Author Topic: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead  (Read 19002 times)

SilentC

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #250 on: December 11, 2024, 10:03:11 AM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".

Have you actually received much healthcare (or read about problems with denials and “AI” auto-denials)?  There are probably a lot of people in this camp, but a lot of the stuff people are upset about is how UHC and others try to ration it to people who pay for it and it’s covered benefits. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #251 on: December 11, 2024, 10:09:46 AM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?
The overhead created/needed for administration of the inefficient insurance method of doing health care is significant and employs millions of people.  Useless and net negatives for society though they may be, a lot of people would be out of jobs if health care in the US was fixed.
This is the gist of the problem in a country where dollars buy voters.

Once an inefficient or destructive activity becomes an industry, government policy is unable to affect it. Instead, the industry affects government policy, perpetuating itself and its harms. Tobacco, fossil fuels, automobiles, and fast food all did their damage, in the same way as the insurance lobby works today.

Many of the millions of people employed to squabble over who pays for whose healthcare (including the portion of time spent by healthcare providers) might as well be employed digging holes and filling them back in. Hole digging/filling started as a humorous suggestion by John Maynard Keynes for how to increase employment and GDP during the Great Depression, but it is essentially what we are doing now with all the futile activity around healthcare payments.

"Healthcare" is now the 3rd largest sector in the S&P500, comprising 12.6% of market cap. Some of that would be necessary even in a single-payer system with private providers, like REITs, pharmaceuticals, and service provision. Proponents of single-payer are essentially talking about deleting the business models for a large chunk of the stock market - perhaps 2-5% of it? And as efficiencies were realized that reduced healthcare spending, GDP would go down. Add a possible recession to the political costs! Everyone would be mad about the job losses, recession, and stock market losses, even if we were able to eradicate most rent-seeking from the insurance world, unleash small business formation from the requirement to offer expensive benefits plans, and save thousands of lives.

It all returns to the American consensus that GDP and stock market growth are to be maximized at any cost. We can't agree to pay the costs described above, but we can generally agree to make the numbers go up. Whoever dies in the process just dies. It's really hard to balance the risks of being extorted by exorbitant insurance rates or denied care, versus the risk of losing one's job and having one's stock investments decline. Those in ex-US countries who are not paralyzed by this debate should feel lucky not to have even started down this pathway.

The root problem, as with all problems in a prosperous democracy, is that money can buy our votes. We're too plugged into media/social media, and not thinking clearly enough about our own interests.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #252 on: December 11, 2024, 10:26:01 AM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".

Perhaps you have a good employer plan where your out of pocket expenses are affordable and predictable, and you dont have to fight for every service to be covered. Maybe your local hospital is in network and even has doctors who are employees so you dont have to worry about surprise out-of-network bills, and if you get admitted or have surgery you wont pay more than your in network oop max. Good for you.  That is not everyone's experience.

Villanelle

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #253 on: December 11, 2024, 10:30:58 AM »
I'm overall very happy with my plan, though I admit it's not perfect.  But I'm also aware enough of other's experiences that I can acknowledge our system is incredibly broken.  To say otherwise seems to me like saying our justice system doesn't need reform,  because I've never been falsely arrested or convicted, or beaten by a cop. 

mm1970

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #254 on: December 11, 2024, 10:52:26 AM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".
This may be a pretty privileged take.
How much do you use it?
Who pays for it?  Is it an employer sponsored plan?  If so, how much does your employer pay?  (My employer pays roughly 70-80% of my premium costs.)
Do you have any pre-existing conditions?  Are you healthy?  Are you on any special medications?  Do you have back pain, celiac, Crohns, Lupus?

TLDR, whether or not you are happy with your health care depends on how much you need it and what you pay for it.  Using it for an annual physical and some occasional pharm benefits and maybe a physical therapist for injury is a FAR cry from having an infant in the NICU, dealing with long term disease or emergency surgery, chronic pain, etc.

wenchsenior

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #255 on: December 11, 2024, 11:59:47 AM »
I'm overall very happy with my plan, though I admit it's not perfect.  But I'm also aware enough of other's experiences that I can acknowledge our system is incredibly broken.  To say otherwise seems to me like saying our justice system doesn't need reform,  because I've never been falsely arrested or convicted, or beaten by a cop.

I am pretty happy with ours as well, and I have a fuck ton of chronic incurable health conditions that require a lot of specialist visits and testing regularly. We are very lucky.

rocketpj

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #256 on: December 11, 2024, 12:00:57 PM »
The purpose of a system is what it does.  In the case of much of the US Health System, the system maximizes profits.  It is constructed to do that - 50 years of Friedmanist ideology has created this system.  'Maximizing shareholder value' has been the defining religion of economics for most of the past few decades, with a careful ignoring of any nuance in the terms 'shareholder' or 'value'.  The CEO who died was just an exemplar of a system that does not exist to do what everyone seems to think it is supposed to do.

If you are required to maximize and increase profits every year you are eventually expected to do the impossible.  Demanding the impossible will almost always result in the unethical.  Probably some of the people whose claims were unjustly denied were 'shareholders' of UHA, but I doubt their 'value' was maximized when they were killed to preserve their stock price.  Certainly almost everyone on this forum is at least indirectly a shareholder in almost all of the 'Health Industry' (?lol?) in the US, but our value isn't served when people we care about are harmed by that system of maximization of profits to the exclusion of all other concepts or values.

It isn't just health, though that is an obvious and easy symptom of a much larger disease.  Nobody is served by a maximization of profits at the expense of our planet's carrying capacity, yet oil company execs will be fired or sued if they don't do just that.  Even the actual shareholders are harmed by that maximization, but with the childishly simplistic current understanding of what a company is supposed to do, the result is inevitable.  Health companies have acquired enough capital to capture every regulatory system that might limit their ability to maximize profits through harm.  The political system is incapable in its current form of changing that, and the legal system is even less useful.

I wish it wasn't so, but I suspect there will be a lot more of this kind of thing.  If you forbid all forms of peaceful change, you inevitably get violent change.  Which is messy, and usually does more harm than good.  But wow, if my kid was dying and an algorithm decided that she should suffer because shareholder value I would be very, very angry and upset.  In a country that has raised the fetish of 'man with a gun' to a near religion, I am actually astonished that there isn't more of this stuff already. 

SilentC

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #257 on: December 11, 2024, 12:38:05 PM »
The purpose of a system is what it does.  In the case of much of the US Health System, the system maximizes profits.  It is constructed to do that - 50 years of Friedmanist ideology has created this system.  'Maximizing shareholder value' has been the defining religion of economics for most of the past few decades, with a careful ignoring of any nuance in the terms 'shareholder' or 'value'.  The CEO who died was just an exemplar of a system that does not exist to do what everyone seems to think it is supposed to do.

If you are required to maximize and increase profits every year you are eventually expected to do the impossible.  Demanding the impossible will almost always result in the unethical.  Probably some of the people whose claims were unjustly denied were 'shareholders' of UHA, but I doubt their 'value' was maximized when they were killed to preserve their stock price.  Certainly almost everyone on this forum is at least indirectly a shareholder in almost all of the 'Health Industry' (?lol?) in the US, but our value isn't served when people we care about are harmed by that system of maximization of profits to the exclusion of all other concepts or values.

It isn't just health, though that is an obvious and easy symptom of a much larger disease.  Nobody is served by a maximization of profits at the expense of our planet's carrying capacity, yet oil company execs will be fired or sued if they don't do just that.  Even the actual shareholders are harmed by that maximization, but with the childishly simplistic current understanding of what a company is supposed to do, the result is inevitable.  Health companies have acquired enough capital to capture every regulatory system that might limit their ability to maximize profits through harm.  The political system is incapable in its current form of changing that, and the legal system is even less useful.

I wish it wasn't so, but I suspect there will be a lot more of this kind of thing.  If you forbid all forms of peaceful change, you inevitably get violent change.  Which is messy, and usually does more harm than good.  But wow, if my kid was dying and an algorithm decided that she should suffer because shareholder value I would be very, very angry and upset.  In a country that has raised the fetish of 'man with a gun' to a near religion, I am actually astonished that there isn't more of this stuff already.


This is well articulated.

dividendman

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #258 on: December 11, 2024, 12:49:04 PM »

RetiredAt63

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #259 on: December 11, 2024, 02:04:10 PM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".

Umm, health care in countries with universal coverage isn't free.  We know it isn't free.  It is paid for by our taxes.  You know those countries with high income tax and business tax and so on?  That money is going to pay for health care, education and other social programs. 

For instance, my health coverage in Ontario is OHIP.  That stands for Ontario Health Insurance Plan.  Note the word insurance in there.  My health costs get billed to OHIP, it is my insurance plan, and the plan of every other Ontario resident.  And we all know darn well that part of our provincial taxes (and since the federal government subsidizes the provinces, some of our federal taxes as well) go to it.

HPstache

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #260 on: December 11, 2024, 02:12:55 PM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".
This may be a pretty privileged take.
How much do you use it?
Who pays for it?  Is it an employer sponsored plan?  If so, how much does your employer pay?  (My employer pays roughly 70-80% of my premium costs.)
Do you have any pre-existing conditions?  Are you healthy?  Are you on any special medications?  Do you have back pain, celiac, Crohns, Lupus?

TLDR, whether or not you are happy with your health care depends on how much you need it and what you pay for it.  Using it for an annual physical and some occasional pharm benefits and maybe a physical therapist for injury is a FAR cry from having an infant in the NICU, dealing with long term disease or emergency surgery, chronic pain, etc.

I'm just responding to the "no one seems happy with their healthcare" and saying, along with others apparently, that I am happy with it.  I'm a very healthy individual, but with my entire 5-person family on the plan we've had our fair share of ER visits, medications, 3 hospital deliveries (one being a c-sect), etc.  The plan is a work sponsored HDHP that I pay a portion of.  We've had a few "gotcha" denials of coverage, such as one I can remember very clearly was opting to get what turned out to be an extremely expensive DNA test of our 1st child that wasn't covered.  I get that it's broken for a lot of people, but I really don't have any complaints about how it's been for me and my family for the last 20 years or so since I've been on my own.

Metalcat

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #261 on: December 11, 2024, 03:08:39 PM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".
This may be a pretty privileged take.
How much do you use it?
Who pays for it?  Is it an employer sponsored plan?  If so, how much does your employer pay?  (My employer pays roughly 70-80% of my premium costs.)
Do you have any pre-existing conditions?  Are you healthy?  Are you on any special medications?  Do you have back pain, celiac, Crohns, Lupus?

TLDR, whether or not you are happy with your health care depends on how much you need it and what you pay for it.  Using it for an annual physical and some occasional pharm benefits and maybe a physical therapist for injury is a FAR cry from having an infant in the NICU, dealing with long term disease or emergency surgery, chronic pain, etc.

I'm just responding to the "no one seems happy with their healthcare" and saying, along with others apparently, that I am happy with it.  I'm a very healthy individual, but with my entire 5-person family on the plan we've had our fair share of ER visits, medications, 3 hospital deliveries (one being a c-sect), etc.  The plan is a work sponsored HDHP that I pay a portion of.  We've had a few "gotcha" denials of coverage, such as one I can remember very clearly was opting to get what turned out to be an extremely expensive DNA test of our 1st child that wasn't covered.  I get that it's broken for a lot of people, but I really don't have any complaints about how it's been for me and my family for the last 20 years or so since I've been on my own.

This is the same way that generally healthy people in Canada are pretty happy with our healthcare system despite the fact that systemic underfunding and neglect combined with the pandemic have plunged it into a tailspin.

Generally healthy people tend to have very little understanding of why people hate healthcare systems. It's the same way that people who've mostly only ever had cleanings don't understand why so many people hate dentists.

RetiredAt63

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #262 on: December 11, 2024, 03:18:29 PM »
No one seems happy with their healthcare. How come there is not more common consensus across the aisle to move to a better coverage, lower cost solution like single payer? Other than the ceos of health nsurance companies, who is for for-profit health insurers controlling access to healthcare?

FWIW I am happy with my health care.  Maybe the difference is I don't expect it to be "free".
This may be a pretty privileged take.
How much do you use it?
Who pays for it?  Is it an employer sponsored plan?  If so, how much does your employer pay?  (My employer pays roughly 70-80% of my premium costs.)
Do you have any pre-existing conditions?  Are you healthy?  Are you on any special medications?  Do you have back pain, celiac, Crohns, Lupus?

TLDR, whether or not you are happy with your health care depends on how much you need it and what you pay for it.  Using it for an annual physical and some occasional pharm benefits and maybe a physical therapist for injury is a FAR cry from having an infant in the NICU, dealing with long term disease or emergency surgery, chronic pain, etc.

I'm just responding to the "no one seems happy with their healthcare" and saying, along with others apparently, that I am happy with it.  I'm a very healthy individual, but with my entire 5-person family on the plan we've had our fair share of ER visits, medications, 3 hospital deliveries (one being a c-sect), etc.  The plan is a work sponsored HDHP that I pay a portion of.  We've had a few "gotcha" denials of coverage, such as one I can remember very clearly was opting to get what turned out to be an extremely expensive DNA test of our 1st child that wasn't covered.  I get that it's broken for a lot of people, but I really don't have any complaints about how it's been for me and my family for the last 20 years or so since I've been on my own.

This is the same way that generally healthy people in Canada are pretty happy with our healthcare system despite the fact that systemic underfunding and neglect combined with the pandemic have plunged it into a tailspin.

Generally healthy people tend to have very little understanding of why people hate healthcare systems. It's the same way that people who've mostly only ever had cleanings don't understand why so many people hate dentists.

Are we happy? 

I mean, I am glad that my heath care is looked after by OHIP.

But I am so pissed at Ford for wanting to shift funding to private care.  He is such a stereotypical old-style Conservative (get his friends wealthy and screw the rest of us).  I do know that when people I know have had emergencies (post Covid) they have been taken care of.  The not so urgent takes too long, we all know that.  And I know of one doctor who should no longer be in in practice at his hospital, but I am guessing they are so short of staff that they have kept him.  With the shift to the right across the country I am not sure what we can do other than trying to keep Conservatives out of office (PP) or get them out of office (Ford, Smith, etc.).

Villanelle

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #263 on: December 11, 2024, 03:50:03 PM »
I guess it depends: is the question whether I'm happy with *my* healthcare, or happy with healthcare?  The answers are yes and no, respectively. 

MrGreen

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #264 on: December 11, 2024, 04:01:41 PM »
I'd imagine for a lot of folks it depends on income level. For our family of 3, going over the ACA subsidy cliff of $103,000 (which I'm sure will be returning under Republicans) would mean we are responsible for our entire health insurance premium. The cheapest bronze plan in our state has premiums of $13,200. So at an income $1 over the cliff, our health insurance premiums become 12.8% of our annual income. That's before we've spent the first dollar on actual healthcare, and it's for an insurance plan with a $15,000 family deductible. If you have any kind of ongoing health needs, you're potentially looking at upwards of five figures in actual medical costs per year. I suspect a family losing ~20% of their income each year to healthcare alone would indeed be unhappy with their health insurance. Add in federal taxes, state taxes, and FICA taxes and that's probably close to 50% of a ~$103,000 gross income gone before the first dollar is spent on regular day-to-day living expenses.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #265 on: December 11, 2024, 04:23:27 PM »
It would be ironic if after a few CEOs get gunned down, gun control becomes a hot topic on the right.
Based on the court filings, it seems like Luigi used a 3D printed ghost gun. Short of banning all ammunition sales (and justifying all the "they're coming for our guns!" hype), there's not much that could have been done to prevent the murder.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #266 on: December 11, 2024, 05:01:53 PM »
It would be ironic if after a few CEOs get gunned down, gun control becomes a hot topic on the right.
Based on the court filings, it seems like Luigi used a 3D printed ghost gun. Short of banning all ammunition sales (and justifying all the "they're coming for our guns!" hype), there's not much that could have been done to prevent the murder.
It is an interesting thought experiment to see if gun control will have more traction in response to rich CEOs getting gunned down than in response to rafts of school children getting gunned down.

JLee

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #267 on: December 12, 2024, 08:16:35 AM »
It would be ironic if after a few CEOs get gunned down, gun control becomes a hot topic on the right.
Based on the court filings, it seems like Luigi used a 3D printed ghost gun. Short of banning all ammunition sales (and justifying all the "they're coming for our guns!" hype), there's not much that could have been done to prevent the murder.

He was a few feet away - even if guns didn't exist, there are plenty of other portable options for something so up close and personal.

GuitarStv

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #268 on: December 12, 2024, 08:50:34 AM »
It would be ironic if after a few CEOs get gunned down, gun control becomes a hot topic on the right.
Based on the court filings, it seems like Luigi used a 3D printed ghost gun. Short of banning all ammunition sales (and justifying all the "they're coming for our guns!" hype), there's not much that could have been done to prevent the murder.

He was a few feet away - even if guns didn't exist, there are plenty of other portable options for something so up close and personal.

It's certainly possible, but is much harder to murder someone without a gun.  A gun is effectively instant, and doesn't require effort beyond moving a finger.  Physically stabbing someone multiple times, garroting them, or bludgeoning them to death with a baseball bat requires a very different mindset and a lot more physical effort.  They also tend to be more survivable attacks by the victim.  Guns exist solely to make killing stuff simple and effortless.

ATtiny85

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #269 on: December 12, 2024, 11:03:03 AM »
It would be ironic if after a few CEOs get gunned down, gun control becomes a hot topic on the right.
Based on the court filings, it seems like Luigi used a 3D printed ghost gun. Short of banning all ammunition sales (and justifying all the "they're coming for our guns!" hype), there's not much that could have been done to prevent the murder.

He was a few feet away - even if guns didn't exist, there are plenty of other portable options for something so up close and personal.

Pretty impressive that he got the kill actually. Looked like a couple meters or more. That’s a tougher shot, especially with a printed gun, than the Trump shooter missed. Of course, the Trump guy knew he was discovered, but still.

I have fired thousands of rounds through all sorts of weapons, and I would have wanted to close the gap considerably. He was one cool customer, clearing a jam, or whatever else happened, and still scored a lethal hit.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #270 on: December 12, 2024, 01:30:39 PM »
The memes on F/b are all over the place.  One struck me.  Some neo-lib explaining they feel the same way about Luigi and neocons feel about Kyle Rittenhouse.  A flawed hero but the one they have been waiting for...

dividendman

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #271 on: December 12, 2024, 01:51:07 PM »
The memes on F/b are all over the place.  One struck me.  Some neo-lib explaining they feel the same way about Luigi and neocons feel about Kyle Rittenhouse.  A flawed hero but the one they have been waiting for...

Let's see if Luigi tries to employ a justifiable homicide defense... "The CEO was about to go to a meeting and condemn many more people to death. I had to stop him!"

mathlete

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #272 on: December 14, 2024, 04:09:25 PM »
For what it’s worth, according to Gallup, a majority of Americans have been satisfied with their healthcare for 20 years. That’s on three metrics. 1. Quality of care 2. Quality of Coverage 3. The cost they pay.

The reason why the system is so hard to change is because most people are just fine with it.

Dollar Slice

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #273 on: December 14, 2024, 04:38:34 PM »
For what it’s worth, according to Gallup, a majority of Americans have been satisfied with their healthcare for 20 years. That’s on three metrics. 1. Quality of care 2. Quality of Coverage 3. The cost they pay.

The reason why the system is so hard to change is because most people are just fine with it.

If you actually linked to the poll, people might see that the article released by Gallup is titled "View of U.S. Healthcare Quality Declines to 24-Year Low". And they might see that only 19% of people are satisfied with the cost of their healthcare and that 70% of people say that healthcare in this country has major problems or is in a state of crisis.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/654044/view-healthcare-quality-declines-year-low.aspx

I suspect the system is hard to change because *the people with the power to change it* are fine with it - people with plenty of money with secure, high-paying jobs living in population centers with a lot of doctors and hospitals.

Morning Glory

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #274 on: December 14, 2024, 04:44:51 PM »
For what it’s worth, according to Gallup, a majority of Americans have been satisfied with their healthcare for 20 years. That’s on three metrics. 1. Quality of care 2. Quality of Coverage 3. The cost they pay.

The reason why the system is so hard to change is because most people are just fine with it.

If you actually linked to the poll, people might see that the article released by Gallup is titled "View of U.S. Healthcare Quality Declines to 24-Year Low". And they might see that only 19% of people are satisfied with the cost of their healthcare and that 70% of people say that healthcare in this country has major problems or is in a state of crisis.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/654044/view-healthcare-quality-declines-year-low.aspx

I suspect the system is hard to change because *the people with the power to change it* are fine with it - people with plenty of money with secure, high-paying jobs living in population centers with a lot of doctors and hospitals.

There's plenty of survivorship bias in those polls (I mean that literally,  dead people can't fill out surveys). Also plenty of confounding variables e.g. how tying reimbursement to "patient satisfaction " was part of what drove providers to overprescribe opioids.

Just Joe

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #275 on: December 14, 2024, 06:31:01 PM »
I'm definitely not happy with the cost considering what we pay as healthy people with few if any recent claims. Of course that's how it works - it takes healthy people to share the cost for the sick people's care. 

Still I've toyed with raising our deductible to reduce our costs.

Visisted with a friend in the healthcare business today and they weaved a tale of paperwork procedures, fees, companies within companies, non-profits with for profit subsidiaries, and tales of poor (dangerous) care. All rumor grade stuff I want to read about that barely understood. Or maybe ignorance is bliss. Sausage factory and so forth.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #276 on: December 16, 2024, 12:14:13 PM »
Well, it's nice to see that United Healthcare has learned absolutely nothing from their CEO being gunned down and the ensuing celebration. Just talk about their CEO being a caring farm boy while completely ignoring their sky-high claim denial rates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/13/opinion/united-health-care-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione.html

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #277 on: December 16, 2024, 01:52:02 PM »
Well, it's nice to see that United Healthcare has learned absolutely nothing from their CEO being gunned down and the ensuing celebration. Just talk about their CEO being a caring farm boy while completely ignoring their sky-high claim denial rates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/13/opinion/united-health-care-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione.html
I think I vomited in my mouth a little bit when I read this last week. It was just such a pile of empty corporate drivel. This seemed more about putting something out there to help share prices and PR than anything actually substantive. Even the mea culpa about the generic system sidesteps actual responsbility as a kind of "we didn't start the fire" that sidesteps even the remotest possiblity that the solution is to scrap the existing health insurance middlemen system altogether.
Quote
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better. We are willing to partner with anyone, as we always have — health care providers, employers, patients, pharmaceutical companies, governments and others — to find ways to deliver high-quality care and lower costs."

An interesting companion piece is Brett Stephen's op ed that Brian Thompson was the actual working class hero because he gew up on a farm yet somehow managed to become a big shot CEO while Luigi M came from a prominent family and got an ivy league education. This one also misses the mark, because it attempts to reframe this as ivy league vs working class as opposed to effect of profit only capitalism effects on human lives and the inherent dichotomy between those goals in health care insurance systems. To write an article effectively asking why the working class isn't inspired and awestruck by Brian  Thompson's rise to absurd wealth through being good at denying claims is pretty far off the mark.   
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/12/04/opinion/thepoint#brian-thompson-luigi-mangione

The simple fact of the matter is that people are frustrated by the health insurance system that we have today.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #278 on: December 16, 2024, 02:06:03 PM »
Well, it's nice to see that United Healthcare has learned absolutely nothing from their CEO being gunned down and the ensuing celebration. Just talk about their CEO being a caring farm boy while completely ignoring their sky-high claim denial rates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/13/opinion/united-health-care-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione.html
I think I vomited in my mouth a little bit when I read this last week. It was just such a pile of empty corporate drivel. This seemed more about putting something out there to help share prices and PR than anything actually substantive. Even the mea culpa about the generic system sidesteps actual responsbility as a kind of "we didn't start the fire" that sidesteps even the remotest possiblity that the solution is to scrap the existing health insurance middlemen system altogether.
Quote
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better. We are willing to partner with anyone, as we always have — health care providers, employers, patients, pharmaceutical companies, governments and others — to find ways to deliver high-quality care and lower costs."

An interesting companion piece is Brett Stephen's op ed that Brian Thompson was the actual working class hero because he gew up on a farm yet somehow managed to become a big shot CEO while Luigi M came from a prominent family and got an ivy league education. This one also misses the mark, because it attempts to reframe this as ivy league vs working class as opposed to effect of profit only capitalism effects on human lives and the inherent dichotomy between those goals in health care insurance systems. To write an article effectively asking why the working class isn't inspired and awestruck by Brian  Thompson's rise to absurd wealth through being good at denying claims is pretty far off the mark.   
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/12/04/opinion/thepoint#brian-thompson-luigi-mangione

The simple fact of the matter is that people are frustrated by the health insurance system that we have today.

Not to mention that "Guy from humble beginnings climbs the ladder to success and pulls it up after him, flips bird at the people below as he walks off" is not the kind of story that resonates with the labor class.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #279 on: December 16, 2024, 04:24:52 PM »
Not to mention that "Guy from humble beginnings climbs the ladder to success and pulls it up after him, flips bird at the people below as he walks off" is not the kind of story that resonates with the labor class.

Putting aside the specific situation (I don't think many people are going to defend the practices of this particular CEO), I've always been intrigued to see that the rags-to-riches tale holds sway for a lot of people, but then also a lot of other people completely reject it. For me and people from my background (2nd generation migrants whose parents came overseas with nothing at all and often worked menial jobs to support us while investing in our education), the rags to riches thing is a real embodiment of the American dream. For others, it's a fairy tale at best.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #280 on: December 16, 2024, 10:00:46 PM »
Not to mention that "Guy from humble beginnings climbs the ladder to success and pulls it up after him, flips bird at the people below as he walks off" is not the kind of story that resonates with the labor class.

Putting aside the specific situation (I don't think many people are going to defend the practices of this particular CEO), I've always been intrigued to see that the rags-to-riches tale holds sway for a lot of people, but then also a lot of other people completely reject it. For me and people from my background (2nd generation migrants whose parents came overseas with nothing at all and often worked menial jobs to support us while investing in our education), the rags to riches thing is a real embodiment of the American dream. For others, it's a fairy tale at best.
It is possible to recognize that the rise to riches is one version of the American dream without accepting that the monetary ascent come with a halo of morality. I think the ability of people with drive to succeed due to a mostly meritocratic environment is great. However, I also think that the desire to succeed and increase profit regardless of moral or ethical boundaries is not worth celebrating. This is just like condemning murder while also appreciating and understanding the vein of frustation that Luigi M tapped into in killing a figurehead with moral responsibilty for setting up a system that methodically denied healthcare claims that should have been paid under the respective policies. Celebrating meritocracy does not require setting aside ethics.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #281 on: December 17, 2024, 10:33:07 AM »
Well, it's nice to see that United Healthcare has learned absolutely nothing from their CEO being gunned down and the ensuing celebration. Just talk about their CEO being a caring farm boy while completely ignoring their sky-high claim denial rates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/13/opinion/united-health-care-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione.html
I think I vomited in my mouth a little bit when I read this last week. It was just such a pile of empty corporate drivel. This seemed more about putting something out there to help share prices and PR than anything actually substantive. Even the mea culpa about the generic system sidesteps actual responsbility as a kind of "we didn't start the fire" that sidesteps even the remotest possiblity that the solution is to scrap the existing health insurance middlemen system altogether.
Quote
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better. We are willing to partner with anyone, as we always have — health care providers, employers, patients, pharmaceutical companies, governments and others — to find ways to deliver high-quality care and lower costs."

An interesting companion piece is Brett Stephen's op ed that Brian Thompson was the actual working class hero because he gew up on a farm yet somehow managed to become a big shot CEO while Luigi M came from a prominent family and got an ivy league education. This one also misses the mark, because it attempts to reframe this as ivy league vs working class as opposed to effect of profit only capitalism effects on human lives and the inherent dichotomy between those goals in health care insurance systems. To write an article effectively asking why the working class isn't inspired and awestruck by Brian  Thompson's rise to absurd wealth through being good at denying claims is pretty far off the mark.   
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/12/04/opinion/thepoint#brian-thompson-luigi-mangione

The simple fact of the matter is that people are frustrated by the health insurance system that we have today.

The media has become a joke.  I always thought “what an a&$hole” when Trump would call it the lamestream media but I’ve come around to that belief.  The big outlets are almost no better than state run media at this point.  The thing they use to manipulate the most is biased headlines as most people don’t get that far.  At any rate, let’s tout Brian Thomson as a rags to riches hero and ignore the people hurt by his company and DOJ fraud and insider trading investigation that was in progress.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #282 on: December 17, 2024, 11:30:08 AM »
The big outlets are almost no better than state run media at this point.  The thing they use to manipulate the most is biased headlines as most people don’t get that far.

Funny that you say that, because that is the result of capitalism - everything is an ad, every newspaper a clickbait producer.
The contrast to that are state sponsored media, who are, by and large, not only more qualitative but also less biased.
Which of course is why the right wingers try to shut them down, may it be Germany ("They only talk about climate change and vaccinations!!!") or the BBC. The BBC for f**** sake!
We don't need them, because we have unbiased news and truth on X, right? Right!?

SilentC

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #283 on: December 17, 2024, 03:12:48 PM »
The big outlets are almost no better than state run media at this point.  The thing they use to manipulate the most is biased headlines as most people don’t get that far.

Funny that you say that, because that is the result of capitalism - everything is an ad, every newspaper a clickbait producer.
The contrast to that are state sponsored media, who are, by and large, not only more qualitative but also less biased.
Which of course is why the right wingers try to shut them down, may it be Germany ("They only talk about climate change and vaccinations!!!") or the BBC. The BBC for f**** sake!
We don't need them, because we have unbiased news and truth on X, right? Right!?


Fair enough, it depends on which state we are talking about.  I had Russian state media in my head at the time. But it’s clear to methe way US mass media covered the election and this “assassination” is not at all objective and preserving status quo has been the goal. 

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #284 on: December 17, 2024, 03:35:46 PM »
Apologies if this has been covered, but curiosity got the better of me, so I did a tiny amount of google-fu and got these:

AI served up this: "Brian Thompson's total compensation at UnitedHealthcare was $10.2 million in 2023. This included a base pay of $1 million, plus cash and stock grants. As CEO of the company, Thompson was one of its highest-paid executives."

"Thompson’s net worth was approximately $43 million, according to Wallmine, per Daily Beast. Wallmine reported that Thompson’s net worth allegedly included over 72,000 units of UnitedHealth Group stock, valued at around $42.9 million, and stock options that were worth over $21 million. The Daily Mail reported that Thompson earned around $10 million per year with his salary at United Healthcare."

Wow.

jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #285 on: December 18, 2024, 04:43:00 AM »
Yep.  Our CEO's total comp is over 20 million a year.  So people here get upset with the never-ending rounds of layoffs (monthly for well over a year now), outsourcing, and shrinking bonus pools and benefits to "reduce opex".  I can't believe they're charging the shooter with terrorism.  Shows where our priorities are, I guess.

jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #286 on: December 18, 2024, 04:47:39 AM »
Well, it's nice to see that United Healthcare has learned absolutely nothing from their CEO being gunned down and the ensuing celebration. Just talk about their CEO being a caring farm boy while completely ignoring their sky-high claim denial rates.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/13/opinion/united-health-care-brian-thompson-luigi-mangione.html
I think I vomited in my mouth a little bit when I read this last week. It was just such a pile of empty corporate drivel. This seemed more about putting something out there to help share prices and PR than anything actually substantive. Even the mea culpa about the generic system sidesteps actual responsbility as a kind of "we didn't start the fire" that sidesteps even the remotest possiblity that the solution is to scrap the existing health insurance middlemen system altogether.
Quote
"We know the health system does not work as well as it should, and we understand people’s frustrations with it. No one would design a system like the one we have. And no one did. It’s a patchwork built over decades. Our mission is to help make it work better. We are willing to partner with anyone, as we always have — health care providers, employers, patients, pharmaceutical companies, governments and others — to find ways to deliver high-quality care and lower costs."

An interesting companion piece is Brett Stephen's op ed that Brian Thompson was the actual working class hero because he gew up on a farm yet somehow managed to become a big shot CEO while Luigi M came from a prominent family and got an ivy league education. This one also misses the mark, because it attempts to reframe this as ivy league vs working class as opposed to effect of profit only capitalism effects on human lives and the inherent dichotomy between those goals in health care insurance systems. To write an article effectively asking why the working class isn't inspired and awestruck by Brian  Thompson's rise to absurd wealth through being good at denying claims is pretty far off the mark.   
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/12/04/opinion/thepoint#brian-thompson-luigi-mangione

The simple fact of the matter is that people are frustrated by the health insurance system that we have today.

Oh good grief.  Brett Stephens is ridiculous and completely out of touch.  I unsubscribed to the NY Times earlier this year, but that sounds exactly like something he would write.  As noted above, the traditional "corporate" news media is increasingly owned by billionaires, so they have a vested interest in publishing this sort of thing. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #287 on: December 18, 2024, 06:55:23 AM »
I find it horrific how people using social media will rant about how bad "the media" is, as if the platform they are using isn't also "the media". Sorry folks, but YouTube IS "the media" and so is X and so is your favorite podcaster.

We're demonizing the evening broadcast news and the few remaining papyrus papers but almost nobody in the U.S. gets their information from these sources. Most get their news from TikTok, YouTube, X, Facebook, Reddit, and others. Apple, Google, and Microsoft will helpfully curate a list of information sources they calculate is slanted just enough to hold your attention a little better.

If you want to talk about billionaire control over everything we see and think or ads dictating content, it's a much, much worse problem on the social media side than it is on the swiftly-dying legacy media side.

Does it make you wonder where we get the notion that legacy media is the villain? I see this idea repeated over and over again on social media all the time. And then regular people, having seen that message enough times, subscribe to it and start acting as repeaters. That's fucking terrifying.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #288 on: December 18, 2024, 07:33:02 AM »
I find it horrific how people using social media will rant about how bad "the media" is, as if the platform they are using isn't also "the media". Sorry folks, but YouTube IS "the media" and so is X and so is your favorite podcaster.

We're demonizing the evening broadcast news and the few remaining papyrus papers but almost nobody in the U.S. gets their information from these sources. Most get their news from TikTok, YouTube, X, Facebook, Reddit, and others. Apple, Google, and Microsoft will helpfully curate a list of information sources they calculate is slanted just enough to hold your attention a little better.

If you want to talk about billionaire control over everything we see and think or ads dictating content, it's a much, much worse problem on the social media side than it is on the swiftly-dying legacy media side.

Does it make you wonder where we get the notion that legacy media is the villain? I see this idea repeated over and over again on social media all the time. And then regular people, having seen that message enough times, subscribe to it and start acting as repeaters. That's fucking terrifying.

People love to complain about the “mainstream media”.  I don’t even know what that means anymore.

I can’t think of any news source that commands enough attention span to be considered “mainstream”. The few that are close many times complain about the “mainstream” media. It’s a word that’s lost all meaning.

While the changes to the media have been dramatic over the past few decades, I’ve been noticing a couple trends that are combining to cause legitimate lost trust in journalism. 

The first is that newsroom budget cuts have converted most “news” to political coverage. Political coverage is cheap. Investigative journalism is expensive.  Campaign operatives and lobbying firms will even write their own coverage for overworked reporters on tight deadlines. 80%+ of news seems to be politics, whereas my ideal reporting would have no more than 20% politics.

Another trend that has become more obvious is who gets quoted. I remember as a kid hearing interviews with experts on topics. They could be doctors or professors, or professionals in their field. These people are no longer allowed to speak to the media due to corporate policies. All quotes either come through PR professionals, campaign staffers, lobbyists, or other bullshit artists.  A lot of trust has been lost as all information is filtered through those with an agenda.



jrhampt

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #289 on: December 18, 2024, 08:48:06 AM »
I find it horrific how people using social media will rant about how bad "the media" is, as if the platform they are using isn't also "the media". Sorry folks, but YouTube IS "the media" and so is X and so is your favorite podcaster.

We're demonizing the evening broadcast news and the few remaining papyrus papers but almost nobody in the U.S. gets their information from these sources. Most get their news from TikTok, YouTube, X, Facebook, Reddit, and others. Apple, Google, and Microsoft will helpfully curate a list of information sources they calculate is slanted just enough to hold your attention a little better.

If you want to talk about billionaire control over everything we see and think or ads dictating content, it's a much, much worse problem on the social media side than it is on the swiftly-dying legacy media side.

Does it make you wonder where we get the notion that legacy media is the villain? I see this idea repeated over and over again on social media all the time. And then regular people, having seen that message enough times, subscribe to it and start acting as repeaters. That's fucking terrifying.

Well yes, X and Facebook are also famously owned by billionaires, which is only partly why it's a really bad idea to get news from social media (there's also the fact that there are no standards or fact checking and anyone can have a platform without having any idea what they're talking about).  I've always preferred to get my news from more reputable sources like the NY Times and WaPo.  But I've found their coverage of the CEO murder disturbing in a different way.  Basically everything is owned by large corporations and a few really rich people who are trying to push their perspective.  Sometimes it seems like the only thing we have left that's not completely corrupted is public broadcasting/PBS/NPR. 

twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #290 on: December 18, 2024, 08:49:25 AM »
I find it horrific how people using social media will rant about how bad "the media" is, as if the platform they are using isn't also "the media". Sorry folks, but YouTube IS "the media" and so is X and so is your favorite podcaster.

We're demonizing the evening broadcast news and the few remaining papyrus papers but almost nobody in the U.S. gets their information from these sources. Most get their news from TikTok, YouTube, X, Facebook, Reddit, and others. Apple, Google, and Microsoft will helpfully curate a list of information sources they calculate is slanted just enough to hold your attention a little better.

If you want to talk about billionaire control over everything we see and think or ads dictating content, it's a much, much worse problem on the social media side than it is on the swiftly-dying legacy media side.

Does it make you wonder where we get the notion that legacy media is the villain? I see this idea repeated over and over again on social media all the time. And then regular people, having seen that message enough times, subscribe to it and start acting as repeaters. That's fucking terrifying.

Most news sources these days are slanted in some form, though probably not as badly as social media. Still, nothing that a bit of critical thinking can't fix.

There are reliable sources of information and statistics out there - chiefly from government agencies, peer-reviewed papers, reputable non-profits and a few newspapers of record. I also think Wikipedia is largely accurate, as long as you occasionally check the source material.

It's really up to individuals to use their critical thinking skills to get this stuff down pat. Particularly with the internet opening up vast sums of knowledge for free or nearly free. And nearly everyone in the developed world has access to the internet.

ChpBstrd

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #291 on: December 18, 2024, 02:05:49 PM »
But look at the double standard we employ when we expect objective Truth from legacy media, with no editorial bias, no hidden agenda, and no corporation pulling the strings. Just a robot speaking what actually happened, or else it's trash!

And then what is the social media alternative? All the worst of everything we're concerned about with legacy media, dialed up to 11?

Regarding critical thinking skills, I recall from the olde days that such skills were honed by listening to reasoned debates and feeling one's attitude shift as evidence was contradicted by counterevidence, and arguments we had accepted were pointed out to be fallacies. One learns from such experience about rhetoric, about how data and statistics are used and misused as evidence, about how there are multiple sides to all stories, and about the humbling experience of realizing one is actually wrong about something. The only way to have such learning experiences is through exposure to different sides in a reason-based format. These are the basics of democracy that we've forgotten in today's tribal, bubble-seeking mindset.

Thus, even if one's legacy media sources are biased, one can learn a lot from consuming the different sources. Read the editorial pages of both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and see how they contradict each other. One can learn a lot about reading/watching a hack job and then setting oneself on a personal assignment to find out why it might be overdone.

More importantly, we need to drop the attitude that ANY information source could ever possibly be the Objective Truth. That mindset has only led to people putting their brains on remote control to Fox News, or Joe Rogan, or whatever online information cult appears to be "authentic" that day. There is no Objective Truth available to us through our electronic devices, only arguments and angles and conflicting data on any question that matters. The practice of wading through that IS critical thinking, and always has been.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #292 on: December 28, 2024, 06:07:46 AM »
Yep, I couldn't agree more, a classic case of market failure:


Americans are sick of the health insurance grinches who steal our money and our lives
Lynn Parramore, Institute for New Economic Thinking
December 28, 2024

In the 21st century, Americans have expressed their view that healthcare is deteriorating, not advancing. For example, according to recent Gallup polls, respondents’ satisfaction with the quality of healthcare has reached its lowest level since 2001. Key point: Americans in those polls “rate healthcare coverage in the U.S. even more negatively than they rate quality.”

Coverage is the core failure, driven by the insurance industry’s profit-first approach to denying care.

It’s a textbook case of “market failure.” Instead of healthy competition lowering prices and improving services, what we have is an oligopoly that drives up costs and leaves millions uninsured.


https://www.rawstory.com/health-insurance-grinch/

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #293 on: December 28, 2024, 08:39:12 AM »
Believe it or not, I remember during the campaign for the Affordable Care Act how many conservatives railed against it. 

They claimed the U.S. healthcare system was more expensive because the U.S. invented so many pharmaceutical drugs that were needed, and we also provided cutting-edge medical treatments not available elsewhere.

And finally, that it wasn't a big deal to not have insurance coverage because
a) emergency rooms provided care for free;
b) you could always file bankruptcy to avoid paying medical bills.

I'm glad to see that 13 years of the ACA has started to shift those beliefs.


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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #294 on: December 28, 2024, 12:01:28 PM »
They claimed the U.S. healthcare system was more expensive because the U.S. invented so many pharmaceutical drugs that were needed, and we also provided cutting-edge medical treatments not available elsewhere.

I mean, this isn't wrong.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/reports/comparing-prescription-drugs#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20U.S.%20prices%20across,adjustments%20for%20estimated%20U.S.%20rebates.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10317843/

Those aren't the only reasons for the high costs of course - high physician pay, hospital systems merging and then increasing prices, and other factors are involved. But our drive to subsidize drug and other medical research has costs for Americans.

LaineyAZ

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #295 on: December 28, 2024, 04:57:45 PM »
The other big topic before the ACA passed was, "is health care a right or a privilege?"

Yes, that was the exact phrase and opinions were strong.  I can only imagine Europeans listening and thinking, WTH?

twinstudy

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #296 on: December 28, 2024, 05:31:40 PM »
The other big topic before the ACA passed was, "is health care a right or a privilege?"

Yes, that was the exact phrase and opinions were strong.  I can only imagine Europeans listening and thinking, WTH?

Universal health care is taken as a right in a lot of countries, but its implementation shows that we don't really consider all aspects of health care to be a right. For example, in Australia most adults don't get dental care covered - if you want to see a dentist, you have to pay out of pocket (or have private insurance). If you need urgent care or have a severe health issue then you will be fully covered, but for 'elective' procedures - even ones that are not strictly elective like spinal surgery - then if you don't have money, you will be put on a long waiting list. And if you want flexibility, promptness and choice of doctor, you need to pay. So in that sense, only a very basic level of healthcare is seen as a right, and the rest of it is a privilege you pay for - just like most other things in life.

ChpBstrd

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #297 on: December 30, 2024, 09:43:37 AM »
The other big topic before the ACA passed was, "is health care a right or a privilege?"

Yes, that was the exact phrase and opinions were strong.  I can only imagine Europeans listening and thinking, WTH?
Thinking about how to make payments for healthcare in ideological terms like "rights" or "privileges" is why the U.S. has been unable to solve this problem for decades. If you want a bitter debate about anything, talk about who deserves what from other people.

I suspect the countries where healthcare services are more directly supported by taxes simply looked at payments and remittances for services as a pragmatic problem that needed to be solved. They independently arrived at very similar systems. The U.S. meanwhile, remains mired in battles over the justice aspect of resource redistribution.

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #298 on: December 30, 2024, 11:07:27 AM »
The other big topic before the ACA passed was, "is health care a right or a privilege?"

Yes, that was the exact phrase and opinions were strong.  I can only imagine Europeans listening and thinking, WTH?
Thinking about how to make payments for healthcare in ideological terms like "rights" or "privileges" is why the U.S. has been unable to solve this problem for decades. If you want a bitter debate about anything, talk about who deserves what from other people.

I suspect the countries where healthcare services are more directly supported by taxes simply looked at payments and remittances for services as a pragmatic problem that needed to be solved. They independently arrived at very similar systems. The U.S. meanwhile, remains mired in battles over the justice aspect of resource redistribution.

Makes sense to me.  Like how making prisons nicer places (where there is zero inmate on inmate crime tolerated and counselling/high quality retraining happens) significantly reduces recidivism and helps to control crime long term, improving society.  But it's a total non-starter in North America because we view prisons as a place to get retribution on criminals (rather than address the problems that led to the crime), which tends to make more and worse criminals and worsen things all around.

But we gets our eye for an eye, and that makes us happy down in the cockles of our hearts.

Cranky

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Re: UnitedHealth CEO Shot dead
« Reply #299 on: January 05, 2025, 12:08:17 PM »
I picked up a prescription recently and needed to talk to the pharmacist because my insurance isn’t going to cover this anymore and I’ll have to switch to something else.
You know who isn’t all broken up about this “incident”? Pharmacists. Yikes - I thought they were going to start waving red flags!