Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 193009 times)

talltexan

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Trump outrage of the day
« on: October 30, 2019, 08:21:16 AM »
I really cannot even describe what it was like to live through Thursday, Oct. 17. But it's now been almost two weeks, and we're accumulating a fresh set of missteps from our overmatched Commander-and-Chief.

A little about me: I'm a registered Republican who voted in the 2016 primary, but saw immediately that Trump would be a bad President. I didn't think the modest progress on conservative causes would justify the corrosion of our discourse and foreign policy and brazen corruption that Trump and his immediate appointees would perpetrate in the open.

I'm starting this new thread to be a landing point for people who want to say they were right about Trump all along. Beginning with the odd maneuvers of US troops to secure Kurdish oil fields: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQxsTslcTlAhWyiOAKHVv2A38QFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2019%2F10%2Ftrump-syria-oil-war-crime.html&usg=AOvVaw1AJmpkSYr1gLcTUUcUQHjt

It's possible you're reading this and think I've sized him up too incharitably; you're welcome here, too.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 09:00:34 AM »
I’m a solid independent who votes both sides. Also a military spouse who shuddered to think he would be my husband’s boss. Still try not to think too hard on that. I predicted he’d be terrible for foreign policy/ relations with our allies, which is the core reason I did not vote for him. Totally right about that one. Did not foresee the betrayal of the Kurds, but not surprised either. We can’t get rid of him fast enough.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 09:52:54 AM »
Trump is just about exactly as bad as I thought he would be. It just seemed so obvious. He is a cancer on our country, and on the world at large.

I still can't believe any thinking person voted for him.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 10:55:48 AM »
I really didn't want to be right, but he and his administration have been exactly as bad as I predicted they would be back in late 2015 when he started railing about Mexicans during his campaign. I mean, c'mon, we've been hearing about his business and personal disasters since I was a kid, and I'm in my 40s. At best, he's a dishonest, disloyal reality show huckster. He's a disgrace to the office and our Constitution.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 04:31:24 PM »
^
^

What they said (Kris and OtherJen)

rab-bit

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 04:37:57 PM »
Trump is just about exactly as bad as I thought he would be. It just seemed so obvious. He is a cancer on our country, and on the world at large.

I still can't believe any thinking person voted for him.

Isn't it amazing that what seems so obvious to you and me is not all all obvious to so many other people? That's the part that I am still struggling to understand.

bluebelle

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2019, 04:48:50 PM »
he is so far beyond worse than I thought he'd be, and I thought he'd be really bad

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2019, 05:15:00 PM »
I figured there would have been more sex related scandals, given his history of assault and infidelity.  Other than that though, it's been going pretty much as expected.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2019, 05:20:28 PM »
Much of my family lived in NYC during the 80s and 90s.  I remember my mother getting mad at my aunt when I asked her what a ‘blowhard’ was (something she had called Trump and 5 year old me had overheard). 

For decades Trump told anyone who would listen that he could solve whatever problem was being irrespective of his personal experience. He race-baited and scapegoated and blamed every failure on someone else, and claimed success in things which he had little to do with. He boasted about building skyscrapers when in reality he just changed the facade, then lied about how big they were. He made a habit of working with corrupt figures, of threatening litigation to any perceived enemy and of underpaying his subcontractors. 

He actively tried to keep himself in the spotlight for decades, often using theatrics or outright lies.  He called into news programs and tabloids alike to ensure he was being discussed.

He maintained these same tendencies on the campaign trail.  Then for some reason people are shocked that he acts this way now. 

DaMa

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 06:03:51 PM »
I remember him in 1990 when the Marla Maples story was big.  I thought he was a disgusting sexist a$$ then, and he only got worse. 

To second rab-bit, the real problem is how so many people can look at the same thing and see a great man doing everything right.  WTF? 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 06:08:55 PM »
He's avoided more pointless endless foreign conflicts which the rest of the Western world get dragged into, and pulled the US out of treaties favouring the US, leaving remaining participants to negotiate better deals.

Donald Trump is the best US President the rest of the world has ever had. Trump 2020! And if his followers are ambitious and brave enough, they can make Trump 2024 happen, too!

I'm serious. And I'm more serious when I say that unless his opponents grasp why people voted for him, and why they will again (here's a tip: calling 100 million Americans deplorable racists isn't the key to getting them to vote for you instead), he will keep on winning elections.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 06:43:21 PM »
Donald Trump is the best US President the rest of the world has ever had. Trump 2020!

I highly doubt that. I’m guessing the Kurds do, too. As well as the Hong Kong protesters. And any family of refugees who have tried to apply for asylum in the US, only to have their children literally stolen from them. And most journalists. And most Ukrainians. And any population who will be imminently affected by climate change.

And...

And...

Well-to-do heterosexual white people in first-world countries can afford to be complacent in the short term, though.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 06:55:27 PM by Kris »

BECABECA

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 06:49:59 PM »
He's avoided more pointless endless foreign conflicts which the rest of the Western world get dragged into, and pulled the US out of treaties favouring the US, leaving remaining participants to negotiate better deals.

Donald Trump is the best US President the rest of the world has ever had. Trump 2020! And if his followers are ambitious and brave enough, they can make Trump 2024 happen, too!

I'm serious. And I'm more serious when I say that unless his opponents grasp why people voted for him, and why they will again (here's a tip: calling 100 million Americans deplorable racists isn't the key to getting them to vote for you instead), he will keep on winning elections.

If you were in Russia, or China, or North Korea, or were one of the various dictators in power around the world, I would concede your point. But you’re in Australia. You are seriously underestimating how this whole Trump as president SNAFU has weakened any country that calls the U.S. an ally and what has been done to date will have repercussions that play out for decades.

Let’s think a little more about NATO’s Collective Defense article, since you brought it up. With Trump’s handlers allowing him to suddenly ditch our Kurdish allies to fend for themselves, all his complaints about NATO countries not “pulling their weight” on defense budgets is really scary. If I was in a NATO country that was anywhere near the vicinity of China or Russia, I would sure as shit not be hoping for Trump 2020. And Trump 2024 would mean the U.S. democracy has fallen, which would be pretty dire news for democratic countries across the world.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 07:16:25 PM »
I really cannot even describe what it was like to live through Thursday, Oct. 17. But it's now been almost two weeks, and we're accumulating a fresh set of missteps from our overmatched Commander-and-Chief.

A little about me: I'm a registered Republican who voted in the 2016 primary, but saw immediately that Trump would be a bad President. I didn't think the modest progress on conservative causes would justify the corrosion of our discourse and foreign policy and brazen corruption that Trump and his immediate appointees would perpetrate in the open.

I'm starting this new thread to be a landing point for people who want to say they were right about Trump all along.

It's possible you're reading this and think I've sized him up too incharitably; you're welcome here, too.

Trump was such an indecorous vulgarian that I could not vote for him.

Due to his appalling constitutional illiteracy I expected that Trump would damage the institution of the presidency.

He met my expectation  through his  disregard of the doctrine of separation of powers and failure to  safeguard the presidential  prerogative of executive privilege.






GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2019, 07:36:13 PM »
Going through old posts about Trump, it seems that I'm a prophet:

Reading the Trump related arguments and so many people just not understanding how an obviously unqualified and generally terrible person who insults people at the drop of a had, shoots off his mouth without thinking, and by all rights should have no real shot at being elected is doing so well . . . it's really disturbing how closely this parallels the conversations we were having in Toronto before Rob Ford was elected.  Be very, very wary of thinking that normal rules of politics (or even decency) apply to this candidate, and don't underestimate his appeal/popularity to certain segments of society.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2019, 09:35:29 PM »
I highly doubt that. I’m guessing the Kurds do, too.
The Kurds will achieve autonomy within Syria, which is the most they could hope for, realistically. An independent Kurdistan would require our going to war with Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. You signing up? They'll get autonomy. The Turks will withdraw after a decent enough period that Erdogan can save face. And Syria will have more freedom than it had before the Arab Spring.


Edit: and context for the US withdrawal, there's a constitutional convention of Syrian government and opposition meeting in Geneva to write a new constitution to be voted on by the people ahead of UN-supervised elections. This constitution seems unlikely to include "kill all Kurds."


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/long-awaited-syrian-constitutional-committee-meets-time-191030151424363.html


If the people themselves are organising a peaceful settlement, why would we wish to perpetuate the conflict?

Now, if not an independent Kurdistan, what should the West pursue? Define this exactly, and then define exactly what price we should be willing to pay to do this in lives, dollars and time. Because failing to be clear about these things leads to things like the Afghan War - which nobody seems to have noticed turned 18 this last month. Eighteen years. Even the commies got out after half that long.

Quote
As well as the Hong Kong protesters. [...] And most Ukrainians
What should be done here? You want to drop the 10th Mountain Division in Hong Kong or Donetsk something? You want to get into a conflict with a nuclear power?

Quote
And any population who will be imminently affected by climate change.
Speaking from Australia, which is per capita one of the worst carbon polluters on the planet - the US isn't solely to blame for climate change, let alone the US President. And nobody else except your Green Jill Stein is going to stop US emissions rising in the next few years. Voting for her? If so, all good - but I don't like her prospects, even if she got in, well Congress and the states and the Supreme Court would stop her.

Think of it this way: one of Obama's key promises was closing Guantanamo Bay prison. And he couldn't do it in eight years. And you expect a US President to be able to get the US off oil, coal and natural gas? Carter tried it 40 years ago, lost the next election and Reagan took down his solar panels. It's not going to happen.

Your checks and balances stop US Presidents from being able to do much more on their own than blow shit up. That's why at some point they all do that.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 03:18:09 AM by Kyle Schuant »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2019, 06:48:43 AM »
I'm all outraged out, unfortunately.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2019, 09:25:44 AM »
I highly doubt that. I’m guessing the Kurds do, too.
The Kurds will achieve autonomy within Syria, which is the most they could hope for, realistically. An independent Kurdistan would require our going to war with Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. You signing up? They'll get autonomy. The Turks will withdraw after a decent enough period that Erdogan can save face. And Syria will have more freedom than it had before the Arab Spring.


Edit: and context for the US withdrawal, there's a constitutional convention of Syrian government and opposition meeting in Geneva to write a new constitution to be voted on by the people ahead of UN-supervised elections. This constitution seems unlikely to include "kill all Kurds."


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/long-awaited-syrian-constitutional-committee-meets-time-191030151424363.html


If the people themselves are organising a peaceful settlement, why would we wish to perpetuate the conflict?

Now, if not an independent Kurdistan, what should the West pursue? Define this exactly, and then define exactly what price we should be willing to pay to do this in lives, dollars and time. Because failing to be clear about these things leads to things like the Afghan War - which nobody seems to have noticed turned 18 this last month. Eighteen years. Even the commies got out after half that long.

Quote
As well as the Hong Kong protesters. [...] And most Ukrainians
What should be done here? You want to drop the 10th Mountain Division in Hong Kong or Donetsk something? You want to get into a conflict with a nuclear power?

Quote
And any population who will be imminently affected by climate change.
Speaking from Australia, which is per capita one of the worst carbon polluters on the planet - the US isn't solely to blame for climate change, let alone the US President. And nobody else except your Green Jill Stein is going to stop US emissions rising in the next few years. Voting for her? If so, all good - but I don't like her prospects, even if she got in, well Congress and the states and the Supreme Court would stop her.

Think of it this way: one of Obama's key promises was closing Guantanamo Bay prison. And he couldn't do it in eight years. And you expect a US President to be able to get the US off oil, coal and natural gas? Carter tried it 40 years ago, lost the next election and Reagan took down his solar panels. It's not going to happen.

Your checks and balances stop US Presidents from being able to do much more on their own than blow shit up. That's why at some point they all do that.

Kyle-
I acknowledge that you think the rest of world gains from American weakness. Thinking of America as simply a power player in struggling for global influence, that may be true.

But American foreign policy was designed--not perfectly, but in aspiration--to support Liberal values of freedom of expression, self government, and the opportunity to flourish that was first described in America's founding documents. George W. Bush enacted unwise policies, but he always described these values as a goal. Trump's foreign policy truly seems to be abandoning those values. You can argue that his choices are tactical or pragmatic, but a side effect of ceding the role as a global guarantor of security is that the influence will be picked up by the other Great Powers, which are fairly open in their distaste for these values.

The US foreign policy affects global security, but it also loses a moral dimension when not paired with these values.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 09:39:07 AM »
In the world of Trumpisms, this has fallen a bit by the wayside, but his continued pressure for lower interest rates is problematic both economically in the long term (or at least that's, like, my opinion, man) but also politicizes the Fed, which is bad in terms of trust in the dollar.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/trump-keeps-pushing-negative-interest-rates-what-would-mean-your-n1056546

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 10:21:43 AM »
But American foreign policy was designed--not perfectly, but in aspiration--to support Liberal values of freedom of expression, self government, and the opportunity to flourish that was first described in America's founding documents.

Do you guys not get world history in the US?  What you're saying is laughably and demonstrably false.

You know why the Iranians hate America?  It's because the US orchestrated the overthrow the democratically elected government to implement a dictator . . . who the Iranian people were forced to live under until the the Iranian revolution several decades later.  This pattern repeats over and over through history.

1960 - Democratic Republic of Congo:  Democratic president overthrown by the CIA to institute a dictator (Mobutu Sese Seko)
1964 - Brazil: Operation Brother Sam overthrew democratically elected government to institute a dictator (General Branco) who immediately arrested 50,000 political opponents
1967 - Indonesia:  Aided in toppling democratically elected government to institute a military dictator (General Suharto).  Aided and encouraged mass killings/genocide
1970 - Cambodia:  Aided in toppling democratically elected government via coup, instituting years of unrest and civil war
1973 - Chile: Engineered the coup to topple democratically elected government to institute a military dictator (Augusto Pinochet)
1980s - Afghanistan: Provided weapons and training to mujaheddin jihadi guerrillas (Operation Cyclone) to fight soviets.
mid1980s - Nicaragua: Trained contras in techniques to bomb/terrorize civilians, assassinate judges, and blackmail ordinary citizens in an attempt to overthrow the government.  The US directly caused many civilian deaths by mining Corinto harbour, and blowing up bridges.
1991 - Haiti:  Trained the people involved, and set up the coup to depose democratically elected President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.


Of course, there's the more recent stuff:
- Illegally (under international law, and the Geneva conventions) kidnapping and detaining (for decades) people accused of being terrorists . . . based on evidence so flimsy that none of the detainees has ever been convicted in a real court.  Performing routine torture (waterboarding, beatings, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, rapes) and murders under the US flag.
- Illegally (under international law) executing civilians and suspecting enemy combatants alike via drone strike.
- Crushing the regime of Saddam . . . but then retreating from Iraq without establishing a strong government, allowing Saddam's old military leaders to create ISIS.

This list could go on, and on, and on with many more examples of the US doing things that have made lives around the world significantly worse.



George W. Bush enacted unwise policies, but he always described these values as a goal. Trump's foreign policy truly seems to be abandoning those values. You can argue that his choices are tactical or pragmatic, but a side effect of ceding the role as a global guarantor of security is that the influence will be picked up by the other Great Powers, which are fairly open in their distaste for these values.

The US foreign policy affects global security, but it also loses a moral dimension when not paired with these values.

US foreign policy has always had an effect on global security.  It has always been in US interests though . . . doing an awful lot of harm to the world in the process.

BlueHouse

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 10:27:16 AM »
Trump is just about exactly as bad as I thought he would be. It just seemed so obvious. He is a cancer on our country, and on the world at large.

I still can't believe any thinking person voted for him.

Isn't it amazing that what seems so obvious to you and me is not all all obvious to so many other people? That's the part that I am still struggling to understand.

My BIL voted for Trump.  He doesn't think he's an ideal President, and he doesn't do much to defend him, but he digs his heels in when anyone else criticizes him.  And comments like these make him hold his ground even harder.  I think he may have admitted long ago that Trump is a loser, if I hadn't been saying "I told you so" or demeaning his base all these months. 

My BIL is quite intelligent and even pretty thoughtful.  He's usually fair and impartial, so I really don't get it, but to fix this mess we're in (both on a personal level for me and wider level for the country) I think we need to find a way to let those people off the hook and bring them back to being decent human beings again.  Tell them they were hypnotized or something that doesn't make them feel so stupid. 

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 10:33:54 AM »
I highly doubt that. I’m guessing the Kurds do, too.
The Kurds will achieve autonomy within Syria, which is the most they could hope for, realistically. An independent Kurdistan would require our going to war with Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. You signing up? They'll get autonomy. The Turks will withdraw after a decent enough period that Erdogan can save face. And Syria will have more freedom than it had before the Arab Spring.


Edit: and context for the US withdrawal, there's a constitutional convention of Syrian government and opposition meeting in Geneva to write a new constitution to be voted on by the people ahead of UN-supervised elections. This constitution seems unlikely to include "kill all Kurds."


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/long-awaited-syrian-constitutional-committee-meets-time-191030151424363.html


If the people themselves are organising a peaceful settlement, why would we wish to perpetuate the conflict?

Now, if not an independent Kurdistan, what should the West pursue? Define this exactly, and then define exactly what price we should be willing to pay to do this in lives, dollars and time. Because failing to be clear about these things leads to things like the Afghan War - which nobody seems to have noticed turned 18 this last month. Eighteen years. Even the commies got out after half that long.

Quote
As well as the Hong Kong protesters. [...] And most Ukrainians
What should be done here? You want to drop the 10th Mountain Division in Hong Kong or Donetsk something? You want to get into a conflict with a nuclear power?

Quote
And any population who will be imminently affected by climate change.
Speaking from Australia, which is per capita one of the worst carbon polluters on the planet - the US isn't solely to blame for climate change, let alone the US President. And nobody else except your Green Jill Stein is going to stop US emissions rising in the next few years. Voting for her? If so, all good - but I don't like her prospects, even if she got in, well Congress and the states and the Supreme Court would stop her.

Think of it this way: one of Obama's key promises was closing Guantanamo Bay prison. And he couldn't do it in eight years. And you expect a US President to be able to get the US off oil, coal and natural gas? Carter tried it 40 years ago, lost the next election and Reagan took down his solar panels. It's not going to happen.

Your checks and balances stop US Presidents from being able to do much more on their own than blow shit up. That's why at some point they all do that.

Kyle-
I acknowledge that you think the rest of world gains from American weakness. Thinking of America as simply a power player in struggling for global influence, that may be true.

But American foreign policy was designed--not perfectly, but in aspiration--to support Liberal values of freedom of expression, self government, and the opportunity to flourish that was first described in America's founding documents. George W. Bush enacted unwise policies, but he always described these values as a goal. Trump's foreign policy truly seems to be abandoning those values. You can argue that his choices are tactical or pragmatic, but a side effect of ceding the role as a global guarantor of security is that the influence will be picked up by the other Great Powers, which are fairly open in their distaste for these values.

The US foreign policy affects global security, but it also loses a moral dimension when not paired with these values.

I would posit that anything Trump does that is beneficial for the country or the world is an accidental byproduct of the reason he does anything, which is to benefit himself. He’s morally bankrupt (probably financially, too).

And by the way, Hillary did not call PEOPLE deplorable but rather the beliefs and organizations that espouse deplorable shit. But if the shoe fits ...

BlueHouse

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2019, 10:34:47 AM »
I had NO IDEA that other Republicans would enable and back him. 
I truly thought our Constitution was so strong and beautifully thought out, but now I see you can drive a truck through it. 

I thought we had some degree of safety because really, how much damage could one person do? 

BECABECA

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2019, 10:42:01 AM »
...we need to find a way to let those people off the hook and bring them back to being decent human beings again.  Tell them they were hypnotized or something that doesn't make them feel so stupid.

That’s what I see the impeachment proceedings doing. Public opinion continues to trend more favorably for it and it gives the GOP a way out, since it’ll be up to them in the senate to take down Trump. But we've been seeing a lot of Republican congressmen just opting to not seek re-election when they disagree with Trumpism, gonna need them to instead stick around and speak up.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2019, 11:18:13 AM »
I think we need to find a way to let those people off the hook and bring them back to being decent human beings again.  Tell them they were hypnotized or something that doesn't make them feel so stupid.

I read this and couldn't help but think of Harry Potter, and how so many former Death Eaters claimed they were controlled by the Imperious Curse once he was defeated, and they were allowed to return (mostly) to their normal lives.  Of course many were flat out lying about being under a curse, and secretly continued to support the dark lord and his racist, "wizard-first" agenda.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2019, 11:48:34 AM »
But American foreign policy was designed--not perfectly, but in aspiration--to support Liberal values of freedom of expression, self government, and the opportunity to flourish that was first described in America's founding documents.

Do you guys not get world history in the US?  What you're saying is laughably and demonstrably false.

You know why the Iranians hate America?  It's because the US orchestrated the overthrow the democratically elected government to implement a dictator . . . who the Iranian people were forced to live under until the the Iranian revolution several decades later.  This pattern repeats over and over through history.

1960 - Democratic Republic of Congo:  Democratic president overthrown by the CIA to institute a dictator (Mobutu Sese Seko)
1964 - Brazil: Operation Brother Sam overthrew democratically elected government to institute a dictator (General Branco) who immediately arrested 50,000 political opponents
1967 - Indonesia:  Aided in toppling democratically elected government to institute a military dictator (General Suharto).  Aided and encouraged mass killings/genocide
1970 - Cambodia:  Aided in toppling democratically elected government via coup, instituting years of unrest and civil war
1973 - Chile: Engineered the coup to topple democratically elected government to institute a military dictator (Augusto Pinochet)
1980s - Afghanistan: Provided weapons and training to mujaheddin jihadi guerrillas (Operation Cyclone) to fight soviets.
mid1980s - Nicaragua: Trained contras in techniques to bomb/terrorize civilians, assassinate judges, and blackmail ordinary citizens in an attempt to overthrow the government.  The US directly caused many civilian deaths by mining Corinto harbour, and blowing up bridges.
1991 - Haiti:  Trained the people involved, and set up the coup to depose democratically elected President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.


Of course, there's the more recent stuff:
- Illegally (under international law, and the Geneva conventions) kidnapping and detaining (for decades) people accused of being terrorists . . . based on evidence so flimsy that none of the detainees has ever been convicted in a real court.  Performing routine torture (waterboarding, beatings, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, rapes) and murders under the US flag.
- Illegally (under international law) executing civilians and suspecting enemy combatants alike via drone strike.
- Crushing the regime of Saddam . . . but then retreating from Iraq without establishing a strong government, allowing Saddam's old military leaders to create ISIS.

This list could go on, and on, and on with many more examples of the US doing things that have made lives around the world significantly worse.



George W. Bush enacted unwise policies, but he always described these values as a goal. Trump's foreign policy truly seems to be abandoning those values. You can argue that his choices are tactical or pragmatic, but a side effect of ceding the role as a global guarantor of security is that the influence will be picked up by the other Great Powers, which are fairly open in their distaste for these values.

The US foreign policy affects global security, but it also loses a moral dimension when not paired with these values.

US foreign policy has always had an effect on global security.  It has always been in US interests though . . . doing an awful lot of harm to the world in the process.

It seems that you're placing Trump as merely the latest in a long line of consistent stewards of US foreign policy. Perhaps I am a naiffe, but I'll aspire to better, with the thought that someone other than Trump could take us to this.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2019, 11:49:48 AM »
Trump is just about exactly as bad as I thought he would be. It just seemed so obvious. He is a cancer on our country, and on the world at large.

I still can't believe any thinking person voted for him.

Isn't it amazing that what seems so obvious to you and me is not all all obvious to so many other people? That's the part that I am still struggling to understand.

My BIL voted for Trump.  He doesn't think he's an ideal President, and he doesn't do much to defend him, but he digs his heels in when anyone else criticizes him.  And comments like these make him hold his ground even harder.  I think he may have admitted long ago that Trump is a loser, if I hadn't been saying "I told you so" or demeaning his base all these months. 

My BIL is quite intelligent and even pretty thoughtful.  He's usually fair and impartial, so I really don't get it, but to fix this mess we're in (both on a personal level for me and wider level for the country) I think we need to find a way to let those people off the hook and bring them back to being decent human beings again.  Tell them they were hypnotized or something that doesn't make them feel so stupid.

With the election only a year away, I am puzzling about how to persuade such a person to not show up and vote for Trump on election day. Any thoughts?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2019, 12:01:02 PM »
Two points:
1) the Iranian government is against US foreign policy.  One could even fairly say they "hate" the US.  The Iranian people (by and large) do not "hate America".  Big difference.
2) evaluating a country's role in the world solely on perceived failures or unintended consequences will undoubtedly lead you to your preordained conclusion.  To be fair one should look at the broader picture and outcomes, good and bad.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2019, 12:54:18 PM »
Two points:
1) the Iranian government is against US foreign policy.  One could even fairly say they "hate" the US.  The Iranian people (by and large) do not "hate America".  Big difference.
2) evaluating a country's role in the world solely on perceived failures or unintended consequences will undoubtedly lead you to your preordained conclusion.  To be fair one should look at the broader picture and outcomes, good and bad.

What broader picture good outcomes have come from the common US policy of toppling democratically elected governments in order to institute dictators?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2019, 12:59:11 PM »
Two points:
1) the Iranian government is against US foreign policy.  One could even fairly say they "hate" the US.  The Iranian people (by and large) do not "hate America".  Big difference.
2) evaluating a country's role in the world solely on perceived failures or unintended consequences will undoubtedly lead you to your preordained conclusion.  To be fair one should look at the broader picture and outcomes, good and bad.

What broader picture good outcomes have come from the common US policy of toppling democratically elected governments in order to institute dictators?

It helped a few oil and fruit company executives make a lot of money.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2019, 02:58:26 PM »
Two points:
1) the Iranian government is against US foreign policy.  One could even fairly say they "hate" the US.  The Iranian people (by and large) do not "hate America".  Big difference.
2) evaluating a country's role in the world solely on perceived failures or unintended consequences will undoubtedly lead you to your preordained conclusion.  To be fair one should look at the broader picture and outcomes, good and bad.

What broader picture good outcomes have come from the common US policy of toppling democratically elected governments in order to institute dictators?

All of your examples of toppling governments are from the Cold War, where the Soviet Union was already interfering in those countries. If the U.S. didn’t get involved, it would just have meant that the Soviet Union would have been consolidated more power and then realize it could operate unopposed and start occupying Western European countries. The “broader picture good outcome” of this is that the Cold War stayed cold and the world didn’t get dragged into World War III as it very likely could have if the Soviet Union didn’t face the resistance that they did from U.S. forces.

We learned our lesson not “interfering” early enough with WWII. Let’s not forget about that specific democratically elected government that I think everyone can agree needed toppling.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2019, 04:12:45 PM »
My BIL voted for Trump.  He doesn't think he's an ideal President, and he doesn't do much to defend him, but he digs his heels in when anyone else criticizes him.  And comments like these make him hold his ground even harder.  I think he may have admitted long ago that Trump is a loser, if I hadn't been saying "I told you so" or demeaning his base all these months. 

My BIL is quite intelligent and even pretty thoughtful.  He's usually fair and impartial, so I really don't get it, but to fix this mess we're in (both on a personal level for me and wider level for the country) I think we need to find a way to let those people off the hook and bring them back to being decent human beings again.  Tell them they were hypnotized or something that doesn't make them feel so stupid.

With the election only a year away, I am puzzling about how to persuade such a person to not show up and vote for Trump on election day. Any thoughts?

I think the approach depends on the person and the situation.  I think part of it is acknowledging some of their frustrations that may have led them to vote for Trump(or perhaps against Clinton, as the case may be).  And then, depending on what their reasons are, there may or may not be an avenue.  (For instance, if they have hardline views on immigration, you're probably not going to persuade them)

If you're trying to be persuasive, don't go down the "how could you possibly have voted for that (negative adjective)" road.  Instead, focus on the ways in which Trump hasn't lived up to the reasons that that person may have chosen to vote for him.  Point out empty promises.  For instance "Drain the Swamp" looks and sounds absurd when your Secretary of Education comes from a family of Republican megadonors, you appoint your daughter and son-in-law to official positions, your Secretary of Transportation was a previous Cabinet member(and the spouse of the Senate majority leader), and you actually thought it was appropriate to try to schedule a G-8(G-7?) meeting at your own property.

Also, offer information rather than judgement - if you try to tell someone what to think it'll backfire 99 times out of 100.  If you help by giving them access to information/examples that support an alternative perspective you may have more success.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2019, 11:07:06 PM »
I have admired Kyle Schuant's posts in the past, but her post at reply #10 puzzles me. Kyle, you seem to say that Trump is trying to return the US to the isolationist stance it had in the remote past, but the world is more enmeshed now than it was in the past. WW2 and the aftermath showed the US that it can use its great economic and military power to influence other parts of the world its way, and that American Way fits well with the goals of other rich countries.

Trump clearly does not understand what he is doing, now how the American Constitution works. Other nations work around Trump's missteps.

I strongly recommend the book below, 'War by Other Means', which declares that the US relies too much on military power and not enough on statecraft, or geo-economics, that is using foreign aid and foreign investment to influence other parts of the world towards the US, the way Russia and China use statecraft to influence other parts of the world their way.

https://www.amazon.com/War-Other-Means-Geoeconomics-Statecraft/dp/0674979796/ref=sr_1_1?crid=538UV3586BN5&keywords=war+by+other+means&qid=1572583819&s=books&sprefix=war+by+othefr+means%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C1105&sr=1-1

Russia is not the superpower it was during the Cold War, so NATO military power might be adequate to counter Russian military power.



Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2019, 12:09:19 AM »

I would posit that anything Trump does that is beneficial for the country or the world is an accidental byproduct of the reason he does anything, which is to benefit himself. He’s morally bankrupt (probably financially, too).
Sure. But being hurt or helped by accident leads to the same end result as being hurt or helped on purpose. You're worse or better off. I don't care what Drumpf really feels or intends, I care about results.

Quote
And by the way, Hillary did not call PEOPLE deplorable but rather the beliefs and organizations that espouse deplorable shit. But if the shoe fits ...
Yep, you keep talking that way, insulting 100 million of your fellow Americans - that's exactly what Drumpf wants, to keep the middle class divided from the working class, so that the working class will keep voting for him. If you want him back in 2020, you just keep doing what you're doing.

Kyle, you seem to say that Trump is trying to return the US to the isolationist stance it had in the remote past, but the world is more enmeshed now than it was in the past.

I've no idea what Drumpf is trying to do, and I'm not convinced he does, either. My impression was that he was honestly surprised to win the election - notice that for months before anyone even voted he was going on about Dem-sponsored voting fraud, he was preparing to lose and then whinge about it. And he obviously had no idea who he wanted in his Cabinet - I mean, Jill Stein probably doesn't have a Cabinet lined up, either, you don't if you expect to lose. Probably it was all just a way to boost his brand.

But the result of what we can generously call his "policies" is a more isolationist US. And at this stage in history that's good for the world. I don't care about his feelings or intentions, only the results.

That the world is enmeshed is irrelevant. Do you know who the world's biggest trading partners were in 1914? The UK and Germany. It's like homicide - usually the people know each-other well, after all how much can you be annoyed by a complete stranger? The more closely countries are entwined, the more they have to argue about. Now, we might think that more intelligent people can resolve disagreements without the use of force, but Drumpf is the dumbest President you've had for a while (Dubya was dumber objectively, but he at least knew he was dumb and listened to other people's advice, which was both good and bad, oh hello there Cheney) and he's managed not to invade anyone, much to the disappointment of other Presidential candidates, apparently. Maybe there's a good side to having a cowardly draft-dodger in the White House?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2019, 12:19:26 AM »
All of your examples of toppling governments are from the Cold War, where the Soviet Union was already interfering in those countries. If the U.S. didn’t get involved, it would just have meant that the Soviet Union would have been consolidated more power and then -
And yet the people in those countries are not grateful to the US. Sad! It's like Kipling told the US back in 1899, you'll get the blame of these ye better, those half-devil, half-children! But we can't expect those savages to know what's good for them, better bomb them into civilisation, eh?

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!


Alternately, rather than engaging in racist supremacy, you could just leave other countries alone. You can encourage things like democracy and rule of law without bombing, invading or assassinating anyone. Not that democracy and rule of law are part of US foreign policy (hi there Saudis!), but anyway... nice theory.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2019, 02:17:45 AM »
But American foreign policy was designed--not perfectly, but in aspiration--to support Liberal values of freedom of expression, self government, and the opportunity to flourish that was first described in America's founding documents. George W. Bush enacted unwise policies, but he always described these values as a goal. Trump's foreign policy truly seems to be abandoning those values. You can argue that his choices are tactical or pragmatic, but a side effect of ceding the role as a global guarantor of security is that the influence will be picked up by the other Great Powers, which are fairly open in their distaste for these values.

The US foreign policy affects global security, but it also loses a moral dimension when not paired with these values.


All of your examples of toppling governments are from the Cold War, where the Soviet Union was already interfering in those countries. If the U.S. didn’t get involved, it would just have meant that the Soviet Union would have been consolidated more power and then realize it could operate unopposed and start occupying Western European countries. The “broader picture good outcome” of this is that the Cold War stayed cold and the world didn’t get dragged into World War III as it very likely could have if the Soviet Union didn’t face the resistance that they did from U.S. forces.

We learned our lesson not “interfering” early enough with WWII. Let’s not forget about that specific democratically elected government that I think everyone can agree needed toppling.

We can't have it both ways.  Either we're supporting governments in our own interests regardless of who is running them, or we're promoting liberal democracy and freedom to choose.  The Soviets crushed any whispers of freedom in their sphere of influence and we just stood by and watched in the name of peace.  We waged war in Vietnam for a decade to bring them democracy in order to give communism a bloody nose long after we realized it wasn't working.  President Bush Sr. told the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam because he's such a bad character, but we did nothing to help because getting rid of him was a distant second to maintaining order in the region.  Fast forward 20 years and we freed them of Saddam, but then got upset when they elected a religious fundamentalist who didn't like us.  We'll preach about freedom all day long, but only do something about it when it intersects our strategic interests.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2019, 09:29:11 AM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general





nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2019, 09:32:05 AM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

Ok, question for you @talltexan - given your background how would you say they compare to the last ~6 years of Obama's presidency?  I ask because from my perspective it seems like they are more or less the same... the economy continues to expand, slowly, and things continue to get better, albeit slowly.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2019, 09:41:24 AM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

Ok, question for you @talltexan - given your background how would you say they compare to the last ~6 years of Obama's presidency?  I ask because from my perspective it seems like they are more or less the same... the economy continues to expand, slowly, and things continue to get better, albeit slowly.
Is it correct to say that it would be hard not to have at least a decent economy with Fed rates kept this low? Is there a hidden downside when we don't have room to wiggle with Fed rates in the next recession (unless we want to just go to negative rates)? With unemployment rates very low, is it really worth trying to gas the economy more with low rates? I would be in favor of increasing them again during the good times. Open to other points of view on this. What am I missing?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2019, 09:49:30 AM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

But if he was honest about something it might set precedent he doesn't want to maintain.

At first I wrote that sarcastically, but there's probably some truth in it.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2019, 09:56:43 AM »
There's a joke about old NYers moving to Florida in here somewhere....
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/31/us/politics/trump-new-york-florida-primary-residence.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR2uzcd3PaFdJQYRFAOZV-cPAhSAxAk__UPK5TvpkeY-jFjNHt6elfxjGL0

From the article:
Quote
White House officials declined to say why Mr. Trump changed his primary residence, but a person close to the president said the reasons were primarily for tax purposes.

In his Twitter posts on Thursday night, the president claimed that he paid “millions of dollars in city, state and local taxes each year.” There is no way to fact-check his assertion; he has never released his tax returns.

Mr. Trump, who is deeply unpopular in New York, was infuriated by a subpoena filed by Cyrus R. Vance Jr., the Manhattan district attorney, seeking the tax returns, the person close to the president said. Changing his residence to Florida is not expected to have any effect on Mr. Vance’s case, which Mr. Trump has sought to thwart with a federal lawsuit.

It was unclear how much time he would spend in New York in the future or if he would keep his triplex at the top of Trump Tower. Under New York law, if he spends more than 184 days a year there, he will have to pay state income taxes.

Florida, which does not have a state income tax or inheritance tax, has long been a place for the wealthy to escape the higher taxes of the Northeast.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2019, 10:22:58 AM »
Beginning with the odd maneuvers of US troops to secure Kurdish oil fields: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQxsTslcTlAhWyiOAKHVv2A38QFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2019%2F10%2Ftrump-syria-oil-war-crime.html&usg=AOvVaw1AJmpkSYr1gLcTUUcUQHjt


As an inhabitant of a oil rich nation, this article is SCARY. We all know that oil has been one of the reasons behind earlier "interventions", but to say outright that the US should get the income from oil fields they "liberate"? That is new. How long before they need to "liberate" the oil fields in the North Sea, or Greenland?

One the positive side; last week we celebrated the 75th anniversary of Sovjet kicking the Germans out of northern Norway. After the war, they politely left again. Maybe it is time to reconsider NATO and get friendly with the eastern bear?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2019, 10:41:59 AM »
Beginning with the odd maneuvers of US troops to secure Kurdish oil fields: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQxsTslcTlAhWyiOAKHVv2A38QFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2019%2F10%2Ftrump-syria-oil-war-crime.html&usg=AOvVaw1AJmpkSYr1gLcTUUcUQHjt


As an inhabitant of a oil rich nation, this article is SCARY. We all know that oil has been one of the reasons behind earlier "interventions", but to say outright that the US should get the income from oil fields they "liberate"? That is new. How long before they need to "liberate" the oil fields in the North Sea, or Greenland?

One the positive side; last week we celebrated the 75th anniversary of Sovjet kicking the Germans out of northern Norway. After the war, they politely left again. Maybe it is time to reconsider NATO and get friendly with the eastern bear?

Long before his run for the presidency Trump would frequently comment that we ought to have taken some of the oil when NATO liberated Kuwait, and then again during the second Gulf War. Apparently he's ignored (or simply doesn't care) all of the people who ahve correctly told him that would be a war crime under the Geneva Convention, or that the oil was never ours to begin with.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2019, 10:50:42 AM »
Beginning with the odd maneuvers of US troops to secure Kurdish oil fields: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjQxsTslcTlAhWyiOAKHVv2A38QFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2F2019%2F10%2Ftrump-syria-oil-war-crime.html&usg=AOvVaw1AJmpkSYr1gLcTUUcUQHjt


As an inhabitant of a oil rich nation, this article is SCARY. We all know that oil has been one of the reasons behind earlier "interventions", but to say outright that the US should get the income from oil fields they "liberate"? That is new. How long before they need to "liberate" the oil fields in the North Sea, or Greenland?

One the positive side; last week we celebrated the 75th anniversary of Sovjet kicking the Germans out of northern Norway. After the war, they politely left again. Maybe it is time to reconsider NATO and get friendly with the eastern bear?

Long before his run for the presidency Trump would frequently comment that we ought to have taken some of the oil when NATO liberated Kuwait, and then again during the second Gulf War. Apparently he's ignored (or simply doesn't care) all of the people who ahve correctly told him that would be a war crime under the Geneva Convention, or that the oil was never ours to begin with.
Trump is transactional and selfish to his core. He is also not smart enough to know when (or how) to do something by sleight of hand instead of by bluster. See also: his entire foreign policy and domestic agenda.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2019, 11:07:14 AM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

Ok, question for you @talltexan - given your background how would you say they compare to the last ~6 years of Obama's presidency?  I ask because from my perspective it seems like they are more or less the same... the economy continues to expand, slowly, and things continue to get better, albeit slowly.

I'd agree with this. TCJA caused a "sugar rush" during 2018, but I haven't seen evidence that investment was higher because of it. A lot of people forget about the spending deal in March 2018, but that also was a fiscal stimulus that the GOP House never seemed inclined to provide to Obama.

I also think that--had Romney been elected in 2012--you would have seen some version of TCJA appear in 2013, and it would have truly been the greatest economy ever. Simply based on timing, and Republicans providing votes for his economy that they were never going to provide to Obama or Harry Reid.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2019, 12:19:10 PM »
Two points:
1) the Iranian government is against US foreign policy.  One could even fairly say they "hate" the US.  The Iranian people (by and large) do not "hate America".  Big difference.
2) evaluating a country's role in the world solely on perceived failures or unintended consequences will undoubtedly lead you to your preordained conclusion.  To be fair one should look at the broader picture and outcomes, good and bad.

What broader picture good outcomes have come from the common US policy of toppling democratically elected governments in order to institute dictators?

All of your examples of toppling governments are from the Cold War, where the Soviet Union was already interfering in those countries.

I get it.  You believe that democracy is only OK for a country when the people pick the leaders that you want them to.  And if they don't, it's better that you put a murderer like Pinochet in power than that they be allowed the freedom to choose.



If the U.S. didn’t get involved, it would just have meant that the Soviet Union would have been consolidated more power and then realize it could operate unopposed and start occupying Western European countries. The “broader picture good outcome” of this is that the Cold War stayed cold and the world didn’t get dragged into World War III as it very likely could have if the Soviet Union didn’t face the resistance that they did from U.S. forces.

I don't agree with your reasoning.  If a cop "knows" that someone he stops is a bad guy, but can't find any evidence, should the officer be allowed to execute the person stopped?  Because with this post you're saying that the imagined ends justify any means - so as long as there's an enemy on the horizon any action can be excused.

This is indeed the same line of reasoning that OK'd American servicemen and women for torturing, sexually assaulting, raping, and murdering prisoners in Abu Grahib or Guantanamo.  It's why Americans execute civilians (and yes, occasionally suspected terrorists) with impunity via drone strike in northern Pakistan.  All in the name of the ends justifying the means.  The thing is, I don't think that even a clear cut case for 'the ends' can be made.



We learned our lesson not “interfering” early enough with WWII. Let’s not forget about that specific democratically elected government that I think everyone can agree needed toppling.

When the second World War ended, America didn't institute another Hitler or Pinochet.  The US helped rebuild Japan and Germany.  A lot of money and effort was spent in preventing the kind of shitty conditions that led to the second world war from happening again.  That was a sensible thing to do, and benefited the world.  Ditto with MacArthur and Japan.

It was a long, slow, painstaking procedure though.  And at some point in history, it's almost like the US decided it wasn't worth fixing problems anymore because of the effort, it was better to half ass it and then walk away.  You can't just yell "COMMIES ARE BAD" and use that to justify putting Pinochet (and many others like him) in power.  Pinochet was bad.  And he was real.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2019, 12:23:09 PM »
Trump is just about exactly as bad as I thought he would be. It just seemed so obvious. He is a cancer on our country, and on the world at large.

I still can't believe any thinking person voted for him.

Isn't it amazing that what seems so obvious to you and me is not all all obvious to so many other people? That's the part that I am still struggling to understand.

Fox News is a helluva drug.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2019, 12:28:51 PM »
He's avoided more pointless endless foreign conflicts which the rest of the Western world get dragged into, and pulled the US out of treaties favouring the US, leaving remaining participants to negotiate better deals.

Donald Trump is the best US President the rest of the world has ever had. Trump 2020! And if his followers are ambitious and brave enough, they can make Trump 2024 happen, too!

I'm serious. And I'm more serious when I say that unless his opponents grasp why people voted for him, and why they will again (here's a tip: calling 100 million Americans deplorable racists isn't the key to getting them to vote for you instead), he will keep on winning elections.

"I'm serious" about a hypothetical unconstitutional power grab.  Ok.  Sure.

Here's a tip - calling every person who doesn't bow down to you "human scum" isn't the key to getting them to vote for you.

Troll on.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2019, 01:07:17 PM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

But if he was honest about something it might set precedent he doesn't want to maintain.

At first I wrote that sarcastically, but there's probably some truth in it.

As far as I can tell, the improvement in the economy that happened in Nov. 2016 was basically 35% of our country decided that we were suddenly and unexpectedly going to have a Republican, business-friendly administration, so things were going to be good.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2019, 01:12:26 PM »
Can I break into this excellent discussion of diplomacy to complain about Trump's 8:52 am tweet on the monthly jobs report (I have a Ph.D. in labor economics and study the economy intensely for my current employer):

  • He shouldn't comment on the report within the first hour
  • He inflated the numbers to claim it was a fantastic report
  • He won't subtract the striking GM workers' jobs next month (ask me how I know...)
  • He didn't need to do any of this deception because it was actually a decent report that shows the labor market is still expanding, and because Trump's economic record is pretty good in general

But if he was honest about something it might set precedent he doesn't want to maintain.

At first I wrote that sarcastically, but there's probably some truth in it.

As far as I can tell, the improvement in the economy that happened in Nov. 2016 was basically 35% of our country decided that we were suddenly and unexpectedly going to have a Republican, business-friendly administration, so things were going to be good.

35%?  How did you arrive at that?