Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 297611 times)

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Trump Voters.... why?
« on: July 30, 2016, 07:50:16 AM »
Let's just recap what we've seen thus far:

1. He called Mexicans rapists and demonstrated other racial hatred/insensitivity.
2. He has repeatedly made bigoted statements that shows he views women as nothing more than pieces of meat (even his own daughter, which is creepy as hell).
3. He wants to deport 11 million hard-working Mexicans and spend hundreds of billions on a meaningless wall (oh... sorry.... forgot Mexicans will pay for it).
4. He wants to violate Constitutional rights by rounding up and deporting Muslims.
5. He wants to isolate the US in the world economy.
6. He wants to tear down relationships with democratic allies.
7. He conjures up hate/fear/divisiveness to get votes.
8. He has very thin skin and lashes out at any opposition with immense anger, showing a temperament that is unqualified to lead a fast food restaurant, let alone the United States.
9. He constantly says stupid shit (or punts) in regards to domestic/foreign issues that proves he has no idea on the issues he should have an idea on.
10. He brings the least steady hand to a position that absolutely requires a steady hand (with financial markets and the rest of the world watching).
11. He brings on a VP who is one of the staunchest opponents of LBGT/women's rights in government, and even supports conversion therapy.
12. There are some huge red flags with his/Manafort's connection to Russia/Putin, which is a legitimate national security threat (even if you think he was 'joking' when he committed treason this week).
13. He has taken advantage of contractors, lenders, others by stiffing them in business deals and declaring bankruptcy 6 times.
14. The Trump U. scam and other corrupt business dealings.
15. He's made fun of those with disabilities.
16. He is the 1st presidential nominee that won't share his tax returns (what is he hiding there?).
17. He's on his 3rd wife.
18. He has repeatedly flipped on his positions (sometimes within the same conversation/debate).
19. He provides no ideas, plans, solutions to any of the issues he rails against outside of deporting people, building walls, and isolating the country.
20. Huge ego, puts his interests in front of the interests of all others.
21. Has banned/intimidated/threatened free press from events.
22. He has encouraged violence to protestors at his events.
23. He has zero legitimate foreign/domestic policy experience.
24. He is arguably the least qualified Presidential candidate in history.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff....

I have a genuine interest in understanding why/how any Mustachians could convince themselves to vote for this person.
I mean... let's just be honest here - this is an anonymous forum... Is it all about tax rates for the wealthy above all other principles for you to justify this? Do you legitimately harbor hatred towards certain races/females/others and has Trump struck a chord with you? Do you value train-wreck entertainment as more important than all the harm he could cause to your country? What is it exactly that would make you set aside all the negatives that he brings to the table and be inspired to vote for him?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 07:59:36 AM »
Even if all of your statements were true, and ignoring the ones that are just bigoted moral judgments about personal privacy and non-traditional marital relationships, a good answer would probably be that, despite all of these things mentioned above, Hillary is still a worse choice for President of the United States.

What an actual Trump voter thinks, however, I wouldn't know.

MrStash2000

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 08:10:11 AM »
Donald Trump and the Politics of Resentment - from the Archdruid Report 01/16/2016

Of all the predictions I made for the new year in my post two weeks ago, the one that seems to have stirred up the most distress and derision is my suggestion that the most likely person to be standing up there with his hand on a Bible next January, taking the oath of office as the next president of the United States, is Donald Trump. That prediction wasn’t made to annoy people, entertaining as that can be from time to time; nor is it merely a reaction to Trump’s meteoric rise in the polls and the abject failure of any of his forgettable Republican rivals even to slow him down.

The rise of Donald Trump, rather, marks the arrival of a turning point I’ve discussed more than once in these essays already. Like the other turning points whose impending appearance on the stage of the future has been outlined here, it’s not the end of the world; it’s thus a source of amusement to me to recall all those Republicans who insisted they were going to flee the country if Obama won reelection, and are still here, when I hear Democrats saying they’ll do the same thing if Trump wins. Still, there’s a difference of some importance between the two, because in terms of the historical trajectory of the United States, Trump is a far more significant figure than Barack Obama will ever be.

Despite the empty rhetoric about hope and change that surrounded his 2008 campaign, after all, Obama continued the policies of his predecessor George W. Bush so unswervingly that we may as well call those policies—the conventional wisdom or, rather, the conventional folly of early 21st-century American politics—the Dubyobama consensus. Trump’s candidacy, and in some ways that of his Democratic rival Bernard Sanders as well, marks the point at which the blowback from those policies has become a massive political fact. That this blowback isn’t taking the form desired by many people on the leftward end of things is hardly surprising; it was never going to do so, because the things about the Dubyobama consensus that made blowback inevitable are not the things to which the left objects.

To understand what follows, it’s going to be necessary to ask my readers—especially, though not only, those who consider themselves liberals, or see themselves inhabiting some other position left of center in the convoluted landscape of today’s American politics—to set aside two common habits. The first is the reflexive resort to sneering mockery that so often makes up for the absence of meaningful political thought in the US—again, especially but by no means only on the left. The dreary insults that have been flung so repetitively at Donald Trump over the course of his campaign are fine examples of the species: “deranged Cheeto,” “tomato-headed moron,” “delusional cheese creature,” and so on.

The centerpiece of most of these insults, when they’re not simply petulant schoolboy taunts aimed at Trump’s physical appearance, is the claim that he’s stupid. This is hardly surprising, as a lot of people on the leftward end of American culture love to use the kind of demeaning language that attributes idiocy to those who disagree with them. Thus it probably needs to be pointed out here that Trump is anything but stupid. He’s extraordinarily clever, and one measure of his cleverness is the way that he’s been able to lure so many of his opponents into behaving in ways that strengthen his appeal to the voters that matter most to his campaign. In case you’re wondering if you belong to that latter category, dear reader, if you like to send out tweets comparing Trump’s hair to Cheese Whiz, no, you’re not.

So that’s the first thing that has to be set aside to make sense of the Trump phenomenon. The second is going to be rather more challenging for many of my readers: the notion that the only divisions in American society that matter are those that have some basis in biology. Skin color, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability—these are the lines of division in society that Americans like to talk about, whatever their attitudes to the people who fall on one side or another of those lines. (Please note, by the way, the four words above: “some basis in biology.” I’m not saying that these categories are purely biological in nature; every one of them is defined in practice by a galaxy of cultural constructs and presuppositions, and the link to biology is an ostensive category marker rather than a definition. I insert this caveat because I’ve noticed that a great many people go out of their way to misunderstand the point I’m trying to make here.)

Are the lines of division just named important? Of course they are. Discriminatory treatment on the basis of those factors is a pervasive presence in American life today. The facts remain that there are other lines of division in American society that lack that anchor in biology, that some of these are at least as pervasive in American life as those listed above—and that some of the most important of these are taboo topics, subjects that most people in the US today will not talk about.

Here’s a relevant example. It so happens that you can determine a huge amount about the economic and social prospects of people in America today by asking one remarkably simple question: how do they get most of their income? Broadly speaking—there are exceptions, which I’ll get to in a moment—it’s from one of four sources: returns on investment, a monthly salary, an hourly wage, or a government welfare check. People who get most of their income from one of those four things have a great many interests in common, so much so that it’s meaningful to speak of the American people as divided into an investment class, a salary class, a wage class, and a welfare class.

It’s probably necessary to point out explicitly here that these classes aren’t identical to the divisions that Americans like to talk about. That is, there are plenty of people with light-colored skin in the welfare class, and plenty of people with darker skin in the wage class.  Things tend to become a good deal more lily-white in the two wealthier classes, though even there you do find people of color. In the same way, women, gay people, disabled people, and so on are found in all four classes, and how they’re treated depends a great deal on which of these classes they’re in. If you’re a disabled person, for example, your chances of getting meaningful accommodations to help you deal with your disability are by and large considerably higher if you bring home a salary than they are if you work for a wage.

As noted above, there are people who don’t fall into those divisions. I’m one of them; as a writer, I get most of my income from royalties on book sales, which means that a dollar or so from every book of mine that sells via most channels, and rather less than that if it’s sold by Amazon—those big discounts come straight out of your favorite authors’ pockets—gets mailed to me twice a year. There are so few people who make their living this way that the royalty classlet isn’t a significant factor in American society. The same is true of most of the other ways of making a living in the US today. Even the once-mighty profit class, the people who get their income from the profit they make on their own business activities, is small enough these days that it lacks a significant collective presence.

There’s a vast amount that could be said about the four major classes just outlined, but I want to focus on the political dimension, because that’s where they take on overwhelming relevance as the 2016 presidential campaign lurches on its way. Just as the four classes can be identified by way of a very simple question, the political dynamite that’s driving the blowback mentioned earlier can be seen by way of another simple question: over the last half century or so, how have the four classes fared?

The answer, of course, is that three of the four have remained roughly where they were. The investment class has actually had a bit of a rough time, as many of the investment vehicles that used to provide it with stable incomes—certificates of deposit, government bonds, and so on—have seen interest rates drop through the floor.  Still, alternative investments and frantic government manipulations of stock market prices have allowed most people in the investment class to keep up their accustomed lifestyles.

The salary class, similarly, has maintained its familiar privileges and perks through a half century of convulsive change. Outside of a few coastal urban areas currently in the grip of speculative bubbles, people whose income comes mostly from salaries can generally afford to own their homes, buy new cars every few years, leave town for annual vacations, and so on. On the other end of the spectrum, the welfare class has continued to scrape by pretty much as before, dealing with the same bleak realities of grinding poverty, intrusive government bureacracy, and a galaxy of direct and indirect barriers to full participation in the national life, as their equivalents did back in 1966.

And the wage class? Over the last half century, the wage class has been destroyed.

In 1966 an American family with one breadwinner working full time at an hourly wage could count on having a home, a car, three square meals a day, and the other ordinary necessities of life, with some left over for the occasional luxury. In 2016, an American family with one breadwinner working full time at an hourly wage is as likely as not to end up living on the street, and a vast number of people who would happily work full time even under those conditions can find only part-time or temporary work when they can find any jobs at all. The catastrophic impoverishment and immiseration of the American wage class is one of the most massive political facts of our time—and it’s also one of the most unmentionable. Next to nobody is willing to talk about it, or even admit that it happened.

The destruction of the wage class was largely accomplished by way of two major shifts in American economic life. The first was the dismantling of the American industrial economy and its replacement by  Third World sweatshops; the second was mass immigration from Third World countries. Both of these measures are ways of driving down wages—not, please note, salaries, returns on investment, or welfare payments—by slashing the number of wage-paying jobs, on the one hand, while boosting the number of people competing for them on the other. Both, in turn, were actively encouraged by government policies and, despite plenty of empty rhetoric on one or the other side of the Congressional aisle, both of them had, for all practical purposes, bipartisan support from the political establishment.

It’s probably going to be necessary to talk a bit about that last point. Both parties, despite occasional bursts of crocodile tears for American workers and their families, have backed the offshoring of jobs to the hilt. Immigration is a slightly more complex matter; the Democrats claim to be in favor of it, the Republicans now and then claim to oppose it, but what this means in practice is that legal immigration is difficult but illegal immigration is easy. The result was the creation of an immense work force of noncitizens who have no economic or political rights they have any hope of enforcing, which could then be used—and has been used, over and over again—to drive down wages, degrade working conditions, and advance the interests of employers over those of wage-earning employees.

The next point that needs to be discussed here—and it’s the one at which a very large number of my readers are going to balk—is who benefited from the destruction of the American wage class. It’s long been fashionable in what passes for American conservatism to insist that everyone benefits from the changes just outlined, or to claim that if anybody doesn’t, it’s their own fault. It’s been equally popular in what passes for American liberalism to insist that the only people who benefit from those changes are the villainous uber-capitalists who belong to the 1%. Both these are evasions, because the destruction of the wage class has disproportionately benefited one of the four classes I sketched out above: the salary class.

Here’s how that works. Since the 1970s, the salary class lifestyle sketched out above—suburban homeownership, a new car every couple of years, vacations in Mazatlan, and so on—has been an anachronism: in James Howard Kunstler’s useful phrase, an arrangement without a future. It was wholly a product of the global economic dominance the United States wielded in the wake of the Second World War, when every other major industrial nation on the planet had its factories pounded to rubble by the bomber fleets of the warring powers, and the oil wells of Pennsylvania, Texas, and California pumped more oil than the rest of the planet put together.  That dominance went away in a hurry, though, when US conventional petroleum production peaked in 1970, and the factories of Europe and Asia began to outcompete America’s industrial heartland.

The only way for the salary class to maintain its lifestyle in the teeth of those transformations was to force down the cost of goods and services relative to the average buying power of the salary class.  Because the salary class exercised (and still exercises) a degree of economic and political influence disproportionate to its size, this became the order of the day in the 1970s, and it remains the locked-in political consensus in American public life to this day. The destruction of the wage class was only one consequence of that project—the spectacular decline in quality of the whole range of manufactured goods for sale in America, and the wholesale gutting of the national infrastructure, are other results—but it’s the consequence that matters in terms of today’s politics.

It’s worth noting, along these same lines, that every remedy that’s been offered to the wage class by the salary class has benefited the salary class at the expense of the wage class. Consider the loud claims of the last couple of decades that people left unemployed by the disappearance of wage-paying jobs could get back on board the bandwagon of prosperity by going to college and getting job training. That didn’t work out well for the people who signed up for the student loans and took the classes—getting job training, after all, isn’t particularly helpful if the jobs for which you’re being trained don’t exist, and so a great many former wage earners finished their college careers with no better job prospects than they had before, and hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt burdening them into the bargain. For the banks and colleges that pushed the loans and taught the classes, though, these programs were a cash cow of impressive scale, and the people who work for banks and colleges are mostly salary class.

Attempts by people in the wage class to mount any kind of effective challenge to the changes that have gutted their economic prospects and consigned them to a third-rate future have done very little so far. To some extent, that’s a function of the GOP’s sustained effort to lure wage class voters into backing Republican candidates on religious and moral grounds. It’s the mirror image of the ruse that’s been used by the Democratic party on a galaxy of interests on the leftward end of things—granted, the Democrats aren’t doing a thing about the issues that matter most to you, but neither are the Republicans, so you vote for the party that offends you least. Right? Sure, if you want to guarantee that the interests that matter most to you never get addressed at all.

There’s a further barrier, though, and that’s the response of the salary class across the board—left, right, middle, you name it—to any attempt by the wage class to bring up the issues that matter to it. On the rare occasions when this happens in the public sphere, the spokespeople of the wage class get shouted down with a double helping of the sneering mockery I discussed toward the beginning of this post. The same thing happens on a different scale on those occasions when the same thing happens in private. If you doubt this—and you probably do, if you belong to the salary class—try this experiment: get a bunch of your salary class friends together in some casual context and get them talking about ordinary American working guys. What you’ll hear will range from crude caricatures and one-dimensional stereotypes right on up to bona fide hate speech. People in the wage class are aware of this; they’ve heard it all; they’ve been called stupid, ignorant, etc., ad nauseam for failing to agree with whatever bit of self-serving dogma some representative of the salary class tried to push on them.

And that, dear reader, is where Donald Trump comes in.

The man is brilliant. I mean that without the smallest trace of mockery. He’s figured out that the most effective way to get the wage class to rally to his banner is to get himself attacked, with the usual sort of shrill mockery, by the salary class. The man’s worth several billion dollars—do you really think he can’t afford to get the kind of hairstyle that the salary class finds acceptable? Of course he can; he’s deliberately chosen otherwise, because he knows that every time some privileged buffoon in the media or on the internet trots out another round of insults directed at his failure to conform to salary class ideas of fashion, another hundred thousand wage class voters recall the endless sneering putdowns they’ve experienced from the salary class and think, “Trump’s one of us.”

The identical logic governs his deliberate flouting of the current rules of acceptable political discourse. Have you noticed that every time Trump says something that sends the pundits into a swivet, and the media starts trying to convince itself and its listeners that this time he’s gone too far and his campaign will surely collapse in humiliation, his poll numbers go up?  What he’s saying is exactly the sort of thing that you’ll hear people say in working class taverns and bowling alleys when subjects such as illegal immigration and Muslim jihadi terrorism come up for discussion. The shrieks of the media simply confirm, in the minds of the wage class voters to whom his appeal is aimed, that he’s one of them, an ordinary Joe with sensible ideas who’s being dissed by the suits.

Notice also how many of Trump’s unacceptable-to-the-pundits comments have focused with laser precision on the issue of immigration. That’s a well-chosen opening wedge, as cutting off illegal immigration is something that the GOP has claimed to support for a while now. As Trump broadens his lead, in turn, he’s started to talk about the other side of the equation—the offshoring of jobs—as his recent jab at Apple’s overseas sweatshops shows. The mainstream media’s response to that jab does a fine job of proving the case argued above: “If smartphones were made in the US, we’d have to pay more for them!” And of course that’s true: the salary class will have to pay more for its toys if the wage class is going to have decent jobs that pay enough to support a family. That this is unthinkable for so many people in the salary class—that they’re perfectly happy allowing their electronics to be made for starvation wages in an assortment of overseas hellholes, so long as this keeps the price down—may help explain the boiling cauldron of resentment into which Trump is so efficiently tapping.

It’s by no means certain that Trump will ride that resentment straight to the White House, though at this moment it does seem like the most likely outcome. Still, I trust none of my readers are naive enough to think that a Trump defeat will mean the end of the phenomenon that’s lifted him to front runner status in the teeth of everything the political establishment can throw at him. I see the Trump candidacy as a major watershed in American political life, the point at which the wage class—the largest class of American voters, please note—has begun to wake up to its potential power and begin pushing back against the ascendancy of the salary class.

Whether he wins or loses, that pushback is going to be a defining force in American politics for decades to come. Nor is a Trump candidacy anything approaching the worst form that could take. If Trump gets defeated, especially if it’s done by obviously dishonest means, the next leader to take up the cause of the wage class could very well be fond of armbands or, for that matter, of roadside bombs. Once the politics of resentment come into the open, anything can happen—and this is particularly true, it probably needs to be said, when the resentment in question is richly justified by the behavior of many of those against whom it’s directed.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 08:12:48 AM by clarkevii »

MandalayVA

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2016, 08:34:33 AM »
I was around when Donald Trump came on hard in the eighties.  If nothing else, he's consistent.  His ego is enormous and his mouth is unchecked.  A lot of people then, as now, said "ooh, how refreshing!"  He is VERY good at telling people what they want to hear.  He is HORRIBLE at any sort of compromise.  He is so used to getting his way all the time in everything that he has no idea what to do when he can't, which WILL happen if he becomes president.  When even what seems like most of his own party, at least the higher-ups, want nothing to do with him, how does he honestly expect to get anything done?  I don't see him working with Congress at all, that's not his style.

chad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 08:38:29 AM »
Many Trump supporters see several of the items on your list as a positive--proof that he's not PC. Here's my list, which I like better, and which I think is more likely to convince people who are considering Trump:

1. Trump has said he's going to suppress media he doesn't like, in part by "opening up the libel laws" and by abuse of the FCC.

2. He has said that Obama "led the way" for abuse of executive authority and governing by executive order.

3. He has made positive (often quite admiring) statements about Putin, Kim Jong Un, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, the Communist Chinese government, and Erdogon. He even defended Putin's murder of journalists, and claimed a moral equivalence with American policy.

4. His people have weakened the Republican platform on Russia.

5. He has said he would order the military to target innocent civilians. When challenged that the military might not follow orders, he assured the reporter that they would follow his orders.

6. He's for torture, and we're not just talking about waterboarding here.

7. He's stated that he'd like to "close up the internet" in certain cases for the purposes of national security.

8. He's called for possibly using the power of the federal government to force certain mosques to close.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2016, 08:52:00 AM »
Many Trump supporters see several of the items on your list as a positive--proof that he's not PC.

I like your list, but can you expand on that quote?

That's why I asked "Do you legitimately harbor hatred towards certain races/females/others and has Trump struck a chord with you?". If you're a racist, bigoted, homophobic, and/or anti-XYZ religions - let's just be honest and call it for what it is.

Also on that note, shouldn't the President of the United States and leader of the free world be "PC", when the alternative in this case is making hateful, disparaging, divisive, racist and bigoted statements?

chad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2016, 09:02:26 AM »
I'm not a Trump supporter. I agree that Trump is a lowlife. I just think I can see clearly that every time someone calls Trump a racist or whatever, his support gets stronger. There is a segment of society that has grown tired of trying to keep up with the language engineering that goes on at university campuses, and they see him as a champion.

iris lily

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2016, 09:39:27 AM »
Have actual Trump supporters chimed in on ths thread? Anyone gonna let 'em?

In my immediate circle of friends, I know three business women, all with advanced degrees and IQ's a good 15-35 points higher than mine, who support him.

The analysis above of wage earners loving Trump may be right in the big picture, but in my circle, nope. Also in my circle Republicans otherwise are not supporting him.


EricL

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2016, 10:16:18 AM »
I have to admit I get a guilty pleasure out of watching Trump open his mouth. Each time he does so he skewers some liberal sacred cow. I love hearing the pompous PC elites squeal in horror. These sacred cows have been defining distractions in American politics for decades. I'm tired of discussion dominated by divisive minorities and abortion. I sometimes think that's all the Democratic Party exists for. I'm pretty sure Hillary's gonna spend her time in office blowing bankers and minorities-in that order. Result: equal employment for gays in a job market where nobody has jobs. With a side order of pollution caused cancer because she turned her back on the environment.

That said, I hold most of those sacred cows sacred myself. And while it's charming to think Trump is a genius who will demonstrate that while in office, I've yet to see an inkling of it.  I believe in this case the book cover is the book.  He says stupid and obnoxious things because he's stupid and obnoxious. If he gets elected its because Americans unconsciously decided the Republic is done for and they need to get the death spiral going so something new and hopefully better can come along.

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2016, 11:00:11 AM »
I would've voted for Hillary in the '08 election. She was my second choice, after Mitt Romney. I thought McCain was a buffoon and Obama was naïve, so I ended up writing in Gregory Mankiw (I live in IL, so my vote does not count for crap anyways).

However, over the last 8 years, the Democrats have shifted hard to the left on both economic and social issues. I refuse to vote for any Democrats at any level of government until they moderate and pull their head out of their rear end.  That means kicking Sanders and his supporters out, along with Black Lives Matter, along with Lena Dunham and Sarah Silverman, along with the pro-illegal immigrant faction that has essentially taken over their party.

Note: I understand the Republicans are also growing increasingly radical, but I think a lot of the "Republicans are ruining everything" rhetoric is overblown. The biggest problem with Republicans is they have become dependent on the votes of the elderly, which makes it impossible for them to seriously push entitlement reform anymore.

I also think the negatives of Trump will be successfully contained by the other two branches. Checks and balances still exist.

Trump was my 4th choice, after Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, and Marco Rubio, who all, sadly, lost. Trump is the consensus candidate of the party, as sad as that may be. Oh well.

A lot of the people in my social circle think essentially similar to the "Democrats have gone crazy" narrative, even if it isn't in the media. A lot of them were also Obama supporters, so they have a lot of disillusionment built up over the last 8 years. A lot of them also think Hillary is by far the most corrupt candidate and hasn't accomplished anything.

A few quick anecdotes:
-My Wife voted for Obama and was a big supporter. She also voted for him in '12 because she didn't think Romney's tax plan would work. However, her tune changed when she went to a LOCAL government, talked to rank-and-file Democrats, and learned that SHE was one of the rich people that isn't "paying their fair share."
She also was disgusted by the illegal immigrants showcased at the Democratic Convention.
-My Best Man voted for Obama in 2008, and Romney in 2012. He thinks Democrats are weak on foreign policy and just handed the world away. He's a first generation Polish immigrant but he loves Trump because he thinks Trump isn't a coward and isn't horribly corrupt like Hillary. He also ain't the biggest fan of illegal immigration.
-My Mother voted for Obama in 2008 because she thinks everyone should have healthcare. She feels that the Democrats have been unsuccessful in creating jobs and just have been giving money away, so she won't vote for Hillary. However, she can't vote for Trump either (because he's an ass), so she's voting for Gary Johnson.
-One of my online buddies in battle-ground PA voted for Obama in '08 and '12. He thought McCain lost sight of his moderate politics in '08 and didn't like Palin. He, again, thought Romney's tax plans in 2012 were bogus. However, he also does not like the identity politics of the left, so he's voting R. He's extremely against political dynasties as well, so he was rooting for Sanders and Trump, just to crash and burn the Clinton and Bush families. He's essentially cut of the old Republican Virtue cloth, to the extent that he speaks Latin because it was the language of Cincinnatus, so he's probably not reflective of the population as a whole.


On a side note, I may be biased. I live in Illinois, which is extremely liberal, and grew up during the Daily Show era. I do not like the smug liberalness that is common in my social circle. This probably biases me a lot. Not sure how much, but it's there.


In regards to your specific points, this is how I interpret them. This is not meant to be confrontational, just a peek into my mind specifically when people raise these points:


1. He called Mexicans rapists and demonstrated other racial hatred/insensitivity. Feature, not bug. A lot of us think political correctness is insane as currently practiced. I am virtually color-blind (my Wife had to tell me I actually have black friends, I just didn't realize they were black), but this is currently interpreted as "erasing their race." Which is, yeah, the point.
2. He has repeatedly made bigoted statements that shows he views women as nothing more than pieces of meat (even his own daughter, which is creepy as hell). This just isn't true. Trump has promoted a lot of women to high posts. He clearly does not think of women as just "pieces of meat." In regards to some of his classless remarks, so? Carly Fiorina is ugly and that means she isn't going to be President. It's not sexist in any meaningful way to say that.
3. He wants to deport 11 million hard-working Mexicans and spend hundreds of billions on a meaningless wall (oh... sorry.... forgot Mexicans will pay for it). See, when you say this, I just shake my head. There are a 11-12 million illegal immigrants. Not 11-12 million Mexicans. Some do not work at all, and most are in low value-add positions. They aren't space engineers. Either way, if he can actually do it? Good for him! They are here illegaly.
4. He wants to violate Constitutional rights by rounding up and deporting Muslims. Where did he say this? Either way, a Trump Presidency will be kinder to Muslims than the current German and French governments, which are currently raiding Mosques.
5. He wants to isolate the US in the world economy. I am a free trade kind of guy, but I am slowly wavering on this position.
6. He wants to tear down relationships with democratic allies. This is the long-term trend anyways. I don't support it, but it's not Trump's fault. It's the fault of our democratic allies.
7. He conjures up hate/fear/divisiveness to get votes. This is what I see Democrats doing.
8. He has very thin skin and lashes out at any opposition with immense anger, showing a temperament that is unqualified to lead a fast food restaurant, let alone the United States. I am conflicted on this. He comes across as a cry-baby. On the other hand, he is lashing out at a lot of entitled morons who need a good verbal lashing.
9. He constantly says stupid shit (or punts) in regards to domestic/foreign issues that proves he has no idea on the issues he should have an idea on. Par for course. Both sides do this, from my POV.
10. He brings the least steady hand to a position that absolutely requires a steady hand (with financial markets and the rest of the world watching). Yeah, he seems like a cry baby and a bit unstable.
11. He brings on a VP who is one of the staunchest opponents of LBGT/women's rights in government, and even supports conversion therapy. There are no opponents of women's rights in US government. Practically everyone in the US government is a product of second-wave or third-wave feminism. As Nixon would say, we are all feminists now. These are fights over increasingly marginal issues. As for the LGBT community, Indiana should be allowed to pass laws that its citizens feel are good for it. I am more concerned with the federal government reinterpreting existing legislation to prohibit discrimination on sexual orientation. If you want to protect gays, pass a law, don't invent it out of thin air.
12. There are some huge red flags with his/Manafort's connection to Russia/Putin, which is a legitimate national security threat (even if you think he was 'joking' when he committed treason this week). Literal yawn. These attacks all seem like desperate Hail Mary rhetorical attacks.
13. He has taken advantage of contractors, lenders, others by stiffing them in business deals and declaring bankruptcy 6 times. That's what "bankruptcy" is.
14. The Trump U. scam and other corrupt business dealings. Yeah, this is extremely under-handed, despicable behavior. I never said I liked the guy.
15. He's made fun of those with disabilities. By far the worst thing he has done, I agree. See above.
16. He is the 1st presidential nominee that won't share his tax returns (what is he hiding there?). And let's not forget his birth certificate!
17. He's on his 3rd wife. Again, I never said I liked the guy. On a personal level, Obama is a far better person than Trump. But we're talking who should be President. Sometimes the best choice for President is a jerk.
18. He has repeatedly flipped on his positions (sometimes within the same conversation/debate). Standard.
19. He provides no ideas, plans, solutions to any of the issues he rails against outside of deporting people, building walls, and isolating the country. Standard.
20. Huge ego, puts his interests in front of the interests of all others. This seems speculative. I really cannot divine what's in his heart, to this level.
21. Has banned/intimidated/threatened free press from events. As my friend asked me, "when did media become Tumblr?" The media has lost any moral standing. There are a few outfits I respect, regardless of political alignment, but the majority of New Media and a lot of Old Media is garbage at this point.
22. He has encouraged violence to protestors at his events. This isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's more posturing about how crappy the behavior of the protestors is.
23. He has zero legitimate foreign/domestic policy experience. The last President with any reasonable foreign policy experience was Bush I, and the last President with great credentials was Nixon.
24. He is arguably the least qualified Presidential candidate in history. Maybe you're measuring the wrong things.

rothnroll

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2016, 11:10:07 AM »
Because I do not like "Lying Crooked Hillary"
I voted for Obama, but there is no way I am voting for her.
She is a disaster.
Trump represents the change that we thought we were getting with Obama.
 

davisgang90

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2016, 11:36:47 AM »
Because I'm in favor or more individual freedoms and less government.  I don't know if I'll get that with Trump, but I know I won't   get it with Clinton.

Lagom

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2016, 11:39:28 AM »
Because I do not like "Lying Crooked Hillary"
I voted for Obama, but there is no way I am voting for her.
She is a disaster.
Trump represents the change that we thought we were getting with Obama.

The last is more or less what I hear from the people I know who support Trump, including some very smart individuals. Basically, their reasoning seems to be that all of the racist, sexist, etc., stuff is just posturing--akin to Nixon's southern strategy, I suppose. It's not that my acquaintances are cheering along when he says those things (I honestly don't think any are particularly racist or sexist), but they are willing to forgive them because what they are more interested in is his potential to break up politics as usual and clear out a lot of the broken machinery in DC. I personally consider that view to be wildly optimistic, but I am on record that I think Trump's ceiling for effecting positive change is much higher than Hillary's. The problem is that his floor is terrifyingly deep.

retiringearly

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2016, 12:25:55 PM »
The one word answer is "immigration".

This is a top issue for some voters and Trump really managed to appeal to them from his first speech in a way no other candidate was doing. The more the media and democrats attacked him for his controversial statements the more his fans liked his ability to be fearlessly politically incorrect with such a contentious topic.

Personally I think he's a buffoon, but I can see the appeal for someone who has immigration as a top issue and who disdains what they see as identity politics and political correctness from the democrats.

On a broader level it's also about "nationalism" vs "globalization". Recently there appears to be increasing skepticism of the benefits of economic globalization, the feeling that global trade only benefits an elite minority rather than the broader community. This is reflected in the vote for Brexit in the UK and the protests against the TPP in the US and Europe.

So for a certain type of person, I can actually see why Trump makes a lot of sense.

And of course you'll always have the people who'll vote Republican no matter what because they just can't stand the Democrats and they don't want to waste their vote.
Incorrect.  It isn't about "immigration".  It is about "ILLEGAL immigration".  There is a tiny difference.

retiringearly

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2016, 12:27:32 PM »
To a plan comes together, how about watching this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2016, 01:01:14 PM »
What I just can't understand how anyone could back someone who's entire personality and demeanor is that of a school yard bully. He calls people childish names, picks on people with disabilities, taunts women based on appearance, he picks fights with people, blames everyone but himself, and then sulks when he thinks he's being disrespect. And when anyone actually calls him on it, he resorts to the typical bully defense, "I was only making a joke." Honestly these are the behaviors that would get a kid sent to the office, suspended and hopefully some therapy.  These are the behaviors that decent people would be horrified if they found their own children doing. But with Trump people want to elect him as President? I just don't get it.

EMP

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2016, 01:08:29 PM »
I'm debating between HRC and Stein in a deeply red state, so take this with a grain of salt.

When he's speaking about blaming people's terrible situations on specific minority groups or women, he's at least acknowledging that people are suffering. The Dems in general are saying look at all these (bullshit, mainly) stats that show you're doing fine. They are denying the fundamental question of the election. Even when she tries to talk about it, HRC sounds like she's ticking off a prepared list rather than really speaking to peoples' pain.

Bernie was my guy, and I'm about sick to death of my friends that have incomes 4 or 5 times mine harping on the importance of voting for HRC. She represents them, not me, and I may be able to choke back my bile and do it, but that shit isn't making it any easier.


dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2016, 01:10:42 PM »
What I just can't understand how anyone could back someone who's entire personality and demeanor is that of a school yard bully. He calls people childish names, picks on people with disabilities, taunts women based on appearance, he picks fights with people, blames everyone but himself, and then sulks when he thinks he's being disrespect. And when anyone actually calls him on it, he resorts to the typical bully defense, "I was only making a joke." Honestly these are the behaviors that would get a kid sent to the office, suspended and hopefully some therapy.  These are the behaviors that decent people would be horrified if they found their own children doing. But with Trump people want to elect him as President? I just don't get it.

And I forgot to add that Trump actually flaunts his bullying behavior. There is no dispute whatsoever regarding his character in this regard.

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2016, 01:12:47 PM »
I'm debating between HRC and Stein in a deeply red state, so take this with a grain of salt.

When he's speaking about blaming people's terrible situations on specific minority groups or women, he's at least acknowledging that people are suffering. The Dems in general are saying look at all these (bullshit, mainly) stats that show you're doing fine. They are denying the fundamental question of the election. Even when she tries to talk about it, HRC sounds like she's ticking off a prepared list rather than really speaking to peoples' pain.

Bernie was my guy, and I'm about sick to death of my friends that have incomes 4 or 5 times mine harping on the importance of voting for HRC. She represents them, not me, and I may be able to choke back my bile and do it, but that shit isn't making it any easier.

I watched Clinton's speech and she did indeed mention that not everyone was prospering that not everyone had enjoyed the benefits of the recovery and that more work needed to be done. But yeah, up on a stage, she will never be the Bill Clinton "I can feel your pain" kind of politician. I've heard several accounts that when meeting with people one on one, she is completely different.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2016, 01:55:28 PM »
As near as I can tell, voting for Trump is the political equivalent of "rolling coal."

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2016, 01:59:25 PM »
As near as I can tell, voting for Trump is the political equivalent of "rolling coal."

Had to look that one up. Damn! That's a really solid analogy.

EMP

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2016, 02:19:21 PM »
I'm debating between HRC and Stein in a deeply red state, so take this with a grain of salt.

When he's speaking about blaming people's terrible situations on specific minority groups or women, he's at least acknowledging that people are suffering. The Dems in general are saying look at all these (bullshit, mainly) stats that show you're doing fine. They are denying the fundamental question of the election. Even when she tries to talk about it, HRC sounds like she's ticking off a prepared list rather than really speaking to peoples' pain.

Bernie was my guy, and I'm about sick to death of my friends that have incomes 4 or 5 times mine harping on the importance of voting for HRC. She represents them, not me, and I may be able to choke back my bile and do it, but that shit isn't making it any easier.

I watched Clinton's speech and she did indeed mention that not everyone was prospering that not everyone had enjoyed the benefits of the recovery and that more work needed to be done. But yeah, up on a stage, she will never be the Bill Clinton "I can feel your pain" kind of politician. I've heard several accounts that when meeting with people one on one, she is completely different.

I saw the speech too. Her references to that were 1. Robotic and 2. Undermined by her rolling back Obama's prohibitions against lobbyist donations.

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2016, 02:24:20 PM »
I'm debating between HRC and Stein in a deeply red state, so take this with a grain of salt.

When he's speaking about blaming people's terrible situations on specific minority groups or women, he's at least acknowledging that people are suffering. The Dems in general are saying look at all these (bullshit, mainly) stats that show you're doing fine. They are denying the fundamental question of the election. Even when she tries to talk about it, HRC sounds like she's ticking off a prepared list rather than really speaking to peoples' pain.

Bernie was my guy, and I'm about sick to death of my friends that have incomes 4 or 5 times mine harping on the importance of voting for HRC. She represents them, not me, and I may be able to choke back my bile and do it, but that shit isn't making it any easier.

I watched Clinton's speech and she did indeed mention that not everyone was prospering that not everyone had enjoyed the benefits of the recovery and that more work needed to be done. But yeah, up on a stage, she will never be the Bill Clinton "I can feel your pain" kind of politician. I've heard several accounts that when meeting with people one on one, she is completely different.

I saw the speech too. Her references to that were 1. Robotic and 2. Undermined by her rolling back Obama's prohibitions against lobbyist donations.

On #1, ???? - What's that have to do with the price of tea in China?

On #2, ???? - What in the world are you talking about?

EMP

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2016, 02:53:16 PM »
Sorry, baby is making things difficult.

Robotic - if one is merely hitting a list of talking points, I have a hard time I have a hard time believing you are sincere.

Point 2. If you feel like your suffering is caused by the 1%, our corporate overlords, etc and the most important issue is getting $$$ out of politics issuing a gold plated invitation to lobbyists to buy ambassadorships (per ny times, as linked by Robert Reich) is not inspiring confidence.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2016, 03:31:22 PM »
He reminds me of Rob Ford on a bigger stage.  A lot of Torontonians loved him, the ROC watched in wonder (and horror).  Hey, he made Ottawa city politics look sane. At least no crack cocaine with Trump (dare I say, so far?).

I have to say, you guys are making our system look good*.  3.5 major parties (one only in Quebec) plus bits and pieces of others.

*
Liberal Conservative  NDP     BQ   Green  Independent Vacant
183         98             44       10    1          1           1

And for all the Tech types out there, courtesy of The Joy of Tech
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/2314.html
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/index.html

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2016, 06:04:41 PM »
He is so used to getting his way all the time in everything that he has no idea what to do when he can't, which WILL happen if he becomes president.  When even what seems like most of his own party, at least the higher-ups, want nothing to do with him, how does he honestly expect to get anything done?  I don't see him working with Congress at all, that's not his style.

Huh.

You just offered the best argument I've heard for voting for Trump.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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chad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2016, 06:11:14 PM »
Quote
Huh.

You just offered the best argument I've heard for voting for Trump.

Unless what this really means is that he'll act independently of congress.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2016, 08:37:28 PM »
Regardless of his policies, the support for him (at least from a distance) seems to be incredibly passionate, almost cultish.

My guess is that a lot of people believe the current system is broken, and that what he suggests will fix things. Whether that is the case, time may tell.

I'm kinda wishing I put a bet on a Trump win six or twelve months ago. Even though I totally disagree with him, I think he's riding a wave of support that's likely to continue until November.

That and I've already recently sold some investments, due to the anticipated market mayhem afterwards.

iris lily

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2016, 08:52:16 PM »
The one word answer is "immigration".

This is a top issue for some voters and Trump really managed to appeal to them from his first speech in a way no other candidate was doing. The more the media and democrats attacked him for his controversial statements the more his fans liked his ability to be fearlessly politically incorrect with such a contentious topic.

Personally I think he's a buffoon, but I can see the appeal for someone who has immigration as a top issue and who disdains what they see as identity politics and political correctness from the democrats.

On a broader level it's also about "nationalism" vs "globalization". Recently there appears to be increasing skepticism of the benefits of economic globalization, the feeling that global trade only benefits an elite minority rather than the broader community. This is reflected in the vote for Brexit in the UK and the protests against the TPP in the US and Europe.

So for a certain type of person, I can actually see why Trump makes a lot of sense.

And of course you'll always have the people who'll vote Republican no matter what because they just can't stand the Democrats and they don't want to waste their vote.
Incorrect.  It isn't about "immigration".  It is about "ILLEGAL immigration".  There is a tiny difference.
This reminds me of th NPR report from the Republican convention a couple of weeks ago. The female reporter centered her talk on immigration. She earnestly explained that to
Republicans there is a big difference between immigration and illegal immigration. (!) Who knew!!???

They can be insufferable on NPR.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2016, 09:32:06 PM »
Quote
Huh.

You just offered the best argument I've heard for voting for Trump.

Unless what this really means is that he'll act independently of congress.
But the only thing the President can do independently of congress is to start a war isn't it?

EMP

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2016, 09:40:51 PM »
Quote
Huh.

You just offered the best argument I've heard for voting for Trump.

Unless what this really means is that he'll act independently of congress.
But the only thing the President can do independently of congress is to start a war isn't it?

Executive orders. Really disturbing to think of how this could be abused by Drumpf.

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2016, 09:42:42 PM »
Quote
Huh.

You just offered the best argument I've heard for voting for Trump.

Unless what this really means is that he'll act independently of congress.
But the only thing the President can do independently of congress is to start a war isn't it?

Congress declares war.

But he could send troops on a non-war "conflict."

I sure wouldn't put it past him, but on the other hand, I think he's more isolationist, and I actually think Clinton is more likely to get us more involved in military action than Trump is.  She's just so hawkish.  It's probably the only benefit I can think of for him over her.

There's plenty president can without Congress.  Hell, with the bullshit "signing statements," presidents can basically write laws (as when they sign other laws into effect, they can just "add on" to them), something the legislative branch only does, in theory, in our checks and balances system.   And, of course, nominate Supreme Court justices.
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nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2016, 10:30:27 PM »
Didn't official wars stop at Korea - all the ones since then have been "enhanced overseas camping trips"

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2016, 06:27:49 AM »
Sorry, baby is making things difficult.

Robotic - if one is merely hitting a list of talking points, I have a hard time I have a hard time believing you are sincere.

Point 2. If you feel like your suffering is caused by the 1%, our corporate overlords, etc and the most important issue is getting $$$ out of politics issuing a gold plated invitation to lobbyists to buy ambassadorships (per ny times, as linked by Robert Reich) is not inspiring confidence.

So if one is a mediocre public speaker and cannot appear emotive and sincere, an objective person should judge the speaker as being insincere? Or in simpler terms one's ability to appear sincere is what determines whether they are sincere? Reminds me of an old Doctor Who quote, but with reverse logic:
Romana: But he had such an HONEST face.
Doctor: Romana, you can't be a successful thief with a DISHONEST face!

On point #2, I'm sorry but that is still a bit incoherent. Trying to match it up with your original point, you seem to be saying that Clinton will give special access to moneyed interest. That IS a fairly predictable outcome, considering that seems to happen in every single presidential administration. Even Obama (whom you seem to think adhered to a higher standard) did that to one degree or another. I'm not sure why Hillary Clinton in particular deserves to be called out for that. To put it another way, we know that sort of thing happened with Bill Clinton's administration and I'm sure a good many folks would reelect him in a heartbeat.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:30:07 AM by dramaman »

Squirrel away

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2016, 09:23:16 AM »

In my immediate circle of friends, I know three business women, all with advanced degrees and IQ's a good 15-35 points higher than mine, who support him.



As an interested onlooker from the UK, I find that so bizarre!:D


iris lily

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2016, 09:53:10 AM »

In my immediate circle of friends, I know three business women, all with advanced degrees and IQ's a good 15-35 points higher than mine, who support him.



As an interested onlooker from the UK, I find that so bizarre!:D

Yes, it does not fit the  narrative of our mainstream media.

I will say that for at least two of my Trump,supprtng friends, the illegal immigrant problem is big and it was an issue for them before Trump even came into the picture.

One of these women, an ivy league grad, even runs an international company. She has done busness with Carly Fiorna (an early Republican candidate from the business world) and was supporting Carly early on.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 04:39:28 PM by iris lily »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2016, 09:55:45 AM »
As near as I can tell, voting for Trump is the political equivalent of "rolling coal."

 Thanks to you, I just learned something new today!

As for Trump, the most likely reasons I can think of voting for Trump:
  • Anarchy. Some people may prefer that the government not function effectively?
  • Mutual dislike of persons / races / minorities that have been disparaged by Trump.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend?
  • Entertainment value.  Some people are just happy to see a public figure be belligerent and not be politically correct?

EMP

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2016, 10:05:53 AM »
Sorry, baby is making things difficult.

Robotic - if one is merely hitting a list of talking points, I have a hard time I have a hard time believing you are sincere.

Point 2. If you feel like your suffering is caused by the 1%, our corporate overlords, etc and the most important issue is getting $$$ out of politics issuing a gold plated invitation to lobbyists to buy ambassadorships (per ny times, as linked by Robert Reich) is not inspiring confidence.

So if one is a mediocre public speaker and cannot appear emotive and sincere, an objective person should judge the speaker as being insincere? Or in simpler terms one's ability to appear sincere is what determines whether they are sincere? Reminds me of an old Doctor Who quote, but with reverse logic:
Romana: But he had such an HONEST face.
Doctor: Romana, you can't be a successful thief with a DISHONEST face!

On point #2, I'm sorry but that is still a bit incoherent. Trying to match it up with your original point, you seem to be saying that Clinton will give special access to moneyed interest. That IS a fairly predictable outcome, considering that seems to happen in every single presidential administration. Even Obama (whom you seem to think adhered to a higher standard) did that to one degree or another. I'm not sure why Hillary Clinton in particular deserves to be called out for that. To put it another way, we know that sort of thing happened with Bill Clinton's administration and I'm sure a good many folks would reelect him in a heartbeat.

Baby's still sick and I'm running on about 30 hrs sleep for the week, so I will probably bow out after this.

I'm not sure if Drumpf is an evil genius or if he's an idiot savant whose only skill is media manipulation. HRC has proven herself to be a corrupt, corporatist hawk.

If HRC wins and gives us more uninspiring Dem leadership (I think Obama really dropped the ball when he dismantled his grassroots, so I think he's a great centrist Republican president.) that paves the way for a real threat a la Ted Cruz. Cruz is much scarier to me b/c he's intelligent, experienced and he believes the shit he says.

I'm not sold on HRC's progressive credentials, since Bill and her have done more to bring the party right than anyone else.

Sorry if this is more train of thought than actual argument. Having trouble braining with the lack of sleep.

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2016, 12:25:05 PM »
Sorry, baby is making things difficult.

Robotic - if one is merely hitting a list of talking points, I have a hard time I have a hard time believing you are sincere.

Point 2. If you feel like your suffering is caused by the 1%, our corporate overlords, etc and the most important issue is getting $$$ out of politics issuing a gold plated invitation to lobbyists to buy ambassadorships (per ny times, as linked by Robert Reich) is not inspiring confidence.

So if one is a mediocre public speaker and cannot appear emotive and sincere, an objective person should judge the speaker as being insincere? Or in simpler terms one's ability to appear sincere is what determines whether they are sincere? Reminds me of an old Doctor Who quote, but with reverse logic:
Romana: But he had such an HONEST face.
Doctor: Romana, you can't be a successful thief with a DISHONEST face!

On point #2, I'm sorry but that is still a bit incoherent. Trying to match it up with your original point, you seem to be saying that Clinton will give special access to moneyed interest. That IS a fairly predictable outcome, considering that seems to happen in every single presidential administration. Even Obama (whom you seem to think adhered to a higher standard) did that to one degree or another. I'm not sure why Hillary Clinton in particular deserves to be called out for that. To put it another way, we know that sort of thing happened with Bill Clinton's administration and I'm sure a good many folks would reelect him in a heartbeat.

Baby's still sick and I'm running on about 30 hrs sleep for the week, so I will probably bow out after this.

I'm not sure if Drumpf is an evil genius or if he's an idiot savant whose only skill is media manipulation. HRC has proven herself to be a corrupt, corporatist hawk.

If HRC wins and gives us more uninspiring Dem leadership (I think Obama really dropped the ball when he dismantled his grassroots, so I think he's a great centrist Republican president.) that paves the way for a real threat a la Ted Cruz. Cruz is much scarier to me b/c he's intelligent, experienced and he believes the shit he says.

I'm not sold on HRC's progressive credentials, since Bill and her have done more to bring the party right than anyone else.

Sorry if this is more train of thought than actual argument. Having trouble braining with the lack of sleep.

No prob. Thanks for humoring me despite more urgent distractions. :)

chad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2016, 12:28:03 PM »
Quote
But the only thing the President can do independently of congress is to start a war isn't it?

The president is constrained by congress in two ways: they can vote to turn off the funds, or they can vote to remove him from office. The court, on the other hand, constrains him by declaring his actions illegal.

There are two important points here.

1. Both congress and the court use words to exercise checks on the executive. They must then depends on various parts of the executive branch (the treasury, the armed forces, etc) to respect their authority. But a clever authoritarian will be sure that the executive branch is packed with his loyalists from very early on.

2. It seems to me unlikely that a Republican congress will be inclined to take these sorts of actions against Trump in any case, even if he were to defy a court ruling.

I'm not very optimistic about the future if Trump wins. Clinton is hardly better, but perhaps a little.

dramaman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2016, 12:31:56 PM »
Quote
But the only thing the President can do independently of congress is to start a war isn't it?

The president is constrained by congress in two ways: they can vote to turn off the funds, or they can vote to remove him from office. The court, on the other hand, constrains him by declaring his actions illegal.

There are two important points here.

1. Both congress and the court use words to exercise checks on the executive. They must then depends on various parts of the executive branch (the treasury, the armed forces, etc) to respect their authority. But a clever authoritarian will be sure that the executive branch is packed with his loyalists from very early on.

2. It seems to me unlikely that a Republican congress will be inclined to take these sorts of actions against Trump in any case, even if he were to defy a court ruling.

I'm not very optimistic about the future if Trump wins. Clinton is hardly better, but perhaps a little.

Don't forget the Trump will have the ENTIRE executive branch at his disposal. Think of Nixon, but with fewer scruples.

chad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2016, 12:34:18 PM »
Exactly. People take for granted that there's some sort of congressional authority to remove the president. But all they can do is tell him to be removed. They don't have any guns!

forummm

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2016, 12:45:32 PM »
Exactly. People take for granted that there's some sort of congressional authority to remove the president. But all they can do is tell him to be removed. They don't have any guns!

Or we'd be left with President Pence. Which would still suck.

redbirdfan

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2016, 05:45:54 PM »
From talking to Trump supporters, these things are what I hear most often:

1. Extreme dislike of HRC
2. Strong belief (usually religious in nature) that Supreme Court nominations are too important not to overlook personal dislike of Trump
3. General fatigue of same party being in charge ("they've had 8 years and nothing has changed")
4. Curiosity as to what a Trump presidency would look like coupled with some expression that it couldn't be worse than the status quo.
5. Negative thoughts about either women/Muslims/minorities/illegal immigration
6. Belief that Trump is a businessman and American needs a businessman
7. Extreme follower of conspiracy theories in general and those pertaining to Obama and Clinton in particular
8. Upset that the democrats have moved too far to the left
9. Anarchists who usually don't vote but will vote for Trump (sort of a "burn it down" preference)




Rocket

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2016, 06:34:40 PM »
I read about Trump supporters but haven't met one in the flesh to ask.  No one is admitting to it anyways. Maybe its because I'm in CA.  No Trump lawn signs either.  What I witnessed on the web or news is usually that Hilary is somehow worse.  They hate her with a very pure hate.  Trump will somehow create jobs for middle class whites (amusing).  Irrational fear of illegal immigrants, Muslims and terrorists.  Economy is somehow worse now than 8 years ago (no facts to back up).  Crime is now rampant (no facts to back up) but its a feeling.  A lot of other crazy reasons.  Trump is a disaster of a person, and its time for people to repudiate him.  He's too close to the presidency and I'm pissed at republicans for allowing this to happen.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:02:07 PM by Rocket »

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2016, 07:39:23 PM »
...
In regards to your specific points, this is how I interpret them. This is not meant to be confrontational, just a peek into my mind specifically when people raise these points:
,,,
ADBG, thanks for taking the time to go through these.  Good analysis and response.

libertarian4321

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2016, 11:18:38 PM »
I suspect that many of his supporters are voting for him only because warmongering corporatist Hillary Clinton is also a horrific candidate. 

They see Trump as the "lesser evil."

Though I'm not voting for crazy Trump or corrupt Hillary.

I'm not going to waste my vote on the "lesser evil," because that is still supporting evil.

I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Leisured

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2016, 11:20:33 PM »
Thank you clarkevii for the reference to the Archdruid’s Report. If Trump becomes President and re industrialises America, companies will install a lot of automation and will not re employ large numbers of blue collar workers.

Australia lost a lot of industrial jobs from globalisation, but I have not seen the ‘anger’ that apparently is widespread among blue collar workers in America. I suspect that we in Australia have a more generous social safety net than In America, and this safety net allows the unemployed to live a modest way of life.

Blue collar workers do not save or invest, so are eligible for the full Commonwealth age pension of A$30k for a couple at age 65. Disability support is also available, and I know a few men in their fifties who collect a disability pension. I do not know how much the pension is if the wife works, which is often the case. I suspect – but cannot prove – that the Commonwealth (Federal) welfare system uses the disability pension to act as a bridge for older workers until they reach retirement Age.

But there is more.  We have a universal Government health scheme, so medical, hospital and pharmaceutical costs are little or nothing. In my observation, blue collar workers are moderately happy with the welfare safety net. The safety net and universal health care remove many worries from life.
 

Leisured

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2016, 11:24:27 PM »
As near as I can tell, voting for Trump is the political equivalent of "rolling coal."

 Thanks to you, I just learned something new today!


+1

Abe

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2016, 11:25:17 PM »
That's an interesting take. As a naturalized brown skinned Asian, I'd be afraid in getting swept up in the Trump pogrom, because mass forced transfers of millions of people never sweep up anyone other than the intended group, and the people executing such programs are always careful to follow strict rules on whom shouldn't be deported, no matter how much they "look" like they should be. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Trump's executive experience will result in the "best" run mass deportation ever.  This election is a theater of the absurd and Trump is our gracious host. Vote Johnson!!