Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681530 times)

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6400 on: January 06, 2021, 08:47:58 PM »
The blue states might genuinely be better off seceding/having a civil war.

The Constitution is devoid of any provision that allows for a process whereby a State may secede from the United States of America.

There wasn't any proceedure for countries to leave the EU before Brexit.  A piece of paper isn't going to stop a state from leaving the union.

A piece of paper on its own does nothing.  It only means something if people decide to do what it says.  70 million Trump voters and QAnon believers think  that piece of paper is useless, because they have been told lies for the last 5 years and believe those lies so strongly that nothing you can say is going' to change their minds.

There was actually, in article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. Just no country had used it before the UK.

Which means that despite the criticism from some people and the level of close cooperation between member states (in some cases stronger than in the case of US states) the EU is not and never can be a federation in the classic sense of the word.
Article 50 was a latecomer to the Treaties, there was no procedure at all for the first 50 years of the EEEC/EU.  Which didn't stop Greenland and Algeria both leaving.

dang1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6401 on: January 06, 2021, 08:56:14 PM »
traitors running around with confederate flags in the Capitol today. Clearly, more confederates should have been killed in the Civil War, and Reconstruction should have been stronger and lasted longer- it might have done a better job wiping out treason.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6402 on: January 06, 2021, 09:02:46 PM »
You might be overestimating the significance of the "red" gang.

In 2016, Counties that voted for Trump represented 36% of US GDP. Clinton - 64%.
In 2020, Counties that voted for Trump represented just 29% of the economy.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2020/11/09/biden-voting-counties-equal-70-of-americas-economy-what-does-this-mean-for-the-nations-political-economic-divide/

It is easy to overestimate just how "significant" the red faction is. They have outsized political power, yes. But they have pretty much lost everything else in the last two decades.

I do wonder if perhaps this shift in economic power from the republican leaning population to the democrat leaning population might be behind a lot of the anger and ability to get into mob mentality?

It is human nature to band together and look elsewhere for blame (people believing "those damn Jewish bankers and jewlers are behind all of our problems" was one of the key reasons Germany was able to justify treating people lower than animals). 

In the same way, a relatively poor but significant (nearly half the population) of the USA sees their way of life being questioned/changed and their standard of living being lowered.  They don't blame the drinking, or spending $10 a day on smokes but rather those damn democrats and their welfare programs.

The danger will be if we spend so much that conditions actually deteriorate to the point where this thought process gains traction.  I would imagine this rioting would have been much much worse if people in general were actually seriously suffering/starving.

Definitely. There's a lot of resentment around money and higher education and change. Coal miners actually make decent money but the world is changing and is leaving them behind.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6403 on: January 06, 2021, 09:04:37 PM »
traitors running around with confederate flags in the Capitol today. Clearly, more confederates should have been killed in the Civil War, and Reconstruction should have been stronger and lasted longer- it might have done a better job wiping out treason.

Nah, they just watched the news and saw how it seemed to be OK to burn down restaurants and deface public property and decided if it is good for one group, it should be good for others.

Doesn't make it right, but I can see how people could get the idea in their head that they could get away with it.  I guess the lady who died didn't though.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6404 on: January 06, 2021, 09:14:28 PM »
Definitely. There's a lot of resentment around money and higher education and change. Coal miners actually make decent money but the world is changing and is leaving them behind.

Right.   We are building our own house and I now realize how incredibly hard it is.  Even working 7 days a week it is going slooooow and is very tiring.  All of the people I meet in this industry are very republican leaning, even though they are making something like $15 to $20 an hour.  They probably resent and envy the hell out of the software engineers and other high paying occupations that are largely democrat populated.   I always would play down the fact that we were early retired from software so as not to draw their ire.  I would just say something like "we took some time off from work to build a house" and they would respect that.

If the economy ever goes in the shitter for real and for longer than a few months, this is a worrisome group.

dang1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6405 on: January 06, 2021, 09:24:25 PM »
traitors running around with confederate flags in the Capitol today. Clearly, more confederates should have been killed in the Civil War, and Reconstruction should have been stronger and lasted longer- it might have done a better job wiping out treason.

Nah, they just watched the news and saw how it seemed to be OK to burn down restaurants and deface public property and decided if it is good for one group, it should be good for others.

Doesn't make it right, but I can see how people could get the idea in their head that they could get away with it.  I guess the lady who died didn't though.

and also maybe they are thinking that they are mostly white, they would be treated far less harshly by the cops? yup, doesn't make it right one bit

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6406 on: January 06, 2021, 09:30:47 PM »
The problem is that we’ve spent the last 40 years deregulating the economy and dismantling unions, exposing the average worker to the raw market for wages. Then, through deregulation of international trade, we have broadened that labor market so that American workers are competing against labor in lower cost markets worldwide. People who just want to make an honest living for an honest day’s wages don’t have a chance anymore. Trump has simply tapped into their frustration.

As much as people say they want deregulation and free markets, they really don’t. We need to figure out as a country how to resolve these competing forces.

dang1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6407 on: January 06, 2021, 09:39:54 PM »
The problem is that we’ve spent the last 40 years deregulating the economy and dismantling unions, exposing the average worker to the raw market for wages. Then, through deregulation of international trade, we have broadened that labor market so that American workers are competing against labor in lower cost markets worldwide. People who just want to make an honest living for an honest day’s wages don’t have a chance anymore. Trump has simply tapped into their frustration.

As much as people say they want deregulation and free markets, they really don’t. We need to figure out as a country how to resolve these competing forces.
a huge swath of people in the U.S. have been left behind is because our politics written by race, written by regionalism long before Trump, has made us have the weakest welfare state and the weakest worker protections in the world for a rich country. And so, go across the border of Canada, go across the Atlantic to any Western European country, go the other direction to Australia or Singapore or Japan and workers have not been left behind as much.
https://ritholtz.com/2020/11/transcript-adam-posen/

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6408 on: January 06, 2021, 09:42:20 PM »
Yes, and we’re hamstrung from doing anything about it because of an irrational fear of any government assistance as “Socialism” and by focusing on race rather than economics as one of the key sources of division within our country.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6409 on: January 06, 2021, 09:43:02 PM »
Thankfully today marks the end of Trumpism. It was the last dying gasp of his cult before the whole sordid mess fades (quickly) into history. This catharsis needed to happen and was the inevitable conclusion of the insanity.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6410 on: January 06, 2021, 09:46:59 PM »
Today marks the end of Trump, but not Trumpism.

dang1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6411 on: January 06, 2021, 09:54:36 PM »
Yes, and we’re hamstrung from doing anything about it because of an irrational fear of any government assistance as “Socialism” and by focusing on race rather than economics as one of the key sources of division within our country.
LOL! lordy lord! socialism
"After its 1929 economic crash, capitalism was badly discredited. The unprecedented political power of a surging U.S. left enabled government intervention to redistribute wealth from corporations and the rich to average citizens. Private capitalists and the Republican Party responded with a commitment to undo the New Deal. The end of World War II and FDR’s death in 1945 provided the opportunity to destroy the New Deal coalition.
The strategy hinged on demonizing the coalition’s component groups, above all the communists and socialists. Anti-communism quickly became the strategic battering ram."
https://www.yesmagazine.org/democracy/2020/01/30/socialism-understanding/

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6412 on: January 06, 2021, 10:39:42 PM »
traitors running around with confederate flags in the Capitol today. Clearly, more confederates should have been killed in the Civil War, and Reconstruction should have been stronger and lasted longer- it might have done a better job wiping out treason.

Nah, they just watched the news and saw how it seemed to be OK to burn down restaurants and deface public property and decided if it is good for one group, it should be good for others.

Doesn't make it right, but I can see how people could get the idea in their head that they could get away with it.  I guess the lady who died didn't though.

and also maybe they are thinking that they are mostly white, they would be treated far less harshly by the cops? yup, doesn't make it right one bit

Well poor Elizabeth from Knoxville, TN was maced. Poor lady... ;)

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6413 on: January 07, 2021, 03:58:34 AM »
Yikes. Protestors are rushing past the barriers at the Capitol. Some of the federal office buildings are being evacuated.

Wtf are the troops?


Edit: McConnell finally grew a spine. Or he can read the tea leaves.

Finally a legitimate use for police brutality if I ever saw one.  Release the dogs.  Release the bees.  Release the dogs with bees in their mouths so when they bark they shoot bees at you.
We are in the post 2020 world now it is murder hornets

FAKE BEES!

Reports from Kansas say that protesters have also stormed the Kansas statehouse.

What's the reasoning behind that?

You ask Trump lunatics for REASONING???

What's wrong with your reasoning?

Quote
2) the violence is all antifa anyway.
Ahhh! There! I had the feeling something was missing all the time... now I know what.

Still someone out there who does not know that the US is close to a banana republic?
I mean there at least the rebels go against the president - not being encouraged by him!

habanero

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6414 on: January 07, 2021, 04:13:15 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

Sugaree

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6415 on: January 07, 2021, 04:59:38 AM »
Thankfully today marks the end of Trumpism. It was the last dying gasp of his cult before the whole sordid mess fades (quickly) into history. This catharsis needed to happen and was the inevitable conclusion of the insanity.

I wish I could be so confident.  I'm in deep South MAGAstan and you can already see the doubling down of the rhetoric. 

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6416 on: January 07, 2021, 05:35:04 AM »
Thankfully today marks the end of Trumpism. It was the last dying gasp of his cult before the whole sordid mess fades (quickly) into history. This catharsis needed to happen and was the inevitable conclusion of the insanity.

I wish I could be so confident.  I'm in deep South MAGAstan and you can already see the doubling down of the rhetoric.

If you're measuring influence over people's minds and money raised, right now Trump is the party. 70% of Republicans think the election was rigged. That was entirely his doing.  They gave him over $200 million to put in his pocket to challenge the election for which he spent less than 10% on lawsuits and legally can keep the rest, and they love him for it.  If he continues to raise money successfully after inauguration we'll know whether or not "Trumpism" is still alive.

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6417 on: January 07, 2021, 05:35:37 AM »
Definitely. There's a lot of resentment around money and higher education and change. Coal miners actually make decent money but the world is changing and is leaving them behind.

Right.   We are building our own house and I now realize how incredibly hard it is.  Even working 7 days a week it is going slooooow and is very tiring.  All of the people I meet in this industry are very republican leaning, even though they are making something like $15 to $20 an hour.  They probably resent and envy the hell out of the software engineers and other high paying occupations that are largely democrat populated.   I always would play down the fact that we were early retired from software so as not to draw their ire.  I would just say something like "we took some time off from work to build a house" and they would respect that.

If the economy ever goes in the shitter for real and for longer than a few months, this is a worrisome group.

Poverty is sometimes not a choice.

The groups you may have met in the US have no idea what real poverty looks like.

Terrorism is ALWAYS a choice.

Generally, based on the second hand information I have seen, poor people don't become terrorists, they are too busy surviving. Terrorism is mostly a middle/higher income thing, except for some foot soldiers.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6418 on: January 07, 2021, 05:47:25 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6419 on: January 07, 2021, 05:52:59 AM »
Simon Bruni @SimonBruni

Bet you never imagined that one day you'd be confined to your home during a deadly pandemic watching a bare-chested man with two dead raccoons on his head storm the Capitol.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6420 on: January 07, 2021, 05:58:28 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6421 on: January 07, 2021, 05:58:57 AM »
Simon Bruni @SimonBruni

Bet you never imagined that one day you'd be confined to your home during a deadly pandemic watching a bare-chested man with two dead raccoons on his head storm the Capitol.

The storming of the Capitol by Trumpbots was not at all surprising. The rest of it, yeah.

Also, this clip seems pretty representative of the cult: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CJu-qg3BZXl/?igshid=wonjp6pejhbk

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6422 on: January 07, 2021, 06:00:15 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

It does seem from the video footage that at least some of the police were in on this. Not surprising at all.

cerat0n1a

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6423 on: January 07, 2021, 06:15:52 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 06:21:00 AM by cerat0n1a »

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6424 on: January 07, 2021, 06:26:18 AM »
Oh, Rudy. Best stick with Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Giuliani to Senator: ‘Try to Just Slow it Down’ (The Dispatch)

Quote
Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer and top adviser to President Donald Trump, is calling Republican lawmakers urging them to delay the electoral vote count by at least one day to allow the president and his team to present more evidence of alleged election fraud. Giuliani was making calls this evening, as late as an hour before Congress reconvened, in a desperate attempt to block the final count of Electoral College votes.

At approximately 7 p.m., Giuliani called newly sworn-in Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville, a staunch Trump ally, imploring him to stall the process. “I want to discuss with you how they're trying to rush this hearing and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislatures to get more information to you,” Giuliani said in a voicemail. “And I know they're reconvening at 8 tonight, but it ... the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow—ideally until the end of tomorrow. I know McConnell is doing everything he can to rush it, which is kind of a kick in the head because it's one thing to oppose us, it's another thing not to give us a fair opportunity to contest it.”

Giuliani tells Tuberville that McConnell wants to narrow the objections to just three states and explains that the Trump team wants to object to 10. “So if you could object to every state and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every state, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote, particularly after what McConnell did today.”

The problem for Giuliani? He left his message on the voicemail of another senator, who shared it with The Dispatch.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6425 on: January 07, 2021, 06:32:48 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

The threat was that the building was full of a huge portion of the US Government, including the entire House of Representatives, the entire Senate, and the Vice President. The mob could have captured and held hostage or -- I hate to even imagine it -- murdered members of government. The Secret Service did a fantastic job of protecting people, but the police should never have allowed the mob to get into the building. Too much was at stake. In my opinion, this was a situation where deadly force was absolutely called for.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6426 on: January 07, 2021, 06:38:05 AM »
I hope this can serve as a wakeup call to some of these Republican congressman. Ted Cruz isn't stupid, but he supported the charade of objecting to the vote as a political game, knowing that it wouldn't lead anywhere. I wonder what he thinks now that this has put our democracy, not to mention himself and his colleagues, in danger.

He thinks he will be President on 1/20/2025.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6427 on: January 07, 2021, 06:40:14 AM »
Like many of you, I was surprised by how bad it got. I was not surprised at all by the President's actions, as he's always been transparent about who he is and what he believes.

I'm trying to take a very disciplined approach to what I allow myself to share on social media. I'm also letting my wife take the lead in allowing her parents to process this, as I think they recoil from my unctiousness in having been right about Trump. Which I was all along, dammit.

The only thing I'm doing is sharing this Washington Post Story. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/video-timeline-capitol-breach/?itid=hp-top-table-main-0106
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 06:48:58 AM by talltexan »

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6428 on: January 07, 2021, 06:55:14 AM »
Oh, Rudy. Best stick with Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Giuliani to Senator: ‘Try to Just Slow it Down’ (The Dispatch)

Quote
Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer and top adviser to President Donald Trump, is calling Republican lawmakers urging them to delay the electoral vote count by at least one day to allow the president and his team to present more evidence of alleged election fraud. Giuliani was making calls this evening, as late as an hour before Congress reconvened, in a desperate attempt to block the final count of Electoral College votes.

At approximately 7 p.m., Giuliani called newly sworn-in Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville, a staunch Trump ally, imploring him to stall the process. “I want to discuss with you how they're trying to rush this hearing and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislatures to get more information to you,” Giuliani said in a voicemail. “And I know they're reconvening at 8 tonight, but it ... the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow—ideally until the end of tomorrow. I know McConnell is doing everything he can to rush it, which is kind of a kick in the head because it's one thing to oppose us, it's another thing not to give us a fair opportunity to contest it.”

Giuliani tells Tuberville that McConnell wants to narrow the objections to just three states and explains that the Trump team wants to object to 10. “So if you could object to every state and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every state, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote, particularly after what McConnell did today.”

The problem for Giuliani? He left his message on the voicemail of another senator, who shared it with The Dispatch.

Am I reading the timeline correctly that he's making these calls after the attack? Holy shit, talk about not knowing when to put the pipe down. I think after today, Hannity will be the only one still taking his calls.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6429 on: January 07, 2021, 07:23:09 AM »
Oh, Rudy. Best stick with Four Seasons Total Landscaping.

Giuliani to Senator: ‘Try to Just Slow it Down’ (The Dispatch)

Quote
Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer and top adviser to President Donald Trump, is calling Republican lawmakers urging them to delay the electoral vote count by at least one day to allow the president and his team to present more evidence of alleged election fraud. Giuliani was making calls this evening, as late as an hour before Congress reconvened, in a desperate attempt to block the final count of Electoral College votes.

At approximately 7 p.m., Giuliani called newly sworn-in Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville, a staunch Trump ally, imploring him to stall the process. “I want to discuss with you how they're trying to rush this hearing and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislatures to get more information to you,” Giuliani said in a voicemail. “And I know they're reconvening at 8 tonight, but it ... the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow—ideally until the end of tomorrow. I know McConnell is doing everything he can to rush it, which is kind of a kick in the head because it's one thing to oppose us, it's another thing not to give us a fair opportunity to contest it.”

Giuliani tells Tuberville that McConnell wants to narrow the objections to just three states and explains that the Trump team wants to object to 10. “So if you could object to every state and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every state, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote, particularly after what McConnell did today.”

The problem for Giuliani? He left his message on the voicemail of another senator, who shared it with The Dispatch.

Am I reading the timeline correctly that he's making these calls after the attack? Holy shit, talk about not knowing when to put the pipe down. I think after today, Hannity will be the only one still taking his calls.

Yes, you are correct.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6430 on: January 07, 2021, 07:36:10 AM »
Would have been a scary sight in DC.

Surprised the police didn't shoot all the protestors. For all of the times that police in the states have been trigger happy, they seemed to use admirable restraint today.

Why are you surprised? These rioters were white.

I'm sure this was the 1st order reason.

The 2nd order reason was probably because the Trumpers were in charge of the police response.

But I think there's a decent chance that it just happened to be the correct strategic response (for non-Trumpers, and therefore non-traitors). So the armed insurrectionists stormed the Capitol and searched the for Congresspeople to murder and waived their confederate flags around and accomplished... nothing. Except showing the entire world exactly WHAT they are, in high definition video. On the other hand if you mow them down you just make martyrs of them to the rest of the cultists.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6431 on: January 07, 2021, 07:42:25 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

The threat was that the building was full of a huge portion of the US Government, including the entire House of Representatives, the entire Senate, and the Vice President. The mob could have captured and held hostage or -- I hate to even imagine it -- murdered members of government. The Secret Service did a fantastic job of protecting people, but the police should never have allowed the mob to get into the building. Too much was at stake. In my opinion, this was a situation where deadly force was absolutely called for.

I'm not sure if there was any violence involved, but if there was any legitimate threat of violence or impending violence to congressmen then deadly force should have been used.

Not shooting them will just embolden the insurrectionists.

dblaace

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6432 on: January 07, 2021, 07:49:13 AM »
Quote
Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

From my trip to London in 2011, the guards I saw at Parliament, Commons and Buckingham Palace were all well armed.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6433 on: January 07, 2021, 07:53:13 AM »
Interesting, @sherr. Definitely food for thought.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6434 on: January 07, 2021, 07:53:51 AM »
MSN poll:  45% of Republican voters support storming of the Capitol.  So, yep, not everyone was "outraged." 

GreenEggs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6435 on: January 07, 2021, 08:06:34 AM »
An explosive device or two would have changed our conversation today.  Fortunately, none of the nutjobs made that choice.  Hundreds could have been killed and the building could be smoldering this morning. 


The lack of security allowed "anything" to happen. 


None of this can be forgotten.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6436 on: January 07, 2021, 08:09:38 AM »
There were multiple IEDs found.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6437 on: January 07, 2021, 08:10:08 AM »
An explosive device or two would have changed our conversation today.  Fortunately, none of the nutjobs made that choice.  Hundreds could have been killed and the building could be smoldering this morning. 


The lack of security allowed "anything" to happen. 


None of this can be forgotten.

They had explosive devices, but luckily they didn't go off. They were also caught with a lot of molotov cocktails.

BussoV6

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6438 on: January 07, 2021, 08:13:09 AM »
Quote
Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

From my trip to London in 2011, the guards I saw at Parliament, Commons and Buckingham Palace were all well armed.

I'm fairly sure if you tried to storm the UK parliament, you's get shot. They have very tight security.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6439 on: January 07, 2021, 08:21:02 AM »
Quote
Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

From my trip to London in 2011, the guards I saw at Parliament, Commons and Buckingham Palace were all well armed.

I'm fairly sure if you tried to storm the UK parliament, you's get shot. They have very tight security.
Yes.  Sadly, I remember more innocent days when polite demonstrators would line up in Parliament Square to protest the issue of the day without needing prior permits.  Nowadays demonstrations all need prior permission, barriers prevent lorry bombs from being driven into the building and random terrorists are shot dead, sometimes but not always before killing one of the police on guard.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6440 on: January 07, 2021, 08:48:25 AM »
Definitely back in the day when the IRA was really active I would bet the UK police would not let a bunch of people storm into a public building.

jeninco

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6441 on: January 07, 2021, 09:02:44 AM »
Quote
Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

From my trip to London in 2011, the guards I saw at Parliament, Commons and Buckingham Palace were all well armed.

I'm fairly sure if you tried to storm the UK parliament, you's get shot. They have very tight security.
Yes.  Sadly, I remember more innocent days when polite demonstrators would line up in Parliament Square to protest the issue of the day without needing prior permits.  Nowadays demonstrations all need prior permission, barriers prevent lorry bombs from being driven into the building and random terrorists are shot dead, sometimes but not always before killing one of the police on guard.

I grew up in DC, and as kids we used to be able to explore around inside the capital building, at least when Congress wasn't in session. I distinctly remember checking out some coat closets, although it was a long time ago, and I could be mis-remembering. (Also, I am not young -- this would've been around 40 years ago.)

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6442 on: January 07, 2021, 09:04:47 AM »
Lotta videos of police taking selfies with protestors as they're breaking into the buildings.  Is this going to be like most instances of police misconduct where there's no repercussion for stupid actions?

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6443 on: January 07, 2021, 09:06:32 AM »
Lotta videos of police taking selfies with protestors as they're breaking into the buildings.  Is this going to be like most instances of police misconduct where there's no repercussion for stupid actions?
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/washingtondc/news/fbi-seeking-information-related-to-violent-activity-at-the-us-capitol-building

ETA: I wonder how many people will simply send the FBI DJT's Twitter feed?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 09:15:36 AM by Glenstache »

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6444 on: January 07, 2021, 09:10:58 AM »
In the police's defense, the commander in chief basically told them that the protestors had permission to vandalize the capital.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6445 on: January 07, 2021, 10:00:44 AM »
A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

If the protesters were intent on spilling blood, they didn't seem very well prepared.  This is wild and dangerous speculation.  Also highly discredited by the fact that the protestors killed no one.

But hey, Mr. Minority Report over here has all the answers.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6446 on: January 07, 2021, 10:03:25 AM »
Would have been a scary sight in DC.

Surprised the police didn't shoot all the protestors. For all of the times that police in the states have been trigger happy, they seemed to use admirable restraint today.

Why are you surprised? These rioters were white.

They shot an unarmed woman in the chest.  How much blood do you wish to be spilled in the name of racial equality?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 10:05:03 AM by Montecarlo »

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6447 on: January 07, 2021, 10:04:51 AM »
A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

If the protesters were intent on spilling blood, they didn't seem very well prepared.  This is wild and dangerous speculation.  Also highly discredited by the fact that the protestors killed no one.

But hey, Mr. Minority Report over here has all the answers.

Really? They were breaking down the Chamber doors. They were harping all week about what they were planning.

But, yeah, maybe they wanted to have a quiet chat with the Democrats and "traitorous" Republicans.


iris lily

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6448 on: January 07, 2021, 10:06:05 AM »
In hindsight, after watching the live footage on TV here, the most surprising is problaby how little surprised I was yesterday. Not saying I expected to see some dude sitting in Pelosis' chair in her office or anything like that, but I have over the last years learnt that pretty much anything is possible. Also republican politicians contesting and dragging out the confirmation after all the mayhem happened. That's a whole different league of sad, I mean at least those should in theory be responsible adults.

I admit being quite surprised that they actually got into the building (apparantly) so easily, but the rest I guess is just the culimination of these 4 years of seer madness.

They got in because some cops let them in. There is video of them opening the barriers and letting them through.

Well, that, and the ones who bashed windows in and climbed through that way.

A lot of police officers should be fired over this. If there is ever a situation that calls for shooting people, it's when a mob storms the U.S. Capitol. If the Secret Service hadn't protected the Senators, Representatives, and Vice President Pence, it could have been an absolute bloodbath. A huge portion of the US government was gathered there with a violent mob breaking into the building.

Interesting perspective. Obviously the UK is very different from the US, as neither the police nor the violent mob would have guns, but police training here would say that they did the right thing. Outnumbered and confronted with a few thousand armed, violent lunatics, better to let them in and out without provoking a firefight. Prevent the members of congress and media from being killed in a shooting match. You can look at the footage later and arrest people, you can pick up the US flags that they threw on the floor, you can repair buildings. For that level of insurrection to end peaceably and with only one death is something to be pleased about, IMO.

The real question is why, when it was obvious that this was a possibility, were no security precautions taken. Presumably Trump appointees were the ones in charge of making those decisions. Maybe there's also some doubt as to whether police officers would actually have followed orders to attack a bunch of overweight, middle-aged white people?

The threat was that the building was full of a huge portion of the US Government, including the entire House of Representatives, the entire Senate, and the Vice President. The mob could have captured and held hostage or -- I hate to even imagine it -- murdered members of government. The Secret Service did a fantastic job of protecting people, but the police should never have allowed the mob to get into the building. Too much was at stake. In my opinion, this was a situation where deadly force was absolutely called for.

I'm not sure if there was any violence involved, but if there was any legitimate threat of violence or impending violence to congressmen then deadly force should have been used.

Not shooting them will just embolden the insurrectionists.

I’m confused, do you not understand that someone, one of the protesters apparently, was shot and killed yesterday? Does that fulfill your requirement now that you know?

iris lily

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6449 on: January 07, 2021, 10:09:28 AM »
Would have been a scary sight in DC.

Surprised the police didn't shoot all the protestors. For all of the times that police in the states have been trigger happy, they seemed to use admirable restraint today.

Why are you surprised? These rioters were white.

They shot an unarmed woman in the chest.  How much blood do you wish to be spilled in the name of racial equality?

Ah, thanks, I had not read far enough down into this thread to see that you had posted this.

It’s a pretty big deal when the cops shoot a protester/rioter/coup instigator.  I sure wish we would  take it seriously. Funny that this thread is not taking it seriously.

That is not to say that whoever shot her wasn’t justified because I don’t know. Facts of that case will come out later.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 10:11:06 AM by iris lily »