Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681540 times)

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6550 on: January 07, 2021, 01:10:22 PM »
Don't fuck with the Secret Service protection detail.

She earned this one 100%.

NSFW video: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ks8gtj/clearest_view_of_a_terrorist_attempting_to_breach/

I think this one is a bit more clear in terms of her behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9oThRuMVs&bpctr=1610041725

The shooting was unjustified.   I also notice there's an extreme bias in the media about this.


I don't necessarily agree with this.  I was on the fence, but someone mentioned the backpack, and I agree.  The police do have an obligation to protect, and no telling what she had in that backpack.  Normally I would advocate the police giving the citizenry the benefit of the doubt, like don't shoot lawfully armed homeowners.  But this is a much different scenario.  None of us know what the guidelines are for deadly force for the Capitol Police, so it's all speculation really.

It looks like Secret Service, given the suit and the single shot, which is an entirely different level. They're meant to do one thing and one thing only: protect their charge(s).

Two things: "protecting the nation's leaders and safeguarding the financial and critical infrastructure of the United States."
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 01:13:38 PM by bacchi »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6551 on: January 07, 2021, 01:11:16 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

The 25th amendment doesn't require a trial, gathering of evidence, and committee hearings for deposition by the House and Senate which would run multiple days very likely. The 25th amendment instead only requires a written note from the VP and Cabinet to depose the President. The President can challenge it and then congress can override the challenge with a 2/3 vote.

Of course this would require about 1/3 of the Republicans to go along with it. At this point, you may see it possible. With Pence signing onto it, there may be enough votes to do it. (Plus it's easier politically for GOP members to sign on if it comes from the GOP rather than the House)

dang1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6552 on: January 07, 2021, 01:12:00 PM »
"When the looting starts, the shooting starts"

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6553 on: January 07, 2021, 01:13:01 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.
I believe it is cleaner because it is faster and more clear that it is about unacceptable behavior (as opposed to political retribution) if it is lead by Pence.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6554 on: January 07, 2021, 01:13:10 PM »
It looks like Secret Service, given the suit and the single shot, which is an entirely different level. They're meant to do one thing and one thing only: protect their charge(s).

News said plain clothed Capitol Police, but it may be some times before the fog of war is cleared up.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6555 on: January 07, 2021, 01:13:35 PM »
Don't fuck with the Secret Service protection detail.

She earned this one 100%.

NSFW video: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ks8gtj/clearest_view_of_a_terrorist_attempting_to_breach/

I think this one is a bit more clear in terms of her behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9oThRuMVs&bpctr=1610041725

The shooting was unjustified.   I also notice there's an extreme bias in the media about this.


I don't necessarily agree with this.  I was on the fence, but someone mentioned the backpack, and I agree.  The police do have an obligation to protect, and no telling what she had in that backpack.  Normally I would advocate the police giving the citizenry the benefit of the doubt, like don't shoot lawfully armed homeowners.  But this is a much different scenario.  None of us know what the guidelines are for deadly force for the Capitol Police, so it's all speculation really.

It looks like Secret Service, given the suit and the single shot, which is an entirely different level. They're meant to do one thing and one thing only: protect their charge(s).

The Capitol Police have taken responsibility, putting the officer in question on suspension for the duration of the investigation.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6556 on: January 07, 2021, 01:15:12 PM »
Don't fuck with the Secret Service protection detail.

She earned this one 100%.

NSFW video: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ks8gtj/clearest_view_of_a_terrorist_attempting_to_breach/

I think this one is a bit more clear in terms of her behavior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ9oThRuMVs&bpctr=1610041725

The shooting was unjustified.   I also notice there's an extreme bias in the media about this.


I don't necessarily agree with this.  I was on the fence, but someone mentioned the backpack, and I agree.  The police do have an obligation to protect, and no telling what she had in that backpack.  Normally I would advocate the police giving the citizenry the benefit of the doubt, like don't shoot lawfully armed homeowners.  But this is a much different scenario.  None of us know what the guidelines are for deadly force for the Capitol Police, so it's all speculation really.

It looks like Secret Service, given the suit and the single shot, which is an entirely different level. They're meant to do one thing and one thing only: protect their charge(s).

The Capitol Police have taken responsibility, putting the officer in question on suspension for the duration of the investigation.

Well, damn. He's a good shot for a cop.

charis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6557 on: January 07, 2021, 01:16:02 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

The 25th amendment doesn't require a trial, gathering of evidence, and committee hearings for deposition by the House and Senate which would run multiple days very likely. The 25th amendment instead only requires a written note from the VP and Cabinet to depose the President. The President can challenge it and then congress can override the challenge with a 2/3 vote.

Does the issue of him trying to pardon himself come into play with either option?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6559 on: January 07, 2021, 01:18:26 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

The 25th amendment doesn't require a trial, gathering of evidence, and committee hearings for deposition by the House and Senate which would run multiple days very likely. The 25th amendment instead only requires a written note from the VP and Cabinet to depose the President. The President can challenge it and then congress can override the challenge with a 2/3 vote.

Does the issue of him trying to pardon himself come into play with either option?
A self-pardon would not matter, and could actually make things worse for Trump. The requirement is that either the cabinet (25th) or congress (impeachment) deems him unfit for office. Criminal liability is not explicitly required.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6560 on: January 07, 2021, 01:19:01 PM »
This is fucking insane.  Trump, the insurrection, the terrorist apologists in this thread.

It speaks to the lack of true patriotism in the US today. Trying to stop the formal choosing of a President is just an afternoon's lark, ya know?

You're acting as if there are only two ways to respond:

Complete nonchalance to the point of complicity
OR
Condemn them all as murderous terrorists

Isn't there room for something in between?

I'm curious.  What is the in-between response that you're advocating?

I certainly don't see all the protestors as murderous terrorists.  There were thousands of people who stayed outside whom (I assume) remained peaceful . . . but I can only see the people who violently broke into the capitol building as doing something very bad.

If a group kicked down the door to your home and tried to smash their way into a room you barricade yourself into . . . and you shot them to death, no jury in the US would convict you of unlawful action.  It's unreasonable to believe that they are not there to hurt someone.

Is the problem with the use of the inflammatory words 'murderous' and 'terrorist'?  As far as the use of the word 'terrorist', it seems to fit pretty well:
Terrorist - a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Violence and intimidation were used against civilians for political aims by the people who boke into the capitol.

How about murderous?
Murderous - capable of or intending to murder; dangerously violent.
I don't think that violently breaking into a building after issuing threats outside against people who were in the building can be viewed in any other way.

dividendman

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6561 on: January 07, 2021, 01:20:31 PM »
I just realized since these are all federal crimes Trump can pardon all of these insurrectionists...

Wait... if they kill people in DC, it's all federal right? Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6562 on: January 07, 2021, 01:21:23 PM »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6563 on: January 07, 2021, 01:27:49 PM »
The shooting was unjustified.

A rioter attempts to force their way through barricades into the room where the VP is, and the shooting is unjustified? Wooooow.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6564 on: January 07, 2021, 01:28:30 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

Professor Rory Little said in effect that invoking the 25th Amendment is too complicated.

He also made a statement similar to what I've posted about Congress' power to impeach Trump forthwith.

When he said this, it was something to the effect   that Trump could be impeached today or tomorrow.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6565 on: January 07, 2021, 01:45:48 PM »
Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6566 on: January 07, 2021, 01:48:37 PM »
The person who was shot was crawling through a window that led to where the Vice President and the Speaker were. Number 2 and 3 in power in the country. She was told repeatedly to stop, to stand down.

She was attempting to harm government officials, so she was shot. It's sad that someone died but 100% completely justified.

Wild speculation.  No weapons were found on her.

Does a security person wait to see what the person has in their backpack? I'll remind you of the Nashville Christmas Day bomber. Clearly some of these Trump supporters are very suspect.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6567 on: January 07, 2021, 01:52:00 PM »
If she was ex-military she was very possibly trained to kill without weapons.  Would you want to chance the VP's life that she wasn't?

rofl.  okay, you guys got me.  She was definitely trying to kill Pence with her bare hands, solo, taking on the Capitol Police and the Secret Service.  You guys got me, I was just trolling.

Friend just told me about a Twitter exchange between VP Harris and the lady who was shot. Lady sounded very unhinged.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6568 on: January 07, 2021, 01:54:42 PM »
The person who was shot was crawling through a window that led to where the Vice President and the Speaker were. Number 2 and 3 in power in the country. She was told repeatedly to stop, to stand down.

She was attempting to harm government officials, so she was shot. It's sad that someone died but 100% completely justified.

Wild speculation.  No weapons were found on her.

Does a security person wait to see what the person has in their backpack? I'll remind you of the Nashville Christmas Day bomber. Clearly some of these Trump supporters are very suspect.

If this was a BLM protest and someone rushed Trump or Pence with a backpack, after breaking into the Capitol building with a horde of others, the Trump supporters would be screaming that they all should've been shot as soon as they set foot inside...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6569 on: January 07, 2021, 01:59:11 PM »
The person who was shot was crawling through a window that led to where the Vice President and the Speaker were. Number 2 and 3 in power in the country. She was told repeatedly to stop, to stand down.

She was attempting to harm government officials, so she was shot. It's sad that someone died but 100% completely justified.

Wild speculation.  No weapons were found on her.

Does a security person wait to see what the person has in their backpack? I'll remind you of the Nashville Christmas Day bomber. Clearly some of these Trump supporters are very suspect.

If this was a BLM protest and someone rushed Trump or Pence with a backpack, after breaking into the Capitol building with a horde of others, the Trump supporters would be screaming that they all should've been shot as soon as they set foot inside...
Seems a lot of them would also appreciate the "stand your ground" element of it.

Details will certainly become more clear soon, and there will also probably be a lot of spin as well. That the situation came to pass that this, and all the other bullshit of Jan6 came to pass is heartbreaking and disturbing.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6570 on: January 07, 2021, 02:07:32 PM »
Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

And what about a VP pardoning a President that just resigned? Is he considered impartial?

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6571 on: January 07, 2021, 02:11:12 PM »
Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

And what about a VP pardoning a President that just resigned? Is he considered impartial?
That is a possibility. The precedent is Ford pardoning Nixon in order to let the country move on. Given how much more egregious Trump has been than Nixon, I'm pretty sure that would not be taken as well. Regardless, the pardon would only apply to federal crimes, and Trump has massive legal liability at the state level.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6572 on: January 07, 2021, 02:17:38 PM »
Does a security person wait to see what the person has in their backpack? I'll remind you of the Nashville Christmas Day bomber. Clearly some of these Trump supporters are very suspect.

Only one person on here said the "security person" shouldn't have shot her.  That person was not me.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6573 on: January 07, 2021, 02:31:43 PM »
Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

And what about a VP pardoning a President that just resigned? Is he considered impartial?
That is a possibility. The precedent is Ford pardoning Nixon in order to let the country move on. Given how much more egregious Trump has been than Nixon, I'm pretty sure that would not be taken as well. Regardless, the pardon would only apply to federal crimes, and Trump has massive legal liability at the state level.

Considering how Trump threw Pence under the bus, and that Pence's family was also in the Capitol building, and that there were chants of "Where's Mike Pence?" from the Trump mob, I'd expect Pence to not pardon Trump.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6574 on: January 07, 2021, 02:34:34 PM »
Considering how Trump threw Pence under the bus, and that Pence's family was also in the Capitol building, and that there were chants of "Where's Mike Pence?" from the Trump mob, I'd expect Pence to not pardon Trump.

Uh, yeeaaaaah, that's not the only thing about Pence they were shouting.

Edit: I guess I should actually say it with words, because I hate it when people just throw a link up too. They're shouting "Hang Mike Pence!" very very clearly. I'm assuming that the running through the building looking for Pence specifically happened after this because here they're still at the door, not yet inside. Draw your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 02:40:55 PM by sherr »

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6575 on: January 07, 2021, 02:39:25 PM »
Considering how Trump threw Pence under the bus, and that Pence's family was also in the Capitol building, and that there were chants of "Where's Mike Pence?" from the Trump mob, I'd expect Pence to not pardon Trump.

Uh, yeeaaaaah, that's not the only thing about Pence they were shouting.

That's not evidence they wanted to harm the VP. Until he's on the gallows they set up in front of the Capitol, we can't assume intent. </s>


Thanks. Hadn't seen/heard that video.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6576 on: January 07, 2021, 02:45:53 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

The 25th amendment doesn't require a trial, gathering of evidence, and committee hearings for deposition by the House and Senate which would run multiple days very likely. The 25th amendment instead only requires a written note from the VP and Cabinet to depose the President. The President can challenge it and then congress can override the challenge with a 2/3 vote.

To me the advantage is that the impetus would come from primarily Republicans. As of the last list I saw, only one Republican has signed on to impeach and remove. How is this a partisan issue?!

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6577 on: January 07, 2021, 02:47:39 PM »
As of the last list I saw, only one Republican has signed on to impeach and remove. How is this a partisan issue?!

Simple. Because the Republican base loves Trump, and there is a very very large chance that impeaching and removing him would end their career.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6578 on: January 07, 2021, 02:54:33 PM »
Does a security person wait to see what the person has in their backpack? I'll remind you of the Nashville Christmas Day bomber. Clearly some of these Trump supporters are very suspect.

Only one person on here said the "security person" shouldn't have shot her.  That person was not me.

Wasn't me either. Just want to make that extra clear. It was unfortunate but he he did what he was ordered to do. Frankly I think the protesters should have never been allowed in the building based on their behavior, their words, and things like the gallows being constructed in front of the building.

Based on their words - they were a serious threat.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6579 on: January 07, 2021, 03:08:31 PM »
Can Trump literally kill someone in DC then pardon himself? You yanks need to get rid of this ridiculous pardon power.

The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

And what about a VP pardoning a President that just resigned? Is he considered impartial?
That is a possibility. The precedent is Ford pardoning Nixon in order to let the country move on. Given how much more egregious Trump has been than Nixon, I'm pretty sure that would not be taken as well.

I fully concur.

Trump is an unhinged,  poisonous anticonstitutionalist inimical to America's institutions.

Trump  is an evil, malicious   degenerate,  without question the worst president ever.




A  pardonee can never escape  opprobrium for their misdeed(s) because  a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."

This informed Ford's rationale of Nixon's pardon.

Long after he pardoned Nixon  in his wallet Ford carried a section of the Burdick opinion.







BURDICK v. UNITED STATES
(1915)

This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial.  the latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 03:13:11 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Watchmaker

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6580 on: January 07, 2021, 03:17:52 PM »
Simple. Because the Republican base loves Trump, and there is a very very large chance that impeaching and removing him would end their career.

Someone in the session last night (one of the senators, I'm pretty sure) had a line along the lines of: some people are willing to lay down their lives to protect democracy, and we're not even willing to lose our jobs to do the same. I wish I remembered who it was.

The shooting was unjustified.

Honestly, I'm just quoting this so I can find it later. I can't even imagine the rationale for that take.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6581 on: January 07, 2021, 03:21:23 PM »
Pelosi has told Pence that if he doesn't invoke the 25th in a day, she is prepared to move forward with impeachment. 25th is clearly the cleanest option for all involved, sycophants aside.

Why do you think the 25th is cleaner?

On the surface, I prefer barring him from future office with impeach and remove, but I admit I am not familiar with the finer points.

The 25th amendment doesn't require a trial, gathering of evidence, and committee hearings for deposition by the House and Senate which would run multiple days very likely. The 25th amendment instead only requires a written note from the VP and Cabinet to depose the President. The President can challenge it and then congress can override the challenge with a 2/3 vote.

To me the advantage is that the impetus would come from primarily Republicans. As of the last list I saw, only one Republican has signed on to impeach and remove. How is this a partisan issue?!

Itís because the Republicans want the MAGA terroristsí votes, even though the MAGA terrorists came to murder them yesterday. They have no spines at all.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6582 on: January 07, 2021, 03:30:09 PM »


As of the last list I saw, only one Republican has signed on to impeach and remove. How is this a partisan issue?!

Congress is populated by  too many  craven careerists or careerist cravens.

Take your pick.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 03:32:40 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6583 on: January 07, 2021, 03:55:20 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  Thatís what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Letís just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I donít think Iím particularly unique.

Itís a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Donít call them terrorists.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6584 on: January 07, 2021, 03:56:54 PM »
If their bombs had gone off could we call them terrorists? Or do we have to wait until they get really good tans?

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6585 on: January 07, 2021, 04:04:35 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  Thatís what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Letís just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I donít think Iím particularly unique.

Itís a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Donít call them terrorists.
Bullshit. We shouldnít give these people a pass because they are white or homegrown. If the definition of terrorism fits, we should use it.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6586 on: January 07, 2021, 04:07:19 PM »
Just because the terrorists arrived in a swarm doesnít mean they werenít, by and large, terrorists.


I do think there was a subset of the crowd that (somehow) genuinely believed they had arrived for a protest. Betcha those folks had the sense not to storm the building.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6587 on: January 07, 2021, 04:13:03 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  Thatís what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Letís just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I donít think Iím particularly unique.

Itís a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Donít call them terrorists.

Did you have trouble understanding my meaning in the previous post?

If not, then I think we can put to bed the argument that using the dictionary definition of words is too confusing to convey meaning.

Do you consider American Airlines Flight 63 a terrorist attack?  I do.  The number of dead don't determine whether or not something is terrorism.  It's very clear in the definition: Terrorism - the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.  I reject the argument that a high body count must be achieved for something to count as terrorism.

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6588 on: January 07, 2021, 04:14:46 PM »
You guys are being way too polite to MC.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6589 on: January 07, 2021, 04:14:50 PM »

Bullshit. We shouldnít give these people a pass because they are white or homegrown. If the definition of terrorism fits, we should use it.

Who said anything about race or origin?  Are you trying to bait me?

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6590 on: January 07, 2021, 04:21:50 PM »
@GuitarStv I understand you and I think I was sufficiently respectful of your position while explaining mine.

Connotation is not something I am making up... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/connotation

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6591 on: January 07, 2021, 04:22:56 PM »

IDK anything about the training of  the police officers  on duty at yesterday's storming of  the Capitol building.

Given the rise  of domestic terrorism and mass shootings, and the fact the police  are on duty in the Capitol, a place  that is a quintessentially  target-rich environment attractive to terrorists,  I would think  their training  included many hypothetical scenarios about when or when not to shoot an attacker.

I know that sometimes people who climb over the fencing around the White House are tackled instead of being  shot. Of course, a single person is much different than an attacking mob.

Initially, I was undecided about the shooting of Babbitt.

Was it necessary?

Or a disproportionate use of deadly force?

That she was wearing a backpack was the deciding factor for me.

She could have been a suicidal bomber so I think shooting her was justified.

I'm sorry she was shot and killed.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:26:24 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6592 on: January 07, 2021, 04:23:07 PM »
Not terrorists?

Quote
Rep. Veronica Escobar, D-Texas, was among two dozen hiding behind the railing of the chamberís upper gallery, where they had gathered to watch the historic proceedings below.

Escobar could hear the mob outside. Police shouted, ďGet down!Ē

ďI crouched down with my colleagues,Ē said Escobar, who is from El Paso. ďI heard Capitol Police yelling, ĎPut your weapons down. Back away from the door!í I saw them pointing their guns toward the door, and on the other side of that thin, little door was an angry mob and a group of domestic terrorists intent on doing harm.Ē

She thought of the mass shooting in an El Paso Walmart in 2019 and a video from that day showing people crouched under tables as a declared white supremacist shot and killed 23 people.
ďAnd I was literally thinking about that video when I heard shots fired,Ē Escobar said. ďAnd I thought, I donít know if weíre going to get out of here.Ē

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/01/07/how-did-they-get-into-capitol-lawmakers-congress-feared-death/6583304002/

sui generis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6593 on: January 07, 2021, 04:28:02 PM »
@GuitarStv I understand you and I think I was sufficiently respectful of your position while explaining mine.

Connotation is not something I am making up... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/connotation

Of course connotation exists. But just because people don't think of guys who look like they are from Duck Dynasty as possible terrorists, that's all the more reason that we call them terrorists when they DO the definition of terrorism. To change the connotations so they will be more accurate!

Cool Friend

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6594 on: January 07, 2021, 04:31:21 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  Thatís what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Letís just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I donít think Iím particularly unique.

Itís a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Donít call them terrorists.

What the fuck is this idiot talking about?

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6595 on: January 07, 2021, 04:33:18 PM »


IDK anything about the training of  the police officers  on duty at yesterday's storming of  the Capitol building.

Given the rise  of domestic terrorism and mass shootings, and the fact that they are on duty in the Capitol, a place  that is a quintessentially  target-rich environment attractive to terrorists,  I would think  their training  included many hypothetical scenarios about when or when not to shoot an attacker.

I know that sometimes people who climb over the fencing around the White House are tackled instead of being  shot. Of course, a single person is much different than an attacking mob.

Initially, I was undecided about the shooting of Babbitt.

Was it necessary?

Or a disproportionate use of deadly force?

That she was wearing a backpack was the deciding factor for me.

She could have been a suicide bomber so I think shooting her was justified.

I'm sorry she was shot and killed.

I felt the same way

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6596 on: January 07, 2021, 04:45:49 PM »
@GuitarStv As I said before, I think seditionares is a good word (is that really the plural?  Thatís what my dictionary says).

Terrorism is a word fraught with connotation.  You know as well as I do communication is half transmitting and half receiving.  You have to take into account the receivers likely perception.

Letís just take the violence element.  Brandishing weapons and shoving people can be considered violent.  So can mowing people down with AK-47s and flying planes into buildings. 

I was 15 when 9/11 happened.  My first introduction to terrorism.  More recently we have Pulse nightclub and Christchurch and Manchester.  Calling these people terrorists will feel like equating them to hijackers who fly planes into buildings to many receivers, I donít think Iím particularly unique.

Itís a very inflammatory word, and right now we need the exact opposite.

Put these people in jail, charge them with breaking and entering, assault, sedition, hell criminally negligent homicide or felony murder.  Donít call them terrorists.

What the fuck is this idiot talking about?

We certainly shouldnít use inflammatory terms for people who storm the US Capitol and attempt to murder government officials. That would be insensitive. /s

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6597 on: January 07, 2021, 04:54:56 PM »
Sometimes itís too easy for me to get addicted to these discussions.  I think Iíve stated my positions, and I think I was respectful to those who disagree with me.  Iím not sure I will have anything new to add.

I donít expect anyone to agree with me or change my mind, but I do hope you can try to see it from a different angle.  Understanding is not agreeing, I donít ask anyone to change their beliefs.

Really going to try to disengage this time.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6598 on: January 07, 2021, 05:11:31 PM »

I JUST HEARD TRUMP IS DISCUSSING PARDONING HIMSELF BECAUSE  WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL TOLD HIM HE MAY BE IN LEGAL JEOPARDY FOR ENCOURAGING YESTERDAY'S ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL BUILDING.




Trump mulling self-pardon, sources say - ABC Newsabcnews.go.com õ trump-mulling-pardon-sources õ story
2 hours ago ó However, following the riots Trump's White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, advised the president that he could face legal jeopardy for ...



Trump Is Said to Have Discussed Pardoning Himself - The ...www.nytimes.com õ U.S. õ Politics
20 mins ago ó President Trump has suggested to aides he wants to pardon himself in the ... because they did not believe they were in legal jeopardy and thought that ... the White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone, warned Mr. Trump that he



« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:15:25 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6599 on: January 07, 2021, 05:15:02 PM »
It is regretful that she got shot. However I entirely respect the fact that the police officer was in his right to shoot. There was an extremely angry mob who was previously yelling "hang pence" and she was breaking through while wearing a backpack, honestly they could think this was a mass casualty situation. The police have to use their best judgement and are responsible for the safety of the people in that building.
 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:22:00 PM by partgypsy »