Author Topic: Umbrella man of Minneapolis  (Read 23891 times)

Poundwise

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Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« on: May 29, 2020, 10:59:20 AM »
I thought that seeing this guy coolly breaking windows at the Autozone might change perspectives on the property damage and looting that have recently happened concurrent to protests.

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/who-is-the-umbrella-man-who-started-damage-at-autozone

bacchi

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 11:36:15 AM »
The left thinks it was a police officer and the right thinks it was a crisis actor (!).

It was probably just your generic run-of-the-mill 20-something anarchist out for a good time.

merula

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 11:38:21 AM »
Local here. There are rumors swirling that this man is not in any way connected to the protests and a deliberate provocateur. He did not appear to have come from the protest area to the Auto Zone, and he left directly afterwards. There are widespread calls to identify him, and initial information pointed to an identity as a St Paul Police Officer, but the SPPD disavowed that on their twitter account.

There are also rumors of far-right provacateurs inciting violence in downtown Minneapolis on Nicollet and Hennepin, and that the reports of 50-60 looters at a St. Paul Target (which is very close to my house) were greatly exaggerated. Folks who were both on the scene and listening to police scanners have reported significant differences in what was reported on the scanners versus what they saw.

Finally, the official reported timeline of the use of force by MPD in response to the Lake Street protests doesn't line up with the local media reports, and there is a significant disparity between what Chief Arradondo's authorization and what is actually being used on the street and suspicions that the entire chain of command has broken down. Notably, the MPD union boss Bob Kroll is a well-known white supremacist and likely has a greater influence over the rank-and-file than the relatively new chief who was brought in to effect change.

merula

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 11:48:41 AM »
One more thing: I spent a big chunk of the day driving around various parts of the Cities to deliver food and goodwill to family members. (A loved one died early yesterday morning of COVID.) I saw the following:
-Peaceful protests with signs and honking in the area around Midway. No confrontations or signs that would appear to condone violence.
-Small, peaceful protests on bridges and overpasses, with people holding signs and flags. Other people honking in support.
-Signs offering medical care, food, water and masks to protesters
-First-ring suburban shopping center closed (Maplewood Mall for the locals)
-Signs in windows and fliers in public spaces with the Hennepin County Attorney's phone number urging people to call in support of murder charges.
-Minneapolis Police in some sort of tactical gear in an area with relatively few protesters, but a relatively wealthy neighborhood (Nokomis)

Also, the very latest is that Chauvin has bene arrested. http://www.citypages.com/news/derek-chauvin-arrested-for-killing-george-floyd/570868971

Louisville

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2020, 12:05:30 PM »

Paul der Krake

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Poundwise

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 01:22:43 PM »
One more thing: I spent a big chunk of the day driving around various parts of the Cities to deliver food and goodwill to family members. (A loved one died early yesterday morning of COVID.) I saw the following:
-Peaceful protests with signs and honking in the area around Midway. No confrontations or signs that would appear to condone violence.
-Small, peaceful protests on bridges and overpasses, with people holding signs and flags. Other people honking in support.
-Signs offering medical care, food, water and masks to protesters
-First-ring suburban shopping center closed (Maplewood Mall for the locals)
-Signs in windows and fliers in public spaces with the Hennepin County Attorney's phone number urging people to call in support of murder charges.
-Minneapolis Police in some sort of tactical gear in an area with relatively few protesters, but a relatively wealthy neighborhood (Nokomis)

Also, the very latest is that Chauvin has bene arrested. http://www.citypages.com/news/derek-chauvin-arrested-for-killing-george-floyd/570868971

Thank you for the update, merula. I'm very sorry for your loss. These are unhappy times.

Poundwise

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2020, 01:26:48 PM »

MasterStache

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 06:38:32 AM »
We had our own peaceful protest here yesterday with families and people from every background peacefully protesting. The police chief was engaging with the community as he often does. It was great to see. That happened right up until about 11 when suddenly the crowd grew in size (by that time a lot of the original protesters and families had left). Then the damage and looting started. You could see a handful of protesters trying to get them to stop shattering store fronts and stealing stuff to no avail. It's a damn shame the many small business folks will be returning to their stores with shattered windows and merchandise stolen. People are angry and frustrated and have every right to be. They do not have a right to destroy other people's livelihoods in the process.     

cliffhanger

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2020, 07:34:00 AM »
It's been unbelievable watching some FB friends actually defend these riots! "It's the language of the unheard.." No, it's trampling all over MLK's legacy to use his words to excuse what's been going on, in my opinion. And it's a disgrace to George Floyd's memory to use his unjust murder as an excuse to destroy. The Atlanta Mayor has some words about that. It's unfortunate that many in ATL didn't take her words to heart last night.

The people starting these riots won't have to deal with the consequences. It's a guarantee that the AutoZone guy aren't from that community. They're antifa, anarchists etc. They're taking away attention from the good people trying to enact change. Seriously, who are they fighting against? Who is on the side of the officer? I'd bet 99%+ of people are on the same side until you start throwing fireworks at cops and burning down affordable housing projects. There's plenty of good people calling out the losers who want to sow chaos. Those are the people we should be looking towards. It's sad that they don't get the same internet clicks as those starting the fires.


Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2020, 10:05:55 AM »
The people starting these riots won't have to deal with the consequences. It's a guarantee that the AutoZone guy aren't from that community. They're antifa, anarchists etc.

Actually...

This is one of the right wing groups torching my city.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:40:18 AM by Kris »

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2020, 11:03:19 AM »
In a decent movie (or what I consider a decent movie), this guy would be some representative of the forces of evil. He will never be found or identified, and the people who saw him in person will all die off in weird ways very soon.

Poundwise

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2020, 11:16:54 AM »
Footage of similar sabotage happening in Oakland CA:
https://twitter.com/AsiaJannelll/status/1266626927885873152
https://twitter.com/deshawnieboy/status/1266650482841276418
https://twitter.com/Freeyourmindkid/status/1266661155994550272

"There are people responding with different theories. Some think it’s the far left, some think it’s the far right, some think it’s cops. I’m not sure who these men were, but I do know that they were there to take advantage of the protests, and to discredit the BLM movement."

I don't think it's Antifa.  I think it's Fa.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 11:19:52 AM by Poundwise »

Sibley

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2020, 11:19:58 AM »
I did hear that the governor did a press conference and stated that many (most?) of the arrests are from individuals who are not local.

I grew up outside Detroit. I'm not old enough to remember the riots in the 70s, but my parents do. I live near Chicago now. There's been similar crap here. I see it on the local social media groups. It should not matter what color your skin is. It is shameful how people who are not white are treated in this country. They are human beings, and they deserve to be treated with respect, compassion, and dignity. Any one who is not capable or willing to do so is not a decent person in my view.

vern

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »
The Attorney General of Minnesota...


Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2020, 11:26:09 AM »
I did hear that the governor did a press conference and stated that many (most?) of the arrests are from individuals who are not local.

I grew up outside Detroit. I'm not old enough to remember the riots in the 70s, but my parents do. I live near Chicago now. There's been similar crap here. I see it on the local social media groups. It should not matter what color your skin is. It is shameful how people who are not white are treated in this country. They are human beings, and they deserve to be treated with respect, compassion, and dignity. Any one who is not capable or willing to do so is not a decent person in my view.

The mayor of Saint Paul said in a presser that all of the people arrested here last night are from out of state.

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2020, 11:28:51 AM »
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism

Yeah, I’d say I’m against fascism...

cliffhanger

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2020, 11:37:15 AM »
Footage of similar sabotage happening in Oakland CA:
https://twitter.com/AsiaJannelll/status/1266626927885873152
https://twitter.com/deshawnieboy/status/1266650482841276418
https://twitter.com/Freeyourmindkid/status/1266661155994550272

"There are people responding with different theories. Some think it’s the far left, some think it’s the far right, some think it’s cops. I’m not sure who these men were, but I do know that they were there to take advantage of the protests, and to discredit the BLM movement."

I don't think it's Antifa.  I think it's Fa.


The people starting these riots won't have to deal with the consequences. It's a guarantee that the AutoZone guy aren't from that community. They're antifa, anarchists etc.

Actually...

This is one of the right wing groups torching my city.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war

So I'll add these low-lifes to the list. Antifa, anarchists, far right extremists, etc. All the same to me. Doesn't change what I wrote. These are all people taking advantage of pent up frustration who will never have to live with the consequences. Hope you guys remain safe out there, especially if it's near you.

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2020, 12:09:49 PM »
Footage of similar sabotage happening in Oakland CA:
https://twitter.com/AsiaJannelll/status/1266626927885873152
https://twitter.com/deshawnieboy/status/1266650482841276418
https://twitter.com/Freeyourmindkid/status/1266661155994550272

"There are people responding with different theories. Some think it’s the far left, some think it’s the far right, some think it’s cops. I’m not sure who these men were, but I do know that they were there to take advantage of the protests, and to discredit the BLM movement."

I don't think it's Antifa.  I think it's Fa.


The people starting these riots won't have to deal with the consequences. It's a guarantee that the AutoZone guy aren't from that community. They're antifa, anarchists etc.

Actually...

This is one of the right wing groups torching my city.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/pkyb9b/far-right-extremists-are-hoping-to-turn-the-george-floyd-protests-into-a-new-civil-war

So I'll add these low-lifes to the list. Antifa, anarchists, far right extremists, etc. All the same to me. Doesn't change what I wrote. These are all people taking advantage of pent up frustration who will never have to live with the consequences. Hope you guys remain safe out there, especially if it's near you.

It is. It is six blocks away from me.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2020, 12:59:03 PM »
I'm a little surprised at the eagerness to blame the unrest on provocateurs, although they are undeniably present.  I say this as an outsider, of course.  It was my opinion that there is a great deal of unhappiness both with African-Americans and with the economically downtrodden--perhaps the second group are opportunists.  But is there some credibility to the idea that these riots have a more general source of fuel?  Displeasure with the political, economic systems and racial inequities/tensions related to the former?  Brazil and other developing countries come to mind.

From what I read on twitter, there seems to be a growing body of citizens left out of the New Age; working class folks with little political representation or social mobility.  Am I imagining things?  Young people have expectations of the world getting better, and maybe this is partly hubris, but it's also reasonable that society is supposed to improve for citizens across time.  When this improvement is not observed, the young revolutionary types start attacking the pillars holding the whole thing up.  Thoughts?

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2020, 03:36:39 PM »
I'm a little surprised at the eagerness to blame the unrest on provocateurs, although they are undeniably present.  I say this as an outsider, of course.  It was my opinion that there is a great deal of unhappiness both with African-Americans and with the economically downtrodden--perhaps the second group are opportunists.  But is there some credibility to the idea that these riots have a more general source of fuel?  Displeasure with the political, economic systems and racial inequities/tensions related to the former?  Brazil and other developing countries come to mind.

From what I read on twitter, there seems to be a growing body of citizens left out of the New Age; working class folks with little political representation or social mobility.  Am I imagining things?  Young people have expectations of the world getting better, and maybe this is partly hubris, but it's also reasonable that society is supposed to improve for citizens across time.  When this improvement is not observed, the young revolutionary types start attacking the pillars holding the whole thing up.  Thoughts?

I don't think anyone is saying that not a single protester has done a single violent thing. I do think, though -- and this is from living in this city, living six blocks away from one of the current epicenters, having been at protests of this nature before, and having other friends who have seen and are seeing what has been happening during these protests -- that a lot of the instigating is being done by people other than the core group of protesters themselves. In my experience, young white men tend to come out to these things because it's a great excuse to bust shit up. During the Philando protests in 2016, literally the *only* violence I saw was from that demographic. And I saw plenty of black folks who were part of the actual protest movement doing everything they could to stop those guys from throwing shit off bridges and smashing pipes into cars.

The governor of MN said this morning that 80% of the people who were arrested last night were from out of state.

The mayor of St. Paul said this morning that 100% of the people arrested in St. Paul last night were from out of state.

And then there's the actual video footage of people who very much do not seem to be part of the protest. And the article I linked to before.

In short, there are groups with a political interest in fanning the flames of violence. On the right, their likely aim is to discredit BLM, and turn people's attention away from the injustice of George Floyd's death. Toward what? Well, for Boogaloo, apparently civil war.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-wing-race-war-wannabes-could-make-george-floyd-police-protests-go-nuclear

« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 03:38:14 PM by Kris »

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2020, 03:44:13 PM »
Also, if anyone wants to understand more about what's happening in the Twin Cities, this is a document that's being shared by the faith-based organization ISAIAH, to help us prepare for tonight.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vz7m0DrupA5AEIFBWmF4HQ43sI2okT52vftFiVtPJfA/preview?fbclid=IwAR2pBID-aeaE0ki66xySPYwylrNq5amMtOLNMRP3HGXSGUMrIhnwq70U39M&pru=AAABcouV9UU*opkg7Y_VjYjRQbS6JXBC3Q

Poundwise

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2020, 04:29:05 PM »
Quote
Department of Safety Commissioner John Harrington said they are contact-tracing the arrested and added that an investigation is underway about white nationalist groups posting online to encourage their members to use the protests as a cover to create chaos.

He said some of the 40 arrests made in the Twin Cities Friday night were of people linked to white supremacist groups and organized crime.

“The people that are doing this are not Minneapolis residents,” Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey said. “They are coming largely from outside the city outside the region to prey on everything we have built.”

https://www.courthousenews.com/minnesota-officials-link-arrested-looters-to-white-supremacist-groups

Wrenchturner

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2020, 04:35:09 PM »
I'm a little surprised at the eagerness to blame the unrest on provocateurs, although they are undeniably present.  I say this as an outsider, of course.  It was my opinion that there is a great deal of unhappiness both with African-Americans and with the economically downtrodden--perhaps the second group are opportunists.  But is there some credibility to the idea that these riots have a more general source of fuel?  Displeasure with the political, economic systems and racial inequities/tensions related to the former?  Brazil and other developing countries come to mind.

From what I read on twitter, there seems to be a growing body of citizens left out of the New Age; working class folks with little political representation or social mobility.  Am I imagining things?  Young people have expectations of the world getting better, and maybe this is partly hubris, but it's also reasonable that society is supposed to improve for citizens across time.  When this improvement is not observed, the young revolutionary types start attacking the pillars holding the whole thing up.  Thoughts?

I don't think anyone is saying that not a single protester has done a single violent thing. I do think, though -- and this is from living in this city, living six blocks away from one of the current epicenters, having been at protests of this nature before, and having other friends who have seen and are seeing what has been happening during these protests -- that a lot of the instigating is being done by people other than the core group of protesters themselves. In my experience, young white men tend to come out to these things because it's a great excuse to bust shit up. During the Philando protests in 2016, literally the *only* violence I saw was from that demographic. And I saw plenty of black folks who were part of the actual protest movement doing everything they could to stop those guys from throwing shit off bridges and smashing pipes into cars.

The governor of MN said this morning that 80% of the people who were arrested last night were from out of state.

The mayor of St. Paul said this morning that 100% of the people arrested in St. Paul last night were from out of state.

And then there's the actual video footage of people who very much do not seem to be part of the protest. And the article I linked to before.

In short, there are groups with a political interest in fanning the flames of violence. On the right, their likely aim is to discredit BLM, and turn people's attention away from the injustice of George Floyd's death. Toward what? Well, for Boogaloo, apparently civil war.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-wing-race-war-wannabes-could-make-george-floyd-police-protests-go-nuclear

Thanks for your insights.  There's definitely a blend of events manifesting here.  Not that I dispute the figure, but it is surprising that people would travel in from out of state to cause havoc.  The next closest large cities are 250+ mi away, which is a long way to go to start shit.  My conspiracy alarms are going off--is someone paying these people?

bacchi

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2020, 05:05:28 PM »
Thanks for your insights.  There's definitely a blend of events manifesting here.  Not that I dispute the figure, but it is surprising that people would travel in from out of state to cause havoc.  The next closest large cities are 250+ mi away, which is a long way to go to start shit.  My conspiracy alarms are going off--is someone paying these people?

Yes, Soros and Hillary are paying protestors. You can sign up at www.areyoufuckingkiddingme?.com.

Seriously, though, white nationalists don't have to live in cities.

maizefolk

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2020, 07:47:51 PM »
The governor of MN said this morning that 80% of the people who were arrested last night were from out of state.

The mayor of St. Paul said this morning that 100% of the people arrested in St. Paul last night were from out of state.

The mayors did say that this morning, however, they now say that they were misinformed. (From a CBS reporter)

A local TV stations that got the arrest records for the county found that "of 36 cases, about 86 percent of those arrested listed Minnesota as their address."

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-records-show-arrests-mostly-minnesotans-as-george-floyd-protests-riots-continue-minneapolis-st-paul/89-73f3e0e8-0664-41d5-8d3e-4467d04da7cb
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 07:50:58 PM by maizeman »

waltworks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2020, 08:06:46 PM »
If only all these folks would get fired up to, say, vote consistently...

-W

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2020, 08:08:52 PM »
The governor of MN said this morning that 80% of the people who were arrested last night were from out of state.

The mayor of St. Paul said this morning that 100% of the people arrested in St. Paul last night were from out of state.

The mayors did say that this morning, however, they now say that they were misinformed. (From a CBS reporter)

A local TV stations that got the arrest records for the county found that "of 36 cases, about 86 percent of those arrested listed Minnesota as their address."

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-records-show-arrests-mostly-minnesotans-as-george-floyd-protests-riots-continue-minneapolis-st-paul/89-73f3e0e8-0664-41d5-8d3e-4467d04da7cb

I just read that. FFS, that’s a pretty big mistake.

iris lily

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2020, 08:10:32 PM »
We had our own peaceful protest here yesterday with families and people from every background peacefully protesting. The police chief was engaging with the community as he often does. It was great to see. That happened right up until about 11 when suddenly the crowd grew in size (by that time a lot of the original protesters and families had left). Then the damage and looting started. You could see a handful of protesters trying to get them to stop shattering store fronts and stealing stuff to no avail. It's a damn shame the many small business folks will be returning to their stores with shattered windows and merchandise stolen. People are angry and frustrated and have every right to be. They do not have a right to destroy other people's livelihoods in the process.     

It’s always like that. Here in St. Louis the peaceful protesters are there during the day and when curfew happens they go home. That’s when the thugs and property destroyers come out.  Enforcement in Ferguson decided to let property burn. No lives were lost.

Rubyvroom

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2020, 11:42:58 PM »
Learning that the "out of state" narrative was overstated was pretty infuriating today.

I'm still in our old neighborhood Facebook group, which is one of the neighborhoods that has been targeted the past few days. Shortly before curfew, a large park in the neighborhood was cleared out by police after it was reported that a number of vehicles with no license plates had converged there. This was heard over the police scanner and witnessed by many neighbors.

Over the next few hours there were nonstop, uncorroborated reports in the Facebook group of KKK appearing around the neighborhood. It appeared as though people were seeing the posts online and calling and reporting it to the police. Neighbors in the vicinity started verifying that these reports were false. People started to realize they were likely being targeted by an online misinformation campaign, calling out users that had newish accounts and had been added to the neighborhood group in the past 2-3 weeks.

Additionally, there appeared to be ongoing issues with vehicles scoping the neighborhood, stopping on the street and then driving away, no license plates, keeping everyone's anxiety high and causing additional emergency and non-emergency calls into the police.

The point I'm trying to make is, while I enjoy thinking through conspiracy theories as much as the next person, tonight it feels like umbrella man is everywhere. The coordination used both online and on the streets to cause fear and confusion and flood emergency services with false reports has felt quite deliberate.

Also, we all began the evening with being told our metro interstates would be shut down just 1 hour before they shut them down, and with warnings like this, which of course gets the heart pumping...

Important update from the MN Department of Public Safety.
*Community Guidance to Maintain Safety Tonight
The Department of Public Safety is asking all local communities to NOT be in the streets tonight, for any reason.
The situation has shifted. The coordinated response tonight will be different.
The coordinated National Guard, State Patrol, and Law enforcement presence will triple in size – and it continues to grow.
This response is to address a sophisticated network of urban warfare. We expect the individuals involved to use deadly force – both with fires and other weapons.
A primary tactic they have used is to locate civilians and use them as both shields from law enforcement and distractions to effective response.
YOU MUST STAY IN PLACE.
Do not patrol, do not be out walking, do not drive your car unless is it an emergency situation.
We cannot have innocent people caught up in the sweep of those inflicting violence and danger on our communities.
These people are sophisticated and coordinated and we need to allow our law enforcement to focus response and resources on the legitimate threats attacking our communities.
Just because you don’t see the coordinated response – such as National Guard soldiers, know that they are out in the community. DO NOT ASSUME THAT YOU ARE NOT BEING SEEN BY THEM. Our response teams have airborne surveillance. If you are out patrolling the street, our response teams cannot know if you are there to do damage or to protect and will divert resources to find out.
If you are out, you are making the response operation more difficult. You are taking resources and attention away from effectively responding to threats.
Protecting and keeping watch from safe, non-mobile locations is fine.

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2020, 01:29:46 AM »
I'm a little surprised at the eagerness to blame the unrest on provocateurs, although they are undeniably present.  I say this as an outsider, of course.  It was my opinion that there is a great deal of unhappiness both with African-Americans and with the economically downtrodden--perhaps the second group are opportunists.  But is there some credibility to the idea that these riots have a more general source of fuel?  Displeasure with the political, economic systems and racial inequities/tensions related to the former?  Brazil and other developing countries come to mind.

From what I read on twitter, there seems to be a growing body of citizens left out of the New Age; working class folks with little political representation or social mobility.  Am I imagining things?  Young people have expectations of the world getting better, and maybe this is partly hubris, but it's also reasonable that society is supposed to improve for citizens across time.  When this improvement is not observed, the young revolutionary types start attacking the pillars holding the whole thing up.  Thoughts?

I don't think anyone is saying that not a single protester has done a single violent thing. I do think, though -- and this is from living in this city, living six blocks away from one of the current epicenters, having been at protests of this nature before, and having other friends who have seen and are seeing what has been happening during these protests -- that a lot of the instigating is being done by people other than the core group of protesters themselves. In my experience, young white men tend to come out to these things because it's a great excuse to bust shit up. During the Philando protests in 2016, literally the *only* violence I saw was from that demographic. And I saw plenty of black folks who were part of the actual protest movement doing everything they could to stop those guys from throwing shit off bridges and smashing pipes into cars.

The governor of MN said this morning that 80% of the people who were arrested last night were from out of state.

The mayor of St. Paul said this morning that 100% of the people arrested in St. Paul last night were from out of state.

And then there's the actual video footage of people who very much do not seem to be part of the protest. And the article I linked to before.

In short, there are groups with a political interest in fanning the flames of violence. On the right, their likely aim is to discredit BLM, and turn people's attention away from the injustice of George Floyd's death. Toward what? Well, for Boogaloo, apparently civil war.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-wing-race-war-wannabes-could-make-george-floyd-police-protests-go-nuclear

Thanks for your insights.  There's definitely a blend of events manifesting here.  Not that I dispute the figure, but it is surprising that people would travel in from out of state to cause havoc.  The next closest large cities are 250+ mi away, which is a long way to go to start shit.  My conspiracy alarms are going off--is someone paying these people?

I know a woman from Madison, Wisconsin whose young adult daughter went to Minneapolis to protest.  She is posting updates on her social media (I see the ones her mom shares.)  I am not sure where she is staying but many people have connections in other cities. 

This is a big deal and I understand why some are traveling to be a part of it.  I know this woman's mom and I am sure she is not causing trouble. Protesting, yes.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2020, 05:21:26 AM »
I know a woman from Madison, Wisconsin whose young adult daughter went to Minneapolis to protest.  She is posting updates on her social media (I see the ones her mom shares.)  I am not sure where she is staying but many people have connections in other cities. 

This is a big deal and I understand why some are traveling to be a part of it.  I know this woman's mom and I am sure she is not causing trouble. Protesting, yes.

There is some of that, I'm sure.  But there's also a sort of hypnosis or group think associated with mob mentality; if your friend's daughter had a short temper and got attacked somehow, she could quickly turn into a rioter.  Especially if the people around her decide to start trashing stuff.  Some people attend with the intention of protesting, some attend with the intention of rioting, but there are people in the middle that can be swayed by the mob.  Perhaps they don't attend these events with any goals in mind and allow their limbic systems to take over.  (It should be noted that the police are also subject to this mob mentality, and that's a big part of this whole situation.  Derek Chauvin was one of four.)

That's also why I was considering whether there's more to these events.  They are racial in nature, but also related to police corruption more generally, and perhaps dissatisfaction more generally.  Certainly the COVID situation is not helping. 

The line between targets and collateral damage starts to blur.  Remember Reginald Denny?  Who's fault was that?

My concern is that an easy resolution may not present itself if the cause of these events is not easily identified.

Derek Chauvin has been arrested and charged yet protests continue.  I saw a video of NYPD vehicles driving into a barrier surrounded by protesters.  De-escalation needs to be a priority and I don't know how it will happen.

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2020, 05:28:06 AM »
I know a woman from Madison, Wisconsin whose young adult daughter went to Minneapolis to protest.  She is posting updates on her social media (I see the ones her mom shares.)  I am not sure where she is staying but many people have connections in other cities. 

This is a big deal and I understand why some are traveling to be a part of it.  I know this woman's mom and I am sure she is not causing trouble. Protesting, yes.

There is some of that, I'm sure.  But there's also a sort of hypnosis or group think associated with mob mentality; if your friend's daughter had a short temper and got attacked somehow, she could quickly turn into a rioter.  Especially if the people around her decide to start trashing stuff.  Some people attend with the intention of protesting, some attend with the intention of rioting, but there are people in the middle that can be swayed by the mob.  Perhaps they don't attend these events with any goals in mind and allow their limbic systems to take over.  (It should be noted that the police are also subject to this mob mentality, and that's a big part of this whole situation.  Derek Chauvin was one of four.)

That's also why I was considering whether there's more to these events.  They are racial in nature, but also related to police corruption more generally, and perhaps dissatisfaction more generally.  Certainly the COVID situation is not helping. 

The line between targets and collateral damage starts to blur.  Remember Reginald Denny?  Who's fault was that?

My concern is that an easy resolution may not present itself if the cause of these events is not easily identified.

Derek Chauvin has been arrested and charged yet protests continue.  I saw a video of NYPD vehicles driving into a barrier surrounded by protesters.  De-escalation needs to be a priority and I don't know how it will happen.

I think the death of George Floyd is the match that's lit a tinder-dry country. The USA has been on the edge for years, imo, and this is the time when people have finally had enough. The overall ethos of the riots is obviously that black lives matter, but I think it's gone well beyond that also. It seems to me that the USA is desperate for real leadership and real change.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2020, 05:40:26 AM »
I think the death of George Floyd is the match that's lit a tinder-dry country. The USA has been on the edge for years, imo, and this is the time when people have finally had enough. The overall ethos of the riots is obviously that black lives matter, but I think it's gone well beyond that also. It seems to me that the USA is desperate for real leadership and real change.
Certainly. 

I do truly hope this situation wanes, and I haven't seen shootings or molotovs, but it doesn't feel far off.  I hope my cynicism is overblown.

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2020, 05:43:32 AM »
I sincerely hope that this is not over-politicized.

The other police officers need to be arrested and charged with a suitable crime for not protecting the life of the victim.  The Minneapolis police department needs an overhaul, especially if it is true (as stated above by another poster) that there is a known white supremacist high in the ranks.

You have to kick out, discipline, or retrain people with the wrong attitudes.

I understand, just somewhat, how if your job is to catch "bad guys" and you are constantly seeing black people in a bad light as bad guys or living in very poor conditions, you see victims of violence and kids suffering, then it's possible to become racist over time.  I think this happens to police and fire employees.  I think that the profession makes people more suspicious and cynical and there has to be training and psychology to counteract that.  Police need to go on evidence. The other issue is that police officers are afraid of becoming victims (and this is somewhat understandable, it's a dangerous job and police officers are killed).  More training.  More psychology and more mental health. 

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2020, 05:49:24 AM »
My friend's daughter reported that peaceful protesters were getting sprayed with mace.

She also reported that there are people giving out food and supplies to protesters.

I understand that the mob mentality happens.  It is actually frightening how little it takes for people's emotions to be stirred up.  This makes it especially bad if people who seek violence are going to Minneapolis to cause trouble and make things worse.  It is very, very bad.

You can see from things like the television reporter being arrested that things are over the top tense.  I hope that charges for the other officers will come soon and that that action will help ease the situation.

For everyone in the cities, be careful out there.

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2020, 06:28:11 AM »
Here is something positive.

Chattanoga, TN chief tells officers OK with Floyd death to turn in badges
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/david-roddy-chattanooga-police-chief-tells-officer/?fbclid=IwAR0BnM9Ntmjk194loqz3_k-oT61mtCkt81bkb4xkd4PdFqq_GfsQxnErJaU


And this is good, "Walk with us", Flint, MI
https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/05/flint-area-police-join-protesters-marching-to-seek-justice-for-george-floyd.html


The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

mathlete

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2020, 07:40:24 AM »
Here is something positive.

Chattanoga, TN chief tells officers OK with Floyd death to turn in badges
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/david-roddy-chattanooga-police-chief-tells-officer/?fbclid=IwAR0BnM9Ntmjk194loqz3_k-oT61mtCkt81bkb4xkd4PdFqq_GfsQxnErJaU


And this is good, "Walk with us", Flint, MI
https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/05/flint-area-police-join-protesters-marching-to-seek-justice-for-george-floyd.html


The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

Good clips. It’s been a sucky few days but I’m always heartened by seeing good cops be good cops.

maizefolk

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2020, 07:53:13 AM »
That's also why I was considering whether there's more to these events.  They are racial in nature, but also related to police corruption more generally, and perhaps dissatisfaction more generally.  Certainly the COVID situation is not helping. 

I agree. I think two things are hitting at once that we've both seen separately lead to protests in the past.

1) Whenever there is a highly public reminder that white and black people aren't just treated differently in this country, but that this differential treatment leads to black men (and boys) being killed without repercussions to the perpetrator you get significant protests. Consider the protests following the police killings of Michael Brown and Eric Garner in 2014.

Now the protests this week have a very different character from those protests six years ago. Part of that is that the video evidence this time is so clear and the (former) police's actions are egregious that essentially no one can or has taken the side of arguing their actions were justified or forgivable. But the other big factor is the second thing hitting at the same time.

2) When the economy turns bad, people lose their jobs, are facing eviction, and don't have hope for a better future, they, especially young people, tend to come out and protest their general dissatisfaction with the world, and society, and "the system." The young people involved feel like they have little lose, and plenty of time to protest for days -- even traveling to other cities to protest -- having no jobs likely no rent due at the end of the month (frequently couch surfing, moving in with parents/family, or facing homelessness) and no prospects of the same. We saw this with the Occupy movement in 2011 in the depths of the financial crisis* which lasted for months.

Right now we've got the causes of the occupy protests of 2011 mixed together with the causes of the black lives matter protests of 2014 into a single thing that is at least as big as the sum of its parts.

*I remember actually going to an occupy event myself in my then present city.  when the protests had turned from whatever they were originally focused on to essentially protesting the level of force used by the policy to shut down and clear out the initial nonviolent protests.

js82

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2020, 07:55:15 AM »
My friend's daughter reported that peaceful protesters were getting sprayed with mace.

She also reported that there are people giving out food and supplies to protesters.

I understand that the mob mentality happens.  It is actually frightening how little it takes for people's emotions to be stirred up.  This makes it especially bad if people who seek violence are going to Minneapolis to cause trouble and make things worse.  It is very, very bad.

You can see from things like the television reporter being arrested that things are over the top tense.  I hope that charges for the other officers will come soon and that that action will help ease the situation.

Even beyond the "Big Cities" you've been hearing about in the news, there's a lot of action going on across the nation - there have been several mid-sized cities near me that have had protests morph into violence.

Without being there, there's a lot of "fog of war" associated with what we get through the news - there are peaceful protests, evidence of cases where police definitely stepped over the line and helped turn a peaceful situation violent, and situations where outsiders definitely tried to exacerbate the situation(Umbrella Man and others like him).  What I'm *very* unclear on is the relative frequency of the various situations - how many of these were organic anger, versus police failing to handle a crowd of protesters appropriately and provoking a response, versus outsiders acting as provocateurs to get things started?  And of those outsiders, what were their affiliations and motivations - were they anarchists who were anti-police, or were they racially-motivated, aiming to discredit the protesters by turning peaceful protests violent?

There are definitely those who aren't directly involved with the protests, who have been trying to leverage them to serve their own ends, but it's tremendously difficult to assess just how many of these people there are, and what their real motivations may be.

GuitarStv

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2020, 07:55:29 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2020, 08:06:12 AM »
Yes, and figure that bad cops are bad people with a lot of power and weapons and knowledge of violence.  This is difficult.  I can understand why a police officer with a family would feel very cautious about rocking the boat and not knowing if they will have support.  If there is a culture war inside police departments, it is hard.  I feel there needs to be a culture war in some police departments, but who am I to say that? It will take a LOT of leadership and commitment to fix this problem. You also have a lot of people who are "following orders" and not really thinking for themselves. I see the groups of police who are at these protest and it has to be a herd mentality, they are stronger together and who is doing the thinking for the group? Who is leading and deciding?  It is very challenging.  This is a hard culture.

It is *hard* being a police officer.  They are put in difficult, dangerous situations.  They have a physical toll on their bodies from their work.  They have a heavy mental toll on their minds from their work.  One of our local officers committed suicide last year.  It is very hard work.  We have to appreciate the ones who honor their oath.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:09:24 AM by KBecks »

mathlete

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2020, 08:12:25 AM »
This week, more than ever, it seems like a really good idea for the police to have a working relationship with community leaders, and for every community to have cops they are friendly with. Imagine if protestors were met with the recognizable faces of their beat cops instead of a faceless wall of riot gear.

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2020, 08:21:10 AM »
In our schools, we have officers who know hundreds of kids.  Not all school officers are welcomed or appreciated.  It's hard for that too.  When I talked with the officer who runs our D.A.R.E. program, he mentioned that he sees kids and knows some of the kids when their department responds to domestic violence calls and it sounds like that is a lot of what happens in our area. 

I also understand that there is a "don't trust police" code in many communities. And if an area has a lot of bad actors and gang violence, there is violent revenge for helping the authorities.  It's so difficult!

Kris

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2020, 08:28:03 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

Exactly this. Ultimately, it takes courage for the good cops to do something about the bad cops. But they MUST speak up. They simply must.

As I’ve heard it said, if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 good cops who do and say nothing about the 10 bad cops, then you have 1010 bad cops.

OtherJen

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2020, 08:32:07 AM »
Here is something positive.

Chattanoga, TN chief tells officers OK with Floyd death to turn in badges
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/29/david-roddy-chattanooga-police-chief-tells-officer/?fbclid=IwAR0BnM9Ntmjk194loqz3_k-oT61mtCkt81bkb4xkd4PdFqq_GfsQxnErJaU


And this is good, "Walk with us", Flint, MI
https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/05/flint-area-police-join-protesters-marching-to-seek-justice-for-george-floyd.html


The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

Yes. Flint Township police and the Genesee County sheriff’s office did exactly the right things to de-escalate. Sounds like Chattanooga’s PD is also doing good things.

OtherJen

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2020, 08:48:11 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

Exactly this. Ultimately, it takes courage for the good cops to do something about the bad cops. But they MUST speak up. They simply must.

As I’ve heard it said, if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 good cops who do and say nothing about the 10 bad cops, then you have 1010 bad cops.

Yes. And in the short term, it would help if the police would stop shooting reporters (although kudos to the camera crews for capturing some of the events live) and driving into crowds. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.amp?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR2qXmHpHHLfsx_iDkzG3PdqLiQGzYkWjv600ESLHblM80pDwK8Fh-bxT_E

MudPuppy

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2020, 08:49:39 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

Exactly this. Ultimately, it takes courage for the good cops to do something about the bad cops. But they MUST speak up. They simply must.

As I’ve heard it said, if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 good cops who do and say nothing about the 10 bad cops, then you have 1010 bad cops.

Precisely. Silence is violence.

KBecks

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2020, 08:51:46 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

Exactly this. Ultimately, it takes courage for the good cops to do something about the bad cops. But they MUST speak up. They simply must.

As I’ve heard it said, if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 good cops who do and say nothing about the 10 bad cops, then you have 1010 bad cops.

I think it's much more complicated than that.  Say a good cop says something and tries to do something and gets no support, or starts to get threatened. What then?  This is going to take a lot of good people working together and we can HOPE that there are only 10 bad cops and 1000 good cops. Then you have all the shades of gray between good and bad.  But basic standards should be kept, oaths should be kept.

js82

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Re: Umbrella man of Minneapolis
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2020, 09:02:34 AM »
The good cops need to get rid of the bad cops and this is very difficult, but it needs to be done.  There needs to be a big culture change in many organizations.

This is a huge part of the problem.  By and large, most police officers I know and have run into are good, decent folks trying to do a difficult job as well as they can.  But each one has mentioned to me the tremendous amount of pressure and deeply ingrained culture of staying quiet to protect the few police officers who break the rules.  It's very common to face reprisals for doing so.  As long as this culture continues to be the norm, it's going to be very difficult for people to trust the police and will continue to drive a wedge between police/citizens.

It's very heartening (and probably requiring a lot of personal courage on the part of the officers) to see police breaking with the blue wall to show support for these protesters.

Exactly this. Ultimately, it takes courage for the good cops to do something about the bad cops. But they MUST speak up. They simply must.

As I’ve heard it said, if you have 10 bad cops, and 1000 good cops who do and say nothing about the 10 bad cops, then you have 1010 bad cops.

I think it's much more complicated than that.  Say a good cop says something and tries to do something and gets no support, or starts to get threatened. What then?  This is going to take a lot of good people working together and we can HOPE that there are only 10 bad cops and 1000 good cops. Then you have all the shades of gray between good and bad.  But basic standards should be kept, oaths should be kept.

Changing an entrenched culture is HARD.  I can empathize with the cops who are torn between playing the "long game" (trying to gradually affect positive change on the organizational culture over time) and taking a hard stand at the risk of being exiled from their profession.  However Mayors and police commissioners get no such sympathy from me - they're elected to serve the interests of their citizens, and should be held responsible for maintaining(or failing to maintain) a culture of accountability, transparency, and integrity within their cities' law enforcement departments.  It's incumbent upon us as voters to see to that.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 09:04:42 AM by js82 »