Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 563234 times)

markbike528CBX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7300 on: January 24, 2021, 12:50:28 PM »
As I've said to my Republican congressman (one of the 10), the sooner the Republicans ditch tRump, the better for the Republican Party, let alone the United States of America.
Quote
......If all you care about is the Republican Party , or if you care at all for the Republican Party, then you will take the opportunity to remove the cancer of Trump-ism from the Republican Party, by affirming measures to censure and remove Donald Trump from any public office or position of influence.......

I suspect shutting this thread down will be premature until he finally dies.
I'm holding out for when his grandiose mausoleum crumbles to dust.  Then it will be "safe" to  shut down this thread.  So sad..... :-)


OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7301 on: January 24, 2021, 12:57:08 PM »
Oh boy. 'Gondor has no king’: pro-Trump lawsuit cites Lord of the Rings (The Guardian)

Quote
"Gondor has no king,” the lawsuit states, a footnote providing an explanation of the woeful fate of Tolkien’s entirely imaginary land populated by dragons, wizards, hobbits and elves, all threatened by a baleful Dark Lord backed up by an army of orcs and with famously little time for due democratic process.

The suit explains how Gondor’s throne was empty and its rightful kings in exile, presumably positing the idea that Trump is the true king of America – a land happily monarch-free since 1776.

“This analogy is applicable since there is now in Washington DC a group of individuals calling themselves the president, vice-president and Congress who have no rightful claim to govern the American people,” the case states.

It adds: “Since only the rightful king could sit on the throne of Gondor, a steward was appointed to manage Gondor until the return of the King, known as ‘Aragorn’, occurred at the end of the story.”

The lawsuit then suggests that America’s version of the stewards of Gondor should be selected from among – surprise, surprise – Trump’s cabinet members, who should run the country.

I cannot wait to see what a judge does with this.

sui generis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7302 on: January 24, 2021, 12:58:33 PM »
Maybe shutting down this thread is premature. Looked like he was up for using the DOJ to throw out election results.

https://www.wral.com/trump-and-justice-department-lawyer-said-to-have-plotted-to-oust-acting-attorney-general/19486725/

I suspect shutting this thread down will be premature until he finally dies.

And even then, we might just repurpose it for the next outrageous Trump.  What with Lara planning to run for Senate in NC and the competing horrors of Don Jr. and Eric, I'm afraid we may have more Trump outrages for generations to come!

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7303 on: January 24, 2021, 01:10:17 PM »
Oh boy. 'Gondor has no king’: pro-Trump lawsuit cites Lord of the Rings (The Guardian)

Quote
"Gondor has no king,” the lawsuit states, a footnote providing an explanation of the woeful fate of Tolkien’s entirely imaginary land populated by dragons, wizards, hobbits and elves, all threatened by a baleful Dark Lord backed up by an army of orcs and with famously little time for due democratic process.

The suit explains how Gondor’s throne was empty and its rightful kings in exile, presumably positing the idea that Trump is the true king of America – a land happily monarch-free since 1776.

“This analogy is applicable since there is now in Washington DC a group of individuals calling themselves the president, vice-president and Congress who have no rightful claim to govern the American people,” the case states.

It adds: “Since only the rightful king could sit on the throne of Gondor, a steward was appointed to manage Gondor until the return of the King, known as ‘Aragorn’, occurred at the end of the story.”

The lawsuit then suggests that America’s version of the stewards of Gondor should be selected from among – surprise, surprise – Trump’s cabinet members, who should run the country.

I cannot wait to see what a judge does with this.

Can the judge refer the filers for mental care?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7304 on: January 24, 2021, 01:12:44 PM »
Maybe shutting down this thread is premature. Looked like he was up for using the DOJ to throw out election results.

https://www.wral.com/trump-and-justice-department-lawyer-said-to-have-plotted-to-oust-acting-attorney-general/19486725/

I suspect shutting this thread down will be premature until he finally dies.

And even then, we might just repurpose it for the next outrageous Trump.  What with Lara planning to run for Senate in NC and the competing horrors of Don Jr. and Eric, I'm afraid we may have more Trump outrages for generations to come!

Fred trump created Donald, both nurture and nature. He in turn has given us Don Junior, Eric, etc.
Raising kids with privilege and no moral standing doesn’t bode well society.

Anyone remember the last debate between Hillary Clinton and trump, where each was asked to say one nice thing about the other, and Hillary cites his children were wonderful people? Seems that was premature...

markbike528CBX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7305 on: January 24, 2021, 01:18:55 PM »
Maybe shutting down this thread is premature. Looked like he was up for using the DOJ to throw out election results.

https://www.wral.com/trump-and-justice-department-lawyer-said-to-have-plotted-to-oust-acting-attorney-general/19486725/

I suspect shutting this thread down will be premature until he finally dies.

And even then, we might just repurpose it for the next outrageous Trump.  What with Lara planning to run for Senate in NC and the competing horrors of Don Jr. and Eric, I'm afraid we may have more Trump outrages for generations to come!
Don't forget Barron  2041   (ducks and rolls, flame suit on)   I actually feel sorry for the kid (now, before possible outrages), how would YOU like to be the child of The Donald?

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7306 on: January 24, 2021, 01:46:02 PM »
I'm confused. Is he threatening to create his own party if they convict him and prevent him from holding office? Is he just doing it for spite? If they don't convict him he's just going to run again as republican? He's already proven he can't win an election though, even with the full backing of the GOP. 

Sounds like a lose lose situation for the GOP.  Sweet karma.

He’s threatening to start his own party specifically to challenge any GOP legislator who votes for impeachment in the primaries.  It’s a political threat - vote against me and I will ensure you lose your next primary.

It seems he wants to play the role of spoiler even more than he wants to be a ‘kingmaker’.  It’s becoming a key part of his defense (i.e. “if you can’t defend your actions, threaten/scare the Jury”).  Why he is so worried about losing when he’s no longer in office is the interesting question - some think it’s so that he can run again in 2024.  I personally think it has more to do with not losing the $215k guaranteed Presidential stipend plus the additional $500k+ he can use for his post-presidential office expenses, which will almost certainly be at one of the Trump Organization properties (thereby giving him perpetual taxpayer income).

I was under the impression that he gets all the perks of being a past president regardless of whether he's convicted.  The statute says he qualifies unless he's removed from office, and he wasn't removed, his term just expired.  Even if convicted now he won't have been removed from office, so he technically qualifies. At least that's how the youtube lawyers presented it.  I don't know if the Senate can specify that the conviction will strip him of those. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7307 on: January 24, 2021, 02:03:37 PM »
Oh boy. 'Gondor has no king’: pro-Trump lawsuit cites Lord of the Rings (The Guardian)

Quote
"Gondor has no king,” the lawsuit states, a footnote providing an explanation of the woeful fate of Tolkien’s entirely imaginary land populated by dragons, wizards, hobbits and elves, all threatened by a baleful Dark Lord backed up by an army of orcs and with famously little time for due democratic process.

The suit explains how Gondor’s throne was empty and its rightful kings in exile, presumably positing the idea that Trump is the true king of America – a land happily monarch-free since 1776.

“This analogy is applicable since there is now in Washington DC a group of individuals calling themselves the president, vice-president and Congress who have no rightful claim to govern the American people,” the case states.

It adds: “Since only the rightful king could sit on the throne of Gondor, a steward was appointed to manage Gondor until the return of the King, known as ‘Aragorn’, occurred at the end of the story.”

The lawsuit then suggests that America’s version of the stewards of Gondor should be selected from among – surprise, surprise – Trump’s cabinet members, who should run the country

I cannot wait to see what a judge does with this.

Via https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/23/donald-trump-lawsuit-lord-of-the-rings-gondor-election

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.1120287/gov.uscourts.txwd.1120287.6.0.pdf   

I have been reading the Congressional Record https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record 
, lately to see what was actually said. So having a actual source is important to me nowadays.

This "suit" is one of the funniest in a very sad way, like seeing Wile E. Coyote and KNOWING what is coming.
Apparently some people [and lawyers] have access to much stronger drugs than the rest of us.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7308 on: January 24, 2021, 06:12:02 PM »
I'm confused. Is he threatening to create his own party if they convict him and prevent him from holding office? Is he just doing it for spite? If they don't convict him he's just going to run again as republican? He's already proven he can't win an election though, even with the full backing of the GOP. 

Sounds like a lose lose situation for the GOP.  Sweet karma.

He’s threatening to start his own party specifically to challenge any GOP legislator who votes for impeachment in the primaries.  It’s a political threat - vote against me and I will ensure you lose your next primary.

It seems he wants to play the role of spoiler even more than he wants to be a ‘kingmaker’.  It’s becoming a key part of his defense (i.e. “if you can’t defend your actions, threaten/scare the Jury”).  Why he is so worried about losing when he’s no longer in office is the interesting question - some think it’s so that he can run again in 2024.  I personally think it has more to do with not losing the $215k guaranteed Presidential stipend plus the additional $500k+ he can use for his post-presidential office expenses, which will almost certainly be at one of the Trump Organization properties (thereby giving him perpetual taxpayer income).

I was under the impression that he gets all the perks of being a past president regardless of whether he's convicted.  The statute says he qualifies unless he's removed from office, and he wasn't removed, his term just expired.  Even if convicted now he won't have been removed from office, so he technically qualifies. At least that's how the youtube lawyers presented it.  I don't know if the Senate can specify that the conviction will strip him of those. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Impeachment strips a president of his pension per my understanding (“...honor, trust. and profit”)

From article I section 3:
...judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7309 on: January 25, 2021, 04:04:34 AM »
Anyone remember the last debate between Hillary Clinton and trump, where each was asked to say one nice thing about the other, and Hillary cites his children were wonderful people? Seems that was premature...
Crooked Hillary. Always lying! Can't trust her!

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7310 on: January 25, 2021, 06:13:52 AM »
I'm confused. Is he threatening to create his own party if they convict him and prevent him from holding office? Is he just doing it for spite? If they don't convict him he's just going to run again as republican? He's already proven he can't win an election though, even with the full backing of the GOP. 

Sounds like a lose lose situation for the GOP.  Sweet karma.

He’s threatening to start his own party specifically to challenge any GOP legislator who votes for impeachment in the primaries.  It’s a political threat - vote against me and I will ensure you lose your next primary.

Apparently Sarah Huckabee Sanders is running for governor of Arkansas based on her loyalty to Trump. 'Cause she did such a great job as press secretary and all. [/s]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/campaign/535632-sarah-huckabee-sanders-announces-gubernatorial-campaign%3famp

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7311 on: January 25, 2021, 07:28:05 AM »
Maybe shutting down this thread is premature. Looked like he was up for using the DOJ to throw out election results.

https://www.wral.com/trump-and-justice-department-lawyer-said-to-have-plotted-to-oust-acting-attorney-general/19486725/

I suspect shutting this thread down will be premature until he finally dies.

And even then, we might just repurpose it for the next outrageous Trump.  What with Lara planning to run for Senate in NC and the competing horrors of Don Jr. and Eric, I'm afraid we may have more Trump outrages for generations to come!

Fred trump created Donald, both nurture and nature. He in turn has given us Don Junior, Eric, etc.
Raising kids with privilege and no moral standing doesn’t bode well society.

Anyone remember the last debate between Hillary Clinton and trump, where each was asked to say one nice thing about the other, and Hillary cites his children were wonderful people? Seems that was premature...

I've long had that final question in mind. Frankly, I think Trump came out the better for it. The debates were awful for him in general, but his response about Sec. Clinton, "She is a fighter who will never quit," was perfect for energizing all the people who were afraid of her to take a chance and vote for him. Essentially, anyone who was certain a President Clinton would annoy zhem was being told that annoyance would be non-stop and relentless.

Her "his kids" response was--frankly--vapid and false. His kids have left no ambiguity with their behavior since then.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 07:29:53 AM by talltexan »

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7312 on: January 25, 2021, 08:12:32 AM »
I'm confused. Is he threatening to create his own party if they convict him and prevent him from holding office? Is he just doing it for spite? If they don't convict him he's just going to run again as republican? He's already proven he can't win an election though, even with the full backing of the GOP. 

Sounds like a lose lose situation for the GOP.  Sweet karma.

He’s threatening to start his own party specifically to challenge any GOP legislator who votes for impeachment in the primaries.  It’s a political threat - vote against me and I will ensure you lose your next primary.

It seems he wants to play the role of spoiler even more than he wants to be a ‘kingmaker’.  It’s becoming a key part of his defense (i.e. “if you can’t defend your actions, threaten/scare the Jury”).  Why he is so worried about losing when he’s no longer in office is the interesting question - some think it’s so that he can run again in 2024.  I personally think it has more to do with not losing the $215k guaranteed Presidential stipend plus the additional $500k+ he can use for his post-presidential office expenses, which will almost certainly be at one of the Trump Organization properties (thereby giving him perpetual taxpayer income).

I was under the impression that he gets all the perks of being a past president regardless of whether he's convicted.  The statute says he qualifies unless he's removed from office, and he wasn't removed, his term just expired.  Even if convicted now he won't have been removed from office, so he technically qualifies. At least that's how the youtube lawyers presented it.  I don't know if the Senate can specify that the conviction will strip him of those. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Impeachment strips a president of his pension per my understanding (“...honor, trust. and profit”)

From article I section 3:
...judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.

I think that applies specifically to holding office.  So they can convict him, and then separately they can vote to not allow him to hold any public office, ie "any office of honor, trust or profit", moving forward.  He still qualifies for his benefits under the former presidents act, even if they convict and vote to prohibit him from serving in an office of honor, an office of trust, or an office of profit. 

I don't think he is going to be convicted though.  Somehow after all of this he still has a stranglehold on a huge portion of the population, and a large amount of the party.  A pathologically lying, dually impeached disgraced fascist that incited a deadly insurrection against his own government, and he is still getting support from people even after he left office.  It's mind blowing. 

seattlecyclone

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7313 on: January 25, 2021, 09:33:34 AM »
I think you could easily argue that "past president" is an office of profit, given all the valuable benefits it entails, and the Senate could specify that he no longer gets those upon conviction. It would then be up to the Supreme Court to decide otherwise.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7314 on: January 25, 2021, 09:40:08 AM »
I think you could easily argue that "past president" is an office of profit, given all the valuable benefits it entails, and the Senate could specify that he no longer gets those upon conviction. It would then be up to the Supreme Court to decide otherwise.

I don't think we can or should take away the protection. It is unfortunate that he will manipulate that to his best advantage, but I do not want a Trump martyr cult starting.

Dicey

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7315 on: January 25, 2021, 09:51:37 AM »
I think you could easily argue that "past president" is an office of profit, given all the valuable benefits it entails, and the Senate could specify that he no longer gets those upon conviction. It would then be up to the Supreme Court to decide otherwise.

I don't think we can or should take away the protection. It is unfortunate that he will manipulate that to his best advantage, but I do not want a Trump martyr cult starting.
I think the protection extended to his adult children bothers me more.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7316 on: January 25, 2021, 09:59:28 AM »
I think the protection extended to his adult children bothers me more.

I believe the Secret Service protection for his adult kids ends in the next 6 months; it doesn't go on indefinitely. While they're certainly going to use it to suck a few more million out of the public's funds by forcing the Secret Service to rent apartments from them or something, that to me is not the end of the world just because of the relatively near end-date.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7317 on: January 25, 2021, 11:22:43 AM »
I think you could easily argue that "past president" is an office of profit, given all the valuable benefits it entails, and the Senate could specify that he no longer gets those upon conviction. It would then be up to the Supreme Court to decide otherwise.

I don't think we can or should take away the protection. It is unfortunate that he will manipulate that to his best advantage, but I do not want a Trump martyr cult starting.

The political ramifications will surely be at the top of every senator's mind when they make their votes in the coming weeks. I don't think it's right to say "the Constitution clearly doesn't allow this" when there's no real precedent for this and it took me about a minute to come up with an argument why it could be just fine. The Senate could certainly go with this argument if they felt it wise. If Trump decided to dispute that, there are nine people who have the power to create binding precedent in the other direction, and none of us know their thoughts on the matter.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7318 on: January 25, 2021, 11:25:08 AM »
I expect a lot of Republicans will not vote to impeach because it will alienate the substantial portion of their base that has bought into Qanon conspiracy theories. Impeaching Trump would be a direct contradiction of that alternate-fact universe. This would be compounded if the elements of the conviction included not just affirmation of removal from office (post-inauguration), but also disqualification from holding office.

Rand Paul's interview with George Stephanopoulous over the weekend in which he *still* refused to acknowledge the results of the election are a canary in the mineshaft. To his credit, GS responded that there were not two sides to the the issue, as evidenced by the multitude of cases and DOJ findings that the election fraud accusations were baseless.

That literally millions of Americans have gone down the rabbit hole of disinformation to the extent that they are twisting all new information to fit the narrative is deeply problematic because: 1) a major political party is in a position (in part through catering to it) that they have a serious potential to splinter if they dispute what are objectively conspiracy theories, and 2) enough Americans bought into it that it is radicalizing a critical mass to conduct violence against the government (see the Capitol riots). That the Qanon and related/overlapping conspiracies are forming alignment between disparate groups like anti-vaxxers, white supremacists, right-wing militias, and theocrats is very problematic because they are aligned against the foundations of our democracy. This is, quite frankly, the Achilles heel of the first amendment. I am an ardent believer in freedom of speech, but the outcome where people detach from reality is difficult to counter. I do not know how to address it.
I recently listened to a very interviewing interview with a researcher in disinformation on the Lawfare podcast. For those that like podcasts, it is worth a listen.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-information-disorder-during-and-after-trump-presidency

Fishindude

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7319 on: January 25, 2021, 01:41:26 PM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.
 



GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7320 on: January 25, 2021, 01:48:02 PM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.

And none of it undeserved.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7321 on: January 25, 2021, 01:50:01 PM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.
Seems like we have been dropping the ball and not keeping up.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-fact-checker-tracked-trump-claims/2021/01/23/ad04b69a-5c1d-11eb-a976-bad6431e03e2_story.html
Quote
The final tally of Trump’s presidency: 30,573 false or misleading claims — with nearly half coming in his final year.
[/i]

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7322 on: January 25, 2021, 03:40:54 PM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.

And none of it undeserved.

Yeah, as an American voter, I really don't appreciate 1) attempts to overturn a valid election because of sour grapes or 2) attempted violent sedition.

Psychstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7323 on: January 25, 2021, 04:09:21 PM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.

And none of it undeserved.

Yeah, as an American voter, I really don't appreciate 1) attempts to overturn a valid election because of sour grapes or 2) attempted violent sedition.

But her emails!?!?!?

/S

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7324 on: January 26, 2021, 06:28:04 AM »
7,300+ posts and 15 months of Trump hate in this thread.

@Fishindude , I will own that I spent years trying to understand Trump, trying to train myself to see the other side. Every time he appointed an obviously unqualified cabinet secretary like Rick Perry (who was my governor) or Betsy DeVos, I reminded myself "He has that power." I listened to more Scott Adams than anyone else around me, and put on Limbaugh if luck should have me in the car over my lunch hour. Even as I grieved for the death of facts and the obvious hypocrisy of the people sitting all around me in church, I realized that we were destined to live in a fractured world in which reality could be totally different for just enough people to keep Trump in power.

COVID changed all that. I realize it hasn't for many people, but this virus took a course that--on balance--seemed entirely predictable given Trump's apparent personality and skillset.

People ask me how I think the virus would have gone if Trump had lost that election in 2016. I think President Tim Kaine would have done a remarkable job of following the pandemic playbook left behind by our 43rd and 44th Presidents.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7325 on: January 26, 2021, 06:45:04 AM »

People ask me how I think the virus would have gone if Trump had lost that election in 2016. I think President Tim Kaine would have done a remarkable job of following the pandemic playbook left behind by our 43rd and 44th Presidents.

President Kaine.  Huh. 
I think we've been too easy on ourselves, and don't compare our outcomes to other nations whenever the outcome is unflattering to the US.  Healthcare in general is a good example (total cost, overall outcomes, bankruptcies resulting from, etc.)

We are neck-in-neck with India for total number of Covid deaths, a country that has almost 4x as many people.  Factoring in population (i.e. deaths-per-capita) we are neck-and-neck with the UK and way behind China, India, Indonesia and Pakistan (the four other most populous nations).  Compare us with the EU and the US would be 25th out of 28 countries, despite our vast economic resources and our ability to control our borders from Europe.

We have, in a nutshell, had one of the absolute worst outcomes from Covid in the world.  No aspect of our country can account for it - not population, not population density, not ease of entry.  We cannot escape the conclusion that we failed in the first 12 months, and half a million American citizens will die because of it. 

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7326 on: January 26, 2021, 08:14:37 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7327 on: January 26, 2021, 08:26:44 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

Yeah, but it's half a million old people.  Nobody gives a shit about old people.  If it was half a million people aged 20 - 40 we would be seeing quite a different response.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7328 on: January 26, 2021, 09:02:51 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

Yeah, but it's half a million old people.  Nobody gives a shit about old people.  If it was half a million people aged 20 - 40 we would be seeing quite a different response.

And they are old people in nursing homes and seniors' residences, so really out of sight and out of mind.   Grrrr.

And since B119 is here, vaccinate the truckers driving between Canada and the US ASAP.

ETA wrong name, B117 strain.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:29:00 AM by RetiredAt63 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7329 on: January 26, 2021, 09:18:08 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

Yeah, but it's half a million old people.  Nobody gives a shit about old people.  If it was half a million people aged 20 - 40 we would be seeing quite a different response.

And they are old people in nursing homes and seniors' residences, so really out of sight and out of mind.   Grrrr.

And since B119 is here, vaccinate the truckers driving between Canada and the US ASAP.

FFS . . . Canada never cancelled plane trips to the rest of the world.  Not once.  Just sternly suggested that people shouldn't travel.  So we have had a constant influx of disease vectors who fucked off for a vacation.

Cancelling pleasure travel to other countries is a no brainer for this kind of thing.  It's phenomenally stupid that we didn't bother doing this - and indicative of how little we care about the people who die.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7330 on: January 26, 2021, 09:41:06 AM »
@talltexan , thanks for being interested in understanding multiple points of view. I have also made a point of taking time to go to outlets and corners of the internet that are afield of what I agree with from FoxNews (a tame version these days) to Breitbart, etc. I even spent some time reading articles on the OathKeepers webpage and the associated comments. Living in a West Coast bubble where I work with highly educated people, it is a very good reference point and grounding. What has most disturbing about it is the separation from objective reality. I am fine with people having different views on tax issues, on moral issues such as abortion, on immigration policy, on economic ways to address climate change, etc. But it is a whole thing altogether when objective reality is thrown away in support of a preferred narrative. I think the covid response is just a particularly apparent version of the expression of this. The concept of a policy debate or exchange of ideas, which is fundamental to the concept of a functioning and informed democracy, is simply not part of the public sphere without objective reality being a part of the ground rules.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7331 on: January 26, 2021, 09:43:07 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

Yeah, but it's half a million old people.  Nobody gives a shit about old people.  If it was half a million people aged 20 - 40 we would be seeing quite a different response.

And they are old people in nursing homes and seniors' residences, so really out of sight and out of mind.   Grrrr.

And since B119 is here, vaccinate the truckers driving between Canada and the US ASAP.

FFS . . . Canada never cancelled plane trips to the rest of the world.  Not once.  Just sternly suggested that people shouldn't travel.  So we have had a constant influx of disease vectors who fucked off for a vacation.

Cancelling pleasure travel to other countries is a no brainer for this kind of thing.  It's phenomenally stupid that we didn't bother doing this - and indicative of how little we care about the people who die.

I know.  I just didn't mention it because this is the T**** outrage of the day thread.

Rant:
There are days I wish I had retired to Nova Scotia instead of Ottawa.  All our Conservative Premiers are competing for the worst handling of the pandemic award.  Feds have enough vaccine ordered to vaccinate us all 3 times over, but we have to get the Phizer vaccine from Belgium because T**** wouldn't let the US manufacturer sell to us, and now that plant is closed for upgrades.  I think Trudeau has asked Biden for some from the US but they may just be rumour.  It would definitely improve Canada/US relations if Biden did.  Moderna is coming in small quantities.  Given the easier storage I don't know why we have more orders from Phizer than from Moderna.  We are waiting for FDA approval of  the Oxford Astra-Zeneca vaccine when it has already been approved by the UK and the EU.   

And we trust arrivals to self-quarantine.  Australia and New Zealand have mandatory hotel quarantine and it works.  At this point it is obvious the honour system isn't enough.

At least Quebec and Ontario are fining large gatherings.

Rant over.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7332 on: January 26, 2021, 09:46:33 AM »
The news this morning pointed out that we've had more COVID deaths now than Americans killed in WWII. Then they proceeded to talk about the ways you can't compare WWII deaths to COVID deaths which left me irritated. Regardless of how we want to split those hairs - it is lives lost and lives wasted.

Well, no, you can't directly compare them. Those deaths were caused by enemy soldiers who directly intended to kill US troops, and occurred over a period of nearly 4 years and more than 75 years ago (when both military and medical knowledge and technology were sufficiently less advanced).

We're up to 421,670 COVID-19 deaths in the US since records were first kept 11 months ago (or 141 9/11 death toll-equivalents, for further perspective).

Edit because the COVID-19 death toll (as per the Johns Hopkins tracker) has increased by 220 in the 5 minutes since posting.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:51:42 AM by OtherJen »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7333 on: January 26, 2021, 09:58:51 AM »
I guess a comparison of COVID health crisis and WWII would have to include a discussion about the policy/nation-building goals. Was the US ultimately secured by following the path that included those 400,000 deaths? American desperately tried to stay out of the war until our own soil was attacked at Pearl Harbor.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7334 on: January 28, 2021, 11:22:20 AM »
I guess a comparison of COVID health crisis and WWII would have to include a discussion about the policy/nation-building goals. Was the US ultimately secured by following the path that included those 400,000 deaths? American desperately tried to stay out of the war until our own soil was attacked at Pearl Harbor.

Hmmm. I don't know if I would say that, but that's probably for another thread.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 11:27:44 AM by Fireball »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7335 on: January 29, 2021, 03:46:12 AM »
I guess a comparison of COVID health crisis and WWII would have to include a discussion about the policy/nation-building goals. Was the US ultimately secured by following the path that included those 400,000 deaths? American desperately tried to stay out of the war until our own soil was attacked at Pearl Harbor.

Hmmm. I don't know if I would say that, but that's probably for another thread.
Because of the "own soil" naming of violently occupied territory?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7336 on: January 29, 2021, 08:35:10 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7337 on: January 29, 2021, 08:45:49 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

Having lived in Hawai'i and learned something of its pre-statehood history, I'm a bit confused here ("violently occupied territory" a la LennStar)
By popular accounts, the presence of the US naval base (Pearl Harbor) was generally welcomed by the nation of Hawai'i, and they were actively (i.e. politically) enguaged in moving towards joining the US even before the attack in 1941. Of course not everyone agreed at the time, but overall it was seen as mutually beneficial at the time. Hawai'ii even designed its flag as a political gesture to both the US and Great Brittan.  The monarchy saw close alliance, if not outright joining these western powers as essential for the prosperity of Hawai'i in the 20th century.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7338 on: January 29, 2021, 08:47:33 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

I assumed the comment was going the other way, rejecting the notion that the US "desperately tried to stay out of the war" until Pearl Harbor. The US military was attacked several times, and did its own attacking several times, before Pearl Harbor. Not to mention the supplies that we were sending to the Allies. The US definitively had a side before Pearl Harbor, we were definitely supporting the Allies and trying to sabotage the Axis, that was just the trigger that made us drop all pretenses and engage in an all-out hot war.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7339 on: January 29, 2021, 08:52:33 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

I assumed the comment was going the other way, rejecting the notion that the US "desperately tried to stay out of the war" until Pearl Harbor. The US military was attacked several times, and did its own attacking several times, before Pearl Harbor. Not to mention the supplies that we were sending to the Allies. The US definitively had a side before Pearl Harbor, we were definitely supporting the Allies and trying to sabotage the Axis, that was just the trigger that made us drop all pretenses and engage in an all-out hot war.

Combining the actual timelines mentioned here, it has been argued that the US was desperately trying to join the war, but public sentiment required it's "Remember the Maine" moment.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7340 on: January 29, 2021, 08:55:15 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

I assumed the comment was going the other way, rejecting the notion that the US "desperately tried to stay out of the war" until Pearl Harbor. The US military was attacked several times, and did its own attacking several times, before Pearl Harbor. Not to mention the supplies that we were sending to the Allies. The US definitively had a side before Pearl Harbor, we were definitely supporting the Allies and trying to sabotage the Axis, that was just the trigger that made us drop all pretenses and engage in an all-out hot war.

No arguments there, though public sentiment WAS decidedly against openly joining the war up until Pearl Harbor.  We were actively supplying the allies with weapons and equipment as early as 1936. By 1939 we were ramping up production of everything from tanks to rifles

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7341 on: January 29, 2021, 09:01:32 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

I assumed the comment was going the other way, rejecting the notion that the US "desperately tried to stay out of the war" until Pearl Harbor. The US military was attacked several times, and did its own attacking several times, before Pearl Harbor. Not to mention the supplies that we were sending to the Allies. The US definitively had a side before Pearl Harbor, we were definitely supporting the Allies and trying to sabotage the Axis, that was just the trigger that made us drop all pretenses and engage in an all-out hot war.

Combining the actual timelines mentioned here, it has been argued that the US was desperately trying to join the war, but public sentiment required it's "Remember the Maine" moment.

Yeah.  The US had been supporting China's military through supplies, cash, and mercenaries prior to Pearl Harbour and Roosevelt was desperately trying to get the US into the war.  The whole reason the US military was in Hawaii to begin with was in the hopes of provoking the Japanese into military action.

FWIW - this was an instance where I think there was pretty clear cut reason to go to war.  Imperial Japan was aggressive, and perpetrated some pretty horrific crimes.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7342 on: January 29, 2021, 09:08:14 AM »
FWIW - this was an instance where I think there was pretty clear cut reason to go to war.  Imperial Japan was aggressive, and perpetrated some pretty horrific crimes.

Oh I don't think anyone's arguing with you. The Axis are some of the most unambiguous "bad guys" in modern history, and that's only slightly colored by the victors writing the history books. If there's ever any reason to go to war, it's to fight people like that.

But it's also not true that the US was "neutral" before Pearl Harbor (which I know is not what texan said). We had a side, we were supporting our side, and Japan felt like they had to stop us from supporting their enemies if they were going to have any chance of winning. That much is pretty factual, how dastardly the attack on Pearl Harbor was and how much we "desperately tried to stay out of the war" before that is more a matter of opinion.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7343 on: January 29, 2021, 09:10:43 AM »
I'll own that using "own soil" to describe Hawai'i elides the circumstances under which the US gained control over the island chain.

If someone has reason to disbelieve that--in the domestic politics of 1941--US public sentiment towards sending troops and ships into combat changed because of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I'll listen.

I assumed the comment was going the other way, rejecting the notion that the US "desperately tried to stay out of the war" until Pearl Harbor. The US military was attacked several times, and did its own attacking several times, before Pearl Harbor. Not to mention the supplies that we were sending to the Allies. The US definitively had a side before Pearl Harbor, we were definitely supporting the Allies and trying to sabotage the Axis, that was just the trigger that made us drop all pretenses and engage in an all-out hot war.

Thanks for this list. There is no excused for me not acknowledging the Reuben James as I've been listening to the Kingston Trio song about it for decades.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7344 on: January 29, 2021, 09:16:30 AM »

FWIW - this was an instance where I think there was pretty clear cut reason to go to war.  Imperial Japan was aggressive, and perpetrated some pretty horrific crimes.

Speaking of which, I've been reading a book on 'Unit 731' -- something I knew absolutely nothing about until very recently. 

In a nutshell, Unit 731 was a ghastly testing ground for the Japanese Imperial military for designing and learning about the effects of chemical, biological and conventional weapons. They used living prisoners to test all sorts of lethal and sub-lethal devices, like spraying them with plague or tying them up in rows and detonating a bomb to see how lethal its range was.  Almost any conceivable military weapon at the time was tested on live subjects.

By some accounts, more than 250,000 were killed in experiments at Unit 731.  Some 4,000 Japanese worked at unit 731, but it remained a close secret until the 1980s.  After the war it's chief commander, Shirō Ishii, was allowed to retire to a quiet civilian life - he and almost all the other officers involved never went in front of war crime tribunals as the Nazis who ran the concentration/death camps did. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7345 on: January 29, 2021, 09:26:10 AM »

FWIW - this was an instance where I think there was pretty clear cut reason to go to war.  Imperial Japan was aggressive, and perpetrated some pretty horrific crimes.

Speaking of which, I've been reading a book on 'Unit 731' -- something I knew absolutely nothing about until very recently. 

In a nutshell, Unit 731 was a ghastly testing ground for the Japanese Imperial military for designing and learning about the effects of chemical, biological and conventional weapons. They used living prisoners to test all sorts of lethal and sub-lethal devices, like spraying them with plague or tying them up in rows and detonating a bomb to see how lethal its range was.  Almost any conceivable military weapon at the time was tested on live subjects.

By some accounts, more than 250,000 were killed in experiments at Unit 731.  Some 4,000 Japanese worked at unit 731, but it remained a close secret until the 1980s.  After the war it's chief commander, Shirō Ishii, was allowed to retire to a quiet civilian life - he and almost all the other officers involved never went in front of war crime tribunals as the Nazis who ran the concentration/death camps did.

Yep.  Including infecting people with disease to see how long it took for them to die, freezing people to death, and all manner of terrible shit.  Imperial Japan had this pseudo religious undertone to everything they did that was used as justification of some really terrible things.  I get the historical roots of why it happened . . . but there was some evil cultural shit going on.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7347 on: January 29, 2021, 11:03:29 AM »


Speaking of which, I've been reading a book on 'Unit 731' -- something I knew absolutely nothing about until very recently. 

In a nutshell, Unit 731 was a ghastly testing ground for the Japanese Imperial military for designing and learning about the effects of chemical, biological and conventional weapons. They used living prisoners to test all sorts of lethal and sub-lethal devices, like spraying them with plague or tying them up in rows and detonating a bomb to see how lethal its range was.  Almost any conceivable military weapon at the time was tested on live subjects.

By some accounts, more than 250,000 were killed in experiments at Unit 731.  Some 4,000 Japanese worked at unit 731, but it remained a close secret until the 1980s.  After the war it's chief commander, Shirō Ishii, was allowed to retire to a quiet civilian life - he and almost all the other officers involved never went in front of war crime tribunals as the Nazis who ran the concentration/death camps did.

Japanese soldiers also perpetrated the grisly Nanjing Massacre which included evil so bestial that it shocked some of the Nazis who lived there. I was told that soldiers murdered Chinese babies by tossing them up in the air and catching them on bayonets.

Wikipedia

“…Nanking should be remembered not only for the number of people slaughtered but for the cruel manner in which many met their deaths.

Chinese men were used for bayonet practice and in decapitation contests.

An estimated 20,000 – 80,000 Chinese women were raped.

Many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, and nail them alive to walls.

Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons their mothers, as other family members watched.

Not only did live burials, castration, the carving of organs, and the roasting of people become routine, but more diabolical tortures were practiced, such as hanging people by their tongues on iron hooks or burying people to their waists and watching them get torn apart by German shepherds.

So sickening was the spectacle that even Nazis in the city were horrified, one proclaiming the massacre to be the work of bestial machinery.”
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 11:08:36 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7348 on: January 29, 2021, 12:15:12 PM »
Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons their mothers, as other family members watched.

Echoes of the innocent men in US military custody who were forced to rape other male prisoners for the pleasure of their American captors in Abu Ghraib.


It's important not to get too comfortable and to remember that no person is very far away from atrocity . . . usually it's just our laws and leadership that prevent it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7349 on: January 29, 2021, 12:28:12 PM »
 All good reasons to enforce the law on participants in recent events. We don't want anyone in power to get too comfortable calling for violence and not get prosecuted. A decade or so of unlimited rhetoric like we have recently witnessed might lead to some seriously bad outcomes. We wind up with someone truly unhinged who wants to nuke an international neighbor or invade Mexico or something similar.

A situation where words and actions derail a society going along just fine before.