Author Topic: What's really going on out in the country? Why  (Read 140386 times)

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #750 on: January 12, 2017, 09:56:27 AM »
Churches don't need government to be successful.


Cool. Then let's have them start paying their taxes!
How do you define profit for a church?

Churches don't need government to be successful, but government can certainly kill a church.  Taxing a church be seen as prohibiting the free exercise of religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I was challenging her assumption that churches don't need government to be successful. I don't think I'm going to derail the thread too much by answering your question. However, I disagree with your argument. I would say, on the contrary, the religious exemption has forced the IRS to decide what’s a religion, and thus has entangled church and state in the worst way.
That is a really good point, kind of like the way financial benefits to a spouse has lead to the gov defining what is "marriage"

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #751 on: January 12, 2017, 09:56:40 AM »

Churches don't need government to be successful.


Cool. Then let's have them start paying their taxes!
How do you define profit for a church?

Churches don't need government to be successful, but government can certainly kill a church.  Taxing a church be seen as prohibiting the free exercise of religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I was challenging her assumption that churches don't need government to be successful. I don't think I'm going to derail the thread too much by answering your question. However, I disagree with your argument. I would say, on the contrary, the religious exemption has forced the IRS to decide what’s a religion, and thus has entangled church and state in the worst way.
That is a really good point, kind of like the way financial benefits/exemption to a spouse has lead to the gov defining what is "marriage"
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:22:47 AM by Greenback Reproduction Specialist »

MrMoogle

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #752 on: January 12, 2017, 10:06:28 AM »
Churches don't need government to be successful.


Cool. Then let's have them start paying their taxes!
How do you define profit for a church?

Churches don't need government to be successful, but government can certainly kill a church.  Taxing a church be seen as prohibiting the free exercise of religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I was challenging her assumption that churches don't need government to be successful. I don't think I'm going to derail the thread too much by answering your question. However, I disagree with your argument. I would say, on the contrary, the religious exemption has forced the IRS to decide what’s a religion, and thus has entangled church and state in the worst way.
I missed your point then.  Why do churches need government to be successful?

I would say most modern American churches would have a pretty hard time being financially solvent without the tax laws that effectively mean that the IRS decides what is a religion and what is not in this country.
I think we're talking two different things.  What is the government providing to churches that a society does not?  Those tax laws would be government using it's power on them, churches don't need that to be successful.  Churches have been around for a long time where there was little government, in fact some where de facto governments. 

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #753 on: January 12, 2017, 10:08:24 AM »
Churches don't need government to be successful.


Cool. Then let's have them start paying their taxes!
How do you define profit for a church?

Churches don't need government to be successful, but government can certainly kill a church.  Taxing a church be seen as prohibiting the free exercise of religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I was challenging her assumption that churches don't need government to be successful. I don't think I'm going to derail the thread too much by answering your question. However, I disagree with your argument. I would say, on the contrary, the religious exemption has forced the IRS to decide what’s a religion, and thus has entangled church and state in the worst way.
I missed your point then.  Why do churches need government to be successful?

I would say most modern American churches would have a pretty hard time being financially solvent without the tax laws that effectively mean that the IRS decides what is a religion and what is not in this country.
I think we're talking two different things.  What is the government providing to churches that a society does not?  Those tax laws would be government using it's power on them, churches don't need that to be successful.  Churches have been around for a long time where there was little government, in fact some where de facto governments.

Religions have been around a long time. Churches have historically (before the advent of democracies) been either governments of their own, or institutions that helped to prop up governments. (Monarchies, for example.) In both cases, tax laws existed to foster them, and the governments decided whether they were legitimate or not, and whether to marginalize them or not.

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #754 on: January 12, 2017, 10:24:55 AM »
Modern churches in America -- let's deal with our current situation rather than going back hundreds of years to critique --  are like non-profit charities, they bring people together to pray, to socialize, to serve the poor and homeless, to conduct ceremonies like marriages, baptisms, funerals, to provide religious education, etc.

They are, generally, not political.  Why on Earth should they be taxed?   Because some people don't like churches and want to punish them?  Because a few are frauds and all should pay the price?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:27:50 AM by KBecks »

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #755 on: January 12, 2017, 10:25:25 AM »
Kris, what are your thoughts on the ACA carving out special exemptions for people of specific religions, specifically the Amish faith?

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #756 on: January 12, 2017, 10:30:56 AM »
Modern churches in America -- let's deal with our current situation rather than going back hundreds of years to critique --  are like non-profit charities, they bring people together to pray, to socialize, to serve the poor and homeless, to conduct ceremonies like marriages, baptisms, funerals, to provide religious education, etc.

They are, generally, not political.  Why on Earth should they be taxed?   Because some people don't like churches and want to punish them?  Because a few are frauds and all should pay the price?

Ideally, yes.

But come on. Let's be honest about the government's role in legitimizing certain churches -- and organizations that claim to be churches but are really profit-making ventures -- and giving them tax-exempt status to continue their goals, even those churches whose goals are at least partly political or commercial in nature.

Lagom

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #757 on: January 12, 2017, 11:46:49 AM »
Libertarianism is about less government and more freedom.  I am also interested in Anarchy, meaning, a self-governed stateless society.

 But practically for now I am conservative.  I would prefer no government and I tend to think all politicians are mostly the same and mostly self-serving. 

My biggest concern for marriage or whatever type of "marriage benefit" is to protect children from abuse and abandonment.  But we don't need government marriage for that, but some sort of legal record of who the child's mother and father are.  Social security is tough only as long as it exists.  If SS is gradually phased out, people will adapt.  For now it would be cruel and stupid to eliminate spousal social security. 

In a free society, people will choose how to arrange their finances and plan for old age or death and disability.  The larger problem is a willfully abandoned partner.  Divorce does offer spousal support to someone who stayed at home and then was dumped.  People in need would rely more on charity than government controlled theft and redistribution.

Good thing we have lots of laws that protect children from abuse and abandonment, by heterosexual and homosexual couples alike.

I do agree that if we theoretically did something like replace Social Security (and other benefits) with a UBI, it wouldn't matter much if the survivor benefits were phased out, but as you say, in the current system it would be terribly cruel to simply eliminate that benefit.

In our current society, I find I have ridiculous amounts of flexibility to arrange my finances and plan for old age and death and disability, even with the big bad government "stealing" all of my hard earned money. There's lots of room for improvement, but anarchy isn't remotely realistic in a country of our size.

As for shrinking the government, I really don't think that can be called a conservative issue any more. There are now probably equally small minorities of Democrats/Republicans that actually advocate for that, with the rest being libertarians that have varying degrees of sincerity in that belief (e.g. the ones that still support strict border controls).

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #758 on: January 12, 2017, 04:32:56 PM »
Modern churches in America -- let's deal with our current situation rather than going back hundreds of years to critique --  are like non-profit charities, they bring people together to pray, to socialize, to serve the poor and homeless, to conduct ceremonies like marriages, baptisms, funerals, to provide religious education, etc.

They are, generally, not political.  Why on Earth should they be taxed?   Because some people don't like churches and want to punish them?  Because a few are frauds and all should pay the price?

Ideally, yes.

But come on. Let's be honest about the government's role in legitimizing certain churches -- and organizations that claim to be churches but are really profit-making ventures -- and giving them tax-exempt status to continue their goals, even those churches whose goals are at least partly political or commercial in nature.

The government does not legitimize churches.  People do.  If the church sucks, people won't go there. 

If there is fraud, it can be investigated.  But most of the time, churches are fine.  There is no reason to tax them. 

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #759 on: January 12, 2017, 05:11:57 PM »
Modern churches in America -- let's deal with our current situation rather than going back hundreds of years to critique --  are like non-profit charities, they bring people together to pray, to socialize, to serve the poor and homeless, to conduct ceremonies like marriages, baptisms, funerals, to provide religious education, etc.

They are, generally, not political.  Why on Earth should they be taxed?   Because some people don't like churches and want to punish them?  Because a few are frauds and all should pay the price?

Ideally, yes.

But come on. Let's be honest about the government's role in legitimizing certain churches -- and organizations that claim to be churches but are really profit-making ventures -- and giving them tax-exempt status to continue their goals, even those churches whose goals are at least partly political or commercial in nature.

The government does not legitimize churches.  People do. If the church sucks, people won't go there. 

If there is fraud, it can be investigated.  But most of the time, churches are fine.  There is no reason to tax them.

From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

Radagast

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #760 on: January 12, 2017, 08:31:07 PM »
^ OK, what rightwing conservative numbskull lunatic Trump supporter said that ?!?!?

Does calling people numbskulls make you feel superior?
"I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe- "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."
Henry David Thoreau

He has lots more, such as
"Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."

I read "On Civil Disobedience" a few weeks ago on the suggestion of a friend who I would describe as a stereotypical liberal (he uses the word "ecosystems" in ordinary conversation). I was surprised to see the opening sentence because previously I had only seen it used by conservative libertarians who either mis-attributed it or I did not pay attention to the attribution. Thoreau on the other hand was a nature freak and original antiwar protestor, role model and hero to hippies and liberals everywhere. It seems surprising to see him say things that go so strongly against the grain of current self-described liberalism.
"If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet." Barrack Obama

It seems to me that a lot of Americans fancy themselves ideological descendants of Thoreau in one way or another, but it seems like the current two sides each took some of what he said and ran with it in opposite directions apparently for the sole purpose of spiting each other. It is hard to imagine someone saying the following sentences: "I notice you are a supporter of the Tea Party. Henry Thoreau, my personal role model, was also a strong believer in limited government. Have you read any of his stuff?" But I can easily imagine this "Oh, I notice you are a supporter of the Tea Party. Lets never speak again."

In general, it seems to me like people are willfully adopting false generalizations of not only others but also themselves just so they can talk past each other and have an "other" to look down on. People seem to be regularly voting and acting against their own interests simply because of an arbitrarily defined and rather meaningless perceived social identity. I honestly don't understand it.

I think many posters on this website, from one side or the other, are ideological descendants of Thoreau. That's why we have these conversations at all. If we didn't have that mostly unrealized common ground we would be like everybody else, just living in our own echo chambers.

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #761 on: January 13, 2017, 08:11:44 AM »
There is a lot of potential common ground.  That is good!  The podcast where I got the description of anarchy as a goal, makes a point of saying that the government and politicians seek to divide us, so we are bickering with each other instead of demanding change from them, all of them, or reducing their influence and power and control mechanisms.

It should be all of us, the people, against them, the government.  But the political government wants us to get distracted with the petty things so they can usurp more power and control away from the states, away from the people.

If we could all be for less government that is great.  But also, less government means more personal responsibility and sometimes people want a caretaker to look out for them, and want to be saved by government.  That's a lie of course, the government does not save people.  People are much better off coming up with their own solutions and making their own choices.


KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #762 on: January 13, 2017, 08:14:37 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?   


Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #763 on: January 13, 2017, 08:17:58 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?

Sigh.

I said that having the IRS decide what is a legitimate religion and what is not is effectively a breach of separation of church and state. The IRS should not be picking religious winners and losers.

I also think it makes sense for the tax code to be much more revenue neutral for single vs. married people. That doesn't mean I want to "punish" marriage.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 08:20:23 AM by Kris »

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #764 on: January 13, 2017, 08:19:37 AM »
It is hard to imagine someone saying the following sentences: "I notice you are a supporter of the Tea Party. Henry Thoreau, my personal role model, was also a strong believer in limited government. Have you read any of his stuff?" But I can easily imagine this "Oh, I notice you are a supporter of the Tea Party. Lets never speak again."

They, the politicians, benefit if we hate each other.  The media makes money from dramatizing everything.  They want you to be all worked up and frothing at the mouth.  They want to play you and me as fools and they want to manipulate our emotions.  They create class wars.  They want division and racial tension.  Then they can make speeches and get votes to ensure their positions in power.

If everyone was getting along great, how would they raise money?   How would they promote and identify themselves?

It's so stupid.

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #765 on: January 13, 2017, 08:20:33 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?

Sigh.

I said that having the IRS decide what is a legitimate religion and what is not is effectively a breach of separation of church and state.

I also think it makes sense for the tax code to be much more revenue neutral for single vs. married people. That doesn't mean I want to "punish" marriage.

They don't have to legitimize religion, they have to only discern what not-for-profit means. 

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #766 on: January 13, 2017, 08:21:48 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?

Sigh.

I said that having the IRS decide what is a legitimate religion and what is not is effectively a breach of separation of church and state.

I also think it makes sense for the tax code to be much more revenue neutral for single vs. married people. That doesn't mean I want to "punish" marriage.

They don't have to legitimize religion, they have to only discern what not-for-profit means.

No.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/churches-defined

GuitarStv

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #767 on: January 13, 2017, 08:22:10 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?

Can you clearly explain the difference between a church and a cult to me?  (Particularly given that the church of Scientology is a non-profit and members would claim that they provide service to the community.)

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #768 on: January 13, 2017, 08:27:35 AM »
Guitarstv. No.  Kris can do it if she wants.  I am not concerned with Scientology.


Kris, I looked up the following article on tax exempt, non profit, etc.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/taxexempt-vs-nonprofit-24986.html

It is not about the religion, at all, as far as I can see.

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #769 on: January 13, 2017, 08:29:14 AM »
From a tax standpoint, of course it does. The church of Scientology has tax exempt status, despite the fact that it is basically a for-profit brainwashing company, because the government has legitimized it.

So you are saying Scientology is a cult, therefore all churches should be penalized with tax.   

Most church work is non profit and a service to the community.  You can find some bad examples, just as you can find some bad non profits.

But don't throw it all away because a few are screwed up.  It sounds as if you want to punish churches.  Why?

Sigh.

I said that having the IRS decide what is a legitimate religion and what is not is effectively a breach of separation of church and state.

I also think it makes sense for the tax code to be much more revenue neutral for single vs. married people. That doesn't mean I want to "punish" marriage.

They don't have to legitimize religion, they have to only discern what not-for-profit means.

No.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/churches-defined

Good info.  Now what's the problem?

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #770 on: January 13, 2017, 08:29:50 AM »
Guitarstv. No.  Kris can do it if she wants.  I am not concerned with Scientology.


Kris, I looked up the following article on tax exempt, non profit, etc.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/taxexempt-vs-nonprofit-24986.html

It is not about the religion, at all, as far as I can see.

Did you see the link I put up above? From the IRS website? Showing the criteria they use to determine whether a church is a church, and therefore tax exempt?

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #771 on: January 13, 2017, 08:35:28 AM »
Yes. After I posted.  Now, what's the problem?

Kris

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #772 on: January 13, 2017, 09:13:53 AM »
Yes. After I posted.  Now, what's the problem?

The point is is contradicts what you just said: that all they do is determine whether a church in nonprofit. They use many criteria to decide whether something is a church. Which means the IRS decides whether the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is legit or not. And the IRS should not be involved with conveying legitimacy or illegitimacy on a church.


infogoon

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #773 on: January 13, 2017, 09:14:09 AM »
"If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet." Barrack Obama

You should probably include the full quote.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business – you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

The big argument seems to be over what he meant by "that". To me, it seems like he's referring to the "roads and bridges" of the previous sentence, which makes sense given that he follows up with the Internet -- the government invests in infrastructure which people can then leverage to build a business. To others, it seems like he's referring to "a business" in the preceding clause, and claiming that entrepreneurs didn't actually create their business, which seems incredibly illogical to me but some people choose to interpret it that way.

deadlymonkey

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #774 on: January 13, 2017, 09:22:22 AM »
"If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet." Barrack Obama

You should probably include the full quote.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business – you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

The big argument seems to be over what he meant by "that". To me, it seems like he's referring to the "roads and bridges" of the previous sentence, which makes sense given that he follows up with the Internet -- the government invests in infrastructure which people can then leverage to build a business. To others, it seems like he's referring to "a business" in the preceding clause, and claiming that entrepreneurs didn't actually create their business, which seems incredibly illogical to me but some people choose to interpret it that way.

Yes it is a stupid way of interpreting it and based primarily off the fact that as soon as it was said, the news channels kept pouting out the soundbite of "you didn't built that" without the context that makes the whole saying very clear and patently true.

No one creates anything, even a business in a bubble.  They were educated with tax dollars, they probably started their business with loans that were unwritten by the SBA or other government agency, their employees get to work on public transportation or on publically funded roads.  Their products/warehouses/factories are protected by the funded police and military.  Their patents are protected by the federal government. 

Of course they worked hard and were creative in creating their business but to completely dismiss the role the government has played in their ability to do that is ignorant.

Chris22

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #775 on: January 13, 2017, 09:27:50 AM »
"If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that.  Somebody else made that happen.  The Internet didn’t get invented on its own.  Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet." Barrack Obama

You should probably include the full quote.

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business – you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn't get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

The big argument seems to be over what he meant by "that". To me, it seems like he's referring to the "roads and bridges" of the previous sentence, which makes sense given that he follows up with the Internet -- the government invests in infrastructure which people can then leverage to build a business. To others, it seems like he's referring to "a business" in the preceding clause, and claiming that entrepreneurs didn't actually create their business, which seems incredibly illogical to me but some people choose to interpret it that way.

Yes it is a stupid way of interpreting it and based primarily off the fact that as soon as it was said, the news channels kept pouting out the soundbite of "you didn't built that" without the context that makes the whole saying very clear and patently true.

No one creates anything, even a business in a bubble.  They were educated with tax dollars, they probably started their business with loans that were unwritten by the SBA or other government agency, their employees get to work on public transportation or on publically funded roads.  Their products/warehouses/factories are protected by the funded police and military.  Their patents are protected by the federal government. 

Of course they worked hard and were creative in creating their business but to completely dismiss the role the government has played in their ability to do that is ignorant.

But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #776 on: January 13, 2017, 09:35:04 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

bananarama

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #777 on: January 13, 2017, 09:43:32 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

That's a good point. I've always thought it was because glorifying the 'self-made man' was essentially implying that everyone else just didn't try hard enough. So then being poor becomes a moral failing and then it's easy to say that some people don't deserve government assistance or are freeloaders.

Maybe it's just differing outlooks. Aside from the social policy of Republicans (which is why I can never make myself vote for them), they just constantly seems so fucking down about shit. Everything is an attack on everything, no one is safe, everyone should be so scared all the time. Bah! Muslims! Transwomen! Liberal Professors! Women! Atheists!

Democrats have their faults for fucking sure, but they honestly never seem anything but optimistic about the future, and positive about our ability to make our world better for more of us. Also, their conventions aren't 90% older white men, which super helps. Also, democrats as a party are generally pro-science whereas the Republicans who speak out are usually.... very much not. In insane ways.

GuitarStv

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #778 on: January 13, 2017, 09:45:18 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

Libertarians, take heed.

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #779 on: January 13, 2017, 09:51:47 AM »
Yes. After I posted.  Now, what's the problem?

The point is is contradicts what you just said: that all they do is determine whether a church in nonprofit. They use many criteria to decide whether something is a church. Which means the IRS decides whether the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is legit or not. And the IRS should not be involved with conveying legitimacy or illegitimacy on a church.

Great, you're right, the govenrment has criteria for church.  But churches could also easily qualify as nonprofit, no?   What is the problem?  LOL, I forget.  Where did we start with the church stuff?  Um, politicians using churches for votes....  Oh yes, churches don't need government to exist.  And governments don't need to tax churches. 

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #780 on: January 13, 2017, 09:54:16 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.


We can still have roads and bridges and things.  Could roads and schools be paid for with use fees instead of property taxes?  Maybe that would be better. 

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #781 on: January 13, 2017, 09:58:39 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

That's a good point. I've always thought it was because glorifying the 'self-made man' was essentially implying that everyone else just didn't try hard enough. So then being poor becomes a moral failing and then it's easy to say that some people don't deserve government assistance or are freeloaders.

Maybe it's just differing outlooks. Aside from the social policy of Republicans (which is why I can never make myself vote for them), they just constantly seems so fucking down about shit. Everything is an attack on everything, no one is safe, everyone should be so scared all the time. Bah! Muslims! Transwomen! Liberal Professors! Women! Atheists!

Democrats have their faults for fucking sure, but they honestly never seem anything but optimistic about the future, and positive about our ability to make our world better for more of us. Also, their conventions aren't 90% older white men, which super helps. Also, democrats as a party are generally pro-science whereas the Republicans who speak out are usually.... very much not. In insane ways.

The Democrats will freak you out using the same techniques --  Women's health care!  Global Warming!  Rich people!  The 1%!  Black and brown people!  And they will either pressure you into feeling guilty for being privileged and white, or you are a victim for being non-white, or a woman. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #782 on: January 13, 2017, 10:37:52 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.


We can still have roads and bridges and things.  Could roads and schools be paid for with use fees instead of property taxes?  Maybe that would be better.

Yeah, maybe. Although that would probably require some rethinking of our tax code in general, to avoid making it super regressive.

MasterStache

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #783 on: January 13, 2017, 11:01:35 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

That's a good point. I've always thought it was because glorifying the 'self-made man' was essentially implying that everyone else just didn't try hard enough. So then being poor becomes a moral failing and then it's easy to say that some people don't deserve government assistance or are freeloaders.

Maybe it's just differing outlooks. Aside from the social policy of Republicans (which is why I can never make myself vote for them), they just constantly seems so fucking down about shit. Everything is an attack on everything, no one is safe, everyone should be so scared all the time. Bah! Muslims! Transwomen! Liberal Professors! Women! Atheists!

Democrats have their faults for fucking sure, but they honestly never seem anything but optimistic about the future, and positive about our ability to make our world better for more of us. Also, their conventions aren't 90% older white men, which super helps. Also, democrats as a party are generally pro-science whereas the Republicans who speak out are usually.... very much not. In insane ways.

The Democrats will freak you out using the same techniques --  Women's health care!  Global Warming!  Rich people!  The 1%!  Black and brown people!  And they will either pressure you into feeling guilty for being privileged and white, or you are a victim for being non-white, or a woman.

Which "techniques" are you referring to in regards to global warming?

bananarama

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #784 on: January 13, 2017, 11:08:15 AM »
But...so?  Lots of other people, in fact basically all of them, have that exact same set of circumstances.  Everyone can leverage roads and bridges the same way.  Everyone has a free public education (granted, of varying quality).  What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

The point is if you tear it all down, then nobody can do any of the aforementioned things.

That's a good point. I've always thought it was because glorifying the 'self-made man' was essentially implying that everyone else just didn't try hard enough. So then being poor becomes a moral failing and then it's easy to say that some people don't deserve government assistance or are freeloaders.

Maybe it's just differing outlooks. Aside from the social policy of Republicans (which is why I can never make myself vote for them), they just constantly seems so fucking down about shit. Everything is an attack on everything, no one is safe, everyone should be so scared all the time. Bah! Muslims! Transwomen! Liberal Professors! Women! Atheists!

Democrats have their faults for fucking sure, but they honestly never seem anything but optimistic about the future, and positive about our ability to make our world better for more of us. Also, their conventions aren't 90% older white men, which super helps. Also, democrats as a party are generally pro-science whereas the Republicans who speak out are usually.... very much not. In insane ways.

The Democrats will freak you out using the same techniques --  Women's health care!  Global Warming!  Rich people!  The 1%!  Black and brown people!  And they will either pressure you into feeling guilty for being privileged and white, or you are a victim for being non-white, or a woman.

Lolz. Yea, no one's ever had to explain to me why it sucks being a woman, gay, black, or any other minority. I have eyes, and I use them. It's amazing what you can see when you look, or when you ask people their experience. Also, global warming is a thing, seriously, if you have credibly evidence otherwise you should probably be given a Nobel because wow, just about everyone in the field disagrees.

Do I think there aren't some hysterical Democrats? Of course not, there totally are. Honestly though, I'd rather have some dude lecture me about how my language might not be inclusive enough (because the intent here is positive - creating a more polite and welcoming public space) than have some Christian dude lecture me about the holidays (because the intent here is to claim ownership over things and also to make me conform to Christian ideals, which I do not share but that doesn't seem to matter anyway).

It honestly seems like liberal focus is on space for others (to express their gender, love who they will, go where they will, wear what they will) where as conservative focus seems to be on space for themselves (to control how I dress, who I love, where I go, what my approved gender expression is, etc). I would not rely on the Republican party to guarantee me my right to live free from harassment - mostly because they're the ones doing the harassing.

This is obviously a giant generalization, and is intended only to convey the more prominent (or simply the louder) voices on the conservative side. I'd love to hear counter arguments, because while my experience and reading has led me to this conclusion I find it very uncomfortable and disheartening.

(also, maybe it's because my family is both Irish and previously Catholic, but I think some amount of guilt is good for the soul. White people did some fucked up shit, then fought about it, then did some more fucked up shit, then decided to act like it all never happened (then, some decided it was actually all shitty because Obama, for no sensible reason whatsoever). Removing the blemishes of our past, or acting like they no longer matter, is asking to repeat it. It's dishonest and lacking in both dignity and honor and to be frank - fucking weak. There are limits, but a serious ongoing discussion is not unnecessary in a world where people think it's alright to call the President's wife a fucking "APE IN HEELS". I mean, for fucks sake. It's never okay to call anyone that fucking ever - isn't this shit covered in kindergarten?)

golden1

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #785 on: January 13, 2017, 11:23:28 AM »
Quote
What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

What an odd way to view it!  It doesn't tear people down to recognize that no one exists in a vacuum,  and that even people with amazing abilities would likely not recognize that potential without infrastructure, schools, policemen, teachers, etc... lots of things that, if available to everyone, increase the probability that more people succeed and thrive.   

Chris22

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #786 on: January 13, 2017, 11:38:06 AM »
Quote
What's the point of bring all of that up, unless it's to tear people down, and demand more from the group that already pays a disproportionate share of taxes, etc?

What an odd way to view it!  It doesn't tear people down to recognize that no one exists in a vacuum,  and that even people with amazing abilities would likely not recognize that potential without infrastructure, schools, policemen, teachers, etc... lots of things that, if available to everyone, increase the probability that more people succeed and thrive.

You don't think Obama meant to take business owners, etc, down a peg with that statement?  I think that intent was pretty clear.

On the subject of schools, police, teachers, infrastructure etc, I think the problem a lot of us right wingers have is the feeling that we're asked to support these things with essentially an open checkbook, and if we dare ask why we always are asked to pay more more more, the answer is "how can you be against schools/police/roads/etc???"  I believe, and so do many in my party/political philosophy, that the government spends this money like a crackhead, and maybe before they demand I give more they should consider how to better utilize what they already have.  I think anyone on this board would agree that just because something's important doesn't mean you spend on it with a blank check. 

golden1

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #787 on: January 13, 2017, 11:46:19 AM »
Quote
You don't think Obama meant to take business owners, etc, down a peg with that statement?  I think that intent was pretty clear.

I do not, not at all.  See, this is the thing with political opinions.  They are powered by irrational visceral responses.  You don't like Obama, and if I asked you, you would give me a whole litany of reasons why.  I think Obama is the best president in my 43 year lifetime, and if you asked me why, I'd give you countering reasons.  But I think it comes down to you just don't like the guy, and take whatever he says in the worst possible way.  I really like him, and take most of what he says with a view that he means well and values americans of all walks of life.

As far as the open checkbook thing being a liberal only thing, thats a lot of bullshit right there, because most conservatives are more than happy to spend on defense without any accountability whatsoever.  I want fiscal responsibility but that isn't likely to happen until we get the money out of politics on both ends of the spectrum.  Pork barrel spending isn't just a liberal issue. 

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #788 on: January 13, 2017, 11:56:34 AM »
Our school district asked for $20 - $30 million dollars 2 years ago to make building improvements.  Our voters said, no.  This would have been about $100 a year in property tax for every $100k of propery value.  So my home is about $230 a year.  Well,  I'm rich, I'm a saver, I can afford that.

But, not everyone where I live is rich.  We have so many retirees in my neighborhood and they're living lean.  They're getting no interest on their savings.  How could I vote for something that is going to cost my retired neighbors $200+ a year?  What about the families with no kids in the public schools?

I voted no on the referendum.  There was a no vote lobby in our area.  The school district is working on a modified plan and will bring it back for another vote.

I think it's great that it didn't pass the first time.  I think it sends a message of "sharpen your pencils" to the district, we ain't giving you 30 million that easy.  And, there was no end date on the tax increase, it wasn't an extra $100 for 5 years, it was forever.  Um, no.  I already pay $6k in taxes a year. 

Anyway, there's local politics for you and it's good that we actually have some voice in this stuff.  This is where involvement matters the most.  I am going to sign up for a district focus group where they want to ask questions about the referendum and some new things they want to do with individualized learning.  It will be good to be involved.


Chris22

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #789 on: January 13, 2017, 12:06:56 PM »
Quote
You don't think Obama meant to take business owners, etc, down a peg with that statement?  I think that intent was pretty clear.

I do not, not at all.  See, this is the thing with political opinions.  They are powered by irrational visceral responses.  You don't like Obama, and if I asked you, you would give me a whole litany of reasons why.  I think Obama is the best president in my 43 year lifetime, and if you asked me why, I'd give you countering reasons.  But I think it comes down to you just don't like the guy, and take whatever he says in the worst possible way.  I really like him, and take most of what he says with a view that he means well and values americans of all walks of life.

I actually don't really dislike Obama.  I think he's generally a pretty good guy, he's done a very good job of being statesmanlike and "above the fray" and he's done some things like continue to be tough on terror (killing OBL) that I think he did very well.  On other things, like just ramming the ACA through, I think he did extremely poorly, and in direct violation of his own promises on transparency.  I also think he sometimes spouts off on things too quickly without having a full nuanced picture of all of the facts and he steps on the toes of people trying to do their jobs; thinking of some of the high-profile cop vs. AA shootings and the case of the Harvard professor who was locked out of his house.  I think he jumped the gun on some of those things and sounded off before he should have.  He also spent an overt amount of time blaming Bush in his first four years as President; I thought a better leader would have stepped up and said "no matter what happened before, I'm in charge now, here's how I'm working to fix it".

Quote
As far as the open checkbook thing being a liberal only thing, thats a lot of bullshit right there, because most conservatives are more than happy to spend on defense without any accountability whatsoever.  I want fiscal responsibility but that isn't likely to happen until we get the money out of politics on both ends of the spectrum.  Pork barrel spending isn't just a liberal issue.

No, I don't think conservatives are happy to spend on defense with no accountability; there's been plenty of outcry on some of the garbage bought lately; the JSF was wildly over specc'd and over budget, and the Litoral Combat Ship was just pure garbage.  And lots of us objected to the Osprey.  But it's also important to point out that defense is one of the very few functions specifically Constitutionally enumerated to the Federal government, so some spending there makes sense. 

waltworks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #790 on: January 13, 2017, 12:08:15 PM »
That is a great point, KBecks - I think a lot of people are way too focused on national politics, and then they just ignore what happens at the local level - which really impacts most people a lot more.

We killed a school bond here too - and I was in some of the focus groups afterwards. I have to say, it was a bit depressing. Every single thing that the bond would fund had 90%+ approval - but almost every person didn't like something ("My kids don't play soccer, why do we need to fix the soccer field?" sort of stuff) and hence voted no.

Hard to get anything done when every proposal has to be perfect to every voter to get a yes vote. I think the whole thing will get put to the voters again as 3 or 4 separate smaller bonds with exactly the same stuff, and it'll all pass. Sigh.

-W

KBecks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #791 on: January 13, 2017, 12:17:11 PM »
It's a tough balance.  I was not OK writing a check for $30 million and a permanent property tax increase.  I mean, at some point, the project is paid for, right?  Why does the increase not have an end date?

Ours is for building an entire new school, making some energy improvements at the high school and rebuilding the swimming pool.

I think that piecemealing it might be a good way to go.  I would be happier to approve a smaller referendum for the energy saving improvements if they can include more detail on what the costs and benefits are.   We could have an interesting community discussion about the swimming pool.  Our swimming pool isn't as nice as town X's swimming pool.  But how much are we willing to pay to make ours nicer?  Pools are very expensive.  Maybe I am biased because my high school didn't have a swimming pool and life went on just fine!!!   Could we rent some pool time at Town X's facility?   But we don't get to host swimming meets?  Is that important?  Is that worth X million to the community?

The building they want to tear down and replace is not a perfect building but it is not a hell hole.  I would rather spend money on people than buildings.  Part of the issue is they expanded our district area and now the schools are a little over crowded.  And so now the school is not serving the needs as well.  One of the complaints is that the school gets hot in May and June, the last weeks of school depending on the weather.  But -- call me a Grinch but kids in India and Mexico go to school in warm weather and they manage!!!!!  And they're distracted the last few weeks of school when the weather gets nice because they want to go play, not because of the HVAC.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:20:53 PM by KBecks »

waltworks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #792 on: January 13, 2017, 12:32:28 PM »
Generally speaking if you wait for hell-hole status you'll have spent more on maintenance than you would have just building a new building.

I bet your bond had a sunset date. They always do. Those can vary quite a bit depending on how it's structured, though, of course.

I hear you on the "I didn't have this and I was just fine" - but if you take that to it's logical conclusion, we'd all still end our education in 5th grade in a one-room log shack that we walk 10 miles to, except during planting and harvest season...

I guess you could just debate the whole concept of public education - but old folks with no kids have been paying for schools for the last century or so. It's sort of considered part of the larger societal bargain now. That doesn't mean it's inviolable, but *your* public school education was paid for by someone who didn't have kids in school too...

I'm kidding, sort of. But the reality is the country is much richer than it was. If having a swimming pool gets 10 kids a year really interested in swimming and exercise and staying healthy (participation in sports is very strongly correlated with academic success), and lets the community do stuff it couldn't before... maybe it's worth it.

Chris22

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #793 on: January 13, 2017, 12:39:56 PM »
But even if we accept that some buildings and additions and such are necessary, and I'd agree, $20-30M sounds like an incredible amount of money for a few schools and a pool.  I'd love to go through that budget and understand just how you get there, because from out here in the cheap seats that sounds incredibly gold-plated.

Midwest

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #794 on: January 13, 2017, 12:58:21 PM »


I'm kidding, sort of. But the reality is the country is much richer than it was. If having a swimming pool gets 10 kids a year really interested in swimming and exercise and staying healthy (participation in sports is very strongly correlated with academic success), and lets the community do stuff it couldn't before... maybe it's worth it.

If we apply mustachian ideals to the government, the cost will go down.  I'm all for kids having use of a pool, but it can be a shared asset and/or community asset.  It can be getting time at a community pool.  Sometimes there are cheaper solutions that are not considered because those in charge are looking for an ideal solution when an economic solution would be better.

MasterStache

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #795 on: January 13, 2017, 01:04:27 PM »
That is a great point, KBecks - I think a lot of people are way too focused on national politics, and then they just ignore what happens at the local level - which really impacts most people a lot more.

We killed a school bond here too - and I was in some of the focus groups afterwards. I have to say, it was a bit depressing. Every single thing that the bond would fund had 90%+ approval - but almost every person didn't like something ("My kids don't play soccer, why do we need to fix the soccer field?" sort of stuff) and hence voted no.

Hard to get anything done when every proposal has to be perfect to every voter to get a yes vote. I think the whole thing will get put to the voters again as 3 or 4 separate smaller bonds with exactly the same stuff, and it'll all pass. Sigh.

-W

To add to this we live in a very high cost of living area and I can't remember the last time a levy wasn't passed. They pass by overwhelming margins. Our schools are in the top 15-20 in the state. We have excellent facilities, a fantastic library, playgrounds, infrastructure etc. The parks are fantastic and they keep building more sidewalks. My daughter will be in a brand new elementary school next year. Our school district is fantastic. I can't say enough. It's why we moved here. Her current school is 40 years old and doesn't even have air conditioning. They do everything they possibly can to make things last. And I haven't even mentioned that all of this greatly helps property values. So I am more than willing to pay a little bit more every year. It comes back in more than just financial ways.

I can also travel 5 minutes down the road to a school district that can't pass a levy because of some of the reasons I have seen listed here. Their schools are crumbling. Athletics programs have been cut. Bus service has been cut. They have a big drug problem. Even the teachers make less money. I firmly believe you get what you pay for.

I simply don't understand how folks think investing in their community is a bad thing. Especially when the excuse is "I don't have kids in the school systems." Seems so selfish.

infogoon

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #796 on: January 13, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »
I also think [President Obama] sometimes spouts off on things too quickly without having a full nuanced picture of all of the facts and he steps on the toes of people trying to do their jobs.

You're going to love the new guy.

waltworks

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #797 on: January 13, 2017, 01:08:43 PM »
Um, have you ever been involved in the building of any sort of structure? A commercial/school building is NOT cheap to build. Nor is a house, of course. A nice house in a nice area will cost $200/sq to build.

That's probably about what a school costs, according to School Planning and Management: https://webspm.com/Articles/2015/07/01/School-Costs.aspx

From the article:
"In 2014, the median elementary school in the United States cost $211.55 per square foot to build. Median spending was $43,693 per pupil and the median elementary school provided 188 square feet for each student. The median elementary school reported was designed for 624 students and encompasses 84,700 square feet at a total cost of $16,269,543."

She's in a rich area, meaning considerably higher construction costs. $30 million for the new school plus a pool and some sort of improvements to another school seems within the realm of reasonable in terms of cost. That's not to say I know anything about the particulars or whether the improvements/new school were needed - but the cost isn't crazy.

-W

But even if we accept that some buildings and additions and such are necessary, and I'd agree, $20-30M sounds like an incredible amount of money for a few schools and a pool.  I'd love to go through that budget and understand just how you get there, because from out here in the cheap seats that sounds incredibly gold-plated.

Chris22

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #798 on: January 13, 2017, 01:08:54 PM »
I simply don't understand how folks think investing in their community is a bad thing. Especially when the excuse is "I don't have kids in the school systems." Seems so selfish.

Because there's a gigantic difference between "investing" and "spending."  I will happily invest, but I too often see suggestions to spend.  And when cutbacks are suggested as an option to avoid tax increases, do they make sensible cutbacks?  Never.  They make targeted political cutbacks they know people will hate, like cutting the football coach or the music teacher or the art teacher and then scream "how can you people want to cut art???"  Well, I know, let's NOT cut the $50k/yr art teacher and instead cut a few of the $150k/yr administrators? 

Keep in mind, this is written from a Chicagoland perspective, home of one of the most powerful teacher's unions. 

infogoon

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Re: What's really going on out in the country? Why
« Reply #799 on: January 13, 2017, 01:13:12 PM »
Because there's a gigantic difference between "investing" and "spending."  I will happily invest, but I too often see suggestions to spend.  And when cutbacks are suggested as an option to avoid tax increases, do they make sensible cutbacks?  Never.  They make targeted political cutbacks they know people will hate, like cutting the football coach or the music teacher or the art teacher and then scream "how can you people want to cut art???"  Well, I know, let's NOT cut the $50k/yr art teacher and instead cut a few of the $150k/yr administrators? 

Keep in mind, this is written from a Chicagoland perspective, home of one of the most powerful teacher's unions.

I see that all the time in the suburban districts around my city -- there will be the budget that goes up for a vote, and then the contingency budget only saves 3% of the spending and does it by making obvious, painful cuts like the music program and the football team. And then they schedule a concert during the budget vote, so everyone whose polling place is the school has to walk past the students who are part of the music program. It's shameless.