay this at the feet of a president who has only been in office a few days, when the trend has been away from greatness for at least two decades.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1646 on: February 01, 2017, 01:57:36 PM »
I'm honestly torn about the Supreme Court. 

On one hand it doesn't look this nominee is horrible.  If anything he is adamantly on the record as not showing any deference to other branches and focusing only on the law, which might be good about inevitable Trump related legal challenges.

He is very conservative though and tends to side with religion interests.

On the other hand, Garland was also an exemplary middle of the road choice that was previously approved on voice vote and we see how the (R)s treated him, so turnaround is fair play.

If the dems do roadblock him, the nuclear option will be used, and political capital will be spent now instead of on a possible future selection (like if RBG dies).

Just sad that after 200+ years, our most unique political activity (the senate) where the minority party holds significant power will inevitably be neutered with the nuclear option (if not now, then soon).
This is how I feel.  The dems are going to tilt at this windmill, when it could be reasonable to accept him, and burn out before the next appointment, which could be much, much worse. Of course, the classic, ever helpful "But they did it too!!!" Will ring out from people interested only in their own needs, and not true progress for the country.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Gin1984

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1647 on: February 01, 2017, 01:58:52 PM »
I'm honestly torn about the Supreme Court. 

On one hand it doesn't look this nominee is horrible.  If anything he is adamantly on the record as not showing any deference to other branches and focusing only on the law, which might be good about inevitable Trump related legal challenges.

He is very conservative though and tends to side with religion interests.

On the other hand, Garland was also an exemplary middle of the road choice that was previously approved on voice vote and we see how the (R)s treated him, so turnaround is fair play.

If the dems do roadblock him, the nuclear option will be used, and political capital will be spent now instead of on a possible future selection (like if RBG dies).

Just sad that after 200+ years, our most unique political activity (the senate) where the minority party holds significant power will inevitably be neutered with the nuclear option (if not now, then soon).
If he sides with religion, he is not following our Constitution.  Because what you really means is that he allows for Christians to enforce their beliefs on others.

Lagom

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1648 on: February 01, 2017, 02:03:43 PM »
I mean, I totally agree this is a stolen supreme court pick (and anyone on the right claiming otherwise is about as disingenuous as one can be), but frankly it could have been a lot worse. I know a lot of analysts are saying he's similar to Scalia but from what I can tell he's not as outright hypocritically partisan as that old bastard was. And he actually has some history of standing up to executive authority.

Regardless, I don't think it matters if "political capital" is expended now or for a hypothetical future pick. the Repubs long ago proved that they will never cooperate whatsoever either way so if they didn't go nuclear now they would just do it next time and the outcome would be the same. Plus, if the Dems take back congress in 2018, they'll have a much easier time stonewalling picks until a moderate is put forth.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 03:05:36 PM by Lagom »

dragoncar

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Re: What are the realistic impacts of a Trump presidency?
« Reply #1649 on: February 01, 2017, 02:11:56 PM »
Just got word of a draft EO adding additional countries to the ban.  If signed, this will cost me a lot in travel already booked.  Might have to move to another country (if wife's family can not visit, I'm sure this will be the result).  This is not good for America and really depressing. 

Why didn't I travel last year????