Author Topic: US School Shootings  (Read 25250 times)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #250 on: February 22, 2018, 06:46:29 AM »
Perhaps his followers need to do a better job of displaying his message to our youth and not their own messages.

This, to me, is the crux of it.

I've pretty much drifted away from big R Religion and spirituality, but I still read some philosophy, some of it rooted in the Christian tradition (<3 Pete Rollins, for one). The Christ story is overflowing with compassion. It's not so much overtly masculine, which is maybe some of the disconnect? It's (almost) always the case that when you start being more inclusive, people who were already privileged feel like they're losing something. There's a lot of zero-sum rhetoric that gets thrown around. Either way, Churches have their own internal politics and social order that's ostensibly rooted in Christian teachings, but at the end of the day it's just humans seeking power.

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #251 on: February 22, 2018, 07:41:44 AM »
Courage:
Quote
Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=ESV

How does this biblical quote square away with the purported need to own a weapon for self defense?  It would seem to me that purchasing a gun is a ready made decision not to do this.

simonsez

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #252 on: February 22, 2018, 09:44:21 AM »
Courage:
Quote
Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A27-36&version=ESV

How does this biblical quote square away with the purported need to own a weapon for self defense?  It would seem to me that purchasing a gun is a ready made decision not to do this.
Do we really have to inject the Bible into this discussion?  Sure, parts of it contain good advice, entertaining stories, and the history of how it came to be is interesting but anyone can take passages from (and this goes similarly for all philosophical/religious texts) it to appear like it applies to a modern situation.  Then what devolves are refutations of interpretation, blah blah Hebrew-Greek-Old English-modern English issues, passages stating something contrary and other inconsistencies. 

There is a feel of argument from authority fallacy when the Bible is brought up.  If the US was a "sharia law" Christian country then the Bible would be a legitimate source.  This is not the case (hey! modus tollens!).

OurTown

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #253 on: February 22, 2018, 10:30:11 AM »
By my recollection, guns had not been invented yet in Bible times.

Glenstache

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #254 on: February 22, 2018, 10:47:38 AM »
By my recollection, guns had not been invented yet in Bible times.
Everyone knows that Jesus was a big fan of concealed carry. He talked about it just before he wrote the US Constitution and petted a dinosaur. /s

I guess this is only semi-snark given the exhibits at the Creation Museum:
https://creationmuseum.org/dinosaurs-dragons/

But yes, the morality of the New Testament clearly calls on people to deescalate violence. Beyond that, I think we can leave the Bible and other religious texts out of this.

TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #255 on: February 22, 2018, 11:51:36 AM »
Quote
But to even admit our terror is to be reduced,
because we don’t have a model of masculinity that allows
for fear or grief or tenderness or the day-to-day sadness
that sometimes overtakes us all.

You guys are probably right, shouldn't have brought it up.

My main point was the article posted and something that stuck out to me (the lack of "appropriate" ( <- not quite the right word) models for males to follow in our society.

Moving on.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #256 on: February 22, 2018, 01:47:33 PM »
There are plenty of smart, well-reasoned people here.

Because of that I want to throw this out there:

Is there any reason that we cannot have a more formal militia, that includes all persons 18 and above (male and female), and you are inherently included in the militia unless something excludes you from it. 

Examples of reasons for exclusions from the "listed militia": 
1. Felony conviction for violent crimes (no expiration)
2. Felony conviction for non-violent crimes, 20-year expiration (or whatever arbitrary expiry date)
3. Mental health instability with the right to immediate appeal (once "convicted" expires 10 years after licensed professional gives the OK on the original "charge")
4. Domestic violence accusation with immediate right to appeal (10 year expiration)
5. Restraining order (possibly no expiration)

Blah, blah blah...

Then it is just a matter of checking to see if TexasRunner with TxDL Number 12345678 and social security XXX-XX-1234 is on the list.  Not on the list, no sale.

Maintaining the list would also allow for a nationwide database of guns and legal owners (which I'm OK with as we have the 2nd amendment and several states have their own constitutions preventing a Aussie style confiscation), ability to track who steals guns and when, easily identify straw purchases, possibly a list of License-To-Carry holders and plenty of reason for other nations to not want to even think about invading the US of A.

It would maintain the "don't F with us, federal government" attitude that was originally placed in the 2nd amendment, and actually make it stronger.

I would also be open to having 'tiers' within the militia, class A (heavily investigated) can have any weapons, class B can have "assualt weapons", class C can have handguns and small caliper rifles, class D can have small caliper rifles only...

Spitballing here. but honestly if this were combined with nation-wide License-To-Carry, and another amendment that "codified" the militia, I could actually see something like this OK'd by gun owners (and the NRA).

Thoughts?

I've thought for a long time we could solve a whole heap of problems (and probably introduce loads more) by going down a mandatory service requirement road like Germany or Israel.  This could be tied into it, take the last two years of high school and revamp it totally, four electives (for those wanting something closer to what we have now, to focus on whatever future college-style post high school future), but the remainder dedicated to physical activity, financial education, cooking, and a vocation (be it soldier/welder/carpenter/cosmetology/whatever).  Essentially draft everyone into military service at 16 until age 18.  It could have a high degree of freedom to allow people to focus on certain things, but have certain minimums with regard to other activities.  So you don't want to be an expert sniper?  Fine, but you have to pass this basic markmanship test, so that when your gang has you do a drive by, at least you're less likely to kill extra folks.

Probably keep us out of a lot more conflict if everyone's teenager is off at basic when something happens too.

TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #257 on: March 03, 2018, 03:49:09 PM »
/\
Interesting Idea.  I actually like Germany's model too.  If there were no "college exemption" and MD's had to put their name on a medical reason not to serve, it would also pull in all socioeconomic classes.  Hopefully that would keep us out of these continuous illegal wars that both parties seem perfectly OK with...  :/


Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms as listed in the Texas Constitution?  See below:

Quote
Sec. 23.  RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS; REGULATION OF WEARING OF ARMS.  Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CN/htm/CN.1.htm

I think it would be an excellent middle ground that removes the 2A 'roadblock' towards finding solutions.  If people's end goal is the complete removal of large 'classes' of firearms (IE semi-automatic) from society, you would probably hate it.  But the "view to prevent crime" part is pretty interesting regarding regulation. 

Gin1984

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #258 on: March 03, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »
So, I know we can't talk about masculinity as part of the issue.

But I'd still like to leave this here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/opinion/boys-violence-shootings-guns.html
Why not?   The average shooter is male.  And often has a domestic violence history.  Should we not talk about that either?

Kris

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #259 on: March 03, 2018, 07:05:55 PM »
So, I know we can't talk about masculinity as part of the issue.

But I'd still like to leave this here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/opinion/boys-violence-shootings-guns.html
Why not?   The average shooter is male.  And often has a domestic violence history.  Should we not talk about that either?

Give it a shot, and see how well it goes.

TexasRunner

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #260 on: March 03, 2018, 07:13:18 PM »
Honestly I would be fine with discussing it, every consideration needs to be part of a solution.

But, yes, I see how that could *potentially* be grounds for some heavy-handed modding (though they do a great job).  We'll just have to be sure to keep it civil and avoid sweeping generalizations...