Author Topic: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?  (Read 103335 times)

MoonShadow

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #200 on: August 14, 2015, 04:49:37 PM »
To me trump is just another in a long series of clowns to represent the seamy underbelly of the conservative movement.

He's not really different from any of the past john birch society favorites:

Michele Bachman, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan..

Same impotent expression of the same vocal minority.

He's vile, but then they always are.

You always seem like such a rational, empathetic  kind of guy.

clifp

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #201 on: August 15, 2015, 02:46:11 AM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

forummm

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #202 on: August 15, 2015, 07:54:34 AM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

I think most politicians always put their own needs first. Sometimes the greater need (their own perceived interest) requires them to do something that looks like putting the party first, but in reality is a calculated way to continue their political career. Everything from voting against your preferences on bills due to party leader discipline (you're doing it so they keep you on the good committees and help you fund-raise instead of some sense of loyalty), to saying you'll honor the party's nominee (lets you keep your speaking gigs and book deals and Fox News job) is self-interested behavior. If you are not Trump, you could lose everything going for you if you go against the party. It's fear not love that drives their behavior.

ender

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #203 on: August 15, 2015, 10:13:52 AM »
Sadly the gipper ran for the governor of California and won. He had governing experience.

Right, but he had no governing experience when he ran for Governor of California.  Ditto for Schwarzenegger.  That's why I said they usually do it first, but I guess Trump is breaking new ground by just shooting straight for the top job in the country right out of the gate?

Two weeks ago I was sure he was a joke candidate and it was only a matter of time before he flamed out in spectacular fashion.  But he's continued to say and do things that would sink any normal politician, and he's apparently only getting more popular.  He's the presumptive Republican nominee, at this point, with everyone else squabbling for second place.  Like it or not, he's the modern face of the GOP. 

I'm not sure what that would mean for old guard GOP like Boehner.  How does someone like that try to govern with a singing chimpanzee clown in the White House?


I think one thing that Trump is doing incredibly effectively is capitalizing on people's significant dislike of "normal politicians." He might be many things, but a stereotypical politician is absolutely not one of them.

I would be curious if people on average dislike the thought of another "politician" as president more than having an asshole as president. If it's the former, Trump is running his campaign absolutely perfectly.

sol

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #204 on: August 15, 2015, 10:37:25 AM »
I would be curious if people on average dislike the thought of another "politician" as president more than having an asshole as president. If it's the former, Trump is running his campaign absolutely perfectly.

I know several people who claim to like Trump because they claim that most politicians are corporatists and are just owned by billionaires.  I'm not sure the solution to this problem is to elect a billionaire directly, though.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #205 on: August 15, 2015, 10:44:48 AM »

I would be curious if people on average dislike the thought of another "politician" as president more than having an asshole as president. If it's the former, Trump is running his campaign absolutely perfectly.

I know several people who claim to like Trump because they claim that most politicians are corporatists and are just owned by billionaires.  I'm not sure the solution to this problem is to elect a billionaire directly, though.

Right. This is akin to saying there's too much lobbying in Washington. The only solution is to elect a lobbyist. That way we can cut out the middle man.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #206 on: August 15, 2015, 11:04:51 AM »

I would be curious if people on average dislike the thought of another "politician" as president more than having an asshole as president. If it's the former, Trump is running his campaign absolutely perfectly.

I know several people who claim to like Trump because they claim that most politicians are corporatists and are just owned by billionaires.  I'm not sure the solution to this problem is to elect a billionaire directly, though.

Right. This is akin to saying there's too much lobbying in Washington. The only solution is to elect a lobbyist. That way we can cut out the middle man.
But then that would create a lobyist for lobyists

MoonShadow

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #207 on: August 16, 2015, 08:23:36 PM »
I would be curious if people on average dislike the thought of another "politician" as president more than having an asshole as president. If it's the former, Trump is running his campaign absolutely perfectly.

I know several people who claim to like Trump because they claim that most politicians are corporatists and are just owned by billionaires.  I'm not sure the solution to this problem is to elect a billionaire directly, though.

IDK, he does own himself, so at least you know he's being honest.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #208 on: August 16, 2015, 10:15:10 PM »
IDK, he does own himself, so at least you know he's being honest.

Not really.  His self-ownership doesn't mean he's honest; it just means we get to hear any dishonesty directly from the horse's mouth (instead of through the horse's mouthpiece).

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #209 on: August 17, 2015, 08:16:27 AM »
Still poling well according to MSN.  JB is heading to the bottom and oh my a person of color is in second place and gaining strong. 

bwall

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #210 on: August 17, 2015, 09:06:39 AM »
Still poling well according to MSN.  JB is heading to the bottom and oh my a person of color is in second place and gaining strong.

I thought that Jeb might win the nomination. Then he began speaking and it occurred to me that he might not be smarter than his brother after all.

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #211 on: August 17, 2015, 09:18:49 AM »
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/08/16/yes-donald-trump-can-win-but-heres-what-it-will-take/

The jist of the article is that Trump will need a world class organization and volunteers out the wazoo.   I think he has the organizational skills to pull that off.   

bwall

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #212 on: August 17, 2015, 10:10:30 AM »
Interesting article, especially considering the author's credentials. I never considered Trump to be s serious candidate. Not even remotely. But now  I am re-assessing that conclusion.

Jeremy E.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #213 on: August 17, 2015, 10:16:42 AM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

I think most politicians always put their own needs first. Sometimes the greater need (their own perceived interest) requires them to do something that looks like putting the party first, but in reality is a calculated way to continue their political career. Everything from voting against your preferences on bills due to party leader discipline (you're doing it so they keep you on the good committees and help you fund-raise instead of some sense of loyalty), to saying you'll honor the party's nominee (lets you keep your speaking gigs and book deals and Fox News job) is self-interested behavior. If you are not Trump, you could lose everything going for you if you go against the party. It's fear not love that drives their behavior.
In general, Seanators, House of reps, governors, etc. are supposed to put the needs of their state first, not the needs of their party.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #214 on: August 17, 2015, 11:48:45 AM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

I think most politicians always put their own needs first. Sometimes the greater need (their own perceived interest) requires them to do something that looks like putting the party first, but in reality is a calculated way to continue their political career. Everything from voting against your preferences on bills due to party leader discipline (you're doing it so they keep you on the good committees and help you fund-raise instead of some sense of loyalty), to saying you'll honor the party's nominee (lets you keep your speaking gigs and book deals and Fox News job) is self-interested behavior. If you are not Trump, you could lose everything going for you if you go against the party. It's fear not love that drives their behavior.
In general, Seanators, House of reps, governors, etc. are supposed to put the needs of their state first, not the needs of their party.

Sometimes meeting the needs of their party is what allows them to meet the needs of their state. Politicians have a complicated dance between so many competing interests. Their own re-election and career advancement, their donors, their voters, their egos, the issues they personally care about, their party leaders, the media, etc. And you're doing this while spending 8 hours a day raising money. It's not a job I want.

Jeremy E.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #215 on: August 17, 2015, 12:03:04 PM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

I think most politicians always put their own needs first. Sometimes the greater need (their own perceived interest) requires them to do something that looks like putting the party first, but in reality is a calculated way to continue their political career. Everything from voting against your preferences on bills due to party leader discipline (you're doing it so they keep you on the good committees and help you fund-raise instead of some sense of loyalty), to saying you'll honor the party's nominee (lets you keep your speaking gigs and book deals and Fox News job) is self-interested behavior. If you are not Trump, you could lose everything going for you if you go against the party. It's fear not love that drives their behavior.
In general, Seanators, House of reps, governors, etc. are supposed to put the needs of their state first, not the needs of their party.

Sometimes meeting the needs of their party is what allows them to meet the needs of their state. Politicians have a complicated dance between so many competing interests. Their own re-election and career advancement, their donors, their voters, their egos, the issues they personally care about, their party leaders, the media, etc. And you're doing this while spending 8 hours a day raising money. It's not a job I want.
I agree and I wouldn't want the job either, but first and formost before all other things they are SUPPOSED to put the needs of their state first.

MoonShadow

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #216 on: August 17, 2015, 12:25:25 PM »
I agree and I wouldn't want the job either, but first and formost before all other things they are SUPPOSED to put the needs of their state first.

Actually, they are supposed to honor their oath to the US consititution and lessor laws of the United States first.  I have never seen that happen, though.

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #217 on: August 17, 2015, 12:44:56 PM »


Everything Trump does is for his ego.

So Carson and Fiorina aren't Republicans yet because they've never won a primary?

I don't think that's at all clear. I think the difference is in style. He lets his ego sit front and center. They hide theirs behind poll tested rhetoric and obfuscation.

Fiorina won a primary, and she campaigned for Republican candidates in the past.  Carson said he'd support the Republican nominee and almost all of his position are within the mainstream Republican party, unlike Trump who supports single payer and has been campaigning as anti free trade.  Trumps recent conversion to Pro life seems suspicious to me.   Fundamentally, the point of being in a party is that some of the time (not all of the time) you put the needs of the party above your own. Trump has never done that.

I think most politicians always put their own needs first. Sometimes the greater need (their own perceived interest) requires them to do something that looks like putting the party first, but in reality is a calculated way to continue their political career. Everything from voting against your preferences on bills due to party leader discipline (you're doing it so they keep you on the good committees and help you fund-raise instead of some sense of loyalty), to saying you'll honor the party's nominee (lets you keep your speaking gigs and book deals and Fox News job) is self-interested behavior. If you are not Trump, you could lose everything going for you if you go against the party. It's fear not love that drives their behavior.
In general, Seanators, House of reps, governors, etc. are supposed to put the needs of their state first, not the needs of their party.

Sometimes meeting the needs of their party is what allows them to meet the needs of their state. Politicians have a complicated dance between so many competing interests. Their own re-election and career advancement, their donors, their voters, their egos, the issues they personally care about, their party leaders, the media, etc. And you're doing this while spending 8 hours a day raising money. It's not a job I want.
I agree and I wouldn't want the job either, but first and formost before all other things they are SUPPOSED to put the needs of their state first.

That is true and therefore pork barrel spending is the rule.    I always wondered how our representatives "we represent our district" represent the 48% of the folks who didn't vote for them?   

It seems to me that even in bright red and blue states that a significant amount of people didn't vote for the winner.  I guess it is just winner take all?

I suppose that is a real advantage for Trump.   He can tell the Republican party to eat shit and die if he is elected.  He pretty much has told them that already. 

So he could be the first president in a long long time that isn't beholden to a party.   He can actually say to the voters "look,  I work for all of the US not just a party"

I'm also guessing that Fox will begin painting him as a nicer and nicer person.   Instead of this fictitious woman hating racist that the media has portrayed.    I can see him having tea with MK in a few weeks after her reeducation and just having a good old time.    I could see Univision kissing and making up with him.   I mean as it is he wouldn't spend a dime with them.  And if he doesn't then neither will the Dems.    I can see the other networks warming up to him as well.  They make a lot of money off of presidential election cycles.  One wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of the check writer come election time. 

Oh yeah and when he announces Marco Rubio as his running mate Florida now becomes viable.

As a Libertarian I love it that a New York Democrat is leading the Republican primary.    I don't think you can get much more centrist or main stream than to have a Democrat running as a Republican. 

I liked his response to the abortion question -- News guy "You used to be prochoice, what gives?"    DT - "I had some friends who had a kid they decided not to abort and that kid turned out awesome."      Great logic -- So if the kid had turned out to be a piece of shit then you would still be prochoice?


MoonShadow

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #218 on: August 17, 2015, 12:59:28 PM »

Oh yeah and when he announces Marco Rubio as his running mate Florida now becomes viable.

You know you are killing me, right?
Quote
As a Libertarian I love it that a New York Democrat is leading the Republican primary.    I don't think you can get much more centrist or main stream than to have a Democrat running as a Republican. 
As a libertarian (notice the capitalization, I did that on purpose) the idea of a true statist of either party that is elected that is not beholden to, or otherwise limited by, that party's official "principles" is more than a little scary to me.  If there were ever a time that the US could have a 'crack-up boom' period, it would be during those 4 years.

Quote

I liked his response to the abortion question -- News guy "You used to be prochoice, what gives?"    DT - "I had some friends who had a kid they decided not to abort and that kid turned out awesome."      Great logic

It's not about being logical, or even factual, it's about being memorable....

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/126916006856/wizard-wars

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #219 on: August 17, 2015, 01:11:03 PM »

Oh yeah and when he announces Marco Rubio as his running mate Florida now becomes viable.

You know you are killing me, right?
Quote
As a Libertarian I love it that a New York Democrat is leading the Republican primary.    I don't think you can get much more centrist or main stream than to have a Democrat running as a Republican. 
As a libertarian (notice the capitalization, I did that on purpose) the idea of a true statist of either party that is elected that is not beholden to, or otherwise limited by, that party's official "principles" is more than a little scary to me.  If there were ever a time that the US could have a 'crack-up boom' period, it would be during those 4 years.

Quote

I liked his response to the abortion question -- News guy "You used to be prochoice, what gives?"    DT - "I had some friends who had a kid they decided not to abort and that kid turned out awesome."      Great logic

It's not about being logical, or even factual, it's about being memorable....

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/126916006856/wizard-wars

You may be on to something with the "memorable" thought.   Saaaaaaay,  You don't think this whole run for President thing is just a ploy to ramp up his name recognition?  Say it ain't so!

sol

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #220 on: August 17, 2015, 01:18:46 PM »
As a Libertarian I love it that a New York Democrat is leading the Republican primary.    I don't think you can get much more centrist or main stream than to have a Democrat running as a Republican. 

Oh please tell me you're joking.  Trump is a little (okay a lot) light on policies, but the ones he does have are farther right than anyone else in the field.  He's out-crazying Ted Cruz, which is saying something.

Jeremy E.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #221 on: August 17, 2015, 02:38:46 PM »
Donald Trump is lucky to have so much money. He has hired a great group of people to write him an immigration policy, as well as a great group of people to coach him on debates and how to answer any question asked of him, and what to say everytime he publicly talks. He still blurts out his own crap occasionally, and kudos to him for going through the coaching. But I still don't want him to be president.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #222 on: August 17, 2015, 02:41:28 PM »
I know most all politicians have people help them with debate questions etc. but I'm guessing Trump has far more of it. It's funny when he's asked a question that he hasn't gone over or doesn't remember, he blurts out something that doesn't answer the question to divert attention away.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #223 on: August 17, 2015, 02:51:12 PM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?

Thanks for that link,

How about that a top socialist and a top conservative both think his immigration policy is the best document since the Magna Carta --

Like him or not,  Trump is in tune with low income voters in this country.   I was in Branson Missouri a few weeks ago and the Radisson Hotel seemed completely staffed by Hispanic speaking individuals.   It was weird.   And don't think the reason for this is that the natives don't apply.   Me thinks it has to do with the idea that foreign workers will keep their mouths shut,  work overtime without pay and generally be easier manipulated by their employers. 

Quote from the above referenced piece.   

 "A recent poll from Kellyanne Conway found that a plurality of Americans wish to see a moratorium on immigration for the time being. And a separate poll by KellyAnne Conway found that Hispanics, by nearly a seven to one ratio, want employers to hire workers already in the country rather than importing foreign workers to fill jobs. Black voters support this measure by a ratio of almost 30 to 1. As Matloff explains, both of these groups suffer every day from the federal government’s policy of adding millions of new competitors to the labor pool.

The immigrant to native population ratio is already at it’s highest level in 105 years, since during the height of the European immigration wave. The Census Bureau forecasts that in a few short years, driven by our visa issuances to poor countries, the immigrant to native population ration will explode past all known historical markers."

So yeah,  the simple solution is to stop all illegal immigration and reduce legal immigration.

But Trump goes even further --- He will send some 3 million Dream act folks packing as well.   That will really boost him with the working poor.   The corporate overlords at the RNC won't like that.   



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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #224 on: August 17, 2015, 02:55:33 PM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?
Trump suffers from the same narcissism so distasteful in Obama, so that currently puts me in the "Anybody But Trump" population.  His position on H-1Bs as linked above, however, seems well-reasoned and perhaps attractive to many (e.g., software engineers) here.

beltim

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #225 on: August 17, 2015, 02:57:20 PM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?

Thanks for that link,

How about that a top socialist and a top conservative both think his immigration policy is the best document since the Magna Carta --

Which ones?  Can you provide links?

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #226 on: August 17, 2015, 03:00:39 PM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?
Trump suffers from the same narcissism so distasteful in Obama, so that currently puts me in the "Anybody But Trump" population.  His position on H-1Bs as linked above, however, seems well-reasoned and perhaps attractive to many (e.g., software engineers) here.

It is more of his finger flipping to the Republicans.   He is going towards Hillary and gang.   She can't be soft on immigration when even her own Hispanic constituents are opposed to it.    By the time the general election comes along Bernie and Trump will be fighting over who has the toughest immigration policy.
 The whole "leave the borders open" policy has been driven by businesses wanting cheap labor and the Government to supplement their poor underpaid work force. 

And yes,  software, STEM and tech types take note the Donald is your friend on this one.   

Bob W

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #227 on: August 17, 2015, 03:05:26 PM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?

Thanks for that link,

How about that a top socialist and a top conservative both think his immigration policy is the best document since the Magna Carta --
\

It is in the link above?

Here are the quotes

"Norm Matloff, a professor at UC Davis, has written extensively about H-1B visa abuses, and his work is widely cited in the H-1B reform community.

Matloff, a self-described Democrat and “longtime admirer of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
,” gave Donald Trump’s H-1B policy “an A+” and was"

"Conservative icon Ann Coulter and author of new book Adios America has called Trump’s policy paper, “The greatest political document since the Magna Carta.”"

Ann Coulter is a rock star in the conservative party and I might mention a woman. 




Which ones?  Can you provide links?

forummm

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #228 on: August 17, 2015, 03:17:03 PM »
Donald Trump is lucky to have so much money. He has hired a great group of people to write him an immigration policy, as well as a great group of people to coach him on debates and how to answer any question asked of him, and what to say everytime he publicly talks. He still blurts out his own crap occasionally, and kudos to him for going through the coaching. But I still don't want him to be president.

I think it's the opposite. Everyone else has advisors telling them talking points to say and everything they say in a debate is poll-tested. Trump is saying what he is intending to say. I think he believes/means a lot of it, but is also just saying certain things to be popular. He has hardly any advisors so far.

Trump suffers from the same narcissism so distasteful in Obama

Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #229 on: August 17, 2015, 03:36:28 PM »
Trump suffers from the same narcissism so distasteful in Obama
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?
His announcement of Bin Laden's death struck me that way.  See http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54058.html.  Listening to it when it was first given, there seemed too much about "I" and "my".  See comments to that article as well.  One could find others (e.g., google Obama narcissism) but that was the one that struck me most forcefully.  As always, YMMV.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #230 on: August 17, 2015, 03:51:37 PM »
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

I don't mean to accuse this particular poster, but on a national scale there are people who are uncomfortable with Obama's attitude because he is black. 

Just like a woman can't sound to enthusiastic or competent without being labeled a bitch, for some people listening to a black man talk authoritatively about national identity will think he comes off as entitled or self important.  It's a challenge that all politicians who are not senior white males will face at some point in their careers.

And it's an easy card to play to scare up opposition.  We all carry the residual stereotypes of our personal upbringing, and appeals to those stereotypes resonate with us even when we think we know better.  I can't listen to a fat person talk about any issue related to self control or hard work without part of my brain screaming hypocrite, even if I have no idea about why they are fat.

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #231 on: August 17, 2015, 04:09:24 PM »
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

I don't mean to accuse this particular poster, but on a national scale there are people who are uncomfortable with Obama's attitude because he is black.
No doubt there are, but as stated in the referenced post the concern is about narcissism in a president whether that be Obama or Trump (or, for that matter, anyone else).

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #232 on: August 17, 2015, 04:13:39 PM »
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

I don't mean to accuse this particular poster, but on a national scale there are people who are uncomfortable with Obama's attitude because he is black. 


There is some of that, certainly, but I don't think that is a fair response to the accusation that Obama is a narcissist.  Obama is a narcissist.  But then, so is every other person that has been a president, has been a candidate for president, or has considered running for the presidency after they were 30.  I would know, because I'm a narcissist too, and I still find the idea  offensive that, since I'm ambitious & confident in my own abilities, that I have a social disorder.  Any congressman, senator, federal judge, or presidential appointee that is not a narcissist should resign immediately, because if they are not confident that they are the right person for the job, how the hell could anyone else be so confident?

forummm

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #233 on: August 17, 2015, 05:44:09 PM »
Trump suffers from the same narcissism so distasteful in Obama
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?
His announcement of Bin Laden's death struck me that way.  See http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54058.html.  Listening to it when it was first given, there seemed too much about "I" and "my".  See comments to that article as well.  One could find others (e.g., google Obama narcissism) but that was the one that struck me most forcefully.  As always, YMMV.

Interesting take on it. I don't have the same reaction. My general thought is that every president is pretty far on the ego scale. Just to run for the office you have to think highly of yourself. And once you win, there are huge amounts of people telling you how great you are all the time (and a bunch of people criticizing you too, but it's easy to dismiss those as partisans because they usually are).

But just between Bush II and Obama, I think Bush was far more arrogant, assertive that he knew what was best, and bullied people into getting his way. "I'm the decider" for example. He was pretty authoritarian and used a lot of "I, me, my". Swagger was his trademark. His entire re-election campaign was about how "he" kept us safe (you know after that huge attack he didn't keep us safe for). But on the other hand, Obama didn't even really get that involved in shaping legislation like the ACA or Dodd-Frank until Congress just couldn't bring things to resolution. He's been very decentralized in his approach all along--much to his disadvantage I would say. He's been reluctant to even push his weight around on many issues. Perhaps due to concerns about the racial stereotyping that Sol mentions. I'm certain that he's modified his behavior on that basis in quite a few ways. If I had to rank the most recent presidents on narcissism I would say
1) Bush II
2) Clinton/Reagan
3) Bush I/Obama
4) Carter

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #234 on: August 17, 2015, 06:31:43 PM »

1) Bush II
2) Clinton/Reagan
3) Bush I/Obama
4) Carter

I would have to agree with this ranking.  Carter would definately be on the bottom, and Obama isn't much for self-promotion since winning his final election.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #235 on: August 17, 2015, 06:57:40 PM »
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

I don't mean to accuse this particular poster, but on a national scale there are people who are uncomfortable with Obama's attitude because he is black. 


There is some of that, certainly, but I don't think that is a fair response to the accusation that Obama is a narcissist.  Obama is a narcissist.  But then, so is every other person that has been a president, has been a candidate for president, or has considered running for the presidency after they were 30.  I would know, because I'm a narcissist too, and I still find the idea  offensive that, since I'm ambitious & confident in my own abilities, that I have a social disorder.  Any congressman, senator, federal judge, or presidential appointee that is not a narcissist should resign immediately, because if they are not confident that they are the right person for the job, how the hell could anyone else be so confident?

It seems to me this passage clearly supports the fairness of the response to the accusation that Obama is a narcissist, because his narcissism and/or attitude are being judged in his capacity as president and in comparison to other presidents and presidential candidates, not the general population.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #236 on: August 17, 2015, 08:10:56 PM »
Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?

I don't mean to accuse this particular poster, but on a national scale there are people who are uncomfortable with Obama's attitude because he is black. 


There is some of that, certainly, but I don't think that is a fair response to the accusation that Obama is a narcissist.  Obama is a narcissist.  But then, so is every other person that has been a president, has been a candidate for president, or has considered running for the presidency after they were 30.  I would know, because I'm a narcissist too, and I still find the idea  offensive that, since I'm ambitious & confident in my own abilities, that I have a social disorder.  Any congressman, senator, federal judge, or presidential appointee that is not a narcissist should resign immediately, because if they are not confident that they are the right person for the job, how the hell could anyone else be so confident?

It seems to me this passage clearly supports the fairness of the response to the accusation that Obama is a narcissist, because his narcissism and/or attitude are being judged in his capacity as president and in comparison to other presidents and presidential candidates, not the general population.

If this is a relative scale of narcissism, Obama isn't even close to the top of the list.

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #237 on: August 17, 2015, 08:20:56 PM »

Narcissism: "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type."

Self-confidence: "a feeling of trust in one's abilities, qualities, and judgment."

I agree that any good president - in fact, any good leader - needs self-confidence.  It is likely nobody running for president lacks it.  Where one crosses the line from self-confidence over to narcissism is a debatable issue.

The thing about really good leaders, however, is that they subjugate any overt narcissistic tendencies and instead spread credit liberally.  Anyone who has worked for multiple bosses will likely confirm that the ones who give credit to their subordinates are "better" bosses than the ones who stress what they themselves did. 

It seems a fair criticism of Bush II to observe that he was oblivious to poor performances in his administration.  E.g., "Heckuva job, Brownie" was indicative of that type of failing, not narcissism.

It seems a fair criticism of Obama and Trump to observe that both have grandiose views of their own talents and a craving for admiration. 

Whether any given president or presidential candidate crosses the self-confidence/narcissism line is probably in the eye of the beholder.  It would be interesting if folks could cite announcements by other presidents analogous to Obama's Bin Laden one and compare the "I ..." phrases to "they ..." phrases.  E.g., when Truman announced the atomic bomb, the only two uses of the pronoun "I" occur in the last paragraph, and even there in the context of Truman making recommendations to a Congress that would make the final decisions.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #238 on: August 17, 2015, 08:53:05 PM »
Very well said, MDM.  I actually share your opinion about the Bin Laden announcement, which rubbed me the wrong way too.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #239 on: August 18, 2015, 12:26:22 AM »


Narcissism: "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type."

Self-confidence: "a feeling of trust in one's abilities, qualities, and judgment."

I agree that any good president - in fact, any good leader - needs self-confidence.  It is likely nobody running for president lacks it.  Where one crosses the line from self-confidence over to narcissism is a debatable issue.

The thing about really good leaders, however, is that they subjugate any overt narcissistic tendencies and instead spread credit liberally.  Anyone who has worked for multiple bosses will likely confirm that the ones who give credit to their subordinates are "better" bosses than the ones who stress what they themselves did. 

It seems a fair criticism of Bush II to observe that he was oblivious to poor performances in his administration.  E.g., "Heckuva job, Brownie" was indicative of that type of failing, not narcissism.

It seems a fair criticism of Obama and Trump to observe that both have grandiose views of their own talents and a craving for admiration. 

Whether any given president or presidential candidate crosses the self-confidence/narcissism line is probably in the eye of the beholder.  It would be interesting if folks could cite announcements by other presidents analogous to Obama's Bin Laden one and compare the "I ..." phrases to "they ..." phrases.  E.g., when Truman announced the atomic bomb, the only two uses of the pronoun "I" occur in the last paragraph, and even there in the context of Truman making recommendations to a Congress that would make the final decisions.

The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.

Ie. If you have a negative opinion about any politician it is likely that your own biases are responsible for your subsequent "gut reactions" about whether they are narcissistic (or evil or incompetent....)or not.

Bush standing on an aircraft carrier with a banner with a banner reading "mission accomplished," is clearly narcissistic, because he was claiming credit for a victory that history proves was non-existent.

One's gut feeling about obama's announcement of Bin Laden's death?  Not so much. He was announcing an event that actually took place.

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #240 on: August 18, 2015, 12:32:49 AM »
The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

milesdividendmd

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What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #241 on: August 18, 2015, 01:05:56 AM »
The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

I must have missed the part where you shared an actual word count of "I dids" and "we dids" for different politicians, and the part where you shared the evidence that this count is predictive of anything (effectiveness, psychological personality types, administration loyalty?)

Short of that, the criticism holds I think.

Probably not wise to put too much stock in ones own opinion about the narcissistic tendencies of politicians, short of clowns who say stuff like,

“I'm really rich." Or who constantly refer to oneself in the third person.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 01:25:11 AM by milesdividendmd »

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #242 on: August 18, 2015, 06:17:53 AM »
The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

I must have missed the part where you shared an actual word count of "I dids" and "we dids" for different politicians, and the part where you shared the evidence that this count is predictive of anything (effectiveness, psychological personality types, administration loyalty?)

Short of that, the criticism holds I think.

Probably not wise to put too much stock in ones own opinion about the narcissistic tendencies of politicians, short of clowns who say stuff like,

“I'm really rich." Or who constantly refer to oneself in the third person.

This is of course an internet forum, not a refereed journal.  People share opinions here.  Apparently yours differs from mine.  Ok. 

Forummm had asked me (emphasis added), "Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?"  So I did. 

milesdividendmd

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #243 on: August 18, 2015, 08:37:51 AM »

The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

I must have missed the part where you shared an actual word count of "I dids" and "we dids" for different politicians, and the part where you shared the evidence that this count is predictive of anything (effectiveness, psychological personality types, administration loyalty?)

Short of that, the criticism holds I think.

Probably not wise to put too much stock in ones own opinion about the narcissistic tendencies of politicians, short of clowns who say stuff like,

“I'm really rich." Or who constantly refer to oneself in the third person.

This is of course an internet forum, not a refereed journal.  People share opinions here.  Apparently yours differs from mine.  Ok. 

Forummm had asked me (emphasis added), "Can you provide an example or two of what you see as Obama's narcissism?"  So I did.

Right. I'm glad you shared your opinion. It was interesting and fun to read.

Since it's an Internet forum I merely pointed out that your labeling of obama's narcissism was little more than a gestalt individual impression and thus worthy of suspicion.

With Trump it's easy to find actual evidence of his narcissism that rises above the level of subjective impression.

Jeremy E.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #244 on: August 18, 2015, 08:49:09 AM »

Narcissism: "extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type."

Self-confidence: "a feeling of trust in one's abilities, qualities, and judgment."

I agree that any good president - in fact, any good leader - needs self-confidence.  It is likely nobody running for president lacks it.  Where one crosses the line from self-confidence over to narcissism is a debatable issue.

The thing about really good leaders, however, is that they subjugate any overt narcissistic tendencies and instead spread credit liberally.  Anyone who has worked for multiple bosses will likely confirm that the ones who give credit to their subordinates are "better" bosses than the ones who stress what they themselves did. 

It seems a fair criticism of Bush II to observe that he was oblivious to poor performances in his administration.  E.g., "Heckuva job, Brownie" was indicative of that type of failing, not narcissism.

It seems a fair criticism of Obama and Trump to observe that both have grandiose views of their own talents and a craving for admiration. 

Whether any given president or presidential candidate crosses the self-confidence/narcissism line is probably in the eye of the beholder.  It would be interesting if folks could cite announcements by other presidents analogous to Obama's Bin Laden one and compare the "I ..." phrases to "they ..." phrases.  E.g., when Truman announced the atomic bomb, the only two uses of the pronoun "I" occur in the last paragraph, and even there in the context of Truman making recommendations to a Congress that would make the final decisions.
+1 well said

MDM

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #245 on: August 18, 2015, 08:50:19 AM »
...it's easy to find actual evidence of ... narcissism that rises above the level of subjective impression.

I'll try again:
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

As noted, I'm not saying Trump isn't - rather, that both Trump and Obama are.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 08:52:01 AM by MDM »

forummm

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #246 on: August 18, 2015, 09:46:38 AM »
The problem with this analysis is that it is extremely subjective and completely unscientific.
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.


I guess I don't really care (look at me being narcissistic already--33% of words to start the sentence!) about this issue. But I had some memory of a Bush re-election ad where he was walking down a hall in slow motion with patriotic music and a voiceover about how he did this and he did that. I just quickly searched to see if I could find it. I couldn't, but here were the first 2 I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FxL242-z6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgS_qPsTfmQ

He says "I" around 15 times in the 90 seconds. Maybe those will be interpreted as not the right kind of "I". And maybe landing on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit and giving a speech with a "mission accomplished" banner behind him is interpreted as "well it doesn't say Bush accomplished it". And in the 9/11 address he said "I [did]" a few times. I don't find any of these problematic.

But the whole exercise is very subjective. I think it's hard to talk about what you're doing as president and why you did it without saying you did it. Obama's 10 minute Bin Laden speech includes just a few "I" statements about halfway through. He was describing how it took place. OK. I don't find it problematic.

Now, Trump is off-the-charts in self-love. I don't think any president in the last 38 years is in his league.

bwall

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #247 on: August 18, 2015, 10:21:16 AM »
Now, Trump is off-the-charts in self-love. I don't think any president in the last 38 years is in his league.

I believe that this assessment is still an understatement.

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #248 on: August 18, 2015, 10:23:01 AM »
How about that immigration policy The Donald released?

Thanks for that link,

How about that a top socialist and a top conservative both think his immigration policy is the best document since the Magna Carta --
\

It is in the link above?

Here are the quotes

"Norm Matloff, a professor at UC Davis, has written extensively about H-1B visa abuses, and his work is widely cited in the H-1B reform community.

Matloff, a self-described Democrat and “longtime admirer of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT)
,” gave Donald Trump’s H-1B policy “an A+” and was"

"Conservative icon Ann Coulter and author of new book Adios America has called Trump’s policy paper, “The greatest political document since the Magna Carta.”"

Ann Coulter is a rock star in the conservative party and I might mention a woman. 




Which ones?  Can you provide links?

Ah, sorry.  I hadn't clicked on that link and I thought it was a link to his actually policy.  But I don't think calling Norm Matloff a socialist who thinks Trumps planks the best document since the Magna Carta is at all accurate. He clearly is only talking about the H1-B portion of the immigration policy, which is a reasonably centrist position.  That portion is in clear contrast to the unconstitutional portions of Trumps immigration plan, such as ending birthright citizenship.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-trumps-rise-hard-line-immigration-ideas-take-hold-in-gop/2015/08/17/85dbbf3e-4506-11e5-846d-02792f854297_story.html?hpid=z1

milesdividendmd

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Re: What are Donald Trump's Real Motives in Running for President?
« Reply #249 on: August 18, 2015, 10:52:09 AM »

...it's easy to find actual evidence of ... narcissism that rises above the level of subjective impression.

I'll try again:
I'd be happy to defer to an objective, scientific measure of narcissism and it's impact on leadership.  If anyone knows how to do so, please advise.

Lacking that, observing the frequency a leader says "I did" instead of "they did" or at least "we did" has been a decent proxy for people I've encountered in my career.  Again, if someone has a better it would be great to learn.

As noted, I'm not saying Trump isn't - rather, that both Trump and Obama are.

Right.

And I'm saying that there is ample evidence of Trump's narcissism, and thus far you've only presented subjective feelings in support of Obama's.

Ie you have this theory about the importance of the pronoun "I" but you provide no evidence that

1. Obama  uses "I" more than other presidents.

Or

2.  The use of the pronoun "I" is actually significant.

So basically Trump is demonstrably narcissistic, while you just have a feeling about Obama.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!