Author Topic: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity  (Read 55190 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

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We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« on: April 03, 2016, 10:20:04 PM »
Maybe it's a sad realization in a way, or maybe a youthful grasp at some monolith that will never be held.  I read this primer on Cryonics (http://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html) and began to realize the choice we must make as the Human race.  Ultimately, we are deciding between being human, or being something else.  And the sooner we realize that we are headed toward a choice, the better prepared we will hopefully be.

Personally, I choose to stay behind.  I want to live life now and be with God when my time on this Earth is over.  I love my children and I believe that the only way I can be with them and their children, and their children's children, is through God.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2016, 04:48:31 AM »
... and I realize that the God stuff is probably going to scare people off.  I'm not a religious person, but the thought of being away from my family does that to me.  Mainly, it is the idea that people would be willing to consider Cryonics.  I can't imagine a worse fate, to come back to life and live forever in an entirely foreign world (in the future) where you don't 'belong'.  And the idea that this is a choice people are making, having their insides swapped out with medically approved brine and put in suspended animation.  You have to believe that there is a reason for you here, a reason for what is happening now.  I'm not sure what waiting for tomorrow helps anybody.

And it does feel better to get that out after reading about Cryonics, it really bothered me that anyone, especially smart people would consider that to provide hope.  Sorry for the strong reaction, it's been that kind of a weekend.

forummm

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2016, 06:17:16 AM »
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We Have to Start to Think About Eternity

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Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2016, 06:20:31 AM »
Never heard of Cryonics before so I learned something new today, thanks! 

I do think that it is a foolish idea to voluntarily put yourself in suspended animation.  For what purpose?  If a person does not figure out the meaning of life the first time around, what makes them think that more time will help?  I don't know what the future holds but I'm guessing that it will still be the same as in the time of Solomon:
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The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.  (Ecclesiastes 1:8-9)

I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.  (Eccl 1:14)

Hope your week only gets better from here on out!

forummm

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2016, 06:27:44 AM »
I couldn't resist the fun. But it's an interesting topic. I think what it means to be human has always been changing and will continue to do so. I think that's exciting. I'm glad we have computers now and can interact around the world. And I think it's leading us to less and less violence (the data shows this, no matter what the evening news would like for you to believe).

Technology is already a part of who we are. Whether the Singularity or something else like that occurs, we're heading in that direction more every year. I'm OK with that.

If there is a God, why would that be a problem? What does it matter what we surround our bodies with, or integrate them with? Our brains are what we believe distinguishes us from other species and makes us "human"--homo sapiens. If you approach it from a spiritual perspective, enhancing our ability to continue on for a longer time doesn't change our mandate to live for that higher purpose. And part of that sentience includes the ability for you to decide not to continue on forever if that is your choice (and if the choice to continue on forever is even made available).

I'm not worried about it. I'm actually more worried that progress will slow down if people stop dying. People underestimate how valuable it is that we can rid society of people through the natural demise of the elderly. It's hard to change people's minds, so we are stuck with the way they think until they are gone. I'm looking forward to the death of the harder-edged racists and sexists, etc who were brought up in a different time where those things were the norm. We're making lots of progress on those issues as older people die off. Similarly with our insane policy on drugs, Cuba, you name it. Without getting to refresh society like this, we may have more trouble than we realize.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2016, 07:29:15 AM »
I think what it means to be human has always been changing and will continue to do so.

This brings up an interesting question.  If the meaning of being a human is always changing then how can you say that we are making any progress at all?  The next generation might decide to define progress differently than you do and they will have to start over (i.e. wait for your generation to die off before their idea of progress can be achieved.  Ad nauseam.). 

This can be illustrated by a conversation in Alice in Wonderland:
“Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?”
 “That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,” said the Cat.
“I don’t much care where–” said Alice.
“Then it doesn’t matter which way you go,” said the Cat.
“–so long as I get SOMEWHERE,” Alice added as an explanation.
“Oh, you’re sure to do that,” said the Cat, “if you only walk long enough.”

I believe that there must be an unchanging Truth for truth to have any meaning at all.  There must be a true meaning of what it is to be human.  Otherwise, we are all running aimlessly or fighting like a boxer beating the air.  (1 Cor 9)

golden1

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2016, 07:51:21 AM »
There are definitely a lot of interesting philosophical questions surrounding the concept of expanded lifespans or immortality for humans.

1) Is it responsible to be pursuing immortality before we have a handle on population control?
2) Are we capable of functioning in a society with people who are immortal or have greatly expanded lifespans?
3) If we can freeze someone at the moment of death, what does that mean for our concepts of life and death?
4) Do we really want to live forever if we can't be with the ones we love, and have to watch them get ill and die?  We are a social species after all. 

Taking cryogenics out of it, what I see currently being possible is the very wealthy using their resources to prolong life.  Wealthy people already live longer than poor people.  Better technology might move that gap to 10 years or 20 in the next few decades.  Some people are pursuing the idea of immortality as an engineering problem that they can solve with enough time and innovation.  Kurtzweil comes to mind.  I don't know if society is going to be able to function with this type of inequality in lifespan.  This could lead to uprisings/wars etc...

As far as religion goes, I think most of the discomfort with the idea of the fact that people are attempting to make a heaven on earth, so to speak.  In heaven, you go to a place where you live forever in no pain surrounded by your loved ones, which is the goal of people who want to prolong life.  Well, what about the loved ones who are already gone?  How do you process that?  I don't know that most humans, as they currently are, are capable of living in that type of reality. 

I feel like most of this pursuit of eternal life comes from a deep discomfort and fear of death that people experience and can't reconcile.  As humans we are uniquely conscious of our own mortality.  We use religion as a tool to be able to live with that fear on a daily basis, but as more people eschew religion, they are looking for other ways to deal with that fear. 

forummm

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2016, 07:55:50 AM »
I think what it means to be human has always been changing and will continue to do so.

This brings up an interesting question.  If the meaning of being a human is always changing then how can you say that we are making any progress at all? 

What makes us human is the ability to decide for ourselves what progress is. In the case of the examples I provided, the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice (MLK). Who knows what the future holds. I can only see what's in the past and where some current trends are.

I don't think there is any universal "Truth". And if there is, which one is it? There are billions of people with perhaps billions of different ideas about what that "Truth" might be. Who's right? Well, of course you are, and the people you listen to. And all those other people who think differently are some degree of wrong. And they think the same thing about you.

Let's say you're a Christian. All you have to rely on are accounts of what some people claimed happened a long time ago, written by people who weren't there during the claimed events. And you have dozens of different denominations who see those accounts differently. And who mostly think the Jews are wrong (even though they have some of the same holy books), the Muslims are wrong (even though the Bible is one of the holy books of Islam), the Mormons are wrong (even though they believe in Jesus), etc.

If you believe in some deity and some Truth, you're doing it on faith for whatever reasons. Hence the diversity in opinion on what that might consist of.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2016, 08:27:51 AM »
I don't think there is any universal "Truth". And if there is, which one is it? There are billions of people with perhaps billions of different ideas about what that "Truth" might be. Who's right? Well, of course you are, and the people you listen to. And all those other people who think differently are some degree of wrong. And they think the same thing about you.

If you believe in some deity and some Truth, you're doing it on faith for whatever reasons. Hence the diversity in opinion on what that might consist of.

Sometimes it is helpful to discuss questions without having to say who is right.  I'm still working on this ability...

Frequently, I have a tendency to overthink things.  My brain has always sought a black and white answer to questions that are grey.  However, I live in a world where some answers will always leave room for doubt.  I encounter questions for which there seems to be no answer at all.  I always used to dislike poetry because it was not as straightforward as prose.  Now, I am beginning to read poetry (and I enjoy it) because it leaves room for the unknowable.

I think that everyone has to have faith in something; even if it is just faith in their own ability to think and reason.




forummm

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2016, 08:36:09 AM »
I encounter questions for which there seems to be no answer at all. 

This is the essence of humanity.

I think that everyone has to have faith in something; even if it is just faith in their own ability to think and reason.

I think that is valuable too. It's what we consider to be the fundamental difference between us and animals, rocks, and trees.

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2016, 08:59:53 AM »
Posting mostly to follow, but this did spark a thought in me.

Heard a story on NPR today about Princeton Students wanting to remove Woodrow Wilson's name because of segregationist policies. (Here's an article on it for those interested: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/23/princeton-woodrow-wilson-racism-students-remove-name) I am sure that there some people who were so hard-lined racist or bigoted that they deserve to be removed from history and our memory, but I fear what it's doing to our culture to continue to reject everything in our history as pure evil and "We are the generation of full enlightenment."

Part of humanity has to be on recognizing that we are all products of our time, that we have done great things making the advancements in ethics and morality beyond our ancestors, and that there will be matters that future generations will have the energy to fight for when I am old and cranky. Part of being American is accepting that we don't have a clean past but we've gotten better, part of being German is accepting the history of those mistakes made by Nazi Germany, part of being Jewish is accepting whatever mistakes or barbarisms happened in the Torah.

Whether a particular ruler or leader was evil or good is not up for a particular generation to decide, but for each generation to read about and learn that part of being human does not mean all decisions made by the majority are the right ones, and those decisions whether good or evil, have led to world that we live in today.

Kris

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2016, 10:03:15 AM »
Posting mostly to follow, but this did spark a thought in me.

Heard a story on NPR today about Princeton Students wanting to remove Woodrow Wilson's name because of segregationist policies. (Here's an article on it for those interested: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/23/princeton-woodrow-wilson-racism-students-remove-name) I am sure that there some people who were so hard-lined racist or bigoted that they deserve to be removed from history and our memory, but I fear what it's doing to our culture to continue to reject everything in our history as pure evil and "We are the generation of full enlightenment."

Part of humanity has to be on recognizing that we are all products of our time, that we have done great things making the advancements in ethics and morality beyond our ancestors, and that there will be matters that future generations will have the energy to fight for when I am old and cranky. Part of being American is accepting that we don't have a clean past but we've gotten better, part of being German is accepting the history of those mistakes made by Nazi Germany, part of being Jewish is accepting whatever mistakes or barbarisms happened in the Torah.

Whether a particular ruler or leader was evil or good is not up for a particular generation to decide, but for each generation to read about and learn that part of being human does not mean all decisions made by the majority are the right ones, and those decisions whether good or evil, have led to world that we live in today.

I agree with this.

Where I live, there is current activism around the attempt to rename a popular lake, because the person the lake is named after was a proponent of slavery.  The idea would be to give it its Native American name back.

It's not at all that I have a problem with the original name, per se, being given back to it. But to me, keeping the name as it is now provides the opportunity to talk about the history, flaws and all, instead of washing it away.

I feel the same way about attempts to remove the "n word" from Mark Twain's novels. 

Drifterrider

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2016, 10:56:21 AM »
Why do we have to start thinking about it now?  We have an eternity to do that.

(Ya know someone was gonna say it).

mrpercentage

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2016, 09:33:35 PM »

Let's say you're a Christian. All you have to rely on are accounts of what some people claimed happened a long time ago, written by people who weren't there during the claimed events.

Or through "signs" and personal revelations. These are the sort of things that sound totally ridiculous to anyone who is not in the direct experience. Sometimes a series of events leave no doubt but to convey that to someone else sounds like madness. Most will tell you its just a long series of coincidences. Maybe, maybe not

consider this scene as the Devil questions Joan of Arc https://youtu.be/9oSJdSL8YOE

Quote
I don't think there is any universal "Truth". And if there is, which one is it? There are billions of people with perhaps billions of different ideas about what that "Truth" might be. Who's right? Well, of course you are, and the people you listen to. And all those other people who think differently are some degree of wrong. And they think the same thing about you.

If you believe in some deity and some Truth, you're doing it on faith for whatever reasons. Hence the diversity in opinion on what that might consist of.

Consider reading Rashomon. I think you would like it. It is all about the eye of the beholder. A masterpeice
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=rashomon&rh=n%3A133140011%2Ck%3Arashomon





RosieTR

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 10:14:36 PM »
All I can think of per this thread is the Star Trek Next Gen episode where the ship came across a people on a cryogenic pod and thawed them. It was super jarring for the people who woke up-no money, no TV, weird aliens, etc. Made me consider just how weird it would be to wake up with a gap of 5, 10, 20, 50 years or more. Imagine someone arriving from 1966 without having lived through the intervening years. I would think there would be a lot of suicides and other unpleasantness, especially if it was past the time when friends and family who had not chosen cryo were dead.

This is relevant regardless of religion.

Cyaphas

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2016, 11:06:12 PM »
If we do figure out immortality or a lesser version of, I don't see it mattering as long as we continue to leave all of our eggs in one basket at the bottom of this gravity well.

If by some miracle we do get out of this gravity well and become space-faring, than immortality would be quite a blessing. There are life times of adventures to be found here on earth. I can only dream of how many there are among the stars.

gooki

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2016, 01:56:43 AM »
Meh, I'm happy to live on in the memories of my friends and family.

So long as it's a choice I don't care. But I'll be damned if it gets forced upon me.

mrpercentage

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2016, 04:08:16 AM »
Meh, I'm happy to live on in the memories of my friends and family.

So long as it's a choice I don't care. But I'll be damned if it gets forced upon me.

I hear you there.

It is possible. We love to tell each other how to live, and that no one is allowed to die on their terms. I mean, the most humane thing is to let nature take its course. Nevermind what the veterinarians do to terminal animals-- we humans must die with our chest cracked open and a surgeon pumping our heart by hand because the machines have failed us damn it. I truly believe there a few things about our society that is just batshit crazy. Like sending any death row inmate to the hospital for anything while we wait to execute them. That makes sense.

Can you imagine life in prison with immortality in the mix, and with everyone having a right to healthcare? Uh, no thank you. Where is the nearest rope?

marty998

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2016, 04:34:45 AM »
Meh, I'm happy to live on in the memories of my friends and family.

So long as it's a choice I don't care. But I'll be damned if it gets forced upon me.

I hear you there.

It is possible. We love to tell each other how to live, and that no one is allowed to die on their terms. I mean, the most humane thing is to let nature take its course. Nevermind what the veterinarians do to terminal animals-- we humans must die with our chest cracked open and a surgeon pumping our heart by hand because the machines have failed us damn it. I truly believe there a few things about our society that is just batshit crazy. Like sending any death row inmate to the hospital for anything while we wait to execute them. That makes sense.

Can you imagine life in prison with immortality in the mix, and with everyone having a right to healthcare? Uh, no thank you. Where is the nearest rope?

Yes....because logic dictates you have to be healthy to die.


EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2016, 10:43:34 PM »
Really awesome responses, I have appreciated reading all of them as they were posted.  Last weekend was overwhelming and I finally broke toward the one thing that gave my logical mind an answer.  Faith.  I hated to admit that, but wanted to see what would happen when I posted.  In my prior world, instead of Faith, I would love to tell folks that I hit adversity running, overpowered it, and came out even stronger with logic and ideas toward how life will be better in the future.  But that wasn't the case.  And I'm encouraged to see people respond positively to a little crazy as opposed to encouraging curated, posting after the feel.

Last weekend, I saw one larger than life man dying, and how deeply his wife and the community cared for him.  In many ways, it transcends what I thought was possible.  There was a movement to keep him alive, although his health would always be failing; the resources were at hand indefinitely.  And so I came to the realization that the only way to live a good life is to come to know death.  There is no bigger thing asked of us. 

Along these lines, as we move toward a future allowing longevity, the trade-off must be between something like this and the China 'one child policy'.

TheBuddha

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2016, 01:55:08 PM »
I wouldn't do cryonics. Eternal life might not be so great once you're there.

I always wondered about the passage in Revelation that says, "in those days men will seek death but not find it." It never made sense. What would prevent you from committing suicide? Unless of course we've all uploaded our minds into a virtual reality, ruled by some godlike AI, and what was supposed to have been a Utopia degenerates into some kind of hellish existence that we're unable to escape.


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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2016, 01:02:25 AM »
Wow. The responses here are really making me consider it even more strongly.

I definitely am okay with, perhaps even looking forward to, dying (and I say this as a person who thinks there is nothing after death).  But the amount of dragon worship here is incredible.

The ethical implications I'm still working on.  I'm not worried about technological or other worries surrounding it.

I've known about, and been meh on cryonics (and thought it not for myself, personally).  The WBW article didn't address my main concerns with it, but it did get a few minor and tangential ones.  But I am considering it more, if I can work out that it leads to better.  I think most of the arguments against it not are superficial, at this point.  Since it's such a fringe thing, serious philosophical arguments for, and against, are lacking.
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jacksonvasey

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2016, 08:44:15 AM »
Here's the cliff notes of the excellent Wait But Why article linked above:
  • Death has an ever-changing definition. 100 years ago if you saw someone fall, and their heart wasn't beating, they were dead. Now, you know you have like 5 minutes to get the heart started again before death. It's not unreasonable to think that real death may not occur for hours or days after the heart stops (especially if you consider 'death' to be the point where it's impossible to revive your mind.  The basic point is, death is relative to our medical understanding of death, it's not absolute (in that we can't prove that our current medical understanding of death isn't limited)
  • The field of cryonics, and the US-based companies providing those services, don't seem to be shady, and genuinely seem to be working toward the idea of preserving people and eventually reviving them.
  • As medicine improves, it becomes more and more feasible to revive a person, especially as vitrification techniques improve (note it's not freezing, the water in your body becomes an amorphous solid, instead of crystallizing)

There's a lot more to the article, but the most interesting part, to me, was the author's perspective, in that he's atheist.  So, when he's on his deathbed, instead of thinking there's nothing to come, instead he gets to have almost the same feeling that a Christian might have, which is 'what's next? is this it? will I wake up to eternity, or is it back to nothingness?'.

Not mentioned in the article is that, should space travel progress alongside medicine/vitrification, then overpopulation of the earth may cease being a valid point against vitrification.  If you can jet off to another planet then overpopulation maybe isn't such a big deal.

And lastly, the author never once suggests the idea of living forever.  He suggests the idea of taking your fill of life, instead of having happenstance make the choice for you.  Who here can confidently say that if they could live in a 20 year old's body for 10,000 years that they wouldn't?

From a financial perspective, the article is indeed very interesting, as the companies that do the vitrification (I think total cost is between 200-600k) tend to insist that you purchase whole life insurance with them as the beneficiary, which puts vitrification within reach of pretty much anyone who wants it.

If nothing else, the article should serve to prevent anyone who reads it from just dismissing vitrification out of hand.

BBub

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2016, 10:44:11 AM »
I definitely am okay with, perhaps even looking forward to, dying (and I say this as a person who thinks there is nothing after death).  But the amount of dragon worship here is incredible.

ARS - Why are you perhaps even looking forward to dying, if you think there is nothing after death?

What's dragon worship?

arebelspy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2016, 11:37:45 AM »
I definitely am okay with, perhaps even looking forward to, dying (and I say this as a person who thinks there is nothing after death).  But the amount of dragon worship here is incredible.

ARS - Why are you perhaps even looking forward to dying, if you think there is nothing after death?

For the same reason you look forward to completing any task.

What's dragon worship?

I was referencing the dragon short story linked in the WBW article.
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brooklynguy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 12:31:51 PM »
In my view, the most interesting question is the one the article raises and then promptly sidesteps entirely (because it admits we have no conclusive answer, and because the underlying philosophical issue was already thoroughly explored in the earlier, also excellent, WBW piece, "What Makes You You?")--namely:

Quote from: WBW
It’s hard to read about cryonic revival, and especially the prospect of "waking up" in a virtual world you’ve been uploaded into, without asking, "But wait…will that still be me?"

Leisured

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2016, 11:14:26 PM »
I apologise for being late to this thread; I have just discovered it.

Tibetan Buddhism has the idea of a Bardo, or transition. A baby in the womb undergoes a transition when it is suddenly thrust into the outer world. There are other transitions when the child grows up and becomes an adult, when the adult grows old and can no longer work, and an important transition at death. Buddhists believe that after death, the person is either reborn in this world, or moves on into a spiritual way of life, or becomes a celestial being. We cannot know what happens after death, any more than a baby in the womb can know of the outside world, so agnosticism is the only honest attitude.

In J K Rowling’s’ Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, chapter 35, Kings Cross, Harry briefly dies and meets the spirit of Dumbledore at what looks like Kings Cross Station, except that there are no trains, and the two are the only ones there. Late in the chapter, Dumbledore suggests that if Harry did not go back to material life, he might catch a train.

‘And where might it take me?’

‘On,’ said Dumbledore, simply.

Another transition.

When I started programming computers, about 1970, computer memory was scarce, so to save space some code was written in Assembly language, a second generation computer language. The code was primitive, but it allowed me to see exactly what the computer was doing, and I realised that the computer was entirely deterministic. Accordingly, I am sceptical that a computer will ever become conscious and introspective. Carrying this idea over to our brains, I suspect that we will never be able to point to one area of the brain, and regard our consciousness as residing in that area.

This brings us back – amazingly – to Cartesian Dualism, where body and spirit are joined, but the body is just a body, like a zombie which is infused by a non-material spirit. At death, it may be that the body falls away – shuffles off this mortal coil – and the spirit is released.


arebelspy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2016, 12:06:22 AM »
If you read this article, you'll understand that all of that, while interesting, and I agree with it, isn't relevant. 

It doesn't seem like you read the article in question. We're not talking about if you actually die, but if you're in what we modern day people call death, it's more like a coma.  You haven't really died yet.

Yes, once you're dead, you're dead.  You can't be brought back to life.  This isn't about bringing people back to life, but preserving them in a near death state to then revive them and prevent their death.
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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2016, 06:17:45 PM »
Why the hell not? It's a personal decision, just like who you worship, who you bang, or what drugs you partake (caffeine, cannabis, crack?). To die seems to me a big giant waste. All that knowledge and ability then at the sieze of your heart it all goes poof! Imagine if some of the ancient scientists could have been cryonized! No more having to rediscover a bunch of theories and ideas, no dark ages, someone around to remind people that certain past actions result in folly. I for one am glad people are working on this and have made it known to people since childhood that I want to live forever. I can't imagine a more human thing. Why would anyone wish to end learning, experiencing, loving and being loved, growing and exploring.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 06:20:37 PM by Johnez »

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2016, 08:23:29 AM »
Imagine how life would change if suddenly our actions and their consequences were no longer ephemeral. If I could live forever, I might not need to drive as fast or take risks where prudence is the right call.

Imagine if we were focusing on building a better tomorrow instead of propping short term gains carrying long term consequences.

For me, having the chance to be revived in the future is super interesting. Worst case, you are just signing up for an expensive funeral.

libertarian4321

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2016, 09:02:10 AM »
... and I realize that the God stuff is probably going to scare people off.

Not at all.

Religion is very important.

God promises that those of us who so believeth in him shall live forever in heaven, amongst strippers and a beer volcano.

"For the FSM so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, so that yada yada yada"  (John 3:16).

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2016, 11:25:22 AM »
I'd sign up for cyronics if it were reliable. It probably isn't so I probably won't. If I'm proven wrong, I may depending on how wrong I am.

If God exists, I doubt either choice will bother him.

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2016, 10:52:41 PM »
I did read the article, arebelspy, and I should have said that if in the future vitrified people are brought back to life, this can be seen as reincarnation in their original body. A Tibetan Buddhist would see being brought back to life as a transition. People who think that cryonics is their only chance at immortality may be wrong. Even with the enormous increase in scientific knowledge, we still do not know whether an after life exists; we can only guess.

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2016, 07:20:58 AM »
Even with the enormous increase in scientific knowledge, we still do not know whether an after life exists; we can only guess.

If you are going to talk about scientific knowledge and afterlife in the same sentence, you have to be aware that it's impossible to prove that something does not exist.

A more correct affirmation would be "With the scientific knowledge acquired to date, there is nothing suggesting that an after life exist."

I would even go as far as saying that scientific understanding of our universe suggest that there is not, in fact, an after life.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2016, 07:39:45 AM »
Even with the enormous increase in scientific knowledge, we still do not know whether an after life exists; we can only guess.

If you are going to talk about scientific knowledge and afterlife in the same sentence, you have to be aware that it's impossible to prove that something does not exist.

A more correct affirmation would be "With the scientific knowledge acquired to date, there is nothing suggesting that an after life exist."

I would even go as far as saying that scientific understanding of our universe suggest that there is not, in fact, an after life.

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

arebelspy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2016, 07:46:39 AM »
From what sources other than science can we gain knowledge?

I think your answer to that will immediately polarize people, and therein lies the issue.
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Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2016, 07:56:04 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2016, 08:12:50 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.

No this is a terrible use of Occam's Razor. It is only a guideline for the easiest to test hypothesis. It is not some mystical guide to always picking the correct answer.

Now if you were to have some scientific study on the existence of Leprechauns, (if such a thing were possible), Occam's Razor might lead you to first experiment with their none existence since it is the simplest, but it does not mean that you can just assume Leprechauns don't exist in all other experiments if you have not proven it.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2016, 08:17:37 AM »
From what sources other than science can we gain knowledge?

I think your answer to that will immediately polarize people, and therein lies the issue.

I think that we can gain knowledge from a wide variety of sources including but not limited to:
Personal life experiences
Talking to other people about their life experiences
Reading history (reading in general draws from the knowledge gained by people from the past)
Reflection and contemplation (I'm definitely an introvert)

Edited to add: Are there any sources besides science that you trust as a means to gain knowledge?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:28:22 AM by Éowyn MI »

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2016, 08:26:13 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.

No this is a terrible use of Occam's Razor. It is only a guideline for the easiest to test hypothesis. It is not some mystical guide to always picking the correct answer.

Now if you were to have some scientific study on the existence of Leprechauns, (if such a thing were possible), Occam's Razor might lead you to first experiment with their none existence since it is the simplest, but it does not mean that you can just assume Leprechauns don't exist in all other experiments if you have not proven it.

I agree that you can't use Occam's razor as a deterministic way to pick the correct answer. However, if you refer to my initial post, my beef with the sentence was that it made it seem as though both alternatives/hypothesis were as likely to be true.

We can already scientifically explain what happens when someone dies. If you have to add some magic to arrive at an alternative explanation, I would say that this qualify as a much more complex hypothesis.

From Wikipedia

"Put another way, any new, and even more complex, theory can still possibly be true. For example, if an individual makes supernatural claims that leprechauns were responsible for breaking a vase, the simpler explanation would be that he is mistaken, but ongoing ad hoc justifications (e.g. "... and that's not me on the film; they tampered with that, too") successfully prevent outright falsification. This endless supply of elaborate competing explanations, called saving hypotheses, cannot be ruled out—except by using Occam's razor."
 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:35:59 AM by Guses »

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2016, 08:27:20 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.


Why aren't both outcomes are equally probable? 

Would you agree with this statement: "Either there is an after life or there is not an after life."  If so, why wouldn't there be a 50/50 chance?  Of course, you don't have to agree; I'm actually curious as to your response.

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2016, 08:38:22 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.


Why aren't both outcomes are equally probable? 

Would you agree with this statement: "Either there is an after life or there is not an after life."  If so, why wouldn't there be a 50/50 chance?  Of course, you don't have to agree; I'm actually curious as to your response.

Because one can be explained by empirically verified and scientifically sound principles and the other requires new principles that have never been observed and/or magic.

Consider the following statement:

"This man is able to jump over the empire states building."

Is there a 50/50 chance of it being true?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:43:21 AM by Guses »

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2016, 08:44:57 AM »
You are stretching "what happens when you die" to also include "what happens after you die". They are two different questions, and I do not believe that there has been any study on the later. As no one disagrees with the first question.

arebelspy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2016, 09:00:18 AM »
Why aren't both outcomes are equally probable? 

Would you agree with this statement: "Either there is an after life or there is not an after life."  If so, why wouldn't there be a 50/50 chance?  Of course, you don't have to agree; I'm actually curious as to your response.

I'm thinking of a number between 1 and a trillion.

Either you can say it with your first guess, or you can't. 

Does that mean there's a 50/50 chance you can, just because there are two outcomes?
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arebelspy

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2016, 09:01:41 AM »
From what sources other than science can we gain knowledge?

I think your answer to that will immediately polarize people, and therein lies the issue.

I think that we can gain knowledge from a wide variety of sources including but not limited to:
Personal life experiences
Talking to other people about their life experiences
Reading history (reading in general draws from the knowledge gained by people from the past)
Reflection and contemplation (I'm definitely an introvert)

Edited to add: Are there any sources besides science that you trust as a means to gain knowledge?

And which of those sources (your life experiences, others' life experiences, history, or reflection/contemplation) can offer you knowledge about what happens after death?  And how?

As to your edit: What makes you assume I'd trust science as a source for knowledge?
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story of my pre-FI life pretty well and this MarketWatch article/video covers my post-FI life.

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2016, 09:06:25 AM »
You are stretching "what happens when you die" to also include "what happens after you die". They are two different questions, and I do not believe that there has been any study on the later. As no one disagrees with the first question.

A)Your synapses decompose and your consciousness is lost forever.

B)Leprechauns store your memories into the egg of a unicorn.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2016, 09:21:37 AM »

It sounds like you would agree with the statement that "The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of an after life."

If this is true then it would seem to me that we should use something other than a merely scientific understanding of the universe to form our conceptions of eternity/after life.  Because, clearly, science doesn't have the answer.

No I do not agree with the statement as written. It implies that both outcome are equally as probable.

It's like saying:

"The scientific knowledge acquired to date does not prove or disprove the existence of Leprechauns."

Using Occam's razor, we have to assume that Leprechauns do not exist because it is the simplest explanation given the evidence that we do have.


Why aren't both outcomes are equally probable? 

Would you agree with this statement: "Either there is an after life or there is not an after life."  If so, why wouldn't there be a 50/50 chance?  Of course, you don't have to agree; I'm actually curious as to your response.

Because one can be explained by empirically verified and scientifically sound principles and the other requires new principles that have never been observed and/or magic.

Consider the following statement:

"This man is able to jump over the empire states building."

Is there a 50/50 chance of it being true?

Starting from zero knowledge: yes

Starting with what I know about the height of the empire state building and the average man's ability to jump: no, obviously not

However, the empire state building and man's ability to jump can be physically measured.  How can we empirically verify something that we cannot measure or experience (until death)?

Guses

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2016, 09:29:33 AM »

Starting from zero knowledge: yes

Starting with what I know about the height of the empire state building and the average man's ability to jump: no, obviously not

However, the empire state building and man's ability to jump can be physically measured.  How can we empirically verify something that we cannot measure or experience (until death)?

This goes back to what I was saying above about Occam's razor.

Besides, there has been plenty of empirical studies on brain lesions. We already know that damaging certain areas of the brain also damages the personality, memories and consciousness state of an individual. The physical world we live in portion has been covered indeed.

However, if you consider someone's consciousness to be metaphysical in nature, then perhaps empirical testing and asking for scientific proof is not really appropriate. Said differently, if you believe in leprechauns, there is not much I can do to empirically prove that they don't exist.



« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:34:07 AM by Guses »

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2016, 09:30:43 AM »
Why aren't both outcomes are equally probable? 

Would you agree with this statement: "Either there is an after life or there is not an after life."  If so, why wouldn't there be a 50/50 chance?  Of course, you don't have to agree; I'm actually curious as to your response.

I'm thinking of a number between 1 and a trillion.

Either you can say it with your first guess, or you can't. 

Does that mean there's a 50/50 chance you can, just because there are two outcomes?

I don't think that is quite the same thing.  Your first statement increases the number of potential choices/outcomes to 1 trillion.  The number could be 3, 984, 2347 or 2387 etc... Are you saying that there are 1 trillion potential variations on the possibility of an after life?  To me, it seems like a true or false, 0 or 1, on or off situation.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: We Have to Start to Think About Eternity
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2016, 10:02:03 AM »
From what sources other than science can we gain knowledge?

I think your answer to that will immediately polarize people, and therein lies the issue.

I think that we can gain knowledge from a wide variety of sources including but not limited to:
Personal life experiences
Talking to other people about their life experiences
Reading history (reading in general draws from the knowledge gained by people from the past)
Reflection and contemplation (I'm definitely an introvert)

Edited to add: Are there any sources besides science that you trust as a means to gain knowledge?

And which of those sources (your life experiences, others' life experiences, history, or reflection/contemplation) can offer you knowledge about what happens after death?  And how?

As to your edit: What makes you assume I'd trust science as a source for knowledge?

All of these sources offer us the ability to gain knowledge about what happens after death.  Humans in general seem to have always been pretty interested in the concept of an afterlife.  To me, it seems reasonable to believe that people who lived in the past could have some intuition or awareness that we don’t have.  (Here, I’m thinking of the Native Americans who believed in spirits/afterlife.)  Ultimately, I have the responsibility of making the best choice that I can with the knowledge that I have.  As do we all. 

Your first sentence: “From what sources other than science can we gain knowledge?” implies that you consider science to be a source from which we gain knowledge.