Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 500411 times)

the_fixer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6950 on: January 12, 2021, 11:05:05 AM »
Have you heard the audio of the voicemail he left Tuberville? It's fucking creepy in its single-mindedness and tone. "Just delay it. Just object to every state."

Which leads me to ask - what good does a delay do? Is this just drama for the 24 hr news cycle or is there a judge somewhere trying to make up his mind about whether to favor Trump during all this?

I hope this wrecks a bunch of Republican careers and puts a few at the top into jail. Trump, Guilliani, etc.

There are only two general options that I see:
1) Desperate grabbing at straws. Hoping that a miracle will present itself if given just a bit more time and the certification is delayed.
2) An actual conspiracy that depended on subverting the certification.

If 2, that needs to be rooted out and made an example of. America has a troubling history of support for "strong" leaders who support mostly the "order" part and not so much the "law" part. A lot of that has an overlap with established social structures and needing to be able to blame another group for problems. There is a lot of structural racism in that. I've been listening to the Slow Burn deep dives into the Nixon impeachment and also the season on David Duke. The patterns that emerge about public opinion and like for someone who will say what the public cannot say in polite company is apparent. The broad dismissal of the Capitol riots and specifically the whataboutism of saying "oh, but this was okay form BLM?" is entirely consistent with this thread in American society. The Capitol riots are just a symptom of a much more difficult to address undercurrent that poses some real threats to our society.
Here is my feeling / view and why I have been concerned about it for a while.

The tactics are very similar to those used to hack / attack / test security of a company or infrastructure.

Brute force attack - Phishing - Social engineering ETC

They have covered all of the bases and have done an amazing job of Injecting / exposing flaws in the various systems thus creating a framework/ blueprint for others to follow / build upon.

Maybe that is just my minds way of sorting out what I am seeing by comparing it to situations I am familiar with but it sure seems like they hacked the government and almost brought the system down.


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John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6951 on: January 12, 2021, 11:35:52 AM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.


In November 2020, during the dedication of a military museum, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, reaffirmed the military's commitment to the Constitution. 


"We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual...We take an oath to the Constitution."

Who was General  Milley thinking of when he said this?

The answer to my rhetorical question is that he was thinking of President Trump.
 
"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price."  General Milley
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 11:51:13 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6952 on: January 12, 2021, 11:49:58 AM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.


In November 2020, during the dedication of a military museum, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, reaffirmed the military's commitment to the Constitution. 


"We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual."

Who was General  Milley thinking of when he said this?

The answer to my rhetorical question is that he was thinking of President Trump
 
"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price."  General Milley

You have a faith I do not share.  The military, and in particular the brass, are committed to obeying their commanding officer. As long as that is Trump, they will find it difficult not to carry out his orders.  As you said, they take an oath to teh constititon, and that binds them to DJT as their commander in chief.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6953 on: January 12, 2021, 12:16:13 PM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.

This is the same military leadership that has had no problems continuing to operate an illegal torture facility in Guantanamo Bay for almost 20 years . . . where civilians (including children) from around the world are held without trial or evidence of crime.  The one where murder, rape, waterboarding, starvation, force feeding, sleep deprivation, etc. have been routinely used.

There is no historical precedent of the US military refusing unlawful orders.  Quite the opposite.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6954 on: January 12, 2021, 12:17:13 PM »
I'd have a lot more faith about people at all levels doing the right thing and not following trump's orders if I hadn't watched him literally incite insurrection and attempt a coup less than a week ago. 

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6955 on: January 12, 2021, 12:30:22 PM »
Cracks are showing. The alt-right is arguing among themselves, looking for a new direction.

Quote
I can think of a couple of lawyers at this point who are responsible for almost all the bullshit hopium that has permeated this site for the last two months and who, despite taking our donations, delivered not a single thing toward Trump's victory.

People lost focus because they trusted Lin Wood and Sydney Powell more than they trusted reality. And now, here we are, with WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE wondering how we could have possibly lost when we had Delta Force fighting the CIA for a magical server in Germany.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6956 on: January 12, 2021, 01:52:39 PM »
I'm hearing from many long-time Republicans who are done with Trump. Cannot believe he deteriorated so badly in the last sixty days. I think they genuinely want to run out the clock to Jan. 20, which would feel so...disappointing to a whole lot of us.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6957 on: January 12, 2021, 01:55:29 PM »
I'm hearing from many long-time Republicans who are done with Trump. Cannot believe he deteriorated so badly in the last sixty days. I think they genuinely want to run out the clock to Jan. 20, which would feel so...disappointing to a whole lot of us.

Trump has not done anything different in the last 60 days than he did in the previous 4 years, and little different than what he was doing in the 8 years before that.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6958 on: January 12, 2021, 02:00:12 PM »
Maybe too many in the GOP were holding out hope that he would change and finally become “presidential”. Now that he is a lame duck the hope is gone (for them)

Of course to anyone paying attention it was confirmed that trump couldn’t be the prototypical executive in the first few months of his presidency (if not sooner).

dividendman

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6959 on: January 12, 2021, 02:05:10 PM »
I'm hearing from many long-time Republicans who are done with Trump. Cannot believe he deteriorated so badly in the last sixty days. I think they genuinely want to run out the clock to Jan. 20, which would feel so...disappointing to a whole lot of us.

It's relative easy to get behind a "winner". Now he's a loser. Not only for himself but for senate republicans. Let's see if the trumpists maintain sway in the primaries.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6960 on: January 12, 2021, 02:36:05 PM »
I'm hearing from many long-time Republicans who are done with Trump. Cannot believe he deteriorated so badly in the last sixty days. I think they genuinely want to run out the clock to Jan. 20, which would feel so...disappointing to a whole lot of us.

It's relative easy to get behind a "winner". Now he's a loser. Not only for himself but for senate republicans. Let's see if the trumpists maintain sway in the primaries.

Trump has made a career getting people to pay a premium over similar gigs and services by attaching his name (his “brand”) to it. It will be interesting to see if the market continues to allow him to charge such a premium after he goes down as the first president since Wilson to lose the house and senate and White House in four years. Right now he looks more like the loser and destroyer of Republican power. Time will tell if it gets better or worse for him.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6961 on: January 12, 2021, 02:40:47 PM »
Maybe too many in the GOP were holding out hope that he would change and finally become “presidential”. Now that he is a lame duck the hope is gone (for them)

Of course to anyone paying attention it was confirmed that trump couldn’t be the prototypical executive in the first few months of his presidency (if not sooner).

If he incites just three or four more violent insurrections I am going to seriously reconsider supporting him. 

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6962 on: January 12, 2021, 02:51:08 PM »
Here is my feeling / view and why I have been concerned about it for a while.

The tactics are very similar to those used to hack / attack / test security of a company or infrastructure.

Brute force attack - Phishing - Social engineering ETC

They have covered all of the bases and have done an amazing job of Injecting / exposing flaws in the various systems thus creating a framework/ blueprint for others to follow / build upon.

Maybe that is just my minds way of sorting out what I am seeing by comparing it to situations I am familiar with but it sure seems like they hacked the government and almost brought the system down.

Who benefits from such a breach? Russians? Chinese? Trump (had he won his second election)?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I've long felt Trump and the GOP were testing to see what they could get away with but I saw as it a chance to consolidate the power of his supporters through lies and rumors. To continue to control as much of the gov't as they could using nay method. Also, their business allies would be free to do whatever they wanted - unsafe workplaces, pollute, steal ideas or spy on their competitors, etc. Choose who could line up at the gov't corporate handout trough. Put minorities back into second or third place again.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 02:55:00 PM by Just Joe »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6963 on: January 12, 2021, 03:08:38 PM »
Maybe too many in the GOP were holding out hope that he would change and finally become “presidential”. Now that he is a lame duck the hope is gone (for them)

Of course to anyone paying attention it was confirmed that trump couldn’t be the prototypical executive in the first few months of his presidency (if not sooner).

If he incites just three or four more violent insurrections I am going to seriously reconsider supporting him.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6964 on: January 12, 2021, 03:11:20 PM »
I actually think it's just Republicans trying to see what* they can do to maintain power.

*Aside from organizing and persuading with the goal to build majority coalitions of voters, they don't seem to want to go that route for some reason

dividendman

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6965 on: January 12, 2021, 03:40:54 PM »
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 03:42:33 PM by dividendman »

Dee18

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6966 on: January 12, 2021, 04:17:55 PM »
McConnell and other Republicans want Trump unable to run for president in 4 years.  And they want the Republican Party to be able to successfully raise funds now. Impeaching Trump would help with both.

the_fixer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6967 on: January 12, 2021, 04:48:50 PM »
Here is my feeling / view and why I have been concerned about it for a while.

The tactics are very similar to those used to hack / attack / test security of a company or infrastructure.

Brute force attack - Phishing - Social engineering ETC

They have covered all of the bases and have done an amazing job of Injecting / exposing flaws in the various systems thus creating a framework/ blueprint for others to follow / build upon.

Maybe that is just my minds way of sorting out what I am seeing by comparing it to situations I am familiar with but it sure seems like they hacked the government and almost brought the system down.

Who benefits from such a breach? Russians? Chinese? Trump (had he won his second election)?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I've long felt Trump and the GOP were testing to see what they could get away with but I saw as it a chance to consolidate the power of his supporters through lies and rumors. To continue to control as much of the gov't as they could using nay method. Also, their business allies would be free to do whatever they wanted - unsafe workplaces, pollute, steal ideas or spy on their competitors, etc. Choose who could line up at the gov't corporate handout trough. Put minorities back into second or third place again.

Trump would have been the immediate/ direct beneficiary as well as those in his circle. I truly think they were trying to find a way to keep him in his seat.

What happened will certainly benefit some countries and degrade the status of the US across the world but I do not think that was what they were trying to accomplish.

Who will it benefit in the future? Who knows who will find a way to exploit the vulnerabilities that this has exposed.


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bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6968 on: January 12, 2021, 05:06:05 PM »

Trump would have been the immediate/ direct beneficiary as well as those in his circle. I truly think they were trying to find a way to keep him in his seat.

What happened will certainly benefit some countries and degrade the status of the US across the world but I do not think that was what they were trying to accomplish.

Who will it benefit in the future? Who knows who will find a way to exploit the vulnerabilities that this has exposed.

A lot of the vulnerabilities make Congress useless.

Who needs cabinet confirmations if acting heads can do the same job until they get sued?

Government jobs can be reclassified as a political appointee position, making it easier to fire department leaders when they stray from the message.

Congressionally designated money can be moved around for pet projects. Need to build a border wall? That's the same as military housing!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6969 on: January 12, 2021, 05:14:22 PM »

Trump would have been the immediate/ direct beneficiary as well as those in his circle. I truly think they were trying to find a way to keep him in his seat.

What happened will certainly benefit some countries and degrade the status of the US across the world but I do not think that was what they were trying to accomplish.

Who will it benefit in the future? Who knows who will find a way to exploit the vulnerabilities that this has exposed.

A lot of the vulnerabilities make Congress useless.

Who needs cabinet confirmations if acting heads can do the same job until they get sued?

Government jobs can be reclassified as a political appointee position, making it easier to fire department leaders when they stray from the message.

Congressionally designated money can be moved around for pet projects. Need to build a border wall? That's the same as military housing!

Well there's a limit on the "acting" secretaries, that they must be approved within x days. There are a whole series of lawsuits around administration decisions made by basically "expired" acting secretaries. It slows down what an administration is able to do, what it can accomplish, and the efficacy of that administration's government.

The damage Trump's secretaries were able to do was severely limited by their "acting" statuses and a significant number of their decisions have been undone by the courts.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6970 on: January 12, 2021, 05:24:01 PM »

Trump would have been the immediate/ direct beneficiary as well as those in his circle. I truly think they were trying to find a way to keep him in his seat.

What happened will certainly benefit some countries and degrade the status of the US across the world but I do not think that was what they were trying to accomplish.

Who will it benefit in the future? Who knows who will find a way to exploit the vulnerabilities that this has exposed.

A lot of the vulnerabilities make Congress useless.

Who needs cabinet confirmations if acting heads can do the same job until they get sued?

Government jobs can be reclassified as a political appointee position, making it easier to fire department leaders when they stray from the message.

Congressionally designated money can be moved around for pet projects. Need to build a border wall? That's the same as military housing!

Well there's a limit on the "acting" secretaries, that they must be approved within x days. There are a whole series of lawsuits around administration decisions made by basically "expired" acting secretaries. It slows down what an administration is able to do, what it can accomplish, and the efficacy of that administration's government.

The damage Trump's secretaries were able to do was severely limited by their "acting" statuses and a significant number of their decisions have been undone by the courts.

Only the post-expiry decisions are under question, right?

Trump mostly figured out how to circumvent the nomination issue: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/04/trump-acting-secretaries-dhs-fvra-senate-reform.html

Quote
But the statute’s generous grace period—210 days—can be extended, perhaps indefinitely, so long as the president nominates someone to hold that office on a permanent basis, even if the Senate never acts on the nomination.
[...]
Of course, as with this week’s DHS contretemps, the president could simply fire the first assistant and all of the other Senate-confirmed officers in an agency in order to create conditions that would allow him to name someone else.


Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6971 on: January 12, 2021, 05:48:25 PM »
Have you heard the audio of the voicemail he left Tuberville? It's fucking creepy in its single-mindedness and tone. "Just delay it. Just object to every state."

Which leads me to ask - what good does a delay do? Is this just drama for the 24 hr news cycle or is there a judge somewhere trying to make up his mind about whether to favor Trump during all this?

I hope this wrecks a bunch of Republican careers and puts a few at the top into jail. Trump, Guilliani, etc.

The "plan" if you can call it that was to get the elections turned back over to the state legislatures, some of which seemed like they might consider changing the electors. This entire fiasco was the result of these folks having absolutely no idea how our laws actually work.

-Each state has its own election laws and carries them out with almost no influence or involvement from Congress. Some of the lawsuits forgot this and did a poor copy/paste job not understanding the jurisdiction they were in. Many of Trump's lawsuits, especially the ones Guilliani or Powell touched were absolute shit as far as competence goes.
-Out of nearly 60 lawsuits, only one or two even used the word "fraud" because to make such a claim without evidence is against lawyer ethics codes.  Everyone seems to be forgetting that while Trump and Giuliani keep using that word, nobody in a courtroom has.
-Most states do not have laws on the books that would even allow a judge to declare an election void. The lawyers saying "pretty please because Karen swears she saw a thing" is definitely not grounds for such a step. Note that in Bush v Gore, the US Supreme Court simply said "stop recounting." They didn't throw out any votes.
-Trump thought he could stop governors from certifying their elections by willpower alone. Ducey not taking that phone call probably stopped Trump from committing a felony on live television.
-Trump, Giuliani, and their supporters believed that 6 Jan was supposed to be some kind of debate. It's a formality. The Constitution does not grant Congress any powers to reject or change the outcome of states' elections. We don't have an election for President. We have 50. And like I said in #1, Congress doesn't get to interfere. Every election has members of Congress oppose some certifications. It's symbolic. There's no authority to actually do anything about them. They thought that if enough states were debated and members rejected them, then they'd get returned to the state legislatures for some kind of do-over. There's no such thing. There is a clause in the Constitution that puts the vote to Congress if nobody gets enough electoral votes, but that wasn't going to happen here either.
-If somehow any of this came to pass inside Congress, it would immediately go to the Supreme Court and you've have a 9-person collective facepalm. 

*And under none of these hair-brained schemes were they going to get to 270 votes.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 06:19:10 PM by Travis »

jinga nation

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6972 on: January 12, 2021, 06:08:38 PM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.


In November 2020, during the dedication of a military museum, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, reaffirmed the military's commitment to the Constitution. 


"We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual."

Who was General  Milley thinking of when he said this?

The answer to my rhetorical question is that he was thinking of President Trump
 
"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price."  General Milley

You have a faith I do not share.  The military, and in particular the brass, are committed to obeying their commanding officer. As long as that is Trump, they will find it difficult not to carry out his orders.  As you said, they take an oath to teh constititon, and that binds them to DJT as their commander in chief.

The uniformed and ex-military in my work area, mostly enlisted, believe the 4-stars, JCOS, etc. are all political appointees and not real soldiers. They ignore the fact the top brass were promoted through the ranks, went to AFA or WP, etc. I heard this today. Their mental gymnastics was mind-boggling world championship level. And they were attributing Bernie's policies to Biden.
I can't even.... so I end up listening to hardcore electronica/house/dubstep to drown it out.
Worked for 3 years under the prospective SecDef. Good man. (I also worked under Mattis when he was in charge of the same command as Austin was later.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 06:10:49 PM by jinga nation »

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6973 on: January 12, 2021, 06:21:03 PM »

I can't even.... so I end up listening to hardcore electronica/house/dubstep to drown it out.


I usually listen to alternative and Nu Metal, but the room shuts up real quick when I switch to 1930s jazz.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6974 on: January 12, 2021, 07:50:54 PM »

Trump would have been the immediate/ direct beneficiary as well as those in his circle. I truly think they were trying to find a way to keep him in his seat.

What happened will certainly benefit some countries and degrade the status of the US across the world but I do not think that was what they were trying to accomplish.

Who will it benefit in the future? Who knows who will find a way to exploit the vulnerabilities that this has exposed.

A lot of the vulnerabilities make Congress useless.

Who needs cabinet confirmations if acting heads can do the same job until they get sued?

Government jobs can be reclassified as a political appointee position, making it easier to fire department leaders when they stray from the message.

Congressionally designated money can be moved around for pet projects. Need to build a border wall? That's the same as military housing!

Well there's a limit on the "acting" secretaries, that they must be approved within x days. There are a whole series of lawsuits around administration decisions made by basically "expired" acting secretaries. It slows down what an administration is able to do, what it can accomplish, and the efficacy of that administration's government.

The damage Trump's secretaries were able to do was severely limited by their "acting" statuses and a significant number of their decisions have been undone by the courts.

And record turnover. 5 SECDEFs, 4 Chiefs of Staff, 5 National Security Advisors, and 6 Directors of Homeland Security in a single term. And those are just the cabinet positions off the top of my head. State Dept, WH Communications, Energy, Labor, a couple service secretaries, and Immigration amongst others. The SES/career GS employee cadre spent the last four years in absolute chaos and Trump declared that he preferred it this way. He broke the record for cabinet turnover before the summer of 2019.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6975 on: January 12, 2021, 08:05:34 PM »
The ground does feel like it's shifted somewhat. While I remain hopeful, I also remember how much of a "ground-shifting" moment it felt like we went through as that Ukraine phone call came to light, but only Justin Amash and Mitt Romney were peeled away from the sitting President of their party.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6976 on: January 12, 2021, 08:26:26 PM »
The ground does feel like it's shifted somewhat. While I remain hopeful, I also remember how much of a "ground-shifting" moment it felt like we went through as that Ukraine phone call came to light, but only Justin Amash and Mitt Romney were peeled away from the sitting President of their party.

If they don't feel it'll hurt them in two years, they won't care.  There are already a core group of Republicans trying to shift the narrative back to "we're here to protect you from the socialists" business as usual. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6977 on: January 12, 2021, 08:39:01 PM »
There seems to be a growing sense of republicans jumping ship. Trump continues to be in denial. Liz Cheney (#3 House Republican) is pro-impeachment. McConnell is for the impeachment process, though no statement on how he’ll vote yet. The DOJ had a fantastic press conference today where they laid out their law enforcement process for pursuing Capitol rioters, and sedition charges are on the table. FBI is making visits to people agitating for future action, allowing for First Amendment speech but letting people know they know.

The Forbes statement about Trump’s communications enablers/liars is a major shot. Political funding is being pulled back. Parker was hacked and archived before it was pulled off AWS. The Trump brand is being abandoned. This is surely an interesting time.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6978 on: January 12, 2021, 08:52:32 PM »
Trump’s final instructions to Pence on Jan 6. From the NYT:

Mr. Trump was enraged that Mr. Pence was refusing to try to overturn the election. In a series of meetings, the president had pressed relentlessly, alternately cajoling and browbeating him. Finally, just before Mr. Pence headed to the Capitol to oversee the electoral vote count last Wednesday, Mr. Trump called the vice president’s residence to push one last time.

“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6979 on: January 12, 2021, 08:58:39 PM »
That's got to sting a bit.

Walmart, Disney suspend contributions to U.S. lawmakers who opposed Biden certification

They'd better hope that Sheldon Adelson remembered them in his will.

Sandi_k

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6980 on: January 12, 2021, 09:32:16 PM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.


In November 2020, during the dedication of a military museum, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, reaffirmed the military's commitment to the Constitution. 


"We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual."

Who was General  Milley thinking of when he said this?

The answer to my rhetorical question is that he was thinking of President Trump
 
"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price."  General Milley

You have a faith I do not share.  The military, and in particular the brass, are committed to obeying their commanding officer. As long as that is Trump, they will find it difficult not to carry out his orders.  As you said, they take an oath to teh constititon, and that binds them to DJT as their commander in chief.

An interesting read on the rank-and-file in terms of agreement with Trump's worldview...

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/11/military-right-wing-extremism-457861?fbclid=IwAR0bAQ1v5i2XF0csxB9UmBa4Q-FE3UG6a5l-CxocdTT0KCj7Fb00-oCmAVc

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6981 on: January 13, 2021, 01:30:32 AM »


 Because Trump isn't going silently into the night, and he's still got way too many unilateral powers (EOs, pardons, commander in chief, and the attention that goes with all that), and he's proven over and over that he'll strike out at anyone if he feels snubbed, even if its against the common good or moral decency.

I am  not  concerned about Trump's wrongful exercise of his commander-in-chief power because military leadership is hypercognizant of his unbalance such that they will refuse to execute any order he issues if it has the merest semblance of an unlawful order.


In November 2020, during the dedication of a military museum, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, reaffirmed the military's commitment to the Constitution. 


"We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual."

Who was General  Milley thinking of when he said this?

The answer to my rhetorical question is that he was thinking of President Trump
 
"We are unique among militaries. We do not take an oath to a king or a queen, a tyrant or a dictator. We do not take an oath to an individual. No, we do not take an oath to a country, a tribe or religion. We take an oath to the Constitution. And every soldier that is represented in this museum, every sailor, airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman, each of us will protect and defend that document, regardless of personal price."  General Milley

You have a faith I do not share.  The military, and in particular the brass, are committed to obeying their commanding officer. As long as that is Trump, they will find it difficult not to carry out his orders.  As you said, they take an oath to teh constititon, and that binds them to DJT as their commander in chief.

An interesting read on the rank-and-file in terms of agreement with Trump's worldview...

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/11/military-right-wing-extremism-457861?fbclid=IwAR0bAQ1v5i2XF0csxB9UmBa4Q-FE3UG6a5l-CxocdTT0KCj7Fb00-oCmAVc

If you want to call it a silver lining, the US military on the whole is trending to the left and the "military vote" this election cycle was around 52% for Biden. It's usually a crushing majority for Republicans.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6982 on: January 13, 2021, 04:28:58 AM »
Another ‘outrage’:

According to a WH source, Trump is “bothered” by the impending second impeachment, but  he is completely “gutted” by the loss of hosting the PGA tour in 2022 at the Trump Bedminister course in NJ.  It’s ‘an order of magnitude’ more severe, and he has spent more of his time and focus trying to reverse the PGA decision than with GOP lawmakers who will vote on his impeachment.

To the end he cares more about his business than he does about his Presidency. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6983 on: January 13, 2021, 04:46:01 AM »
“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”
I certainly would prefer to be called a useful pet than to be called a military-fanatic shortsighted nut.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6984 on: January 13, 2021, 07:00:41 AM »
“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”
I certainly would prefer to be called a useful pet than to be called a military-fanatic shortsighted nut.

Actually Trump reverse logiced this.  Biden would be a pussy (has Trump ever met a cat? They are not pushovers) to give in to T**** and a Patriot to do the oath-following activity of doing his job properly.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6985 on: January 13, 2021, 07:17:00 AM »
“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”
I certainly would prefer to be called a useful pet than to be called a military-fanatic shortsighted nut.

Actually Trump reverse logiced this.  Biden would be a pussy (has Trump ever met a cat? They are not pushovers) to give in to T**** and a Patriot to do the oath-following activity of doing his job properly.

You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6986 on: January 13, 2021, 07:26:19 AM »


You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.
let's not bring homosexuality into this thread for the sake of debasing someone we don't like, ok? That's falls into homophobic territory, and has no place here.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6987 on: January 13, 2021, 07:35:27 AM »


You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.
let's not bring homosexuality into this thread for the sake of debasing someone we don't like, ok? That's falls into homophobic territory, and has no place here.

Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?  That's not something that I believe, and I'm surprised to hear it from you.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6988 on: January 13, 2021, 07:43:46 AM »


You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.
let's not bring homosexuality into this thread for the sake of debasing someone we don't like, ok? That's falls into homophobic territory, and has no place here.

Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?  That's not something that I believe, and I'm surprised to hear it from you.

I'm asking you to please stop it.  It's clear you are using "homoerotic emotion" as an insult to Trump/Pence.  It's a erudite way of saying 'faggot' and meaning it as an insult.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6989 on: January 13, 2021, 07:44:53 AM »


You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.
let's not bring homosexuality into this thread for the sake of debasing someone we don't like, ok? That's falls into homophobic territory, and has no place here.

Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?  That's not something that I believe, and I'm surprised to hear it from you.

I'm asking you to please stop it.  It's clear you are using "homoerotic emotion" as an insult to Trump/Pence.  It's a erudite way of saying 'faggot' and meaning it as an insult.

I don't see homosexuality as something insulting, sorry.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6990 on: January 13, 2021, 07:53:34 AM »


You're both wrong.  It clearly means that Trump wants to grab Pence in an effusive show of homoerotic emotion.
let's not bring homosexuality into this thread for the sake of debasing someone we don't like, ok? That's falls into homophobic territory, and has no place here.

Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?  That's not something that I believe, and I'm surprised to hear it from you.

I'm asking you to please stop it.  It's clear you are using "homoerotic emotion" as an insult to Trump/Pence.  It's a erudite way of saying 'faggot' and meaning it as an insult.

I don't see homosexuality as something insulting, sorry.
Then please do not use it as such.  There is no reason to bring 'homoerotic emotion' into this discussion.

Watchmaker

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6991 on: January 13, 2021, 07:57:19 AM »
Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?

I don't see homosexuality as something insulting, sorry.

That's not what Nereo is saying. And I also found your original comment uncomfortable.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6992 on: January 13, 2021, 08:12:55 AM »
Indeed I am seeing posts of several elected Republicans shifting their support away from Trump, and I feel hopeful.

I have no idea what's going on in legit conservative areas, such as parler.

Why couldn't conservative media have led a charge back to mass e-mail communication? I cannot start checking yet another site!

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6993 on: January 13, 2021, 08:30:04 AM »
Indeed I am seeing posts of several elected Republicans shifting their support away from Trump, and I feel hopeful.

I have no idea what's going on in legit conservative areas, such as parler.

Why couldn't conservative media have led a charge back to mass e-mail communication? I cannot start checking yet another site!

Not much is going on at Parler right now, lol.

https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-web-services-parler-lawsuit-user-threats-1561179

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6994 on: January 13, 2021, 08:41:59 AM »
Indeed I am seeing posts of several elected Republicans shifting their support away from Trump, and I feel hopeful.

I have no idea what's going on in legit conservative areas, such as parler.

Why couldn't conservative media have led a charge back to mass e-mail communication? I cannot start checking yet another site!

Not much is going on at Parler right now, lol.

https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-web-services-parler-lawsuit-user-threats-1561179

Over at thedonald, there's some infighting, some concern (socialism! re-education camps!), some talk about the false flag last week (it was antifa and blm!), and disbelief that anyone could have voted for Romney and Cheney.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6995 on: January 13, 2021, 08:53:31 AM »
“You can either go down in history as a patriot,” Mr. Trump told him, according to two people briefed on the conversation, “or you can go down in history as a pussy.”
I certainly would prefer to be called a useful pet than to be called a military-fanatic shortsighted nut.

Actually Trump reverse logiced this.  Biden would be a pussy (has Trump ever met a cat? They are not pushovers) to give in to T**** and a Patriot to do the oath-following activity of doing his job properly.

If only Pence had shown some back bone. Including hauling off and knocking Trump on his ass. Of course Trump would spin it to his favor but whatever.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6996 on: January 13, 2021, 09:02:23 AM »
Pence is in a horrible position.  After spending much of the last four years being Trump's mostly silent right-hand man (and often being contradicted by POTUS himself when sent out to defend indefensible positions) he's hated by Trump's extreme base (chants of "Hang Mike Pence" during the insurrection), he's intensely disliked by Dems, and he's equally at odds with the NeverTrumpers and GOP moderates for not holding the president accountable.

Pence was plucked out of a losing Indiana race for governor to serve as VP.  I'm not certain where he goes from here if he wants to stay in politics. Unseating Young (R) in 2022 seems a long-shot.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6997 on: January 13, 2021, 09:08:04 AM »
Almost as if a lifetime of terrible decisions has consequences.

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6998 on: January 13, 2021, 09:15:18 AM »
Indeed I am seeing posts of several elected Republicans shifting their support away from Trump, and I feel hopeful.

I have no idea what's going on in legit conservative areas, such as parler.

Why couldn't conservative media have led a charge back to mass e-mail communication? I cannot start checking yet another site!

Not much is going on at Parler right now, lol.

https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-web-services-parler-lawsuit-user-threats-1561179

Over at thedonald, there's some infighting, some concern (socialism! re-education camps!), some talk about the false flag last week (it was antifa and blm!), and disbelief that anyone could have voted for Romney and Cheney.

It's the same at RedState.  They are absolutely sure that EVERYONE except a tiny handful of politicians (Ted Cruz, etc.) are working against them and Trump, to actively destroy American and make us a Chinese province. Consequently, they are despairing and frightened.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6999 on: January 13, 2021, 09:32:09 AM »
Hmmm.  I was just referring to Trump's history of pussy grabbing and applying it to a person of the same gender . . . why do you assume that homosexuality somehow debases a person?

I don't see homosexuality as something insulting, sorry.

That's not what Nereo is saying. And I also found your original comment uncomfortable.

No, that is exactly what he's talking about.  He was very explicit.

Nereo first said that it is debasing to say that a person may act upon homosexual feelings.  Then he argued that even implying a person could be gay is an insult to that person.  Frankly, neither sit well with me.
 There's nothing wrong with being gay or acting in a gay manner - it's perfectly normal.  So where is the insult / debasement?

I've been thinking a lot about this.  Either being gay is something bad/wrong as Nereo argues (which would make my initial comment an insult) or it's perfectly OK to be gay and nothing I said was wrong.  You can't really have it both ways.  If we were discussing Michelle Pence, and Trump wanting to grab her in heterosexual fervor . . . then there would be no problem.  Why?  Because heterosexuality is not dirty/insulting/debasing.  But neither is homosexuality!

Really, the uncomfortable part should be the lack of consent bit - something that Trump has always been happy to brag about.

Am I out to lunch on this (I often am)?  Does treating homosexuality the same way as heterosexuality make me a homophobe as Nereo argued?