Author Topic: US School Shootings  (Read 15949 times)

dycker1978

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2018, 09:27:44 AM »
My question is if it’s not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue.
Other countries have mental health issues as well. But we don't have the shootings. Next excuse.

Yeah I would say its more of a cultural thing.

Then again, Mexico is pretty violent and they flat out ban guns there.

If there weren't any guns, people would be using knives, bats, swords, who knows what else. There would still be killings, just not mass shootings.

People are people, no matter where they are from. Mankind is a violent species. Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise. Pick up any history book and half of it will focus on who was at war with who.

Good luck walking into a room and stabbing 500 or so like the Vegas shooting.  Knifes will be safer in regards to mass causality.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2018, 09:28:40 AM »
How about requiring liability insurance for legal gun ownership?  And requiring an equivalent to "uninsured motorist" from automotive liability, a supplemental uninsured shooter pool?  And taxing the shit out of ammo?  And requiring licensing, registration, and safety training?

Simply put, if you monetize the risk you change the conversation.  Firearms are an inherently dangerous instrumentality.  If I want to own one, I should pay for the inherent risk.

This is a pretty interesting concept. I am sure it would hit a lot of resistance though. I doubt criminals would be buying insurance, and the people who would likely be paying for all this would be the law abiding people who aren't causing most of these problems to begin with.

StarBright

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2018, 09:30:14 AM »
How about requiring liability insurance for legal gun ownership?  And requiring an equivalent to "uninsured motorist" from automotive liability, a supplemental uninsured shooter pool?  And taxing the shit out of ammo?  And requiring licensing, registration, and safety training?

Simply put, if you monetize the risk you change the conversation.  Firearms are an inherently dangerous instrumentality.  If I want to own one, I should pay for the inherent risk.

I like the above idea about insurance. When getting a policy written the potential owner would automatically be checked for things like domestic violence charges, number of guns already owned, frequency of purchases, etc. I'm 100% sure an actuary could easily and quickly asses risks based on many factors.

Snake P. Jenga

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2018, 09:32:58 AM »
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This is not a question of yes all guns or no guns at all. Plenty of gun owners support sane protections, like background checks and gun safety classes.

The NRA leadership is totally disconnected from what their members want. They are the ones with money and lobbyists, unfortunately.

Well then I have to ask: What the heck are all these people members of a party where the leadership doesn't represent them? Don't the leaders get elected by the members? (I honestly don't know). Whatever the case, there isn't enough outrage to change their stance.

Are you asking why someone would be an NRA member if they disagree with NRA lobbying actions, or how politicians can cater to special interests without being punished by the voters?

These are deep rabbit holes.

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2018, 09:35:27 AM »
How about requiring liability insurance for legal gun ownership?  And requiring an equivalent to "uninsured motorist" from automotive liability, a supplemental uninsured shooter pool?  And taxing the shit out of ammo?  And requiring licensing, registration, and safety training?

Simply put, if you monetize the risk you change the conversation.  Firearms are an inherently dangerous instrumentality.  If I want to own one, I should pay for the inherent risk.

This is a pretty interesting concept. I am sure it would hit a lot of resistance though. I doubt criminals would be buying insurance, and the people who would likely be paying for all this would be the law abiding people who aren't causing most of these problems to begin with.

Once a gun is sold via private sale in most states there is no record of ownership anymore.  It would be difficult to assign liability for a weapon that you can't prove ownership of.  For it to work, a national gun registry would also be required.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2018, 09:38:28 AM »
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Once a gun is sold via private sale in most states there is no record of ownership anymore.  It would be difficult to assign liability for a weapon that you can't prove ownership of.  For it to work, a national gun registry would also be required.

Which will never happen. i doubt it could happen at the state level.

OurTown

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2018, 09:52:20 AM »
Who bears the risk now?  The victims and victims' families.  Is that fair? 

Let's assume (probably correctly) that there would be a substantial number of persons who would not buy the insurance.  Who should bear the risk that an uninsured shooter would do what we just witnessed yesterday?  Victims or gun-owners?

shenlong55

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2018, 09:53:00 AM »
Quote
Once a gun is sold via private sale in most states there is no record of ownership anymore.  It would be difficult to assign liability for a weapon that you can't prove ownership of.  For it to work, a national gun registry would also be required.

Which will never happen. i doubt it could happen at the state level.

Yep.  Because Americans have decided that a slightly higher possibility of their guns being taken away from them is too high of a cost to pay for reduced gun violence.  Not guns actually being taken away from people, just the idea that it could possibly be done easier if someone actually wanted it.  I try to understand all sides of an argument, but I'm not gonna lie, this one is not a perspective that I respect much.

ETA: And I realize why now.  Because I don't respect decisions that are harmful to others and are made solely based on fear.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 10:07:10 AM by shenlong55 »

Kris

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2018, 10:02:31 AM »
Pretty sure this thread is a pretty good demonstration of the answer to the OP's question.

This is the spinning, flailing conversation we have every single time a mass shooting happens, INSTEAD of actually doing something about it.

seattlecyclone

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2018, 10:54:30 AM »
Not looking to offend or annoy anyone, but as a UK citizen I find it beyond baffling that the US government does precious little to stop the scourge of school shootings. So many families destroyed.

The right to bear arms seems a total nonsense and it is clearly abused. Why does the NRA have such a grip on the government?

Because they have a large number of members who care deeply about this issue and make their opinions known to their representatives.

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Where do you stand on the issue?

I think it's time to revisit the Second Amendment. A nationwide individual right to own a weapon makes less sense in our increasingly urbanized country than it might have in the past.

That said, I am persuaded that the Second Amendment is indeed the law of the land and it does indeed protect the individual right to own a weapon. There is a procedure in place to change that law, and we should follow it rather than trying to find some sort of legal loophole to get around it. That means getting two-thirds of both houses of Congress and three-quarters of state legislatures to agree on an amendment. That's a pretty high bar to clear, I know. When it comes to altering the very foundational document of our country, I think we need to be deliberate about achieving real consensus on the issue rather than having one party ram something through on a slim majority.

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The NRA exploit the 2nd Amendment, written when people had muskets.

At the time the 2nd Amendment was written, it was legal for private individuals to own armed merchant-ships with enough firepower to level a city.

Even if it's true that more powerful weapons can be owned by a private individual now than in 1789, I find this argument rather unpersuasive. When the Constitution was ratified, we didn't have telephones or radios or televisions or the internet. If Constitutional rights can only truly be exercised using technologies that were available at the time, that would seem to indicate that freedom of the press is only legally protected when we're talking about newspapers printed on a mechanical printing press using hand-set type. Do you really want to go there?

Pigeon

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2018, 11:11:50 AM »
I'm very much in favor of strong gun control laws and think the Second Amendment was meant to talk about militia, not the population at large.  Our current situation is appalling.

As for the wanting to frame this entirely as a mental health issue, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and find it ironic that the same politicians who spout that stuff are generally the same ones who want to cut funding for healthcare, mental and otherwise.

DarkandStormy

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2018, 11:20:52 AM »
As for the wanting to frame this entirely as a mental health issue, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and find it ironic that the same politicians who spout that stuff are generally the same ones who want to cut funding for healthcare, mental and otherwise.

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@realDonaldTrump
So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43071710

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The FBI has confirmed that it was warned about the teenager who allegedly carried out a mass shooting at his former school in Florida.

Nikolas Cruz, who has been charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder, reportedly left a comment on a YouTube video last year stating: "I'm going to be a professional school shooter."

A user alerted authorities to the post.

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Trump's 2018 budget proposal contained a 23% reduction in mental health services block grants and $625 million in combined cuts to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration and the National Institute of Mental Health.

So The Cheeto blamed students (wtf??!) for not reporting this kid to authorities...but oh wait, the FBI was alerted last year.  He also references he was "mentally disturbed" (funny how that never gets applied to people of color, but that's a different discussion) and proposed a budget LAST WEEK that made huge cuts to mental health services.

This is the dumbest f***ing thing I've ever read.

shenlong55

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2018, 11:26:01 AM »
I'm very much in favor of strong gun control laws and think the Second Amendment was meant to talk about militia, not the population at large.  Our current situation is appalling.

As for the wanting to frame this entirely as a mental health issue, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and find it ironic that the same politicians who spout that stuff are generally the same ones who want to cut funding for healthcare, mental and otherwise.

Yeah, the pro-gun side likes to make the mental health argument, but they utterly fail when it comes to taking action on their own arguments...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2018, 11:36:35 AM »
I'm very much in favor of strong gun control laws and think the Second Amendment was meant to talk about militia, not the population at large.  Our current situation is appalling.

As for the wanting to frame this entirely as a mental health issue, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, and find it ironic that the same politicians who spout that stuff are generally the same ones who want to cut funding for healthcare, mental and otherwise.

Yeah, the pro-gun side likes to make the mental health argument, but they utterly fail when it comes to taking action on their own arguments...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness


This action is entrely consistent if you don't actually believe that there is a problem, accept gun violence as the cost of freedom, and are simply throwing words out there because you don't want change.

NeonPegasus

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2018, 11:50:47 AM »
Roughly speaking 80-90% of Americans support background checks for all gun sales. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/oct/03/chris-abele/do-90-americans-support-background-checks-all-gun-/ And yet the NRA fights tooth and nail against any additional regulations.

Someone above said that Americans aren't outraged enough. I'm outraged! My friends are outraged! I call my representatives to tell them I'm outraged because I read that phone calls are the best way to communicated. Some young intern answers the phone, listens to what I say, says thanks for calling and that's it. All I am is a tick mark in the "against guns" column. I live in a conservative state with Republican senators and I know that everything I say falls on deaf ears. Those ears are bought and paid for by the NRA.

And who pays for the NRA? Every day people. Somehow, though a vast majority of NRA members support some basic gun control changes, they see no contradiction in sending their money to the organization that ensures they won't happen.

From http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/10/us/other-gun-lobby/

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Some political funding comes from big corporations, many within the gun industry, which donate millions to the NRA. But companies are barred from donating to the NRA’s political action committee, which the agency uses to fill campaign coffers, run ads and send out mailers for and against candidates.

That’s where individual donations come in.

Since 2005, the NRA Political Victory Fund has received nearly $85 million in contributions from individual donors. After the 2012 Sandy Hook shooting, donations to this political action committee surged as gun owners worried that their rights to buy and own guns were at risk. ... Contributions came from nearly 30,000 donors, with around 90% of donations made by people who gave less than $200 in a single year. According to the NRA, the average donation is around $35.

30,000 people donated the money that the NRA uses to hold our politicians by the balls/ovaries. Out of 323,100,000 people in this country. 0.00929% of our country is using an average of $35 to influence what happens to the other 99.99% of us!

The only way I can see to change this is for Everytown for Gun Safety to adopt the same tactics, raise more money and buy our fucking politicians back. http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2015/10/us/other-gun-lobby/

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2018, 12:37:33 PM »
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Someone above said that Americans aren't outraged enough. I'm outraged! My friends are outraged! I call my representatives to tell them I'm outraged because I read that phone calls are the best way to communicated. Some young intern answers the phone, listens to what I say, says thanks for calling and that's it. All I am is a tick mark in the "against guns" column. I live in a conservative state with Republican senators and I know that everything I say falls on deaf ears.

Hi, I said that and stick by it. Of course you are outraged and so are many more. But the vast majority of people will not do anything about it. And when the news story fades they will be on to thinking about something else, until the next shooting, and then they will ask, "how can this keep going on?". Rinse and repeat.

So when I say not outraged enough, I mean the majority of the people are going to have to be really motivated to protest for change, and I just don't see that happening.

I think part of the problem is guilt. I think there are a lot of gun owners out there that you would have to get on board with changing the laws. Many are reluctant to support banning guns because they like owning guns. How you can get them not to be defensive about their position in the first place. "If I own a gun and haven't used it in any other way besides what is legal, how are you going to convince me to give it up? Guilt me into thinking its the right choice? I am a law abiding citizen. I haven't done anything wrong. I feel its my right. I am sorry about the school shootings but I am not part of the problem."

Making someone feel guilty about something they aren't responsible for, or attacking their views, is just going to make them get defensive and make them dig their heels in.

I don't think people are really going to make change as a society until more and more families lose loved ones to gun violence.

So no, there isn't enough outrage. We are nowhere near that level yet. When I see million man marches in Washington over guns, then I'll accept that the ball is rolling.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 12:39:56 PM by KTG »

Krolik

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2018, 12:59:39 PM »

Those of us looking in at the USA from the outside are totally bewildered that a minority interest group funded by a small manufacturing industry has cowed US politicians into being the abject lackeys of the mass murder lobbyists.

I live here and still can't wrap my head around American sick fixation on guns. This is just beyond understanding...(maybe because I grew up in Europe).

This shooting happened 15 miles from the place where we live and work. It really hit close to home. Some of the people I work with are personally affected. But you still hear comments about how wonderful the right to bear arms is. THIS IS NOT NORMAL!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 01:13:34 PM by Krolik »

Eric

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2018, 01:01:01 PM »
Every time a gun control thread pops up lots of people join in with their opinions and insults of those they disagree with little real data to back them up. After a while the people who really only care enough to shout and get worked up about it will disappear and a sparse few will continue the conversation by getting into the details and actually use data to back up their assertions (the insults persist, but to a lesser extent.

Anyone interested in actually learning something should find an old gun control thread and skip forward 5-10 pages. If you want to have an actual conversation you'll have to wait until the angry people get tired of shouting here.

There's a reason for this.  It's because the government is literally barred from collecting the data.  It's completely disgusting that we're not even allowed to examine the data.  This is of course due to NRA lobbying and GOP cowardice.

Here's Prez Obama talking about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg&feature=youtu.be

(side note - isn't it simply refreshing how articulate he is?  Can you imagine our current president responding in this manner?  WTF is going on in this country?)

Johnez

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2018, 01:15:57 PM »
The rate of violence in mentally ill people is lower than the general population. I can't locate the article I recently read/heard (pretty sure it was NPR). Perhaps this is because statistics include people who would have a hard time pointing a gun if they tried such as Alzheimer's patients (who incidentally Trump seems happy to arm). Regardless, it's obvious the "mentally ill" are the scapegoat for gun violence these days instead of being helped.

zoltani

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2018, 01:25:10 PM »
The rate of violence in mentally ill people is lower than the general population. I can't locate the article I recently read/heard (pretty sure it was NPR). Perhaps this is because statistics include people who would have a hard time pointing a gun if they tried such as Alzheimer's patients (who incidentally Trump seems happy to arm). Regardless, it's obvious the "mentally ill" are the scapegoat for gun violence these days instead of being helped.

I agree, and I think part of it is that people want to say it's mental illness because the alternative is terrifying, that someone could carry out such an act with a rational mind. Take the vegas shooter for example. I have a hard time believing that someone can spend over a year planning an attack when in the throws of a mental illness. The scary thing is how calculated and rational it all was.

StarBright

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2018, 01:30:18 PM »

Someone above said that Americans aren't outraged enough. I'm outraged! My friends are outraged! I call my representatives to tell them I'm outraged because I read that phone calls are the best way to communicated. Some young intern answers the phone, listens to what I say, says thanks for calling and that's it. All I am is a tick mark in the "against guns" column. I live in a conservative state with Republican senators and I know that everything I say falls on deaf ears. Those ears are bought and paid for by the NRA.


NeonPegasus - this is what I'm doing today: Reaching out to my friends and family that are Republican gun owners who support basic things like background checks etc, and asking them to call their reps and basically say "I am a gun owner and NRA member and I won't vote you out for working across the aisle on some entry level solutions like collecting data on gun deaths and implementing background checks for all gun sales."

I truly believe gun control is an area where we can have bipartisan effort and I'm doing my best at the ground level.  I'm encouraging other folks to do the same!

EmFrugal

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2018, 01:38:29 PM »
So for those of use who finally are outraged (I'm a mother of three small children... one of who is now in the public school system) and want to do something about this issue, what are the best steps to take?

1)What should I read to learn more about the issue at large?
2)What groups should I research?
3)Who should I talk to?

The biggest challenge I see from reading all of this seems to be working toward a solution that does not alienate law abiding gun owners and actually gets them on board toward positive change.

PeggySue

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2018, 01:40:38 PM »
I don't understand why we (the US) can't even have a conversation about gun issues (notice: not even "gun control")

As referenced above, the US can't even study this:https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/02/gun-violence-public-health/553430/?utm_source=atltw

I am from a very conservative area and was reading the comments on the local news coverage.  The common consensus is that we need to 1) arm all teachers and 2)hire veterans to patrol schools.  Do teachers want this??  I am not a teacher (librarian) but I am in educational setting vulnerable to potential attacks.  I don't want to be armed, I don't want to be trained to be armed, and I don't even know how to respond to this because it is such a ludicrous argument to me.

Something about this shooting did more than just break my heart; it has made me hopeless that we have any will to stop this.

Pigeon

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2018, 01:41:07 PM »

Those of us looking in at the USA from the outside are totally bewildered that a minority interest group funded by a small manufacturing industry has cowed US politicians into being the abject lackeys of the mass murder lobbyists.

I live here and still can't wrap my head around American sick fixation on guns. This is just beyond understanding...(maybe because I grew up in Europe).

This shooting happened 15 miles from the place where we live and work. It really hit close to home. Some of the people I work with are personally affected. But you still hear comments about how wonderful the right to bear arms is. THIS IS NOT NORMAL!

Well, I was born and raised here as were my parents, and I don't get it either.  Unless you hunt for food and need a rifle to do so or are an actual law enforcement official, the attraction of owning any kind of gun is beyond my understanding, too. 

DarkandStormy

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2018, 01:59:12 PM »
For those who are feeling hopeless or asking what to do:

https://twitter.com/joanwalsh/status/964000131413659648

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I want to remind everyone about Virginia 2017: In the 13 races where pro-gun control Democrats squared off against NRA Republicans, Democrats won 12. Top of the ticket -- Northam, Fairfax and Herring -- had F NRA ratings, and all won. It's not hopeless.

Look up candidates who took money from the NRA. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/04/opinion/thoughts-prayers-nra-funding-senators.html?mtrref=t.co&assetType=opinion

Vote for their opponent.  Talk to your friends, family, neighbors.  Try to convince them to vote for the candidate the NRA does not like or support.

Imma

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2018, 02:18:54 PM »
I just find the whole thing really sad and depressing, hate seeing it, its almost occurring so often that its no longer shocking, and people are being desensitised to it.

Trump and co blaming it on mental health is just an easy excuse.

There is no need for a full automatic rifle to be in anyones possession.
As a proud supporter of the 2nd amendment, I don't disagree with your last sentence. The NRA isnt' as evil as the left tries to make them out to be. THey too are against bump-stocks (used in Las Vegas shooting) that makes a semi-auto "act" as a full auto. However,  the ownership of a fully-auto gun is heavily regulated and it is illegal for private citizens to own a fully-auto made after 1986. A semi-auto gun was used yesterday. Means one shot per trigger pull. Not a full-auto where holding down the trigger shoots off bullets until the clip runs out. Unfortunately, it seems those who have the least understanding of guns and their laws are the ones who use the easy excuse that banning them is going to stop this. Just like heavy penalties of use/creating/distribution of drugs and murdering people stops people from using/creating/distributing drugs and murdering people.

Not specifically calling you out, but I find it interesting that it takes a school shooting for the gun right opposers to come out of the woodwork. Nobody bats an eye when police officers are killed in the line of duty or the hundreds each and every day who are victims of gun violence in the inner cities. But gosh darnit, they're going to push that political agenda when the opportunity presents itself! Nobody cares about the number of innocent people killed due to alcohol and/or car related deaths every year.

It's almost like people who commit these atrocities have no regard for the law. Simply banning guns is lazy and will not work.

I never said banning guns, and I think few people in this thread have said that. I'm European, and contrary to what some people seem to believe, I don't think guns are completely banned in any European country. Ownership is more or less restricted in different countries. I am from a family that used to keep guns, I know people that keep guns. I don't think people who own guns are bad people and it's possible to be a responsible gun owner. In Europe, atrocities happen sometimes and organized crime has guns and people sometimes get killed. We're not Disneyland.

Still, the major difference is it doesn't happenall the time. I said earlier, in my country of 17 million inhabitants, that is a major hub for the trafficking of drugs, about 250 people a year get killed and most of them not through gun violence. In the last 50 years, less than 20 cops have died in the line of duty. We have had one mass shooting in our entire history. The statistics I could find show that 80.000 people own 200.000 legal weapons and there are an estimated 100.000 illegal guns. Of course that's a very rough estimate, who knows, it might be double that amount. So it's true that the bad guys definitely have guns, but they choose not to use them all the time. There are actually many European countries that have fairly high number of guns per capita and they're not exactly the countries we'd call unsafe or have major gun violence issues (all of Scandinavia, Iceland, Germany, Switzerland). Of course, none of them have more guns than people like the US does, no other country owns such an insane amount of weapons.

There is just something in the American culture that causes people, both bad guys and good guys, to use guns all the time. And it's a downward spiral because the more bad guys use guns, the more good guys want to be protected, and the more violence criminals use, the more violent police has to be, which in turn increases violence in criminals. All in all, gun violence has become a very normal part of life. I think some Americans don't understand how abnormal your country is. Visit any first world country and see for yourself that this is a downward spiral that is unique to the US. No other first world country has gun violence and incarceration rates worse than the average third world country.

So what you guys need to do is not look at your legislation (although restrictions on the sale of military-style weapons, the amount of weapons and bullets a single person can own, and thorough background checks on gun owners are of course a good thing and I think most Americans agree on this) but to look at what causes so many people in your country to shoot other people. No amount of legislation can solve that problem. If you ban guns but don't solve the real issue, the next guy wanting to kill his whole school is just going to set off a bomb instead.

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2018, 02:20:48 PM »
The rate of violence in mentally ill people is lower than the general population. I can't locate the article I recently read/heard (pretty sure it was NPR). Perhaps this is because statistics include people who would have a hard time pointing a gun if they tried such as Alzheimer's patients (who incidentally Trump seems happy to arm). Regardless, it's obvious the "mentally ill" are the scapegoat for gun violence these days instead of being helped.

I agree, and I think part of it is that people want to say it's mental illness because the alternative is terrifying, that someone could carry out such an act with a rational mind. Take the vegas shooter for example. I have a hard time believing that someone can spend over a year planning an attack when in the throws of a mental illness. The scary thing is how calculated and rational it all was.
I have similar issues with people describing perpetrators of these shootings as "evil".  In a society with a Christian heritage it seems to me that describing someone as evil makes them "other", makes them the thing which is the Sunday worship bogeyman, makes them not human like me and you.  It denies that the thoughts and impulses which lead to these actions are a part of the inevitably flawed human condition to which we are all subject.  It means that no action needs to be taken to prevent people from getting to the stage where their thoughts and impulses lead them to buy a gun and shoot unsuspecting children, because it was all an inevitable part of their "evil" nature.  It's yet another cop-out that helps people avoid the hard questions and the harder answers.

Kris

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2018, 02:26:11 PM »
For those who are feeling hopeless or asking what to do:

https://twitter.com/joanwalsh/status/964000131413659648

Quote
I want to remind everyone about Virginia 2017: In the 13 races where pro-gun control Democrats squared off against NRA Republicans, Democrats won 12. Top of the ticket -- Northam, Fairfax and Herring -- had F NRA ratings, and all won. It's not hopeless.

Look up candidates who took money from the NRA. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/04/opinion/thoughts-prayers-nra-funding-senators.html?mtrref=t.co&assetType=opinion

Vote for their opponent.  Talk to your friends, family, neighbors.  Try to convince them to vote for the candidate the NRA does not like or support.

Indeed. This is probably step 1. And let's call it what it is. The GOP needs to be voted out.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/ex-gop-rep-urges-voters-flip-house-want-results-gun-control-republicans-will-never-anything/#.WoXGEK94_HI.facebook


“Let me be honest,” Jolly replied. “I’m a conservative Second Amendment person who sponsored some pretty hard-core Second Amendment bills … I believe in Second Amendment issues, but I believe in background checks and reasonable restrictions—maybe even banning assault rifles.”

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2018, 02:28:05 PM »
The rate of violence in mentally ill people is lower than the general population. I can't locate the article I recently read/heard (pretty sure it was NPR). Perhaps this is because statistics include people who would have a hard time pointing a gun if they tried such as Alzheimer's patients (who incidentally Trump seems happy to arm). Regardless, it's obvious the "mentally ill" are the scapegoat for gun violence these days instead of being helped.

I agree, and I think part of it is that people want to say it's mental illness because the alternative is terrifying, that someone could carry out such an act with a rational mind. Take the vegas shooter for example. I have a hard time believing that someone can spend over a year planning an attack when in the throws of a mental illness. The scary thing is how calculated and rational it all was.
I have similar issues with people describing perpetrators of these shootings as "evil".  In a society with a Christian heritage it seems to me that describing someone as evil makes them "other", makes them the thing which is the Sunday worship bogeyman, makes them not human like me and you.  It denies that the thoughts and impulses which lead to these actions are a part of the inevitably flawed human condition to which we are all subject.  It means that no action needs to be taken to prevent people from getting to the stage where their thoughts and impulses lead them to buy a gun and shoot unsuspecting children, because it was all an inevitable part of their "evil" nature.  It's yet another cop-out that helps people avoid the hard questions and the harder answers.

Thomas Szasz said: So long as men denounce each other as mentally sick (homosexual, addicted, insane, and so forth)—so that the madman can always be considered the Other, never the Self—mental illness will remain an easily exploitable concept, and Coercive Psychiatry a flourishing institution.

It's why I like the Jungian view of the shadow self. We all have it within us, and the more you deny it the stronger it can grow. A good mental exercise is to follow your shadow as deep fucking down as you can go to fully see your darkness. It can be terrifying, but can allow you to cultivate a true understanding of yourself. After all I think under the right circumstances we could all be the mass shooter or concentration camp guard.

Kris

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2018, 02:34:20 PM »
The rate of violence in mentally ill people is lower than the general population. I can't locate the article I recently read/heard (pretty sure it was NPR). Perhaps this is because statistics include people who would have a hard time pointing a gun if they tried such as Alzheimer's patients (who incidentally Trump seems happy to arm). Regardless, it's obvious the "mentally ill" are the scapegoat for gun violence these days instead of being helped.

I agree, and I think part of it is that people want to say it's mental illness because the alternative is terrifying, that someone could carry out such an act with a rational mind. Take the vegas shooter for example. I have a hard time believing that someone can spend over a year planning an attack when in the throws of a mental illness. The scary thing is how calculated and rational it all was.
I have similar issues with people describing perpetrators of these shootings as "evil".  In a society with a Christian heritage it seems to me that describing someone as evil makes them "other", makes them the thing which is the Sunday worship bogeyman, makes them not human like me and you.  It denies that the thoughts and impulses which lead to these actions are a part of the inevitably flawed human condition to which we are all subject.  It means that no action needs to be taken to prevent people from getting to the stage where their thoughts and impulses lead them to buy a gun and shoot unsuspecting children, because it was all an inevitable part of their "evil" nature.  It's yet another cop-out that helps people avoid the hard questions and the harder answers.

Thomas Szasz said: So long as men denounce each other as mentally sick (homosexual, addicted, insane, and so forth)—so that the madman can always be considered the Other, never the Self—mental illness will remain an easily exploitable concept, and Coercive Psychiatry a flourishing institution.

It's why I like the Jungian view of the shadow self. We all have it within us, and the more you deny it the stronger it can grow. A good mental exercise is to follow your shadow as deep fucking down as you can go to fully see your darkness. It can be terrifying, but can allow you to cultivate a true understanding of yourself. After all I think under the right circumstances we could all be the mass shooter or concentration camp guard.

Exactly. And it's a uniquely protestant/puritanical view that Anglo-American society has (and that's not a racial term, it's referring to the common cultural heritage of Anglo-protestant morality), that people are either good or bad, sane or crazy, etc.

Mental health is a convenient way for people who don't want to have a conversation about guns to shunt off the discussion to something completely different. And it's even "better" (snark) because people with mental illness don't exactly have a powerful lobbying group to counter this narrative, so it can go more or less unchecked by folks seeking to steer the conversation. The reality, though, is that it's not really a mental illness problem nearly as much as they would like it to be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/why-better-mental-health-care-wont-stop-mass-shootings/541965/

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2018, 02:45:49 PM »
So for those of use who finally are outraged (I'm a mother of three small children... one of who is now in the public school system) and want to do something about this issue, what are the best steps to take?

1)What should I read to learn more about the issue at large?
2)What groups should I research?
3)Who should I talk to?

The biggest challenge I see from reading all of this seems to be working toward a solution that does not alienate law abiding gun owners and actually gets them on board toward positive change.

In addition to using your vote to elect politicians who support gun control, you can contribute to Everytown for Gun Safety. They are the largest group that opposes the NRA. Since the average donation to the NRA is $35, I contributed that much to them and challenged my FB friends to do so as well. Even my AR15 owning brother felt their agenda was based on common sense.



ingrownstudentloans

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2018, 03:35:11 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

He certainly didn't make it harder.  Shouldn't that be the goal?

He upheld the constitution, isn't that what he is supposed to do?  (Before people freak - it was the 4th amendment, not the 2nd, that was the issue).  The ACLU stood side-by-side with the NRA (for different reasons I am sure) in objecting to this proposed rule...

Yesterday was terrible, nobody denies that, but facts do matter.  This knee-jerk reaction to throw fits and point fingers at the other said does not help and only further entrenches each side. In order to get to solutions that might actually work (for both sides) we cannot throw around factually inaccurate allegations.  This is the third post I have made in this thread, the other two (one quoted above) were to point out factual inaccuracies made by others. I don't have answers, but I do believe in facts. 

TVRodriguez

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2018, 03:48:16 PM »
So for those of use who finally are outraged (I'm a mother of three small children... one of who is now in the public school system) and want to do something about this issue, what are the best steps to take?

1)What should I read to learn more about the issue at large?
2)What groups should I research?
3)Who should I talk to?

The biggest challenge I see from reading all of this seems to be working toward a solution that does not alienate law abiding gun owners and actually gets them on board toward positive change.

In addition to using your vote to elect politicians who support gun control, you can contribute to Everytown for Gun Safety. They are the largest group that opposes the NRA. Since the average donation to the NRA is $35, I contributed that much to them and challenged my FB friends to do so as well. Even my AR15 owning brother felt their agenda was based on common sense.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I just looked them up and saw it's former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg's group, and I donated $50.

Eric

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2018, 03:57:17 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

He certainly didn't make it harder.  Shouldn't that be the goal?

He upheld the constitution, isn't that what he is supposed to do? (Before people freak - it was the 4th amendment, not the 2nd, that was the issue).  The ACLU stood side-by-side with the NRA (for different reasons I am sure) in objecting to this proposed rule...

Yesterday was terrible, nobody denies that, but facts do matter.  This knee-jerk reaction to throw fits and point fingers at the other said does not help and only further entrenches each side. In order to get to solutions that might actually work (for both sides) we cannot throw around factually inaccurate allegations.  This is the third post I have made in this thread, the other two (one quoted above) were to point out factual inaccuracies made by others. I don't have answers, but I do believe in facts.

Come on now.  He upheld the position held by (one of) the largest contributors to his party's re-election cause.  There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.  The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.

I'm also failing to see any knee-jerk reactions.  That would imply that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often, as opposed to being a fucking daily occurrence.

shenlong55

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2018, 05:31:27 PM »


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

After looking into it a bit more maybe this wasn't the best example.  I'm not entirely convinced, but there may be a bit more of a grey area here than I initially thought.  I still think the main point of my post is valid though.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk


daverobev

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2018, 05:33:43 PM »
Every time a gun control thread pops up lots of people join in with their opinions and insults of those they disagree with little real data to back them up. After a while the people who really only care enough to shout and get worked up about it will disappear and a sparse few will continue the conversation by getting into the details and actually use data to back up their assertions (the insults persist, but to a lesser extent.

Anyone interested in actually learning something should find an old gun control thread and skip forward 5-10 pages. If you want to have an actual conversation you'll have to wait until the angry people get tired of shouting here.

There's a reason for this.  It's because the government is literally barred from collecting the data.  It's completely disgusting that we're not even allowed to examine the data.  This is of course due to NRA lobbying and GOP cowardice.

Here's Prez Obama talking about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg&feature=youtu.be

(side note - isn't it simply refreshing how articulate he is?  Can you imagine our current president responding in this manner?  WTF is going on in this country?)

He's a decent, intelligent, rational, balanced, humorous human being.

No wonder the rest of the world *loves* him.

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2018, 05:44:08 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/15/17016036/trump-guns-mental-illness

http://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

He certainly didn't make it harder.  Shouldn't that be the goal?

He upheld the constitution, isn't that what he is supposed to do? (Before people freak - it was the 4th amendment, not the 2nd, that was the issue).  The ACLU stood side-by-side with the NRA (for different reasons I am sure) in objecting to this proposed rule...

Yesterday was terrible, nobody denies that, but facts do matter.  This knee-jerk reaction to throw fits and point fingers at the other said does not help and only further entrenches each side. In order to get to solutions that might actually work (for both sides) we cannot throw around factually inaccurate allegations.  This is the third post I have made in this thread, the other two (one quoted above) were to point out factual inaccuracies made by others. I don't have answers, but I do believe in facts.

Come on now.  He upheld the position held by (one of) the largest contributors to his party's re-election cause.  There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.  The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.

I'm also failing to see any knee-jerk reactions.  That would imply that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often, as opposed to being a fucking daily occurrence.

He also upheld the position of the ACLU.  News flash, the ACLU doesn't like the Don (https://www.aclu.org/blog/executive-branch/people-v-donald-trump).

There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.
Not what the article said - the unconstitutionality of the rule was the lack of due process afforded by the 4th amendment.  Surely you are not saying we should willfully ignore the 4th amendment of the constitution.  If you are advocating for subjective picking and choosing when to apply the constitution and when not to, then say that, at least you will be intellectually honest in your approach. 

The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.
 

I will say again, there are facts out there that one must check before making a knee-jerk reaction about something that person does not want to hear or does not agree with.  Reason is not an NRA shill. 
See:
- https://reason.com/blog/2016/07/07/black-lives-matter-and-so-do-their-gun-r
- https://reason.com/blog/2014/05/14/nra-launches-millennial-gun-series-noir
- https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/nra-backed-law-violates-the-first-amendm



Eric

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2018, 07:09:00 PM »
Come on now.  He upheld the position held by (one of) the largest contributors to his party's re-election cause.  There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.  The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.

I'm also failing to see any knee-jerk reactions.  That would imply that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often, as opposed to being a fucking daily occurrence.

He also upheld the position of the ACLU.  News flash, the ACLU doesn't like the Don (https://www.aclu.org/blog/executive-branch/people-v-donald-trump).

That link doesn't even mention that the ACLU stance on the issue, let alone claim that they are in agreement with Trump on the issue.  Maybe you were hoping I wouldn't actually read it?

Somehow I doubt Trump suddenly decided that he was a constitutional defender.  I'm not sure exactly why.  Maybe I should read your linked article again about all of his blatant violations to date?

There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.
Not what the article said - the unconstitutionality of the rule was the lack of due process afforded by the 4th amendment.  Surely you are not saying we should willfully ignore the 4th amendment of the constitution.  If you are advocating for subjective picking and choosing when to apply the constitution and when not to, then say that, at least you will be intellectually honest in your approach. 

Yeah, I read it.  And it's a total red herring.  If you think keeping guns from mentally unstable people is not primarily, secondarily, and tertiarily regarding the 2nd amendment, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.
 

I will say again, there are facts out there that one must check before making a knee-jerk reaction about something that person does not want to hear or does not agree with.  Reason is not an NRA shill. 
See:
- https://reason.com/blog/2016/07/07/black-lives-matter-and-so-do-their-gun-r
- https://reason.com/blog/2014/05/14/nra-launches-millennial-gun-series-noir
- https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/nra-backed-law-violates-the-first-amendm

Fine, it's a red herring posted in an article on a website that also allows alternative viewpoints.  Happy?

The idea that we're upholding the constitution through inaction on this issue is blatant propaganda.  It follows the NRA script of turning everything into a Slippery Slope to a fucking T.  Don't do this one thing, because later on, someone else might do something different.  Therefore, keep the status quo so gun manufacturers can continue to make huge profits we can maintain our freedom.

shenlong55

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2018, 07:17:51 PM »
Come on now.  He upheld the position held by (one of) the largest contributors to his party's re-election cause.  There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.  The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.

I'm also failing to see any knee-jerk reactions.  That would imply that this sort of thing doesn't happen very often, as opposed to being a fucking daily occurrence.

He also upheld the position of the ACLU.  News flash, the ACLU doesn't like the Don (https://www.aclu.org/blog/executive-branch/people-v-donald-trump).

That link doesn't even mention that the ACLU stance on the issue, let alone claim that they are in agreement with Trump on the issue.  Maybe you were hoping I wouldn't actually read it?

Somehow I doubt Trump suddenly decided that he was a constitutional defender.  I'm not sure exactly why.  Maybe I should read your linked article again about all of his blatant violations to date?

There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.
Not what the article said - the unconstitutionality of the rule was the lack of due process afforded by the 4th amendment.  Surely you are not saying we should willfully ignore the 4th amendment of the constitution.  If you are advocating for subjective picking and choosing when to apply the constitution and when not to, then say that, at least you will be intellectually honest in your approach. 

Yeah, I read it.  And it's a total red herring.  If you think keeping guns from mentally unstable people is not primarily, secondarily, and tertiarily regarding the 2nd amendment, then I have a bridge to sell you.

The idea that it's a 4th amendment issue is a total red herring from a source that's likely on the NRA payroll as well.
 

I will say again, there are facts out there that one must check before making a knee-jerk reaction about something that person does not want to hear or does not agree with.  Reason is not an NRA shill. 
See:
- https://reason.com/blog/2016/07/07/black-lives-matter-and-so-do-their-gun-r
- https://reason.com/blog/2014/05/14/nra-launches-millennial-gun-series-noir
- https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/nra-backed-law-violates-the-first-amendm

Fine, it's a red herring posted in an article on a website that also allows alternative viewpoints.  Happy?

The idea that we're upholding the constitution through inaction on this issue is blatant propaganda.  It follows the NRA script of turning everything into a Slippery Slope to a fucking T.  Don't do this one thing, because later on, someone else might do something different.  Therefore, keep the status quo so gun manufacturers can continue to make huge profits we can maintain our freedom.

An article linked in the original article that I posted does mention that the ACLU was against the rule...

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/2/6/14522132/gun-control-disabilities-republicans-nra-obama

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2018, 07:43:20 PM »

He also upheld the position of the ACLU.  News flash, the ACLU doesn't like the Don (https://www.aclu.org/blog/executive-branch/people-v-donald-trump).

That link doesn't even mention that the ACLU stance on the issue, let alone claim that they are in agreement with Trump on the issue.  Maybe you were hoping I wouldn't actually read it?

Somehow I doubt Trump suddenly decided that he was a constitutional defender.  I'm not sure exactly why.  Maybe I should read your linked article again about all of his blatant violations to date?

The link was clearly a citation to the ACLU's position on Trump, not on their position on the proposed rule, which, as pointed out later, was in the original article that i responded to, had you read that link. 

Whether or not he is a constitutional defender is irrelevant.  I am all for upholding the constitution, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental.  I am not giving him a pass on the other issues, simply pointing out he happened to get lucky on this one.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

There's nothing unconstitutional about placing restrictions on who can buy guns.
Not what the article said - the unconstitutionality of the rule was the lack of due process afforded by the 4th amendment.  Surely you are not saying we should willfully ignore the 4th amendment of the constitution.  If you are advocating for subjective picking and choosing when to apply the constitution and when not to, then say that, at least you will be intellectually honest in your approach. 
Yeah, I read it.  And it's a total red herring.  If you think keeping guns from mentally unstable people is not primarily, secondarily, and tertiarily regarding the 2nd amendment, then I have a bridge to sell you.
 

Where is the bridge?  Having a bridge sounds like a great investment opportunity.  If in a prime location and you were willing to make standard reps/warranties, I could be interested.

Seriously though, just because one regulation was rejected due to legitimate constitutional issues, and I pointed that out to keep the dialogue here honest, does not mean that I am in favor of unrestricted gun ownership.  I am not the enemy here man.  Try not to see red every time someone says something you think is against your viewpoint.  Again, facts are facts, neither you nor I can change the facts.


I will say again, there are facts out there that one must check before making a knee-jerk reaction about something that person does not want to hear or does not agree with.  Reason is not an NRA shill. 
See:
- https://reason.com/blog/2016/07/07/black-lives-matter-and-so-do-their-gun-r
- https://reason.com/blog/2014/05/14/nra-launches-millennial-gun-series-noir
- https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/22/nra-backed-law-violates-the-first-amendm

Fine, it's a red herring posted in an article on a website that also allows alternative viewpoints.  Happy?

The idea that we're upholding the constitution through inaction on this issue is blatant propaganda.  It follows the NRA script of turning everything into a Slippery Slope to a fucking T.  Don't do this one thing, because later on, someone else might do something different.  Therefore, keep the status quo so gun manufacturers can continue to make huge profits we can maintain our freedom.

Each and every one of my posts have been about factual disconnects between other's posts and reality.  I did not once mention slippery slope.  I do think that we should uphold the constitution, which means we should not allow unconstitutional regulations just because they patch another hole we want addressed. 


Sorry the quotes got a little out of order on this one...I am not so great at making all of that code stuff work...


one piece at a time

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2018, 08:09:49 PM »
My question is if it’s not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue.
Other countries have mental health issues as well. But we don't have the shootings. Next excuse.

The interesting comparison is 1990 USA to 2018 USA. Both countries have quite a lot of guns, but only one has weekly mass shootings. Why?


TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2018, 08:10:35 PM »
Our population is spread out and condensed all at once. Remember the countries that everyone describes in Europe are like states here in the US. Guns are illegal in the cities New York and Chicago... But in Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska, and the big out west and rural states guns are a way of life. Here's where we hit a problem. I hunt and carry a concealed weapon with a permit. My handgun is a 5 shot revolver. At NO time in my life have I ever needed a gun with a capacity more than 6 rounds. Hunting? 1 shot or I don't take it. I have to restrict my pump guns etc to only hold 3 rounds to be legal and I only carry 3 rounds on my person. 15-30-50 round magazines and semi auto? never NEEDED it once.  The next problem is everyone is afraid that if they concede anything then they will lose everything. I am not a member of the NRA. I do not own any AR-15's or anything like them.
My question is where are the parents of this young man and what is making him think that this is acceptable? Finally why do we spread him all over the media giving him national and apparently international coverage? Had it been reported that a 19 year old male committed the crime and nothing else like race, religion, names, or anything been released, it might be a better approach.

This has nothing to do with parents.  The young man was just that an adult.  He was 19.  We need to stop making excuses for these people.  This kid made this decision on his own.  I am not saying his parents were good, bad, or other wise, but your kids will do what they are going to after about 17.  And it may not be reflective of what home life was like as a kid.

You guys obviously haven't actually done any research or been paying much attention.

Both of the shooter's parents are dead.  He is an orphan.

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2018, 08:22:36 PM »
I'm a CCW carrier and gun owner. I have had guns pulled on me twice in attempted robberies in my teenage years and I always knew, once old enough, I would legally carry a gun for protection.

One thing that I find baffling is how easy anyone can sell/buy a gun on the streets, wether a clean gun or not. For example, just today at work one of the managers sent a text message saying he's selling a 9mm gun. Just like that. A picture and a price. He already has a buyer and I'm absolutely sure neither one will care to check if selling/buying this gun is the right thing to do. For all the seller knows, the buyer is getting it just because, but could the buyer be getting it to cause harm on someone right away? This easy transaction of guns is ridiculous.

I have one idea which maybe you all could let me know if it makes sense. How about a gun ownership law?

For example take me, if I want to sell my legally bought gun, I can go to a gun store, police station, DMV, title bureau etc and walk up to the "Gun Counter" where I meet the buyer and I sell him the gun in front of a witness with a quick background check done. We both get copies of the notarized seller/buyer agreement and we both go on our ways. No registry is done but we both have prove that the gun exchanged hands legally.

What's it for? It ends my ownership of the gun and passes it to the next person. That person is now responsible for the safety of that gun. If the gun is stolen from his home, he pays a fine and his ownership is then cleared. This now becomes a stolen gun and whomever is caught with it faces automatic 2 years jail time.

In that same tone, if a person is found to have a gun without proof of legal purchase as I mentioned above, the gun is confiscated, a fine is given and if the person has a criminal record, warrant or drug/alcohol addiction history, legal action is taken.

Also, if a gun owned legally by a person is used in a murder by another person, the owner of the gun faces criminal charges for negligence.

This, in my opinion, places a great amount of responsibility on the gun owners and forces them to give a shit about them.  It also automatically places illegal gun owners in jail and gets them off the streets. 

I'm not sure if this even makes sense but I'm baffled by how relaxed the gun laws are in this country.

I could get behind some of these ideas.  I don't like the idea of fining the victim of a crime (if gun is stolen from one's home) or criminal charges if one's gun is used by another in a crime (at least not without more of a nexus to the crime).  But otherwise, these seem pretty sensible to me.

Maybe the gun exchange could occur on private property as well (same requirement re: paperwork, but less onerous and state-involved than going to a police station).

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2018, 08:30:37 PM »
I'm a CCW carrier and gun owner. I have had guns pulled on me twice in attempted robberies in my teenage years and I always knew, once old enough, I would legally carry a gun for protection.

One thing that I find baffling is how easy anyone can sell/buy a gun on the streets, wether a clean gun or not. For example, just today at work one of the managers sent a text message saying he's selling a 9mm gun. Just like that. A picture and a price. He already has a buyer and I'm absolutely sure neither one will care to check if selling/buying this gun is the right thing to do. For all the seller knows, the buyer is getting it just because, but could the buyer be getting it to cause harm on someone right away? This easy transaction of guns is ridiculous.

I have one idea which maybe you all could let me know if it makes sense. How about a gun ownership law?

For example take me, if I want to sell my legally bought gun, I can go to a gun store, police station, DMV, title bureau etc and walk up to the "Gun Counter" where I meet the buyer and I sell him the gun in front of a witness with a quick background check done. We both get copies of the notarized seller/buyer agreement and we both go on our ways. No registry is done but we both have prove that the gun exchanged hands legally.

What's it for? It ends my ownership of the gun and passes it to the next person. That person is now responsible for the safety of that gun. If the gun is stolen from his home, he pays a fine and his ownership is then cleared. This now becomes a stolen gun and whomever is caught with it faces automatic 2 years jail time.

In that same tone, if a person is found to have a gun without proof of legal purchase as I mentioned above, the gun is confiscated, a fine is given and if the person has a criminal record, warrant or drug/alcohol addiction history, legal action is taken.

Also, if a gun owned legally by a person is used in a murder by another person, the owner of the gun faces criminal charges for negligence.

This, in my opinion, places a great amount of responsibility on the gun owners and forces them to give a shit about them.  It also automatically places illegal gun owners in jail and gets them off the streets. 

I'm not sure if this even makes sense but I'm baffled by how relaxed the gun laws are in this country.
All good thoughts that I'm not against. None of that would stop what happened yesterday though.

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2018, 08:50:24 PM »
The reason this still happens in the US is because we're fine with it.  We're fine with it.  When it happens, it's a bummer, but it's not our kids, it's somebody else's kids... it's just kids on TV.  We're fine with it. 

Just curious if you're for banning alcohol and/or cars? Some innocent person dies from a drunk driver? Bummer. Not my kid. Just another day.

Seems easy to me to argue there are much more uses for guns in this world than there is alcohol.

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2018, 09:12:00 PM »
The reason this still happens in the US is because we're fine with it.  We're fine with it.  When it happens, it's a bummer, but it's not our kids, it's somebody else's kids... it's just kids on TV.  We're fine with it. 

Just curious if you're for banning alcohol and/or cars? Some innocent person dies from a drunk driver? Bummer. Not my kid. Just another day.

Seems easy to me to argue there are much more uses for guns in this world than there is alcohol.

There is a big difference here. Driving drunk, although insanely fucking stupid, is usually done not out of malice in trying to kill people. Mass shootings usually target innocent people who are not able to defend themselves with equal or stronger force.  That's why you don't see many (any?) mass shootings at police stations.

A drunk driver can cause an accident that kills a family and that is horrible. My sister died from a car accident with a person who was legally high on heroin back in '03, she was 15yo. The guy, who to this day - 15 years later - I still hate with every fiber in my body, didn't get high that morning with the idea of killing my sister. He did it cause he had a substance abuse problem and went to work high. That's a big difference.

You are trying to cancel out a problem by showing how a similar one isn't dealt in the same manner. Not sure if you're just looking to get a rouse out of people but around here common sense usually wins. Your example doesn't make sense.
99.9% of Americans don't by guns with the intent to kill people. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm pointing out double standards and tired of people cherry picking tragedies to push political agendas. I'm not trying to cancel out any problem. I've yet to see any solution that is going to stop somebody who wants to shoot up a school. My solution is tighter security at schools similar to banks and government buildings. Cowards attack the vulnerable.


zoltani

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2018, 09:18:41 PM »
There are unintended consequences of legislation. I mean the people that implemented the war on drugs sure were trying to do the right thing, but look at all the unintended consequences from that. How many people have died from that, how many lives ruined? Now we want to potentially create another black market for gangs and criminals to thrive under. There's always unintended consequences, and we don't actually know big things would be better or not. We think we know better, what will be right, but we don't.

driftwood

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2018, 01:44:51 AM »
Every culture contains different things that can be owned, or activities that can be done legally which lead to deaths of others (even in larger numbers than school shootings).  Each country gets to determine which one of those threats it chooses to try to control.   

Why are guns legal? I don't trust most people with a cell phone, let alone a gun.

Why is alcohol a legal drug? Because it's culturally accepted, and making it illegal didn't work... despite the large amount of deaths by DUI, assaults, domestic abuse done by those who are intoxicated. Combine it with any other risky activity and you greatly multiply your chance of a fatality.

Why is driving a personal vehicle legal? Look at how many people get killed by vehicle accidents.

Why are samurai swords legal?  Does anyone really need a sword? 

Why are knives legal?  (excluding kitchen, or tool versions like box cutters, utility knives, swiss army knives, Gerbers, Leathermans, etc)?  What use do I have of a knife designed to kill people?

Why is sugar and terrible food not only legal and available, but legal to market to CHILDREN?  Holy shit that stuff is killing folks left and right.

Why is tobacco legal?

The sad thing is if you try to eliminate or regulate any of these harmful things you'll run right into a wall of people standing up for their rights.  You can't use my tax dollars on public transportation!  I have a right to drive my car!  Even if I like to text while driving, and maybe after drinking!  I am pretty cynical about people as a whole and don't really let myself get riled up about their stupidity anymore.  Just look at the way our energy consumption is going... we like to look for alternate forms of energy, but it would be political suicide to try to tell people that we should probably eliminate TVs, microwaves, toasters, air conditioning, clothes dryers, etc.  You can't take away my right to consume energy!  Even if it leads to destroying the earth's ability to support human life.  I have my rights!

I like guns.  I also wouldn't mind if the US decided to take all private firearms and destroy them.  I'll find another hobby. I like knives, and hatchets, and axes (not sure why), and sledgehammers, and Oreos, and scotch, air conditioning, clothes dryers, and a variety of vehicles.  But really, I don't need any of those and can live just fine without them.