Author Topic: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves  (Read 68986 times)

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1200 on: October 02, 2024, 07:51:46 AM »
Just think how good it will feel when he is completely out of politics and has left the room. And the adults can talk.

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1201 on: October 02, 2024, 07:54:58 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1202 on: October 02, 2024, 08:13:51 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1203 on: October 02, 2024, 08:17:03 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

I mean, obviously!

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1204 on: October 02, 2024, 08:30:44 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

sixwings

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1205 on: October 02, 2024, 08:55:11 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

What about using the "fur babies" of people in springfield instead? Will that work?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1206 on: October 02, 2024, 09:07:27 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

sixwings

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1207 on: October 02, 2024, 09:11:55 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 09:15:04 AM by sixwings »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1208 on: October 02, 2024, 09:22:39 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

Vance recent said women should stay in physically abusive marriages.  Not all that moderate.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1209 on: October 02, 2024, 09:24:50 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."
Before the debate, JD Vance had terrible "favorability ratings", in that more people disliked him than liked him.  Vance used the debate to look more friendly, and in that regard it looks like he succeeded.

Had something dramatic happened at the Vice Presidential Debate, it might have mattered.  But with most people scoring it a tie (Vance won first half, Walz second half), it won't likely impact the Presidential race.  There may have been one sound bite worthy of a commercial (when Vance refuses to answer if Donald Trump lost the 2020 election).

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1210 on: October 02, 2024, 09:26:13 AM »
Just to be clear, I'm not at all thrilled by Vance being anywhere near the Presidential Oval Office (and I do think there is a much greater than non-zero chance Trump's VP could wind up as President)...  I just find him to be less unsettling than the Alex Jones level madness that Trump represents for me.  I can't listen to Trump for an extended period, then fret that I'm not able to even stay informed on what he's up to.

Great points that far right conservatives have become 'moderate' in this MAGA age.

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1211 on: October 02, 2024, 09:29:02 AM »
However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

Unfortunately I don't think that's how it'll go. Seeming reasonable is a boon to his ticket. The fact that Vance can code switch (while Trump cannot) is one of the things that makes him more dangerous, because it helps him disguise the crazier stuff.

Overall I agree that the VP debate probably doesn't matter. I just want to be sure we distinguish seeming reasonable on TV from actually working toward reasonable policies.

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1212 on: October 02, 2024, 09:32:29 AM »
I can't listen to Trump for an extended period, then fret that I'm not able to even stay informed on what he's up to.

I do hear you on this. I vastly prefer to read about what Trump's up to than to listen to him, because listening to him drives me batty.

"Just as extreme but more palatable" is not actually an improvement though.

I think we are on the same page here so I will stop repeating the point now.

Sandi_k

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1213 on: October 02, 2024, 09:37:43 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

Uh huh. Except for the teeny example where JDV said that T had participated in a peaceful transfer of power in 2021.

And when he lashed out at the moderator, saying "I thought you said you weren't going to fact check!" after starting in on Haitian immigrants in Ohio being there illegally.

There are more...but I'll leave it there.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1214 on: October 02, 2024, 10:35:40 AM »
I just want to assert that the “deifying of Harris” comment should be entirely dismissed out of hand until some sort of evidence is shown to back it up in any way.

My sense is that we will be waiting for a while.

Does having a shrine in my bathroom count?? Or are human sacrifices requires to prove my devotion to Kamala as my one true God??

I think you have to be sacrificing children in a satanic ritual and then harvesting their blood for adrenochrome to stay young forever.  Y'know.  Standard operating procedure for Democrats.

What about using the "fur babies" of people in springfield instead? Will that work?

Ewww, gross.  Don't be so awful.  Everyone knows that only those evil immigrants eat pets.  I'm going to stick with regular ole children thank you very much.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1215 on: October 02, 2024, 11:20:41 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

People are saying that Vance is going to declare Trump unable to fulfill his presidential duties should he win the election.
It wouldn't take much of a conspiracy to get this done under the provisions of the 25th Amendment, and voilà, here is President Vance.

Just a rumor of course - but Trump has increasingly been drawing fire, literally and figuratively, from his own ranks ...

sonofsven

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1216 on: October 02, 2024, 11:25:11 AM »
I enjoyed and walked away from the VP debate feeling somewhat good about American politics for once.  Trump has so dominated the Republican party voice that it was refreshing to hear a Republican that didn't just push my buttons non stop than say I had a derangement syndrome...  After banging on my head with a hammer for 8 years, amazing how good it feels when it stops, if only for one night.

The thing that really gets under my skin about Vance is the fact that he's perfectly capable of being reasonable and intelligent but has decided to throw his lot in with the nutcases to gain power. He knows better and he's going along with it anyway.

So I don't feel a lot better when he plays nice. That's still the guy who decided it would be in his own interest to join up with the man he once called "America's Hitler."

Agreed. Vance is more than capable of knowing who he's allied with. It's tempting to think he's more reasonable, but I'm not convinced.

Vance is not a moderate, his views are very extreme, he just can speak in coherent sentences in a way that is more disarming. His views are probably more extreme than Trumps. Like in general Trump doesn't care about policy at all, he doesn't care what happens with abortion, like whether it's legal or not, he just gives 0 Fs about any of that stuff. Vance is VERY anti-abortion to the point where he has publicly stated that the role of women is to have children and the role of grandmas is to help look after the grandkids.

It's interesting how "moderate" is used to describe right wing politicians who are able to speak in coherent sentences and in some cases care about upholding democracy. Like the Cheneys, Vance, Kinzinger, Amash, Flake, Bolton etc. These were NOT moderate in their political views, but they don't like Trump or speak like him so they get labelled as a moderate. The window has shifted so far to the right that war criminal Dick Fucking Cheney is a moderate now.

However, Vance seeming reasonable may make look Trump look even worse, and I'm here for the shitshow that'll cause in the Trump campaign!

People are saying that Vance is going to declare Trump unable to fulfill his presidential duties should he win the election.
It wouldn't take much of a conspiracy to get this done under the provisions of the 25th Amendment, and voilà, here is President Vance.

Just a rumor of course - but Trump has increasingly been drawing fire, literally and figuratively, from his own ranks ...
And then pull a Ford and hand him a full pardon.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1217 on: October 02, 2024, 02:11:06 PM »
I thought the VP debate was…civil. And both candidates moved their rhetoric to the center, which I always like.

2 Liberal Wins: I was actually surprised both candidates seemed to embrace increasing child care support. Even if you think it’s just smoke from the GOP, saying the words counts and indicates how much success the liberal view has had on the subject over time. Also, same theme, JD commented that Trump salvaged Obamacare, which should be counted as another liberal win. Whether you like these programs or not (I had Obamacare for 2 years and DID NOT LIKE the program.) they’ve got staying power.

Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.


bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1218 on: October 02, 2024, 02:24:24 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1219 on: October 02, 2024, 02:57:33 PM »

Liberal Wins: I was actually surprised both candidates seemed to embrace increasing child care support. Even if you think it’s just smoke from the GOP, saying the words counts and indicates how much success the liberal view has had on the subject over time. Also, same theme, JD commented that Trump salvaged Obamacare, which should be counted as another liberal win. Whether you like these programs or not (I had Obamacare for 2 years and DID NOT LIKE the program.) they’ve got staying power.


The fact that you are describing these as “liberal wins” says as much about how far to the right the GOP has trended in the last decade as it does about the policies themselves. Using tax credits (over federally funding social programs) has been a republican prerogative since the Reagan administration. After all, credits and deductions are easier to subset and/or be designed to benefit only those with earned income. The ACA was modeled in large part after Romney’s universal health care plan while governor. One of the biggest aspects of the ACA is actually Medicare expansion, which while passed under a Democratically controlled legislature in the LBJ administration still the support of the majority of Republicans, making it one of the most bipartisan bills of its size which didn’t involve war funding.


Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion.


This does not seem to be a major issue among either party right now or among voters. According to recent Gallop polls non-economic issues are more important to voters than economic ones by a roughly 2:1 margin, and among economic issues the national Debt and deficit are minor concerns, on par with income inequality. COL/inflation is roughly five times more important.

Whether it is indeed one of “the biggest issues” of this decade will only be known in retrospect.

Ron Scott

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1220 on: October 02, 2024, 04:19:59 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

True, but these are people who portend to be “leaders”,  yet they’re unimpressive. And even if we gave them the benefits of the doubt and said they lost their balls during the campaign but would fix it once elected, it’s be hard to believe as they seem to ignore it even then.

One of the problems with our 2-party system is a seeming incapacity to address important long-term issues that could make us a “more perfect union” when the public’s attention isn’t riveted on it. Our leaders aren’t even capable of recognizing this as a viable concern.

Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

PeteD01

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1221 on: October 02, 2024, 05:56:47 PM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.

There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.

True, but these are people who portend to be “leaders”,  yet they’re unimpressive. And even if we gave them the benefits of the doubt and said they lost their balls during the campaign but would fix it once elected, it’s be hard to believe as they seem to ignore it even then.

One of the problems with our 2-party system is a seeming incapacity to address important long-term issues that could make us a “more perfect union” when the public’s attention isn’t riveted on it. Our leaders aren’t even capable of recognizing this as a viable concern.

Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

So you are calling the legitimacy of political parties into question.

These are fighting words my friend.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1222 on: October 02, 2024, 08:07:36 PM »
I dunno...I think unfortunately that in the relatively small pools of undecided voters in swing states like PA and MI, there are enough who don't like Trump but believe he is better for "pocketbook issues" like inflation/domestic job growth, and JD's "reasonableness" has given them the justification to vote that ticket even in the face of all the steaming shit that comes with it.  Not feeling good about November. 

I always bristled at the "this is the most important election ever!" theme that has been hammered in every presidential campaign for the past 20+ years, because it seemed like it was losing its effectiveness with each turn.  Well, now IMHO this actually IS the most important election ever and we're on the verge of shitting the bed. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1223 on: October 03, 2024, 07:10:41 AM »
Finally, under the un-f’ing-believeable category, one of the biggest issues facing the country now—the batshit high national debt—was never a topic of discussion. CBS couldn’t even pose it as a question, so I’d give the candidates better grades than the 2 hosts.
There's no answer that would satisfy anyone because any true budget fix has to come from entitlement programs or Defense. Imagine Vance suggesting a 25% cut to Social Security or Walz suggesting a 25% cut in the DoD. And even that isn't enough.
There's also the possibility of resetting tax rates and deleting loopholes to undo 40+ years of reduced taxation. In terms of "would this work to reduce the debt" I think the answer is an obvious yes, and the CBO would agree. However, like so many other solutions we refuse to accept, the straightforward, directly effective solution is politically radioactive.

This does not seem to be a major issue among either party right now or among voters. According to recent Gallop polls non-economic issues are more important to voters than economic ones by a roughly 2:1 margin, and among economic issues the national Debt and deficit are minor concerns, on par with income inequality. COL/inflation is roughly five times more important.

Whether it is indeed one of “the biggest issues” of this decade will only be known in retrospect.
Isn't it weird how people draw NO connection between the tax cuts, tariffs, and helicopter money of a few years ago, and the inflation, jobs, and national debt a few years later? NONE of the causes of anything we are dissatisfied about today wasn't the popular thing to do in the recent past, and you, dear voter, are the one who supported the causes that led to today's effects.

Additionally weird is how poorly informed and incurious people are about economics if it is supposedly their top political concern. In a poll earlier this year, a majority of Americans said they thought the economy was in recession. The GDP report came out with 3% growth shortly thereafter, and corporate earnings knocked everyone's socks off. If you cannot distinguish between some of the fastest economic growth in decades and a recession, then I'll dare to insinuate that economic issues should not be among your top concerns. Either get informed or admit you don't actually care about economics. Saying you care and not being informed are contradictory.

Now we're just voting for slogans like Trump's "I'm gonna fix the economy" or Harris' "Not going back" and your average voter could not define the Federal Funds Rate or describe Monetarism. For fuck's sake if that's all you know please don't even wade into the subject. You're ripe for manipulation, and yes, the politicians are talking down to you.

I have to acknowledge, I have more formal education in economics than 99.5% of the population. Perhaps that makes me an elitist, or perhaps I'm just walking my own talk. But I swear most voters seem to think there's an "economy" button on the president's desk and if they just press that button diligently enough Oprah pops out and gives us all a new car, our boss gives us a raise, and the prices of gasoline and milk go down to a dollar a gallon. We just need to elect somebody who says they'll push that button. That populist mentality is exactly how you get a Nicholas Maduro, a Recep Erdogan, a Vladimir Putin, or a Boris Johnson, or through another lens tens of millions of people with no idea why their standards of living utterly collapsed within a few years.

bacchi

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1224 on: October 03, 2024, 08:32:45 AM »
Anything that criticizes the legitimacy of the 2-party system is off limits for discussion. Even our “journalists” won’t go there. It’s like incest…a last taboo.

Two states, and a few cities, have ranked choice voting. The Republican party is/was actively trying to get rid of it. At least 10 R-controlled states have banned it.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1225 on: October 03, 2024, 08:58:08 AM »
...
I have to acknowledge, I have more formal education in economics than 99.5% of the population. Perhaps that makes me an elitist, or perhaps I'm just walking my own talk. But I swear most voters seem to think there's an "economy" button on the president's desk and if they just press that button diligently enough Oprah pops out and gives us all a new car, our boss gives us a raise, and the prices of gasoline and milk go down to a dollar a gallon. We just need to elect somebody who says they'll push that button. That populist mentality is exactly how you get a Nicholas Maduro, a Recep Erdogan, a Vladimir Putin, or a Boris Johnson, or through another lens tens of millions of people with no idea why their standards of living utterly collapsed within a few years.

Even worse than an elitist in today's climate, that makes you an Expert which means your wrong.  And as soon as you try to explain any complex, nuanced subject in more than one perfect sentence, you've opened yourself to ridicule and derision that there's no way you can actually know what you're talking about.  Then you'll be drowned out in chants and populism.

Take for example the 'drill baby drill' solution and opening ANWR to be a solution for supposedly skyrocketing energy prices...  I work in oil and gas and the constraints on increasing domestic oil production are much more around inflated project costs, decreased competition among suppliers post-Covid, and a lack of young skilled labor.  We already got blasted by Trump tariffs on steel the last time he was in office (added risk and cost to the project) and Trump sounds like this nail is what he plans to hammer on twice as hard the next time around, in the name of increasing production and lowering energy prices!  And ANWR is an order of magnitude harder to design and produce for than the Gulf of Mexico, not to mention the reputational risk (yes, people still know what you mean when you say Exxon Valdez, but are more fuzzy around the Deepwater Horizon)... 

We also have so much domestic gas that much of it gets flared because it's too cheap to transport but the associated natural gas liquids are too valuable to pass up.  Don't even get me started on their plans to open up federal lands for new fracking as a 'good idea'...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1226 on: October 03, 2024, 10:18:54 AM »
When you have a friend who works in wildlife rehab, you definitely remember the Deepwater Horizon.
Or if you were a shrimp fisherman in the area.

But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1227 on: October 03, 2024, 11:30:33 AM »
But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

Let's not turn this into a 'rural' vs 'urban' hate fest.

People in urban areas often have little understanding of where the things they buy come from, and are more likely to be divorced from the environment.  Conversely, people in rural areas often have little understanding of the truly massive subsidies that allow them to live remotely for far below the true costs that would otherwise have to be levied, and are more likely to be divorced from the economic reality of their situation.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1228 on: October 03, 2024, 01:23:29 PM »
But most people have no clue about how anything is produced.  They don't realize that urban life, not rural life, is the "simple life" because they have no idea of how things work.

Let's not turn this into a 'rural' vs 'urban' hate fest.

People in urban areas often have little understanding of where the things they buy come from, and are more likely to be divorced from the environment.  Conversely, people in rural areas often have little understanding of the truly massive subsidies that allow them to live remotely for far below the true costs that would otherwise have to be levied, and are more likely to be divorced from the economic reality of their situation.

Wasn't intending to, I've lived both.  It was more just that EscapeVelocity2020 made the point that generally people don't understand the ins and outs of oil/gas, and I was expanding that to most people are divorced from how any supply chain works.  Nothing to do with subsidies.  But rural means you know where your water comes from and sewage goes to, for example, a lot more specifically than urban dwellers.  And not here, but people don't think about food supply either, food comes from the grocery store.  In rural areas you may end up with limited internet access because no one will run a cable, you have to have a tower or nothing.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1229 on: October 03, 2024, 01:56:57 PM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

sonofsven

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1230 on: October 03, 2024, 05:17:33 PM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

LennStar

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1231 on: Today at 03:36:40 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.


The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.

Bertrand Russell

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1232 on: Today at 05:30:32 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

There's good reason for this.

Most things in the world are intensely complicated and nuanced. Not understanding the depth of complexity of an issue is what allows things to ostensibly "make sense."

The less one knows about a topic, the more obvious the topic seems because the underlying complexity is opaque. When things make sense, the solutions appear obvious and "logical."

I remember being much, much younger and thinking that an O&G supply chain setup in Canada was so stupid. It seemed so obvious that the reason for the bizarre supply chain was political, and the politicians definitely leaned into this easy to understand narrative.

It was only years later talking to O&G folks that I actually understood the complexities of the refinement process, pipelines, and why it wasn't as simple as seemed to me.

Virtually everything in this world has incredibly complicated, multi-layered reasons for being the way it is, and the ripple effects of change are actually incredibly difficult to predict.

But when you don't see those underlayers, everything makes so much more sense and solutions seem so much more obvious. Hence the arrogance that comes with ignorance.

It's very attractive to feel like you can see an obvious answer and the rest of the world is just too stupid and corrupt to see or accept it.

If you can see an obvious solution to a very important issue, what would you prefer? Feeling smart or assuming that you're just too ignorant to understand why it's not that simple??

The former is much more appealing.

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.

It's hard to accept ignorance, so it's hard to accept the reality that if something seems obvious to you, it probably means you're kind of dumb on that topic, not smarter than everyone else.

And we have political machines that know that, they can the flames of ignorant outrage framing the other side as the *reason* why obvious, common sense solutions aren't being pursued. Because again, that simple explanation makes a lot of sense on the surface.

This is why social issues get more political traction than economic issues because economic issues are actually REALLY complex and the policies that address them are nowhere near simple in terms of understanding their impacts. Social issues can be distilled down into simpler, more discretely actionable concepts.

When someone feels really confident that they know better, seeking out info to challenge themselves and complicate things is both laborious and uncomfortable, especially when there's always someone out there to provide them with a tidy narrative about how they are, in fact, right, and smarter than the other guys.

Who doesn't want to feel smart??

There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

partgypsy

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1233 on: Today at 06:10:12 AM »
True. I remember talking to one of my friends in HS who was truly brilliant, and compliment me. And I confessed, people think i'm smart but I don't feel smart. In fact the more I learn the stupidter I feel. And he said, actually that feeling is a sign of smartness partgypsy. And then went off about a field of math that concerned itself with things that could be known, and not known as an analogy. Knowing what you know is important. But also understanding what you don't know, and can never know are AS important activities. Now I could then make a point that while intellectually and by analogy men may understand what it's like to say, be forced to bear an unwanted pregnancy to term there are some ways they will never know or understand because they will never be put in that situation. It's OK to have humility. And to say you don't know. And to maybe sit down and listen.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:20:24 AM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1234 on: Today at 07:45:19 AM »

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.



There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

Veering slightly OT, but I’m in STEM, and one topic that seems to come up now and again from younger students is whether it’s better to be a scientist now, when (the assumption is) so many major discoveries have already been made, or during the so-called scientific enlightenment when Newton and Locke and Galileo etc were making discoveries that underpin our current understanding and institutions and seem almost “obvious” now (eg Newtons laws of motion are covered in most HS sience curriculum.).
The reality is - there’s far more left to be discovered now than has been discovered, and an amazing amount of our everyday we simply don’t understand the underlying mechanisms. As one example, for most vitamins and micronutrients we have absolutely no idea how they actually work. We know deficiencies cause certain ailments and that have a vague idea of the organs impacted, but where those modules, which can be measured in picograms, actually interact within cells or how they are regulated is an utter mystery. Tylenol isn’t much different.

The second question I’ve gotten a lot is “what is it like to be a PhD /Post-doc /adjunct professor that’s evidently an “expert” in my very small slice of a very big field. One response is: “you have to bdd ed comfortable with frequently being the dumbest person in the room”. People who can’t accept how much they don’t know about the subject they are a “leading expert” on simply fall victim to a wide array of biased, and they can’t see or understand their mistakes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1235 on: Today at 07:52:27 AM »

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.



There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

Veering slightly OT, but I’m in STEM, and one topic that seems to come up now and again from younger students is whether it’s better to be a scientist now, when (the assumption is) so many major discoveries have already been made, or during the so-called scientific enlightenment when Newton and Locke and Galileo etc were making discoveries that underpin our current understanding and institutions and seem almost “obvious” now (eg Newtons laws of motion are covered in most HS sience curriculum.).
The reality is - there’s far more left to be discovered now than has been discovered, and an amazing amount of our everyday we simply don’t understand the underlying mechanisms. As one example, for most vitamins and micronutrients we have absolutely no idea how they actually work. We know deficiencies cause certain ailments and that have a vague idea of the organs impacted, but where those modules, which can be measured in picograms, actually interact within cells or how they are regulated is an utter mystery. Tylenol isn’t much different.

The second question I’ve gotten a lot is “what is it like to be a PhD /Post-doc /adjunct professor that’s evidently an “expert” in my very small slice of a very big field. One response is: “you have to bdd ed comfortable with frequently being the dumbest person in the room”. People who can’t accept how much they don’t know about the subject they are a “leading expert” on simply fall victim to a wide array of biased, and they can’t see or understand their mistakes.

I think it's more the observation that the nature of discovery has changed pretty significantly.  There seems to be far less of the driven person puttering around in his/her garage and discovering X-rays, insulin, or nylon.  Most of the modern discoveries seem to be larger groups and teams working on subtle problems to extend relatively obscure fields.  I dunno, maybe I'm way off base but that seems to be true of the majority of the research I was seeing in univerity.

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1236 on: Today at 08:37:13 AM »
Here's a fun but sympathetic comparison of undecided voters to the hassled, overscheduled, and under-rested college students who don't do the reading for freshman English.

https://slate.com/life/2024/10/undecided-voters-2024-election-trump-harris.html

The analogy makes me think about how the radical simplification of life that is Mustachianism could be the answer if enough people adopted it, and how the radical complication of life that is consumerism leaves us in a weakened state, unable to be informed enough to be confident in our opinions. That's my lens of course.

Unfortunately, the uninformed always seem to be the most confident in their opinions.

There's good reason for this.

Most things in the world are intensely complicated and nuanced. Not understanding the depth of complexity of an issue is what allows things to ostensibly "make sense."

The less one knows about a topic, the more obvious the topic seems because the underlying complexity is opaque. When things make sense, the solutions appear obvious and "logical."

I remember being much, much younger and thinking that an O&G supply chain setup in Canada was so stupid. It seemed so obvious that the reason for the bizarre supply chain was political, and the politicians definitely leaned into this easy to understand narrative.

It was only years later talking to O&G folks that I actually understood the complexities of the refinement process, pipelines, and why it wasn't as simple as seemed to me.

Virtually everything in this world has incredibly complicated, multi-layered reasons for being the way it is, and the ripple effects of change are actually incredibly difficult to predict.

But when you don't see those underlayers, everything makes so much more sense and solutions seem so much more obvious. Hence the arrogance that comes with ignorance.

It's very attractive to feel like you can see an obvious answer and the rest of the world is just too stupid and corrupt to see or accept it.

If you can see an obvious solution to a very important issue, what would you prefer? Feeling smart or assuming that you're just too ignorant to understand why it's not that simple??

The former is much more appealing.

The process of learning is an extremely humbling experience, it's just layer after layer of seeing how ignorant you used to be, and with a near infinite amount of nuance in this world, it also means slowly accepting that you will never have enough context to not be ignorant.

It's hard to accept ignorance, so it's hard to accept the reality that if something seems obvious to you, it probably means you're kind of dumb on that topic, not smarter than everyone else.

And we have political machines that know that, they can the flames of ignorant outrage framing the other side as the *reason* why obvious, common sense solutions aren't being pursued. Because again, that simple explanation makes a lot of sense on the surface.

This is why social issues get more political traction than economic issues because economic issues are actually REALLY complex and the policies that address them are nowhere near simple in terms of understanding their impacts. Social issues can be distilled down into simpler, more discretely actionable concepts.

When someone feels really confident that they know better, seeking out info to challenge themselves and complicate things is both laborious and uncomfortable, especially when there's always someone out there to provide them with a tidy narrative about how they are, in fact, right, and smarter than the other guys.

Who doesn't want to feel smart??

There's nothing like absorbing new information to make you feel stupid. Lol.

There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.

nereo

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1237 on: Today at 08:37:29 AM »

I think it's more the observation that the nature of discovery has changed pretty significantly.  There seems to be far less of the driven person puttering around in his/her garage and discovering X-rays, insulin, or nylon.  Most of the modern discoveries seem to be larger groups and teams working on subtle problems to extend relatively obscure fields.  I dunno, maybe I'm way off base but that seems to be true of the majority of the research I was seeing in univerity.

Because your frame of reference was university. . Yes, there a ton of stuff done by larger collaborative teams of labs working within the R1 system. But there’s still significant progress (and in some instances MORE) being made by individuals and industry and the like, particularly with projects that require very long timeframes (several years to several decades).
A known weakness of the university system is the duration of grant funded projects, which are typically 18-36 months, with a few months on both ends eaten up by recruiting students/techs and publishing results. There are a few pathways for 5 and even 10 year projects through agencies like NSERC, NSF and NIH, but those are exceptions and a minimum of projects and funding.

Individuals and private companies don’t have such constraints, and can work on longer term projects ( particularly with an obvious economic benefit). In fields like botany and genetics a lot of the discoveries have occurred only after systematic strain selection, for example

Greystache

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1238 on: Today at 08:48:54 AM »
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

H. L. Mencken

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1239 on: Today at 09:02:04 AM »


There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.

Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1240 on: Today at 01:05:01 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

GuitarStv

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1241 on: Today at 01:08:24 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

We don't have democracy though.  Not direct democracy.  The whole idea behind our systems of government are to allow elites with more specialized knowledge to make decisions over what's going to be best for us.  We just keep the democracy part to overthrow the elites if they get really out of hand.  Or at least that's teh general idea . . . but since most of us aren't able to tell if things are really out of hand we're where we're at right now.

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1242 on: Today at 02:36:16 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

The jump from "It's uncomfortable/difficult to make informed decisions" to "People will still put in that effort when things get tough" is the flaw in your thinking here, imo.

People rely on the heuristics all the time, but going "Wait, this is a tough situation that may require more than just heuristics" would require them to recognize that they were relying on heuristics in the first place. Which most people don't acknowledge.

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1243 on: Today at 04:39:10 PM »
There is so much information to process and the issues are so complex that maybe less than 1% of the population can even begin to make logical and informed choices. And even those people are going to disagree with each other.
Yeah, but my point was that accepting that is very uncomfortable compared to believing that everything makes sense and everyone else is just dumber/corrupt/crazy/all of the above.

When things make a lot of "logical" sense, why would people assume that nothing they "know" is actually real, and just a very simplified abstraction of reality. That's terrifying!
If we're incapable of comprehending complex topics and make informed judgments, then that's an argument against democracy. We would need some elites to make better decisions on our behalf, and the system would have to require that we not be able to overthrow these elites when their decisions conflicted with our feelings about truth.

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

The jump from "It's uncomfortable/difficult to make informed decisions" to "People will still put in that effort when things get tough" is the flaw in your thinking here, imo.

People rely on the heuristics all the time, but going "Wait, this is a tough situation that may require more than just heuristics" would require them to recognize that they were relying on heuristics in the first place. Which most people don't acknowledge.

Am I reading wrong or are you reading wrong, because I thought he said exactly what you are saying...???

I'm dyslexic though, so I can get lost in multiple quotes...

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1244 on: Today at 06:17:33 PM »
This is the specific bit I am referring to:

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

My understanding of his statement = if making informed decisions is merely uncomfortable/hard, then we would expect people to still resort to doing it when sufficiently motivated. For example, people would start making better-informed decisions during crises. This does not seem to match reality, therefore (implied) the premise must be wrong.

My response = you have made a logical error in assuming the people REALIZE they are making simplistic decisions and can choose an alternative when motivated.

If I've misunderstood your point, @ChpBstrd, please do feel free to correct me.

Metalcat

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1245 on: Today at 07:22:45 PM »
This is the specific bit I am referring to:

If it's very uncomfortable to put in the work required to make informed judgments, then maybe that's an argument that people will only make high-quality choices when they are more motivated to do so. E.g. people would start to care about economics during a recession, or agriculture during a famine. The evidence I see contradicts this hypothesis. If anything, we rely more on heuristics and simplistic answers like blaming each other when the going gets tough.

My understanding of his statement = if making informed decisions is merely uncomfortable/hard, then we would expect people to still resort to doing it when sufficiently motivated. For example, people would start making better-informed decisions during crises. This does not seem to match reality, therefore (implied) the premise must be wrong.

My response = you have made a logical error in assuming the people REALIZE they are making simplistic decisions and can choose an alternative when motivated.

If I've misunderstood your point, @ChpBstrd, please do feel free to correct me.

He's not saying that's his hypothesis though, he's saying that you might think that people would behave that way but all of the evidence says they don't.

From what I've read, having read it many times now to see if I'm losing my mind, he actually said literally exactly what you said in response to him.

Unless I have lost my mind. Please someone else weigh in because I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Tasse

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Re: Well I hope the Dems are proud of themselves
« Reply #1246 on: Today at 07:31:29 PM »
I thought he said "A might suggest B, but B is false," implying A must be false. And I was like "A doesn't necessarily suggest B, though."

It seems like you thought he said "A might suggest B, but B is false," without implying anything about A.

I do see how you could reach the second interpretation now. Perhaps I misunderstood what part of his premise he was disproving.

I thought he was saying that discomfort with ambiguity doesn't explain why people are bad at making informed decisions.