Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681794 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7500 on: February 20, 2021, 09:59:24 PM »
It's a bad look (like Chris Christie's beach day) but what was Cruz supposed to do? Hump a gas valve into an unfrozen state?

I don’t know, maybe he could man a phone bank for wellness checks and ensure that his constituents are safe, like his political rival, private citizen Beto O’Rourke, has been doing. Crazy, I know.

I hope it is very apparent to Texans that they backed the wrong senatorial horse in 2018.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7501 on: February 21, 2021, 04:41:03 AM »
It's a bad look (like Chris Christie's beach day) but what was Cruz supposed to do? Hump a gas valve into an unfrozen state?

Lead.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7502 on: February 21, 2021, 08:52:26 AM »
It's a bad look (like Chris Christie's beach day) but what was Cruz supposed to do? Hump a gas valve into an unfrozen state?

Lead.

Lead...exactly!

He could of at least PRETENDED he cared! Go thru the motions, put on a sad face, offer some fake phrases like: we understand, help is on the way, hand out some water, work in a soup kitchen. Find out from officials what he could do to help out.

No, he can't weld pipes or fix the windmills, but he could show up as a 'daddy' figure and tell the people they are going to be alright, things will be okay.

If he has no common sense on this, how is he able to be a senator?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 02:25:47 PM by Roadrunner53 »

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7503 on: February 21, 2021, 10:38:48 AM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7504 on: February 21, 2021, 11:24:10 AM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

This is the guy who Lindsay Graham said: “ If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7505 on: February 21, 2021, 12:57:43 PM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

This is the guy who Lindsay Graham said: “ If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you
This quote feels a bit less hyperbolic in 2021 given the events and following response to Jan 6.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7506 on: February 21, 2021, 03:23:25 PM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

This is the guy who Lindsay Graham said: “ If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you
This quote feels a bit less hyperbolic in 2021 given the events and following response to Jan 6.

Graham says a lot of things which are hyperbolic and intended for a laugh at the time, but have an odd tendency to be prophetic in hindsight.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7507 on: February 21, 2021, 08:03:46 PM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

This is the guy who Lindsay Graham said: “ If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you
This quote feels a bit less hyperbolic in 2021 given the events and following response to Jan 6.

Graham says a lot of things which are hyperbolic and intended for a laugh at the time, but have an odd tendency to be prophetic in hindsight.

Particularly when he perpetuates the outcome. He chuckled on the evening of 6 Jan saying "yeah it was an interesting ride, but it's time to move this thing along" as if he was on some weekend side project rather than helping instigate the biggest loss of voter confidence in US history.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 08:31:43 PM by Travis »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7508 on: February 22, 2021, 06:15:54 AM »
It's a bad look (like Chris Christie's beach day) but what was Cruz supposed to do? Hump a gas valve into an unfrozen state?

I don’t know, maybe he could man a phone bank for wellness checks and ensure that his constituents are safe, like his political rival, private citizen Beto O’Rourke, has been doing. Crazy, I know.

I hope it is very apparent to Texans that they backed the wrong senatorial horse in 2018.

Indeed an informal survey of my FB friends only turned up one person who voted for Cruz in 2018 who's criticizing this trip now (And he's certainly hedged, saying part of it is Cruz' political instincts should have stopped him). Aside from this friend, it's all people I know were behind O'Rourke.

Cruz has certainly seemed anti-democracy during the last three months, but he truly thinks that project is what a majority of Texans want him to do. No idea whether this Cancun trip would be enough to cost Cruz his seat in 2024. Frankly, it's a long time from now, and I think he'd have some way of responding to the accusation by saying, "My opponent is trying to play politics by attacking my family, when I was doing what it took to keep them safe." There are a lot of Texans who think that socialism threatens them more than a man protecting his family from winter cold.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 06:33:33 AM by talltexan »

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7509 on: February 22, 2021, 10:02:25 AM »
It's a bad look (like Chris Christie's beach day) but what was Cruz supposed to do? Hump a gas valve into an unfrozen state?

I don’t know, maybe he could man a phone bank for wellness checks and ensure that his constituents are safe, like his political rival, private citizen Beto O’Rourke, has been doing. Crazy, I know.

I hope it is very apparent to Texans that they backed the wrong senatorial horse in 2018.

Indeed an informal survey of my FB friends only turned up one person who voted for Cruz in 2018 who's criticizing this trip now (And he's certainly hedged, saying part of it is Cruz' political instincts should have stopped him). Aside from this friend, it's all people I know were behind O'Rourke.

Cruz has certainly seemed anti-democracy during the last three months, but he truly thinks that project is what a majority of Texans want him to do. No idea whether this Cancun trip would be enough to cost Cruz his seat in 2024. Frankly, it's a long time from now, and I think he'd have some way of responding to the accusation by saying, "My opponent is trying to play politics by attacking my family, when I was doing what it took to keep them safe." There are a lot of Texans who think that socialism threatens them more than a man protecting his family from winter cold.

It won't cost him his seat. It will barely even be remembered. 


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7510 on: February 22, 2021, 10:51:36 AM »
Are y'all forgetting he was in full support of the insurrection and still voted to not certify the votes even after the capitol was attacked?  The man is a greasy piece of shit that doesn't care about the citizens.  His actions and lack of empathy are not surprising.  His lack of awareness about how tone deaf his decisions are is also not surprising, because he simply doesn't give a fuck and thinks he can get away with it, and he will.  He's not up for reelection right now, and even if he was he would still likely win, so he doesn't care.

This is the guy who Lindsay Graham said: “ If you killed Ted Cruz on the floor of the Senate, and the trial was in the Senate, nobody would convict you

"I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz." -Al Franken

"Nasty guy. Now I know why he doesn’t have one endorsement from any of his colleagues." -Trump

Cruz has been a moral-less lying douche for far longer than this storm or Jan 6. What amazes me is that people still fall for his act.

Spiffy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7511 on: February 22, 2021, 11:09:50 AM »
I am a Texan who did not vote for him. We are not all stupid and we are not all Republicans. I saw a quote recently that said something like, "Texans are not Republicans. Texans are Gerrymandered and voter suppressed". It certainly feels true.

sui generis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7512 on: February 22, 2021, 11:32:44 AM »
I am a Texan who did not vote for him. We are not all stupid and we are not all Republicans. I saw a quote recently that said something like, "Texans are not Republicans. Texans are Gerrymandered and voter suppressed". It certainly feels true.

Yeah, I go back and forth with being mad at Texas for voting for him and realizing there are so many that are not onboard with this.  It's a tough state and will be tough to change to allow the folks that could change it to have a voice.  Another good point:
Quote
There are more Biden voters in Texas (5.26M) than there are in New York state (5.23M).

The "they voted for this" takes are bad on multiple levels, including the math.
https://twitter.com/aaronhuertas/status/1362959072916606976

I honestly don't know what to do about a state where you literally can't stop them passing laws making the voter suppression even worse.  It's all indirect, long-term stuff, like electing more blue down-ballot candidates and getting more money and attention needed that will enable suppressed people to vote more frequently and to care about voting instead of getting in a hopeless death spiral about it not mattering.  I hope there will be sustained attention to this so that Texas can indeed be the next Georgia.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7513 on: February 22, 2021, 11:43:14 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7514 on: February 22, 2021, 12:07:46 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.
Well, I'm sure the generators that stayed online appreciated the windfall.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7515 on: February 22, 2021, 06:47:26 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7516 on: February 22, 2021, 07:47:28 PM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.


sui generis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7517 on: February 22, 2021, 07:59:09 PM »
Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

And requires, as usual in our country, socializing the losses while all the profits were privatized.  The rich get richer...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7518 on: February 23, 2021, 04:27:08 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.
I don't know how cold it was in Texas, but we here in central Germany had -20°C and huge amount of snow 2 weeks ago and +19C yesterday - warmest February day ever I think. Talk about temperature extremes.

We also produce (flat, relativly sparse populated) more wind energy in our state than we use a lot of the time.
I didn't hear about our wind turbines having any problem with those -20C and 40cm of snow.

If it isn't just the usual Republican lying, I think what happened is that the wind turbines got shut down after the grid collapsed, because, you know, producing MWs of electricity that has nowhere to go is extremely unhealthy to the turbines.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7519 on: February 23, 2021, 04:30:39 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7520 on: February 23, 2021, 04:37:19 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7521 on: February 23, 2021, 05:01:06 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

jrhampt

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7522 on: February 23, 2021, 06:22:52 AM »
So, question about deregulation of utilities: CT is one of the states that deregulated electric utilities in the 1990s.  To me, this just means that I occasionally get letters in the mail asking if I want to switch to a cheaper electric provider, which I don't.  I'm not sure to what extent TX has deregulated their utilities compared to CT, but could what happened in TX happen in CT as a result of the deregulation of our electric utilities?

Psychstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7523 on: February 23, 2021, 06:48:00 AM »
So, question about deregulation of utilities: CT is one of the states that deregulated electric utilities in the 1990s.  To me, this just means that I occasionally get letters in the mail asking if I want to switch to a cheaper electric provider, which I don't.  I'm not sure to what extent TX has deregulated their utilities compared to CT, but could what happened in TX happen in CT as a result of the deregulation of our electric utilities?

I think (not an expert) one of the bigger issues in this instance is that Texas's electrical grid is independent. With that independence comes a lack of federal oversight. I assume Connecticut is tied into the large eastern North American grid, which is subject to rules and regulations of the federal government which should keep it running.

The feds came in and did an audit back in 2011 after the last storm and recommended winterizing efforts, but they have no authority to mandate Texas make those changes. It was on the quasi-private enterprises to decide whether or not winterizing was a good idea. When they saw that would mean spending a lot of money they were like "nah, bruh".

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7524 on: February 23, 2021, 07:08:21 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.

You're spot on about the windmills.

Indeed Texas had cold snaps in 2011 and 2018. But I would like to know how you became convinced those were colder than 2/15/21-2/16/21, because my recollection--at least for Travis County--is the opposite. If you're checking data, February 1989 also had an incredible cold snap.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7525 on: February 23, 2021, 07:37:24 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.

You're spot on about the windmills.

Indeed Texas had cold snaps in 2011 and 2018. But I would like to know how you became convinced those were colder than 2/15/21-2/16/21, because my recollection--at least for Travis County--is the opposite. If you're checking data, February 1989 also had an incredible cold snap.

Dec. 83 and 89 both registered 5 day periods with temperatures as cold - https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/02/22/texas-cold-snap-predictable-foreseeable/

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7526 on: February 23, 2021, 08:12:30 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7527 on: February 23, 2021, 08:15:47 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.

You're spot on about the windmills.

Indeed Texas had cold snaps in 2011 and 2018. But I would like to know how you became convinced those were colder than 2/15/21-2/16/21, because my recollection--at least for Travis County--is the opposite. If you're checking data, February 1989 also had an incredible cold snap.

Dec. 83 and 89 both registered 5 day periods with temperatures as cold - https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/02/22/texas-cold-snap-predictable-foreseeable/

Indeed, I looked back over the last half-century per NOAA available data, as indicated in my post.  Curious that two even more-extreme events occurred in the 1980s but nothing in the 90s or early 00s. Might have something to do with the NAO, not sure...

Broader point being that one [typically] builds and manages infrastructure with 20 and 100 year periods in mind (i.e. 'extreme' events). Clearly that hasn't happened here, and it refutes the narrative that this cold snap was "unprecedented" or even all that extreme. 

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7528 on: February 23, 2021, 08:17:51 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7529 on: February 23, 2021, 08:35:04 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).
Yes, anything with a captive market, such as electricity supplied through a single grid by big suppliers to individual people, is not "free market", it's an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition between the parties that make up the monopoly.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7530 on: February 23, 2021, 08:43:58 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).
Yes, anything with a captive market, such as electricity supplied through a single grid by big suppliers to individual people, is not "free market", it's an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition between the parties that make up the monopoly.

Electrical distribution is impossible to have a free market then.  So why are Republicans so keen to push an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7531 on: February 23, 2021, 08:53:40 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

...especially when you're able to jack rates up over 10,000% during those two week periods to those who still have power. Save money by not winterizing so you can also make a killing off of the outage! Confirmed, free market working as intended.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7532 on: February 23, 2021, 09:03:51 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).
Yes, anything with a captive market, such as electricity supplied through a single grid by big suppliers to individual people, is not "free market", it's an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition between the parties that make up the monopoly.

Electrical distribution is impossible to have a free market then.  So why are Republicans so keen to push an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition?
1.  They don't care about "good government", partly because "all government is bad" and partly because they got into politics for reasons other than being concerned about good government.

2.  Politics is their career and being a Republican politician means relying on contributions from big corporations that benefit financially from skewed market regulation.

3.  They believe Reagan's lies about "the market", despite evidence to the contrary.

4.  They are stupid, venal and selfish.

5.  All of the above.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7533 on: February 23, 2021, 09:27:48 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).
Yes, anything with a captive market, such as electricity supplied through a single grid by big suppliers to individual people, is not "free market", it's an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition between the parties that make up the monopoly.

Electrical distribution is impossible to have a free market then.  So why are Republicans so keen to push an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition?

Deregulation and eliminating government involvement in business is an end unto itself regardless of the circumstances or consequences for the GOP.  In most states there are just one or two utility providers. There's no such thing as "shopping around for the best deal." What little regulation that exists is all that keeps them from holding people and even state governments hostage.  There was a hurricane that hit the New England area a couple years ago. The utility for that area sent people electricity bills based on what they would have used had their town not been wiped off the map.

Sugaree

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7534 on: February 23, 2021, 10:37:13 AM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I completely agree that it was a failure driven by maximizing profits.  But it's false to assume that it is the fault of "free markets" - utilities are the antithesis of a free market system in the US (and/or Texas).
in other words, LennStar got the motivation right (maximizing profit) but the mechanism wrong (free market).
Yes, anything with a captive market, such as electricity supplied through a single grid by big suppliers to individual people, is not "free market", it's an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition between the parties that make up the monopoly.

Electrical distribution is impossible to have a free market then.  So why are Republicans so keen to push an unregulated monopoly with some internal competition?

Deregulation and eliminating government involvement in business is an end unto itself regardless of the circumstances or consequences for the GOP.  In most states there are just one or two utility providers. There's no such thing as "shopping around for the best deal." What little regulation that exists is all that keeps them from holding people and even state governments hostage.  There was a hurricane that hit the New England area a couple years ago. The utility for that area sent people electricity bills based on what they would have used had their town not been wiped off the map.


This is a good point.  I live in a state where there is a $5/month/kW fee for solar power.  We don't get quite enough sun for a completely off-grid system to be feasible so the power company charges a fee to offset the amount that you wouldn't be paying them for.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7535 on: February 23, 2021, 10:50:43 AM »
You are all making me really appreciate Hydro-Quebec and Hydro One (Ontario's main provider) plus my own provider, Hydro Ottawa.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7536 on: February 23, 2021, 11:12:26 AM »
You are all making me really appreciate Hydro-Quebec and Hydro One (Ontario's main provider) plus my own provider, Hydro Ottawa.

Made me think of this:


bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7537 on: February 23, 2021, 11:48:06 AM »
This is a good point.  I live in a state where there is a $5/month/kW fee for solar power.  We don't get quite enough sun for a completely off-grid system to be feasible so the power company charges a fee to offset the amount that you wouldn't be paying them for.

That seems punitive.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7538 on: February 23, 2021, 12:05:18 PM »
Apparently the turbines, along with most of the infrastructure at other power plants, simply weren't winterized because it was cheaper to not pay for that.
Free Market working.

It's just too expensive to prepare for those fringe cases. It's cheaper for the company to not have income from selling energy for 2 weeks every decade than to have to pay for all that.

Having a yearly outage of under 1 hour is something for socialist states.

Winterizing does not create outages, even for 1 hour, and this cannot be blamed on free market economics, as utilities in Texas are anything but. 
The failures certainly do seem to be related to profit and cost concerns, but that isn’t the same thing as the free market.

I think the implication was that striving for annual outages of <1 hr is for socialist states, and you should maximize profit by not winterizing and just suffering through 2 weeks of outages every decade.  Not that winterizing causes any outages; It's just socialist to not maximize profits, and you ain't no god damn socialist, are you?

I think Gov. Abbott will face a primary challenger who basically says this next year.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7539 on: February 23, 2021, 12:10:16 PM »
You are all making me really appreciate Hydro-Quebec and Hydro One (Ontario's main provider) plus my own provider, Hydro Ottawa.

Made me think of this:


Me too.  The difference was, we had never had and never expected 3 ice storms in 5 days.  An ice storm, sure, every so often.  That one took out a lot of Quebec, south-eastern Ontario, upper New York and part of New Hampshire.  We were out of power for 3 weeks, but then being able to live without power for a day or so is part of winter.  3 weeks was a bit much.  It gave new meaning to "keeping the home fires burning".  Especially when a house near us burned to the ground. 

I was impressed with Ottawa Hydro when a tornado* took out a substation a few summers ago.  That took out power to half the city.  They had everything rerouted fairly quickly.

*Yes we get tornadoes, and micro-burst heavy winds, and earthquakes.  About all we don't get is hurricanes, and given that Toronto has had them, and the climate is more unstable now, it is just a matter of time.  South-eastern Ontario, where the weather and climate are always interesting.

Plina

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7540 on: February 24, 2021, 11:16:27 AM »
It'll be interesting to see how Texan Republicans explain the total failure of the profit driven electrical grid . . . and fix it without any of that pesky government overreach.

It's all AOC's fault according to them. They're cherry-picking data to claim it's all because the wind farms stopped working. It's bullshit because a) a snowstorm shouldn't shut down wind turbines unless they were built by morons, b) other power generation assets stopped working, and c) Texas deliberately isn't a part of the national grid so they're on their own. But it's all definitely the Democrats and green-energy's fault.

And about that profit-driven grid: the state is having to bail out some customers because the metering plan they were on shot up their bills by a thousand percent. This is what "deregulation" of the power grid looks like. In 2000 it allowed Enron to strangle California for an entire summer.  It's the same story whether it's health insurance or internet service providers. Deregulation when there's only one or two options is a bad idea.

I’m flabbergasted anytime I hear someone suggest Texas’s problems stemmed from it being “too cold” for wind turbines.  I lived in Québec for a decade - it’s chock full of turbines along its coast and they work just fine at much colder temperatures.  One of the global leaders in wind energy is Norway. Go figure.

Also frustrating is hearing about how “Texas never gets cold like that”.  In the last 50 years there have been at least five cold-snaps as cold (and two even colder) than what just happened.  Certainly not frequent but also not unprecedented. If you’re building a system like the electrical grid one should certainly prepare for events which occur every decade or so.  This isn’t even “100-year” territory.
I don't know how cold it was in Texas, but we here in central Germany had -20°C and huge amount of snow 2 weeks ago and +19C yesterday - warmest February day ever I think. Talk about temperature extremes.

We also produce (flat, relativly sparse populated) more wind energy in our state than we use a lot of the time.
I didn't hear about our wind turbines having any problem with those -20C and 40cm of snow.

If it isn't just the usual Republican lying, I think what happened is that the wind turbines got shut down after the grid collapsed, because, you know, producing MWs of electricity that has nowhere to go is extremely unhealthy to the turbines.

In Sweden the large parks with windturbines are built in the northern parts were -40 C in winter is not uncommon. The biggest with app 1100 turbines is built in north. The turbines produce most during the autumn and winter months so this seems more like a problem with the operator then the turbines per see.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7541 on: February 24, 2021, 04:11:59 PM »
We have wind turbines here in Michigan. If they froze every time it snowed, they'd be useless 6 months of the year.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7542 on: February 25, 2021, 08:06:23 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7543 on: February 25, 2021, 08:08:09 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.
The wild west.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7544 on: February 25, 2021, 08:17:08 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.
The wild west.

Could be worse . . . the closest country to a Libertarian paradise on Earth right now is Somalia.

ministashy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7545 on: February 25, 2021, 08:19:02 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.

It would look like the Gilded Age.  Which despite its name, was not good for anyone who wasn't a Rockefeller, Carnegie and the like.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7546 on: February 25, 2021, 08:58:43 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.

Well we have several decades of Republican-wish list policies to draw from
The social safety net would be smaller, and unavailable to the chronically poor
Taxes - and in particular capitol gains and real estate - would be lower
The 'floor' for taxes would be raised (i.e. far fewer would pay "no taxes at all!")
There would likely be no estate tax
Religious exemptions would proliferate (school choice, health care, etc)
Social Security would become privatized, and essentially become another IRA 'bucket'
Mass-transit projects would be cut
More self-regulation of businesses (less oversight from the EPA, OSHA, DOL)
Medicare and Medicaid would be disbursed through block-grants
...


nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7547 on: February 25, 2021, 09:57:58 AM »
Back on topic: Things that outrage Trump

Prosecutors from NY obtained financial records for Donald Trump on Monday,  just hours after the US Supreme Court denied Trump’s last-ditch effort to keep the records private.

The 'millions' of pages of documents, sources say, contain Trump’s tax returns spanning from January 2011 to August 2019, as well as financial statements, engagement agreements, documents relating to the preparation and review of tax returns, and work papers and communications related to the tax returns.

This is going to be one hell of a forensic accounting project.  I'm guessing it'll keep the SDNY office busy for a few years at least.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7548 on: February 25, 2021, 11:25:07 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.

They had that in 2017-2018.

The problem wasn't what they passed. It was that they approach governing as performative/expressive rather than from a skills/problem-solving perspective. Republicans take a light touch to regulation and appoint Constitutionalist judges and take the W, while people like Dan Crenshaw and Ted Cruz make headlines for what they say.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7549 on: February 25, 2021, 11:44:47 AM »
Makes me genuinely appreciate TVA.

So what would the USA look like if the Republicans were given free reign to pass whatever legislation they wanted?

Social, business, taxes, and politics.

They had that in 2017-2018.

They did, but even most Rs would say they squandered that opportunity on the tax overhaul and a whole bunch of noisy distractions (e.g. the 'muslim ban that's not a ban', firing Flynn and Comey, 'The Russia Thing', petty and unproductive EO fights with everyone from gold-star parents to NFL players) rather than more substantive legislation (e.g. complete failure to repeal or replace the ACA, no infrastruture bill, no immigration reform).

That time period was remarkable mostrly because so little got done despite the Rs controlling all leavers of the federal government and a conservative-leaning court.