Author Topic: US School Shootings  (Read 15626 times)

Zola.

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US School Shootings
« on: February 15, 2018, 02:50:46 AM »
Not looking to offend or annoy anyone, but as a UK citizen I find it beyond baffling that the US government does precious little to stop the scourge of school shootings. So many families destroyed.

The right to bear arms seems a total nonsense and it is clearly abused. Why does the NRA have such a grip on the government?

Where do you stand on the issue?

This sort of regular extreme violence happens nowhere else on earth in the developed world. Time for America to do something!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 03:38:41 AM »
Why? Money. The NRA is a marketing division of gun manufacturers. The 2nd amendment is their ploy to get people to buy more guns or freedom as they spin it. More killings, better for business as gun sales increase from the fear that guns will be taken. Itís always about money and dead people/children are as irrelevant as all the people dead from cigarette induced cancer. Nothing gets in the way of profits and the rich getting richer. Nothing.

davisgang90

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 03:49:45 AM »
The 2nd amendment isn't a "ploy" or "total nonsense".  It is the law of the land in the US.  The US was founded on strong protections for gun ownership.

If you want to further limit gun ownership you need to amend the constitution.

In the meantime, why don't we protect schools the way we protect banks and government buildings?

big_owl

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 04:05:09 AM »
Not looking to offend or annoy anyone,

LOL

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 04:30:59 AM »
The 2nd amendment isn't a "ploy" or "total nonsense".  It is the law of the land in the US.  The US was founded on strong protections for gun ownership.

If you want to further limit gun ownership you need to amend the constitution.

In the meantime, why don't we protect schools the way we protect banks and government buildings?

The school in FL had police out front. They were protected like banks. Didnít do much against a semi-automatic. The NRA exploit the 2nd Amendment, written when people had muskets. Donít. Stop. You donít need your stupid guns, nobody needs them. And you figure out how to stop all these people being killed by guns. And what a luxury it must be to believe in the 2nd amendment when youíre not the one mourning a dead child.

Imma

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 04:37:21 AM »
. Itís always about money and dead people/children are as irrelevant as all the people dead from cigarette induced cancer. Nothing gets in the way of profits and the rich getting richer. Nothing.

Just a side note, but in my country (the Netherlands) they're preparing a criminal case (attempted murder) against the tobacco industry for promoting a product they knew was more deadly then they were admitting it was. It seems certain cigarettes were designed on purpose in a way that deceived the machines measuring toxins in the smoke.

I am just baffled by the rates of gun violence in the US. And to think we only hear about the really bad shootings in Europe. The argument that when you limit gun ownership, the bad guys will have guns but the good guys won't, just totally makes no sense to me. In my country gun ownership by the public is extremely restricted. Of course, organized crime will have access to guns and every once in a drug lord gets shot. But even in circles of organized crime, shootings are fairly rare. Everyday minor criminals, like robbers, don't carry guns. 250 people a year get killed in this country of 17 million inhabitants. Most of those do not die from gun violence.

I get that it's not as simple as "restricting gun ownership" as the Constitution needs to be changed. But the Constitution of a country is / should be a living document that reflects the changing values of the people. The constitution was written in a very different age when the federal government had very limited powers and slavery was legal. Societies change and so should constitutions.

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 04:37:39 AM »
The 2nd amendment isn't a "ploy" or "total nonsense".  It is the law of the land in the US.  The US was founded on strong protections for gun ownership.

If you want to further limit gun ownership you need to amend the constitution.

In the meantime, why don't we protect schools the way we protect banks and government buildings?
The US was founded on slavery too.

Also: second Amendment - it was added to the Constitution, it can be taken out of the Constitution.

It's difficult to look objectively at a culture that has surrounded one from birth.  Those of us looking in at the USA from the outside are totally bewildered that a minority interest group funded by a small manufacturing industry has cowed US politicians into being the abject lackeys of the mass murder lobbyists.

Capt j-rod

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 04:59:26 AM »
Our population is spread out and condensed all at once. Remember the countries that everyone describes in Europe are like states here in the US. Guns are illegal in the cities New York and Chicago... But in Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska, and the big out west and rural states guns are a way of life. Here's where we hit a problem. I hunt and carry a concealed weapon with a permit. My handgun is a 5 shot revolver. At NO time in my life have I ever needed a gun with a capacity more than 6 rounds. Hunting? 1 shot or I don't take it. I have to restrict my pump guns etc to only hold 3 rounds to be legal and I only carry 3 rounds on my person. 15-30-50 round magazines and semi auto? never NEEDED it once.  The next problem is everyone is afraid that if they concede anything then they will lose everything. I am not a member of the NRA. I do not own any AR-15's or anything like them.
My question is where are the parents of this young man and what is making him think that this is acceptable? Finally why do we spread him all over the media giving him national and apparently international coverage? Had it been reported that a 19 year old male committed the crime and nothing else like race, religion, names, or anything been released, it might be a better approach.

rockeTree

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 05:04:02 AM »
I’ve worked in banks and government buildings and my kid has to badge into his school past a cop but they don’t pat him or me down or run us through airport scanners every day. If I owned a gun and stuck it in my tote bag I doubt I would be stopped. Not having 400m guns sloshing around out there would really help.


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vivian

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 05:07:35 AM »
The issue is not just the NRA. There is also a subculture in the US that fetishizes guns and gun ownership. You don’t have an entire arsenal in your house or closet full of ammunition because you’re worried about someone breaking in. I was at someone ‘s house and a friend came in to show off all these fancy (deadly) attachments to his AR rifle. Everyone at the party started ohhing and awing over it.


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tipster350

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 06:43:57 AM »
Not looking to offend or annoy anyone, but as a UK citizen I find it beyond baffling that the US government does precious little to stop the scourge of school shootings. So many families destroyed.

The right to bear arms seems a total nonsense and it is clearly abused. Why does the NRA have such a grip on the government?

Where do you stand on the issue?

This sort of regular extreme violence happens nowhere else on earth in the developed world. Time for America to do something!

I am a US citizen and I am as baffled as you are about how this is okay. Please understand that we are not all ignorant savages. I can answer why the NRA has a grip on the government. The Republicans are all bought and paid for by the NRA.

dycker1978

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 06:46:04 AM »
Our population is spread out and condensed all at once. Remember the countries that everyone describes in Europe are like states here in the US. Guns are illegal in the cities New York and Chicago... But in Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska, and the big out west and rural states guns are a way of life. Here's where we hit a problem. I hunt and carry a concealed weapon with a permit. My handgun is a 5 shot revolver. At NO time in my life have I ever needed a gun with a capacity more than 6 rounds. Hunting? 1 shot or I don't take it. I have to restrict my pump guns etc to only hold 3 rounds to be legal and I only carry 3 rounds on my person. 15-30-50 round magazines and semi auto? never NEEDED it once.  The next problem is everyone is afraid that if they concede anything then they will lose everything. I am not a member of the NRA. I do not own any AR-15's or anything like them.
My question is where are the parents of this young man and what is making him think that this is acceptable? Finally why do we spread him all over the media giving him national and apparently international coverage? Had it been reported that a 19 year old male committed the crime and nothing else like race, religion, names, or anything been released, it might be a better approach.

This has nothing to do with parents.  The young man was just that an adult.  He was 19.  We need to stop making excuses for these people.  This kid made this decision on his own.  I am not saying his parents were good, bad, or other wise, but your kids will do what they are going to after about 17.  And it may not be reflective of what home life was like as a kid.

Bateaux

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2018, 06:48:38 AM »
Mass shootings are the price that is paid for freedom.

dycker1978

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 06:54:50 AM »
Mass shootings are the price that is paid for freedom.

I completely disagree, although this may have been said tongue in cheek.  I live in Canada, and have very few mass shootings, but Canada is a very free country.

NV Teacher

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 07:03:52 AM »
My question is if itís not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue. 

FI Curious

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 07:10:25 AM »
Not looking to offend or annoy anyone, but as a UK citizen I find it beyond baffling that the US government does precious little to stop the scourge of school shootings. So many families destroyed.

The right to bear arms seems a total nonsense and it is clearly abused. Why does the NRA have such a grip on the government?

Where do you stand on the issue?

This sort of regular extreme violence happens nowhere else on earth in the developed world. Time for America to do something!

I agree with you and there are many others who do too.  Australia was able to drastically cut the number of incidents by tightly restricting gun ownership.  Yes the NRA does have such a grip on the government.  My parents are immigrants from Europe and there are many times I wish they had never left.  There is a real imbalance in our democracy because of the fact that the Senate maintains two representatives from each state whether that state has a population of 50 million or 1. 

In 2014 the supreme court made the decision to strike down limits on political contributions.  So essentially, anyone with money has the unlimited ability to influence our legislators.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:33:24 AM by FI Curious »

TheContinentalOp

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2018, 07:35:03 AM »
Quote
The NRA exploit the 2nd Amendment, written when people had muskets.

At the time the 2nd Amendment was written, it was legal for private individuals to own armed merchant-ships with enough firepower to level a city.

Zola.

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2018, 07:35:31 AM »
I just find the whole thing really sad and depressing, hate seeing it, its almost occurring so often that its no longer shocking, and people are being desensitised to it.

Trump and co blaming it on mental health is just an easy excuse.

There is no need for a full automatic rifle to be in anyones possession.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 07:51:30 AM »
Our population is spread out and condensed all at once. Remember the countries that everyone describes in Europe are like states here in the US. Guns are illegal in the cities New York and Chicago... But in Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska, and the big out west and rural states guns are a way of life. Here's where we hit a problem. I hunt and carry a concealed weapon with a permit. My handgun is a 5 shot revolver. At NO time in my life have I ever needed a gun with a capacity more than 6 rounds. Hunting? 1 shot or I don't take it. I have to restrict my pump guns etc to only hold 3 rounds to be legal and I only carry 3 rounds on my person. 15-30-50 round magazines and semi auto? never NEEDED it once.  The next problem is everyone is afraid that if they concede anything then they will lose everything. I am not a member of the NRA. I do not own any AR-15's or anything like them.
My question is where are the parents of this young man and what is making him think that this is acceptable? Finally why do we spread him all over the media giving him national and apparently international coverage? Had it been reported that a 19 year old male committed the crime and nothing else like race, religion, names, or anything been released, it might be a better approach.

To answer your question, they're dead.

But yes, I've slowly been persuaded that capacity restrictions are the single most effective way to curtail mass shooting deaths. It plays out in the statistics we have on mass shooting incidents. Fewer people die when they fight back (though barricading is still the safest option if you can't escape), and fighting back is most effective when the weapon in the shooter's hand runs out of ammunition.

L2

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 07:52:00 AM »
I just find the whole thing really sad and depressing, hate seeing it, its almost occurring so often that its no longer shocking, and people are being desensitised to it.

Trump and co blaming it on mental health is just an easy excuse.

There is no need for a full automatic rifle to be in anyones possession.
As a proud supporter of the 2nd amendment, I don't disagree with your last sentence. The NRA isnt' as evil as the left tries to make them out to be. THey too are against bump-stocks (used in Las Vegas shooting) that makes a semi-auto "act" as a full auto. However,  the ownership of a fully-auto gun is heavily regulated and it is illegal for private citizens to own a fully-auto made after 1986. A semi-auto gun was used yesterday. Means one shot per trigger pull. Not a full-auto where holding down the trigger shoots off bullets until the clip runs out. Unfortunately, it seems those who have the least understanding of guns and their laws are the ones who use the easy excuse that banning them is going to stop this. Just like heavy penalties of use/creating/distribution of drugs and murdering people stops people from using/creating/distributing drugs and murdering people.

Not specifically calling you out, but I find it interesting that it takes a school shooting for the gun right opposers to come out of the woodwork. Nobody bats an eye when police officers are killed in the line of duty or the hundreds each and every day who are victims of gun violence in the inner cities. But gosh darnit, they're going to push that political agenda when the opportunity presents itself! Nobody cares about the number of innocent people killed due to alcohol and/or car related deaths every year.

It's almost like people who commit these atrocities have no regard for the law. Simply banning guns is lazy and will not work.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:56:20 AM by L2 »

MasterStache

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 08:10:22 AM »
I just find the whole thing really sad and depressing, hate seeing it, its almost occurring so often that its no longer shocking, and people are being desensitised to it.

Trump and co blaming it on mental health is just an easy excuse.

There is no need for a full automatic rifle to be in anyones possession.
....but I find it interesting that it takes a school shooting for the gun right opposers to come out of the woodwork.

Nobody bats an eye when police officers are killed in the line of duty or the hundreds each and every day who are victims of gun violence in the inner cities. But gosh darnit, they're going to push that political agenda when the opportunity presents itself! Nobody cares about the number of innocent people killed due to alcohol and/or car related deaths every year.

WOW! Straw-man much?

Quote
It's almost like people who commit these atrocities have no regard for the law. Simply banning guns is lazy and will not work.

Excellent justification for having precisely no laws. I mean people will break them anyways, right?

DarkandStormy

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 08:12:20 AM »
It's almost like people who commit these atrocities have no regard for the law. Simply banning guns is lazy and will not work.

Ask literally every other Western/modern country how that's going.

Oh, what's that?  A s*** ton better than in America?  Cool.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 08:12:35 AM »
Its a pretty simple and impossible problem to resolve.

On one side you have many law-abiding gun owners, many who will say to provide schools with armed police to protect them, and this will help bring down the violence. And they are absolutely right.

On the other side, you have people who will argue that without guns at all, most crimes like these wont be committed, and they too are absolutely right.

So everyone stands there and looks at each other and nothing gets resolved.

Its not like you see people shooting up police stations or army barracks. The attackers aren't that stupid. And sadly, we actually have people who are against armed police in schools by saying, "Well, I don't think we should have guns in school" which just sounds so ignorant. The reality is that the schools have been shown to be very vulnerable to repeat attacks, yet there seems to be this notion that if you think things shouldn't be a certain way, then they wont be.

The truth is, there just isn't enough outrage to change anything. People just say, "man, that's horrible, I hope it doesn't happen at my child's school" and move on. There just isn't enough people angry enough for change to elect people to congress to change the amendment. That's just the simple fact. And you don't have to be at school to be at the receiving end of gun violence. I had a guy pull a 357 on me from his truck and point it right at my head. I was 19 at the time. Strangely I wasn't freaked out then and looking back at it sort of have this, "it was what it was" attitude. There just doesn't seem to be anything that will be done about it for the foreseeable future, so you just kind of accept it.

Now keep in mind, banning automatic/bump stock assault weapons, which I am fine with, wouldn't have changed what happened to me. I doubt those will ever go away. And I like guns too. I don't have a problem with people owning them.

The law does virtually nothing to stop someone who really wants to shoot you. So if you can't rely on the law for protection, it looks like you have only one option: get a gun to defend yourself. The problem is how strict the law is regarding what can be considered self-defense when shooting someone, but that is a whole other can of worms to be opened.

To those outside of this country: we're still very much like in the Wild West. Very little has changed. Just instead of riding horses we use cars now. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 08:25:02 AM »
Relevant:



At the end of the day people in the US have made a choice.  They prefer to have regular mass murders to even attempting any kind of gun control.  This is accomplished in many ways:

- Argue that it's a mental health issue.  Defund programs that help those with mental health.  Also do little/nothing to make it hard for people with mental health problems to get guns.
- Argue about the sanctity, inviolability, and relevance of the current interpretation of an amendment to the constitution made more than 200 years ago.
- Argue that criminals don't follow laws, therefore there's no point in having laws.
- Argue that guns don't kill that many people compared to *insert anything here*, so it's not a big deal.
- Argue that the problem isn't too many guns, it's that not enough people have guns.
- Argue that there's no point in trying to fix the problem because there are a lot of guns in the US now.

I'm probably missing a few, but that's the gist of it.


The folks on the side of gun advocacy should be rejoicing.  They've won.  Guns of most classes are virtually unregulated.  In most states you can buy them without a background check or even needing to provide ID.  Any attempt to increase regulation has been fought off and won.  You are now living in the paradise you wanted.  Give us a cheer.

L2

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 08:26:09 AM »
I just find the whole thing really sad and depressing, hate seeing it, its almost occurring so often that its no longer shocking, and people are being desensitised to it.

Trump and co blaming it on mental health is just an easy excuse.

There is no need for a full automatic rifle to be in anyones possession.
....but I find it interesting that it takes a school shooting for the gun right opposers to come out of the woodwork.

Nobody bats an eye when police officers are killed in the line of duty or the hundreds each and every day who are victims of gun violence in the inner cities. But gosh darnit, they're going to push that political agenda when the opportunity presents itself! Nobody cares about the number of innocent people killed due to alcohol and/or car related deaths every year.

WOW! Straw-man much?

Quote
It's almost like people who commit these atrocities have no regard for the law. Simply banning guns is lazy and will not work.

Excellent justification for having precisely no laws. I mean people will break them anyways, right?
Great rebuttal and pretty expected. Nowhere did I say there should be no laws. I'm not just naive enough to think that more laws = less horrible people doing less horrible things.

L2

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 08:28:24 AM »
Relevant:



At the end of the day people in the US have made a choice.  They prefer to have regular mass murders to even attempting any kind of gun control.

You have no clue what you're talking about and your image is most certainly not relevant. There are numerous examples of law-abiding concealed carry citizens have saved lives and it is impossible to know gauge how many shootings open carrying has stopped. Guns are not allowed on school grounds, concealed or not. In nowhere in the US is a private citizen allowed to pull a gun on an innocent person.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:31:18 AM by L2 »

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 08:38:30 AM »
Lets all be real though, guns don't get up and walk around on their own and kill people.

Roughly 10,500 people die a year in the US from drunk driving. Many of those who died weren't the ones who were drunk. Yet this country seems to tolerate it because you pretty much get your wrists slapped if you are caught drinking and driving and haven't hurt anyone. So the habit persists, and eventually people get hurt and killed.

And now even terrorists are using cars to kill people.

We could ban cars, but does that seem reasonable? No.

There are valid reasons for owning some guns. I hate hunting and don't respect the vast majority of 'hunters' I see. But many of them are law abiding citizens. I think you are going to have a real struggle prying their guns from their hands, after all, their Dads did it. Their Grandpa's did it. And by golly, they will show their sons how to do it.

And then there are collectors, store owners, manufacturers, etc etc. The economy in the US would be turned on its head if they all couldn't make money off of the buying and selling of guns too, so good luck with that.

former player

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 08:39:36 AM »
In nowhere in the US is a private citizen allowed to pull a gun on an innocent person.
Trayvon Martin?

former player

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 08:44:10 AM »
Lets all be real though, guns don't get up and walk around on their own and kill people.

Roughly 10,500 people die a year in the US from drunk driving. Many of those who died weren't the ones who were drunk. Yet this country seems to tolerate it because you pretty much get your wrists slapped if you are caught drinking and driving and haven't hurt anyone. So the habit persists, and eventually people get hurt and killed.

And now even terrorists are using cars to kill people.

We could ban cars, but does that seem reasonable? No.

There are valid reasons for owning some guns. I hate hunting and don't respect the vast majority of 'hunters' I see. But many of them are law abiding citizens. I think you are going to have a real struggle prying their guns from their hands, after all, their Dads did it. Their Grandpa's did it. And by golly, they will show their sons how to do it.

And then there are collectors, store owners, manufacturers, etc etc. The economy in the US would be turned on its head if they all couldn't make money off of the buying and selling of guns too, so good luck with that.
None of the arguments for legalised gun ownership apply to semi-automatics, to bump stocks or to selling guns to the mentally unstable.

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 08:45:36 AM »
In nowhere in the US is a private citizen allowed to pull a gun on an innocent person.
Trayvon Martin?

He wasn't a person, he was black.  And wearing a threatening hoodie.  While brandishing Skittles.

Dabnasty

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 08:49:22 AM »
Every time a gun control thread pops up lots of people join in with their opinions and insults of those they disagree with little real data to back them up. After a while the people who really only care enough to shout and get worked up about it will disappear and a sparse few will continue the conversation by getting into the details and actually use data to back up their assertions (the insults persist, but to a lesser extent.

Anyone interested in actually learning something should find an old gun control thread and skip forward 5-10 pages. If you want to have an actual conversation you'll have to wait until the angry people get tired of shouting here.

L2

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 08:52:12 AM »
In nowhere in the US is a private citizen allowed to pull a gun on an innocent person.
Trayvon Martin?
Pretty sure the court deemed that Martin beating Zimmerman's ass did not make him innocent.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 08:52:59 AM »
Quote
Every time a gun control thread pops up lots of people join in with their opinions and insults of those they disagree with little real data to back them up. After a while the people who really only care enough to shout and get worked up about it will disappear and a sparse few will continue the conversation by getting into the details and actually use data to back up their assertions (the insults persist, but to a lesser extent.

Anyone interested in actually learning something should find an old gun control thread and skip forward 5-10 pages. If you want to have an actual conversation you'll have to wait until the angry people get tired of shouting here.

Probably true, but the fact remains that there just isn't enough outrage from these events to force politicians to make the change. And politicians aren't going to risk their careers going against the grain.

Just too many people are okay with how things are.

ingrownstudentloans

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 08:56:22 AM »
... the 2nd Amendment, written when people had muskets. Don’t. Stop. ...

EDITED TO ADD: Inferring that you mean ONLY muskets to the exclusion of other types of guns that "shoot fast and looks scary" (and leaving aside pistols as I am sure you meant to include those as well)...

Actually, there were other guns in existence at the time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) Key dates there are 1722 and 1777.

The Bill of Rights was drafted in 1789 and ratified in 1791 (http://www.billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/)

So let me finish your quote for you
... Don’t. Stop. ...
. Believing incorrect facts.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:01:15 AM by ingrownstudentloans »

Jouer

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 08:57:09 AM »
Our population is spread out and condensed all at once. Remember the countries that everyone describes in Europe are like states here in the US. Guns are illegal in the cities New York and Chicago... But in Wyoming, Colorado, Alaska, and the big out west and rural states guns are a way of life. Here's where we hit a problem. I hunt and carry a concealed weapon with a permit. My handgun is a 5 shot revolver. At NO time in my life have I ever needed a gun with a capacity more than 6 rounds. Hunting? 1 shot or I don't take it. I have to restrict my pump guns etc to only hold 3 rounds to be legal and I only carry 3 rounds on my person. 15-30-50 round magazines and semi auto? never NEEDED it once.  The next problem is everyone is afraid that if they concede anything then they will lose everything. I am not a member of the NRA. I do not own any AR-15's or anything like them.
My question is where are the parents of this young man and what is making him think that this is acceptable? Finally why do we spread him all over the media giving him national and apparently international coverage? Had it been reported that a 19 year old male committed the crime and nothing else like race, religion, names, or anything been released, it might be a better approach.

Everything you describe here sounds like Canada. Well, except for the auto-weapons. We have lots of hunting rifles and such in Canada as well. We don't allow the automatic weapons....no one is coming for our hunting rifles. And shock the world: much lower rates of mass shootings.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 08:58:28 AM »
For those outside the US reading all these back and forth posts, this is why its such a paralyzing issue here in the US. Both sides have their heels firmly in the ground. Right now there are more who want guns and not enough who don't.

So that's why we have so many guns. Its what the majority wants.

Jouer

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 08:59:43 AM »
My question is if itís not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue.
Other countries have mental health issues as well. But we don't have the shootings. Next excuse.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 09:02:56 AM »
You have no clue what you're talking about and your image is most certainly not relevant. There are numerous examples of law-abiding concealed carry citizens have saved lives and it is impossible to know gauge how many shootings open carrying has stopped.

You make a good point - the more "bad guys" there are with guns, the more interactions they will have with "good guys" who can stop them. So more bad guys with guns = more P.R. wins for the NRA! I mean, how often do you hear about a good British dude with a gun stopping a bad British dude with a gun? Very infrequently, because the UK has super-low rates of gun crime! I just wish everyone would stop paying so much attention to all the children who get murdered at their schools. That's just collateral damage and very bad P.R. for guns. Guns = FREEDOM! 2nd Amendment 4evah!

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 09:04:48 AM »
In nowhere in the US is a private citizen allowed to pull a gun on an innocent person.
Trayvon Martin?
Pretty sure the court deemed that Martin beating Zimmerman's ass did not make him innocent.

True.  Self defense is only an excuse if you stalk someone then lose a fight you start.  (Helps if you're not black too).

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 09:05:37 AM »
My question is if itís not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue.
Other countries have mental health issues as well. But we don't have the shootings. Next excuse.

Yeah I would say its more of a cultural thing.

Then again, Mexico is pretty violent and they flat out ban guns there.

If there weren't any guns, people would be using knives, bats, swords, who knows what else. There would still be killings, just not mass shootings.

People are people, no matter where they are from. Mankind is a violent species. Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise. Pick up any history book and half of it will focus on who was at war with who.

Jouer

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 09:08:08 AM »
My question is if itís not more of a mental health issue than a gun issue.
Other countries have mental health issues as well. But we don't have the shootings. Next excuse.

Yeah I would say its more of a cultural thing.

Then again, Mexico is pretty violent and they flat out ban guns there.

If there weren't any guns, people would be using knives, bats, swords, who knows what else. There would still be killings, just not mass shootings.

People are people, no matter where they are from. Mankind is a violent species. Don't kid yourself thinking otherwise. Pick up any history book and half of it will focus on who was at war with who.

Excellent. Going from mass shootings to knifings would be great progress. Implement the initiative immediately!

DarkandStormy

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2018, 09:08:19 AM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

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Extensive reviews of the research by the Harvard School of Public Healthís Injury Control Research Center suggest the answer is pretty simple: The US is an outlier on gun violence because it has way more guns than other developed nations.

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America has 4.4 percent of the worldís population, but almost half of the civilian-owned guns around the world

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In December 2012, a gunman walked into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, and killed 20 children, six adults, and himself. Since then, there have been at least 1,606 mass shootings, with at least 1,829 people killed and 6,447 wounded as of February 2018.

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On average, there is more than one mass shooting for each day in America

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ďWithin the United States, a wide array of empirical evidence indicates that more guns in a community leads to more homicide,Ē David Hemenway, the Harvard Injury Control Research Centerís director, wrote in Private Guns, Public Health.

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Itís not just the US: Developed countries with more guns also have more gun deaths

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It would be one thing if the US happened to have more crime than other nations, but the existing data shows that not to be the case. America is only an outlier when it comes to homicides and, specifically, gun violence, according to data from Jeffrey Swanson at Duke University.

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When economist Richard Florida took a look at gun deaths and other social indicators, he found that higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness didnít correlate with more gun deaths. But he did find one telling correlation: States with tighter gun control laws have fewer gun-related deaths.

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When countries reduced access to guns, they saw a drop in the number of firearm suicides. The data above, taken from a study by Australian researchers, shows that suicides dropped dramatically after the Australian government set up a gun buyback program that reduced the number of firearms in the country by about one-fifth.

The Australian study found that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides, and a 74 percent drop in gun suicides.

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Researchers looked at federal data for firearm ownership and homicides of police officers across the US over 15 years. They found that states with more gun ownership had more cops killed in homicides: Every 10 percent increase in firearm ownership correlated with 10 additional officers killed in homicides over the 15-year study period.

The answer is so strikingly obvious that to believe anything else is to believe a falsehood.  Period.

Dabnasty

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2018, 09:10:14 AM »
For those outside the US reading all these back and forth posts, this is why its such a paralyzing issue here in the US. Both sides have their heels firmly in the ground. Right now there are more who want guns and not enough who don't.

So that's why we have so many guns. Its what the majority wants.

More who want guns? I suppose that's true if you are referring to a total ban, but I assume you mean a minority want stricter controls. In terms of limits to what we can own it's actually close to an even split. In terms of stricter requirements for purchase, a majority (60% according to Gallup polls Oct. 2017) is in favor.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

OurTown

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 09:10:37 AM »
How about requiring liability insurance for legal gun ownership?  And requiring an equivalent to "uninsured motorist" from automotive liability, a supplemental uninsured shooter pool?  And taxing the shit out of ammo?  And requiring licensing, registration, and safety training?

Simply put, if you monetize the risk you change the conversation.  Firearms are an inherently dangerous instrumentality.  If I want to own one, I should pay for the inherent risk.

GuitarStv

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2018, 09:13:15 AM »
Then again, Mexico is pretty violent and they flat out ban guns there.

Yep, they sure "ban guns".  Other than semi-automatic hand guns, revolvers, shotguns, triple barrel shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, etc.  Pretty harsh gun control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Mexico#Type_of_firearms_permitted

MonkeyJenga

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2018, 09:14:40 AM »
For those outside the US reading all these back and forth posts, this is why its such a paralyzing issue here in the US. Both sides have their heels firmly in the ground. Right now there are more who want guns and not enough who don't.

So that's why we have so many guns. Its what the majority wants.

This is not a question of yes all guns or no guns at all. Plenty of gun owners support sane protections, like background checks and gun safety classes.

The NRA leadership is totally disconnected from what their members want. They are the ones with money and lobbyists, unfortunately.

former player

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2018, 09:18:32 AM »
Then again, Mexico is pretty violent and they flat out ban guns there.

Yep, they sure "ban guns".  Other than semi-automatic hand guns, revolvers, shotguns, triple barrel shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, etc.  Pretty harsh gun control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Mexico#Type_of_firearms_permitted
Mexico is violent because people in the USA are paying for it to be so, through their multi-billion demand for illegal drugs.  Mexico violence is a USA export.

StarBright

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2018, 09:23:33 AM »
For those outside the US reading all these back and forth posts, this is why its such a paralyzing issue here in the US. Both sides have their heels firmly in the ground. Right now there are more who want guns and not enough who don't.

So that's why we have so many guns. Its what the majority wants.

I don't usually pop in on gun threads - but the majority doesn't seem to actually want to own guns. A 2016 survey showed only 36% of Americans owned/lived in a house with a gun owner.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/29/american-gun-ownership-is-now-at-a-30-year-low/?utm_term=.89cd8798d61f

In general, fewer people in the US have been buying guns for decades, and that is with better access than 20 years ago.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:25:54 AM by StarBright »

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2018, 09:24:25 AM »
Quote
This is not a question of yes all guns or no guns at all. Plenty of gun owners support sane protections, like background checks and gun safety classes.

The NRA leadership is totally disconnected from what their members want. They are the ones with money and lobbyists, unfortunately.

Well then I have to ask: What the heck are all these people members of a party where the leadership doesn't represent them? Don't the leaders get elected by the members? (I honestly don't know). Whatever the case, there isn't enough outrage to change their stance.

KTG

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Re: US School Shootings
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2018, 09:27:25 AM »
Quote
I don't usually pop in on gun threads - but the majority doesn't seem to actually want to own guns. A 2016 survey showed only 36% of Americans owned/lived in a house with a gun owner.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/29/american-gun-ownership-is-now-at-a-30-year-low/?utm_term=.89cd8798d61f

In general, fewer people in the US have been buying guns for decades, and that is with better access than 20 years ago.

They may not own guns, but they obviously support the ownership of guns or not care.

Look, its simple math. if people were outraged enough by all this, laws would be changed. There are not enough outraged people to do so.