Poll

US Poll...who are you voting for?

Biden
119 (73%)
Trump
13 (8%)
Third party
23 (14.1%)
Not voting
8 (4.9%)

Total Members Voted: 163

Author Topic: US Poll....who are you voting for?  (Read 13871 times)

dang1

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2024, 08:20:24 PM »

.. I see folks on social media around here saying they're unwilling to use public transit because it's not as safe as it used to be. I ride the trains at least weekly and..

"primarily safety and security concerns that are keeping people from riding BART, with only 17% saying they feel safe on the trains and only 16% describing the transit system as being clean."
https://www.kron4.com/news/why-arent-people-riding-bart-hint-its-not-remote-work/

"People avoid specific transit routes or bus stops, use them only during daytime, or do not use transit at all if they believe that they may be harassed or victimized"
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/23t2q2gc

.. Show me the data...

"Transit crime rates grew in several large cities in recent years even as ridership declined"
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/fta-transit-crime-resources/705829/

seattlecyclone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2024, 10:31:28 PM »

.. I see folks on social media around here saying they're unwilling to use public transit because it's not as safe as it used to be. I ride the trains at least weekly and..

"primarily safety and security concerns that are keeping people from riding BART, with only 17% saying they feel safe on the trains and only 16% describing the transit system as being clean."
https://www.kron4.com/news/why-arent-people-riding-bart-hint-its-not-remote-work/

"People avoid specific transit routes or bus stops, use them only during daytime, or do not use transit at all if they believe that they may be harassed or victimized"
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/23t2q2gc

.. Show me the data...

"Transit crime rates grew in several large cities in recent years even as ridership declined"
https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/fta-transit-crime-resources/705829/


Cool. Number went up. Was it high to start with? How does your likelihood of being assaulted on the train compare to your likelihood of getting injured in your car? This federal data set suggests that while assaults have indeed increased, the average transit vehicle is more likely to catch on fire than see an assault (2,036 fires in 2022 compared to 1,820 assaults—490 assaults against transit workers and 1,330 other assaults).

dang1

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2024, 10:51:20 PM »
well, anyway, bottom line - people are choosing cars over transit, transit use declining

Cranky

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #153 on: February 05, 2024, 04:38:06 AM »
increasingly concerned about street crime, paying more attention to politicians who address it.

Poverty is a huge driver of street crime. I am paying attention to politicians who genuinely attempt to address that, rather than “tough on crime” rhetoric.
So is.lack of law enforcement, combined with lax prosecution. Many steal far beyond covering basic needs, they're doing it to create wealth. They want the pro athlete lifestyle without the work that goes into it.

I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

From everything I’ve read, retailers suffer more shrinkage from employees than from shoplifters.

RetiredAt63

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #154 on: February 05, 2024, 06:29:46 AM »
increasingly concerned about street crime, paying more attention to politicians who address it.

Poverty is a huge driver of street crime. I am paying attention to politicians who genuinely attempt to address that, rather than “tough on crime” rhetoric.
So is.lack of law enforcement, combined with lax prosecution. Many steal far beyond covering basic needs, they're doing it to create wealth. They want the pro athlete lifestyle without the work that goes into it.

I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

From everything I’ve read, retailers suffer more shrinkage from employees than from shoplifters.

Which is why one-topic stories do not give the overall picture.  Therefore the reader should also inquire to themselves why the source chose to give information on part of a problem and not on other parts of the problem.  Is there an agenda behind the choice?

GuitarStv

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #155 on: February 05, 2024, 07:53:04 AM »
"Auto theft considered a 'national crisis' in Canada, with nearly all stolen cars exported by organized crime"
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/auto-theft-canada-1.6953242

I think we should call them 'stolen trucks' . . . not cars.  Nine of the top ten stolen vehicles are SUVs and trucks - https://www.equiteassociation.com/top-10-most-stolen-vehicles.  9/10 of the stolen vehicles also use push button starting . . . which makes me think that this is less secure than a good old key.



increasingly concerned about street crime, paying more attention to politicians who address it.

Poverty is a huge driver of street crime. I am paying attention to politicians who genuinely attempt to address that, rather than “tough on crime” rhetoric.
So is.lack of law enforcement, combined with lax prosecution. Many steal far beyond covering basic needs, they're doing it to create wealth. They want the pro athlete lifestyle without the work that goes into it.

I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

From everything I’ve read, retailers suffer more shrinkage from employees than from shoplifters.

Which is why one-topic stories do not give the overall picture.  Therefore the reader should also inquire to themselves why the source chose to give information on part of a problem and not on other parts of the problem.  Is there an agenda behind the choice?

When I worked at Home Depot I learned that we were experiencing 4-5% 'shrinkage' from stuff stolen by employees.  Which kinda blew my mind.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 07:55:49 AM by GuitarStv »

Dicey

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #156 on: February 05, 2024, 08:32:52 AM »
increasingly concerned about street crime, paying more attention to politicians who address it.

Poverty is a huge driver of street crime. I am paying attention to politicians who genuinely attempt to address that, rather than “tough on crime” rhetoric.
So is.lack of law enforcement, combined with lax prosecution. Many steal far beyond covering basic needs, they're doing it to create wealth. They want the pro athlete lifestyle without the work that goes into it.

I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

From everything I’ve read, retailers suffer more shrinkage from employees than from shoplifters.
Not any more. A few recent examples:
https://abc7news.com/southern-california-theft-ring-bust-stolen-goods-warehouse-chp/14097269/
https://abc30.com/brenda-yanez-the-makeup-store-retail-theft-california-highway-patrol/14219109/
https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/350k-worth-of-merchandise-stolen-in-organized-retail-thefts-seized-in-oakland-galt-raids/


SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #157 on: February 05, 2024, 09:53:40 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

9/10 of the stolen vehicles also use push button starting . . . which makes me think that this is less secure than a good old key.

There are no shortage of "relay attacks" and such that let you accomplish this, as well as the "break a window without triggering the car alarm, plug a gizmo in, and tell it to trust this new key" techniques on a range of cars.  So, yes, an old fashioned "key" is quite a bit more secure, assuming some reasonable competence about it (the Kia/Hyndai thefts have been against regular key style ignition switches, but they didn't bother with the sort of stuff everyone else has been using for 10+ years now in terms of immobilizers).

Log

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #158 on: February 05, 2024, 10:08:25 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me. In time, people grow accustomed to self-checkout, and stores won’t choose to spend more on employees than they have to. I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I have been to many stores at this point (especially when I was in New Zealand) that had no cashiers at all. I’ve also seen videos of grocery stores in the Netherlands where you carry the scanner around the store with you so you can put items directly in your personal bag as you shop. Then you plug your scanner back in and pay on your way out the door.

No one is hankering for the days of the full counter-service grocer anymore. These things have always been changing with new technology and new business models, and they will always continue to change. I expect that along with self-checkout, grocery delivery will be a rapidly growing share of the market in the years to come.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #159 on: February 05, 2024, 10:20:10 AM »
The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90995440/self-checkout-is-awful-list-of-retailers-stores-scaling-back

Dunno.  You've got your opinion, but some no-name retailers like Dollar General, Walmart, ShopRite, Booths, Target, and Costco are all re-evaluating the use of self checkout lanes.

Walmart has replaced self checkouts with cashier lanes in at least some New Mexico stores: https://www.businessinsider.com/walmart-pulling-self-checkout-lanes-from-some-stores-2023-9

Quote
Walmart is pulling self-checkout lanes from at least three stores, requiring shoppers to have an employee ring up their orders.

Two stores in Albuquerque, New Mexico, were recently renovated to replace the checkout lanes, and changes to a third area store are slated to be finished in October, Walmart spokesperson Josh Havens told Insider.

So, you're welcome to dismiss the trend, but retailers operating with far more data than you and I seem to not view them as the full win they were supposed to be.

Quote
I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I see it regardless of the mix of people in the store.  The self checkout lanes simply aren't used, at any of the local home improvement stores that I frequent.  And I tend to see longer lines at the grocery checkout lanes than the self checkouts as well.

But you're free to dismiss it.  I mean, I don't even use a smartphone, what do I know?

RetiredAt63

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #160 on: February 05, 2024, 10:48:47 AM »
My local Walmart has set the store up to encourage self-checkout for groceries.  The closest checkouts to the grocery area are the self-checkouts.  So these are also the closest checkouts to the door to the grocery area.  If people came in by the grocery door they are likely to want to leave by the same door, and there are the self-checkouts.

People who have shopped in the non-grocery section are going to be close to the cashiers when they are done shopping.   They are also more likely to have entered by the other door, and can easily leave by the same door.

I have noticed that it is almost all groceries being checked out at the self-checkouts.  It is mostly non-grocery items at the cashiers.

I have to think this is intentional.  No store designer is just placing departments and checkouts randomly.

wenchsenior

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #161 on: February 05, 2024, 11:54:05 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me. In time, people grow accustomed to self-checkout, and stores won’t choose to spend more on employees than they have to. I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I have been to many stores at this point (especially when I was in New Zealand) that had no cashiers at all. I’ve also seen videos of grocery stores in the Netherlands where you carry the scanner around the store with you so you can put items directly in your personal bag as you shop. Then you plug your scanner back in and pay on your way out the door.

No one is hankering for the days of the full counter-service grocer anymore. These things have always been changing with new technology and new business models, and they will always continue to change. I expect that along with self-checkout, grocery delivery will be a rapidly growing share of the market in the years to come.

I certainly am. I assume our resistance is futile, but my husband and I resolutely refuse to use self-checkout unless there is zero option.

GuitarStv

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #162 on: February 05, 2024, 11:56:48 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me. In time, people grow accustomed to self-checkout, and stores won’t choose to spend more on employees than they have to. I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I have been to many stores at this point (especially when I was in New Zealand) that had no cashiers at all. I’ve also seen videos of grocery stores in the Netherlands where you carry the scanner around the store with you so you can put items directly in your personal bag as you shop. Then you plug your scanner back in and pay on your way out the door.

No one is hankering for the days of the full counter-service grocer anymore. These things have always been changing with new technology and new business models, and they will always continue to change. I expect that along with self-checkout, grocery delivery will be a rapidly growing share of the market in the years to come.

I certainly am. I assume our resistance is futile, but my husband and I resolutely refuse to use self-checkout unless there is zero option.

There has been an awful lot of grumbling about problems around self-checkouts here in Ontario . . . enough that I've read a few retailers were scaling back those lines.

FWIW - I also choose to use a regular checkout the vast majority of the time.  If the store wants me to work as a cashier, they should pay me to do so.

Just Joe

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #163 on: February 05, 2024, 12:58:02 PM »
I avoid the self-checkout too. The only time I use it is when the traditional lines are very backed up.

dividendman

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #164 on: February 05, 2024, 12:58:37 PM »
There has been an awful lot of grumbling about problems around self-checkouts here in Ontario . . . enough that I've read a few retailers were scaling back those lines.

FWIW - I also choose to use a regular checkout the vast majority of the time.  If the store wants me to work as a cashier, they should pay me to do so.

I'm the same way with logos. The only way I wear something with an external logo is if I got it for free since I'm advertising for them! The one exception is my car since I don't want to rip it off and repaint etc.

reeshau

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #165 on: February 05, 2024, 02:57:10 PM »
I wonder how the self-checkout haters would feel about the system at Uniqlo.  I have no chance to check one out locally.

https://www.inc.com/bruce-crumley/self-checkout-haters-retailers-rejoice-new-machine-rings-customers-up-automatically.html

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #166 on: February 05, 2024, 04:19:33 PM »
I wonder how the self-checkout haters would feel about the system at Uniqlo.

It appears to have a per-item RFID tag and sort the details of those out during checkout.

It probably works fine.  However, it seems the sort of system better suited to "low item count, high item value" checkout than a general grocery store.  The cost (in components and labor) to have a RFID tag on each piece of clothing in a store is vastly lower than to do the same for every item in a grocery store or general goods store (department store?  Not sure what exactly to call Target and Walmart type places).

I see roughly $0.10/tag in bulk quantities.  So, for a grocery store, are you willing to increase costs by that much per item for the convenience of checkout?  Perhaps some markets can tolerate that, yet without almost every item being tagged, the benefits drop off substantially.  "Swipe it to see if it has RFID, then read the barcode if not" is far inferior to "Put a bag of clothing in the machine and pay for it all, because there is confidence every item is tagged."  The advantage of bar codes is that they can be printed with the same process that is used to print the rest of the container materials - they are simply white and black ink, readable by a range of technologies.  RFID tags add a real cost per item, and cannot be usefully used on produce (which is a common source of frustrations in self checkouts).

I expect many companies to realize that a return to human-first interaction is a competitive advantage.  I will absolutely preferentially spend money with a company that has a human answer the phone versus one that informs me to listen carefully, as their menu options have changed.

ATtiny85

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #167 on: February 05, 2024, 04:39:06 PM »
I appreciate those that don’t use the self checkout lane. Keeps you out of my way as I quickly scan, pay, bag, and leave. I always use the self checkout when it’s an option. Decreasing the number of people I have to deal with is always preferred.

Do you folks with ICE vehicles use pay at the pump?

GuitarStv

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #168 on: February 05, 2024, 04:57:55 PM »
I appreciate those that don’t use the self checkout lane. Keeps you out of my way as I quickly scan, pay, bag, and leave. I always use the self checkout when it’s an option. Decreasing the number of people I have to deal with is always preferred.

Do you folks with ICE vehicles use pay at the pump?

I pay at the pump - it significantly speeds up my time at the gas station.

This doesn't seem to be the case with self checkout though.  I buy a lot of fruit and veggies, and finding/entering the code, weighing it, putting it in the bagging area, telling the machine that I don't want to purchase bags, then lifting the veggie into my cloth bag and getting yelled at by the machine to wait until the single available cashier can come over to OK the heinousness of using cloth bags seems to significantly slow me down every time I'm at the grocery store.

nereo

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #169 on: February 05, 2024, 05:23:02 PM »
Interesting re: self checkout and others preferences.

Personally I feel like an absolute tool asking someone else to scan my items when I could do it myself. My local grocer went from 4 self checkouts to 8. I’ve noticed a number of new retailers adding them as well, with human cashiers less present.

bacchi

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #170 on: February 05, 2024, 06:11:52 PM »
I also prefer self checkout. The local grocer has 10 and they're always busy but, still, the line goes more quickly than the person lines.

I dump all of my bags on the scale first and it doesn't balk even when I have ice packs in them.

Just Joe

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #171 on: February 05, 2024, 06:17:18 PM »
I appreciate those that don’t use the self checkout lane. Keeps you out of my way as I quickly scan, pay, bag, and leave. I always use the self checkout when it’s an option. Decreasing the number of people I have to deal with is always preferred.

Do you folks with ICE vehicles use pay at the pump?

I pay at the pump - it significantly speeds up my time at the gas station.

This doesn't seem to be the case with self checkout though.  I buy a lot of fruit and veggies, and finding/entering the code, weighing it, putting it in the bagging area, telling the machine that I don't want to purchase bags, then lifting the veggie into my cloth bag and getting yelled at by the machine to wait until the single available cashier can come over to OK the heinousness of using cloth bags seems to significantly slow me down every time I'm at the grocery store.

Same.

seattlecyclone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #172 on: February 05, 2024, 06:28:24 PM »
Yeah I'll do self checkout if I'm getting like four things, all with barcodes. The pros are much more efficient with weighing produce and scanning large numbers of items and processing coupons and letting me buy beer. I'll happily wait in line for a minute.

reeshau

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #173 on: February 05, 2024, 06:31:16 PM »
I forgot to add:  I am an ex-cashier, so I do tend to go to the self checkout, with no worries.  I don't like the ones that try to cram them in a small space, with two bags and no place to put others when full.  (while weighing the contents)  The full-sized ones with plenty of space are a dream.  And when I self checkout, the bagger doesn't cram my delicate fruit and veg in with the cans, bruising them into oblivion!

RetiredAt63

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #174 on: February 05, 2024, 08:03:40 PM »
What I am finding I like best is having my groceries checked by a cashier (they are at least 3x faster than I am) but I pack my bags.  That way the groceries get sorted properly but the whole process is fast.

Plus I do like the little bit of human interaction.   

reeshau

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #175 on: February 05, 2024, 10:01:00 PM »
What I am finding I like best is having my groceries checked by a cashier (they are at least 3x faster than I am) but I pack my bags.  That way the groceries get sorted properly but the whole process is fast.

Plus I do like the little bit of human interaction.

If they don't have a bagger, I think they usually appreciate the help, too.  It looks good on their metrics to process more transactions.

Or, you just shop at Aldi, where it's expected!

RetiredAt63

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #176 on: February 06, 2024, 07:37:19 AM »
What I am finding I like best is having my groceries checked by a cashier (they are at least 3x faster than I am) but I pack my bags.  That way the groceries get sorted properly but the whole process is fast.

Plus I do like the little bit of human interaction.

If they don't have a bagger, I think they usually appreciate the help, too.  It looks good on their metrics to process more transactions.

Or, you just shop at Aldi, where it's expected!

All the grocery stores stopped bagging during Covid.  Most have not gone back.
We don't have Aldi here.  Although there are rumours they might be coming into the Canadian market.

EvenSteven

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2024, 07:50:34 AM »
I always knew the 2024 US presidential elections would come down to grocery store self check outs.

ATtiny85

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #178 on: February 06, 2024, 09:30:44 AM »
I only bag my own boxes of oranges. Oh wait, I mean my orange boxes. I'll let the pros bag my foam, since if not, it just runs through my mesh bags.

Log

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #179 on: February 06, 2024, 09:54:55 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me. In time, people grow accustomed to self-checkout, and stores won’t choose to spend more on employees than they have to. I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I have been to many stores at this point (especially when I was in New Zealand) that had no cashiers at all. I’ve also seen videos of grocery stores in the Netherlands where you carry the scanner around the store with you so you can put items directly in your personal bag as you shop. Then you plug your scanner back in and pay on your way out the door.

No one is hankering for the days of the full counter-service grocer anymore. These things have always been changing with new technology and new business models, and they will always continue to change. I expect that along with self-checkout, grocery delivery will be a rapidly growing share of the market in the years to come.

I certainly am. I assume our resistance is futile, but my husband and I resolutely refuse to use self-checkout unless there is zero option.

“Counter-service grocery” refers to the bygone system where the groceries are all stocked in a room behind a counter, and the customer hands their shopping list to the grocer, who then goes and collects all the items. The model of having customers walk through aisles and pick out their own items was invented by Piggly Wiggly over 100 years ago, and now none of us are hankering for the good old days of counter service. It took 20+ years for the self-service model to become widely adopted across the industry, but eventually, people got used to the new way, and the more expensive business mode died out.

The analogy should be clear.

nereo

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2024, 10:39:21 AM »

“Counter-service grocery” refers to the bygone system where the groceries are all stocked in a room behind a counter, and the customer hands their shopping list to the grocer, who then goes and collects all the items. The model of having customers walk through aisles and pick out their own items was invented by Piggly Wiggly over 100 years ago, and now none of us are hankering for the good old days of counter service. It took 20+ years for the self-service model to become widely adopted across the industry, but eventually, people got used to the new way, and the more expensive business mode died out.

The analogy should be clear.

More recent examples as well.  When elevators were first installed they came with an operator who's primary job was literally to push the button and make sure you got on/off at the correct floor.  Phones used to go to a switchboard where operators would literally connect the line and ring the other party.  Local calls were first phased out with direct dialing, but as recently as a few decades ago you often still needed an operator to connect a "long distance" call.
Even more recently, buying things to be delivered (the precursor to 'online shopping') involved thumbing through a catalog and then calling the 1-800 number to place the order.

nereo

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2024, 10:51:51 AM »
What I hear you saying is that we should automate the Presidency so that we don't have to worry about picking between Trump and Biden?

Now that you mention it, I think we place far too much power, emphasis and responsibility on the single person who runs the executive branch.  A big part of that is congress willingly yielding power to the president (most often when 'their guy' was in power, but increasingly because they couldn't complete the very jobs they were explicitly given, like setting budgets). I also think that while we give credit/blame to "President X", it's often the various cabinet-level bureaus within the executive branch that enact (or fail to enact) much of a president's agenda.
Ultimately I think it's pretty stupid to expect one person to "run the country" for four years - whether that's what actually happens or not.

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2024, 10:57:00 AM »
"Counter service" is essentially coming back with the supermarkets that offer curbside pickup or delivery options. I know plenty of people who love it. I've also witnessed plenty of times where I see friends complain about how the staff got their order wrong, or picked out subpar produce, or made a very questionable substitution for an item that wasn't available. I personally don't want to mess around with that, and especially don't want to pay extra for that "service." Much more convenient (in my opinion) to walk around the store myself and decide for myself in the moment how to react when an item on my list isn't there than to exactly specify my substitution preferences for each item in advance or to trust the low-paid worker to be on the same wavelength as me about those things.

If professional checkout service ever comes with an added charge I might change my opinions about when to use it. Until then, those self checkout kiosks are just too annoying to use for more than a small handful of items.

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2024, 11:06:20 AM »
Earlier, I mistakenly thought I saw Dean Phillips well ahead in the NH Primary, and was excited to think there'll be someone under their natural life expectancy in the General Election.

It'll be interesting to see the debates, if there'll be any.

Yes, they're both old.  But life expectancy at birth is meaningless for these old guys.  You might think my looking at life expectancy (at birth), that these guys may not make it to fill out their term, but thinking about life expectancy (at birth) like that leads to wild and crazy ideas, such as " a 35 year old guy was an elderly man 2,000 years ago when life expectancy was 30", or "we need to change social security because life expectancy (at birth) is way up in the last 100 years".

Biden at a current age of 81 has a life expectancy of another 7.25 years, and Trump at 77 has a life expectancy of another 9.3 years.  That's not great, but somewhat on par for leaders of lots of public companies.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2024, 11:13:48 AM »
Do you folks with ICE vehicles use pay at the pump?

Sometimes if I'm in a hurry.  Frequently enough, especially at the smaller stations I frequent, I'll wander in and use cash.    I don't like the surveillance of the credit card financial systems any more than I like the consumer tech ones.

I always knew the 2024 US presidential elections would come down to grocery store self check outs.

I don't know that you can make that case particularly, but I do feel there's a rift opening rather wider between two sides in the digital debate.

One side, which is well represented here, is the side that views human interaction in the economy as something that ought be replaced, whenever possible (or at least convenient), by machines.  The automated checkouts, cell phone first payment/restaurant menus/etc (or those table kiosk... things, that try to get you to order on them, then pay to play games on them, then pay on them, all without having to interact with a human), food delivery "apps" - basically, the world in which the technically advanced elites on their smartphones are served by the unseen workers actually making these things work.  I see it as the simulation of the desired "machine future" (well predicted by the 1909 short story The Machine Stops) in which humans do not have to interact with other humans at all - and until we can fake that, well, the human machinery serving us ought stay as invisible and unnoticed as possible.  One could, and some have, easily drawn parallels to the institution of slavery, in which they were to be not seen, not heard, but keep everything running.  Doing it with digital technology instead does not change the attitudes of "I am to be served with minimum disruption" that our digital-first systems seem to promote.

The other side, which I am certainly more embedded in, is rejecting this and trying to get back to far more regular in person human interaction - and sees the value in interacting with actual people, not intermediated online versions of their best selves, on a regular basis.  To recognize that humans are messy, and to create the space and time to do this.  To do life with each other, in many ways, at a point where it is in a sense quite real to say that our children are being raised in a community, that we are (mostly) rejecting the digital intermediation, or putting it in the place where it is used to facilitate in person interactions that are the priority, etc.  It requires much time, but I find it far, far more worthwhile, having rejected the previously discussed approach (and I was there for most of two decades - I have in the past very much gone for the digital first approach, I have simply measured it honestly and found it massively lacking).

I see the discussion about cashiers as simply one facet of this opening rift.  But the internet will not see it.  It manifests mostly in "dead internet theory" in which fewer and fewer people are bothering to post and interact online, as more and more people simply opt out of it.

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2024, 11:20:40 AM »
The counter service model has also returned in shoplifting heavy areas where deodorant, laundry detergent, etc. are now locked up and require staff to retrieve them for you...

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2024, 11:48:18 AM »
I see mainly retailers complaining about it and yet they still refuse to get rid of the stupid self checkouts and hire enough cashiers.

I enjoy watching (and being in...) the lines at the cashiers when there's an empty self checkout bay and a very sad looking employee over there to "help."  They used to suggest people come use the self checkout, and I guess got enough "Nah, I'll wait here..." responses that they don't even try anymore.  One of my local home improvement stores is quite funny at this point, with the empty self checkout bays and lines for the cashiers.

Just close the thing and put the person watching them to work as a regular cashier, everyone will be happier.

The idea that stores will tear out self-checkout machines and go back to hiring more cashiers seems about 0% likely to me. In time, people grow accustomed to self-checkout, and stores won’t choose to spend more on employees than they have to. I would assume the demographics of your local home improvement store (let me guess: curmudgeonly older men with lots of time on their hands?) have a lot to do with the phenomenon you’re describing.

I have been to many stores at this point (especially when I was in New Zealand) that had no cashiers at all. I’ve also seen videos of grocery stores in the Netherlands where you carry the scanner around the store with you so you can put items directly in your personal bag as you shop. Then you plug your scanner back in and pay on your way out the door.

No one is hankering for the days of the full counter-service grocer anymore. These things have always been changing with new technology and new business models, and they will always continue to change. I expect that along with self-checkout, grocery delivery will be a rapidly growing share of the market in the years to come.

I certainly am. I assume our resistance is futile, but my husband and I resolutely refuse to use self-checkout unless there is zero option.

“Counter-service grocery” refers to the bygone system where the groceries are all stocked in a room behind a counter, and the customer hands their shopping list to the grocer, who then goes and collects all the items. The model of having customers walk through aisles and pick out their own items was invented by Piggly Wiggly over 100 years ago, and now none of us are hankering for the good old days of counter service. It took 20+ years for the self-service model to become widely adopted across the industry, but eventually, people got used to the new way, and the more expensive business mode died out.

The analogy should be clear.

It's clear. But as stated, I do still wish we had counter service grocery. ETA: It's odd, considering I'm a devout introvert who is happy not to converse much with others. There was a full service corner grocer in Tucson back in the 1990s that I used to go to regularly, and I really enjoyed it.  These days, with those vanishingly rare, I try to shop at smaller stores that have more employees/traffic density. And refuse to use self checkout, as noted.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2024, 11:52:55 AM by wenchsenior »

reeshau

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2024, 12:17:07 PM »
When elevators were first installed they came with an operator who's primary job was literally to push the button and make sure you got on/off at the correct floor. 

This is more apt an example than you may think.  Elevators, at least in developed economies, added sensors so that the doors would sense an obstruction and open, and that the elevator would not begin moving with an obstruction (like someone's arm) in the door.

Hans Rosling includes an example of someone returning to an elevator of the past in Factfulness.

https://researcheditors.co.uk/a-young-swedish-student-ran-to-catch-a-lift/

SpareChange

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2024, 04:10:09 PM »
What I hear you saying is that we should automate the Presidency so that we don't have to worry about picking between Trump and Biden?

After all it's only a net job loss of 1.

ChatGPT 20.28

And put me down with the peeps who generally love self checkout.

Log

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2024, 11:20:16 PM »
I don't know that you can make that case particularly, but I do feel there's a rift opening rather wider between two sides in the digital debate.

One side, which is well represented here, is the side that views human interaction in the economy as something that ought be replaced, whenever possible (or at least convenient), by machines.  The automated checkouts, cell phone first payment/restaurant menus/etc (or those table kiosk... things, that try to get you to order on them, then pay to play games on them, then pay on them, all without having to interact with a human), food delivery "apps" - basically, the world in which the technically advanced elites on their smartphones are served by the unseen workers actually making these things work.  I see it as the simulation of the desired "machine future" (well predicted by the 1909 short story The Machine Stops) in which humans do not have to interact with other humans at all - and until we can fake that, well, the human machinery serving us ought stay as invisible and unnoticed as possible.  One could, and some have, easily drawn parallels to the institution of slavery, in which they were to be not seen, not heard, but keep everything running.  Doing it with digital technology instead does not change the attitudes of "I am to be served with minimum disruption" that our digital-first systems seem to promote.

The other side, which I am certainly more embedded in, is rejecting this and trying to get back to far more regular in person human interaction - and sees the value in interacting with actual people, not intermediated online versions of their best selves, on a regular basis.  To recognize that humans are messy, and to create the space and time to do this.  To do life with each other, in many ways, at a point where it is in a sense quite real to say that our children are being raised in a community, that we are (mostly) rejecting the digital intermediation, or putting it in the place where it is used to facilitate in person interactions that are the priority, etc.  It requires much time, but I find it far, far more worthwhile, having rejected the previously discussed approach (and I was there for most of two decades - I have in the past very much gone for the digital first approach, I have simply measured it honestly and found it massively lacking).

I see the discussion about cashiers as simply one facet of this opening rift.  But the internet will not see it.  It manifests mostly in "dead internet theory" in which fewer and fewer people are bothering to post and interact online, as more and more people simply opt out of it.

Wow, truly nothing is safe from inane culture war tribalism being pasted over the top. And of course, anyone who describes such a divide is conveniently against the side that likes slavery or hates babies or whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, dividing the world into "us vs them" and painting "them" as evil is kind of the whole problem to begin with.

reeshau

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #190 on: February 07, 2024, 04:43:21 AM »
Maybe, just maybe, dividing the world into "us vs them" and painting "them" as evil is kind of the whole problem to begin with.

+1,000,000

I like variety in my life, including a variety of opinions.  I can barely imagine a world where everybody just agreed, and said the same things over and over again.  How boring.  It would drive me nuts.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 04:45:28 AM by reeshau »

nereo

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #191 on: February 07, 2024, 05:52:54 AM »
I don't know that you can make that case particularly, but I do feel there's a rift opening rather wider between two sides in the digital debate.

One side, which is well represented here, is the side that views human interaction in the economy as something that ought be replaced, whenever possible (or at least convenient), by machines.  The automated checkouts, cell phone first payment/restaurant menus/etc (or those table kiosk... things, that try to get you to order on them, then pay to play games on them, then pay on them, all without having to interact with a human), food delivery "apps" - basically, the world in which the technically advanced elites on their smartphones are served by the unseen workers actually making these things work.  I see it as the simulation of the desired "machine future" (well predicted by the 1909 short story The Machine Stops) in which humans do not have to interact with other humans at all - and until we can fake that, well, the human machinery serving us ought stay as invisible and unnoticed as possible.  One could, and some have, easily drawn parallels to the institution of slavery, in which they were to be not seen, not heard, but keep everything running.  Doing it with digital technology instead does not change the attitudes of "I am to be served with minimum disruption" that our digital-first systems seem to promote.

The other side, which I am certainly more embedded in, is rejecting this and trying to get back to far more regular in person human interaction - and sees the value in interacting with actual people, not intermediated online versions of their best selves, on a regular basis.  To recognize that humans are messy, and to create the space and time to do this.  To do life with each other, in many ways, at a point where it is in a sense quite real to say that our children are being raised in a community, that we are (mostly) rejecting the digital intermediation, or putting it in the place where it is used to facilitate in person interactions that are the priority, etc.  It requires much time, but I find it far, far more worthwhile, having rejected the previously discussed approach (and I was there for most of two decades - I have in the past very much gone for the digital first approach, I have simply measured it honestly and found it massively lacking).

I see the discussion about cashiers as simply one facet of this opening rift.  But the internet will not see it.  It manifests mostly in "dead internet theory" in which fewer and fewer people are bothering to post and interact online, as more and more people simply opt out of it.

Wow, truly nothing is safe from inane culture war tribalism being pasted over the top. And of course, anyone who describes such a divide is conveniently against the side that likes slavery or hates babies or whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, dividing the world into "us vs them" and painting "them" as evil is kind of the whole problem to begin with.

+1.
I personally do not see this sharp dichotomous divide (this “us vs them”) that you are describing here @SmashYourSmartPhone. I personally dont like using a cashier for most food transactions because I don’t like asking another person to do a low-skilled task for me, particularly when there’s an acute labor shortage as there is in my region. Having been a cashier at one point (we joked we were no better than “trained monkey pushing buttons”) I don’t see it as something to fight to preserve. But so long as others like the cashier service (and I occasionally do when managing a small child and a big order) stores will offer both. Which is how a fair and regulated market is supposed to work. I don’t see it as any great digital divide either - among my peers I’m far less connected  and way less into tech.

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #192 on: February 07, 2024, 08:46:41 AM »
...

I personally do not see this sharp dichotomous divide (this “us vs them”) that you are describing here ...

It is the result of dichotomous thinking which some refer to as a particular thinking style - but that might be problematic as dichotomous thinking isn't just a style issue but more like a cognitive impairment as it really is defined best as a decreased ability to deal with ambiguity, which is another way to say that there is a problem with dealing with probabilities.

The problem is that ambiguity is the name of the game when figuring out the world and dichotomous thinking interferes with the work of resolving ambiguities as far as it is possible.
Dichotomous thinking can leapfrog the thought processes involved and thereby resolve the emotional need of resolving the ambiguities or tolerating them without actually acknowledging the existence of ambiguity.
All sorts of crazy can result, up to the weirdest conspiracy theories.

Dichotomous thinking is associated with borderline personality disorder, anxiety and may be seen as a form of avoidance behavior.

Avoidance of the dichotomous thinking trap requires the ability to think with probabilities and evolving changes in probabilities.
The world then looks more like an evolving process rather than being hamstrung by a fixed underlying truth structure which dichotomous thinking implies when negating the ambiguous nature of nearly everything that is worth thinking about.

Here is an article about Bayesian thinking:

https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-think-like-a-bayesian-and-make-better-decisions

And a thread going deeper into the weeds:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/bayesian-reasoning/

« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 02:27:35 PM by PeteD01 »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #193 on: February 07, 2024, 09:50:30 AM »
Wow, truly nothing is safe from inane culture war tribalism being pasted over the top. And of course, anyone who describes such a divide is conveniently against the side that likes slavery or hates babies or whatever.

How else would you describe the comfortable remote-ness of those who were able to smugly isolated entirely during the Covid pandemic lockdowns, on the labor of those who didn't have the capability?  Their deliveries and everything else were not being done by robots, they were being done by humans who were deemed "essential" - you can draw whatever parallels you want, but I've simply picked the obvious, overtly, not regularly spoken of variety that's evident to quite a few people outside of particular bubbles.

Quote
Maybe, just maybe, dividing the world into "us vs them" and painting "them" as evil is kind of the whole problem to begin with.

Sorry, is my opinion on modern consumer tech showing through?  Yes, I think "offloading everything to poorly paid gig workers who don't get any benefits or anything else" is rather hostile, and we ought not be doing that.

But I also recognize that a split is happening.  I see it in daily life.  So to deny that it's happening, and to not talk about it, is just as much a problem.

And, yes, it's absolutely a spectrum.  But there is a divergence happening.

Log

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #194 on: February 07, 2024, 10:49:56 AM »
Sure, okay, there’s something morally unsavory about tech interfaces insulating elites from the working class. But do you not acknowledge or worry that your thinking on this issue conveniently allows you to condemn an entire class of people who you already had negative attitudes about?

Do you not acknowledge that as a person with the means to accumulate enough wealth to retire early, you are one of the elites? Oh, but those elites were “smugly isolated,” you’re not smug about it so you’re all good. But wait, how do you know these elites you dislike (let me guess, “coastal” ones) are smug? Could you perhaps acknowledge that there is a whole variety of different levels of moral reasoning and self-awareness within the entire diverse category of people you’re morally condemning?

And could you also consider that there are humble salt-of-the-earth Americans in your beloved heartland who also love to not deal with “the dirty poors” and isolate themselves in class-segregated suburbs and buy cheap shit from exploitative sweatshops overseas without batting an eyelash as to their moral complicity in an exploitative system?

I’m just very confused with a politics that seems to say “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” while also comfortably aligning itself with the right-wing coded culture war team. Binary thinking is just not suited to the complexity of our ethical landscape.

nereo

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #195 on: February 07, 2024, 11:38:14 AM »

Sorry, is my opinion on modern consumer tech showing through?  Yes, I think "offloading everything to poorly paid gig workers who don't get any benefits or anything else" is rather hostile, and we ought not be doing that.

But I also recognize that a split is happening.  I see it in daily life.  So to deny that it's happening, and to not talk about it, is just as much a problem.

And, yes, it's absolutely a spectrum.  But there is a divergence happening.

Yes, your opinion is very much showing through. But that’s not what I find objectionable. In a number of your posts you are assigning a motive and judgement to people who choose a different method to interact with the works (eg smart phones, cashless payments, automatic checkout). Critically, you aren’t backing up your assertions about motive or demographic with any real evidence, and often it’s countered by both the experiences of other posters and often by data.

Captain FIRE

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #196 on: February 07, 2024, 01:07:45 PM »
Sorry, where is there smugness? Everyone i knew that used technology to avoid interactions at the height of COVID was tangibly grateful by tipping well for that type of service. (We wore masks instead while grocery shopping.) I see this trend of paying more for in person work (or able to pay people less for remote) as something likely to continue, as companies that offer remote work flexibility will have greater choices in applicants, and we might have to actually start paying more for in person work like teachers.

Re the "self checkout" question, I think the issue there is consumers do not see the benefit to themselves from using it. If you are doing produce, it take longer to do it yourself (or be stuck behind others doing it), so there's a considerable negative aspect to it. And if something goes wrong, you have to wait for assistance to get it resolved. On the other hand, for many of the other named technology innovations, there was benefit or at least no negatives to doing it yourself:
- Elevators had sensors, so you don't need someone to monitor the doors before closing them
- Telephone can be connected directly faster than with an operator
- Browsing in the grocery stores allows you to pick exactly what you want (I bet with counter service that was when there were far fewer choices...one bag of flour rather than multiple brands/varieties to choose from)
and so forth.

Just Joe

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #197 on: February 07, 2024, 08:32:14 PM »

“Counter-service grocery” refers to the bygone system where the groceries are all stocked in a room behind a counter, and the customer hands their shopping list to the grocer, who then goes and collects all the items. The model of having customers walk through aisles and pick out their own items was invented by Piggly Wiggly over 100 years ago, and now none of us are hankering for the good old days of counter service. It took 20+ years for the self-service model to become widely adopted across the industry, but eventually, people got used to the new way, and the more expensive business mode died out.

The analogy should be clear.

More recent examples as well.  When elevators were first installed they came with an operator who's primary job was literally to push the button and make sure you got on/off at the correct floor.  Phones used to go to a switchboard where operators would literally connect the line and ring the other party.  Local calls were first phased out with direct dialing, but as recently as a few decades ago you often still needed an operator to connect a "long distance" call.
Even more recently, buying things to be delivered (the precursor to 'online shopping') involved thumbing through a catalog and then calling the 1-800 number to place the order.

As recently as the early 1990s I placed orders by mail and a money order - and alot of faith. I ordered car parts this way when I was in the military. I ordered camera accessories that way too.

GuitarStv

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #198 on: February 08, 2024, 07:31:35 AM »

“Counter-service grocery” refers to the bygone system where the groceries are all stocked in a room behind a counter, and the customer hands their shopping list to the grocer, who then goes and collects all the items. The model of having customers walk through aisles and pick out their own items was invented by Piggly Wiggly over 100 years ago, and now none of us are hankering for the good old days of counter service. It took 20+ years for the self-service model to become widely adopted across the industry, but eventually, people got used to the new way, and the more expensive business mode died out.

The analogy should be clear.

More recent examples as well.  When elevators were first installed they came with an operator who's primary job was literally to push the button and make sure you got on/off at the correct floor.  Phones used to go to a switchboard where operators would literally connect the line and ring the other party.  Local calls were first phased out with direct dialing, but as recently as a few decades ago you often still needed an operator to connect a "long distance" call.
Even more recently, buying things to be delivered (the precursor to 'online shopping') involved thumbing through a catalog and then calling the 1-800 number to place the order.

As recently as the early 1990s I placed orders by mail and a money order - and alot of faith. I ordered car parts this way when I was in the military. I ordered camera accessories that way too.

We didn't have any department stores in town, so every spring my mom would order us our next year's worth of clothes from the Sears catalogue.  A mere two months wait and we would have new stuff!  Really helped keep overconsumption in check, when contrasted with crazy deliveries of your modern day Amazon.

the_gastropod

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Re: US Poll....who are you voting for?
« Reply #199 on: February 08, 2024, 08:48:47 AM »
I always knew the 2024 US presidential elections would come down to grocery store self check outs.

I don't know that you can make that case particularly, but I do feel there's a rift opening rather wider between two sides in the digital debate.

One side, which is well represented here, is the side that views human interaction in the economy as something that ought be replaced, whenever possible (or at least convenient), by machines.  The automated checkouts, cell phone first payment/restaurant menus/etc (or those table kiosk... things, that try to get you to order on them, then pay to play games on them, then pay on them, all without having to interact with a human), food delivery "apps" - basically, the world in which the technically advanced elites on their smartphones are served by the unseen workers actually making these things work.  I see it as the simulation of the desired "machine future" (well predicted by the 1909 short story The Machine Stops) in which humans do not have to interact with other humans at all - and until we can fake that, well, the human machinery serving us ought stay as invisible and unnoticed as possible.  One could, and some have, easily drawn parallels to the institution of slavery, in which they were to be not seen, not heard, but keep everything running.  Doing it with digital technology instead does not change the attitudes of "I am to be served with minimum disruption" that our digital-first systems seem to promote.

The other side, which I am certainly more embedded in, is rejecting this and trying to get back to far more regular in person human interaction - and sees the value in interacting with actual people, not intermediated online versions of their best selves, on a regular basis.  To recognize that humans are messy, and to create the space and time to do this.  To do life with each other, in many ways, at a point where it is in a sense quite real to say that our children are being raised in a community, that we are (mostly) rejecting the digital intermediation, or putting it in the place where it is used to facilitate in person interactions that are the priority, etc.  It requires much time, but I find it far, far more worthwhile, having rejected the previously discussed approach (and I was there for most of two decades - I have in the past very much gone for the digital first approach, I have simply measured it honestly and found it massively lacking).

I see the discussion about cashiers as simply one facet of this opening rift.  But the internet will not see it.  It manifests mostly in "dead internet theory" in which fewer and fewer people are bothering to post and interact online, as more and more people simply opt out of it.

This is absolutely wild, to me. Most political parties throughout history can roughly be divided into two camps: the party for the many and the party for the entrenched & powerful. And the U.S., today, is no different. And it blows my mind to think that anyone can look at the Republican Party and think "Yep. That's the people's party. Because... I feel like people who vote Democratic like automated checkout machines". What?

Let's remind ourselves of some of the highest priority items Republicans have been advocating for these past few years:
1. Letting the expanded Child Tax Credit expire, causing the rate of childhood poverty to double
2. Overturning Roe v. Wade, which especially harms poorer women without the means to leave states with medieval abortion laws
3. Loosening Child Labor laws, to allow children as young as 14 to work night shifts
4. Raising the retirement age above 70 and cutting medicare
5. More tax cuts for corporations and the 1%
6. Cut climate initiatives, like $7.8B from the EPA’s Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund and $1.4 billion intended to tackle environmental health impacts in poor communities. An absolute gift to the oil/gas industry.
7. Withdrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement
8. Literal insurrection, and a continued push by many states to disregard votes when convenient [1]. The built-in minority-rule advantage the Republican Party already enjoys isn't enough.
9. Expanding oil drilling on public lands

Wow, truly nothing is safe from inane culture war tribalism being pasted over the top. And of course, anyone who describes such a divide is conveniently against the side that likes slavery or hates babies or whatever.

How else would you describe the comfortable remote-ness of those who were able to smugly isolated entirely during the Covid pandemic lockdowns, on the labor of those who didn't have the capability?  Their deliveries and everything else were not being done by robots, they were being done by humans who were deemed "essential" - you can draw whatever parallels you want, but I've simply picked the obvious, overtly, not regularly spoken of variety that's evident to quite a few people outside of particular bubbles.

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Maybe, just maybe, dividing the world into "us vs them" and painting "them" as evil is kind of the whole problem to begin with.

Sorry, is my opinion on modern consumer tech showing through?  Yes, I think "offloading everything to poorly paid gig workers who don't get any benefits or anything else" is rather hostile, and we ought not be doing that.

But I also recognize that a split is happening.  I see it in daily life.  So to deny that it's happening, and to not talk about it, is just as much a problem.

And, yes, it's absolutely a spectrum.  But there is a divergence happening.

Ah, yes. Those smug coastal elites, hiding in their ivory towers while the lowly minions did all their chores. I'm sorry, but I think you're falling for straight up propaganda here. Again, the Republican Party exists for one reason: to further enrich the rich. This is necessarily going to be an unpopular thing to do, so they play little culture war games to distract and convince enough saps to vote against their own interest by trying to convince you your peers are your real enemy.

I lived in NYC during the height of the pandemic. My wife was an essential worker, as were many of my friends. Every evening when the hospital shift rotated, the entire city would burst into cheering, and thanking these people for everything they were doing. Non-contact, especially during this time, wasn't some "smug" thing, it was the pinnacle of respect! To not further risk infecting people who were otherwise less able to limit their exposure risk. This retconning of history is pretty vile, and I think you're down a really absurd path here, to be honest.

[1] https://dlcc.org/press/arizona-gop-pushes-new-bill-to-override-popular-vote-in-presidential-election
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 10:21:49 AM by the_gastropod »