What's funny about other countries?

[Half-Borg]

Hello there,
Inspired from the credit card discussion here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/german-thriftyness/
I guess some people like to hear how live works out someplace else.

So I start start with Germany

The most obvious difference is the Euro, there are some recent problems, but it's kind of as stable as the US$.
Current exchange rate is 1€:1.30US$.
The income level is about the same as in states, but as far is I know taxes and social security payments are way higher.

First of all there is mandatory health insurance at the cheap price of 8.2% of gross income. The employer must match another 7.3%, but you never pay more than 322€/month.
You are allowed to quit this system, if you earn more than 3937,50€/mo and get private health insurance, there is a lot of talk, if this is fair and if you should do that, since private health insurance companies tend to lure you in with some cheap deals and then upping the prices as you get older. You might not be able to go back to government health insurance.

There is also a retirement fund, where you pay 9.45% of gross income, employer matching another 9.45%.
With each year you earn points, 1 point for average income up to 2 points for double the average. When you retire you currently get 28.14€/mo for each of your points. However if retire before you're 67 there is a penalty.
So 40 years of steady average income get you 40 points, which in turn get you 1125.60€ retirement income (taxable).
Income above 5800€/mo doesn't count towards the fund, and you don't have to pay the 9.45% on that part.

Taxes are getting higher with income, I'm currently paying 24% of gross income with 60000€/year.

Schools and colleges are free, you can get a zero interest loan for college, which will about cover living expenses. If you earn money or your parents make enough that they could pay your expenses the money you can loan is lower.
There are private schools and colleges, but they are somewhat unheard of. I personally know nobody who has ever attended one and I'm from a quite academic background.

One more thing comes to mind: Much stricter firearm laws!
I don't know anyone who has a gun at home, nor have I personally ever touched one. You have to get a license to buy one, which will include some hours training on laws and stuff, there must be no reason to doubt that you're psychological fit to carry a weapon (e.g. it would be much harder to get one if you have some sort of criminal record) and last but not least, you must have a reason to want one. This can be hunting, which would only allow for hunting weapons and ammunition or personal defense, which includes a prove that you are more endangered that the average guy and that a firearm would be a benefit (that one is real hard to prove) or sports, which usually include locking away the weapon at your sports location.
Violent crimes in Germany are a lot less likely to involve firearms than in the USA, but not unheard of. Also the overall crime rate is somewhat lower.
The first time I ever heard a gunshot, apart from the occasional hunter, I was 21 and went to the first trip to America. However, that one was in Vancouver, so Canada is no better :P

Also most young people speak a second language, for people who want to go to college a third language is mandatory, at least in my state.

So go ahead ask some questions, punch me, where the differences are smaller than I thought and share something about your country :)

Half-Borg

//EDIT: Just want to get at another thing: NAZIS
These guys are really hated around here, whenever there are 20 nazis demonstrating for their cause, there are about 2000 people booing them down (a good thing), sometimes it get's so hefty, that the police has to protect the nazis against outright violence (not so good).

//EDIT2: And one more CARS
Germans tend to not buy trucks, a Dodge RAM is about as common as an Lamborghini. However cars are still in the expensive area, with Audi, BMW, Mercedes being all german.
Gas is more expensive, currently at 1.50€/liter, that's 7.5$/gallon. About 40% of all cars are diesel, because they get better milage and is at a lower price at 1.45€/l

[Christof]

Social security in Germany is separate from retirement benefits. Eligibility to social security starts with birth and ends with death. Monthly benefits range between 224 Euro for a kid to 382 Euros for a single adult. In addition to that all reasonable expense for housing, furniture, pregnancy, illness, etc. are covered as well. Recipients of social security are automatically health insured and do not pay taxes. All in all, a family with two kids would receive 1,500-1,700 Euros per month for the rest of their live.

One important requirement of social security is that one has to make every reasonable effort to find a job. So you have to proof a number of applications per month, participate in government provided educational courses and might be required to do community services (which pay an extra Euro per hour).

The other important requirement is that you must use your savings before you become eligible. There are a few exceptions: One might keep one reasonable priced house/apartment, one reasonable priced car, savings of up to 9750 Euros (depending on age) and retirement savings if you can't legally access them before age 65.

[Albert]

Some interesting things about Switzerland. I'm not a native Swiss, but have lived here for the last four years and have learned some things.

The currency is a Swiss franc which is considered a "safety currency" and thus has gone up significantly in the last few years vs both USD and EUR. Salaries tend to be significantly higher than in US, particularly if we exclude the top quartile. The average full time salary is about 70,000 CHF/year (ca 75k USD), but relatively few women work full time so the GDP per capita doesn't look quite as high.

Taxes are relatively low, but very dependent from location. I live in a relatively high tax area and pay about 18% on 120k (USD) income. In addition I also pay 7% in the retirement fund (mandatory, but one could pay 5%), ca 2% accident insurance + unemployment insurance and I also have to buy my own health insurance which costs me about 450 $/month. Schools and colleges are free, but childcare if you need it is very expensive. It all might sound super nice from a financial point of view, but there is also a drawback - very high prices for pretty much everything. Some random examples - gas 1.8 CHF/l (ca 8 $/gallon), haircut 45 $, cheap meal in a restaurant 35 $ (easily 100 $ in a city and with wine), rye bread 3 $, grapes 7 $/kg.

Crime is very low, in rural areas almost unheard off. There is an excellent public transportation including the world's densest train network. Prices are very high for tourists (Zurich-Genva 100 $ one way), but locals can buy a half fare card (about 190 $ for 3 years) which allows one to buy everything for half a price. In addition commuter traffic is heavily subsidised, I only pay about 60$ a month for my pass of Basel area. Full price ticket would be 25 $ a day!

By European standards Swiss are not particularly generous with social payments. They would pay your basic expenses and accommodation, but only once you have exhausted your own savings and have shown willingness to look for a job. Unemployment insurance, on the other hand, is quite generous (max 18 months, 70% of previous salary). Swiss citizenship is difficult to obtain, that being part of the reason why ca 20% of the population are foreigners.

Accommodation costs are high, but not really any higher than in say NYC. In Basel you can rent a nice 3 room apartment in a good area for about 2000 $/month. Property prices are sky high and full ownership is discouraged by law (very unfavourable taxes). Most Swiss property owners pay to the bank all their lives. I don't know all the fine details though since I still rent.

Education level is relatively high and the quality of schools are not widely dependent on location. Most Swiss speak at least 2 languages, more ofter 3-4. In German speaking area where I live German, English and French are the most common.

[Half-Borg]

I have been to Zurich for a day, on the way to south eastern europe, including Hungary, Kroatia and Serbia.
We spend about as much in 12 hours in Zurich as in 3 days in Belgrade. Swiss is indeed insanely expensive!

I just want to add, that Swiss is a tri-language country, German, French and Italian.

How hard is it to get a work permit in Swiss?

[Albert]

I just want to add, that Swiss is a tri-language country, German, French and Italian.

Right, but the language areas are geographically separated and there is not all that much movement between them. Swiss learn at least one of the other languages in school, but as a foreigner all you need is the one spoken in your area. French speaking Swiss, particularly the younger generation, are rarely fluent in German. I speak English instead on those rare occasions I travel there.

How hard is it to get a work permit in Swiss?

Some restrictions were introduced recently, but few years ago it was very easy for EU citizens. All you needed was a job offer. For non-EU citizens it's more complicated, but big multinationals are able to bring in people from pretty much anywhere when really needed by claiming that those people have unique skills. By the way Germans are the biggest immigrant group (ca 300,000) and that is not counting those who live in Germany and only commute to work in Switzerland.  Lot of Italians, Serbians and Portuguese as well.

[brighteye]

Actually Switzerland has four official languages: German, French, Italian and Rumantsch. Not a lot of people speak it anymore though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language

House prices have gotten ridiculously high in the last years. Granted, I currently live in a expensive part real-estate wise, but for a house you would have to pay around $ 1 Mio.. That you can buy a house in the US for $100'000 is so strange for me.

[Albert]

House prices have gotten ridiculously high in the last years. Granted, I currently live in a expensive part real-estate wise, but for a house you would have to pay around $ 1 Mio.. That you can buy a house in the US for $100'000 is so strange for me.

Is that for a mansion in the mountains or a house close to downtown Zurich? Real estate is indeed very expensive, but one could still have a pretty nice house in the nearby villages for no more than half of that.

[Jamesqf]

I just want to add, that Swiss is a tri-language country, German, French and Italian.

Right, but the language areas are geographically separated and there is not all that much movement between them. Swiss learn at least one of the other languages in school, but as a foreigner all you need is the one spoken in your area. French speaking Swiss, particularly the younger generation, are rarely fluent in German. I speak English instead on those rare occasions I travel there.

What's really irritating is that as soon as they hear you try to say something and realize you're a native English speaker, they switch to English, so you never get a chance to practice speaking the language.

It is amazing, though, to see some of the people in customer service jobs (like the teller at my bank branch) who could carry on conversation in three or four languages, switching to a different language for each sentence.  I'll never understand how they can do that: I have to concentrate to switch, and even then, it's like my brain has two language bins, English and "foreign", so if I try to say something in French and can't think of a work, it might get replaced with the Spanish or Japanese equivalent.

PS: Agree about the house prices.  Granted where I lived (Lausanne) was a pretty high-priced part of the country, but $1 million for a house wasn't unusual.

[brighteye]

There are still some areas where you can find cheaper houses in Switzerland, but even at half the price ($500000), the comparison with the US is mind-boggling (at least to me). I was talking about the area around Lake Lucerne and Zug, but Zurich and parts of the Romandie (around Geneva) are really expensive too. I am not complaining, but that fact makes becoming a landlord much harder.
Ok, enough off-topic talk.

[woodpecker]

Two things to add to Germany:

Germans enjoy quite a high number of leave days, at least compared to the US.

Here the minimum number of leave days by law is 24 days, average is 28, in large companies more, my company e.g. it is 33 days.
Plus you have an average of 10-12 public holidays (which can fall on weekends if you are unlucky though).

I wouldn't mind some more days off, but its a good start, I guess only the nordic countries do have more days off (Sweden e.g. I think the average is 36 days).

Germany is very de-centralized.

I don't know about the US, but unlike most other European Countries, Germany lacks an outstanding economic and cultural center or "dominant city".
Obviously Berlin as the capital plays a certain role as a political center, but in terms of economics, jobs, chances etc. there are at least 5-6 equally attractive other areas, depending on what you are looking for.
This is very different from UK, France, Austria, Sweden, Spain etc. where you mostly see a very dominant capital city plus only a few and comparatively minor other important areas.
As industy (and universities) is pretty spread out too, in Germany there are many people who made a decent career working in "Mittelstand" (medium sized family companies) without ever living in a city larger than 50k inhabitants.

Cheers,
Woodpecker

[Christof]

28 is the average number of vacation days. There's no limit on sick days. Employers have to pay the salary for 6 weeks per incident, after that the health insurance company picks up the bill. The average number of sick days is around 10-15 per year and employee. In some companies parents have an extra but limited amount of sick days to take care of their kids. Usually that's around five days per year.

[woodpecker]

... and you virtually cannot be fired in Germany if you are working for a major company. At least as long as they are making profits...

Actually if you are an employee it is quite a good country to be, I'd say.

Problem is that you have the high tax and social security burden and flexibility of the system is low.
E.g. you cannot take your kids off school for travelling or something. Once they are in, you are tied to high-price, overcrouded peak season.
Also Sabbaticals and similar are still quite rare.

Woodpecker

[Christof]

E.g. you cannot take your kids off school for travelling or something.

True! Home schooling is illegal here in Germany and the school authorities might send the police to pick up your kids if you refuse to send them.  There are private schools, here, though, for those that do not agree with the official curriculum.

[Albert]

Switzerland is a bit less generous with vacation days than Germany or France, but still vastly better than in US or Asia. I work for a big company and currently I have 25 working days of regular vacation. I can also take every quarter 2 days on overtime which is easy to accumulate plus there are 12 federal/cantonal holidays which are free for all as well. In our company taking all holidays is mandatory for all except senior management and everyone has to take at least two weeks in a row. Sick days are also paid by the company, not sure what the limit is. I'm a healthy guy and have used just one day since I live here (4 years).

[GuitarStv]

E.g. you cannot take your kids off school for travelling or something.

True! Home schooling is illegal here in Germany and the school authorities might send the police to pick up your kids if you refuse to send them.

I wish that we had similar policies in place.  Home schooling in Canada is not often of high quality, and tends to produce people with large knowledge gaps.

[Half-Borg]

How common is home schooling over there?
I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

[Albert]

I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

It is indeed often done for religious reasons, but certainly not always. Quality of course varies, but the same is true for regular schools as well.

[woodpecker]

I think overall the school system here in Germany is quite OK. And most of all for us frugal lovers: its completely free! Even books are provided for.

The only problem that I have with the strict rules is that there is simply no way to get your kids out for 3 or 4 months in a block to do a sabbatical, or e.g. a prolonged sailing cruise with them, like a friend from Sweden did (and what I would love to do myself).
These guys over their "only" had to proof that they are able to teach their kids themselves during that time - and off they went!

woodpecker

[BlueMR2]

I wish that we had similar policies in place.  Home schooling in Canada is not often of high quality, and tends to produce people with large knowledge gaps.

I have very mixed feelings about home schooling.  There's certainly a large basis of common knowledge that we all depend on in daily life.  With a home schooler, there's less oversight (still is some of course, you can't just yank your kids out and go off and do whatever you want with them) and that does result in some curious mismatches in the "common" knowledge.  OTOH, our schools here in the USA are really quite terrible.  You end up on one of 2 tracks.  Either you'll be a factory line worker or prepped to be in management when you get out.  Anything other than that (sciences, liberal arts, etc) requires massive effort to attain.  So many people come out of school and end up in jobs they hate simply because our dysfunctional school systems never even offered them opportunities to learn about the things they might like and be good at.  The home schoolers I know are as a group VERY successful and happy, MUCH more so than the traditionally educated.  If we could offer that some opportunity to everyone, how great would that be!?

[Spork]

How common is home schooling over there?
I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

I only have one friend (USA) that homeschools.  She's atheist.

[BlueMR2]

How common is home schooling over there?
I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

I only have one friend (USA) that homeschools.  She's atheist.

I've seen it to be a mixed bag of the extremists on either side.  The centrists just default to the public schools (or sometimes private schools when they can find one that aligns with their beliefs).  The extreme conservatives home school (and are the ones typically shown in the media).  The extreme liberals also home school, but don't manage to show up in the press.

[Spork]

How common is home schooling over there?
I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

I only have one friend (USA) that homeschools.  She's atheist.

I've seen it to be a mixed bag of the extremists on either side.  The centrists just default to the public schools (or sometimes private schools when they can find one that aligns with their beliefs).  The extreme conservatives home school (and are the ones typically shown in the media).  The extreme liberals also home school, but don't manage to show up in the press.

My example is probably an outlier.... closer to libertarian.  And it's due to a special needs child.  Her other kids are mainstream.  I was just being contrarian.

[grantmeaname]

I think in this as in many things, there are also people who are just repeating the ways they were raised. I know of kids from at least two families who were homeschooled because their parents were homeschooled, and at least for the second generation political extremism had little to do with it.

[Spork]

so... back to the OT... I'll give it a shot.

An American's view of Sweden based on a little time there and a ton of Swedish friends (possibly tainted):
* the taxes.  Holy crap the taxes.  Yes, I know they have more services.  But when you're getting taxed on the free t shirt you get at work or your parking space: something's wrong.
* as a result of the previous: there is a big black market of what we'd think of as "normal stuff"
* Sex is just a don't freaking care thing.  Hardcore porn on broadcast tv a little after the nightly news. 
* You're standing at the checkout line and can't read any of the rags there... but a few of them have "fuck" in the title.
* Taking the last two, you'd think it's a breakdown of morals, but... something we'd think of as the norm like a movie with a lot of violence is like saying "fuck" in line at the supermarket or playing hardcore porn on tv.  Perspective: find it.
* beware of "ground meat" in the grocery store if you are a horse lover
* they tend to live in higher cost of living areas, much smaller foot print homes, higher taxes, lower salaries -- and they still have plenty.  I don't attribute this as much to the higher government services as I do to the fact that we just don't realize how much damn stuff we have.
* everyone has a summer house where they can get away.  (And every one of them is painted either yellow or a rusty red: almost as if it is required by law).  They're usually rustic and REALLY DAMN COOL.  They're a nice damn place to hang out and drink a 12% beer.

[BlackRat]

Well, I can give a bit of info on Australia - I'm only a student still, so I haven't experienced much of the big bad world (or the dark side of Australian red tape yet).

The government gives loans that cover university tuition (at subsidised rates) that go up with inflation, but don't charge other interest. Unless you choose to pay these off early they will be paid back as a percentage of your salary after you earn over ~$50k. The prices for international students are much higher - I've heard of lecturers quitting because of management pressuring them to pass international students just because the universities make more money from them but don't know how common it is.

Interest rates are much higher, on savings accounts(3-4.5% aren't hard to find) and for mortgages(5-6.5% are common) and house prices are generally higher than the US, properties with a positive cash flow are hard to find, a lot of people buy real estate chiefly for the capital gains (I'd be interested to know if people think we have a bubble, or if the prices are justified?). The government offers first home buyer grants in some states, but some now only offer them for people buying a new house ($7000 for a new house in Victoria, previously there were $7-10,000 grants for existing houses).

About 65% of Australians live in metropolitan areas and nearby suburbs (not including large regional centres, even those with 100,000K+ - remember there are only 22 million of us anyway, so that is large). Um, most of Australia is quite arid or has very unpredictable rainfall (particularly places like WA and central Australia, which tend to get all their rain at the one time or not at all) - farming in these areas is marginal and can lead to environmental damage and starving/dying/cheap animals (eg. Queensland at the moment).

I'm not sure how taxes stand compared to other countries but we have what I consider a very generous social security scheme (centrelink) - I receive it because I'm a student and my parents have a low income - I live very well and put $200 a month in savings, and I can earn up to $200/week without affecting this. I'm not particularly proud of getting it but I'm not about to refuse, there isn't much stigma attached to this, at least as a student, most of my friends also get this. Unemployment benefits depend on the person being able to prove they're looking for a job, similar to other countries. We have compulsory superannuation of 9% that employers contribute to funds for employees who can make additional contributions, this is gradually being increased up to 12%.

Food is expensive compared to the US but not when compared with Europe (I believe), most food is from supermarkets although there are a few groceries and more farmers markets popping up (but farmers markets are usually more expensive than supermarkets). Petrol is ~$1.48/L and autogas(LPG) ~$0.62/L (or 85c in remote rural towns as I recently found out!).

Someone mentioned laws about guns; you need a licence to buy one and to get that you need to do a safety course (which is designed to be hard to fail), background checks and you need proof of a purpose for wanting one (being a member of a hunting club or written permission from a large landholder to hunt on their land if hunting is your reason). They must be kept in a locked safe bolted to a building/structure with ammunition in a separate locked place and the police can come to inspect it after giving you a phonecall to let you know. Its not uncommon for people in the country to own firearms, but less people are as time goes on - in the city its much less common, as you might imagine.

Someone older could definitely give you a better idea of taxes, retirement and working conditions.

[brighteye]

Here in Switzerland (and Liechtenstein), license plates are "plate-to-owner". The department of motor vehicles (DMV) organises a yearly auction for the "good" numbers. Good are considered those that have a low number, usually 4-digit and 5-digit plates with catchy numbers, e.g. 22022 or something like that.
People are willing to pay big money to have a low number on their license plate. Prices start at $500 but go as high as $20000 or more.

Not crazy enough?
Here is how the reasoning goes:
"Well, if you have an expensive car, it just looks better with a nice low number."
"People also spend a lot of money for tires or rims, so they might as well spend a couple of thousand for a nice looking license plate."

[Taffy]

Taiwan.

• If you're relatively rich, you'll drive an S-class Mercedes, but your home will still be an ugly concrete piece of shit with bare white walls, tile flooring and cheap furniture.
• One of the highest population densities in the world, so regular folk live in 400 sq. ft. apartments, on the 27th floor. You will see very few buildings under five floors unless you get well out into the sticks.
• Low, low taxes. After income tax and compulsory health insurance, about 92% of my stated salary shows up in my bank account each month. The health service is efficient and very cheap (co-pay is US$3 per visit, standards are first-world).
• A housing bubble like you wouldn't believe (in the capital), and a massive rent/mortgage imbalance. My US$600 p.m. apartment would cost US$600,000 to buy.
• Families that stick together. Many children live at home until they get married, and often if the son does find a wife, she moves in with his parents. Family comes before everything else, and parents often take an interest in their (adult) children's lives that Westerners would find extremely intrusive.
• Adultery and "public insult" are criminal offences. People go to prison for shagging someone else's wife, and get big fines for telling someone to fuck off in public. Oh, and abandoning your parents—refusing to look after them once they retire—is also a criminal offence.
• Labour law and enforcement massively favours employers. Your first year in a job, you get no paid vacation time. Second year, you get seven days. Constructive dismissal is a very common way to get rid of an employee you don't like, and I've never heard of a company being successfully sued for doing so. Salaries haven't gone up (for office grunts) in sixteen years (accounting for inflation).
• Kids work insane hours. Typical schedule for a 14-year-old: school from 8 until 4, "cram" school from 4 until 10, homework when they finally do get home. Six days a week.
• A few motor scooters, here and there.
  
  
• Stunning mountains and coastline.
  
  
• 100 Mbps broadband is US$30 a month

[Christof]

That's fascinating about Taiwan. I was aware that family bounds in other countries are much tighter than in Northern European countries and the US, but a criminal offence not to take care of your parents? I had no idea.

What is a "cram" school, though?

[Taffy]

Cram schools are private institutions that offer extra classes in key subjects: maths, Chinese, English, science. Parents aim to keep their kids as far ahead of the class level as possible, and examinations for the top universities are super competitive, so kids are cramming for them years in advance. Also as parents are generally (both) working long hours, the cram schools perform an auxiliary function as babysitters.

A common saying here is that "cram schools teach, public schools test". Everyone knows the system is broken, and that kids suffer for it, but every time reforms are mooted they manage to screw it up.

[Albert]

That's how some of those very high scores for education compared to other countries are produced in East Asia (PISA assessment etc). I don't think it's worth it.

[Taffy]

That's right. Maths scores way ahead of the West. Taiwan produces huge numbers of engineers, but because the school system beats creativity out of kids from an early age, there is a dearth of people with other skills to round out the economy and society as a whole. You can't teach innovation through rote learning.

Periodically you'll see articles in Western newspapers talking about how we should emulate the school systems of East Asia. As someone who lives in such a society, I think it would be a huge mistake to emulate this model. Not as saying that there aren't big problems with the US/UK systems, of course, but this isn't the way to fix them.

[GuitarStv]

How common is home schooling over there?
I can't get rid of the thought that only hardcore christian rednecks are doing homeschooling, but I'm sure that's just prejudices.

It's not particularly common . . . most of the people I know who do home school pulled their kids out of public education for religious reasons.  (Don't want their kids to learn about evolution, don't want to expose their kids to sex education, don't want their kids to grow up thinking that gay people should be tolerated, etc.)  It's really a form of child abuse.

[Daleth]

Ok, how about France? Several years back when France finally put its income tax filing system online, I ran a side-by-side comparison for a single person with no kids earning $80k a year in France vs. the US. The hypothetical French person only ended up paying about $1200/year more in taxes than the hypothetical American, in part because they only have one layer of income taxes there (the equivalent of federal income tax). No state, no local. And then once you factored in the cost of health insurance, Mr. Hypothetical French Dude came out well ahead.

I fondly recall the following from when I lived there:

• It cost $20 to see a general practitioner, $30 to see a specialist, and you got 65% of that back from your insurance by sending in a one-page claim form that took 30 seconds to fill out (or if you signed up to pay with your special health insurance debit card, you just paid the 35% copay instead of having to send in the claim form)
• Anytime I needed a doctor, I had an appointment within a day or two. Specialists? 2-4 days.
• All pharmaceutical drugs cost 5-6 times less there than they do here. And that's the price BEFORE you get partially reimbursed by your insurance.
• When a friend's grandma had a nervous breakdown, a nurse came TO HER HOUSE twice a day to give her injections of the drugs she needed. A month of this only cost the family a grand total of about $330.
• Quality of care? Excellent. This is, after all, the country that discovered the AIDS virus, came up with the drugs cocktail that turned AIDS into a chronic illness rather than a death sentence, performed the first face transplant, etc.

It's amazing what you can do with your tax dollars when you don't spend them invading other countries.

[ep114]

Duluth- Thanks for the trip down memory lane! I was an exchange student in France in high school and the father in the family was a doctor. One thing that stuck out for me was that is someone needed an appointment with the doctor, they would get one, no problem. Not like here where you'll have beg, plead and cajole to get past the front desk staff or be told the 1st available appointment is in 4 months. My host family never really believed me about that...it was inconceivable to them.  And he did make house calls. And went to a poor town once a week for the people who didn't have easy access to transportation.  He also had a large medicine cabinet (room, really) so he could dispense drugs if he had them on hand. (That was the topic of some fun bickering between the husband and wife- he thought she was taking too many things for recreational use. Maybe not fun for them, but it was fun for me to watch.) All in all, it was a pretty impressive and civilized system. I hope we get back on track here.

[Albert]

Medicine in France is fine although the taxes they pay for it are significant, but there are other problems there. I live in a walking distance from the border and many of my co-workers commute from France...

[killingxspree]

Well, I can give a bit of info on Australia - I'm only a student still, so I haven't experienced much of the big bad world (or the dark side of Australian red tape yet).

You were very succinct =). Just thought I would add some things about healthcare although this may not be 100% accurate because I'm not nuanced in all the particulars.
Health coverage in Australia operates through a two tier system - public and private healthcare.
Public healthcare or 'Medicare' provides free universal hospital coverage and subsidized healthcare. It is paid for not by your employer like in many countries but instead through your income and through general revenue. Almost everybody pays for Medicare through a levy on their income. There are different thresholds for when the levy kicks in depending on whether you are a family or individual. You may be exempt or partially exempt for a number of reasons one of them is low income. The levy is 1.5% of income rising to 2% in 2014. If you are a high income earner (again this threshold depends on whether you are a family or individual) then you may pay an additional surcharge of 1% called the Medicare Levy Threshold if you do not have sufficient private health coverage. This is to discourage high income earners from over-burdening the public system.
Anyone can choose to buy private health coverage for themselves at any time. Depending on your income you may also be eligible for a rebate on the fees. If you have not taken out private hospital coverage by the time you are 31. When you do your premiums will include a 2% loading p.a. for the next 10 years. The loading only applies to hospital coverage and not for extras.
If you are on a Centrelink payment you will probably also have a healthcare card. This is a card that allows you to receive healthcare for free or for highly subsidized prices.

Here are some random examples of what our healthcare covers:
-Public hospital care is free including medication.
-Ambulance is not free. Ambulance insurance is very cheap at $40 a year for singles and very recommended unless you want to pay between $2000-$5000 for a ride.
-You may be charged a fee to visit your General Practitioner or it may be free depending on whether your GP 'bulk bills'. If your GP bulk bills that means they charge the scheduled rate for a consultation. Your consultation is free. Some charge more. If they charge more you pay not just the extra (the 'gap') but the entire fee. (this is what I meant by subsidized care) For example I think the bulk bill rate for a consultation is $70. If your doctor charges $90 you pay the entire fee at the time of the consultation and then claim the difference back, ($20), from your local Medicare office. This is inconvenient and annoying. Ergo, specialists too. (you must be referred to a specialist by your GP)
-For elective procedures through the public system you can pay extra to reduce waiting times. For example my father needed a benign growth cut out. He paid about $1000 dollars and got it cut out in a week.

Medication is subsidized through a government program called the pharmaceutical benefits scheme. The government negotiates the prices of certain medications with drug companies. Not all medication is covered but most essential medications are. If they are not you have to pay full price for the medication set by the drug company.

I believe there is some sort of public dental scheme but it is not easily or widely accessible, partially run by universities for teaching purposes. I think it has long waiting lists and to qualify you must be a pensioner or have a healthcare card. For dental emergencies we have a public dental hospital. In any case I think most people see private dentist and opticians but I believe the fees are subsidized by the government. You can take out private health coverage for these items (and other extras like physio, chiro, psychologist) and for hospital coverage (this means you have the choice to use a public hospital or a private hospital) to reduce the cost, waiting times and provide more sufficient coverage.

Other interesting things about Australia:
It snows in parts of Australia. New South Wales and Victoria receive the most substantial amounts of snow through the great dividing range. Two popular ski resorts are Mt Buller in Victoria and Thredbo in NSW. Our ski season is short, often sucks and is extremely overpriced to boot.

Also our tax rate is progressive (I copy and pasted this from wikipedia but its accurate) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Australia#Personal_Income_Tax):

Taxable income   Tax on this income   Effective tax rate
0 – $18,200   Nil   0%
$18,201 – $37,000   19c for each $1 over $18,200   0 – 9.7%
$37,001 – $80,000   $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000   9.7 – 21.9%
$80,001 – $180,000   $17,547 plus 37c for each $1 over $80,000   21.9 – 30.3%
$180,001 and over   $58,118 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000   30.3 – 44.9%
The above rates do not include the Medicare levy of 1.5%

Also Property in Australia is not taxed like in the US. We pay yearly rates to our local council but they are typically a very small percentage of the value of the property for example in the area I live a property worth $507,000 would pay $1,169.60 in rates. (0.00230691%) Also pensioners get a discount.

[Zamboni]

People are willing to pay big money to have a low number on their license plate. Prices start at $500 but go as high as $20000 or more.

This really made me laugh.

How about the Netherlands?  I haven't lived there, so no information on taxes/healthcare, but here's what I gathered from a short student exchange trip:
Transportation by bicycle and public transit is normal. 
Many adults do not have a driver's license, which is very difficult to obtain (compared to American standards.) 
It's common for people to have "domestic contracts" instead of marriages.
The couple I stayed with had such a contract and they also had 5 children from two different previous marriages, but such a big family is not the norm. 
The Mom was very proud of their townhouse (5 stories, basically one room per floor), that their kitchen had all of the modern conveniences although everything was dorm size (I have no idea how she cooked for 7 in there, but she did quite well), and that they had a car, which was a subcompact station wagon. 
The Dad, who was in his 40's, had never driven a car.  He rode his bike to work, and the kids all rode bikes to school.
A bike "off the rack" from the store there comes fully equipped with a lock, head and tail lights, etc.  They would consider the bikes in our stores to be oddly stripped down.
There are separate and very well maintained bicycle lanes everywhere.
If you accidentally walk in the bicycle lane thinking it's a sidewalk, then people riding by will curse at you in different languages until they find one you understand.
Almost everyone is fluent in Dutch and English, but you will get cursed at in German and French as well if you keep walking in the bike lane.
The land in that area was completely flat, so very easy cycling.
"Hoodlum" gangs of high school male teenagers can be found in certain places hanging around, smoking, and trying to look cool and ferocious while astride bicycles that look like the one Dorothy rode in The Wizard of Oz.  I had to suppress a grin every time I saw these guys.
Housing and land are extremely expensive.
Food in the college cafeteria was very healthy choices only.  Maybe that has changed?
As others have pointed out about other countries, sex and foul language are no big deal.  There was a giant billboard of two horses getting it on near the highway:  no idea what it was advertising!
And yes, they do put mayonaise on their French Fries at MacDonald's.

[Daleth]

Medicine in France is fine although the taxes they pay for it are significant, but there are other problems there. I live in a walking distance from the border and many of my co-workers commute from France...

Oh, there's no place without problems. I never found the taxes I paid for health insurance to be that significant, though, especially considering I'm from and have also lived/worked in the USA, where most people pay two or even three levels of income tax, property taxes are through the roof (they're relatively minimal in France), and people actually complain about things like having to pay for the public education system ("I don't have any kids! Why am I paying for that?!" Answer: Because presumably you want your mechanics, nurses, doctors, bank tellers, cops, etc. to be able to read and write... and not to mention, would you really rather have a few grand more a year but be surrounded by illiterate people?!? Move to the goddamn Sudan if that's what you want! /rant over).

For those who care, here's how healthcare works in France. Just mentioning this because there are many ways to have socialized healthcare--I lived in the UK too and didn't like the healthcare system there, but France's system is completely different. Anyway:

There's one insurance company, owned by the taxpayers/the state, that provides basic insurance to everyone and negotiates rates for everything. (Basically their message is, "Hey, doctors, drug companies, etc.! We have 60 million customers! If you want our customers, here's how much you can charge..."). The doctors, meanwhile, are independent professionals, not (as in the UK) state employees. Because there's one insurance company for everyone, the paperwork is next to nothing--even before they introduced healthcare debit cards, it was just a one-page form that the doctor spent 30 seconds writing the diagnosis/treatment on and signing, you spent 30 seconds writing your name/address/etc on and mailing it, and you soon got a check in the mail reimbursing you for 65% of the cost of seeing the doctor. Ditto pharmaceuticals--a one-page form. Now they use cards, so your doctor swipes a card and gets paid automatically.

The lack of PAPERWORK means doctors don't need an army of SECRETARIES/BILLING PEOPLE to get paid... which means doctors don't need to charge nearly as much, because they don't have to hire those employees or pay rent for the space they occupy.

You get reimbursed at a higher rate if you pick one doctor and stick with them as your main family doctor, but you have the right to see any doctor you want. You can go straight to a specialist if you have a specialist-type problem; no need for a referral. Also, I noticed that doctors take turns being "the dude whose house you go to in an emergency"--they post a sign in a window of their house so you know a doctor lives there, and in higher-density areas where there are likely to be lots of emergencies doctors will sometimes trade off so this doctor posts the sign on Mondays and Wednesdays, that doctor posts it on Tuesdays and Thursdays, etc. Does your kid need stitches? If it's minor you don't go to the ER, you just go to the local doctor's house and he or she takes care of it for you, and bills the One Big Insurance Company mentioned previously. It's so SENSIBLE!

There are also insurance companies that offer secondary policies that you can buy if you want to, which add bells and whistles to your coverage. For instance, if a doctor's visit is normally reimbursed at 65%, your secondary insurance might fill the gap so you're actually reimbursed at 80% in total; the secondary insurance also covers some services not covered under the normal insurance. For instance, add $50 or $100/mo to your family health insurance costs and in addition to various other bells and whistles, you might now have coverage to have A HELPER COME TO YOUR HOUSE to get the kids ready for school (!!!) when both parents are sick, or one parent is sick and the other one's not there, or the parent is a single parent and is sick, or mom is recovering from childbirth and dad has to be at work early this week.

Oh, and did I mention that if you're infertile, as long as the woman is under 43 you get three free attempts at IVF? That's with the basic insurance that everyone has, not the secondary insurance.

Sigh. That's what happens when you have a government that's actually FOR THE PEOPLE, not for big business.

Oh, and last but not least, college tuition is around $300/year.

[Christof]

A bike "off the rack" from the store there comes fully equipped with a lock, head and tail lights, etc.  They would consider the bikes in our stores to be oddly stripped down.

I never considered that a typical bike bought in a bike shop could not be immediately usable and fully equipped. But then, it shows only how I'm conditioned by what is "normal" in Germany. Most of the equipment (like lights) are required by law here. We would probably see more stripped down bikes if that would not be the case.

[Jamesqf]

Child abuse? I homeschool my kids, and I can assure you they have been better off for it. Our public schools aren't great here, I already was a stay at home mom, I used to teach, etc. It is certainly not a form of child abuse for a mother to prefer educating her own kids. My kids standardized test scores are all in the 90th percentile of higher, they have a thirst for knowledge that isn't commonly found in kids.

I'd have to say that you're an exception, though.  From what I've seen, most homeschooling (and no few charter schools) is motivated by a desire to prevent the kids from encountering ideas that conflict with the parents' religion.

[grantmeaname]

From what I've seen, most homeschooling (and no few charter schools) is motivated by a desire to prevent the kids from encountering ideas that conflict with the parents' religion.

I'll call your anecdote and raise you an anecdote! From what I've seen, that happens literally none of the time.

[GuitarStv]

From what I've seen, most homeschooling (and no few charter schools) is motivated by a desire to prevent the kids from encountering ideas that conflict with the parents' religion.

I'll call your anecdote and raise you an anecdote! From what I've seen, that happens literally none of the time.

I know three kids who have been home schooled for religious reasons.  Actually I was trapped in a corner of a room at a party last year with no means of escape and a homeschooling mother who was quite angrily telling me what she thought of public schools teaching ridiculousness like 'evolution', and her outrage that 'the gays' were tolerated in school.

If you're willing to put in a huge amount of time to educate yourself as well or better than an elementary school teacher, to research the curriculum standards and ensure that you're teaching them properly, to find other children and adults for your homeschooled child to interact with so they don't become strange shut-ins, to involve others who are also education specialists for the areas that you are unable to master . . . well, then you're probably giving your kid a class A and first rate education.  And kudos!  That's a lot of work, but clearly something you believe strongly in.  You're doing a great job.

If you're not, and simply figure that your God of choice is not being represented enough in the science taught in a classroom . . . you figure that kids are stupid, and that things you don't understand very well aren't important . . . well . . . that's the child abuse situation I was referring to earlier.


Wiki says that the number one reason people home school is for religious reasons . . . so I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that more people fall into the latter than the former.

[daverobev]

Oh, there's no place without problems. I never found the taxes I paid for health insurance to be that significant, though, especially considering I'm from and have also lived/worked in the USA, where most people pay two or even three levels of income tax, property taxes are through the roof (they're relatively minimal in France), and people actually complain about things like having to pay for the public education system ("I don't have any kids! Why am I paying for that?!" Answer: Because presumably you want your mechanics, nurses, doctors, bank tellers, cops, etc. to be able to read and write... and not to mention, would you really rather have a few grand more a year but be surrounded by illiterate people?!? Move to the goddamn Sudan if that's what you want! /rant over).

For those who care, here's how healthcare works in France. Just mentioning this because there are many ways to have socialized healthcare--I lived in the UK too and didn't like the healthcare system there, but France's system is completely different. Anyway:

There's one insurance company, owned by the taxpayers/the state, that provides basic insurance to everyone and negotiates rates for everything. (Basically their message is, "Hey, doctors, drug companies, etc.! We have 60 million customers! If you want our customers, here's how much you can charge..."). The doctors, meanwhile, are independent professionals, not (as in the UK) state employees. Because there's one insurance company for everyone, the paperwork is next to nothing--even before they introduced healthcare debit cards, it was just a one-page form that the doctor spent 30 seconds writing the diagnosis/treatment on and signing, you spent 30 seconds writing your name/address/etc on and mailing it, and you soon got a check in the mail reimbursing you for 65% of the cost of seeing the doctor. Ditto pharmaceuticals--a one-page form. Now they use cards, so your doctor swipes a card and gets paid automatically.

The lack of PAPERWORK means doctors don't need an army of SECRETARIES/BILLING PEOPLE to get paid... which means doctors don't need to charge nearly as much, because they don't have to hire those employees or pay rent for the space they occupy.

You get reimbursed at a higher rate if you pick one doctor and stick with them as your main family doctor, but you have the right to see any doctor you want. You can go straight to a specialist if you have a specialist-type problem; no need for a referral. Also, I noticed that doctors take turns being "the dude whose house you go to in an emergency"--they post a sign in a window of their house so you know a doctor lives there, and in higher-density areas where there are likely to be lots of emergencies doctors will sometimes trade off so this doctor posts the sign on Mondays and Wednesdays, that doctor posts it on Tuesdays and Thursdays, etc. Does your kid need stitches? If it's minor you don't go to the ER, you just go to the local doctor's house and he or she takes care of it for you, and bills the One Big Insurance Company mentioned previously. It's so SENSIBLE!

There are also insurance companies that offer secondary policies that you can buy if you want to, which add bells and whistles to your coverage. For instance, if a doctor's visit is normally reimbursed at 65%, your secondary insurance might fill the gap so you're actually reimbursed at 80% in total; the secondary insurance also covers some services not covered under the normal insurance. For instance, add $50 or $100/mo to your family health insurance costs and in addition to various other bells and whistles, you might now have coverage to have A HELPER COME TO YOUR HOUSE to get the kids ready for school (!!!) when both parents are sick, or one parent is sick and the other one's not there, or the parent is a single parent and is sick, or mom is recovering from childbirth and dad has to be at work early this week.

Oh, and did I mention that if you're infertile, as long as the woman is under 43 you get three free attempts at IVF? That's with the basic insurance that everyone has, not the secondary insurance.

Sigh. That's what happens when you have a government that's actually FOR THE PEOPLE, not for big business.

Oh, and last but not least, college tuition is around $300/year.

Not sure what happened to you in the UK, but I've always had time for the NHS. Certainly not perfect, and no doubt not as good as the French system (which is pretty much the best in the world, I think).

In the UK you get free IVF too, I believe.

Compared to Canada, in the UK, dentistry is heavily subsidised (there is a cap on 'a set of work' at 40 pounds or something). I haven't been to the dentist here yet (Canada), as I know it'll be $hundreds.. eek.

Actually, I say 'Canada' but Canada isn't Canada, is it. It's Ontario where I am, and everywhere else is different.

Ontario: You pay through the nose for car insurance, tax isn't too bad, healthcare is good, you want to be a tenant and NOT a landlord, petrol is cheap, HST (VAT) is 13%

UK: Last time I was there, fully comprehensive car insurance was about $450 for a year, tax isn't too bad, healthcare is good, no problem being a tenant or landlord, petrol is $2 a litre, VAT is 20%

Now the funny things:

Cheese is expensive in Canada, as is chocolate, but bananas are cheap. Bread is expensive. Coffee shop coffee seems cheap.

Cars are large and automatic, there are very few diesels. Computers are cheap.

I dunno. The more places I live, the more I realise that everywhere is different.

I was in Paris for a couple of weeks - the nasty part of Paris (Stains, to be precise - working at the Paris Airshow). Nasty nasty nasty. But, not too far away, beautiful churches, parks...

Oh, and public urinals? In the street. In plain view. Out in the open. Same in the Netherlands.

UK? You can't go 2 minutes without passing a pub. Canada? They don't seem to have actual pubs. You still get a 'server' which is a word I hate. Oh, and beer is expensive in Ontario! Because it's state controlled! Weird! But it's much cheaper and available in supermarkets in Quebec.

Camping in Ontario is more tightly packed than a high-rise building. To be honest, I didn't do much camping in the UK.

Australia seemed very like Canada to me actually. In many ways. Obviously not the kangaroos, but in other ways. No not the temperature either.

Canadians... actually my wife described it well (she's Canadian), are passively-aggressively polite. That is really stereotyping, so no I don't mean everyone, but the 'public face' is like that. Whereas in the UK it's... bored. Grumpy/miserable. Heh. HAVE A GREAT DAY!!! If you don't I'll chop your legs off. BYE!

[wepner]

From what I've seen, most homeschooling (and no few charter schools) is motivated by a desire to prevent the kids from encountering ideas that conflict with the parents' religion.

I'll call your anecdote and raise you an anecdote! From what I've seen, that happens literally none of the time.

Or you could, you know, post some contrary evidence. Except for the fact that data seems to 100% support James' post.

From 2003 to 2007, the percentage
of students whose parents reported homeschooling to
provide religious or moral instruction increased from
72 percent to 83 percent.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf

83% definitely seems like most to me...

[Jamesqf]

83% definitely seems like most to me...

Me too.  Though I'm more than a little surprised that it's only 83%.  Do you suppose it's possible that not everyone in the study admitted that was their real reason?

[englyn]

I wondered what the reasons for homeschooling are in Australia, since I was homeschooled here.

The Tasmanian Home Education Advisory Council recently asked its 600 registered parents why they decided to home school in the first place. Seventeen per cent said the main reason was religion, nearly half listed philosophical reasons, while 27 per cent were not happy with the local school and 7 per cent had children with special needs.

Education Queensland did a similar voluntary survey in 2002 and found 20 per cent of parents listed religion as the main reason for home schooling and 21 per cent said it was because they were not happy with the local school.

I was homeschooled mostly because at school entry age I was well ahead of school entry learning level.

[Chris]

From 2003 to 2007, the percentage of students whose parents reported homeschooling to provide religious or moral instruction increased from 72 percent to 83 percent.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf

83% definitely seems like most to me...

To be fair, the survey respondents were not restricted to one reason as a motivation. 88% said they were motivated by a concern about safety, drugs, and peer pressure. "Dissatisfaction with schools" and "religious/moral instruction" both also scored more than 2/3. When asked for the primary motivation, "religious/moral instruction" was the motivation for the plurality of respondents, at 37%.

In context, with about 80% of Americans having some kind of religious affiliation, I would expect about that percentage of homeschoolers to list religion as one of their motivations.

[wepner]

That is a fair point, but the 36 percent was the most popular reason, and the only other reasons that got more than 10% were concerns about the school environment and dissatisfaction with the academic instruction. Those could both be code for problems with secular/liberal culture.

Also just because 80% of Americans are religious doesn't mean that it's natural that it's a factor in every decision they make. I don't think 80% of people that drive pickup trucks do so for religious reasons for example. .

[SnackDog]

A friend of mine pulled her kids out of school during the drug and alcohol sessions because she was afraid they would get brainwashed!

[killingxspree]

I wondered what the reasons for homeschooling are in Australia, since I was homeschooled here.

The Tasmanian Home Education Advisory Council recently asked its 600 registered parents why they decided to home school in the first place. Seventeen per cent said the main reason was religion, nearly half listed philosophical reasons, while 27 per cent were not happy with the local school and 7 per cent had children with special needs.

Education Queensland did a similar voluntary survey in 2002 and found 20 per cent of parents listed religion as the main reason for home schooling and 21 per cent said it was because they were not happy with the local school.

I was homeschooled mostly because at school entry age I was well ahead of school entry learning level.

My gut feeling would be living in rural and isolated regions and also maybe travelling?