Author Topic: What's Happening in Europe?  (Read 3766 times)

bloodaxe

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What's Happening in Europe?
« on: January 15, 2021, 10:09:52 AM »
PM of Germany (Merkel) resigning
PM of Estonia resigning
PM and entire cabinet of Netherlands resigning
Political crisis in Italy (PM might be removed)

All in the past 3 days

Kris

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2021, 10:14:27 AM »
I mean, Merkel has said since 2018 that she wouldn't be seeking another term and would be stepping down in 2021, so that's not something that just happened. As for the others, no clue.

PDXTabs

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2021, 11:45:29 AM »
The Netherlands is having a tax enforcement scandal and they resigned out of a sense of responsibility:

“Mistakes have been made on all levels that have led to great injustice for thousands of families,” Mr. Rutte said in a news conference. “Innocent people have been criminalized, and their lives destroyed. This cabinet has taken full responsibility.”

Imagine if it had happened in the USA.

ixtap

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2021, 11:50:52 AM »
I wonder if any of them thought "Well, now is a good time to follow through, it isn't like anyone is going to notice with what is going on across the pond!"

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 11:02:40 PM »
I'm from the Netherlands, it's been brewing for 6 months over a scandal where our version of the IRS had a anti fraud policy which relied on ethnicity checks and other unknown metrics. People requested subsidies for childcare but they were revoked and labeled as fraud when even a small error was detected forcing those families to pay back all subsidies at once without room for a settlement, forcing the worst cases into massive debt where the tax office was often the biggest collector. All levels of government were ignoring the signals and after years of litigation a parlemental inquiry led to the downfall of our government. Most persons I spoke with said it was symbolic because elections were slated for March anyway.

Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2021, 01:45:30 AM »
I'm from the Netherlands, it's been brewing for 6 months over a scandal where our version of the IRS had a anti fraud policy which relied on ethnicity checks and other unknown metrics. People requested subsidies for childcare but they were revoked and labeled as fraud when even a small error was detected forcing those families to pay back all subsidies at once without room for a settlement, forcing the worst cases into massive debt where the tax office was often the biggest collector. All levels of government were ignoring the signals and after years of litigation a parlemental inquiry led to the downfall of our government. Most persons I spoke with said it was symbolic because elections were slated for March anyway.
I've been curious about this. Is the tax authority so powerful that they can take people's money directly without going to court? Something doesn't sound right and I haven't been able to find a good explanation in the (non-Dutch) press.

cool7hand

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2021, 04:57:18 AM »
I'm from the Netherlands, it's been brewing for 6 months over a scandal where our version of the IRS had a anti fraud policy which relied on ethnicity checks and other unknown metrics. People requested subsidies for childcare but they were revoked and labeled as fraud when even a small error was detected forcing those families to pay back all subsidies at once without room for a settlement, forcing the worst cases into massive debt where the tax office was often the biggest collector. All levels of government were ignoring the signals and after years of litigation a parlemental inquiry led to the downfall of our government. Most persons I spoke with said it was symbolic because elections were slated for March anyway.
Thanks for sharing!

habanero

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2021, 05:08:24 AM »
I've been curious about this. Is the tax authority so powerful that they can take people's money directly without going to court? Something doesn't sound right and I haven't been able to find a good explanation in the (non-Dutch) press.

I don't live in Holland, but where I live the worst debt you can have is debt to the goverment. I.e for taxes not paid, VAT not paid if you are a business, owing some car-related tax or having recieved money you weren't supposed to get because you say lied on an application or whatever. Pretty much all other debt like consumer debt and mortgage debt you can negotiate, have some of the debt cancelled, get a lower interest rate or whatever as the creditors know its better to get something than nothing and can accept the fact that you will never be able to pay back the full amount with interest. With debt you owe to the goverment you can basically just forget this. They are ahead of everyone in the line of creditors and won't reduce the claim.

Also (again here and not in Holland) if something has been going on for years it becomes standard practice and how the rules are so even if it goes to court (which in many cases will be advised against because it costs money and chance of win is low) cases tend to fly through as they are assumend based on established law. And probably most important: Those hurt by this are generally in the lower income brackets and might not have the time, stamina or money to challenge the decision in the first place.

We had something similar related to social security payments when unemployed and wheter you could recieve that while outside the country. It had been going on for a decade, prob even more, and noone bothered to really look into it. When they did, the error - albeit somewhat disputable - was discovered.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2021, 09:56:05 AM »
I'm from the Netherlands, it's been brewing for 6 months over a scandal where our version of the IRS had a anti fraud policy which relied on ethnicity checks and other unknown metrics. People requested subsidies for childcare but they were revoked and labeled as fraud when even a small error was detected forcing those families to pay back all subsidies at once without room for a settlement, forcing the worst cases into massive debt where the tax office was often the biggest collector. All levels of government were ignoring the signals and after years of litigation a parlemental inquiry led to the downfall of our government. Most persons I spoke with said it was symbolic because elections were slated for March anyway.
I've been curious about this. Is the tax authority so powerful that they can take people's money directly without going to court? Something doesn't sound right and I haven't been able to find a good explanation in the (non-Dutch) press.
Appearently they can: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/standaard_functies/prive/contact/rechten_en_plichten_bij_de_belastingdienst/beslag-door-belastingdienst/bereken_uw_beslagvrije_voet

This lawyers office explains that the tax office does not require a judge to take a piece of your wages and your employer is obliged to do what the tax office requests.
https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/databank/formeel_belastingrecht/beslag_belastingdienst_op_loon_uitkering/#:~:text=Het%20beslag%20wordt%20gelegd%20om,mogen%20dit%20dus%20zelf%20beslissen.

The tax office can contact your employer (or your city in case of wellfare or the department unemployment benefits if you recently lost your job). They can then take a slice of your income (basically everything over a pre-specified income) which led to people not being able to pay other bills acrueing even more debt in a vicious cycle.

Even our equivalent of the senate has shown itself to be aghast of not taking action when the judges were appearently judging technically fair on the law but not seeing the harshness of the law: https://www.trouw.nl/binnenland/raad-van-state-onderzoekt-eigen-uitspraken-na-toeslagenaffaire-het-had-anders-gekund~b5dc1655/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

All in all the following things played a role (if I understand correctly):
1. The tax office was clamping down on "fraud" because of previous abuse by EU residents in other countries that were requesting subsidies/benefits to which they had no right (the law was changed because of it)
2. The tax office introduced a system wih independent teams where they were supposed to achieve a minimal amount of fraud detection in hard currency. Basically like a sales department needing a minimum target of revenue. Not making enough? Look harder!
3. People with minor faults were starting to get flagged as fraud (such as reporting the wrong location for receiving care, but also all clients for caregivers that were mainly dealing with non-local named clients)
4. People were going to the courts and were mostly overturning the resulting fraud flags but the tax office appealed while keeping the persons as fraudsters which in effect caused people to lose jobs, lose their housing and acrue debt
5. An office that is supposed to aid people from interaction with the government (especially to prevent them from being overrun by bureacracy) was basically ignored even though there were several increasingly alarming letters sent to the responsible departments and leading politicians
6. During the investigation a lot of information was not available or came available far too late with important details blacked out because they were "the personal opinion" of an officer of the department (don't know the exact wording)

Even people writing directly to politicians to raise alarms received replies that said politician couldn't respond to individual cases in stead of taking their signals seriously.

All in all the investigation shows that everyone was pointing at someone else, no one was taking or accepting responsibility and internal memo's describing cause and effect with advised measures to rectify the situation were basically ignored and even hidden.


Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2021, 03:23:07 PM »
This lawyers office explains that the tax office does not require a judge to take a piece of your wages and your employer is obliged to do what the tax office requests.
https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/databank/formeel_belastingrecht/beslag_belastingdienst_op_loon_uitkering/#:~:text=Het%20beslag%20wordt%20gelegd%20om,mogen%20dit%20dus%20zelf%20beslissen.
That right here seems to be the critical link in the causal chain. Letting one agency wield both executive and judicial-ish powers? More streamlined, but you better hope they never get it wrong.

rocketpj

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2021, 10:55:34 PM »
The Netherlands is having a tax enforcement scandal and they resigned out of a sense of responsibility:

“Mistakes have been made on all levels that have led to great injustice for thousands of families,” Mr. Rutte said in a news conference. “Innocent people have been criminalized, and their lives destroyed. This cabinet has taken full responsibility.”

Imagine if it had happened in the USA.

Reasonably sure it has been happening in the USA for years.

RetiredAt63

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2021, 04:43:52 PM »
The Netherlands is having a tax enforcement scandal and they resigned out of a sense of responsibility:

“Mistakes have been made on all levels that have led to great injustice for thousands of families,” Mr. Rutte said in a news conference. “Innocent people have been criminalized, and their lives destroyed. This cabinet has taken full responsibility.”

Imagine if it had happened in the USA.

Reasonably sure it has been happening in the USA for years.

That the government takes full responsibility?

PDXTabs

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 09:40:18 AM »
The Netherlands is having a tax enforcement scandal and they resigned out of a sense of responsibility:

“Mistakes have been made on all levels that have led to great injustice for thousands of families,” Mr. Rutte said in a news conference. “Innocent people have been criminalized, and their lives destroyed. This cabinet has taken full responsibility.”

Imagine if it had happened in the USA.

Reasonably sure it has been happening in the USA for years.

You mean the tax enforcement or the resignations? Because I can't remember the last time that the entire US cabinet resigned.

BussoV6

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 07:53:14 AM »
Talking about the Netherlands, what is up with all the rioting. All the Dutch people I've ever met have been super sensible, but this latest potesting looks like a real shitshow.

Imma

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 09:36:51 AM »
This lawyers office explains that the tax office does not require a judge to take a piece of your wages and your employer is obliged to do what the tax office requests.
https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/databank/formeel_belastingrecht/beslag_belastingdienst_op_loon_uitkering/#:~:text=Het%20beslag%20wordt%20gelegd%20om,mogen%20dit%20dus%20zelf%20beslissen.
That right here seems to be the critical link in the causal chain. Letting one agency wield both executive and judicial-ish powers? More streamlined, but you better hope they never get it wrong.

That's not completely what happened here (source: degree in Dutch tax law).

What basically happened is that the rules were extremely strict, to prevent fraud. In the past, benefits fraud was considered a big issue so they made extremely strict rules. For example, to receive the childcare subsidies, you (obviously) need to prove that you have paid the childcare fees. That's sensible. But the rules were designed to be extremely strict and the average person wasn't aware of those super strict rules at all. These subsidies are granted per year. So if you make one little mistake, you have to pay back all the received subsidies for the entire year. That's easily into the 5 digits. And the tax authorities can ask you for admin from up to 5 years ago.

For example: you have to keep every invoice and every proof of payment. If one invoice is missing, the tax authorities could say "you didn't prove you actually paid for childcare" and you had to pay back the entire year's subsidies. Even if the daycare provided a statement that you did actually pay, because the daycare could be in on the fraud (in the past this did actually happen, some daycare associations would offer to do the parents'  admin and make fraudelent claims). Even if you couldn't prove the payment of say, €100, you would have to pay the whole €10000 received in subsidies back.

And there are extremely strict rules about what qualifies as a proof of payment: that's only a bank statement, or if you paid cash, a bank statement showing you withdrew that exact amount of cash on the date of payment and a written proof of payment from the daycare that you paid cash. So, if you own a cash-based business and you pay the daycare cash every month, you are basically screwed if the tax authorities decide to audit you. Or if you budget using the cash envelope system and withdraw €1500 the day you get paid and then pay the daycare €600 a week later. Or another formal rule: if you are a single parent, or a divorced parent, or a couple, you can apply for childcare subsidies, and so can a married person who lives alone while their spouse lives elsewhere in the EU (for example, if your spouse is incarcerated in Germany). But if your spouse is incarcerated in the USA, you don't qualify for childcare subsidies. You could, if you filed for divorce. But normal people don't know that. They find out years later when the tax authorities come in for an audit.

What happened is that the tax authorities audited people (and another layer in this scandal is that racist criteria were used to determine whether someone was audited or not) and requested documents from people to decide whether they qualified. In good faith, people sent what they had, but they didn't have the exact documents. The tax authorities weren't exactly clear in what they needed from people either. So they sent a ruling (beschikking) which is open to appeal, but if you're an average person you don't stand a chance. You either don't understand what that letter means and don't appeal, or you just show up in court with your story and tell the judge you're an honest person and you did nothing wrong. The lawyers on the authorities side give their legal argument and the judge has no other option but to rule in their favour, because technically you did break this tiny little rule that no one knew about. Not knowing the law is no defence. And the rule was written in such a way that it gave the judges very little wiggleroom - because the politicians who designed the rules figured the judges let of people "too easily". When the ruling is final, the tax authorities don't need to use the services of a bailiff to garnish your wages or seize your property. But they can't just do that for no reason at all. There's always an appeal procedure. It's just extremely hard to win. Any childcare subsidies debt over €3000 was automatically considered fraud, so unlike a regular tax debt, you don't have a right to a 24-month payment plan and other debt relief. Plus, the moment childcare subsidies stopped, usually one parent had to quit their job to care for their child, so the family lost half of their income.

What we should do, but what we didn't do because we don't consider that "fair" is just have daycare paid for by the government, just like primary schools. Our government keeps repeating that they want more women to work, and wants them to work more hours. What you need to do to achieve that is make childcare more accessible. Let parents pay an income-based daycare if you like. But the current system where parents pay €8/hour/kid to the daycare and then apply for income-based childcare subsidies based on the amount of hours that the parents work, that almost everyone qualifies for and pays the majority of the costs of childcare, that is just extremely complicated. Especially because they chose to let this be handled by the tax authorities who are extremely good at finding fraud and auditing but whose organisation is not designed to hand out money. Just let everyone send their kids to daycare if they want to and let parents pay a token fee.

It's by the way not extremely special that our government resigned. It's a bit of a tradition to do that if there's some sort of scandal. Most governments actually end up resigning instead of completing the full term. Our PM has lead 3 administrations so far and 2 have resigned. He will probably win the next elections too and start a 4th term in office. Our previous PM led 4 administrations and they all resigned. It's not a big thing at all and especially not now with the elections already scheduled for March.

I wish I could tell you what was going on with the riots though. The whole downtown of my city is destroyed. I haven't seen anything like this in my lifetime. We are strongly anti-authoritarian and strongly anti-hierarchy, which is why our government decided to just give out "behavioural advice" and not an official lockdown and curfew. They tried for a year to nudge us into compliance. But it didn't work anymore. Drastic measures had to be taken. Everyone knew it was going to be a shitshow which is why they avoided taking drastic measures for so long. But this violence was a lot worse than anyone had expected. It's a combination between a well-organized Covid-conspiracy movement that has joined forces with a few far right parties and yellow vests activists, and a whole lot of bored teenagers who have no idea they're being used by movements with bad intentions. They're just bored of sitting with their parents and angry that they can't have any fun. It looks like the worst is behind is now but I expect the small-scale unrest to last until the curfew is lifted. Those mass demonstrations might actually cause an increased infection rate and a longer lockdown. And then the conspiracy folks could say "see, the evil government planned to extend the lockdown all along and now they blame it on us freedom fighters!".

For Americans the violence probably still looked pretty tame, no one died, no one was seriously hurt, but in my city the police had to use teargas. That was the first time in 20 years that the police used teargas in this province. In our country, we talk first, then we use violence. They tried to persuade people to go home for a few hours, only when the crowds started to get violent, the riot police showed up. And they don't attack rightaway, they warn people first. There's terrible footage online of a girl being hit with a water cannon, she claims now she did "nothing wrong" but first the mayor, then the police, then the riot police had literally ordered her for several hours to leave that location and she refused. I'm sad that someone got hurt but they had the right to use violence at that point. She was dressed in a hoodie so they probably had no clue it was a girl - and it shouldn't matter anyway. If you are provoking a person operating a water cannon on purpose you know what's going to happen. She was ordered to leave a million times, she didn't, she could have easily carried a firearm or something to shoot at an officer. The situation was definitely that grim.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 05:05:56 PM by Imma »

Imma

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2021, 12:12:28 PM »
This lawyers office explains that the tax office does not require a judge to take a piece of your wages and your employer is obliged to do what the tax office requests.
https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/databank/formeel_belastingrecht/beslag_belastingdienst_op_loon_uitkering/#:~:text=Het%20beslag%20wordt%20gelegd%20om,mogen%20dit%20dus%20zelf%20beslissen.
That right here seems to be the critical link in the causal chain. Letting one agency wield both executive and judicial-ish powers? More streamlined, but you better hope they never get it wrong.

For Americans the violence probably still looked pretty tame, no one died, no one was seriously hurt, but in my city the police had to use teargas. That was the first time in 20 years that the police used teargas in this province. In our country, we talk first, then we use violence. They tried to persuade people to go home for a few hours, only when the crowds started to get violent, the riot police showed up. And they don't attack rightaway, they warn people first. There's terrible footage online of a girl being hit with a water cannon, she claims now she did "nothing wrong" but first the mayor, then the police, then the riot police had literally ordered her for several hours to leave that location and she refused. I'm sad that someone got hurt but they had the right to use violence at that point. She was dressed in a hoodie so they probably had no clue it was a girl - and it shouldn't matter anyway. If you are provoking a person operating a water cannon on purpose you know what's going to happen. She was ordered to leave a million times, she didn't, she could have easily carried a firearm or something to shoot at an officer. The situation was definitely that grim.

This is how most of the police violence in America happened last year too. Protestors were staying past the curfew time and were told to leave. Then teargas/arrests happened if people didn't leave.

I don't condone the actions of either government.

In this particular case, I do support the decision of my major, fully. These people weren't exactly staging a sit-in and staying out past curfew - this actually happened in the afternoon, before curfew time. Curfew starts at 9pm and the riots happened between 2 and 6 pm. These were people who came there to pick a fight.

A mass gathering downtown was planned that day by the far right, even though social distancing rules ban gatherings of more than 2 people. The police watched the situation for a while. Smaller scale protests have happened over the past year and even though technically they break social distancing rules, our major has not stopped them because protesting is an important civil right. But it was clear that this gathering was attracting a huge crowd. At some point the crowd got so big that an unsafe situation was occuring and police started to ask them to leave or they'd be fined, and they were starting to fine the first people for breaking social distancing rules. Then all of a sudden the protestors started attacking. It escalated really, really quickly and the protestors started the attack. A lot of them had brought weapons from home (golf balls, sticks, knives, Cobra's and other dangerous illegal fireworks) others improvised by breaking up the pavement. There are gaps in the pavement everywhere now. The fact that so many of them had weapons on them speaks volumes about the true intentions of people.

The police first warned them to go home, then the riot police came, then the police on horseback, then the water cannon and eventually, when the water cannon was damaged, tear gas was used. By this time the violence had been going on for at least 45 minutes, maybe more. The mass destruction happened when the water cannon broke down, and the riot police could not control the crowds anymore. The crowds got very excited about their "win" over the water cannon. Bikes were stacked on top of each other and set on fire, a government car was overturned and set on fire, our monumental railway station was severely damaged and a shop was looted and completely destroyed.

I totally understand that with the water cannon out of use and the crowds becoming so extremely violent, that our major saw no other option but to ask his officers to go and get the teargas. When that was finally used, they were able to break up the large crowd into smaller groups. Some of those smaller groups continued to run to the city and break stuff, some went home, but no major damage occured after that point. The police worked until late at night chasing those smaller groups and arresting them.

I live about a mile away from where this all went on and we could see the smoke and hear the explosives from here. We have seen the scale of the destruction with our own eyes. It was insane. I really, really hate the idea of tear gas being used. I'm a pacifist and I have strong opinions about the use of force by law enforcement. I think it was the first time ever that teargas was used in my city. Teargas would never, ever be used on innocent protestors in this country. But the violence was so out of control that I don't believe our major had any other option. If he hadn't ordered to use teargas, they wouldn't have been able to get the crowds under control and there would be millions of euros of additional damage.

Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2021, 03:33:08 PM »
Thanks for the tax explanation! That makes a lot more sense.

And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

Imma

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2021, 05:25:46 PM »
Sorry the explanation was about 3 pages long. But I suppose that's the whole problem. I've tried to explain it to people dealing with these issues and they don't even understand it. It's very easy to be technically guilty of "fraud" while you acted in good faith and paid all your bills and all your taxes. It's the law but it's not justice.

It's important to realize this is a system based on mistrust, it was designed like that. It's not the only system built like that and I'm sure this happens in other countries as well. I'm not going to deny that benefits fraud exists, but I honestly believe it's not as common as people think it is. The right wing newspapers need stories about benefits scroungers to get clicks. The real issue in our society is tax avoidance, tax fraud and money laundering by the rich and powerful.

PDXTabs

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2021, 05:31:03 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

OtherJen

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2021, 06:10:15 AM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Happened to a young acquaintance last summer at a small, unarmed protest. They were arrested and suffered hearing damage for several weeks because of the flash-bangs used by the police.

I mention “unarmed” because the heavily fire-armed rioters who broke past security to invade our state Capitol building last spring and disrupt/threaten a Senate session faced no repercussions. There’s a real double-standard. Those guys were allowed to have guns, axes, heavy flagpoles, a noose, etc.; scream at and directly threaten police officers; and snarl up road traffic in front of a major downtown hospital during a pandemic, with no personal consequences. When I protested at the same spot several years ago, we weren’t even allowed to mount our cardboard signs on yardsticks because those could be used as weapons.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2021, 01:03:42 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Well, some of the guys picked up by the police in Amsterdam last month that were protesting were saying the same thing. Doesn't appear to be true though, rioters in the back would let those in front move away causing them to get arrested or maybe hit with a police club. But that's the risk you take when you go to a protest that was explicitly forbidden and have received several warnings in the last hour to disperse but didn't.

@Imma, in 1996 and 1993 there were footbal championship related riots which were quite bad too. The fans trashed their own home city after celebrating winning the cup, including looting some stores.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/massale-rellen-bij-kampioensfeest~b6316bcd/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Happened in Amsterdam too, though less in Eindhoven.

In this case there appeared to be some people on telegram soliciting riots which were spread by the less bright ones on instagram and facebook. The less bright ones are being tamped down on now and are being picked up by the police regularly. A few have already gotten jail centences too.

PDXTabs

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2021, 01:15:34 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Well, some of the guys picked up by the police in Amsterdam last month that were protesting were saying the same thing. Doesn't appear to be true though, rioters in the back would let those in front move away causing them to get arrested or maybe hit with a police club. But that's the risk you take when you go to a protest that was explicitly forbidden and have received several warnings in the last hour to disperse but didn't.

I vehemently disagree. If I'm asking to get arrested and I'm not resisting arrest and I'm non violent there is no logical, moral, or ethical reason to beat me or shoot me even if I happen to be standing near some people that are violent.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2021, 01:52:15 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Well, some of the guys picked up by the police in Amsterdam last month that were protesting were saying the same thing. Doesn't appear to be true though, rioters in the back would let those in front move away causing them to get arrested or maybe hit with a police club. But that's the risk you take when you go to a protest that was explicitly forbidden and have received several warnings in the last hour to disperse but didn't.

I vehemently disagree. If I'm asking to get arrested and I'm not resisting arrest and I'm non violent there is no logical, moral, or ethical reason to beat me or shoot me even if I happen to be standing near some people that are violent.
They weren't aiming to give them a beating, they were using minimal violence to disperse the crowd as quickly as possible to prevent further escalation. Unfortunately, the front row may not intend violence but if the back row starts throwing bricks and molotov cocktails the point is moot regardless.

Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2021, 02:37:20 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Well, some of the guys picked up by the police in Amsterdam last month that were protesting were saying the same thing. Doesn't appear to be true though, rioters in the back would let those in front move away causing them to get arrested or maybe hit with a police club. But that's the risk you take when you go to a protest that was explicitly forbidden and have received several warnings in the last hour to disperse but didn't.

I vehemently disagree. If I'm asking to get arrested and I'm not resisting arrest and I'm non violent there is no logical, moral, or ethical reason to beat me or shoot me even if I happen to be standing near some people that are violent.
Ha yes, the "I was rubbing shoulders with bad actors in a crowd late at night that's been repeatedly told to disperse, but look, I raised my hands and announced my peacefulness 5 seconds before the police charged" defense. Yawn.


PDXTabs

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2021, 07:09:39 PM »
Ha yes, the "I was rubbing shoulders with bad actors in a crowd late at night that's been repeatedly told to disperse, but look, I raised my hands and announced my peacefulness 5 seconds before the police charged" defense. Yawn.

Filling the jails with peaceful protesters is the fundamental basis of civil disobedience in the USA. But the thing is, the cops don't have to arrest you. You can be begging to be arrested and they can just refuse. So, they can refuse to arrest you, then kettle you, then shoot you in the face with a beanbag round, then arrest you (or not, sometime they just leave you lying in the street and let the street medics take you to the hospital). That chain of events is completely legal in the USA, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it, support it, or vote for it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 09:19:50 PM by PDXTabs »

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2021, 12:10:59 PM »
Ha yes, the "I was rubbing shoulders with bad actors in a crowd late at night that's been repeatedly told to disperse, but look, I raised my hands and announced my peacefulness 5 seconds before the police charged" defense. Yawn.

Filling the jails with peaceful protesters is the fundamental basis of civil disobedience in the USA. But the thing is, the cops don't have to arrest you. You can be begging to be arrested and they can just refuse. So, they can refuse to arrest you, then kettle you, then shoot you in the face with a beanbag round, then arrest you (or not, sometime they just leave you lying in the street and let the street medics take you to the hospital). That chain of events is completely legal in the USA, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it, support it, or vote for it.

OK, I'm going to give you a cookie and promise you that laws in the Netherlands are a lot stricter. Our police can only use a gun to:
- Apprehend a very dangerous criminal (armed robbery, murder, or known to be armed and dangerous), they are trained to shoot the legs of the suspect
- Self defence, they are allowed to shoot to kill

Self defence is classified as being in mortal perill, shooting someone in the back because he's attempting to flee isn't self defence for example (referring to the Jacob Blake news iirc).

If I recall correctly, the shooting officer is also suspended pending investigation as a matter of course. On the one side to allow him to come to terms with his actions through counselling or support and on the other side to open up legal support which is especially needed when the next of kin file a complaint.

https://www.politie.nl/themas/politiegeweld.html#:~:text=Een%20agent%20mag%20schieten%20om,te%20schieten%2C%20het%20zogenaamde%20aanhoudingsvuur.
[img]https://www.politie.nl/binaries/w800h450/content/gallery/politie/onderwerpen/gebruik-geweldsmiddelen-politie.jpg[/]

Imma

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2021, 12:33:18 PM »
Ha yes, the "I was rubbing shoulders with bad actors in a crowd late at night that's been repeatedly told to disperse, but look, I raised my hands and announced my peacefulness 5 seconds before the police charged" defense. Yawn.

Filling the jails with peaceful protesters is the fundamental basis of civil disobedience in the USA. But the thing is, the cops don't have to arrest you. You can be begging to be arrested and they can just refuse. So, they can refuse to arrest you, then kettle you, then shoot you in the face with a beanbag round, then arrest you (or not, sometime they just leave you lying in the street and let the street medics take you to the hospital). That chain of events is completely legal in the USA, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it, support it, or vote for it.

I'm sure that happens in some places, and it's awful, but it's certainly not what happened last weekend in my own city, which is what we were discussing. Beanbags aren't even legal in here. We have batons, water cannon, tear gas and then actual bullets. Tear gas and bullets are hardly ever used. Even the use of a water cannon is rare. Our police tries to not harm people. They are fellow citizens that also support non-violent demonstrations. On the square the riot went down last week, there are demos all the time.  I can tell you from my own experience that police are usually sympathetic and friendly to protestors, regardless of the cause. With all the violence that went on last weekend, the fact that only one person out of hundreds ended up needing hospital treatment at all shows that police officers did everything they could to control the situation without harming people. But for law enforcement it is sometimes sadly unavoidable that people get wounded.

I just read an interview with the one lady who was wounded last week, and she claims she was not participating in the riot, but was filming it up close as an independent, non-mainstream media journalist without press credentials. She was apparantly just leaving the area when she was hurt. If that is the truth and she was not involved with violent acts, then I'm sorry she got hurt. But at the moment it happened, an emergency had been declared and it was illegal to enter the area she was in, so she was trespassing and she was aware of the risk she was taking. She was literally walking in between riot police with batons, horses, dogs and a water cannon and rioters throwing stones and fireworks and from the exact place she was standing when she was filmed getting hurt, she could have left that area in 5 different directions. The area was not closed off.

The whole reason press credentials were invented is to prevent people from getting hurt in a chaotic situation. You cannot expect the police to know which person in a group threw explosives or knives at them. If you are standing with a violent group there's a chance you become a target. That's actually also a known tactic from some rioters. They attack, then flee and hide among a group of non-violent protestors.

In my city, the same organizations that were behind last Sunday's demonstration have announced new demonstrations for this Sunday. The demonstration is banned by our mayor, who has the right to do that in case of emergency. I'm not happy about mayors banning demonstrations, but as this is an organization with a horrible track record and they are expecting 1000 people, I think our mayor has made the right decision. There are still literally dozens of buildings downtown that are still boarded up from last time. I just hope this is not going to end up in another riot.

@Alfred J Quack A friend of mine from there also told me about riots in Den Bosch in 2000 where tear gas was used.  I had kind of forgotten about football hooliganism. That's much better now than 20 or even 10 years ago. But the fact that we can count the amount of times teargas was used in the past couple of decades on one or two hands speaks volumes about how much effort police put into avoiding severe violence imho.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2021, 10:09:40 AM »
@Alfred J Quack A friend of mine from there also told me about riots in Den Bosch in 2000 where tear gas was used.  I had kind of forgotten about football hooliganism. That's much better now than 20 or even 10 years ago. But the fact that we can count the amount of times teargas was used in the past couple of decades on one or two hands speaks volumes about how much effort police put into avoiding severe violence imho.
Certainly, the number of times where teargas has been used is at the very least rare and can be counted on one, maybe 2 hands the last 30 years.

That said, teargas isn't part of individual police equipment though pepperspray has been for a while now iirc. If I understand correctly teargas is only used by riot police (ME) to discourage extremely hostile situations and disperse them ASAP.
I've got a great amount of respect for our men/women in blue because they tend to be a much smaller force against large groups. If they ask, pretty much regardless of the situation, I follow directions.

iris lily

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2021, 08:44:31 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Happened to a young acquaintance last summer at a small, unarmed protest. They were arrested and suffered hearing damage for several weeks because of the flash-bangs used by the police.

I mention “unarmed” because the heavily fire-armed rioters who broke past security to invade our state Capitol building last spring and disrupt/threaten a Senate session faced no repercussions. There’s a real double-standard. Those guys were allowed to have guns, axes, heavy flagpoles, a noose, etc.; scream at and directly threaten police officers; and snarl up road traffic in front of a major downtown hospital during a pandemic, with no personal consequences. When I protested at the same spot several years ago, we weren’t even allowed to mount our cardboard signs on yardsticks because those could be used as weapons.

Face no repercussions? I’m not sure why you say that.

I never know if statements like this are hyperbole, , or if  posters like you truly believe that every protestor experienced no consequence of law.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 08:36:50 AM by iris lily »

habanero

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2021, 03:26:58 AM »
Our police generally don't shoot anyone - among other factors for the simple reason that the polic is normally not armed. They can be for certain tasks of course, but default is no guns. From 2002 to 2019 the police shot and killed a total of five people. From 2002 to 2014 there were a total of 33 incidents in which the police actually fired a weapon in a situation.Among these quite a few were not even aiming for a person, but say shooting the tires of a car or similar. And one of them was to kill a dog.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 03:31:11 AM by habanero »

scottish

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2021, 05:12:28 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Happened to a young acquaintance last summer at a small, unarmed protest. They were arrested and suffered hearing damage for several weeks because of the flash-bangs used by the police.

I mention “unarmed” because the heavily fire-armed rioters who broke past security to invade our state Capitol building last spring and disrupt/threaten a Senate session faced no repercussions. There’s a real double-standard. Those guys were allowed to have guns, axes, heavy flagpoles, a noose, etc.; scream at and directly threaten police officers; and snarl up road traffic in front of a major downtown hospital during a pandemic, with no personal consequences. When I protested at the same spot several years ago, we weren’t even allowed to mount our cardboard signs on yardsticks because those could be used as weapons.

Face no repercussions? I’m not sure why you say that.

I never know if statements like this are hyperbole, , or if  posters like you truly believe that every protestor experienced no consequence of law.

Many of the capitol protestors are facing federal charges, aren't they?     It hasn't really been in the news up here.

Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2021, 05:35:03 PM »
Yes, they very much are in deep legal shit. In some cases the charges are mere "placeholders" that are being used to hold them early while evidence is being gathered to see exactly how much of the book can be thrown at them. The capitol police was wholly underprepared and overwhelmed on January 6, but the wheels of justice are most definitely on the move now. On top of that, many of them are getting blowback from their employers/neighbors/customers.

When the yellow vests were breaking shit all over France every Saturday in 2018/2019, it led to roughly 3,000 people being convicted. About a tenth of those saw the inside of a prison cell, usually for a couple of weeks at most. The rest got a mix of suspended prison sentences and modest fines.

OtherJen

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2021, 06:01:45 PM »
And yes, goading the police into reacting is a time honored tactic that's only gotten worse with the advent of smartphones. Oh look, we were just protesting peacefully and then out of nowhere the fascist police violated our rights. We have this 45 second video to prove it.

There are well documented reports of kettling in the USA. That's where the police trap the protesters before ordering them to disperse as per riot laws, but they can't. Then they beat the crap out of them, shoot them with less than lethal munitions, etc, for no good reason.

Happened to a young acquaintance last summer at a small, unarmed protest. They were arrested and suffered hearing damage for several weeks because of the flash-bangs used by the police.

I mention “unarmed” because the heavily fire-armed rioters who broke past security to invade our state Capitol building last spring and disrupt/threaten a Senate session faced no repercussions. There’s a real double-standard. Those guys were allowed to have guns, axes, heavy flagpoles, a noose, etc.; scream at and directly threaten police officers; and snarl up road traffic in front of a major downtown hospital during a pandemic, with no personal consequences. When I protested at the same spot several years ago, we weren’t even allowed to mount our cardboard signs on yardsticks because those could be used as weapons.

Face no repercussions? I’m not sure why you say that.

I never know if statements like this are hyperbole, , or if  posters like you truly believe that every protestor experienced no consequence of law.

I was talking about this protest in May 2020 at my state's capitol. Coronavirus: Armed protesters enter Michigan statehouse (BBC).

And this one in April 2020, which blocked the entrances to the Sparrow Hospital complex (verified by a family friend who is a nurse at the hospital): Capitol protesters snarl streets, including Sparrow Hospital area (WLNS Lansing, MI CBS affiliate).

A dear friend's cousin is a state senator and was on the Senate floor when the armed rioters broke past security. There were no legal repercussions. Believe what you want. I prefer facts over beliefs.

scottish

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2021, 08:51:17 AM »
 I found the episode in the Michigan state capitol bizarre.    About 7 years ago we had 1 guy who got into the parliament buildings with a rifle and he was shot dead by the sergeant at arms.

The notion that a bunch of people with carbines would be allowed to enter a legislature building to try and intimidate the government is crazy.    And you say that not only were they not engaged by law enforcement, they had no consequences at all?

OtherJen

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2021, 09:43:59 AM »
I found the episode in the Michigan state capitol bizarre.    About 7 years ago we had 1 guy who got into the parliament buildings with a rifle and he was shot dead by the sergeant at arms.

The notion that a bunch of people with carbines would be allowed to enter a legislature building to try and intimidate the government is crazy.    And you say that not only were they not engaged by law enforcement, they had no consequences at all?

At the time, it was legal to open carry guns (but not umbrellas or signs on yardsticks – see photo in this linked article from the Detroit News) onto state capitol property. So no, no one who got past guards and onto the Senate floor was arrested. In fact, the event is considered a "dress rehearsal" for the Jan. 6 2021 insurrection (NY Times).

Quote
Police made only one arrest at the protest, Lt Brian Oleksyk, a Michigan state police spokesman, said. A 35-year-old male protester was arrested for assaulting another protester outside of the capitol building. While there was “a little bit of pushing” by protesters inside the building, Oleksyk said, “after verbally protesting for an hour, things calmed down.”

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol

ericrugiero

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2021, 08:36:37 AM »
I found the episode in the Michigan state capitol bizarre.    About 7 years ago we had 1 guy who got into the parliament buildings with a rifle and he was shot dead by the sergeant at arms.

The notion that a bunch of people with carbines would be allowed to enter a legislature building to try and intimidate the government is crazy.    And you say that not only were they not engaged by law enforcement, they had no consequences at all?

At the time, it was legal to open carry guns (but not umbrellas or signs on yardsticks – see photo in this linked article from the Detroit News) onto state capitol property. So no, no one who got past guards and onto the Senate floor was arrested. In fact, the event is considered a "dress rehearsal" for the Jan. 6 2021 insurrection (NY Times).

Quote
Police made only one arrest at the protest, Lt Brian Oleksyk, a Michigan state police spokesman, said. A 35-year-old male protester was arrested for assaulting another protester outside of the capitol building. While there was “a little bit of pushing” by protesters inside the building, Oleksyk said, “after verbally protesting for an hour, things calmed down.”

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol

So, if I understand correctly only one person was arrested because the rest didn't break the law?  That sounds reasonable.  (although I agree that open carrying into the state capitol during a protest was very poor taste)

As an aside, I am a gun owner and have my concealed carry license.  People with their concealed carry license are statically some of the most law abiding citizens you can possibly find.  More so that the police officers who enforce those same laws (or pretty much any other group you could name).  But, allowing citizens to carry guns into the capitol building does seem silly.  Michigan should change that law.  In my state, carrying weapons into a government building is not legal.  If MI makes that change, this whole issue goes away.  Most of the people who (legally) carried guns into the Michigan capitol wouldn't have done so if it was illegal.  Any that still did should be arrested. 

BicycleB

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2021, 08:08:16 PM »
@Imma, saddened by the riots near your home and appreciate your thoughtful recounting.

Dismayed by the tax enforcement system you describe, but also appreciating the explanation there.

GuitarStv

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2021, 10:32:34 PM »
I found the episode in the Michigan state capitol bizarre.    About 7 years ago we had 1 guy who got into the parliament buildings with a rifle and he was shot dead by the sergeant at arms.

The notion that a bunch of people with carbines would be allowed to enter a legislature building to try and intimidate the government is crazy.    And you say that not only were they not engaged by law enforcement, they had no consequences at all?

At the time, it was legal to open carry guns (but not umbrellas or signs on yardsticks – see photo in this linked article from the Detroit News) onto state capitol property. So no, no one who got past guards and onto the Senate floor was arrested. In fact, the event is considered a "dress rehearsal" for the Jan. 6 2021 insurrection (NY Times).

Quote
Police made only one arrest at the protest, Lt Brian Oleksyk, a Michigan state police spokesman, said. A 35-year-old male protester was arrested for assaulting another protester outside of the capitol building. While there was “a little bit of pushing” by protesters inside the building, Oleksyk said, “after verbally protesting for an hour, things calmed down.”

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol

So, if I understand correctly only one person was arrested because the rest didn't break the law?  That sounds reasonable.  (although I agree that open carrying into the state capitol during a protest was very poor taste)

As an aside, I am a gun owner and have my concealed carry license.  People with their concealed carry license are statically some of the most law abiding citizens you can possibly find.  More so that the police officers who enforce those same laws (or pretty much any other group you could name).  But, allowing citizens to carry guns into the capitol building does seem silly.  Michigan should change that law.  In my state, carrying weapons into a government building is not legal.  If MI makes that change, this whole issue goes away.  Most of the people who (legally) carried guns into the Michigan capitol wouldn't have done so if it was illegal.  Any that still did should be arrested.

You seem to be a big fan of people exercising their legal rights.

What are your thoughts on the police response to the (predominantly) unarmed BLM protestors and reporters across the country - the vast majority of them law abiding citizens.  Estimates are that more than 17,000 people were arrested in those - many of whom were not violent or breaking any laws . . . ultimately given reasons such as 'unlawful assembly' and 'disorderly conduct'.  There were recorded instances of police driving vehicles recklessly into crowds, posting on social media about their intent to incite a riot, purposely preventing people from leaving areas until after a curfew came into effect allowing them to make arrests, etc. (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd-killing-police-arrest-non-violent-protesters)

Why do you think the police response was so very different in the two situations?  Why do you think the armed folks appear to have so many more rights than those who are predominantly unarmed?

ericrugiero

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2021, 12:37:56 PM »
I found the episode in the Michigan state capitol bizarre.    About 7 years ago we had 1 guy who got into the parliament buildings with a rifle and he was shot dead by the sergeant at arms.

The notion that a bunch of people with carbines would be allowed to enter a legislature building to try and intimidate the government is crazy.    And you say that not only were they not engaged by law enforcement, they had no consequences at all?

At the time, it was legal to open carry guns (but not umbrellas or signs on yardsticks – see photo in this linked article from the Detroit News) onto state capitol property. So no, no one who got past guards and onto the Senate floor was arrested. In fact, the event is considered a "dress rehearsal" for the Jan. 6 2021 insurrection (NY Times).

Quote
Police made only one arrest at the protest, Lt Brian Oleksyk, a Michigan state police spokesman, said. A 35-year-old male protester was arrested for assaulting another protester outside of the capitol building. While there was “a little bit of pushing” by protesters inside the building, Oleksyk said, “after verbally protesting for an hour, things calmed down.”

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol

So, if I understand correctly only one person was arrested because the rest didn't break the law?  That sounds reasonable.  (although I agree that open carrying into the state capitol during a protest was very poor taste)

As an aside, I am a gun owner and have my concealed carry license.  People with their concealed carry license are statically some of the most law abiding citizens you can possibly find.  More so that the police officers who enforce those same laws (or pretty much any other group you could name).  But, allowing citizens to carry guns into the capitol building does seem silly.  Michigan should change that law.  In my state, carrying weapons into a government building is not legal.  If MI makes that change, this whole issue goes away.  Most of the people who (legally) carried guns into the Michigan capitol wouldn't have done so if it was illegal.  Any that still did should be arrested.

You seem to be a big fan of people exercising their legal rights.

What are your thoughts on the police response to the (predominantly) unarmed BLM protestors and reporters across the country - the vast majority of them law abiding citizens.  Estimates are that more than 17,000 people were arrested in those - many of whom were not violent or breaking any laws . . . ultimately given reasons such as 'unlawful assembly' and 'disorderly conduct'.  There were recorded instances of police driving vehicles recklessly into crowds, posting on social media about their intent to incite a riot, purposely preventing people from leaving areas until after a curfew came into effect allowing them to make arrests, etc. (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd-killing-police-arrest-non-violent-protesters)

Why do you think the police response was so very different in the two situations?  Why do you think the armed folks appear to have so many more rights than those who are predominantly unarmed?

It's very difficult to make broad sweeping statements without looking at each situation specifically.  Even looking at specific situations there are people who will report the portion of the events that make their side look good.  I'll make a some general statements about what I believe about the BLM protests. 
-  Most of protestors were well intentioned and genuinely wanted a peaceful protest to bring attention to the struggles of Blacks in our country today and make a positive change. 
-  There was a small percentage of trouble makers who intentionally started problems. 
-  There was a larger percentage people who got carried away in very passionate protests and acted in a way that was wrong.  Their initial intentions were good but the actions were wrong.  (This is clearly wrong but I understand how it could happen.  Mob mentality is powerful.)   
-  There was a small percentage that used the protests as an excuse to break into businesses and steal.
-  Most of police were well intentioned and wanted to allow a peaceful, legal protest while preventing violence and protecting the city. 
-  A significant percentage of police probably agreed with the point the protestors were making. 
-  A small percentage of police are racist and intentionally looked for opportunities to mistreat minorities. 
-  A larger percentage are not intentionally racist but got carried away with the us vs them nature of some of the protests and unintentionally stereotyped some of the protestors.  (This is clearly wrong but I understand how it could happen)   
-  It is VERY difficult for police to find the right balance of keeping the peace, allowing lawful protests, not reacting to insults, punishing people who incite violence and then hide in a crowd, not forming stereotypes, and managing their emotions correctly.  How many people think they could stand in front of a crowd that contains people shouting insults at you, throwing things at you, and threatening you without becoming defensive?   Could you differentiate between the people doing bad things and the innocent well-intentioned protestors? 
-  I would not want to be the one making decisions on how long to let peaceful protests go while trying to ensure they stayed peaceful.  Once mob mentality sets in things are very difficult to stop.  Knowing that some people are intentionally trying to cause problems makes things even worse.  Would you want to decide how long to allow a legal protest to take place?  What if the protest the night before turned ugly?  How about when to roll out the water cannons and tear gas?  Would you just allow your city to be looted and burned?  It's a delicate balance and many times the authorities are put in a situation where there is no good option. 

You are comparing one incident in which (from what I can tell) one person broke the law and was punished, to thousands of protests across the country.  Many of the BLM protests were peaceful with no "bad" interaction between the police and the protestors.  If we had thousands of protests like the one at the Michigan capitol building, who knows what the outcome would be. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2021, 01:19:58 PM »
Do you off-topic warriors really need to have yet another BLM debate in a thread that's clearly about, I don't know, EUROPE?

GuitarStv

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2021, 02:35:18 PM »
Hitler was European . . . if I compare Trump to him would that get a technical pass?  :P

Imma

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2021, 02:51:23 PM »
@Imma, saddened by the riots near your home and appreciate your thoughtful recounting.

Dismayed by the tax enforcement system you describe, but also appreciating the explanation there.

Thanks :) It's been a bit of a struggle for me. I'm a pacifist, I'm not a fan of our mayor, I'm not a fan of "tough on crime" politicians, I have a law degree and I wrote my thesis about constitutional law. Banning demonstrations doesn't feel right to me (even though in this particular instance the mayor was fully within his legal rights to do so) but I was absolutely shocked by the massive explosion of violence. I knew a curfew would be extremely controversial and there would be protests. But I had never in a million years expected this. If an angry violent mob comes to town, fighting back is really the only option you have.

Our mayor has submitted a timeline of events of the riots to an independent committee. According to him, the reason he gave the order to end the demonstration is that police officers had noticed a lot of people were openly carrying all sorts of weapons and the situation was becoming very tense. Even though the demonstration was banned ahead of time, the mayor only decided to intervene when there was a real risk of violence. This is just his version of events, the independent committee is still researching, but my gut feeling is our mayor had no other option but to intervene, since his main duty is to prevent civil disorder.

ericrugiero

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2021, 08:30:24 AM »
@Imma, saddened by the riots near your home and appreciate your thoughtful recounting.

Dismayed by the tax enforcement system you describe, but also appreciating the explanation there.

Thanks :) It's been a bit of a struggle for me. I'm a pacifist, I'm not a fan of our mayor, I'm not a fan of "tough on crime" politicians, I have a law degree and I wrote my thesis about constitutional law. Banning demonstrations doesn't feel right to me (even though in this particular instance the mayor was fully within his legal rights to do so) but I was absolutely shocked by the massive explosion of violence. I knew a curfew would be extremely controversial and there would be protests. But I had never in a million years expected this. If an angry violent mob comes to town, fighting back is really the only option you have.

Our mayor has submitted a timeline of events of the riots to an independent committee. According to him, the reason he gave the order to end the demonstration is that police officers had noticed a lot of people were openly carrying all sorts of weapons and the situation was becoming very tense. Even though the demonstration was banned ahead of time, the mayor only decided to intervene when there was a real risk of violence. This is just his version of events, the independent committee is still researching, but my gut feeling is our mayor had no other option but to intervene, since his main duty is to prevent civil disorder.

@Imma  I also appreciate your recounting of the events and the perspective you have on them.  Your opinions seem very reasonable.  I especially like that you are looking at the situation from the perspective of all the various participants and recognizing the struggles that each has.  Hopefully this violence is a one time thing and not a pattern that repeats itself. 

LennStar

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Re: What's Happening in Europe?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2021, 04:06:12 AM »
Hitler was European . . . if I compare Trump to him would that get a technical pass?  :P
Only if you are German.
Bonus points if you have done that (in a detailed way) at his first election.
Or in other words: I already did that a long time ago, so... no, it would not count.


 

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