Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681526 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6600 on: January 07, 2021, 05:25:58 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  That’s what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Let’s just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I don’t think I’m particularly unique.

It’s a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Don’t call them terrorists.

I was 23 when 9/11 happened. Listened to it in real time, like I did yesterday. A dear friend has lived in Christchurch since before the big quakes (and certainly through the mosque massacre). What happened yesterday was terrorism.

Watchmaker

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6601 on: January 07, 2021, 05:30:52 PM »
@GuitarStvDon’t call them terrorists.

They are terrorists, plain and simple. The fact that some would object to calling them that makes it all the more important to call them out for what they are.

They are also seditionists and traitors, if we need more names for them.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6602 on: January 07, 2021, 05:46:16 PM »
@GuitarStvDon’t call them terrorists.

They are terrorists, plain and simple. The fact that some would object to calling them that makes it all the more important to call them out for what they are.

They are also seditionists and traitors, if we need more names for them.

All of those names fit. I'm a professional editor. Words have meaning.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6603 on: January 07, 2021, 05:49:58 PM »
Re: Terrorism.

This entire event was planned. It was centrally organized, had identifiable leadership, has its own websites, and declared exactly what they planned to do and then did it. On those same websites right now are people who claim to have been there and are angry that they didn't start a shooting war with the police. They feel betrayed that Trump ordered them to march on the capitol, and then just a couple hours later to go home.  They argue they'd still be there occupying the city and battling it out if only Trump had given the word.  Too bad if the word 'terrorism' is inflammatory to you. If the shoe fits, wear it.

And before anybody tries to argue "well it was just a handful of them who got violent," if I witness somebody announce "I'm going to Washington D.C. on 6 Jan and conduct political violence" and all indications are that they're serious and I say nothing, I'm complicit in whatever crimes they carry out.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6604 on: January 07, 2021, 06:06:24 PM »
Damn just watched the videos

That looked like an extremely dangerous situation with a lynch mob ready to use whatever force it wanted. Mob mentality is dangerous and needs to be suppressed. The police did well to only shoot one person.

ender

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6605 on: January 07, 2021, 06:09:44 PM »
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title22/chapter38&edition=prelim


Quote
(2) the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;


I'm not really sure how you could argue this doesn't fit.

Unless the argument is "violence" requires multiple people being harmed (only 1 police officer so far has died, so it's "just" one person who has died as a result - ignoring property damage) it certainly reads like a clear cut example of terrorism.

It was violence.

It was premeditated.

It was politically motivated.

It was against noncombatant targets (congress).

It was done by a subnational group.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6606 on: January 07, 2021, 06:16:20 PM »

I JUST HEARD TRUMP IS DISCUSSING PARDONING HIMSELF BECAUSE  WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL TOLD HIM HE MAY BE IN LEGAL JEOPARDY FOR ENCOURAGING YESTERDAY'S ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL BUILDING.




Trump mulling self-pardon, sources say - ABC Newsabcnews.go.com › trump-mulling-pardon-sources › story
2 hours ago — However, following the riots Trump's White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, advised the president that he could face legal jeopardy for ...



Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself - The ...www.nytimes.com › U.S. › Politics
20 mins ago — President Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the ... because they did not believe they were in legal jeopardy and thought that ... the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he

This is the most alarmed I've seen you be on this forum. If he attempts this, it will be both an admission of guilt (as you have pointed out in similar contexts), but will also up the ante on the potential constitutional crisis. Pence has indicated (via NYT reporting) that he is not amenable to using the 25th Amendment. I suspect Pelosi will move forward with impeachment in the house using a streamlined process. The constitution does not require a lot of process other than a vote on the matter. This will put the Senate in an awkward spot, and the floor vote in the House is likely to be blustery from the 140-something reps that just voted to try and overturn the election to favor Trump. What a mess.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6607 on: January 07, 2021, 06:33:23 PM »
Not sure if posted yet, but a police officer has been taken off life support. Now it's 5 people dead I'm aware of.

We all understand the negative connotation associated with the word terrorist, which is precisely why I used it. 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6608 on: January 07, 2021, 06:53:47 PM »
Not sure if posted yet, but a police officer has been taken off life support. Now it's 5 people dead I'm aware of.

We all understand the negative connotation associated with the word terrorist, which is precisely why I used it.

TBD: NPR reporting that this is not correct.
https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/07/954333542/four-dead-police-injured-dozens-arrested-after-siege-at-the-u-s-capitol

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6609 on: January 07, 2021, 06:58:09 PM »
Quote
“Trump is a political David Koresh,” said Billy Piper, a former chief of staff to the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, referring to the cult leader who died with his followers during an F.B.I. siege in Waco, Texas. “He sees the end coming and wants to burn it all down and take as many with him as possible.”

Omy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6610 on: January 07, 2021, 07:15:22 PM »
Trump outrage today: Trump has conceded and is calling for healing and unity.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6611 on: January 07, 2021, 07:16:41 PM »
Devos just resigned. Cowardly cabinet member rats abandoning a sinking ship.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6612 on: January 07, 2021, 07:17:49 PM »

I JUST HEARD TRUMP IS DISCUSSING PARDONING HIMSELF BECAUSE  WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL TOLD HIM HE MAY BE IN LEGAL JEOPARDY FOR ENCOURAGING YESTERDAY'S ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL BUILDING.




Trump mulling self-pardon, sources say - ABC Newsabcnews.go.com › trump-mulling-pardon-sources › story
2 hours ago — However, following the riots Trump's White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, advised the president that he could face legal jeopardy for ...



Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself - The ...www.nytimes.com › U.S. › Politics
20 mins ago — President Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the ... because they did not believe they were in legal jeopardy and thought that ... the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he

This is the most alarmed I've seen you be on this forum. If he attempts this, it will be both an admission of guilt (as you have pointed out in similar contexts), but will also up the ante on the potential constitutional crisis. Pence has indicated (via NYT reporting) that he is not amenable to using the 25th Amendment. I suspect Pelosi will move forward with impeachment in the house using a streamlined process. The constitution does not require a lot of process other than a vote on the matter. This will put the Senate in an awkward spot, and the floor vote in the House is likely to be blustery from the 140-something reps that just voted to try and overturn the election to favor Trump. What a mess.

Only Trump, a devious sociopath,  could cause this abominable, executive-branch turmoil.

The filthiness of his profanation of the institution of the presidency is revolting.

Congress must punish him for he deserves it.




I am not familiar with the arcana of congressional procedures.

I gather that the House of Representatives has a rule that allows certain resolutions a special, expedited status  so they can be debated and voted on very quickly.

Is an unprecedented, emergency-driven, second impeachment of Trump in the offing?

I believe so.

The House ought to do it.

The House must do it.

At the very least Trump's  ignominious  record  will be stained once again with another,  infamous, indelible"I" of impeachment.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:24:47 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6613 on: January 07, 2021, 07:18:29 PM »
One of the youtube comments was: "This is the worst production of Les Mis I've ever seen."

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6614 on: January 07, 2021, 07:23:28 PM »
Trump outrage today: Trump has conceded and is calling for healing and unity.

At first I ignored this because I assumed it was sarcasm

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/president-trump-concedes-condemns-supporters-rioted-75122489

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6615 on: January 07, 2021, 07:31:10 PM »
Devos just resigned. Cowardly cabinet member rats abandoning a sinking ship.

Senator McConnell's wife, Secretary of Transportation Elaine  Chow, also resigned today.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:33:07 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6616 on: January 07, 2021, 07:31:44 PM »
Trump's apology was a little scattershot to say the least.

Am I the only one annoyed by journalists' editorialising of Trump pieces? This is from The Guardian's blog:

Quote
More than 24 hours after he incited a violent mob to attack the US Capitol in support of his unconstitutional efforts to overturn the presidential election, Donald Trump finally conceded that “a new administration will be inaugurated on January 20” and promised a “smooth, orderly and seamless” transfer of power.

The video statement was posted on Twitter, one of the only social media platforms to which the president still has access following his unprecedented and egregious encouragement of rioters bent on insurrection.

None of the bolded should have been written.

As much as Trump's actions are deplorable, and as much as the bolded segments are well-justified comments, they are still comments.

News reporting should avoid personal commentary. It is a matter of self-restraint and intellectual honesty.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6617 on: January 07, 2021, 07:35:04 PM »
Trump's apology was a little scattershot to say the least.

Am I the only one annoyed by journalists' editorialising of Trump pieces? This is from The Guardian's blog:

Quote
More than 24 hours after he incited a violent mob to attack the US Capitol in support of his unconstitutional efforts to overturn the presidential election, Donald Trump finally conceded that “a new administration will be inaugurated on January 20” and promised a “smooth, orderly and seamless” transfer of power.

The video statement was posted on Twitter, one of the only social media platforms to which the president still has access following his unprecedented and egregious encouragement of rioters bent on insurrection.

None of the bolded should have been written.

As much as Trump's actions are deplorable, and as much as the bolded segments are well-justified comments, they are still comments.

News reporting should avoid personal commentary. It is a matter of self-restraint and intellectual honesty.

Why did you include "violent"? The mob was indeed violent, that is a statement of fact.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6618 on: January 07, 2021, 07:39:44 PM »
Mobs are violent or contain the potential for violence by definition.

I don't know why journalists think they have to over-explain and descend into spoon-feeding readers.

Trump may well be a hypocritical idiot who's ruining the country, but only a poor journalist would write that; for it is not the journalist's role to state conclusions - only facts.


Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6619 on: January 07, 2021, 07:40:01 PM »
Trump outrage today: Trump has conceded and is calling for healing and unity.

No he didn't. He did not say "I lost." All he said was "there will be somebody else here." He lied out his comb-over once again declaring he did everything he did to ensure a fair election rather than spend two months trying to engineer a coup.  That crap about "emotions and tensions" were entirely of his making. He told them flat out to be angry and they got angry. 

edit: he also took credit for mobilizing the Guard. Bullshit. He was still patting the rioters on the head when Pence picked up the phone and called them in.

Meanwhile Ted Cruz is on the air saying he's not sorry one bit for his role in this, but also absolving himself of the violence. Somehow beating the drums of a coup attempt for weeks and it actually happening conveys no responsibility.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 10:53:14 PM by Travis »

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6620 on: January 07, 2021, 07:45:06 PM »
Mobs are violent or contain the potential for violence by definition.

I don't know why journalists think they have to over-explain and descend into spoon-feeding readers.

Trump may well be a hypocritical idiot who's ruining the country, but only a poor journalist would write that; for it is not the journalist's role to state conclusions - only facts.

Because there's still a significant amount of the population who saw nothing wrong with what happened yesterday.

"finally" - two months after he lost the election

"egregious" - another word for shocking. He didn't just get on the podium and say "I was robbed." He instructed the crowd to go do something about it.

"insurrection" - a riot is just a mob of people causing vandalism. Insurrection is the explicit goal of overthrowing the legitimate government. It bears repeating that this wasn't just a protest that got a little out of hand. This was deliberate with a specific goal.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6621 on: January 07, 2021, 07:49:25 PM »
You missed my point (even though I explicitly said it) which is not that I take issue with the characterisations, but that the characterisations do not belong in straight news reporting.

As a matter of intellectual honesty, I like my journalism dry and fact based. I have no need to know a journalist's personal opinions on anything, whether I disagree or agree with those opinions.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6622 on: January 07, 2021, 07:50:40 PM »
You missed my point (even though I explicitly said it) which is not that I take issue with the characterisations, but that the characterisations do not belong in straight news reporting.

As a matter of intellectual honesty, I like my journalism dry and fact based. I have no need to know a journalist's personal opinions on anything, whether I disagree or agree with those opinions.

Yes, the word "violent" does belong in straight news reporting. It isn't a personal opinion.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6623 on: January 07, 2021, 07:51:41 PM »
Mobs are violent or contain the potential for violence by definition.

I don't know why journalists think they have to over-explain and descend into spoon-feeding readers.

Trump may well be a hypocritical idiot who's ruining the country, but only a poor journalist would write that; for it is not the journalist's role to state conclusions - only facts.

Because there's still a significant amount of the population who saw nothing wrong with what happened yesterday.

"finally" - two months after he lost the election

"egregious" - another word for shocking. He didn't just get on the podium and say "I was robbed." He instructed the crowd to go do something about it.

"insurrection" - a riot is just a mob of people causing vandalism. Insurrection is the explicit goal of overthrowing the legitimate government. It bears repeating that this wasn't just a protest that got a little out of hand. This was deliberate with a specific goal.

This. You aren't here, Bloop. Too many people here are claiming that Trump supporters are never violent and that what happened yesterday was completely acceptable and even good. Too many people need to be spoonfed the truth. Maybe if the media had done it sooner, yesterday's seditious insurrection wouldn't have happened.

As an American and editor, I am glad that they're finally using strong enough language to convey the horror of what has happened.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6624 on: January 07, 2021, 07:56:51 PM »
You missed my point (even though I explicitly said it) which is not that I take issue with the characterisations, but that the characterisations do not belong in straight news reporting.

As a matter of intellectual honesty, I like my journalism dry and fact based. I have no need to know a journalist's personal opinions on anything, whether I disagree or agree with those opinions.

Yes, the word "violent" does belong in straight news reporting. It isn't a personal opinion.

I'm fine with the word 'violent' being used in news reporting, but 'mob' already contains the concept. That's the principle of parsimony.

I don't agree with OtherJen that the direness of the situation requires dumb people to be spoon-fed. Leaving aside the pragmatic consideration that those people wouldn't be reading The Guardian in the first place, I don't think spoon-feeding terms like "finally" (oh, about time!) and "egregious" (one step up from Trump's own Terrible, Terrible) is going to change anyone's political opinions at all.

And even if I were to accept that "the dumb populace needs to understand!", that's better saved for an opinion piece. Or a speech by a populist demagogue.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6625 on: January 07, 2021, 08:03:50 PM »
These are descriptors. Appropriately used descriptors.

Abe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6626 on: January 07, 2021, 08:21:44 PM »
Bloop’s personal peeves with journalism-specific grammar aside, who do you thinks going to finally replace Trump as crackpot head of the violent egregious mob insurrection Party? Cruz seems like a good bet. He’s eager to use the nut jobs to jump into power and is probably better at controlling them to political ends than Trump. I predict he will announce his candidacy for president on January 22nd, win the 2024 election and again in 2028. That’ll be the outrage for today.

Poundwise

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6627 on: January 07, 2021, 08:34:50 PM »
If this guy isn't a terrorist, who is? What are those zip ties for...  gardening?
How about the Molotov cocktails, the pipe bombs, the guns?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 08:38:53 PM by Poundwise »

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6628 on: January 07, 2021, 09:06:39 PM »
You missed my point (even though I explicitly said it) which is not that I take issue with the characterisations, but that the characterisations do not belong in straight news reporting.

As a matter of intellectual honesty, I like my journalism dry and fact based. I have no need to know a journalist's personal opinions on anything, whether I disagree or agree with those opinions.

Yes, the word "violent" does belong in straight news reporting. It isn't a personal opinion.

I'm fine with the word 'violent' being used in news reporting, but 'mob' already contains the concept. That's the principle of parsimony.

I don't agree with OtherJen that the direness of the situation requires dumb people to be spoon-fed. Leaving aside the pragmatic consideration that those people wouldn't be reading The Guardian in the first place, I don't think spoon-feeding terms like "finally" (oh, about time!) and "egregious" (one step up from Trump's own Terrible, Terrible) is going to change anyone's political opinions at all.

And even if I were to accept that "the dumb populace needs to understand!", that's better saved for an opinion piece. Or a speech by a populist demagogue.

Quote
mob
[mäb]
NOUN
a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.
"a mob of protesters"

It's a perfectly acceptable word to clarify the behavior of the mob.  The fact that you're more outwardly bothered by this than you are what actually happened is concerning.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6629 on: January 07, 2021, 09:07:46 PM »
Bloop’s personal peeves with journalism-specific grammar aside, who do you thinks going to finally replace Trump as crackpot head of the violent egregious mob insurrection Party? Cruz seems like a good bet. He’s eager to use the nut jobs to jump into power and is probably better at controlling them to political ends than Trump. I predict he will announce his candidacy for president on January 22nd, win the 2024 election and again in 2028. That’ll be the outrage for today.

Sometimes people forget that he's one of the original Tea Party. Feeding off the fringe is his claim to fame. If Trump decides he wants to continue to play the role of standard bearer for this crowd it's going to be an entertaining power struggle. Go back and look at their 2016 arguments for what happened when Trump stole that from him.

sui generis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6630 on: January 07, 2021, 09:08:46 PM »
You missed my point (even though I explicitly said it) which is not that I take issue with the characterisations, but that the characterisations do not belong in straight news reporting.

As a matter of intellectual honesty, I like my journalism dry and fact based. I have no need to know a journalist's personal opinions on anything, whether I disagree or agree with those opinions.

Yes, the word "violent" does belong in straight news reporting. It isn't a personal opinion.

I'm fine with the word 'violent' being used in news reporting, but 'mob' already contains the concept. That's the principle of parsimony.

By your own definition, the mob is either violent or it had the potential for it. It is an important factual matter to know whether violence actually occurred or if the potential was left unrealized. Therefore, this was a valuable addition in order to dispel the ambiguity you describe in the definition of "mob."

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6631 on: January 07, 2021, 09:46:10 PM »
Sure, perhaps 'violent' was a helpful and objective term to clarify that the mob did indeed partake in violence and wasn't just inclined to violence. I will accept that.

JLee, the fact that I pick up on journalistic integrity doesn't mean I'm not bothered by what's happening. Though as you can probably tell by my Les Mis comment, I regard it as all slightly surreal, and reflective of a country that's gone to shit.

If I were American I would seriously want blue states to secede - or I'd make plans to leave the country. The Republicans are going to ruin it for the rest of you, otherwise.

dividendman

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6632 on: January 07, 2021, 10:11:56 PM »
Not sure if posted yet, but a police officer has been taken off life support. Now it's 5 people dead I'm aware of.

We all understand the negative connotation associated with the word terrorist, which is precisely why I used it.

TBD: NPR reporting that this is not correct.
https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/07/954333542/four-dead-police-injured-dozens-arrested-after-siege-at-the-u-s-capitol

Looks like police officer Brian D. Sicknick https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/capitol-police-officer-has-died-after-clashing-pro-trump-mob-n1253396 was killed by the terrorists.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6633 on: January 07, 2021, 10:16:42 PM »
Not sure if posted yet, but a police officer has been taken off life support. Now it's 5 people dead I'm aware of.

We all understand the negative connotation associated with the word terrorist, which is precisely why I used it.

TBD: NPR reporting that this is not correct.
https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/07/954333542/four-dead-police-injured-dozens-arrested-after-siege-at-the-u-s-capitol

Looks like police officer Brian D. Sicknick https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/capitol-police-officer-has-died-after-clashing-pro-trump-mob-n1253396 was killed by the terrorists.


Gah, the NBC report is just a few minutes after the NPR retraction - its like Tanya Roberts all over again. Have we moved onto Zombies?!

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6634 on: January 07, 2021, 10:17:17 PM »
So there's talk of impeachment, 25th amendment, etc.

If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Wouldn't it be a smarter strategy for the Dems to sit tight until January 20 and then go at Trump afterwards?

Does a pardon apply to all currently-outstanding federal charges, or does it wipe the slate clean so no new charges can be made for anything committed pre-pardon? If no charges have been laid yet, does a pardon simply end the investigations?

Donnie Jr could be in trouble as well given his behaviour.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6635 on: January 07, 2021, 10:20:01 PM »
So there's talk of impeachment, 25th amendment, etc.

If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Wouldn't it be a smarter strategy for the Dems to sit tight until January 20 and then go at Trump afterwards?

Does a pardon apply to all currently-outstanding federal charges, or does it wipe the slate clean so no new charges can be made for anything committed pre-pardon? If no charges have been laid yet, does a pardon simply end the investigations?

Donnie Jr could be in trouble as well given his behaviour.

The point of removing Trump is to keep him from doing more damage in the next few days. Even with a pardon, it would be more punishment than he has ever received for his heinous actions.

Poundwise

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6636 on: January 07, 2021, 10:30:53 PM »

Quote
According to the Capitol Police statement, Sicknick was responding to the riots on Wednesday, January 6, 2021, at the U.S. Capitol while on duty and was injured during a physical altercation with members of the mob of Trump supporters who stormed the building. “He returned to the division office and collapsed,” the department said. “He was taken to a local hospital where he succumbed to his injuries.”

Although it has been reported Sicknick was hit on the head with a fire extinguisher, according to The New York Times it’s not yet clear what caused his death.

https://heavy.com/news/brian-sicknick/

Dollar Slice

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6637 on: January 07, 2021, 10:53:04 PM »
If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Pence might not be feeling all that generous. Trump just told a crowd of thousands of his pet nutjobs that Pence was the one they had to convince to throw the vote in his favor, so they built a gallows outside the building where Pence was and stormed it while shouting "Hang Mike Pence!"

Pence is a pretty strange guy, but pardoning someone for sending a mob of lunatics to kill you has got to give you at least a moment's pause. He reportedly has not been answering his phone and has not talked to the president at all.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6638 on: January 07, 2021, 10:57:27 PM »
If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Pence might not be feeling all that generous. Trump just told a crowd of thousands of his pet nutjobs that Pence was the one they had to convince to throw the vote in his favor, so they built a gallows outside the building where Pence was and stormed it while shouting "Hang Mike Pence!"

Pence is a pretty strange guy, but pardoning someone for sending a mob of lunatics to kill you has got to give you at least a moment's pause. He reportedly has not been answering his phone and has not talked to the president at all.

It doesn't sound like he has talked to anyone at all since he walked off the Senate floor early this morning. He has to be pretty shook up. I would feel sorry for him if he hadn't spent the last four and half years pandering to his tormentor, knowing that the guy was going to throw him under the bus at some point.

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6639 on: January 07, 2021, 10:57:42 PM »
terrorist cop-killers now. These people that haven't been arrested yet may want to stay in hiding forever.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6640 on: January 08, 2021, 12:16:58 AM »
How many of these people have persistently refused to wear masks for the last year, including on January 6? Seems that's going to come back to bite them.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6641 on: January 08, 2021, 12:45:50 AM »
If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Pence might not be feeling all that generous. Trump just told a crowd of thousands of his pet nutjobs that Pence was the one they had to convince to throw the vote in his favor, so they built a gallows outside the building where Pence was and stormed it while shouting "Hang Mike Pence!"

Pence is a pretty strange guy, but pardoning someone for sending a mob of lunatics to kill you has got to give you at least a moment's pause. He reportedly has not been answering his phone and has not talked to the president at all.

It doesn't sound like he has talked to anyone at all since he walked off the Senate floor early this morning. He has to be pretty shook up. I would feel sorry for him if he hadn't spent the last four and half years pandering to his tormentor, knowing that the guy was going to throw him under the bus at some point.

Don't feel sorry at all. Anybody who has been paying attention ought to realize that all of Trump's relationships are transactional. There is no such thing as loyalty in his mind. You're a resource to be exploited until you're no longer useful, and anything less than sycophancy is grounds for dismissal.

marty998

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6642 on: January 08, 2021, 03:55:48 AM »
If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Pence might not be feeling all that generous. Trump just told a crowd of thousands of his pet nutjobs that Pence was the one they had to convince to throw the vote in his favor, so they built a gallows outside the building where Pence was and stormed it while shouting "Hang Mike Pence!"

Pence is a pretty strange guy, but pardoning someone for sending a mob of lunatics to kill you has got to give you at least a moment's pause. He reportedly has not been answering his phone and has not talked to the president at all.

History has a long, if sometimes foggy memory. Pence is considering how his actions over the next week will be remembered for centuries to come.

I'll bet the last thing he wants is to knife the messiah and take the Presidency right now in the middle of this shitshow. The target on his back from the Trumpists isn't going to get smaller if he does that. They'll be after him for the rest of his life.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6643 on: January 08, 2021, 04:24:19 AM »
If that happens, wouldn't Pence just pardon Trump once he assumes power?

Pence might not be feeling all that generous. Trump just told a crowd of thousands of his pet nutjobs that Pence was the one they had to convince to throw the vote in his favor, so they built a gallows outside the building where Pence was and stormed it while shouting "Hang Mike Pence!"

Pence is a pretty strange guy, but pardoning someone for sending a mob of lunatics to kill you has got to give you at least a moment's pause. He reportedly has not been answering his phone and has not talked to the president at all.

It doesn't sound like he has talked to anyone at all since he walked off the Senate floor early this morning. He has to be pretty shook up. I would feel sorry for him if he hadn't spent the last four and half years pandering to his tormentor, knowing that the guy was going to throw him under the bus at some point.

Don't feel sorry at all. Anybody who has been paying attention ought to realize that all of Trump's relationships are transactional. There is no such thing as loyalty in his mind. You're a resource to be exploited until you're no longer useful, and anything less than sycophancy is grounds for dismissal.

Yep. Anyone who chooses to interact with him has made this deal. This was evident 30 years ago when his first divorce was all over the news. It has been evident in all of his failed business deals and broken contracts. I have no sympathy for anyone who threw in their lot with him and is now facing the consequences. They knew who and what he was. We all did.

My sympathy is reserved solely for Trump's teenaged son. That young man will have to live under his father's treasonous legacy, and he certainly didn't choose any of this.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6644 on: January 08, 2021, 04:34:43 AM »
The shooting was unjustified.   I also notice there's an extreme bias in the media about this.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mainstream-lawlessness-trump-dc-riots-inexcusable-unrest-police

The media went out of its way in 2020 to paint sometimes-violent protests across the nation as mostly "peaceful," but finally came around on Wednesday to the notion that mayhem and anarchy is always unacceptable – all it took was Trump supporters causing the chaos to spark a swift change of heart.

Anyway, glad Trump's days in office are dwindling.

90% of shootings in the US are unjustified. This is not one of them. Mostly because it was the last line of defense and if the security had not shot, the rest of the rioters would have followed, outnumbering the security personal in a close area. Or in other words: There would have been either a mass shooting or the breach of defense.

Not to mention, this was about the most predictable there is where the person did not fire first. If you try to climb over a barricade where people with drawn weapons are protecting someone important - it would be a surprise if they don't shoot even in Bhutan.


Trump's apology was a little scattershot to say the least.

Am I the only one annoyed by journalists' editorialising of Trump pieces? This is from The Guardian's blog:

Quote
More than 24 hours after he incited a violent mob to attack the US Capitol in support of his unconstitutional efforts to overturn the presidential election, Donald Trump finally conceded that “a new administration will be inaugurated on January 20” and promised a “smooth, orderly and seamless” transfer of power.

The video statement was posted on Twitter, one of the only social media platforms to which the president still has access following his unprecedented and egregious encouragement of rioters bent on insurrection.

None of the bolded should have been written.

As much as Trump's actions are deplorable, and as much as the bolded segments are well-justified comments, they are still comments.

News reporting should avoid personal commentary. It is a matter of self-restraint and intellectual honesty.
While this is certainly with a bit of POV, it also certainly is an objective description. Even the "finally" - was there ever a president before that took that long in a clear case?

If you take out the POV completely, you end up with "People entered the capitol while being ordered not to do it. They destroyed property. One was shot."
It's an accurate description, but it does not tell you what happened, what it was about.

Quote
Pence is considering how his actions over the next week will be remembered for centuries to come.

I'll bet the last thing he wants is to knife the messiah and take the Presidency right now in the middle of this shitshow. The target on his back from the Trumpists isn't going to get smaller if he does that. They'll be after him for the rest of his life.
Damn, I wanted to end this with some famous poetry, but the english translations garble it up too much, so take my translation:

Die ich rief, die Geister
werd ich nun nicht los

The spirits that I called
I cannot shake me free.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6645 on: January 08, 2021, 04:39:28 AM »
Whatever happens to Trump's presidency by January 20 will happen, but sadly the people involved in this attack and their supporters aren't going away anytime soon.

How does America prevent such political violence from happening again?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 05:06:56 AM by alsoknownasDean »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6646 on: January 08, 2021, 05:11:59 AM »
Quote
If you take out the POV completely, you end up with "People entered the capitol while being ordered not to do it. They destroyed property. One was shot."
It's an accurate description, but it does not tell you what happened, what it was about.

You could simply write - without excessive editorialising:

Hundreds of protestors, some armed with what were later found to be IEDs and others carrying backpacks with unknown contents, overcame police by sheer numbers and entered the nation's Capitol. The protestors had earlier set up camp on the mall. Some of them had erected a gallows. They later were heard shouting for Mike Pence to be found and brought before them.

In an interior corridor, a stand-off arose between protestors - who were captured on video footage chanting slogans echoing President Trump's own incitements from days earlier - and Capitol police, the latter armed with pistols and carbines. One woman attempted to climb through a window and was shot, once. In the haphazard scenes that followed, no other shots were fired and police were seen tending to the stricken woman.


I'm no journalism major so maybe my writing is clunky and not up to the exemplary standards of Guardian journalism (hahaha) but I would prefer more description and facts and less commentary. The above description only took a couple of minutes for me to cobble together from pictures and videos so I'm sure the Guardian blogger could have tried a little harder to provide some colour and movement from facts.

You want to convey that the mob was violent and frenetic? Paint the picture with words.

You want to convey Trump's dawdling and deep hypocrisy? Excerpt his speeches!

It ain't hard. Show, don't tell. I'm not a professional writer and have no formal training in writing - but I reckon I could do a better job than some of these journos.

cerat0n1a

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6647 on: January 08, 2021, 05:36:19 AM »
Trump outrage today: Trump has conceded and is calling for healing and unity.

At first I ignored this because I assumed it was sarcasm

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/president-trump-concedes-condemns-supporters-rioted-75122489

It has the air of one of those videos that hostages are sometimes forced to make by their captors. I wonder who wrote the words for him.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6648 on: January 08, 2021, 06:02:16 AM »
Quote
If you take out the POV completely, you end up with "People entered the capitol while being ordered not to do it. They destroyed property. One was shot."
It's an accurate description, but it does not tell you what happened, what it was about.

You could simply write - without excessive editorialising:

Hundreds of protestors, some armed with what were later found to be IEDs and others carrying backpacks with unknown contents, overcame police by sheer numbers and entered the nation's Capitol. The protestors had earlier set up camp on the mall. Some of them had erected a gallows. They later were heard shouting for Mike Pence to be found and brought before them.

In an interior corridor, a stand-off arose between protestors - who were captured on video footage chanting slogans echoing President Trump's own incitements from days earlier - and Capitol police, the latter armed with pistols and carbines. One woman attempted to climb through a window and was shot, once. In the haphazard scenes that followed, no other shots were fired and police were seen tending to the stricken woman.


I'm no journalism major so maybe my writing is clunky and not up to the exemplary standards of Guardian journalism (hahaha) but I would prefer more description and facts and less commentary. The above description only took a couple of minutes for me to cobble together from pictures and videos so I'm sure the Guardian blogger could have tried a little harder to provide some colour and movement from facts.

You want to convey that the mob was violent and frenetic? Paint the picture with words.

You want to convey Trump's dawdling and deep hypocrisy? Excerpt his speeches!

It ain't hard. Show, don't tell. I'm not a professional writer and have no formal training in writing - but I reckon I could do a better job than some of these journos.

You said yourself that it was a blog, which is usually maintained by a news org to keep on top of breaking news in real time. The standards for that sort of writing and formal journalism are different. That seems obvious to me, at least, as a professional editor who does have to apply different styles and standards to different types of writing intended for different purposes.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6649 on: January 08, 2021, 07:01:25 AM »
Quote
If you take out the POV completely, you end up with "People entered the capitol while being ordered not to do it. They destroyed property. One was shot."
It's an accurate description, but it does not tell you what happened, what it was about.

You could simply write - without excessive editorialising:

Hundreds of protestors, some armed with what were later found to be IEDs and others carrying backpacks with unknown contents, overcame police by sheer numbers and entered the nation's Capitol. The protestors had earlier set up camp on the mall. Some of them had erected a gallows. They later were heard shouting for Mike Pence to be found and brought before them.

In an interior corridor, a stand-off arose between protestors - who were captured on video footage chanting slogans echoing President Trump's own incitements from days earlier - and Capitol police, the latter armed with pistols and carbines. One woman attempted to climb through a window and was shot, once. In the haphazard scenes that followed, no other shots were fired and police were seen tending to the stricken woman.


I'm no journalism major so maybe my writing is clunky and not up to the exemplary standards of Guardian journalism (hahaha) but I would prefer more description and facts and less commentary. The above description only took a couple of minutes for me to cobble together from pictures and videos so I'm sure the Guardian blogger could have tried a little harder to provide some colour and movement from facts.

You want to convey that the mob was violent and frenetic? Paint the picture with words.

You want to convey Trump's dawdling and deep hypocrisy? Excerpt his speeches!

It ain't hard. Show, don't tell. I'm not a professional writer and have no formal training in writing - but I reckon I could do a better job than some of these journos.

Interesting how your police are armed, but no mention of the rioters being armed with lead pipes and tear gas... evidently I misread the first time...need more sleep
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 07:36:54 AM by ixtap »