Author Topic: Twitter  (Read 94887 times)

Fru-Gal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2022, 07:21:06 PM »
It’s a poll from Musk asking whether or not to reinstate Trump.

bryan995

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ender

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #252 on: November 19, 2022, 06:53:53 AM »
The way I see it, Elon paid $44B for Twitter’s established user base and market share. I don’t understand how the company can continue to move forward with its existing legacy infrastructure, given how many of the employees have departed. The knowledge base required to operate and develop within the current infrastructure has been obliterated.

That being said, I think this may be what Elon wants. The old Twitter was a bloated and lazy company, both in terms of their infrastructure and employee base. To bring Twitter into the next decade, the entire thing needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch. Elon would have had an easier job doing this if he just started his own social media company, but then he wouldn’t have Twitter’s user base and market share. Twitter is one of those companies that just got there first and established itself, and by doing so is almost impossible to replace no matter how bloated, lazy, and lacking in vision it may have become.

Elon is going to have to create a very compelling vision for his new Twitter if he wants to be able to hire people willing to work “hardcore” hours though. Tesla and SpaceX both have top-notch technology and extremely compelling visions, which is why their employees are willing to work that hard. Twitter has never had that, which is why it has always been famous in the Valley for its lazy and unmotivated employees.

So for Elon to succeed here, he needs to do the following:
1. Communicate a clear and compelling vision for the new Twitter so that he can attract the kind of “hardcore” engineers he wants to hire.
2. Keep the existing infrastructure running well enough to avoid losing the established user base and market share.
3. Build out a whole new infrastructure for the new Twitter which will eventually replace the old one.

It will be extremely difficult to achieve this but Elon Musk does seem motivated enough to pull it off. I’m worried about #1 though, as nothing he has communicated about his vision for the new Twitter has been clear or compelling.

Furthermore, all of this fits perfectly into Elon’s established MO. He identifies a lucrative industry that has become weak and bloated, and finds a better way to do it. Then he moves into the industry, builds a younger, leaner, and more capable company, disrupts the old players, and takes over the industry. The process has already been done twice with SpaceX and Tesla. Twitter is an interesting case because Elon is disrupting it internally rather than externally, and Twitter’s business is lucrative in political power rather than profits. But it’s still essentially the same process being put into motion at Twitter as what Elon already did in the space and automotive industries.

This is a good example of people who think they understand how to build an application the scale of Twitter but have never done so.

It's not as simple as many people seem to think (Elon and yourself included) and I suspect the world is going to find out just how complicated it actually is to build and operate an application of Twitter's scale.

FINate

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #253 on: November 19, 2022, 09:02:16 AM »
The way I see it, Elon paid $44B for Twitter’s established user base and market share. I don’t understand how the company can continue to move forward with its existing legacy infrastructure, given how many of the employees have departed. The knowledge base required to operate and develop within the current infrastructure has been obliterated.

That being said, I think this may be what Elon wants. The old Twitter was a bloated and lazy company, both in terms of their infrastructure and employee base. To bring Twitter into the next decade, the entire thing needs to be burned down and rebuilt from scratch. Elon would have had an easier job doing this if he just started his own social media company, but then he wouldn’t have Twitter’s user base and market share. Twitter is one of those companies that just got there first and established itself, and by doing so is almost impossible to replace no matter how bloated, lazy, and lacking in vision it may have become.

Elon is going to have to create a very compelling vision for his new Twitter if he wants to be able to hire people willing to work “hardcore” hours though. Tesla and SpaceX both have top-notch technology and extremely compelling visions, which is why their employees are willing to work that hard. Twitter has never had that, which is why it has always been famous in the Valley for its lazy and unmotivated employees.

So for Elon to succeed here, he needs to do the following:
1. Communicate a clear and compelling vision for the new Twitter so that he can attract the kind of “hardcore” engineers he wants to hire.
2. Keep the existing infrastructure running well enough to avoid losing the established user base and market share.
3. Build out a whole new infrastructure for the new Twitter which will eventually replace the old one.

It will be extremely difficult to achieve this but Elon Musk does seem motivated enough to pull it off. I’m worried about #1 though, as nothing he has communicated about his vision for the new Twitter has been clear or compelling.

Furthermore, all of this fits perfectly into Elon’s established MO. He identifies a lucrative industry that has become weak and bloated, and finds a better way to do it. Then he moves into the industry, builds a younger, leaner, and more capable company, disrupts the old players, and takes over the industry. The process has already been done twice with SpaceX and Tesla. Twitter is an interesting case because Elon is disrupting it internally rather than externally, and Twitter’s business is lucrative in political power rather than profits. But it’s still essentially the same process being put into motion at Twitter as what Elon already did in the space and automotive industries.

This is a good example of people who think they understand how to build an application the scale of Twitter but have never done so.

It's not as simple as many people seem to think (Elon and yourself included) and I suspect the world is going to find out just how complicated it actually is to build and operate an application of Twitter's scale.

Yes, completely agree. And it's not just about writing/building software. There's an art to deploying a system to a live production environment, and every application takes on a life of its own with a unique set of idiosyncrasies. It takes decades of behind the scenes collective experience to keep large applications running. Things like how to build and verify software before pushing to prod to ensure stability and guard against malicious intent (e.g. rouge insiders), how to scale up back end services without overwhelming a weak link in the system, redirecting load as anomalies arise, and so forth. I suspect Twitter is dangerously close to losing a critical mass of hard-earned institutional knowledge.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #254 on: November 19, 2022, 01:36:31 PM »
This is a good example of people who think they understand how to build an application the scale of Twitter but have never done so.

It's not as simple as many people seem to think (Elon and yourself included) and I suspect the world is going to find out just how complicated it actually is to build and operate an application of Twitter's scale.

Oh, I don’t think it’s going to be easy for them. I agree that the company has lost so much knowledge that it is going to be extremely difficult to keep the existing system running and perhaps impossible to develop new software on the existing system. That’s why I think their only option at this point is to keep the old thing running *somehow* and start anew.

ender

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #255 on: November 20, 2022, 07:14:43 AM »
This is a good example of people who think they understand how to build an application the scale of Twitter but have never done so.

It's not as simple as many people seem to think (Elon and yourself included) and I suspect the world is going to find out just how complicated it actually is to build and operate an application of Twitter's scale.

Oh, I don’t think it’s going to be easy for them. I agree that the company has lost so much knowledge that it is going to be extremely difficult to keep the existing system running and perhaps impossible to develop new software on the existing system. That’s why I think their only option at this point is to keep the old thing running *somehow* and start anew.

But that's my point. You make it sound like this is a trivial thing to do.

Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #256 on: November 20, 2022, 07:43:51 AM »
This is a good example of people who think they understand how to build an application the scale of Twitter but have never done so.

It's not as simple as many people seem to think (Elon and yourself included) and I suspect the world is going to find out just how complicated it actually is to build and operate an application of Twitter's scale.

Oh, I don’t think it’s going to be easy for them. I agree that the company has lost so much knowledge that it is going to be extremely difficult to keep the existing system running and perhaps impossible to develop new software on the existing system. That’s why I think their only option at this point is to keep the old thing running *somehow* and start anew.

But that's my point. You make it sound like this is a trivial thing to do.

Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

Exactly.

I mean...you can...but it's likely to be a garbage product and social media users are notoriously demanding and fickle.

The value of a social media company isn't in its IP, none of them have produced a software product that's particularly impressive, but they do produce enormous systems that work well, and that takes people...a lot of people.

The value of the company is in the continued participation of the users, and the users will bail if the not particularly original software doesn't work properly and if a reasonable alternative presents itself.

So yeah, it *can* be done, but can it be done well enough to retain the actual value of the company??? Not likely considering the other value of the company was the workforce and they're already gone.

I'm not quite as curious about what's going to happen with Twitter as what's going to happen with Musk himself. He does have the resources to kill and resurrect Twitter if he wants to, that is very possible, especially if he takes time to do it. But that will essentially be the equivalent of him just building his own social media platform and taking down Twitter to eliminate the competition.

Is that the plan? Was that always the plan? I have no idea, and am not overly concerned about it, but curious to see what happens.

What is more interesting is to see how Musk himself rebrands after this. He was inching steadily away from his "genius world saviour" image, but this really cements his status as "weird impulsive billionaire who is completely out of touch."

What will be the next incarnation of Musk? How will he brand himself moving forward after this? What will be his angle and his impact?

I think history will summarize him as the wunderkind Tesla/Rocket guy who then got weird during the pandemic and that lead to his transition to...???

I'm just curious what the "???" will be.

What does someone like him do when they divorce themselves from public approval?? What happens?

maizefolk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #257 on: November 20, 2022, 07:47:05 AM »
Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

In support of this, look how much trouble Truth Social had in scaling to a tiny fraction of twitter's user base without being constantly overloaded. And that was after building off an existing open source twitter like infrastructure. Truth social is (or at least was initially) running Mastadon with custom branding.

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #258 on: November 20, 2022, 08:52:02 AM »
Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

In support of this, look how much trouble Truth Social had in scaling to a tiny fraction of twitter's user base without being constantly overloaded. And that was after building off an existing open source twitter like infrastructure. Truth social is (or at least was initially) running Mastadon with custom branding.
Hw many did it reach?
Because Matodon has doubled now - to 2 million I read - and I wonder how it scales up? Especially since it's afaik all run on private money and goodwill.

ender

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #259 on: November 20, 2022, 09:43:25 AM »
Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

In support of this, look how much trouble Truth Social had in scaling to a tiny fraction of twitter's user base without being constantly overloaded. And that was after building off an existing open source twitter like infrastructure. Truth social is (or at least was initially) running Mastadon with custom branding.
Hw many did it reach?
Because Matodon has doubled now - to 2 million I read - and I wonder how it scales up? Especially since it's afaik all run on private money and goodwill.

Well, that's not even 1% of Twitter's daily users assuming all 2MN of those folks are actually using it as much as daily Twitter users do.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #260 on: November 20, 2022, 10:16:57 AM »
Spinning up an application the scale of Twitter isn't something you casually decide to do and pull off in a short period of time with a fraction the original folks.

In support of this, look how much trouble Truth Social had in scaling to a tiny fraction of twitter's user base without being constantly overloaded. And that was after building off an existing open source twitter like infrastructure. Truth social is (or at least was initially) running Mastadon with custom branding.
Hw many did it reach?
Because Matodon has doubled now - to 2 million I read - and I wonder how it scales up? Especially since it's afaik all run on private money and goodwill.

Well, that's not even 1% of Twitter's daily users assuming all 2MN of those folks are actually using it as much as daily Twitter users do.

Mastodon's scaling comes from its decentralization. Instead of one company needing to provision servers and network resources for millions of users, you can have thousands of organizations each provisioning resources for thousands of users. Many of these are indeed overloaded at this time, but others are not. Managing this level of scale requires much less expertise than Twitter-scale.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #261 on: November 20, 2022, 11:22:50 AM »
I'll be shocked if Mastodon actually gets any real traction. Open-source clones trying to copy the established player has, as far as I can tell, never worked. I've been following the FOSS ecosystem since I first installed Linux in ~2006 or thereabouts, so I've seen more than few attempts.

It's already really, really hard to get people to move in significant numbers even when you have dedicated professionals doing nothing but that. Volunteers? Good luck. The only exception I can think of is the very limited-purpose social network lichess.org that took on chess.com and is still thriving despite running on almost zero budget, and that is an insane achievement.

The other thing you have to understand about Twitter is that the platform is totally run by its power users, and they absolutely thrive on the toxicity and negativity. They drive the huge engagement numbers. Noah Smith calls them the shouting class, and he's dead on. They are not really interested in having the moderated (on the left) or less moderated (on the right) space they claim to want. The appeal of Twitter is that they get to dish out dunk after dunk, and get a ton of validation from doing it in front of the largest audience possible. They crow with glee when they get someone banned, and post screenshots of other people blocking them like it's a victory for getting under their skin. They put their new TruthSocial or Mastodon link in their bio for a few months, while hedging their bets and continuing to post on the platform they say they despise. They need each other. They'll never quit.

If Twitter dies, it will be replaced by something radically different, not a clone with just a few tweaks.

Moonwaves

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #262 on: November 21, 2022, 04:14:30 AM »
Mastodon.ie definitely took off in a big way but it is still relatively small (althought apparently currently the 46th largest).

Jeez, when I joined only a couple of weeks ago, the mastodon.social instance had maybe 20k active users, if that, and now I see that it has 240k 😳 -- 12x growth. Still, the #MastoDaoine Mastodon.ie instance grew at *many times* that rate -- from around 155 active users then to *18k* now  -- that's *116 times* its size at end of Oct. 🤯🤯🤯

I think it will take a few more months for things to settle down before we can really tell how well it's going to stick around. It definitely feels like the MastoDaoine* are here to stay though.


*MastoDaoine = Irish Mastonauts/Mastodonians. Daoine (pronounced more or less something between "deen-eh" and "deen-ie", kind of) is the Irish for people. And "meas do dhaoine", which is pronounced the same way MastoDaoine is, means respect to people, as in to give people respect, which seemed very fitting as a foil for what twitter can often be like.

bacchi

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #263 on: November 21, 2022, 08:51:03 AM »
Trump, Ye, and Tate are back.

Given that a lot of advertisers have already fled, will they return if they're advertising next to Tate's misogynistic comments about sexual assault victims?

Or maybe Elon makes Twitter a pay-to-post platform?

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #264 on: November 21, 2022, 10:17:30 AM »
Trump, Ye, and Tate are back.

Given that a lot of advertisers have already fled, will they return if they're advertising next to Tate's misogynistic comments about sexual assault victims?

Or maybe Elon makes Twitter a pay-to-post platform?
That seems to his intenttion with downrating non-payers so their tweets "don't appear until you activly search for them".

partgypsy

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #265 on: November 21, 2022, 10:51:25 AM »
Trump, Ye, and Tate are back.

Given that a lot of advertisers have already fled, will they return if they're advertising next to Tate's misogynistic comments about sexual assault victims?

Or maybe Elon makes Twitter a pay-to-post platform?
That seems to his intenttion with downrating non-payers so their tweets "don't appear until you activly search for them".
if that is happening,  makes quite the hypocrite. Needs to amend his statement  "unrestricted free speech*" *for those who pay. Everyone else f* off.

Travis

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #266 on: November 21, 2022, 12:06:23 PM »
Trump, Ye, and Tate are back.

Given that a lot of advertisers have already fled, will they return if they're advertising next to Tate's misogynistic comments about sexual assault victims?

Or maybe Elon makes Twitter a pay-to-post platform?
That seems to his intenttion with downrating non-payers so their tweets "don't appear until you activly search for them".
if that is happening,  makes quite the hypocrite. Needs to amend his statement  "unrestricted free speech*" *for those who pay. Everyone else f* off.

When asked if he was going to unban Alex Jones, this was his response:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1594552252865384450

I foresee his conviction on this point being tested very quickly.

Villanelle

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #267 on: November 22, 2022, 05:09:05 PM »

Captain FIRE

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #268 on: November 22, 2022, 06:08:37 PM »
@Villanelle as someone who is friends with/related to many Jews, that is hysterical.

scottish

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #269 on: November 23, 2022, 07:49:04 PM »
Everyone knows Teslas are very hard to extinguish when they catch fire, though.   It's not quite as good as candles burning for 8 nights.

Sibley

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #270 on: November 23, 2022, 08:38:06 PM »
Everyone knows Teslas are very hard to extinguish when they catch fire, though.   It's not quite as good as candles burning for 8 nights.

I did not know, but you aren't joking. They really are hard to put out. Wow.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/06/22/tesla-fire-sacramento/

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #271 on: November 24, 2022, 02:14:44 AM »
Everyone knows Teslas are very hard to extinguish when they catch fire, though.   It's not quite as good as candles burning for 8 nights.

I did not know, but you aren't joking. They really are hard to put out. Wow.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/06/22/tesla-fire-sacramento/

That is true vor every battery. Electric cars just have bigger ones. It's one of the things firefighters have been complaining about, especially those with tunnels. I mean you can't even use water to stop the fire, and the rain in the tunnel when there is a fire makes it a very dangerous area.

FINate

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #272 on: November 24, 2022, 09:28:52 AM »
Everyone knows Teslas are very hard to extinguish when they catch fire, though.   It's not quite as good as candles burning for 8 nights.

I did not know, but you aren't joking. They really are hard to put out. Wow.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/06/22/tesla-fire-sacramento/

That is true vor every battery. Electric cars just have bigger ones. It's one of the things firefighters have been complaining about, especially those with tunnels. I mean you can't even use water to stop the fire, and the rain in the tunnel when there is a fire makes it a very dangerous area.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries are much more chemically stable, way less prone to thermal runaway. Also better for the environment and more cycles. Hopefully more BEVs move to LFP even though the energy density is lower.

maizefolk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #273 on: November 24, 2022, 10:33:51 AM »
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries are much more chemically stable, way less prone to thermal runaway. Also better for the environment and more cycles. Hopefully more BEVs move to LFP even though the energy density is lower.

The most recent news I read (last spring) was that Tesla was already producing about 50% of their total vehicles with LFP batteries. Definitely seems like a move in the right direction.

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #274 on: November 25, 2022, 02:21:57 AM »
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries are much more chemically stable, way less prone to thermal runaway. Also better for the environment and more cycles. Hopefully more BEVs move to LFP even though the energy density is lower.

The most recent news I read (last spring) was that Tesla was already producing about 50% of their total vehicles with LFP batteries. Definitely seems like a move in the right direction.
The ones in China. Though I think Germany will be too?

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #275 on: November 30, 2022, 02:44:02 AM »
Surprise!

Looks like the Right Wingers take over to decide what is Free Speech and whatnot, and left accounts (like someone who identified an capitol attacker) are suspended.

https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-ngo-antifascist/

NorCal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #276 on: November 30, 2022, 06:47:34 AM »
Surprise!

Looks like the Right Wingers take over to decide what is Free Speech and whatnot, and left accounts (like someone who identified an capitol attacker) are suspended.

https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-ngo-antifascist/

What makes me happiest is that Elon Musk's attempt to become Donald Trump 2.0 is mostly being met by a shrug outside of the right-wing echo chambers.

Donald Trump had power because he generated outrage and couldn't be ignored.  Now that we're past the first few weeks of the Elon show, he's getting a lot less attention.  We're sitting here watching the dumpster fire and laughing a bit.  But we're not outraged.  We fundamentally don't care that much.  Which is why Elon Musk will never have the pull that Trump did.  And it's why Twitter will likely become irrelevant outside of those same right wing echo chambers.  And I'm okay with that. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #277 on: November 30, 2022, 07:01:02 AM »
Hmm.  I'm always curious when people start talking about 'free speech'.  Pretty often they're concerned about 'free speech for the things that I want to hear' and unconcerned about limiting speech that they don't.  Seems like this is the type of 'free speech' that Musk meant when taking over Twitter.

chemistk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #278 on: November 30, 2022, 08:36:29 AM »
Hmm.  I'm always curious when people start talking about 'free speech'.  Pretty often they're concerned about 'free speech for the things that I want to hear' and unconcerned about limiting speech that they don't.  Seems like this is the type of 'free speech' that Musk meant when taking over Twitter.

Never forget the underlying tack to many of these occurrences:

Freedom for me, not for thee.

It always astounds me when someone (most often from the conservative side of things, but not always) self-censors in recognizance of the unpalatability of their opinion. By holding such an opinion contradicting that of the majority while crying foul against those who do not wish to hear them, they demonstrate two things:

1) That their opinion is, at least in some part, deviant and/or incorrect.
2) That their intent is to cause their opinion to be accepted by the majority, often through forceful agreement.


FINate

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #279 on: November 30, 2022, 09:08:05 AM »
Surprise!

Looks like the Right Wingers take over to decide what is Free Speech and whatnot, and left accounts (like someone who identified an capitol attacker) are suspended.

https://theintercept.com/2022/11/29/elon-musk-twitter-andy-ngo-antifascist/

All very predictable. This is from an article back in May discussing Musk's claims to be a free speech absolutist:

Quote
Despite his lofty declarations, Musk has a track record of silencing his critics. To give one example, a former employee of Tesla was fired for raising safety concerns about a Tesla autopilot function on his YouTube channel. This strikes at the core of Musk’s incongruity on the issue. From a legal standpoint, that action had nothing to do with free speech law. And yet the former employee’s words are exactly the sort of “free speech” Musk claims to be crusading for.

At this point, I just kinda expect this type of hubris and incongruence from billionaire tech bros. And I don't think it's a left vs. right issue either. These guys think way too highly of themselves and have huge blind spots, and yet they wield enormous power over society.

bacchi

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #280 on: November 30, 2022, 01:05:45 PM »
It's interesting how "free speech" is stretched to include a corporation's marketing dollars. Musk's attempts at bullying Apple aside, he knows that's not how it works but I'm not so sure about his most fervent fans.

Psychstache

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #281 on: November 30, 2022, 03:00:59 PM »
Most people's principles are really just preferences.

Tigerpine

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #282 on: November 30, 2022, 08:24:05 PM »
It's a week old, but this Youtube video regarding Twitter's legal issues is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxCRRcWSt4I

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #283 on: December 02, 2022, 06:18:43 AM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

NorCal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #284 on: December 02, 2022, 07:19:56 AM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

jinga nation

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #285 on: December 02, 2022, 10:26:13 AM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

Does this increased Twitter usage result in increased revenue, especially when a significant number of advertisers (apparently 50+ of the top 100) have paused/stopped/cancelled use of the platform?

And there's almost-zero content moderation. (Tim Apple probably slapped some sense into Elon in his backyard, so we saw that posturing tweet as a result. And then there's the Europeans itching to put some reins on him...) And now the Kanye latest in this twitter soap opera.

Is there a way to know how many users have quit twitter since the purchase?

LennStar

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #286 on: December 02, 2022, 11:41:09 AM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

Does this increased Twitter usage result in increased revenue, especially when a significant number of advertisers (apparently 50+ of the top 100) have paused/stopped/cancelled use of the platform?

And there's almost-zero content moderation. (Tim Apple probably slapped some sense into Elon in his backyard, so we saw that posturing tweet as a result. And then there's the Europeans itching to put some reins on him...) And now the Kanye latest in this twitter soap opera.

Is there a way to know how many users have quit twitter since the purchase?
Probably less than come in from the right wingers. Though that is a tentativly quit. I guess many are still qaiting to see how bad it will be or are simply in different (regional or topical) circles. If the only thing you are interested in are cat pictures you might not even see a difference.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #287 on: December 02, 2022, 03:08:29 PM »
Quote
Legally speaking, how do Twitter workers know that saying they want to be laid off will in fact result in getting severance vs. choosing to quit?

Looks like a lawsuit was filed today on this very question…

NorCal

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #288 on: December 02, 2022, 09:15:32 PM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

Does this increased Twitter usage result in increased revenue, especially when a significant number of advertisers (apparently 50+ of the top 100) have paused/stopped/cancelled use of the platform?

And there's almost-zero content moderation. (Tim Apple probably slapped some sense into Elon in his backyard, so we saw that posturing tweet as a result. And then there's the Europeans itching to put some reins on him...) And now the Kanye latest in this twitter soap opera.

Is there a way to know how many users have quit twitter since the purchase?

While I have no crystal ball into why this is the case, Musk clearly has zero interest in retaining advertisers.  His actions speak louder than any of his (inconsistent) words ever could.  He clearly has some vision for Twitter that doesn't include major advertising revenue.

Either that, or he'll pull a Foxnews and walk back the crazy just enough to get advertisers back at some point.

Sibley

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #289 on: December 02, 2022, 10:45:04 PM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

Does this increased Twitter usage result in increased revenue, especially when a significant number of advertisers (apparently 50+ of the top 100) have paused/stopped/cancelled use of the platform?

And there's almost-zero content moderation. (Tim Apple probably slapped some sense into Elon in his backyard, so we saw that posturing tweet as a result. And then there's the Europeans itching to put some reins on him...) And now the Kanye latest in this twitter soap opera.

Is there a way to know how many users have quit twitter since the purchase?
Probably less than come in from the right wingers. Though that is a tentativly quit. I guess many are still qaiting to see how bad it will be or are simply in different (regional or topical) circles. If the only thing you are interested in are cat pictures you might not even see a difference.

^ This. My twitter is so tightly focused that I really haven't seen much difference. I'm not on regularly, I hardly post, and I don't stray from outside my little corner of twitter. The difference I have seen is coming from the handful of accounts that are more "public", where they're mentioning stuff or stuff is getting dragged into my feed. I may actually unfollow those accounts because its annoying. But I'm not on enough to get to the point where it's that annoying. Inertia.

gooki

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #290 on: December 04, 2022, 02:32:45 AM »
One good change in the last few days. Twitter no longer tries to force you into creating an account by blocking content when simply reading tweets.


FireLane

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #291 on: December 04, 2022, 09:41:38 AM »
Seen today: Lots of Tesla stockholders are angry at Musk for neglecting his existing businesses and tanking their share prices with his lunatic behavior.

https://twitter.com/ashleyfeinberg/status/1599213610953154561

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #292 on: December 04, 2022, 11:55:47 AM »
Definitely not a "free speech absolutist." But he did say that Twitter wasn't going to be a free for all, however, how he's actually going to handle it will be interesting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/12/02/elon-musk-suspends-yes-twitter-account-after-swastika-post.html

I think you're assuming that there will be rules, consistency and some sort of logical guiding principle. 

I assume the opposite.  People complaining and second guessing erratic and inconsistent moderation decisions generates outrage, which generates more Twitter usage.  This is now considered a feature and not a bug.

Does this increased Twitter usage result in increased revenue, especially when a significant number of advertisers (apparently 50+ of the top 100) have paused/stopped/cancelled use of the platform?

And there's almost-zero content moderation. (Tim Apple probably slapped some sense into Elon in his backyard, so we saw that posturing tweet as a result. And then there's the Europeans itching to put some reins on him...) And now the Kanye latest in this twitter soap opera.

Is there a way to know how many users have quit twitter since the purchase?

While I have no crystal ball into why this is the case, Musk clearly has zero interest in retaining advertisers.  His actions speak louder than any of his (inconsistent) words ever could.  He clearly has some vision for Twitter that doesn't include major advertising revenue.

Either that, or he'll pull a Foxnews and walk back the crazy just enough to get advertisers back at some point.
The recent performance art of Ye and Musk's strong negative reaction to it (as well as not reinstating Alex Jones's twitter account) suggests that Musk is not a free speech absolutist as claimed and perhaps is factoring in reputational and financial damage into his decisions at Twitter. Meet the new boss, a better memer, but fundamentally the same as the old boss.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #293 on: December 04, 2022, 04:32:05 PM »
The recent performance art of Ye and Musk's strong negative reaction to it (as well as not reinstating Alex Jones's twitter account) suggests that Musk is not a free speech absolutist as claimed and perhaps is factoring in reputational and financial damage into his decisions at Twitter.

It would be a great improvement for Elon Musk if he would consider the reputational and financial damage of what gets said on his platform--most importantly, what he himself says. In the past, Elon has shown zero regard for the reputational and financial damage of things he has said, and has managed to ruin his reputation as a result.

I wonder if owning Twitter could teach Elon some important lessons about free speech and optics? As owner and CEO of Twitter, he has become responsible for people who say even crazier things than him. Now that he has to ban people like Alex Jones and Ye for saying stupid shit, maybe Elon will start watching what he says? This is a chance for him to be more of the adult in the room now that he has such increased responsibilities. At the very least, Elon seems to have quickly learned that "free speech absolutism" is infeasible.

But this is Elon we are talking about so who knows?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 04:45:30 PM by Herbert Derp »

maizefolk

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #294 on: December 04, 2022, 04:47:01 PM »
Two weeks ago people were talking about twitting having only days left before the system came apart from losing too many key people and too much institutional knowledge. So far the site still seems to be running and we're seeing minor changes and tweaks so I don't think it's a case of just having working code on production servers and everyone left is just praying, not touching it and not making any sudden movements.

The wheels could still come off tomorrow. And it wouldn't surprise me if the stability we've seen so far has come at the expense of an awful lot of all-nighters from an awful lot of extremely stressed engineers. However, it it still seems worth taking a moment to note that the tech side of twitter* is holding up better than it was widely portrayed/forecast even a week ago.

*Policy side is a whole separate discussion.

Villanelle

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #295 on: December 04, 2022, 05:07:17 PM »
The recent performance art of Ye and Musk's strong negative reaction to it (as well as not reinstating Alex Jones's twitter account) suggests that Musk is not a free speech absolutist as claimed and perhaps is factoring in reputational and financial damage into his decisions at Twitter.

It would be a great improvement for Elon Musk if he would consider the reputational and financial damage of what gets said on his platform--most importantly, what he himself says. In the past, Elon has shown zero regard for the reputational and financial damage of things he has said, and has managed to ruin his reputation as a result.

I wonder if owning Twitter could teach Elon some important lessons about free speech and optics? As owner and CEO of Twitter, he has become responsible for people who say even crazier things than him. Now that he has to ban people like Alex Jones and Ye for saying stupid shit, maybe Elon will start watching what he says? This is a chance for him to be more of the adult in the room now that he has such increased responsibilities. At the very least, Elon seems to have quickly learned that "free speech absolutism" is infeasible.

But this is Elon we are talking about so who knows?

I'd like to see this turn into a battle billionaire e billionaire.  Like, someone posts terrible, untrue things about Zuck or Bezos or Gates, and they sue Musk/Twitter.   Someone with the money to run a fierce legal battle against Twitter, and let's see what comes of it.   

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #296 on: December 04, 2022, 05:34:07 PM »
The recent performance art of Ye and Musk's strong negative reaction to it (as well as not reinstating Alex Jones's twitter account) suggests that Musk is not a free speech absolutist as claimed and perhaps is factoring in reputational and financial damage into his decisions at Twitter.

It would be a great improvement for Elon Musk if he would consider the reputational and financial damage of what gets said on his platform--most importantly, what he himself says. In the past, Elon has shown zero regard for the reputational and financial damage of things he has said, and has managed to ruin his reputation as a result.

I wonder if owning Twitter could teach Elon some important lessons about free speech and optics? As owner and CEO of Twitter, he has become responsible for people who say even crazier things than him. Now that he has to ban people like Alex Jones and Ye for saying stupid shit, maybe Elon will start watching what he says? This is a chance for him to be more of the adult in the room now that he has such increased responsibilities. At the very least, Elon seems to have quickly learned that "free speech absolutism" is infeasible.

But this is Elon we are talking about so who knows?
What makes Musk Musk is his rather uncompromising nature, but Ye and and Alex Jones broke him (then Ye incredibly broke Alex Jones on his own show!). Ye wins this round, though at great personal cost. I do find what Ye is doing interesting in the same way a horse running into a burning barn is fascinating. This has been worth at least a dozen Michael-Jackson-eating-popcorn memes.

I would prefer a push in the opposite direction for an absolutist Twitter. I find it interesting when elite institutions were predominantly conservative, the advocates for free speech were more on the left, and now that the situation has reversed, the advocates are more on the right. One very stark framing of what is going on with (un)civil discourse was provided by Mary Harrington recently, where she concludes:

Quote
The point is: forget the marketplace of ideas. Forget the secular interregnum. It’s over: even if you personally are still among the number mumbling about civil debate and tolerance, you’re surrounded by a growing array of factions who don’t play by those rules.

Sacred values become institutionalised as sacred, when true believers pull out all the stops to make that happen. And we’re back in an age of true believers. The phrase ‘post-liberal’ usually refers to an amiable, tweedy, vaguely Catholic-adjacent longing for a future of greater civic cohesion, underwritten by soft social conservatism; but the real post-liberal age is already here. And it’s not the tweedy vision. It’s a new era of schismatic, dogmatic, heretic-punishing religious war.

In actually existing post-liberalism, your worldview will be granted as much space as you’re willing to fight for, and no more. Blasphemy is dead; long live blasphemy. Plan accordingly.

GuitarStv

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #297 on: December 05, 2022, 06:49:23 AM »
Two weeks ago people were talking about twitting having only days left before the system came apart from losing too many key people and too much institutional knowledge. So far the site still seems to be running and we're seeing minor changes and tweaks so I don't think it's a case of just having working code on production servers and everyone left is just praying, not touching it and not making any sudden movements.

The wheels could still come off tomorrow. And it wouldn't surprise me if the stability we've seen so far has come at the expense of an awful lot of all-nighters from an awful lot of extremely stressed engineers. However, it it still seems worth taking a moment to note that the tech side of twitter* is holding up better than it was widely portrayed/forecast even a week ago.

*Policy side is a whole separate discussion.

I don't think too many people who know much about software development/maintenance were predicting an immediate twitter implosion.  Losing the large numbers of experienced people like twitter did isn't like popping a balloon.  It's a slow leak.  Unless twitter was massively and grossly overstaffed (which is possible) it will manifest in time with eventual outages, fewer software updates, mistakes that take down the service when updates are rolled out due to poor testing, bugs that don't get fixed, etc. if Musk doesn't replace the missing people.  (This isn't just with software either - there are many coming regulatory problems resulting from the firing of all the people in charge of compliance).

Sibley

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #298 on: December 05, 2022, 09:12:54 AM »
A Twitter employee wrote into Ask A Manager. I'm so glad I don't work there.
https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/update-i-work-at-twitter-what-do-i-do.html

Metalcat

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Re: Twitter
« Reply #299 on: December 05, 2022, 09:19:49 AM »
Two weeks ago people were talking about twitting having only days left before the system came apart from losing too many key people and too much institutional knowledge. So far the site still seems to be running and we're seeing minor changes and tweaks so I don't think it's a case of just having working code on production servers and everyone left is just praying, not touching it and not making any sudden movements.

The wheels could still come off tomorrow. And it wouldn't surprise me if the stability we've seen so far has come at the expense of an awful lot of all-nighters from an awful lot of extremely stressed engineers. However, it it still seems worth taking a moment to note that the tech side of twitter* is holding up better than it was widely portrayed/forecast even a week ago.

*Policy side is a whole separate discussion.

I don't think too many people who know much about software development/maintenance were predicting an immediate twitter implosion.  Losing the large numbers of experienced people like twitter did isn't like popping a balloon.  It's a slow leak.  Unless twitter was massively and grossly overstaffed (which is possible) it will manifest in time with eventual outages, fewer software updates, mistakes that take down the service when updates are rolled out due to poor testing, bugs that don't get fixed, etc. if Musk doesn't replace the missing people.  (This isn't just with software either - there are many coming regulatory problems resulting from the firing of all the people in charge of compliance).

I saw a ton of articles citing statements from former employees stating quite strongly that the didn't expect the system to hold up for more than a few days. That was many "few days" ago. So it was definitely part of the discourse that there was an imminent meltdown possible.

I know after reading so many stories saying the same thing, I was curious if that was actually the case or if it was just a good clickbait title to run with.

I've seen some sinking ships hold on for a shockingly long time. It's pretty wild how aggressively a company can bail a boat taking on water when it would otherwise sink quickly. I'm just watching patiently and curiously to see how this plays out. I'm most curious to see what impact this could have on the other tech giants who have made a lot of "we're going to squeeze you" noises to their staff over the last year.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!