Author Topic: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead  (Read 19023 times)

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2024, 01:33:47 PM »
Who/how do you name an interim CEO in this case?  How do you hire a permanent replacement? 

If the board is doing their job they already have a written succession plan in place for which other senior executive would take over on an interim basis. Of course hiring the next permanent CEO might be slightly tougher given how the last one went out, but with the type of compensation these folks get I bet there's plenty of people who would happily take the job and just insist on a company-paid security detail.

Can CEO identities be protected information?

I believe officers have be named in SEC filings.

mm1970

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2024, 01:47:28 PM »
I read ... somewhere ... that UHC started using AI instead of people to deal with coverage claims, which led them to deny 90% of all claims.  And they continued to use AI, even though it was grossly incorrect on coverage.

reeshau

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2024, 01:56:17 PM »
Who/how do you name an interim CEO in this case?  How do you hire a permanent replacement? 

If the board is doing their job they already have a written succession plan in place for which other senior executive would take over on an interim basis. Of course hiring the next permanent CEO might be slightly tougher given how the last one went out, but with the type of compensation these folks get I bet there's plenty of people who would happily take the job and just insist on a company-paid security detail.

Can CEO identities be protected information?

Actually, the opposite.  They are one of the officers that has to sign the SarbOx docs.

I don't think they have to post a picture, though.

Sibley

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2024, 02:15:27 PM »
CEOs have to be listed by name. There's also requirements for compensation disclosure, and I believe they have to disclose security costs. I can confirm that the (different) big health insurance company I worked for previously did have private security for at least the CEO.

I can't confirm this, but someone on social media was saying that UnitedHealth did not provide security for any of its executives. I don't have time to dig into the filings, but if anyone wants to do so, please report back.

GuitarStv

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2024, 02:19:00 PM »
United Healthcare is pretty notorious for fucking folks over to make a buck.  Seems like sometimes actions have consequences, even for the ultra rich.

reeshau

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2024, 03:03:07 PM »
CEOs have to be listed by name. There's also requirements for compensation disclosure, and I believe they have to disclose security costs. I can confirm that the (different) big health insurance company I worked for previously did have private security for at least the CEO.

I can't confirm this, but someone on social media was saying that UnitedHealth did not provide security for any of its executives. I don't have time to dig into the filings, but if anyone wants to do so, please report back.

I read one report that said he was travelling without his detail; that he was purposely traveling low key.

The Wall Street Journal has an article on the implications for corporate security.  UnitedHealth disclosed no costs for executive security.  But, separate disclosure is only required when it is is off-duty; essentially, it's a perk, like private air travel.  So, at least you could say he had no personal security, or security at his home or for family.

Glenstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2024, 04:03:03 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if his life insurance company denied his policy claim? "It appears your euthanasia was out of network."

dandarc

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2024, 04:06:32 PM »
Wouldn't it be ironic if his life insurance company denied his policy claim? "It appears your euthanasia was out of network."
Maybe he had a Bullworth-esque deal in the works, but life insurance company got wise . . .

chasesfish

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2024, 05:09:50 PM »
As someone who's dealt with denial of claims, medical necessity arguments, ect, I'll say "I don't agree with murder, however I also understand how the system/process could drive someone to do it"

The rest of the developed world rations healthcare via provider shortages.

The United States rations healthcare through a third party payor system.   At best an insurer should be a speed bump to escalating healthcare costs, battling the hospital systems / pharma companies over what they can charge.   When they get into rationing care via pre-approvals, delays, and arbitrary determinations of medical necessity, the only thing surprising about this is it hasn't happened sooner.   

My last arugment with Anthem/BCBS was over them determining a proedure was not medically necessary if you were a resident of South Carolina, however they would provide coverage in most surrounding states.  They didn't care what one of the 60 or so experts in that field of medicine said, even though said expert had a subspecialty fellowship. 

As for the Anesthesia headline, the unsurprising part is Medicare made this change a few months ago and it was accepted, but when Anthem does it they are bad.   

My only comments are they need to battle prices, but get out of the business of rationing care and let doctors be doctors.

Glenstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2024, 06:20:13 PM »
As someone who's dealt with denial of claims, medical necessity arguments, ect, I'll say "I don't agree with murder, however I also understand how the system/process could drive someone to do it"

The rest of the developed world rations healthcare via provider shortages.

The United States rations healthcare through a third party payor system.
   At best an insurer should be a speed bump to escalating healthcare costs, battling the hospital systems / pharma companies over what they can charge.   When they get into rationing care via pre-approvals, delays, and arbitrary determinations of medical necessity, the only thing surprising about this is it hasn't happened sooner.   

My last arugment with Anthem/BCBS was over them determining a proedure was not medically necessary if you were a resident of South Carolina, however they would provide coverage in most surrounding states.  They didn't care what one of the 60 or so experts in that field of medicine said, even though said expert had a subspecialty fellowship. 

As for the Anesthesia headline, the unsurprising part is Medicare made this change a few months ago and it was accepted, but when Anthem does it they are bad.   

My only comments are they need to battle prices, but get out of the business of rationing care and let doctors be doctors.

I'd add that our rationing system also increases cost per unit healthcare by massively increasing the administrative friction and need for those administrators to get profits as a percentage of overall budget, including the admin costs. The system may attempt to ration costs for care, but also has absolutely zero incentive for the overally cost of care to go down... quite the opposite in fact.

My SO is a physician who works with a patient population that needs a lot of expensive medical equipment. She literally spends hours arguing with insurance-paid doctors without area specific knowledge about whether parapalegic patients need wheelchairs. Apparently, mobility is not needed for survival, so no medically necessary. Our system is insane and that it drives people out of their minds is understandable, even if not condonable in practice.

rocketpj

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2024, 07:22:40 PM »
This is an attack on a rich corporate guy, so we can be sure that law enforcement will do everything they can to find the perpetrator.

If the death was that of, say, a child who was denied cancer treatment, law enforcement will shrug.

GilesMM

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2024, 08:23:13 PM »
Shooter used a silencer. Could be a mob hit.


Corp CEOs will use this as an excuse to double their corporate security budgets at home, office and while traveling.  More jobs for retired military and FBI types who don't mind wearing suits and earpieces while overhearing executive drivel.

That doesn't make it fun for them.

My in-laws bought a house from an Exxon exec in the 90's.  This was when the Exxon Valdez was still fresh.  The security system on that house was insane.  It's one thing to do it, but to feel you *need* to go to that level would not help me sleep at night.


Our current home was owned by a defrocked Big Pharma CEO who was apparently fairly paranoid. I won't go much into details but it feels a bit like Fort Knox at times. An HVAC guy remarked yesterday remarked that our front doors were the thickest he has ever seen anywhere.

twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2024, 11:23:59 PM »
Shooter used a silencer. Could be a mob hit.


Corp CEOs will use this as an excuse to double their corporate security budgets at home, office and while traveling.  More jobs for retired military and FBI types who don't mind wearing suits and earpieces while overhearing executive drivel.

That doesn't make it fun for them.

My in-laws bought a house from an Exxon exec in the 90's.  This was when the Exxon Valdez was still fresh.  The security system on that house was insane.  It's one thing to do it, but to feel you *need* to go to that level would not help me sleep at night.


Our current home was owned by a defrocked Big Pharma CEO who was apparently fairly paranoid. I won't go much into details but it feels a bit like Fort Knox at times. An HVAC guy remarked yesterday remarked that our front doors were the thickest he has ever seen anywhere.

Why stretch to amass a $100m fortune as a CEO and deal with all the shit that comes with it when you can have everything you could ever want, and generational levels of wealth, by just working hard in a normal job, investing well and keeping your name out of the headlines.


Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2024, 04:05:30 AM »
Forgive the analogy, as I am in no way making these comparable ethically, morally, etc. etc.

The thing that comes to my mind in regard to this is Columbine. I wonder if we'll see this as a turning point where after this violence against CEOs or other representatives of parties/companies/groups with which people have grievances becomes more commonplace.

chasesfish

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2024, 04:23:09 AM »
Why stretch to amass a $100m fortune as a CEO and deal with all the shit that comes with it when you can have everything you could ever want, and generational levels of wealth, by just working hard in a normal job, investing well and keeping your name out of the headlines.

I had a number of perfectly anonymous clients that owned businesses and were worth $50mil to $150mil.   It was a sweet spot where they got to choose how public or anonymous they wanted their life to be and could earn that amount in one generation without some massive social / public footprint.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2024, 05:04:53 AM »
Forgive the analogy, as I am in no way making these comparable ethically, morally, etc. etc.

The thing that comes to my mind in regard to this is Columbine. I wonder if we'll see this as a turning point where after this violence against CEOs or other representatives of parties/companies/groups with which people have grievances becomes more commonplace.

It's already commonplace that people shoot each other over grievances. For example there are many instances of doctors and healthcare staff being murdered over perceived blame for a family member's death or even for refusing to prescribe opioids. 

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2024, 05:14:04 AM »
Forgive the analogy, as I am in no way making these comparable ethically, morally, etc. etc.

The thing that comes to my mind in regard to this is Columbine. I wonder if we'll see this as a turning point where after this violence against CEOs or other representatives of parties/companies/groups with which people have grievances becomes more commonplace.

It's already commonplace that people shoot each other over grievances. For example there are many instances of doctors and healthcare staff being murdered over perceived blame for a family member's death or even for refusing to prescribe opioids.

Oh certainly. I'm specifically referring to shooting a figure head/representative or someone in a position of authority in an organization. Someone that you haven't directly interacted with but who represents the organization to the shooter.

LaineyAZ

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2024, 07:19:53 AM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening. 

GilesMM

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2024, 08:01:25 AM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.


The assassination seems meticulously planned.  Let's hope the shooter doesn't go on an Andrew Cunanan spree next.

sonofsven

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2024, 08:18:52 AM »
I say it's the wife.

iluvzbeach

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2024, 08:29:03 AM »

iluvzbeach

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2024, 08:30:50 AM »
Forgive the analogy, as I am in no way making these comparable ethically, morally, etc. etc.

The thing that comes to my mind in regard to this is Columbine. I wonder if we'll see this as a turning point where after this violence against CEOs or other representatives of parties/companies/groups with which people have grievances becomes more commonplace.

It's already commonplace that people shoot each other over grievances. For example there are many instances of doctors and healthcare staff being murdered over perceived blame for a family member's death or even for refusing to prescribe opioids.

Oh certainly. I'm specifically referring to shooting a figure head/representative or someone in a position of authority in an organization. Someone that you haven't directly interacted with but who represents the organization to the shooter.

Yes, the type of thing we've seen happen in other countries but not routinely in the U.S.  Reminds me of stuff we hear about in Mexico or Central/South American countries.

GuitarStv

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2024, 08:42:19 AM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.

It's an interesting moral question.

You have a person who committed a single murder (bad).  The person who was murdered though, is responsible for running the company that has killed thousands through denial of care.

If the murderer manages to change the way that the next person running the company does things and that saves just two of those thousands of lives, there's a pretty clear argument that it is morally justified (legality aside).

But there's also the scenario where the system that has been created simply guaranteed that any rich guy running an insurance company will kill people who need health care in order to save money.  In that case the murder of the CEO doesn't serve a purpose.  He'll simply be replaced with another CEO who will continue to do the same thing.  (And in that case, I'd argue that there's really no point in having a CEO as he just seems to function as an overpaid figurehead with no power or responsibility.)

Dancin'Dog

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2024, 08:54:26 AM »
I wonder if this changes Trump's "concept of a plan"? 

Villanelle

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2024, 09:23:53 AM »
I say it's the wife.

Agreed.

Interesting.  This hadn't occurred to me, but I suppose it would make sense to make it look like a disgruntled patient or family member (especially when you know those are in no short supply) to divert attention.  One thing that gives me pause though is that it seems like this was pretty amateurish, so this doesn't seem like an expert killer hired by the wife.  It could be a non-professional (like a lover, perhaps?) but that makes it seem more likely, to me, that the shooter was the one with the issue, not some hired killer or puppet for the wife.

I guess time will tell (assuming they catch him).

BECABECA

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2024, 09:39:58 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2024, 09:54:51 AM »
If nothing else, this week's response from insurance customers, health providers, nurses, and family members of people who have died as a result of these policies should serve as a message to health insurance companies that they are almost universally disliked, resented, and even hated.  Full disclosure - I have worked in the health insurance industry for a couple of decades now, including a short stint at United Health, and I can say that their employees are not treated much better than their customers at this point.  There is lots of resentment to go around.  I didn't always feel this way about the industry, and some companies are definitely better than others (UHG is probably the low point) but it seems to only get worse over time and people are very, very frustrated.

Psychstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2024, 10:17:34 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

Call me cynical, but I can imagine that they will reintroduce this policy in a few months when the media circus moves on. In a few months, they can wait to sneak in a policy update late on a Friday while the medica is focused on how Donald Trump has tweeted a new plan to give the Michigan Peninsula to Wisconsin because Gretchen Whitmer said mean things about him.

Metalcat

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2024, 10:24:56 AM »
If nothing else, this week's response from insurance customers, health providers, nurses, and family members of people who have died as a result of these policies should serve as a message to health insurance companies that they are almost universally disliked, resented, and even hated.  Full disclosure - I have worked in the health insurance industry for a couple of decades now, including a short stint at United Health, and I can say that their employees are not treated much better than their customers at this point.  There is lots of resentment to go around.  I didn't always feel this way about the industry, and some companies are definitely better than others (UHG is probably the low point) but it seems to only get worse over time and people are very, very frustrated.

Is it at all a surprise to these companies that they're universally hated though??

BECABECA

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2024, 10:29:42 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

Call me cynical, but I can imagine that they will reintroduce this policy in a few months when the media circus moves on. In a few months, they can wait to sneak in a policy update late on a Friday while the medica is focused on how Donald Trump has tweeted a new plan to give the Michigan Peninsula to Wisconsin because Gretchen Whitmer said mean things about him.
Haha, totally, but at least it’s a few months reprieve… get your surgeries in now, don’t wait until the policy gets reinstated!

chasesfish

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2024, 10:41:03 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

FWIW, CMS hasn't changed the policy.  This just delays it.   The insurers will follow what medicare dictates.

There was no outrage when CMS did this earlier in the year.

jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2024, 10:54:24 AM »
If nothing else, this week's response from insurance customers, health providers, nurses, and family members of people who have died as a result of these policies should serve as a message to health insurance companies that they are almost universally disliked, resented, and even hated.  Full disclosure - I have worked in the health insurance industry for a couple of decades now, including a short stint at United Health, and I can say that their employees are not treated much better than their customers at this point.  There is lots of resentment to go around.  I didn't always feel this way about the industry, and some companies are definitely better than others (UHG is probably the low point) but it seems to only get worse over time and people are very, very frustrated.

Is it at all a surprise to these companies that they're universally hated though??

Hmm.  How to put this delicately...yes, I am active in some insurance forums and there were several people this week who expressed surprise/shock at the response to the UHG death.  If you haven't personally yet had a bad health situation where you or a close family member had an unfavorable experience with an insurance company and if you don't work in customer service/pre-auths/denials areas of the company, I do think you might buy the positive mission statements/propaganda and the rah-rah town halls for a while, but experience breeds cynicism.

jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2024, 10:55:05 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

FWIW, CMS hasn't changed the policy.  This just delays it.   The insurers will follow what medicare dictates.

There was no outrage when CMS did this earlier in the year.

This was the first I'd heard of this.  Is no one protesting the Medicare policy at all?

Samuel

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2024, 11:41:03 AM »
Some positive change coming out of this already: This has caused Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield to reverse their position on not covering anesthesia after a certain amount of time:
https://www.npr.org/2024/12/05/nx-s1-5217617/blue-cross-blue-shield-anesthesia-anthem

FWIW, CMS hasn't changed the policy.  This just delays it.   The insurers will follow what medicare dictates.

There was no outrage when CMS did this earlier in the year.

This was the first I'd heard of this.  Is no one protesting the Medicare policy at all?

CMS established guidelines and published them but from what I read they are not (yet) doing what Anthem BCBS announced they would start doing (routinely paying up to the typical amount for that procedure but requiring additional documentation showing why more anesthetic services were necessary in order to be paid for that extra time).

This is how cost controls tend to work, whether it's by CMS or private health insurers. The announcement was unfortunately timed, though.

ATtiny85

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2024, 12:28:20 PM »
I say it's the wife.

Agreed.

Interesting.  This hadn't occurred to me, but I suppose it would make sense to make it look like a disgruntled patient or family member (especially when you know those are in no short supply) to divert attention.  One thing that gives me pause though is that it seems like this was pretty amateurish, so this doesn't seem like an expert killer hired by the wife.  It could be a non-professional (like a lover, perhaps?) but that makes it seem more likely, to me, that the shooter was the one with the issue, not some hired killer or puppet for the wife.

I guess time will tell (assuming they catch him).

You must not have heard her first(?) public statements. She was already too helpful "he had death threats, more of them recently" or some such. And estranged or not, she did not sound like I would have expected.

Metalcat

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2024, 12:43:25 PM »
If nothing else, this week's response from insurance customers, health providers, nurses, and family members of people who have died as a result of these policies should serve as a message to health insurance companies that they are almost universally disliked, resented, and even hated.  Full disclosure - I have worked in the health insurance industry for a couple of decades now, including a short stint at United Health, and I can say that their employees are not treated much better than their customers at this point.  There is lots of resentment to go around.  I didn't always feel this way about the industry, and some companies are definitely better than others (UHG is probably the low point) but it seems to only get worse over time and people are very, very frustrated.

Is it at all a surprise to these companies that they're universally hated though??

Hmm.  How to put this delicately...yes, I am active in some insurance forums and there were several people this week who expressed surprise/shock at the response to the UHG death.  If you haven't personally yet had a bad health situation where you or a close family member had an unfavorable experience with an insurance company and if you don't work in customer service/pre-auths/denials areas of the company, I do think you might buy the positive mission statements/propaganda and the rah-rah town halls for a while, but experience breeds cynicism.

I suppose...but I'm not even American and it's so well established in the social discourse that US insurance companies make patients and doctors fucking miserable with their immoral cost-cutting bullshit.

You basically can't watch an American TV show without getting this very, very loud messaging that the entire system is a dystopian hellscape.

Villanelle

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2024, 12:44:47 PM »
I say it's the wife.

Agreed.

Interesting.  This hadn't occurred to me, but I suppose it would make sense to make it look like a disgruntled patient or family member (especially when you know those are in no short supply) to divert attention.  One thing that gives me pause though is that it seems like this was pretty amateurish, so this doesn't seem like an expert killer hired by the wife.  It could be a non-professional (like a lover, perhaps?) but that makes it seem more likely, to me, that the shooter was the one with the issue, not some hired killer or puppet for the wife.

I guess time will tell (assuming they catch him).

You must not have heard her first(?) public statements. She was already too helpful "he had death threats, more of them recently" or some such. And estranged or not, she did not sound like I would have expected.

I did see the statements and yeah, she didn't strick me as overly distraught.  But grief is also weird and I try to give people a lot of grace in that department, especially when they are doing portions of it publicly.  And it does seem possible that she could be not especially sad he's dead, while also not having murdered him. Unless she had a lover and got him to do it, or something like that, the details of the crime don't seem to fit.  Sure, writing "deny" on a bullet to deflect could be part of a hired hit, but the (seemingly) relative amateurishness of the execution (in both senses of the word!) doesn't seem to fit a wife-procured hit.  But I've been wrong before.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2024, 02:09:05 PM »
If it actually was the wife, that's some next level supervillain shit there.

Considering how close she lived to him, and (presumably) how well she knew his daily routines (they have kids together), it would have been much easier for her to kill him in a less attention getting way. For example, someone could have run him over while he's out walking a dog and it would have been caulked up to just a freak accident.

FireLane

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2024, 04:25:51 PM »
The rest of the developed world rations healthcare via provider shortages.

The United States rations healthcare through a third party payor system.   At best an insurer should be a speed bump to escalating healthcare costs, battling the hospital systems / pharma companies over what they can charge.   When they get into rationing care via pre-approvals, delays, and arbitrary determinations of medical necessity, the only thing surprising about this is it hasn't happened sooner.   

It's not just that for-profit insurance companies directly block people from getting medical care. There's also the ridiculous amounts of paperwork and bureaucracy that they impose. It's effectively a hidden tax on consumers, because of the extra staff that hospitals and doctors' offices are forced to hire to deal with it.

Insurance company overhead is a major part of the reason why the U.S. spends so much more on healthcare than other developed countries. According to this article, it accounts for more than a third of total healthcare spending:

https://www.reuters.com/article/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/more-than-a-third-of-us-healthcare-costs-go-to-bureaucracy-idUSKBN1Z5260/

Quote
U.S. insurers and providers spent more than $800 billion in 2017 on administration, or nearly $2,500 per person - more than four times the per-capita administrative costs in Canada's single-payer system, a new study finds.

Over one third of all healthcare costs in the U.S. were due to insurance company overhead and provider time spent on billing, versus about 17% spent on administration in Canada, researchers reported in Annals of Internal Medicine.

LaineyAZ

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2024, 05:24:18 PM »
I agree, and it's also an indirect drain on businesses.

Employees dealing with health care insurers and administrators mainly have to do so during typical office hours, Mon-Fri,
9am to 5pm.  Meaning workers have to take time during the workday to try to appeal claims denials or fix snafus instead of doing their job.
I worked in cubicle-land for many years and overheard scores of conversations from co-workers who were forced to handle these things in a not so private workspace. 
I always wondered why private corporations didn't insist on Medicare for all for this reason alone:  it would eliminate the many hours their employees had to spend on this and let them spend that time focused on their jobs instead. 

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twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2024, 06:30:10 PM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.

It's an interesting moral question.

You have a person who committed a single murder (bad).  The person who was murdered though, is responsible for running the company that has killed thousands through denial of care.

If the murderer manages to change the way that the next person running the company does things and that saves just two of those thousands of lives, there's a pretty clear argument that it is morally justified (legality aside).

But there's also the scenario where the system that has been created simply guaranteed that any rich guy running an insurance company will kill people who need health care in order to save money.  In that case the murder of the CEO doesn't serve a purpose.  He'll simply be replaced with another CEO who will continue to do the same thing.  (And in that case, I'd argue that there's really no point in having a CEO as he just seems to function as an overpaid figurehead with no power or responsibility.)

Your argument that a denial of resources which leads to someone's death can be equated with a wilful causing of a death can lead to many difficult moral questions being asked. I don't see the moral equivalence at all.

Glenstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2024, 06:45:21 PM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.

It's an interesting moral question.

You have a person who committed a single murder (bad).  The person who was murdered though, is responsible for running the company that has killed thousands through denial of care.

If the murderer manages to change the way that the next person running the company does things and that saves just two of those thousands of lives, there's a pretty clear argument that it is morally justified (legality aside).

But there's also the scenario where the system that has been created simply guaranteed that any rich guy running an insurance company will kill people who need health care in order to save money.  In that case the murder of the CEO doesn't serve a purpose.  He'll simply be replaced with another CEO who will continue to do the same thing.  (And in that case, I'd argue that there's really no point in having a CEO as he just seems to function as an overpaid figurehead with no power or responsibility.)

Your argument that a denial of resources which leads to someone's death can be equated with a wilful causing of a death can lead to many difficult moral questions being asked. I don't see the moral equivalence at all.

Technically, denying insurance coverage would not be homicide or manslaughter, even though it is morally reprehensible. This is because there is no assumed intent to do harm. In this case, it is an entity choosing to have money instead of paying for care. Apparently willingness to do harm in the name of greed is not intent to do harm.

I think that if we are going to have an insurance based medical system, that we should have a formal malpractice type liablity for the insurance decisions. Any person making claim decisions should have personal liability or some structure to make liabillity for health insurance companies actually have teeth. Perhaps there should be a licensure for decision making that affects medical care distribution. Malpractice type action can result in your loss of ability to work in the field. Automated claim review should have strick guardrails.

I personally think that it would be appropriate to not allow insurance providers to be for-profit. The incentive structures do not align for a public good. The market efficiencies are only leveraged to increase profit, which - as middlemen - can only come through increased gap between premiums and care paid for.


Morning Glory

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2024, 06:47:45 PM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.

It's an interesting moral question.

You have a person who committed a single murder (bad).  The person who was murdered though, is responsible for running the company that has killed thousands through denial of care.

If the murderer manages to change the way that the next person running the company does things and that saves just two of those thousands of lives, there's a pretty clear argument that it is morally justified (legality aside).

But there's also the scenario where the system that has been created simply guaranteed that any rich guy running an insurance company will kill people who need health care in order to save money.  In that case the murder of the CEO doesn't serve a purpose.  He'll simply be replaced with another CEO who will continue to do the same thing.  (And in that case, I'd argue that there's really no point in having a CEO as he just seems to function as an overpaid figurehead with no power or responsibility.)

Your argument that a denial of resources which leads to someone's death can be equated with a wilful causing of a death can lead to many difficult moral questions being asked. I don't see the moral equivalence at all.

Come back after you Google "price famine".

twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2024, 06:57:32 PM »
I'm waiting to see when they catch this guy whether the jurors on his trial will go rogue, ala O.J. Simpson's jury.

Given the public reaction to date I can honestly seeing that scenario happening.

It's an interesting moral question.

You have a person who committed a single murder (bad).  The person who was murdered though, is responsible for running the company that has killed thousands through denial of care.

If the murderer manages to change the way that the next person running the company does things and that saves just two of those thousands of lives, there's a pretty clear argument that it is morally justified (legality aside).

But there's also the scenario where the system that has been created simply guaranteed that any rich guy running an insurance company will kill people who need health care in order to save money.  In that case the murder of the CEO doesn't serve a purpose.  He'll simply be replaced with another CEO who will continue to do the same thing.  (And in that case, I'd argue that there's really no point in having a CEO as he just seems to function as an overpaid figurehead with no power or responsibility.)

Your argument that a denial of resources which leads to someone's death can be equated with a wilful causing of a death can lead to many difficult moral questions being asked. I don't see the moral equivalence at all.

Technically, denying insurance coverage would not be homicide or manslaughter, even though it is morally reprehensible. This is because there is no assumed intent to do harm. In this case, it is an entity choosing to have money instead of paying for care. Apparently willingness to do harm in the name of greed is not intent to do harm.

I think that if we are going to have an insurance based medical system, that we should have a formal malpractice type liablity for the insurance decisions. Any person making claim decisions should have personal liability or some structure to make liabillity for health insurance companies actually have teeth. Perhaps there should be a licensure for decision making that affects medical care distribution. Malpractice type action can result in your loss of ability to work in the field. Automated claim review should have strick guardrails.

I personally think that it would be appropriate to not allow insurance providers to be for-profit. The incentive structures do not align for a public good. The market efficiencies are only leveraged to increase profit, which - as middlemen - can only come through increased gap between premiums and care paid for.

A few things:

1. Not every case of denying insurance coverage is morally reprehensible. It depends if the insurance term was disclosed transparently and is interpreted reasonably. If a term of insurance is that pre-existing conditions are not covered and the insurer refuses a claim that relates to a pre-existing condition, then there's no moral difficulty there at all. I am sure that some insurers act immorally, but that doesn't mean that every insurer act is immoral.

2. I disagree that the greedy keeping of money (which then results in a bad outcome for someone else) is the same as a willingness to do harm. You could otherwise use the argument against anyone who hoards money instead of giving it to charity; anyone who puts up rent on her investment property when the rent increase is driven purely by greed or market economics; any lawyer who refuses to do legal aid work and does only high-paying private legal work (or the corresponding doctor); etc etc.

As for insurers forced to be not private, we have a National Disability Insurance Scheme in Australia where the government pays for medical and disability services for a small portion of the population which has a disability. Fewer than 2.5% of Australians are on the NDIS, but total spending on NDIS now exceeds total Medicare spending on everyone else combined. So I don't know that a public system is any more efficient.

the_gastropod

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2024, 07:13:40 PM »
A few things:

1. Not every case of denying insurance coverage is morally reprehensible. It depends if the insurance term was disclosed transparently and is interpreted reasonably. If a term of insurance is that pre-existing conditions are not covered and the insurer refuses a claim that relates to a pre-existing condition, then there's no moral difficulty there at all. I am sure that some insurers act immorally, but that doesn't mean that every insurer act is immoral.

In the U.S., one key piece of the ACA is that it prohibits the use of pre-existing conditions to deny coverage, increase premiums, or make people wait for care. So this example would not only be morally reprehensible, but also (thankfully) illegal.

2. I disagree that the greedy keeping of money (which then results in a bad outcome for someone else) is the same as a willingness to do harm. You could otherwise use the argument against anyone who hoards money instead of giving it to charity; anyone who puts up rent on her investment property when the rent increase is driven purely by greed or market economics; any lawyer who refuses to do legal aid work and does only high-paying private legal work (or the corresponding doctor); etc etc.

Yes, there are, of course, degrees to things. United Healthcare was particularly egregious in denying claims and making patients' lives difficult. They deny twice the national average (1 of every 3 claims). And they relied on Artificial Intelligence to process (and deny) claims, 90% of which were overturned when challenged. This is pretty damn inexcusable. We don't yet know the assassin's motives, but being on the other end of such an outrageous claim dispute, either for himself or a family member, puts him pretty close to "justifiable" territory, for me. The executives of these companies do not understand humanity—they understand dollar bills only.

As for insurers forced to be not private, we have a National Disability Insurance Scheme in Australia where the government pays for medical and disability services for a small portion of the population which has a disability. Fewer than 2.5% of Australians are on the NDIS, but total spending on NDIS now exceeds total Medicare spending on everyone else combined. So I don't know that a public system is any more efficient.

I won't claim to know anything about Australian healthcare. But I know the U.S. healthcare system. And we pay more than any other country on the planet. And have significantly worse results to show for it. The life expectancy in the U.S. is 77 years old. Australia, for example, has a life expectancy of 83 years old. The U.S. spends twice as much per capita as Australia does on healthcare.

Glenstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2024, 07:18:35 PM »
...

A few things:

1. Not every case of denying insurance coverage is morally reprehensible. It depends if the insurance term was disclosed transparently and is interpreted reasonably. If a term of insurance is that pre-existing conditions are not covered and the insurer refuses a claim that relates to a pre-existing condition, then there's no moral difficulty there at all. I am sure that some insurers act immorally, but that doesn't mean that every insurer act is immoral.

2. I disagree that the greedy keeping of money (which then results in a bad outcome for someone else) is the same as a willingness to do harm. You could otherwise use the argument against anyone who hoards money instead of giving it to charity; anyone who puts up rent on her investment property when the rent increase is driven purely by greed or market economics; any lawyer who refuses to do legal aid work and does only high-paying private legal work (or the corresponding doctor); etc etc.

As for insurers forced to be not private, we have a National Disability Insurance Scheme in Australia where the government pays for medical and disability services for a small portion of the population which has a disability. Fewer than 2.5% of Australians are on the NDIS, but total spending on NDIS now exceeds total Medicare spending on everyone else combined. So I don't know that a public system is any more efficient.

For 1 and 2: insurance companies are not allowed to exclude pre existing conditions under the ACA. I also agree that it is reasonable that a fraction of insurance claims are not legitimate and should be denied. I think that the cases we are talking about here are ones where the procedure or medication is recommended by a doctor, is medically necessary, and shoudl be covered under the terms of their insurance. The absolute prevalence of this type of activity indicates that it is a structural goal of many of these companies. If the structural goal is to find reasons to deny claims (thus increasing profits), it is reasonable to infer that they are willing to do harm by denying payment for medical services. 

For 3: in most insurance pools/populations, a small number of parties account for the majority of expenses. If a system is set up to cover a specific population with a reasonably expected higher medical cost (such as those with disabilities) the per capita cost should be expected to be much higher assuming constant system efficiency.

Insurance companies in the US profit more when there is more administrative load. Capitalism drives towards efficient profits, and will not drive towards competitive efficiency in delivering services.

An anecdotal aside/example is the difference between public utility districts and private utility districts. PUDs, in my experience, operate their systems better, are more responsive to the public, and are less expensive.

twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2024, 07:31:51 PM »
It’s interesting that you can’t deny coverage for pre-existing conditions in the U.S.

Of all the morally reprehensible things that US insurers do, I feel that hypothetically increasing premiums or instituting a waiting period for pre-existing conditions would be nowhere near the top of the list. Forcing all insurers to cover for pre-existing conditions raises premiums, and leads to adverse selection. It would be like a car insurer having to assume that you’ve had your licence suspended in the past, when in fact most of us haven’t.

I have no doubt that some insurer practices are immoral and deceptive – including the use of AI to process claims. I work in litigation and sometimes I act against insurers (sometimes I act for them) and I see the gamut of conduct from good faith to bad faith. To the extent that they make bad faith decisions, they deserve criticism. If it's bad faith to a criminal standard, they deserve punishment. But the immorality lies in the deceptiveness of a decision or the failure to abide by terms. It doesn’t lie in the deprivation of resources as such.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2024, 07:38:30 PM »
Technically, denying insurance coverage would not be homicide or manslaughter, even though it is morally reprehensible. This is because there is no assumed intent to do harm. In this case, it is an entity choosing to have money instead of paying for care. Apparently willingness to do harm in the name of greed is not intent to do harm.
Intent to do harm is not required for negligent homicide.

JLee

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2024, 07:39:21 PM »
It’s interesting that you can’t deny coverage for pre-existing conditions in the U.S.

Of all the morally reprehensible things that US insurers do, I feel that hypothetically increasing premiums or instituting a waiting period for pre-existing conditions would be nowhere near the top of the list. Forcing all insurers to cover for pre-existing conditions raises premiums, and leads to adverse selection. It would be like a car insurer having to assume that you’ve had your licence suspended in the past, when in fact most of us haven’t.

I have no doubt that some insurer practices are immoral and deceptive – including the use of AI to process claims. I work in litigation and sometimes I act against insurers (sometimes I act for them) and I see the gamut of conduct from good faith to bad faith. To the extent that they make bad faith decisions, they deserve criticism. If it's bad faith to a criminal standard, they deserve punishment. But the immorality lies in the deceptiveness of a decision or the failure to abide by terms. It doesn’t lie in the deprivation of resources as such.

You could before the Affordable Care Act in 2010.

 

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