Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 616784 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8100 on: May 29, 2021, 04:53:25 PM »
Now, why didn't old Drumpf think of this?

"It's for public safety."

https://globalnews.ca/news/7893274/covid-canada-election-motion/

This appears to be symbolic and wouldn't actually stop an election from occurring during a pandemic.

As far as I can tell the parties are just signalling that they think the ruling Liberal party should try to not take advantage of the fact that Canadians don't really want to go to the polls during the pandemic because the minority parties really don't want be responsible for holding a vote of no confidence.

This motion passed with a majority vote from all parties!  There was only a single vote against.  Doesn't really sound like much of a power grab . . .

 It's a minority government depending on members of other parties cooperation.   They know darn well that if they do something really iffy there will be a vote of confidence they will lose.  So it is a show, but also a reminder.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8101 on: May 30, 2021, 05:27:43 AM »
Imagine if every child had education and tuition vouchers.
Imagine every child just got the best possible education!

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8102 on: May 30, 2021, 06:55:20 AM »
Small businesses, including farms, can be corporations. The advantage there is that if the founder or CEO dies the business does not fall under the estate tax

Some people want absolute control of their business while alive, but then wish it were not taxed as their personal assets upon death. Seems like a double standard to me. If a business is large enough, just form a private corporation, retain majority decision making but put your heirs on as joint owners.

I don't understand.   Private corporations are owned by shareholders.   If the founder owned a substantial stake, wouldn't this cause the same problem when she died?   Or do you mean that shares in corporations would be exempt?

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8103 on: May 30, 2021, 01:43:18 PM »
Imagine if every child had education and tuition vouchers.
Imagine every child just got the best possible education!

Right. Education shouldn't be a zero-sum game.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8104 on: May 30, 2021, 02:02:50 PM »
Imagine if every child had education and tuition vouchers.
Imagine every child just got the best possible education!

Right. Education shouldn't be a zero-sum game.

Iíve never understood the logic with issuing vouchers.  It seems like thatís the fix lawmakers come up with when they arenít able to make substantial change - i.e. rather than make college affordable to all through direct-fund or tuition caps (e.g. the UK) lawmakers instead give vouchers.

To me, it seems similar to raising taxes but then giving out credits and raising the standard deduction.  The net result is the same, only much more complicated.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8105 on: May 30, 2021, 02:22:19 PM »
Imagine if every child had education and tuition vouchers.
Imagine every child just got the best possible education!

Right. Education shouldn't be a zero-sum game.

Iíve never understood the logic with issuing vouchers.  It seems like thatís the fix lawmakers come up with when they arenít able to make substantial change - i.e. rather than make college affordable to all through direct-fund or tuition caps (e.g. the UK) lawmakers instead give vouchers.

To me, it seems similar to raising taxes but then giving out credits and raising the standard deduction.  The net result is the same, only much more complicated.
It's not about logic, it's about ideology (private sector good, public sector bad) allied to corruption (public money going to private sector profits).

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8106 on: May 30, 2021, 07:40:55 PM »
Because let's say tuition costs $10k per child. You give each family $10k and they waste it - the child has no benefit and the money is dissipated. You give each family a $10k voucher and it can't be wasted.

If you gave a $10k cash handout and it was wasted then there'd still be a (valid) argument that the children aren't on a level playing field.

Interesting thought experiment though - let's say through the largesse of the state each child did have a genuinely good education. Would we even need any further policies to limit inequality? Once everyone has a level playing field why not let the results speak for themselves?

I have a feeling some people dislike inequality per se, even if it's "fair" or "merited", and that I can't sympathise with.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8107 on: May 30, 2021, 08:53:37 PM »
Interesting thought experiment though - let's say through the largesse of the state each child did have a genuinely good education. Would we even need any further policies to limit inequality? Once everyone has a level playing field why not let the results speak for themselves?
Education is a huge part of the issue.  However, it is not the only issue.  Racism, sexism, and the list goes on, all play a part too.  So no, I don't think we could do away with all policies to limit inequality if every child received a genuinely good education.

Quote from: Bloop Bloop Reloaded
I have a feeling some people dislike inequality per se, even if it's "fair" or "merited", and that I can't sympathise with.
I have a feeling some people see inequality as proof of their own superior work ethic, skill, intelligence and overall better character without any willingness to consider the systemic advantages they may have received or the systemic disadvantages others received or the simple luck that plays as huge a part as those other systemic issues.  That I can't sympathise with.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8108 on: May 30, 2021, 09:11:12 PM »
Quote
the systemic advantages they may have received or the systemic disadvantages others received or the simple luck that plays as huge a part as those other systemic issues. 

Besides doing our best to ensure equal education - and obviously to prohibit racism, sexism and cronyism - what other systematic advantages do we need to control for - or should we even control for, if we had the theoretical ability?

Perhaps parenting quality - I mean I'm all for legislating standards of parenting - but then that conflicts with the supposed freedom to procreate, and even the most liberal of liberals aren't going to tell parents what they should or shouldn't do with their kids. Thus those consequences are a natural end of our policies.

What else is there?




PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8109 on: May 30, 2021, 11:00:43 PM »
Quote
the systemic advantages they may have received or the systemic disadvantages others received or the simple luck that plays as huge a part as those other systemic issues. 

Besides doing our best to ensure equal education - and obviously to prohibit racism, sexism and cronyism - what other systematic advantages do we need to control for - or should we even control for, if we had the theoretical ability?

Perhaps parenting quality - I mean I'm all for legislating standards of parenting - but then that conflicts with the supposed freedom to procreate, and even the most liberal of liberals aren't going to tell parents what they should or shouldn't do with their kids. Thus those consequences are a natural end of our policies.

What else is there?
I would argue it would be impossible to create a society truly without systemic advantages/disadvantages.  As such I would argue that some form of policy/legislation regarding equality will always be needed.

But aside from that, my point was actually about the attitude of many/most that find themselves having achieved "success" (define that how you like).  Very few wish to admit that perhaps their success was not entirely the product of their own blood, sweat, and tears and that their success does not make them a more worthy or deserving person than any other particular person who has not achieved "success".

Now sure, before you are tempted to go tilting at straw men (not suggesting you are the type to do so, merely trying to head off any misunderstandings), I freely admit that some people out there are "bludgers" who want it all handed to them on a silver platter without having to work for it.  If we could only find a way to righteously punish such good for nothing moochers without adversely affecting the many, many more who are not "successful" through those aforementioned systemic problems or just plain bad luck, I'd be inclined to explore that.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8110 on: May 30, 2021, 11:37:01 PM »

Your starting point is that if we cannot rid all systematic (by which I take it you mean both external and intrinsic) advantages then we should legislate for equality (of outcome - by definition).

My starting point is that we should only legislate for equality of opportunity and not outcome.

This doesn't mean that I think success is "deserved" in the way that you speak of it - i.e., morally superior; laudable. My definition of success in a meritocratic system is simply that it flows from cause and effect.

I don't think it's easy to distinguish between someone whose lack of success is through "bludging" versus "bad luck". After all, much bludging can be attributed to intrinsic factors or extrinsic factors which are difficult to correct (at least for the person himself or herself). So to me meritocracy doesn't really imply moral judgment of either the successful or less successful. It's a cause and effect system.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8111 on: May 31, 2021, 05:38:24 AM »
Because let's say tuition costs $10k per child. You give each family $10k and they waste it - the child has no benefit and the money is dissipated. You give each family a $10k voucher and it can't be wasted.

If you gave a $10k cash handout and it was wasted then there'd still be a (valid) argument that the children aren't on a level playing field.


Every time I think I have a handle on your philosophy, you surprise me, Bloop2

Upthread I wasnít suggesting we give cash handouts to families instead of tuition vouchers.  As it is, here in in the US one of the largest sources of funding towards higher education is with the Pell grants, which are essentially vouchers for the underprivileged ed under a different name.
Iíd prefer that colleges and universities were drastically cheaper, and that we accomplished this via more direct funding. As one example, see the UK system which has a rather small tuition cap.

If a young-adult doesnít go to college, it wouldnít be because it was prohibitively expensive.

SotI

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8112 on: May 31, 2021, 05:43:18 AM »
As this is OT to an OT thread: I am with @Bloop Bloop Reloaded (BBR for short) on this one.

I grew up in a country where both secondary school and university education has been pretty much state-funded. Still, there have always been capacity issues, so the degrees most in demand still had to be selected based on "merit". Social factors could help, but by and large those with best grades had the best chances. Also, trying to deal with an increasing influx of students at given uni capacities led to other "filters" to bring the numbers back into line (we used to have 80% failure rates in classes which could only be redone 2x before you failed your degree). 

No one in this world will be able to generate equality across all metrics. People are and will be different. And filters to limit group- and growth-size will always be found. Assuming otherwise seems pretty naive to me.
 
I am with BBR that effort should go to providing opportunities and also cover "basic living" (health care, food, accommodation). You don't need a voucher system, though.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8113 on: May 31, 2021, 06:02:12 AM »
Staying off topic   ;-)

The playing field needs leveling before the children even hit school.  Maternal nutrition during pregnancy is a biggie.  Years ago the Montreal Diet Dispensary gave milk (and other food? I forget now) to poor pregnant women to improve baby weight, and it worked.  The babies were born healthier.  A baby born mal-nourished is off to a rocky start.

So adequate food if a woman is pregnant, vitamin supplements (folic acid is soo important for neural development).    The baby box supply I read about that one of the Scandinavian countries has, so every baby goes home with basics.  For me basics includes some board books for parents to read to baby.  If they start that habit maybe it will keep going as baby gets older?  Parents reading to children is very important for future learning.

Bring back home ec and shop in schools but turn them into a "basic life skills" class that everyone takes.  So basic nutrition and how to cook get covered, how to mend clothes gets covered, doing laundry gets covered, basic home repairs and projects get covered.  We assume kids learn these things at home, but when I was a Cub leader (kids 8-10) it was amazing how ignorant the kids were, and this was in a middle class area.   I would make it mandatory in all schools, let the kids from rich families learn there are basics that everyone should know, as well as the poor kids learning skills their parents may not have the time and energy to teach them.  Plus boys learn "girls' jobs" and girls learn "boys' jobs".  Everyone should be able to shop for and cook a meal and clean up afterwards, and then put up a shelf (level, not sloped) and fix the flapper on the toilet.

I've always liked this Lazarus Long quote: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8114 on: May 31, 2021, 07:08:27 AM »
Quote
the systemic advantages they may have received or the systemic disadvantages others received or the simple luck that plays as huge a part as those other systemic issues. 

Besides doing our best to ensure equal education - and obviously to prohibit racism, sexism and cronyism - what other systematic advantages do we need to control for - or should we even control for, if we had the theoretical ability?

Perhaps parenting quality - I mean I'm all for legislating standards of parenting - but then that conflicts with the supposed freedom to procreate, and even the most liberal of liberals aren't going to tell parents what they should or shouldn't do with their kids. Thus those consequences are a natural end of our policies.

What else is there?
I would argue it would be impossible to create a society truly without systemic advantages/disadvantages.  As such I would argue that some form of policy/legislation regarding equality will always be needed.

But aside from that, my point was actually about the attitude of many/most that find themselves having achieved "success" (define that how you like).  Very few wish to admit that perhaps their success was not entirely the product of their own blood, sweat, and tears and that their success does not make them a more worthy or deserving person than any other particular person who has not achieved "success".

Now sure, before you are tempted to go tilting at straw men (not suggesting you are the type to do so, merely trying to head off any misunderstandings), I freely admit that some people out there are "bludgers" who want it all handed to them on a silver platter without having to work for it.  If we could only find a way to righteously punish such good for nothing moochers without adversely affecting the many, many more who are not "successful" through those aforementioned systemic problems or just plain bad luck, I'd be inclined to explore that.


Your starting point is that if we cannot rid all systematic (by which I take it you mean both external and intrinsic) advantages then we should legislate for equality (of outcome - by definition).

My starting point is that we should only legislate for equality of opportunity and not outcome.

At first glance, this seems to be a mischaracterization of PKFFW's response.  Reading his stated argument I got 'since we cannot get rid of all systemic inequality we will always need to have programs to try to make everyone's starting point more equal'.  You appear to have found 'legislate for equality of outcome'.  I suspect that my reading is closer to PKFFW's original intent, but will leave that to him to answer.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8115 on: May 31, 2021, 08:09:24 AM »
Can we keep this roughly on topic and take the "equal opportunity" stuff back over here where it was discussed for days?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8116 on: May 31, 2021, 10:18:58 AM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8117 on: May 31, 2021, 10:24:31 AM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

I feel that Trump has been riding on the unequalness of the opportunity that he was born with for quite some time.  :P

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8118 on: May 31, 2021, 10:58:56 AM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

I feel that Trump has been riding on the unequalness of the opportunity that he was born with for quite some time.  :P

Troof. If we had a more meritocratic system, Trump would be a used car salesman on a corner lot in a suburb of a medium sized town.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8119 on: May 31, 2021, 11:16:08 AM »
Imagine if every child had education and tuition vouchers.
Imagine every child just got the best possible education!

Right. Education shouldn't be a zero-sum game.

Iíve never understood the logic with issuing vouchers.  It seems like thatís the fix lawmakers come up with when they arenít able to make substantial change - i.e. rather than make college affordable to all through direct-fund or tuition caps (e.g. the UK) lawmakers instead give vouchers.

To me, it seems similar to raising taxes but then giving out credits and raising the standard deduction.  The net result is the same, only much more complicated.
It's not about logic, it's about ideology (private sector good, public sector bad) allied to corruption (public money going to private sector profits).

On a sidenote, the same organisations that propaganded for more private pension efforts instead of the state pension system (Germany), because they are better (Free Market you know), are now saying those private models should be taken over by the state since their cost is higher than the results.

Quote
My starting point is that we should only legislate for equality of opportunity and not outcome.
Equality of opportunity - you mean disown everyone with a villa because their child can sleep a lot better than the poor nurse's child who has to live near a loud highway?
You also cannot legislate equality of opportunity. That is just a BS propaganda word from people who do not want to level the field by giving money (in whatever form) to poor people('s children).

Take a 3rd world problem. The best thing you could do to education may be a free warm meal at school. Because only for the meal the parents send the child to school. Only because of the meal the child even has the power to learn.
The thing is, even with that it's far away from "equality of opportunity", right?

Quote
The playing field needs leveling before the children even hit school. 
Money that goes toward primary education (or even earlier) is more effective than money going towards last school years or even university.
Still the money is the fattest on the top in all countries I am aware of. Why? Because there only the "elites" profit from it, not the "undeserving poor". Those have been (mostly) filtered out already.

Okay, shutting up. Trump is a prime example that whatever good education money can buy, it still may be useless to teach manners.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8120 on: May 31, 2021, 04:11:47 PM »

Your starting point is that if we cannot rid all systematic (by which I take it you mean both external and intrinsic) advantages then we should legislate for equality (of outcome - by definition).
I don't think there needs to be exact equality of outcome for all people in all circumstances.  As in I don't think everyone needs to have exactly the same net worth and income.  In fact I acknowledge it would be absolutely impossible to legislate exactly equal outcomes for all people at all times in all circumstances.

I do think there will always need to be policy and legislation aimed at creating a more equal society.  The concentration of wealth into the hands of a few is simply not good for society and should therefore be legislated against to some degree at the very least for the protection of society and the good of all.
Quote from: Bloop Bloop Reloaded
My starting point is that we should only legislate for equality of opportunity and not outcome.
I absolutely agree we should legislate for equality of opportunity.  I don't see why it needs to be an either/or issue though.  We can legislate for equality of opportunity while at the same time acknowledging there are many many reasons inequality exists due to no fault of those receiving the short end of the stick.  While I acknowledge the impossibility and even the necessity of legislating for exactly equal outcomes for all at all times and in all circumstances, I see no reason why we can not legislate towards more equal outcomes that ensure all members of society get a fair share.
Quote from: Bloop Bloop Reloaded
This doesn't mean that I think success is "deserved" in the way that you speak of it - i.e., morally superior; laudable. My definition of success in a meritocratic system is simply that it flows from cause and effect.

I don't think it's easy to distinguish between someone whose lack of success is through "bludging" versus "bad luck". After all, much bludging can be attributed to intrinsic factors or extrinsic factors which are difficult to correct (at least for the person himself or herself). So to me meritocracy doesn't really imply moral judgment of either the successful or less successful. It's a cause and effect system.
It is a cause and effect system and many of those causes directly affect some in a positive way and some in a negative way.  I argue it is simply impossible to legislate away those causes and therefore some form of legislation aiming to ensure the effects are more equally shared is a logical solution.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8121 on: May 31, 2021, 04:18:01 PM »
At first glance, this seems to be a mischaracterization of PKFFW's response.  Reading his stated argument I got 'since we cannot get rid of all systemic inequality we will always need to have programs to try to make everyone's starting point more equal'.  You appear to have found 'legislate for equality of outcome'.  I suspect that my reading is closer to PKFFW's original intent, but will leave that to him to answer.
Yes, my original comment was much closer to your statement.

However, since outcomes was brought up, I commented on that issue as well in my above post.  In short, I do think there will always still need to be some form of policy and legislation aimed at, for want of a better way of stating it, creating more equal outcomes as well.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:40:03 AM by PKFFW »

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8122 on: May 31, 2021, 04:25:36 PM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8123 on: May 31, 2021, 06:11:28 PM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

I saw an analysis of social mobility a few years ago, and the US is not very mobile.  Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all much more mobile, if I remember correctly.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8124 on: June 01, 2021, 06:11:04 AM »
Indeed requiring an expensive education--funded privately--for access to the most lucrative job opportunities (which are themselves only available to people who can live in certain expensive cities) doesn't sound very conducive to mobility to me.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8125 on: June 01, 2021, 06:38:01 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

I saw an analysis of social mobility a few years ago, and the US is not very mobile.  Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all much more mobile, if I remember correctly.

This is part of the "Great Lie" that we are indoctrinated here with in the United States.  We are told repeatedly that the US is the "Land of Opportunity" where anyone can rise up to be successful through hard work and determination.  It's a message that's rarely questioned.  We are also taught that the United States is the one place that everyone else in the world wants to go, that it's the (not a) beacon of light for all refugees.  I can't count how many times my teachers told me "everyone wants to come to the US!". And the basic nationalism "the United States is the greatest country on Earth."

Of course when you actually examine the metrics, we fall short of many other developed nations in terms of social mobility, life expectancy, "happiness", corruption, racial equality gender pay and about a half dozen other things one would  expect us to be tops in if we were truly all those superlatives.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8126 on: June 01, 2021, 06:38:31 AM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

I feel that Trump has been riding on the unequalness of the opportunity that he was born with for quite some time.  :P

Troof. If we had a more meritocratic system, Trump would be a used car salesman on a corner lot in a suburb of a medium sized town.

I have to admit I think Trump would be a good used car salesman.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8127 on: June 01, 2021, 06:48:08 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

I saw an analysis of social mobility a few years ago, and the US is not very mobile.  Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all much more mobile, if I remember correctly.

This is part of the "Great Lie" that we are indoctrinated here with in the United States.  We are told repeatedly that the US is the "Land of Opportunity" where anyone can rise up to be successful through hard work and determination.  It's a message that's rarely questioned.  We are also taught that the United States is the one place that everyone else in the world wants to go, that it's the (not a) beacon of light for all refugees.  I can't count how many times my teachers told me "everyone wants to come to the US!". And the basic nationalism "the United States is the greatest country on Earth."

Of course when you actually examine the metrics, we fall short of many other developed nations in terms of social mobility, life expectancy, "happiness", corruption, racial equality gender pay and about a half dozen other things one would  expect us to be tops in if we were truly all those superlatives.

It wouldn't surprise me--at least pre-2017--if it turned out that many of those countries where people are happier (I have in mind Canada, Switzerland, Denmark) actually have much more restrictive immigration policies than the US. If we had the true libertarian "open borders" experiment, I imagine the population of the US would double in about 35 years.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8128 on: June 01, 2021, 06:54:29 AM »
I read this article recently that deals with similar thoughts: The American Dream is now in Denmark

I like this quote
Quote
The way I put it to my fellow rich people is this: there is a title that is more noble and consequential than ďGenerous Philanthropist,Ē and that title is ďHappy Taxpayer.Ē
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 08:18:45 AM by Moonwaves »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8129 on: June 01, 2021, 06:55:26 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

I saw an analysis of social mobility a few years ago, and the US is not very mobile.  Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all much more mobile, if I remember correctly.

This is part of the "Great Lie" that we are indoctrinated here with in the United States.  We are told repeatedly that the US is the "Land of Opportunity" where anyone can rise up to be successful through hard work and determination.  It's a message that's rarely questioned.  We are also taught that the United States is the one place that everyone else in the world wants to go, that it's the (not a) beacon of light for all refugees.  I can't count how many times my teachers told me "everyone wants to come to the US!". And the basic nationalism "the United States is the greatest country on Earth."

Of course when you actually examine the metrics, we fall short of many other developed nations in terms of social mobility, life expectancy, "happiness", corruption, racial equality gender pay and about a half dozen other things one would  expect us to be tops in if we were truly all those superlatives.

It wouldn't surprise me--at least pre-2017--if it turned out that many of those countries where people are happier (I have in mind Canada, Switzerland, Denmark) actually have much more restrictive immigration policies than the US. If we had the true libertarian "open borders" experiment, I imagine the population of the US would double in about 35 years.

Not a sociologist, but I would guess stronger social support networks, higher minimum wages, universal tax-funded health care, better parental leaves, and better-subsidized higher education also help.

Don't know the numbers offhand, but Canada fairly recently was taking more refugees than the US was on a per capita basis.  Refugees don't have to meet the standards that immigrants do, so they need more support to integrate into Canadian society.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8130 on: June 01, 2021, 07:07:57 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.

So is equal opportunity really the only thing we want the government doing? Real life in the US is actually far, far worse than a monopoly game. How can we say that the government provides "equal opportunity" when generational wealth is the #1 predictor of success? (ie. were your parents wealthy? Then you're more likely to also be wealthy)

That isn't equal opportunity. And giving people equal education isn't equal opportunity. (And we don't even do that).

The only way to create equal opportunity is to redistribute wealth in the country. Taking more from the rich, and distributing more to the poor. Either directly or through education; housing; UBI; etc.

I saw an analysis of social mobility a few years ago, and the US is not very mobile.  Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were all much more mobile, if I remember correctly.

This is part of the "Great Lie" that we are indoctrinated here with in the United States.  We are told repeatedly that the US is the "Land of Opportunity" where anyone can rise up to be successful through hard work and determination.  It's a message that's rarely questioned.  We are also taught that the United States is the one place that everyone else in the world wants to go, that it's the (not a) beacon of light for all refugees.  I can't count how many times my teachers told me "everyone wants to come to the US!". And the basic nationalism "the United States is the greatest country on Earth."

Of course when you actually examine the metrics, we fall short of many other developed nations in terms of social mobility, life expectancy, "happiness", corruption, racial equality gender pay and about a half dozen other things one would  expect us to be tops in if we were truly all those superlatives.

It wouldn't surprise me--at least pre-2017--if it turned out that many of those countries where people are happier (I have in mind Canada, Switzerland, Denmark) actually have much more restrictive immigration policies than the US. If we had the true libertarian "open borders" experiment, I imagine the population of the US would double in about 35 years.

Not a sociologist, but I would guess stronger social support networks, higher minimum wages, universal tax-funded health care, better parental leaves, and better-subsidized higher education also help.

Don't know the numbers offhand, but Canada fairly recently was taking more refugees than the US was on a per capita basis.  Refugees don't have to meet the standards that immigrants do, so they need more support to integrate into Canadian society.

It wasn't per capita (the US has roughly 11x the population of Canada).  Canada settled more refugees in absolute numbers than the US did in 2018 (Canada - 28,000 / US - 23,000 https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/19/canada-now-leads-the-world-in-refugee-resettlement-surpassing-the-u-s/)  This is noteworthy mostly because the US historically has been pretty good about taking in refugees, but under Trump that has very much ended.

2020 refugee targets (https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/layered-look-canadian-and-us-immigration):
Canada - 31,700
US - 18,000

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8131 on: June 01, 2021, 07:26:32 AM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

I feel that Trump has been riding on the unequalness of the opportunity that he was born with for quite some time.  :P

Troof. If we had a more meritocratic system, Trump would be a used car salesman on a corner lot in a suburb of a medium sized town.

I have to admit I think Trump would be a good used car salesman.

He could be selling cars like crazy if he wanted to. He has completely hoodwinked almost half the nation.  I still have relatives posting on facebook about how great Trump is, how much they miss him being president, and how they cannot wait until he wins again in 2024.  I see a disturbing amount of mental illness. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8132 on: June 01, 2021, 08:22:16 AM »
It seems many Trumpers and Q-anons believe that they won't be waiting until 2024...and that Trump will be reinstalled as President in August

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8133 on: June 01, 2021, 08:23:10 AM »
It seems many Trumpers and Q-anons believe that they won't be waiting until 2024...and that Trump will be reinstalled as President in August

 . . . and they've proven themselves willing to act upon that belief with the full support of the Republican party.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8134 on: June 01, 2021, 08:26:05 AM »
It seems many Trumpers and Q-anons believe that they won't be waiting until 2024...and that Trump will be reinstalled as President in August

August is the new March 4!

Alfred J Quack

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8135 on: June 01, 2021, 08:27:25 AM »
Small businesses, including farms, can be corporations. The advantage there is that if the founder or CEO dies the business does not fall under the estate tax

Some people want absolute control of their business while alive, but then wish it were not taxed as their personal assets upon death. Seems like a double standard to me. If a business is large enough, just form a private corporation, retain majority decision making but put your heirs on as joint owners.
Wouldn't work in my country because owners are taxed based on their shares, the company itself taxed on it's profits and the CEO on its income...

So if you move a percentage share of ownership to your heirs, they'd be taxed on receiving it (at least, that which is above the tax-free limit) and then taxed anually on being partial owners.

brandon1827

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8136 on: June 01, 2021, 08:33:43 AM »
It seems many Trumpers and Q-anons believe that they won't be waiting until 2024...and that Trump will be reinstalled as President in August

August is the new March 4!

And makes me wonder if it has anything to do with coming indictments from the State of New York...lol

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8137 on: June 01, 2021, 12:31:06 PM »
Yes. Back to the pile on on Trump. Does anyone else hate Trump?

I feel that Trump has been riding on the unequalness of the opportunity that he was born with for quite some time.  :P

Troof. If we had a more meritocratic system, Trump would be a used car salesman on a corner lot in a suburb of a medium sized town.

I have to admit I think Trump would be a good used car salesman.
* for a certain clientele.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8138 on: June 03, 2021, 09:58:03 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.
Since you mention monopoly - one famous experiment with this game is to give one player a very definite unfair advantage - like one more dice or double starting money.
After a short time they will become convinced that it is their skill and not the luck (of the better start) that made them win the game. And many will bully the unlucky for being bad players (or worse).

The same is happening in the real life everywhere.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8139 on: June 03, 2021, 11:16:15 AM »
Consider the game monopoly, all the players have equal opportunity (ok, player 1 has a small advantage; close enough). However the game ends with one player having all the money. An outcome that in real life, I hope we'd all be against.
Since you mention monopoly - one famous experiment with this game is to give one player a very definite unfair advantage - like one more dice or double starting money.
After a short time they will become convinced that it is their skill and not the luck (of the better start) that made them win the game. And many will bully the unlucky for being bad players (or worse).

The same is happening in the real life everywhere.

Great reference. The author of that study (Paul Piff) also examined crosswalks and type of car being driven past. I always suspected that luxury car drivers were more likely to not stop at a crosswalk.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8140 on: June 03, 2021, 12:56:35 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8141 on: June 03, 2021, 01:00:05 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8142 on: June 03, 2021, 01:20:28 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

Which social media sites were those, exactly?

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8143 on: June 03, 2021, 01:23:21 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

Which social media sites were those, exactly?

FB was one. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8144 on: June 03, 2021, 01:28:55 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

Which social media sites were those, exactly?

FB was one. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made

Exactly - Twitter, FB, YouTube have lifted their embargos on the whole lab conspiracy thing, so it's fine to discuss here, there, and everywhere...

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8145 on: June 03, 2021, 01:46:18 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

Which social media sites were those, exactly?

FB was one. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made

Exactly - Twitter, FB, YouTube have lifted their embargos on the whole lab conspiracy thing, so it's fine to discuss here, there, and everywhere...

Lest conservatives get an injury by patting themselves on the back, it should be noted that Trump's accusation was a guess, similar to the many other guesses he made (covid will go away by the end of April 2020 being one of them). It's not as if Trump had special knowledge of a lab leak, else he would've supplied the proof and stuck to the topic in order to win, as you noted.

Something about a clock comes to mind...

Tyler durden

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8146 on: June 03, 2021, 02:37:03 PM »
In line with the comments above, but on a different subject, I'm finding it unbearable that Republicans are feeling vindicated that there is now a serious investigation that it is plausible that the Covid 19 coronavirus was leaked from a Wuhan lab.  If Trump's government hadn't been incompetently throwing around unfounded allegations and had been remotely disciplined, this subject would have been his easy ride to re-election. 

Had Trump's 2020 government been up to the task to stay on this theory and not whiplash from conspiracy to conspiracy, we might not be any further along on beating the virus, but Trump would still be President and in a terrifyingly powerful position (e.g. I told you it was all 'fake news', China is worse than Russia, etc.)...

More than anything, this cements just how dysfunctional Trump was as President and that he should never be considered again for higher office.  With a massive advantage, he utterly failed.

I'm old enough to remember when talking about the lab leak would get you banned on certain social media sites/internet sites. Not sure if MMM was ever one of them. Careful what you say as these might not be approved thoughts your allowed to have yet.

Which social media sites were those, exactly?

FB was one. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/27/facebook-lifts-ban-on-posts-claiming-covid-19-was-man-made

Exactly - Twitter, FB, YouTube have lifted their embargos on the whole lab conspiracy thing, so it's fine to discuss here, there, and everywhere...

Lest conservatives get an injury by patting themselves on the back, it should be noted that Trump's accusation was a guess, similar to the many other guesses he made (covid will go away by the end of April 2020 being one of them). It's not as if Trump had special knowledge of a lab leak, else he would've supplied the proof and stuck to the topic in order to win, as you noted.

Something about a clock comes to mind...

The state department knew that those 3 researches from the Wuhan lab got sick in Nov 2019. The WSJ broke that recently. Certainly they were more informed than the rest of us about why we should be suspicious about the origins coming from the lab. Then the dots started to fall into place.

They had an investigation looking into it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/politics/biden-shut-down-trump-effort-coronavirus-chinese-lab/index.html

But Biden shut that down to have his team dig into it. So now, thank god, orange man wont get any credit. Cant be having that...

The time line is stunningly obvious but we weren't allowed to connect the dots.

In the summer of 2019, researchers at the WIV were creating mice with humanized lungs for experiments with undisclosed coronaviruses.
In September 2019 the online database of viruses kept at the WIV was taken down (which Dr. Shi would later lie about).
In November 2019 several researchers at the WIV became sick with a respiratory illness.
In December 2019 the first cases of COVID-19 are identified.


bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8147 on: June 03, 2021, 02:52:19 PM »
Lest conservatives get an injury by patting themselves on the back, it should be noted that Trump's accusation was a guess, similar to the many other guesses he made (covid will go away by the end of April 2020 being one of them). It's not as if Trump had special knowledge of a lab leak, else he would've supplied the proof and stuck to the topic in order to win, as you noted.

Something about a clock comes to mind...

The state department knew that those 3 researches from the Wuhan lab got sick in Nov 2019. The WSJ broke that recently. Certainly they were more informed than the rest of us about why we should be suspicious about the origins coming from the lab. Then the dots started to fall into place.

They had an investigation looking into it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/politics/biden-shut-down-trump-effort-coronavirus-chinese-lab/index.html

But Biden shut that down to have his team dig into it. So now, thank god, orange man wont get any credit. Cant be having that...

The time line is stunningly obvious but we weren't allowed to connect the dots.

In the summer of 2019, researchers at the WIV were creating mice with humanized lungs for experiments with undisclosed coronaviruses.
In September 2019 the online database of viruses kept at the WIV was taken down (which Dr. Shi would later lie about).
In November 2019 several researchers at the WIV became sick with a respiratory illness.
In December 2019 the first cases of COVID-19 are identified.

Good, we agree.

Trump started the investigation in late 2020, months after his claims and months after Pompeo stated there was "enormous evidence."

If he did have any evidence, and delayed an investigation, he's incompetent.

If he didn't have any evidence, he was just guessing and being a divisive ass.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 02:54:07 PM by bacchi »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8148 on: June 03, 2021, 02:54:31 PM »
That seems anecdotal, not ďstunningly obviousĒ.

Three people at a lab got sick in a province of over ten million. We canít even say they got sick with Covid. Happens everywhere, every year

What we donít know is far more than what we do. Hopefully we will learn more, but with China and the cultural war I kinda doubt we will learn any more. It might have been possible in early 2020... but now?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #8149 on: June 03, 2021, 03:01:26 PM »
Worth a listen if you have the time. Josh Rogin a reporter from the Washington Post was on the Joe Rogan podcast. The reporter is neck deep in this stuff and has been all over it. Very interesting listen.

One reason he gave as to why you didnt hear or see as much as expected from Trump / Pompeo going after China early. China said to them "shut up about the origin, or your not getting any masks" True or not I dont know, the reporter hates trump so I dont think he is carrying his water.