What's really going on out in the country? Why

[Trimatty471]

I grew up in an affluent suburb of Youngstown, Ohio--the most rust belt of all rust belt cities. I then went to Ohio State for seven years (undergrad and law school) and moved back to Youngstown afterwards. Columbus and Youngstown are a couple hours apart, but I cannot even begin to understate the difference between the two communities.

Something new is being built every single time I visit Columbus. New hospitals. Entirely new freeways. High Street (the main strip of OSU's campus) is lightyears different. The university has basically built an entirely new north campus. New hockey arena. The Short North is booming.

Turn around and come back home--Youngstown looks like a city from the Walking Dead. I'm looking out my window at Federal Street right now and nobody is out there. Compare that to Federal Street years ago: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/45/04/ad/4504adda061318ebb0c72fa632d7254b.jpg

Our infrastructure is crumbling. Main roads--Market Street, Rayen Avenue, Wick Avenue--are riddled with potholes. There are very few good-paying jobs. Most of our schools have to have open enrollment in a desperate attempt to increase funding. The local municipal park--one of the best in the country--cannot get EPA funding to help separate sewage from storm water. People work hard to send their kids to college only to likely see them not come back. I could go on.

But here's the thing--I LOVE YOUNGSTOWN. I'm proud to live here. I'm proud to be a resident of this community. The people here are great. The food is great. I love the pride in the local communities. I love being close to my family. Damn near everyone still here feels the same, only to see friends and relatives move away to Cleveland or Columbus because that's where the jobs are.

Let's be clear--Washington D.C. and Columbus (our state capital) has completely forgot about us. They simply don't care. Bill Clinton actually promised us an accounting center during his presidency, and then turned his back on that promise and sent it to Cleveland. Take this favoritism in our local cities and multiple it by a billion when you consider it nationally--NYC, SF, etc. just don't have a clue what it's like to live in an American town that is struggling.

The only time national reporters come here is to interview a former steel worker and write a story about how great life used to be here, but how much our town sucks. They pay fleeting attention to us as if our lives--our roads, our schools, our communities--don't matter.

For years, Youngstown was a democratic stronghold. Obama won Mahoning County by 26 points in 2008. He won it by 27 points in 2012. Obama won neighboring Trumbull County by 22 points in 2008 and 23 points in 2012.

Hillary? She won Mahoning County by 3. She LOST Trumbull County by 34--yes, 34--points.

I'm trying to figure it out, but honestly, this has nothing to do with race, sex, or even Trump. He might as well have been Elmer Fudd--and I dead seriously mean that. This was the biggest FUCK YOU I've ever seen. This was a lost town that has been forgotten, and this was the only thing they could do to get people's attention.

And keep in mind this is just my perspective from my little town. For every Youngstown there's an Ashtabula and a Dayton and a Lorain and a Findley. And those are just Ohio. I bet you if you look in neighboring PA--everyone was talking about the "suburban moms in Philadelphia"--when they really needed to look to Scranton and Newcastle and Erie--other proud towns who have been completely forgotten in favor of Philly and Pittsburgh.

And again, from towns across the US like Youngstown, this was a big, giant, middle finger to say "Hey, remember us?"

But doesn't the fault lay with your local politicians? Usually, the townships has to offer businesses s
Something to make them want to relocate there.

[Metric Mouse]

Plan B probably involves an awful lot of people (my assumption would be everyone outside of the industrialized world) dying, but it's better than the end of civilization.

How are you going to stop those starving billions from inviting themselves into the "industrialised world", when their alternative is sitting and starving?

We're all doomed, I tell you, doomed.

(I'm trying to keep my own environmental footprint low and selfishly hoping that the doom doesn't arrive until my old age.  But it's not looking good for that at the moment.)

Not that I am advocating oe endorsing the plan, but the pacific fleet would be a pretty good deterrent.

[Trimatty471]

I don't understand this. If the rural towns are dying because the young people are moving to the city for better jobs, why don't the rest of the people also move?!

I mentioned this to my wife and she said "some people don't want to move". Is that the reason? WTF kind of attitude is that? You don't have a job and your kids are starving, but you can't be bothered to move? Because why? Because the shithole town with more bail bonds shops than restaurants is so great? I'd like to live on a beach in Hawaii too, but I don't have to job there so I live here! Sometimes you have to move where there are jobs. That's a fact of life, deal with it. But no, let's instead elect some psycho strongman who somehow will bring jobs to me. jeez.

There are cities lacing lower-skill workers, there are thousands of courses online to learn new skills for free. Driving Uber must be better than no job at all (?). Just today I heard there will be a million few nurses than we need. (This goes for Sanders supporters too) no I'd rather sit on my ass and demand that some politician implementable his pipe-dream scheme to fix my life for me..

It's the attitude a huge number of voters have, which is partially why a traditional conservative that preached individual responsibility couldn't win the republican nomination.  It's also partially why Trump won the election.  Sort of a reverse Reagan movement.  Whereas Reagan convinced a lot of formerly democratic voters that conservative/republican philosophy had merit, Trump managed to hijack the entire republican party and move the tent so to speak to cover formerly democratic voters, including a lot who voted for President Obama.

Absolutely!
African Americans migrated North in the 60s for jobs.
Mexicans, legal or illegal also migrated North.
Central/South Americans migrated for jobs.
Canadians migrated South.
Europeans, Africans, Australians also migrated.

But these people chose to stay in the rust belt.

My grandfather was a farmer who lived in the South.   But in the winter, he worked in Pennsylvania.

[former player]

Plan B probably involves an awful lot of people (my assumption would be everyone outside of the industrialized world) dying, but it's better than the end of civilization.

How are you going to stop those starving billions from inviting themselves into the "industrialised world", when their alternative is sitting and starving?

We're all doomed, I tell you, doomed.

(I'm trying to keep my own environmental footprint low and selfishly hoping that the doom doesn't arrive until my old age.  But it's not looking good for that at the moment.)

Not that I am advocating oe endorsing the plan, but the pacific fleet would be a pretty good deterrent.

Unless they are going to shoot at and sink ships carrying thousands of starving refugees the pacific fleet is no deterrent at all.

[paddedhat]

I don't understand this. If the rural towns are dying because the young people are moving to the city for better jobs, why don't the rest of the people also move?!

I mentioned this to my wife and she said "some people don't want to move". Is that the reason? WTF kind of attitude is that? You don't have a job and your kids are starving, but you can't be bothered to move? Because why? Because the shithole town with more bail bonds shops than restaurants is so great? I'd like to live on a beach in Hawaii too, but I don't have to job there so I live here! Sometimes you have to move where there are jobs. That's a fact of life, deal with it. But no, let's instead elect some psycho strongman who somehow will bring jobs to me. jeez.

There are cities lacing lower-skill workers, there are thousands of courses online to learn new skills for free. Driving Uber must be better than no job at all (?). Just today I heard there will be a million few nurses than we need. (This goes for Sanders supporters too) no I'd rather sit on my ass and demand that some politician implementable his pipe-dream scheme to fix my life for me..

It's the attitude a huge number of voters have, which is partially why a traditional conservative that preached individual responsibility couldn't win the republican nomination.  It's also partially why Trump won the election.  Sort of a reverse Reagan movement.  Whereas Reagan convinced a lot of formerly democratic voters that conservative/republican philosophy had merit, Trump managed to hijack the entire republican party and move the tent so to speak to cover formerly democratic voters, including a lot who voted for President Obama.

Absolutely!
African Americans migrated North in the 60s for jobs.
Mexicans, legal or illegal also migrated North.
Central/South Americans migrated for jobs.
Canadians migrated South.
Europeans, Africans, Australians also migrated.

But these people chose to stay in the rust belt.

My grandfather was a farmer who lived in the South.   But in the winter, he worked in Pennsylvania.

It really blows my mind to think of the concept of choosing to live in a sea of failure, when I contrast it to the western expansion era in North America. The west is full of "Ghost" towns, that tell a fascinating story.  Some had reached substantial six figure populations, and had brick and cut stone buildings. Some had a few hundred folks, canvas tent homes and businesses, and (if the boom lasted long enough) hastily clubbed together wooden structures. All ended up draining their populations like a bath tub, once the riches of the extraction industry supporting the town played out, or another rich vein of gold, silver, timber, etc.... was discovered, further down the trail. These towns did not become failed communities full of those who wished that the gold would return to the nearby streams. The economics of the day didn't allow for it. You either moved, or starved.

In the last few months I have spent time in several failed towns that were the heart of the Pennsylvania hard coal industry, dead and dying parts of the rural south, from central Florida to southern VA. and a native reservation in South Dakota. The reservation really shook me pretty hard. I had spent a lot of time there, volunteering for a non-profit, while building and repairing homes for people in pretty desperate need. I hadn't been there in a decade, and the entire situation had not only failed to improve, even with massive amounts of federal cash continually infused into the community, but had gotten substantially worse. Most of the required staples of a large rural community are now gone, restaurants, hardware store, lumberyard, drug store, etc, all have disappeared in the last decade.

It seems to me that the biggest difference between walking away from your home, in 1890, after the silver vein dried up, or the much hyped railroad failed arrive, is that you had  absolutely no choice. Now, you can still keep the lights on, and food on the table, as a community limps along, in many cases for generations, after there is zero economic rationalization for your local community's existence. It's really scares me to know that my latest trip to the "Rez" in some ways is a preview of where a lot of rural america is heading. A downward spiral of economic and social decay, to the point that nothing really functions, the economy is government handouts, a limited base of government provided jobs, and a very small number of small businesses that are barely getting by. Oh, and let us not forget, the now mandatory centerpiece of every hurting community in rural america, the new, (yet often filthy and poorly managed) "Dollar General" store. Without question the population is sure of exactly why they are in this situation, and they not only have their mandatory bogeyman to blame (minorities, trade policies, off-shoring,democrats, immigration, liberals, etc...) but they also are waiting for and expecting some superman to show up and save them. It's heartbreaking to see a middle aged adult, being interviewed in a rotting steel or coal town, who really believes that some slick con-man is actually going to fire up a steel mill, that has been dead for thirty years, and return it to it's glory, while bringing back 10,000 high paying jobs. Or another who really believes that the same con-man can somehow magically revive the coal industry, and that Appalachia will return to it's economic glory. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

 I was slack-jawed and  stunned, in the middle of the night, when the talking head on CNN said, "Trump has taken Pennsylvania, and it's all over for HRC".  It only took a brief time to understand what ReadySetMillioniare did such a great job of explaining. This election was a giant Fuck You to the power structure, from people who are not only downtrodden, but thoroughly mislead as to the cause of their pain, and what the solution might be.

As I drove the streets of the reservation town, a few months back, stunned at how far things had decayed, I had a line from a song blowing through my head.

"And we never failed to fail, it was the easiest thing to do"    Southern Cross. Crosby, Stills and Nash

[wenchsenior]

Good points on the 'stickiness' of those populations in the economic dead zones. I think the further barriers to emigration, which weren't as powerful in Ye Olden Days, are that housing has become somewhat more expensive and might be out of reach for people coming out the depressed areas with no savings or physical capital. And of course, if you have no higher education and no technical skills, then moving to look for jobs is kind of pointless unless you can get training. Lack of access to suitable training/education wasn't a barrier to most labor back in day...unskilled people had a better chance of being picked up for work.  Now, though it looks obvious to expect people to migrate from (say) WV to the nearby booming area of Raleigh-Durham, NC, I doubt there are nearly as many jobs for those migrants as the robust economy of R-D might initially suggest.  But still, it is odd how people cling to these dying towns.  I mean, I hate cities and would much prefer to live day to day away from large numbers of people, but I've lived in medium to large cities since I left my (tiny) hometown because that is where the work is.

[LaineyAZ]

paddedhat, that was so beautifully written.  Thanks for posting.

[Chris22]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain. 

[Kris]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

[mtn]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

You didn't refute anything he said. The Bolded part was what counted.  The underlined part was irrelevant, especially for people who live in the Brexit states--their lives can't get much worse.

As for the Hillary part of it, I don't agree that she held them in open disdain, but she sure didn't do any politicking towards them. And remember, her dad left Scranton in search of a better life in Chicago. Not sure what point there is in mentioning that, but I feel that it is somehow relevant--that she knows what it means to move a family, but sometimes its necessary.

[Chris22]

As for the Hillary part of it, I don't agree that she held them in open disdain, but she sure didn't do any politicking towards them. And remember, her dad left Scranton in search of a better life in Chicago. Not sure what point there is in mentioning that, but I feel that it is somehow relevant--that she knows what it means to move a family, but sometimes its necessary.

Well she called half of them deplorable (assuming they were Trump voters), so...

There's also always an undercurrent of "you sad unsophisticated morons" that trickles out from the left aimed at anyone who isn't an urban liberal. 

[paddedhat]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

Kris is correct here. I'm a white, middle aged rural male. I am surrounded by friends and neighbors who believe, VERY sincerely, that this bullshit artist IS the path to salvation. The fact that he is a well documented pathological liar, thief, and deeply mentally ill narcissist does not come into play. The issues are many, but it does really come down to fact that we are becoming a nation of two very distinct classes. The one that was born into has zero intellectual curiosity, little interest in facts, and will actively seek conformational media that tells them what they want to hear. There is a price to pay for decades of twisted propaganda being presented as reality to rural, working class Americans. It isn't a great leap from blaming everything on the "liberal elites", or mindless drivel like stirring the masses with bullshit about the "war" on Christmas, and the "fact" that our president is a Muslim,  to selling the concept of a savior. When you spend decades getting all of your information from sources that have no interest in anything but propaganda, you are pre-primed and ready to scream "lock her up" at the feet of the new messiah.

You are correct, in the sense that many were sick of the status quo and really did vote for a regime change, but don't underestimate the tens of millions that literally took this POS carnival barker at his literal word, nor fail to anticipate the repercussions of the fact that he will succeed with little, or none, of his  "make America great" horse shit.

[Chris22]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

Kris is correct here. I'm a white, middle aged rural male. I am surrounded by friends and neighbors who believe, VERY sincerely, that this bullshit artist IS the path to salvation. The fact that he is a well documented pathological liar, thief, and deeply mentally ill narcissist does not come into play. The issues are many, but it does really come down to fact that we are becoming a nation of two very distinct classes. The one that was born into has zero intellectual curiosity, little interest in facts, and will actively seek conformational media that tells them what they want to hear. There is a price to pay for decades of twisted propaganda being presented as reality to rural, working class Americans. It isn't a great leap from blaming everything on the "liberal elites", or mindless drivel like stirring the masses with bullshit about the "war" on Christmas, and the "fact" that our president is a Muslim,  to selling the concept of a savior. When you spend decades getting all of your information from sources that have no interest in anything but propaganda, you are pre-primed and ready to scream "lock her up" at the feet of the new messiah.

You are correct, in the sense that many were sick of the status quo and really did vote for a regime change, but don't underestimate the tens of millions that literally took this POS carnival barker at his literal word, nor fail to anticipate the repercussions of the fact that he will succeed with little, or none, of his  "make America great" horse shit.

Frankly, I think if he is able to roll back the corporate tax rate, that alone could have some pretty significant impacts as far as domestic corporate reinvestment.  Will it "fix everything", absolutely not, but it would add jobs and that would be an easy win for him. 

[waltworks]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests and fall for the same stupid thing over and over again.

But hey, I'm rich white and straight. I'm just about done voting for the interests of people that aren't at this point, because apparently that's not what they want. So hey, give me some more capital gains and a tax cut. Awesome. Maybe I'll hire a couple of you in a decade to work as security guards to keep the rest of you out of my neighborhood.

-W

[Chris22]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

and fall for the same stupid thing over and over again.

Say what you will about Trump, he's not "the same stupid thing."

[waltworks]

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

Say what you will about Trump, he's not "the same stupid thing."

No, they think they *are* voting for their interests.

If you think Trump is new, you must be either very young or not much of a student of American history. He's Lindbergh all over again.

-W

[Malaysia41]

Kris is correct here. I'm a white, middle aged rural male. I am surrounded by friends and neighbors who believe, VERY sincerely, that this bullshit artist IS the path to salvation. The fact that he is a well documented pathological liar, thief, and deeply mentally ill narcissist does not come into play. The issues are many, but it does really come down to fact that we are becoming a nation of two very distinct classes. The one that was born into has zero intellectual curiosity, little interest in facts, and will actively seek conformational media that tells them what they want to hear. There is a price to pay for decades of twisted propaganda being presented as reality to rural, working class Americans. It isn't a great leap from blaming everything on the "liberal elites", or mindless drivel like stirring the masses with bullshit about the "war" on Christmas, and the "fact" that our president is a Muslim,  to selling the concept of a savior. When you spend decades getting all of your information from sources that have no interest in anything but propaganda, you are pre-primed and ready to scream "lock her up" at the feet of the new messiah.

You are correct, in the sense that many were sick of the status quo and really did vote for a regime change, but don't underestimate the tens of millions that literally took this POS carnival barker at his literal word, nor fail to anticipate the repercussions of the fact that he will succeed with little, or none, of his  "make America great" horse shit.

I like the cut of your jib, paddedhat.

[infogoon]

If you think Trump is new, you must be either very young or not much of a student of American history. He's Lindbergh all over again.

He's Huey Long with a Twitter account.

[golden1]

It really blows my mind to think of the concept of choosing to live in a sea of failure, when I contrast it to the western expansion era in North America. The west is full of "Ghost" towns, that tell a fascinating story.  Some had reached substantial six figure populations, and had brick and cut stone buildings. Some had a few hundred folks, canvas tent homes and businesses, and (if the boom lasted long enough) hastily clubbed together wooden structures. All ended up draining their populations like a bath tub, once the riches of the extraction industry supporting the town played out, or another rich vein of gold, silver, timber, etc.... was discovered, further down the trail. These towns did not become failed communities full of those who wished that the gold would return to the nearby streams. The economics of the day didn't allow for it. You either moved, or starved.

In the last few months I have spent time in several failed towns that were the heart of the Pennsylvania hard coal industry, dead and dying parts of the rural south, from central Florida to southern VA. and a native reservation in South Dakota. The reservation really shook me pretty hard. I had spent a lot of time there, volunteering for a non-profit, while building and repairing homes for people in pretty desperate need. I hadn't been there in a decade, and the entire situation had not only failed to improve, even with massive amounts of federal cash continually infused into the community, but had gotten substantially worse. Most of the required staples of a large rural community are now gone, restaurants, hardware store, lumberyard, drug store, etc, all have disappeared in the last decade.

It seems to me that the biggest difference between walking away from your home, in 1890, after the silver vein dried up, or the much hyped railroad failed arrive, is that you had  absolutely no choice. Now, you can still keep the lights on, and food on the table, as a community limps along, in many cases for generations, after there is zero economic rationalization for your local community's existence. It's really scares me to know that my latest trip to the "Rez" in some ways is a preview of where a lot of rural america is heading. A downward spiral of economic and social decay, to the point that nothing really functions, the economy is government handouts, a limited base of government provided jobs, and a very small number of small businesses that are barely getting by. Oh, and let us not forget, the now mandatory centerpiece of every hurting community in rural america, the new, (yet often filthy and poorly managed) "Dollar General" store. Without question the population is sure of exactly why they are in this situation, and they not only have their mandatory bogeyman to blame (minorities, trade policies, off-shoring,democrats, immigration, liberals, etc...) but they also are waiting for and expecting some superman to show up and save them. It's heartbreaking to see a middle aged adult, being interviewed in a rotting steel or coal town, who really believes that some slick con-man is actually going to fire up a steel mill, that has been dead for thirty years, and return it to it's glory, while bringing back 10,000 high paying jobs. Or another who really believes that the same con-man can somehow magically revive the coal industry, and that Appalachia will return to it's economic glory. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

 I was slack-jawed and  stunned, in the middle of the night, when the talking head on CNN said, "Trump has taken Pennsylvania, and it's all over for HRC".  It only took a brief time to understand what ReadySetMillioniare did such a great job of explaining. This election was a giant Fuck You to the power structure, from people who are not only downtrodden, but thoroughly mislead as to the cause of their pain, and what the solution might be.

As I drove the streets of the reservation town, a few months back, stunned at how far things had decayed, I had a line from a song blowing through my head.

"And we never failed to fail, it was the easiest thing to do"    Southern Cross. Crosby, Stills and Nash

This was fantastic and thanks for sharing your experience.  I always have felt that a lot of Trump's appeal is that he reflects the primal scream of a group of people who have been the butt of the joke for decades and fell they have nothing left to lose.  Humans, more than almost anything, fear loss of status because for all of our evolutionary history loss of status = suffering and death.   When I heard a lot of pundits talk about how many people in these poor rural communities are pissed that they are being moved to the "back of the line", and interpreting that as racist in some way, I thought "It isn't really about race, it's about class, humiliation, and loss of status."  In the past, you might be poor, but if you were poor and white, you knew that you were at least better than other classes of people.  But now popular culture is celebrating the people that used to be at the back of the status line while laughing at you.  All of that was personified in the election of Obama.  Of course they want to elect the guy that made his rise to power by delegitimizing Obama as an American.  It's the ultimate revenge. 

[Kris]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

You didn't refute anything he said. The Bolded part was what counted.  The underlined part was irrelevant, especially for people who live in the Brexit states--their lives can't get much worse.

As for the Hillary part of it, I don't agree that she held them in open disdain, but she sure didn't do any politicking towards them. And remember, her dad left Scranton in search of a better life in Chicago. Not sure what point there is in mentioning that, but I feel that it is somehow relevant--that she knows what it means to move a family, but sometimes its necessary.

Oh no? Watch them.

[LadyStache in Baja]

following.

[wenchsenior]

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. Trump is the modern version of the Native American "Ghost dance".   By 1890 the plains indians were so thoroughly beaten down that they followed a spiritual leader who convinced them that dancing in the right shirts would cause the great spirit to remove the oppressive whites, restore the Buffalo, and return the people to their glory days of a generation past. Trump is our modern day "Wovoka" the Paiute Indian medicine man who founded the original Ghost Dance.

I really don't think you give people enough credit.  I think the people in these areas know at some level it's not all coming back.  But their choice was between a man who promised to try and do something and a woman who held them basically in open disdain.

Sadly, no. The choice was between a man who promised to try to do something who manifestly had no idea how to go about it, and either lied that he thought it could be done or basically didn't give a shit, and whose policies, such as they are will almost certainly leave us worse off in almost every way four years from now... and a woman who could at least keep the slight progress of the last few years on an even keel.

You didn't refute anything he said. The Bolded part was what counted.  The underlined part was irrelevant, especially for people who live in the Brexit states--their lives can't get much worse.

As for the Hillary part of it, I don't agree that she held them in open disdain, but she sure didn't do any politicking towards them. And remember, her dad left Scranton in search of a better life in Chicago. Not sure what point there is in mentioning that, but I feel that it is somehow relevant--that she knows what it means to move a family, but sometimes its necessary.

Oh no? Watch them.

Just wait until the GOP manages to dismantle or defund Medicare and Medicaid. Their lives will go from really bad to unspeakable in the blink of an eye. The question is, will they turn on the GOP for it?  I doubt it.

[rosaz]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

I agree with you on principle; I dislike when the poor are told they're stupid for voting against their own interests, but Warren Buffett and George Soros are noble for doing so. If we were talking about voting for say, Mitt Romney, you'd have a good point.

But are you telling me that people voted for Trump because they thought that was the morally correct choice, even if it was against their own interests? I can muster some empathy for those who just desperately want their jobs to come back, but if they voted for the racist sexual predator who openly trampled the norms underlying our democracy, because they thought he was somehow the moral choice... that's just terrifying.

[RangerOne]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

I agree with you on principle; I dislike when the poor are told they're stupid for voting against their own interests, but Warren Buffett and George Soros are noble for doing so. If we were talking about voting for say, Mitt Romney, you'd have a good point.

But are you telling me that people voted for Trump because they thought that was the morally correct choice, even if it was against their own interests? I can muster some empathy for those who just desperately want their jobs to come back, but if they voted for the racist sexual predator who openly trampled the norms underlying our democracy, because they thought he was somehow the moral choice... that's just terrifying.

I would agree that I empathize fully with the rust belt people who saw a silver lining in Trumps message of trying to keep jobs in the US. I don' think he can make it happen but I respect that he gave them their only hope and Hillary put little to no effort in here and tried to coast of the back of Obama and democrats of the past.

I have a sever lack of respect for people who simply played identify politics, who can't muster up any reason to vote for Trump except to stick it to the dems and " he will make america great again". Those people should have their voting rights revoked........ I generally comfort myself with the belief that mindless idiots voting cancels out on both sides in politics.

I don't think ultimately Trump won because of mindless idiots or racists. Ultimately the election was extremely close and Hill only lost because she had a terrible public image and her message of fear Trump was a 1,000 fold less successful than the government has been fucking you all over and I can get your jobs back.

[mtn]

It would be deemed unconstitutional, but that last line--"should have their voting privileges revoked"--I've often wondered why there isn't a simple quiz at the booth.

5+8=
The current Secretary of State is 
The first President of the US was

Or similarly, a matching quiz--which candidate stands by which policy--something so simple as matching Donald/Hillary to the correct statement, meaning a 50/50 chance:
Supports Universal Healthcare
Supports Revocation of Nafta

If you get it wrong, you can't vote. That really shouldn't be an unfair barrier to entry.
I imagine that would remove a solid 15% of voters.

[MasterStache]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

I agree with you on principle; I dislike when the poor are told they're stupid for voting against their own interests, but Warren Buffett and George Soros are noble for doing so. If we were talking about voting for say, Mitt Romney, you'd have a good point.

But are you telling me that people voted for Trump because they thought that was the morally correct choice, even if it was against their own interests? I can muster some empathy for those who just desperately want their jobs to come back, but if they voted for the racist sexual predator who openly trampled the norms underlying our democracy, because they thought he was somehow the moral choice... that's just terrifying.

I would agree that I empathize fully with the rust belt people who saw a silver lining in Trumps message of trying to keep jobs in the US. I don' think he can make it happen but I respect that he gave them their only hope and Hillary put little to no effort in here and tried to coast of the back of Obama and democrats of the past.

I have a sever lack of respect for people who simply played identify politics, who can't muster up any reason to vote for Trump except to stick it to the dems and " he will make america great again". Those people should have their voting rights revoked........ I generally comfort myself with the belief that mindless idiots voting cancels out on both sides in politics.

I don't think ultimately Trump won because of mindless idiots or racists. Ultimately the election was extremely close and Hill only lost because she had a terrible public image and her message of fear Trump was a 1,000 fold less successful than the government has been fucking you all over and I can get your jobs back.

I think there is a vast difference between offering hope and offering bullshit. Trump prayed on hopes by offering bullshit.

[DoubleDown]

On a forum like this, I suppose we shouldn't by mystified at all that a charlatan like Donald Trump can be elected. The majority of Americans have zero savings, carry large credit card balances, live paycheck to paycheck and so on. That is, they have little or no clue. They're easily taken in by false advertising every day and the belief that it's "impossible to get ahead," so might as well fuck everything and buy more stuff because "I deserve it." And elect a retard to "shake things up and drain the swamp" just because.

Think about the prototypical Trump voter and their likely economic profile -- I'd say there's a gigantic correlation.

[RangerOne]

To be fair, "sad unsophisticated morons" is a fair characterization of people who consistently vote against their own interests

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

I agree with you on principle; I dislike when the poor are told they're stupid for voting against their own interests, but Warren Buffett and George Soros are noble for doing so. If we were talking about voting for say, Mitt Romney, you'd have a good point.

But are you telling me that people voted for Trump because they thought that was the morally correct choice, even if it was against their own interests? I can muster some empathy for those who just desperately want their jobs to come back, but if they voted for the racist sexual predator who openly trampled the norms underlying our democracy, because they thought he was somehow the moral choice... that's just terrifying.

I would agree that I empathize fully with the rust belt people who saw a silver lining in Trumps message of trying to keep jobs in the US. I don' think he can make it happen but I respect that he gave them their only hope and Hillary put little to no effort in here and tried to coast of the back of Obama and democrats of the past.

I have a sever lack of respect for people who simply played identify politics, who can't muster up any reason to vote for Trump except to stick it to the dems and " he will make america great again". Those people should have their voting rights revoked........ I generally comfort myself with the belief that mindless idiots voting cancels out on both sides in politics.

I don't think ultimately Trump won because of mindless idiots or racists. Ultimately the election was extremely close and Hill only lost because she had a terrible public image and her message of fear Trump was a 1,000 fold less successful than the government has been fucking you all over and I can get your jobs back.

I think there is a vast difference between offering hope and offering bullshit. Trump prayed on hopes by offering bullshit.

I agree that he offered bullshit, but that doesn't change how some desperate people chose to interpret him.

[RangerOne]

On a forum like this, I suppose we shouldn't by mystified at all that a charlatan like Donald Trump can be elected. The majority of Americans have zero savings, carry large credit card balances, live paycheck to paycheck and so on. That is, they have little or no clue. They're easily taken in by false advertising every day and the belief that it's "impossible to get ahead," so might as well fuck everything and buy more stuff because "I deserve it." And elect a retard to "shake things up and drain the swamp" just because.

Think about the prototypical Trump voter and their likely economic profile -- I'd say there's a gigantic correlation.

At this point though there is obviously truth in what you are saying it is not really constructive to point out that the majority of average voters who believed Trump will help them was essentially duped. it only further pushes the good people who voted Trump away to tell them they were too racist or too ignorant to vote well.

I am more interested how misinformation and perception of bias in media made it possible for a person like Trump to gain traction and help make selling feelings as good as selling viable ideas. Or how in a field of potentially intelligent and capable Democrats were held back while Hillary was shoved down our throats throughout the primaries, without ever taking an honest look at her flawed public image as a real risk.

[Gondolin]

Unless they are going to shoot at and sink ships carrying thousands of starving refugees the pacific fleet is no deterrent at all.

...that is exactly what he was implying. More immediately and realistically, how many migrants die crossing the Mediterranean each year despite aid from the Italian, Greek, and French Coast Guards? Now imagine the number if those Coast Guards/Navies were hostile.

[infogoon]

Just wait until the GOP manages to dismantle or defund Medicare and Medicaid. Their lives will go from really bad to unspeakable in the blink of an eye. The question is, will they turn on the GOP for it?  I doubt it.

Isn't that exactly what happened in Kentucky? They elected a governor who ran on an anti-Obamacare platform, and now they're SHOCKED that its affecting Medicaid availability.

[former player]

Unless they are going to shoot at and sink ships carrying thousands of starving refugees the pacific fleet is no deterrent at all.

...that is exactly what he was implying. More immediately and realistically, how many migrants die crossing the Mediterranean each year despite aid from the Italian, Greek, and French Coast Guards? Now imagine the number if those Coast Guards/Navies were hostile.

Shooting at a boat full of unarmed civilians would be an act of war (remember the Lusitania).  The USA would be starting a war, for instance with China.

You are proposing to kill enough people that the rest would stop trying to cross the ocean and just die of starvation where they are.  I suspect that it's not a sustainable proposition.

[RangerOne]

Just wait until the GOP manages to dismantle or defund Medicare and Medicaid. Their lives will go from really bad to unspeakable in the blink of an eye. The question is, will they turn on the GOP for it?  I doubt it.

Isn't that exactly what happened in Kentucky? They elected a governor who ran on an anti-Obamacare platform, and now they're SHOCKED that its affecting Medicaid availability.

If you are asking will every person turn on the GOP over some of those issues, of course not. But this election was lost in states by a few thousand votes. When your policies really hurt a lot of people it only takes a small percentage of them being disillusioned to lose a future vote state winning vote.

Repubs and Democrats are afraid of backlash over tampering with programs like these for good reason. They are more likely to tweak than shit can the ACA for much the same reason. I am sure that is the GOPs preference to not hurt voters in such a direct fashion.

[MDM]

Isn't that exactly what happened in Kentucky? They elected a governor who ran on an anti-Obamacare platform, and now they're SHOCKED that its affecting Medicaid availability.

If http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/19/502580120/in-depressed-rural-kentucky-worries-mount-over-medicaid-cutbacks is an accurate portrayal, the governor's proposals aren't at all unreasonable. 

Political extremists live in great fear that their opponents policies will be successful.  They delight in spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about those policies. 

The Republicans did it about Obamacare, but somehow the country has survived (and major portions of Obamacare itself are likely to survive Trump). 

Now Democrats are taking the same FUD approach to Trump's impending administration.

[Jrr85]

Voting for what you thought was right instead of what will benefit you personally used to be called "character."  Now it's a punchline.  Nice.

Say what you will about Trump, he's not "the same stupid thing."

No, they think they *are* voting for their interests.

If you think Trump is new, you must be either very young or not much of a student of American history. He's Lindbergh all over again.

-W

Well I'm sure you're smarter than the tens of millions of people that voted for Trump.  Definitely no chance that voters on both side were more or less distributed along the bell curve intelligence wise and that different values and information drove different decisions. 

[Gondolin]

Shooting at a boat full of unarmed civilians would be an act of war (remember the Lusitania).

Sure, but in this doomsday scenario you're proposing where there is a mass starvation event and billions of people roaming the earth I don't think anyone will care about that. I don't really see how it gets to that point with multiple major wars erupting beforehand but, that's neither here nor there.

The USA would be starting a war, for instance with China.

China? Are you thinking that 500 million Chinese are going to cross the Pacific instead of moving North/East/South by land?

You are proposing to kill enough people that the rest would stop trying to cross the ocean and just die of starvation where they are.  I suspect that it's not a sustainable proposition.

It's not a matter of dissuading people from going. It's a matter of destroying the ships capable of making the transit. There just aren't that many and most are slow and unarmed. That's why I moved my post to the Med. Sea - where small, easily assembled craft can make the trip.

In any case, both myself and OP were agreeing with you that a mass starvation event would be a bad time. The reality is that not everywhere would have famines all at once and the sequencing of catastrophes in various regions would determine much about the shape of any mass movement.

[Metric Mouse]

Shooting at a boat full of unarmed civilians would be an act of war (remember the Lusitania).

Sure, but in this doomsday scenario you're proposing where there is a mass starvation event and billions of people roaming the earth I don't think anyone will care about that. I don't really see how it gets to that point with multiple major wars erupting beforehand but, that's neither here nor there.

The USA would be starting a war, for instance with China.

China? Are you thinking that 500 million Chinese are going to cross the Pacific instead of moving North/East/South by land?

You are proposing to kill enough people that the rest would stop trying to cross the ocean and just die of starvation where they are.  I suspect that it's not a sustainable proposition.

It's not a matter of dissuading people from going. It's a matter of destroying the ships capable of making the transit. There just aren't that many and most are slow and unarmed. That's why I moved my post to the Med. Sea - where small, easily assembled craft can make the trip.

In any case, both myself and OP were agreeing with you that a mass starvation event would be a bad time. The reality is that not everywhere would have famines all at once and the sequencing of catastrophes in various regions would determine much about the shape of any mass movement.

Got it as I was typing. Well said, on all points.

[paddedhat]

Frankly, I think if he is able to roll back the corporate tax rate, that alone could have some pretty significant impacts as far as domestic corporate reinvestment.  Will it "fix everything", absolutely not, but it would add jobs and that would be an easy win for him.

It's interesting that so many assume that there are corporations pay anything even close the the federal corporate tax rate. I have repeatedly read claims that, in reality, there are so many exclusions, exemptions,deductions, credits, etc... that the average effective (real)tax rate is very competitive with most other industrialized nations, and lower than many. In some cases, some of those corporations that scream the loudest about how damaged they are by paying the huge corporate rates, are in reality paying nearly nothing.  There are several giant companies, like GE, and Verizon who have gone years without paying a dime, and overall, the  share of the federal tax burden carried by corporate America is a fraction of what it was decades ago. It's less than a third of what it was in the 1950s.

So if you are talking about a major tax cut with total elimination of all deductions, and exclusions, that's great, but that's not the reality of the lobbying industry, and the corporate whores who populate our legislative branch. Finally, how does corporate tax cutting differ from the "trickle down" fantasy. In other words, it seems like another scheme to enrich the "job makers" while pretending that they will use the windfall to magically create new jobs.

[MasterStache]

Shooting at a boat full of unarmed civilians would be an act of war (remember the Lusitania).

Sure, but in this doomsday scenario you're proposing where there is a mass starvation event and billions of people roaming the earth I don't think anyone will care about that. I don't really see how it gets to that point with multiple major wars erupting beforehand but, that's neither here nor there.

The USA would be starting a war, for instance with China.

China? Are you thinking that 500 million Chinese are going to cross the Pacific instead of moving North/East/South by land?

You are proposing to kill enough people that the rest would stop trying to cross the ocean and just die of starvation where they are.  I suspect that it's not a sustainable proposition.

It's not a matter of dissuading people from going. It's a matter of destroying the ships capable of making the transit. There just aren't that many and most are slow and unarmed. That's why I moved my post to the Med. Sea - where small, easily assembled craft can make the trip.

In any case, both myself and OP were agreeing with you that a mass starvation event would be a bad time. The reality is that not everywhere would have famines all at once and the sequencing of catastrophes in various regions would determine much about the shape of any mass movement.

We already have a mass starvation event. 3.1 million kids alone die of starvation each year. Combine the deaths of poorly nourished kids suffering from diseases and that figure jumps quite a bit. The good news is that number has decreased, but it's still horrifying.

[paddedhat]

Just wait until the GOP manages to dismantle or defund Medicare and Medicaid. Their lives will go from really bad to unspeakable in the blink of an eye. The question is, will they turn on the GOP for it?  I doubt it.

Isn't that exactly what happened in Kentucky? They elected a governor who ran on an anti-Obamacare platform, and now they're SHOCKED that its affecting Medicaid availability.

.    This is endlessly fascinating to me.  There are areas of extreme poverty  in  Appalachia  that are tagged "mailbox  economies" by their local government leaders. They earn this name  because the majority of income is generated by government handouts, SS and disability checks, etc. By the time Obama was reelected most of the locals were  rabidly right leaning and rabid in their hatred of the federal government  and, of course, the black imposter of a Muslim president. If you stopped the entitlements for a month there would be folks freezing to death and others eating from garbage cans, but tbe majority are thoroughly tired of being screwed by those crooked Dems. In DC. it's enough to make your head hurt
.

[DoubleDown]

On a forum like this, I suppose we shouldn't by mystified at all that a charlatan like Donald Trump can be elected. The majority of Americans have zero savings, carry large credit card balances, live paycheck to paycheck and so on. That is, they have little or no clue. They're easily taken in by false advertising every day and the belief that it's "impossible to get ahead," so might as well fuck everything and buy more stuff because "I deserve it." And elect a retard to "shake things up and drain the swamp" just because.

Think about the prototypical Trump voter and their likely economic profile -- I'd say there's a gigantic correlation.

At this point though there is obviously truth in what you are saying it is not really constructive to point out that the majority of average voters who believed Trump will help them was essentially duped. it only further pushes the good people who voted Trump away to tell them they were too racist or too ignorant to vote well.

I am more interested how misinformation and perception of bias in media made it possible for a person like Trump to gain traction and help make selling feelings as good as selling viable ideas. Or how in a field of potentially intelligent and capable Democrats were held back while Hillary was shoved down our throats throughout the primaries, without ever taking an honest look at her flawed public image as a real risk.

Well, I agree with you. And I've also valued your contributions throughout these threads, so know that I'm coming from a point of 99% agreement and 100% appreciation. But I've also become cynical enough in this matter to think there really is little hope for turning the tide against the kind of disinformation and flawed thinking we've seen in the voting populace and those that chose not to vote at all. I'm an optimist in almost all regards, but I do not think there's much hope for this.

Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, I just have a feeling those who think this way aren't likely to be swayed no matter what. That was kind of the point with my comparison to the consumer/debt mentality. Or smoking. Or pollution/climate change. I mean, the obvious problem and peril can be staring someone right in the face and they'll ignore it and continue to pursue a destructive path.

I've tried arguing with people who go in for the conspiracy theories and like thinking. There seems to be no convincing them. Any facts demonstrating that their theory is BS are dismissed because they come from the Illuminati, the government (i.e., the swamp), "lame-stream media" and so on. But hey I'm 50, you're probably younger and with more vigor so I say go for it! :-)

I agree with you 100% about the Democrats forcing Hillary Clinton as their candidate with all her baggage and low approval ratings. I mean, I thought she was highly qualified and that most of the crap thrown against her is unfounded, but the fact is she was not liked by a sizable majority of people and nothing was going to change that.

[nobody123]

... But I've also become cynical enough in this matter to think there really is little hope for turning the tide against the kind of disinformation and flawed thinking we've seen in the voting populace and those that chose not to vote at all. I'm an optimist in almost all regards, but I do not think there's much hope for this.

Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, I just have a feeling those who think this way aren't likely to be swayed no matter what. That was kind of the point with my comparison to the consumer/debt mentality. Or smoking. Or pollution/climate change. I mean, the obvious problem and peril can be staring someone right in the face and they'll ignore it and continue to pursue a destructive path...

I often think that reinstating the draft or some sort of compulsory military service is the only way to get folks to actually think critically about politics again.  Put people's kids in harms way and they will care a whole lot more about what politicians are actually doing as opposed to what the propaganda machine says they are doing.

[DoubleDown]

... But I've also become cynical enough in this matter to think there really is little hope for turning the tide against the kind of disinformation and flawed thinking we've seen in the voting populace and those that chose not to vote at all. I'm an optimist in almost all regards, but I do not think there's much hope for this.

Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, I just have a feeling those who think this way aren't likely to be swayed no matter what. That was kind of the point with my comparison to the consumer/debt mentality. Or smoking. Or pollution/climate change. I mean, the obvious problem and peril can be staring someone right in the face and they'll ignore it and continue to pursue a destructive path...

I often think that reinstating the draft or some sort of compulsory military service is the only way to get folks to actually think critically about politics again.  Put people's kids in harms way and they will care a whole lot more about what politicians are actually doing as opposed to what the propaganda machine says they are doing.

Maybe that would do it!

In thinking further about it, I think the only way to win elections against someone like Trump is to out-Trump him. You need someone with charisma that delivers awesome zingers in debates and promises a bunch of shit they can't possibly deliver on but sounds great. Tell the people what they want to hear. You don't have to be a narcissist or cruel or thin-skinned like Trump, and you can actually know what you're talking about. But you can't be a policy wonk and the like, you have to have flare and put him down where he belongs.

[LadyStache in Baja]

Ugh, I would much rather figure out how to fix our media system that depends on sensational headlines for clicks.  I wish the new cool thing to do would be to shout "ad hominem attack" at people instead of "racist" or "libtard". 

Seriously asking here, how can we get policy to be sexy enough for facebook?

[Northwestie]

... But I've also become cynical enough in this matter to think there really is little hope for turning the tide against the kind of disinformation and flawed thinking we've seen in the voting populace and those that chose not to vote at all. I'm an optimist in almost all regards, but I do not think there's much hope for this.

Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, I just have a feeling those who think this way aren't likely to be swayed no matter what. That was kind of the point with my comparison to the consumer/debt mentality. Or smoking. Or pollution/climate change. I mean, the obvious problem and peril can be staring someone right in the face and they'll ignore it and continue to pursue a destructive path...

I often think that reinstating the draft or some sort of compulsory military service is the only way to get folks to actually think critically about politics again.  Put people's kids in harms way and they will care a whole lot more about what politicians are actually doing as opposed to what the propaganda machine says they are doing.

Maybe that would do it!

In thinking further about it, I think the only way to win elections against someone like Trump is to out-Trump him. You need someone with charisma that delivers awesome zingers in debates and promises a bunch of shit they can't possibly deliver on but sounds great. Tell the people what they want to hear. You don't have to be a narcissist or cruel or thin-skinned like Trump, and you can actually know what you're talking about. But you can't be a policy wonk and the like, you have to have flare and put him down where he belongs.

Unfortunately this seems the easier path that attempting to teach critical thinking methods to the populace.  I'm afraid we are here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk

[Roland of Gilead]

Frankly, I think if he is able to roll back the corporate tax rate, that alone could have some pretty significant impacts as far as domestic corporate reinvestment.  Will it "fix everything", absolutely not, but it would add jobs and that would be an easy win for him.

It's interesting that so many assume that there are corporations pay anything even close the the federal corporate tax rate. I have repeatedly read claims that, in reality, there are so many exclusions, exemptions,deductions, credits, etc... that the average effective (real)tax rate is very competitive with most other industrialized nations, and lower than many. In some cases, some of those corporations that scream the loudest about how damaged they are by paying the huge corporate rates, are in reality paying nearly nothing.  There are several giant companies, like GE, and Verizon who have gone years without paying a dime, and overall, the  share of the federal tax burden carried by corporate America is a fraction of what it was decades ago. It's less than a third of what it was in the 1950s.

So if you are talking about a major tax cut with total elimination of all deductions, and exclusions, that's great, but that's not the reality of the lobbying industry, and the corporate whores who populate our legislative branch. Finally, how does corporate tax cutting differ from the "trickle down" fantasy. In other words, it seems like another scheme to enrich the "job makers" while pretending that they will use the windfall to magically create new jobs.

Can you back up any of that with real numbers?  I know there are (trillions?) being held overseas because they don't want to pay the current US corporate tax rate but you are saying they could bring that money over now and pay less than most other world corporations?

[TheOldestYoungMan]

The issues are many, but it does really come down to fact that we are becoming a nation of two very distinct classes. The one that was born into has zero intellectual curiosity, little interest in facts, and will actively seek conformational media that tells them what they want to hear. There is a price to pay for decades of twisted propaganda being presented as reality to rural, working class Americans. It isn't a great leap from blaming everything on the "liberal elites", or mindless drivel like stirring the masses with bullshit about the "war" on Christmas, and the "fact" that our president is a Muslim,  to selling the concept of a savior. When you spend decades getting all of your information from sources that have no interest in anything but propaganda, you are pre-primed and ready to scream "lock her up" at the feet of the new messiah.

JFC. I don't even really know where to start.

This.

This right here!

Do you understand that there is a whole group of people out there that do not agree with you and none of this is the reason?  The overwhelming contempt you show for everyone on the opposite side from you is staggering.  Have a little humility.  Thoughtful, educated, intelligent people, with world experience, well read, knowledgeable on the issues, disagree with you.  They disagree with you on moral grounds.  They disagree with you on practical grounds.  You ignore their arguments and decide to treat them like uneducated, misguided children.  The arrogance.  Particularly given the incredibly thoughtful post you put up right before.  Someone can have all the same information as you and reach different conclusions.  Fail to understand that and wander into the realm of the bigot.

I don't give a fuck about BHO's religion, I don't care about the war on christmas, and neither does anyone else.  Stop getting all of YOUR information from media sources more concerned about propaganda.

How about personal responsibility?  How about make better choices have better outcomes?  How about the rules can absolutely be used to pick the winners and advocating a rule change after the game has started is about picking different winners and acting like its some moral imperative is the height of hypocrisy?  How about repeatedly referencing folks making over $250k/yr being a near decade-long assault on small business owners filing business tax returns as personal tax returns disguised as an assault on the wealthy elite?  It's two corporate parties screwing everyone over including you.  And you have the gall to accuse us of voting against our self interest?  How about you can't force charity?  How about not using the force of government like it's some catch all, that by doing a wrong in forcibly confiscating my surplus you are somehow able to then do a right?  It's fruit from a poisonous tree and you shouldn't be casual with this shit.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Public education is great.  The federal government sucks at it.  Jobs are great, the federal government sucks at it.  How about, I can look around my town and see a lack of business, decide to start my own business, run afoul of some bullshit government regulations that are designed to make it as difficult as possible to do business, so only large corporations with teams of lawyers can figure it out?  Blaming government for problems caused by government is absolutely a rational thing to do.  Blaming the wealthy elite for playing by the rules set up by government and then turning to government to fix it is about the stupidest fucking premise of the entire Democratic mindset.

My God.

Liberal elites from the city chiming in about how I should just do an internet startup, or how higher taxes will somehow help, because what I want is a handout of course, you can fuck right off.  I used to build Ford Trucks you arrogant little shit, get off my back and make it easier for Elon Musk to sell Teslas so he'll put a gigafactory over here.  Take down the barriers to having a business, don't force bakers to make cakes with dicks crossed on them if they don't want to.  Leave the competitive avenue open so another baker can seize it.  Don't bail out a bank so yet another local credit union folds because they lose too many customers because of the convenience of banking across state lines with BOA or WF.  Don't willfully ignore the failings of 8 years of democratic leadership, after 8 years of failed republican leadership, and then complain when, so focused on winning the unwinnable, you didn't do your damn jobs for a generation.

Blaming propaganda.  Unbelievable.  How about you're wrong?  How about that?  How about maybe I want to succeed without taking from others?  A little taxation is necessary, but not too much.  I don't care if they can afford it, it's fucking wrong.  On an absolute scale, it's wrong.  Nothing stopping them from being charitable if they want to, don't fucking force me to.  Roads.  Schools.  And...MRI machines are expensive so fuck it, some healthcare.  But that's it, we're good, fuck off.

[paddedhat]

Can you back up any of that with real numbers?  I know there are (trillions?) being held overseas because they don't want to pay the current US corporate tax rate but you are saying they could bring that money over now and pay less than most other world corporations?

Forbes, and several "tax fairness" organizations have a lot of info. available, online.  As for repatriating funds, that's a huge issue that needs to be addressed in a fair manner. One of the ways that large corporations end up paying a small fraction of the 35% federal rate is to park the money overseas. Obviously, it's not coming back at a 40%+ haircut after state taxes are added. The other issue is the IRS requirement that taxes ALL corporate income, regardless of where in the world it is generated. That said, given the number of giant corporations that are currently paying everything from single digit rates to nothing at all, I doubt that lowering the rates is going to do anything but make the deficit skyrocket, much like a lot of Trump's other fantasies, that masquerade as policy.

[Kris]

The issues are many, but it does really come down to fact that we are becoming a nation of two very distinct classes. The one that was born into has zero intellectual curiosity, little interest in facts, and will actively seek conformational media that tells them what they want to hear. There is a price to pay for decades of twisted propaganda being presented as reality to rural, working class Americans. It isn't a great leap from blaming everything on the "liberal elites", or mindless drivel like stirring the masses with bullshit about the "war" on Christmas, and the "fact" that our president is a Muslim,  to selling the concept of a savior. When you spend decades getting all of your information from sources that have no interest in anything but propaganda, you are pre-primed and ready to scream "lock her up" at the feet of the new messiah.

JFC. I don't even really know where to start.

This.

This right here!

Do you understand that there is a whole group of people out there that do not agree with you and none of this is the reason?  The overwhelming contempt you show for everyone on the opposite side from you is staggering.  Have a little humility.  Thoughtful, educated, intelligent people, with world experience, well read, knowledgeable on the issues, disagree with you.  They disagree with you on moral grounds.  They disagree with you on practical grounds.  You ignore their arguments and decide to treat them like uneducated, misguided children.  The arrogance.  Particularly given the incredibly thoughtful post you put up right before.  Someone can have all the same information as you and reach different conclusions.  Fail to understand that and wander into the realm of the bigot.

I don't give a fuck about BHO's religion, I don't care about the war on christmas, and neither does anyone else.  Stop getting all of YOUR information from media sources more concerned about propaganda.

How about personal responsibility?  How about make better choices have better outcomes?  How about the rules can absolutely be used to pick the winners and advocating a rule change after the game has started is about picking different winners and acting like its some moral imperative is the height of hypocrisy?  How about repeatedly referencing folks making over $250k/yr being a near decade-long assault on small business owners filing business tax returns as personal tax returns disguised as an assault on the wealthy elite?  It's two corporate parties screwing everyone over including you.  And you have the gall to accuse us of voting against our self interest?  How about you can't force charity?  How about not using the force of government like it's some catch all, that by doing a wrong in forcibly confiscating my surplus you are somehow able to then do a right?  It's fruit from a poisonous tree and you shouldn't be casual with this shit.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Public education is great.  The federal government sucks at it.  Jobs are great, the federal government sucks at it.  How about, I can look around my town and see a lack of business, decide to start my own business, run afoul of some bullshit government regulations that are designed to make it as difficult as possible to do business, so only large corporations with teams of lawyers can figure it out?  Blaming government for problems caused by government is absolutely a rational thing to do.  Blaming the wealthy elite for playing by the rules set up by government and then turning to government to fix it is about the stupidest fucking premise of the entire Democratic mindset.

My God.

Liberal elites from the city chiming in about how I should just do an internet startup, or how higher taxes will somehow help, because what I want is a handout of course, you can fuck right off.  I used to build Ford Trucks you arrogant little shit, get off my back and make it easier for Elon Musk to sell Teslas so he'll put a gigafactory over here.  Take down the barriers to having a business, don't force bakers to make cakes with dicks crossed on them if they don't want to.  Leave the competitive avenue open so another baker can seize it.  Don't bail out a bank so yet another local credit union folds because they lose too many customers because of the convenience of banking across state lines with BOA or WF.  Don't willfully ignore the failings of 8 years of democratic leadership, after 8 years of failed republican leadership, and then complain when, so focused on winning the unwinnable, you didn't do your damn jobs for a generation.

Blaming propaganda.  Unbelievable.  How about you're wrong?  How about that?  How about maybe I want to succeed without taking from others?  A little taxation is necessary, but not too much.  I don't care if they can afford it, it's fucking wrong.  On an absolute scale, it's wrong.  Nothing stopping them from being charitable if they want to, don't fucking force me to.  Roads.  Schools.  And...MRI machines are expensive so fuck it, some healthcare.  But that's it, we're good, fuck off.

Are you freaking serious? Every single Trump supporter I know cares deeply about these things. And is thoroughly convinced that there is a war on Christmas. And is sure Obama is a Muslim in league with ISIS. And thinks that Hillary is literally a Satanist. That is not me being a liberal elitist. That is me trying to engage with conservatives and seeing what they post on their walls. And having them tell me that I need to wake up because I'm the blind one.

So, how do you explain this?  Or are you going to dismiss these people as a tiny population, as though they don't exist? Because they do. And of the people I know, they are the ones who are doing worst economically. The shit they think Trump is going to do is absolutely ridiculous and unworkable. They think he's gonna bring back coal, even though there's no need for it. How's he gonna do that? Subsidies? Because that is the only way that shit is coming back. Why do they believe this shit? Propaganda. Misinformation.

Yeah. What about personal responsibility? What about these people being responsible for educating themselves so they aren't susceptible to this bullshit? How come these people haven't picked themselves up by their own bootstraps, left their dying towns the roads to which the states can't afford because their tax revenues are too low to pay for all that damn infrastructure out in the middle of nowhere, and moved somewhere with some decent economic prospects? That's what people can do so they don't have to succeed without taking from others.

[MDM]

Are you freaking serious? Every single Trump supporter I know cares deeply about these things. ... That is me trying to engage with conservatives and seeing what they post on their walls.
...are you going to dismiss these people as a tiny population, as though they don't exist? Because they do.

A tiny population, by definition, exists.  Can't say how statistically valid your sample of Trump supporters is, compared with the 62 million who voted for him, but I think in this case the "silent majority" (yes electoral not popular vote) may have been a real thing.

In other words, the edges of the normal distribution curve are often the most vocal partisans.  Those may be the ones posting on their walls.  The great majority in the middle of the curve go about their lives without broadcasting their opinions, and I suspect the vast majority of Trump's votes came not from KKK members but from ordinary decent people who, perhaps while holding their nose, and for a wide variety of reasons, decided Trump was the better choice.