Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 505424 times)

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6150 on: December 22, 2020, 06:22:15 PM »
None of will be surprised by the immediately-before-Christmas-when-people-are-distracted slate of 20 pardons that Trump just issued.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/politics/trump-pardons.html

Two salient paragraphs from the NYT article:

Quote
A tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith found that of the 45 pardons or commutations Mr. Trump had granted up until Tuesday, 88 percent aided someone with a personal tie to the president or furthered his political aims.

Not much to say on this other than that it continues to be an abuse of the intent or pardon power.

and
Quote
One of them, Nicholas Slatten, had been sentenced to life in prison after the Justice Department had gone to great lengths to prosecute him. Mr. Slatten had been a contractor for the controversial company Blackwater and was sentenced for his role in the killing of 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square in Baghdad — a massacre that left one of the most lasting stains on the United States of the war.

On the Blackwater contractor point, it is worth noting that Eric Prince, head of Blackwater, is related to Besty DeVos and has a clear political bent. For example, when he was eager to spy on Americans who leaned left:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html

Prince has a clear interest in his contractors being able to literally get away with murder. Our military operations should not be privatized and the existence of organizations like Blackwater are very problematic in my mind.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6151 on: December 22, 2020, 08:59:28 PM »
$4.99 a month!

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/michael-cohen-trump-election-cash-grab_n_5fe111ebc5b6ff74797c68ac

He has it all wrong. 20 million may pay that to year h8m, but how many more would pay that to have him literally just do nothing and STFU?

LOL!!! Sign me up!

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6152 on: December 23, 2020, 02:12:57 AM »
None of will be surprised by the immediately-before-Christmas-when-people-are-distracted slate of 20 pardons that Trump just issued.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/politics/trump-pardons.html

Two salient paragraphs from the NYT article:

Quote
A tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith found that of the 45 pardons or commutations Mr. Trump had granted up until Tuesday, 88 percent aided someone with a personal tie to the president or furthered his political aims.

Not much to say on this other than that it continues to be an abuse of the intent or pardon power.

and
Quote
One of them, Nicholas Slatten, had been sentenced to life in prison after the Justice Department had gone to great lengths to prosecute him. Mr. Slatten had been a contractor for the controversial company Blackwater and was sentenced for his role in the killing of 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square in Baghdad — a massacre that left one of the most lasting stains on the United States of the war.

On the Blackwater contractor point, it is worth noting that Eric Prince, head of Blackwater, is related to Besty DeVos and has a clear political bent. For example, when he was eager to spy on Americans who leaned left:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html

Prince has a clear interest in his contractors being able to literally get away with murder. Our military operations should not be privatized and the existence of organizations like Blackwater are very problematic in my mind.

The prerequisites for a Trump pardon: you murdered Arab/Afghan civilians, you were convicted of his breaking of elections laws, or you're a Republican politician who was convicted of a crime. Note that Duncan Hunter is on the list as well. Skimmed straight out of his reelection funds and tried to blame his wife.

BussoV6

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6153 on: December 23, 2020, 05:47:11 AM »
It's a sure bet that quite a few more scumbags will walk free before 20 January.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6154 on: December 23, 2020, 06:10:11 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting. 

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6155 on: December 23, 2020, 08:07:22 AM »
I read a reasonably crappy book (Total Power by Kyle Mills) a few weeks ago about this guy who hacked the US electric grid and tried to sell it around, eventually partnering with some middle eastern terrorists to actually bring down the grid. Chaos ensues, violence, looting, government on the verge of collapse, the usual fiction stuff. The premise seemed plausible and then the rest of the book went downhill.

In any case the author had a note at the end in which he commented that he was surprised how vulnerable our grid is as part of the research he did for his writing.

Now we have proof that we have been hacked and much more than what the book imagined, and I’m thinking back to what the author had imagined happening to our society should do one actually choose to pull the plug.

Can someone give me reasons why I shouldn’t think we could have things collapse around us should whoever holds the keys to the kingdom now think it would be fun to watch us struggle?

Someone more knowledgeable will likely chime in...  but I know enough to know that our electrical grid is very vulnerable and in need of hardening.  It is a significant amount of money but we would be DOA without the grid.
You want the read something really scary.  This is the actual research done by a respected journalist.  https://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/0553419986

nessness

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6156 on: December 23, 2020, 08:22:04 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.

Past presidents have mostly used the power to right perceived injustices, or to help the nation move on (such as Ford's pardon of Nixon).

Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6157 on: December 23, 2020, 08:42:11 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.

Past presidents have mostly used the power to right perceived injustices, or to help the nation move on (such as Ford's pardon of Nixon).

Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.

Regarding the bolded,

Trump administration: "Hold my beer."

(Also, pardoning himself will not protect him at all against charges filed at the state or municipal level. I don't know if he understands that pardoning himself would not be a "get out of jail free" card. I will not be surprised in the slightest if he flees the US.)

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6158 on: December 23, 2020, 09:12:47 AM »
Does this mean they know something we don’t or that this is more humoring the baby?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/23/joe-biden-trump-transition-live-updates/#link-GOAMGDKBKZHIFPJLPE4VQNVNQE

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6159 on: December 23, 2020, 09:25:26 AM »
Does this mean they know something we don’t or that this is more humoring the baby?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/23/joe-biden-trump-transition-live-updates/#link-GOAMGDKBKZHIFPJLPE4VQNVNQE

Washington Post is one of the most strictly paywalled news sources in existence, you should probably at least describe what you're talking about.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6160 on: December 23, 2020, 09:31:17 AM »
Yes, I cannot get into that article either.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6161 on: December 23, 2020, 09:43:08 AM »
Sorry - here’s the text:

Trump’s executive office sent an email to White House staff Tuesday night detailing the departure process ahead of Biden’s inauguration next month.
On Wednesday morning, a new email landed in staffers’ inboxes — this one telling them to ignore the previous message.

“Please disregard the below message,” reads the email, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Updated information will be shared in the coming days.”
The original email said staff members would begin leaving the White House on Jan. 5 and would receive their last paychecks in February. It also went over such details as returning stationery and office supplies and cleaning White House equipment, such as microwaves.
The mundane, bureaucratic email was circulated to every White House employee, according to two officials who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss the message.
The conflicting messages are the latest evidence of the dichotomy of many parts of his government seeking to facilitate a transition, while the president is stridently against one and falsely claims that he might have a second term.

Trump refuses to concede the election to Biden and continues to make baseless claims of widespread voter fraud. He has also been frustrated with his inner circle — including Vice President Pence, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows — saying that the officials around him are working to stymie his final hopes of overturning the election results, according to a White House official.

Attorney General William P. Barr said earlier this month that he has “not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” undercutting the claims that Trump and his allies have made — without evidence — of significant voting irregularities.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6162 on: December 23, 2020, 09:54:21 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.


I understand that, I remember Nixon's pardon.  What I don't understand is why it is in the constitution in the first place.  There are other ways to deal with wrongful conviction.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6163 on: December 23, 2020, 10:29:39 AM »
Some basic pardon history, which I think is useful context. It is written at about the level to be used in a high school book report (apologies, but don't expect deep legal analysis out of it):
https://www.whitehousehistory.org/the-history-of-the-pardon-power/

The last paragraph or the article seems a bit of a stretch and included for the present moment in history.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 10:32:02 AM by Glenstache »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6164 on: December 23, 2020, 11:26:51 AM »
Quote from: nessness link=topic=109023.msg2758138#msg2758138 
[/quote

Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited.

Presidents'  pardon power is plenary.


Ex parte Garland  (1866)

Congress can neither limit the effect of his pardon, nor exclude from its exercise any class of offenders. The benign prerogative of mercy reposed in him cannot be fettered by any legislative restrictions.



Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.


If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling that nullifies it.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

.



« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 11:31:23 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6165 on: December 23, 2020, 11:27:48 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.


I understand that, I remember Nixon's pardon.  What I don't understand is why it is in the constitution in the first place.  There are other ways to deal with wrongful conviction.

Like so much of our constitution, it goes back to the Brits, and the British Monarchy. In some ways the framers crafted the constitution as a reaction to the British monarchy (and to prevent the President from becoming an 'elected king'). But in other subtle and strange ways they modeled the executive branch after the King. 

The pardon power was one such example - the King had the power to pardon and grant clemency, and they thought that was an important enough power for an executive to have that they left it in.  Even then it was far from unanimous - there was a proposed amendment (originally to be included with the Bill of Rights) which would have curtailed a president's power in cases of treason and made them capable of being over-ridden by a Congressional veto.  That failed, in part because it was argued that the power of a pardon wasn't much of a power at all if it could be vetoed, and that a President who abused his pardon power would suffer politically during the next election (ergo: the voters would be another 'check' on this power).

Like in many other areas, Trump's tendancy to bust norms has shown how these powers can be abused.

Plina

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6166 on: December 23, 2020, 11:41:16 AM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6167 on: December 23, 2020, 11:58:18 AM »
Sorry - here’s the text:

Trump’s executive office sent an email to White House staff Tuesday night detailing the departure process ahead of Biden’s inauguration next month.
On Wednesday morning, a new email landed in staffers’ inboxes — this one telling them to ignore the previous message.

“Please disregard the below message,” reads the email, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Updated information will be shared in the coming days.”
The original email said staff members would begin leaving the White House on Jan. 5 and would receive their last paychecks in February. It also went over such details as returning stationery and office supplies and cleaning White House equipment, such as microwaves.
The mundane, bureaucratic email was circulated to every White House employee, according to two officials who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss the message.
The conflicting messages are the latest evidence of the dichotomy of many parts of his government seeking to facilitate a transition, while the president is stridently against one and falsely claims that he might have a second term.

Trump refuses to concede the election to Biden and continues to make baseless claims of widespread voter fraud. He has also been frustrated with his inner circle — including Vice President Pence, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows — saying that the officials around him are working to stymie his final hopes of overturning the election results, according to a White House official.

Attorney General William P. Barr said earlier this month that he has “not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” undercutting the claims that Trump and his allies have made — without evidence — of significant voting irregularities.

The email withdrawal is probably related to this: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mike-pence-could-go-rogue-when-congress-counts-electoral-votes-election-experts-warn-11608246200

Quote
On Jan. 6, a joint session of the new Congress will convene to count the electoral votes and declare the next president. Results will be announced alphabetically by state, and individual representatives and senators may object to those results in writing.

If both a representative and a senator agree to object to a state’s election results, the Senate and the House of Representatives will adjourn to their separate chambers to debate the matter for up to two hours and then hold a vote on whether to reject a slate of electors.

This scenario seems likely to happen, after several Republican representatives have come forward saying they will challenge results, while Alabama Republican Senator-elect Tommy Tuberville has said he might join in, despite Sen. Mitch McConnell urging his caucus not to.

Other conservatives have suggested that Vice President Mike Pence has the unilateral authority to reject slates of electors, based on language in the 12th Amendment.

Basically, MAGAworld is basing their hopes on the this check-and-balance failing on Jan. 6. They're still trying to cancel my and millions of other Americans' votes.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6168 on: December 23, 2020, 12:00:01 PM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.

He doesn't think that way. He thinks everyone is out to stick it to him and he is Little Mr. Innocent. So, to pardon himself would just be to protect himself from the big bad bullies. Because he has never done anything wrong or sleezy since he was...in his tiny little mind...the best President since Lincoln.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6169 on: December 23, 2020, 12:28:32 PM »
Trump's latest factually deficient twitter-rant about the Covid relief bill has me again wondering: Does he himself not understand what was a part of the Covid package, and/or does he just expect that his followers won't know the difference either?

In under two minutes Trump's video contained so many falsehoods and misrepresentations it would suggest that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  Except we know Trump loves to do everything to keep the attention on him - so perhaps he does, but doesn't care and knows his base will believe only him and won't know the difference.

Which is scarier? A president who doesn't understand the fundamentals of one of the largest and most important spending bills that his own appointee helped negotiate, or that he's willing to throw firebombs just hours after it passed following months of complex and at times nasty negotiations?

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6170 on: December 23, 2020, 12:34:01 PM »
Not really a Trump outrage but he's the root cause.

The Thomas More Society, et al, filed a DC Court lawsuit about the failure of the state legislatures (but only in the battleground states) to meet after the election. Or something.

One of the defendants is the Electoral College. Yes, really. Another defendant is Pence, a known Deep State operative.

Comical and pathetic.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6171 on: December 23, 2020, 12:41:06 PM »
Trump's latest factually deficient twitter-rant about the Covid relief bill has me again wondering: Does he himself not understand what was a part of the Covid package, and/or does he just expect that his followers won't know the difference either?

In under two minutes Trump's video contained so many falsehoods and misrepresentations it would suggest that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  Except we know Trump loves to do everything to keep the attention on him - so perhaps he does, but doesn't care and knows his base will believe only him and won't know the difference.

Which is scarier? A president who doesn't understand the fundamentals of one of the largest and most important spending bills that his own appointee helped negotiate, or that he's willing to throw firebombs just hours after it passed following months of complex and at times nasty negotiations?

Trump has never understood any of the legislation that has been passed, he's an illiterate dipshit. This isn't really new. He had no idea what was in the tax cut bill, or any other bill that congress has passed. He had no role in any of those bills, wasn't interested in it. If he wanted more payments to americans he could have been involved, but no, he has no real interest in that so he doesn't bother.

I wonder if this is just part of the spectacle of the whole thing. Dems passed multiple covid relief bills that were way more generous and helpful for working families, republicans said no and played hardball to create what is really a pretty garbage bill, Dems pass it and the Dem leadership celebrate it as a great bi-partisan solution then Trump rejects it and blames democrats. Dems just suck at this, instead of talking about what a great effort at bi-partisanship this was they should have been saying that the Republican senate sucks and wouldn't even discuss what dems want so they had to agree to something and this garbage bill is what they got because Trump and McConnell won't budge.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 01:00:21 PM by sixwings »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6172 on: December 23, 2020, 12:43:03 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6173 on: December 23, 2020, 01:01:10 PM »
Trump's latest factually deficient twitter-rant about the Covid relief bill has me again wondering: Does he himself not understand what was a part of the Covid package, and/or does he just expect that his followers won't know the difference either?

Yes.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6174 on: December 23, 2020, 01:05:53 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

Yeah, it's difficult to wrap my head around.

Their next hope is that Pence and the Senate+House will reject the battleground electors on Jan 6. I'm not sure how they think that'll go down since the full House votes on each challenge.

This is another glaring hole in the US system. If the current Trump GOP controlled Congress, there would be a strong possibility of electors being rejected.

It'll be interesting to see how McConnell votes in these challenges.

nessness

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6175 on: December 23, 2020, 01:08:56 PM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.
He'll just claim he's trying to prevent malicious prosecution from people who dislike him, and his supporters will buy it.

Remember, he's already claimed he's been subject to the greatest witch hunt in history (I guess he forgot about the literal witch hunts, where suspected witches were murdered), and that he's been treated worse than any president in history (I guess he forgot about all the presidents who were assassinated).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6176 on: December 23, 2020, 01:39:11 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

Yeah, it's difficult to wrap my head around.

Their next hope is that Pence and the Senate+House will reject the battleground electors on Jan 6. I'm not sure how they think that'll go down since the full House votes on each challenge.

This is another glaring hole in the US system. If the current Trump GOP controlled Congress, there would be a strong possibility of electors being rejected.

It'll be interesting to see how McConnell votes in these challenges.

Does the full House vote or is the vote apportioned by which party holds that state’s legislature? The latter is what is very worrying.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6177 on: December 23, 2020, 01:51:51 PM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.

Indeed, a  pardonee can never escape  opprobrium for their misdeed(s) because  a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."





BURDICK v. UNITED STATES
(1915)

This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial.  the latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 01:53:50 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6178 on: December 23, 2020, 01:56:35 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

Yeah, it's difficult to wrap my head around.

Their next hope is that Pence and the Senate+House will reject the battleground electors on Jan 6. I'm not sure how they think that'll go down since the full House votes on each challenge.

This is another glaring hole in the US system. If the current Trump GOP controlled Congress, there would be a strong possibility of electors being rejected.

It'll be interesting to see how McConnell votes in these challenges.

Does the full House vote or is the vote apportioned by which party holds that state’s legislature? The latter is what is very worrying.

This law needs a Seldon Foundation parser but nothing in it mentions one vote per state. (Edit: Misread the question.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15


Edit: The law also mentions electors from different state authorities: "two or more of such State authorities." I don't believe any of the battleground states have dual electors. In 2000, Florida was about to nominate a 2nd group but the SC intervened before they did so.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 02:19:42 PM by bacchi »

Plina

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6179 on: December 23, 2020, 02:40:28 PM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.
He'll just claim he's trying to prevent malicious prosecution from people who dislike him, and his supporters will buy it.

Remember, he's already claimed he's been subject to the greatest witch hunt in history (I guess he forgot about the literal witch hunts, where suspected witches were murdered), and that he's been treated worse than any president in history (I guess he forgot about all the presidents who were assassinated).

Yes, he probably would get away with hos voters but he should have someone point out to him that his voters are not writing the history books so even if he has been or would be maliciously prosecuted, the history books would probably see it as an admission of guilt ( even thought that would of course not be the case for the best president in the history).

Actually, it would be pretty interesting to see if he manage to pull that off and how he would justify it.

Sometimes, I wish I could live in an alternative reality as he and his voters.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6180 on: December 23, 2020, 05:36:35 PM »
... and so it continues with pardons for: Manafort, Stone (previously commuted), and Charles Kushner.

katsiki

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6181 on: December 23, 2020, 07:20:17 PM »
I read a reasonably crappy book (Total Power by Kyle Mills) a few weeks ago about this guy who hacked the US electric grid and tried to sell it around, eventually partnering with some middle eastern terrorists to actually bring down the grid. Chaos ensues, violence, looting, government on the verge of collapse, the usual fiction stuff. The premise seemed plausible and then the rest of the book went downhill.

In any case the author had a note at the end in which he commented that he was surprised how vulnerable our grid is as part of the research he did for his writing.

Now we have proof that we have been hacked and much more than what the book imagined, and I’m thinking back to what the author had imagined happening to our society should do one actually choose to pull the plug.

Can someone give me reasons why I shouldn’t think we could have things collapse around us should whoever holds the keys to the kingdom now think it would be fun to watch us struggle?

Someone more knowledgeable will likely chime in...  but I know enough to know that our electrical grid is very vulnerable and in need of hardening.  It is a significant amount of money but we would be DOA without the grid.
You want the read something really scary.  This is the actual research done by a respected journalist.  https://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/0553419986

Thanks!  I remember hearing about this book but had completely forgotten.  Adding to library list...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6182 on: December 23, 2020, 10:41:50 PM »
None of will be surprised by the immediately-before-Christmas-when-people-are-distracted slate of 20 pardons that Trump just issued.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/politics/trump-pardons.html

Two salient paragraphs from the NYT article:

Quote
A tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith found that of the 45 pardons or commutations Mr. Trump had granted up until Tuesday, 88 percent aided someone with a personal tie to the president or furthered his political aims.

Not much to say on this other than that it continues to be an abuse of the intent or pardon power.

and
Quote
One of them, Nicholas Slatten, had been sentenced to life in prison after the Justice Department had gone to great lengths to prosecute him. Mr. Slatten had been a contractor for the controversial company Blackwater and was sentenced for his role in the killing of 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square in Baghdad — a massacre that left one of the most lasting stains on the United States of the war.

On the Blackwater contractor point, it is worth noting that Eric Prince, head of Blackwater, is related to Besty DeVos and has a clear political bent. For example, when he was eager to spy on Americans who leaned left:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html

Prince has a clear interest in his contractors being able to literally get away with murder. Our military operations should not be privatized and the existence of organizations like Blackwater are very problematic in my mind.

The prerequisites for a Trump pardon: you murdered Arab/Afghan civilians, you were convicted of his breaking of elections laws, or you're a Republican politician who was convicted of a crime. Note that Duncan Hunter is on the list as well. Skimmed straight out of his reelection funds and tried to put it all on his wife.

And her name wasn't on the pardon list. She's still in prison for her part of the scandal.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6183 on: December 23, 2020, 10:48:49 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

Yeah, it's difficult to wrap my head around.

Their next hope is that Pence and the Senate+House will reject the battleground electors on Jan 6. I'm not sure how they think that'll go down since the full House votes on each challenge.

This is another glaring hole in the US system. If the current Trump GOP controlled Congress, there would be a strong possibility of electors being rejected.

It'll be interesting to see how McConnell votes in these challenges.

Does the full House vote or is the vote apportioned by which party holds that state’s legislature? The latter is what is very worrying.

This law needs a Seldon Foundation parser but nothing in it mentions one vote per state. (Edit: Misread the question.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15


Edit: The law also mentions electors from different state authorities: "two or more of such State authorities." I don't believe any of the battleground states have dual electors. In 2000, Florida was about to nominate a 2nd group but the SC intervened before they did so.

This is kind of interesting, written sometime last year, laying out a scenario of a disputed election with two slates of electors in contrasting swing states (which did not actually happen).

https://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/law/students/publications/llj/pdfs/vol-51/issue-2/7_Foley%20(309-362).pdf

The Appendix parses out 3 U.S.C. § 15.

What do the lawyers here make of this?



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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6184 on: December 24, 2020, 12:29:05 AM »

Trump has never understood any of the legislation that has been passed, he's an illiterate dipshit. This isn't really new. He had no idea what was in the tax cut bill, or any other bill that congress has passed. He had no role in any of those bills, wasn't interested in it. If he wanted more payments to americans he could have been involved, but no, he has no real interest in that so he doesn't bother.

I wonder if this is just part of the spectacle of the whole thing. Dems passed multiple covid relief bills that were way more generous and helpful for working families, republicans said no and played hardball to create what is really a pretty garbage bill, Dems pass it and the Dem leadership celebrate it as a great bi-partisan solution then Trump rejects it and blames democrats. Dems just suck at this, instead of talking about what a great effort at bi-partisanship this was they should have been saying that the Republican senate sucks and wouldn't even discuss what dems want so they had to agree to something and this garbage bill is what they got because Trump and McConnell won't budge.

The most believable analysis I've seen is that Trump is threatening to veto the bill solely to get back at Mitch, because he's trying to ensure he retains control of the Republican party even after he leaves office.  So he's trying to make the bill fail and/or make it look like Mitch 'caved' to the Democrats.

I agree with you that what got passed was a crap bill in terms of Covid relief, but I've reluctantly come to believe that the Democrats had to pass it, if only because the Republicans have proven over and over that they are perfectly willing to not only take the American people hostage, but shoot them if necessary (see: 300K dead and counting).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6185 on: December 24, 2020, 09:02:48 AM »
Yeah they did because Democrats actually care about people but their messaging sucked. They starting talking about how proud they were of this bi-partisan effort and bill blah blah blah. They should have been saying this bill sucks, it needed a lot more, it needed more direct payments, but this is all that republicans are willing to give you. It set them up perfectly to look foolish on this.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6186 on: December 24, 2020, 11:01:32 AM »
So Trump can't take bribes for pardons, officially.  Of course, he can't use his office to benefit himself either and he's been doing that blatantly and egregiously for 4 years now.

What is the over/under on Trump pardoning a massive crowd of rich people who have coincidentally donated money to his 'Stop the steal' grift campaign, then following up with a broad self-pardon for all of it - including taking bribes for pardons.

It will go to the courts, but it will be such a mess that after a year or so most people will stop paying attention.  His whole life he's used lawyers to avoid consequence, there is no reason this will be different.  Look at how much effort went into getting access to his tax returns, for example.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6187 on: December 24, 2020, 12:43:52 PM »
So Trump can't take bribes for pardons, officially.  Of course, he can't use his office to benefit himself either and he's been doing that blatantly and egregiously for 4 years now.

What is the over/under on Trump pardoning a massive crowd of rich people who have coincidentally donated money to his 'Stop the steal' grift campaign, then following up with a broad self-pardon for all of it - including taking bribes for pardons.

It will go to the courts, but it will be such a mess that after a year or so most people will stop paying attention.  His whole life he's used lawyers to avoid consequence, there is no reason this will be different.  Look at how much effort went into getting access to his tax returns, for example.

There's a downside though to accepting a pardon. It leaves them open to Civil liability. So a pardon in a way maybe a way for them to get a do over, but they would basically have to pay back all the money that they've stolen plus some.

Being pardoned means that you can no longer be protected by the 5th Amendment, so any crimes that have Civil suits attached to them become much more open and shut cases. They'll avoid jail time, but they'd end up losing most if not more money than they started with. Or face jail time for obstruction of justice if they don't confess. Congress could even fine Trump and all of his children daily if they don't talk.

How many of these Trump associates will now be forced to testify against Trump and his family? They certainly know many misdeeds, and if they don't talk, they'll almost certainly face more obstruction charges.

All of Trump's tax records or finances would no longer be protected, and a complete a through accounting of all of his business dealings would almost certainly become public record. And Trump would no doubt owe huge sums of back taxes. (Especially under a Biden IRS which will return to actually pursuing this sort of work).

It's corrupt as anything, but Trump pardoning himself may actually harm him more financially than if he just tried to go quiet into the night.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6188 on: December 24, 2020, 07:51:49 PM »
Congress could even fine Trump and all of his children daily if they don't talk.

How many of these Trump associates will now be forced to testify against Trump and his family? They certainly know many misdeeds, and if they don't talk, they'll almost certainly face more obstruction charges.


Wiping your ass with a Congressional subpoena, or committing blatant perjury in front of them - great traditions of the American elite.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6189 on: December 25, 2020, 03:03:59 PM »
This is an interesting article. According to this article people are still betting that Trump will win the election? Honestly I was not sure that Biden would win, despite projections and Trump's historic unlikability. However that people bet for Trump winning even if making virtually nothing, and even AFTER the election is over, boggles the mind.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-betting-markets-sportsbooks-offshore-2020-election-gambling.html?fbclid=IwAR2xuKoT1YLImjuhCONdzsd2sLD1WsQOsHl94O4Xd_2BpySxTE66vhrf9JA

Yeah, it's difficult to wrap my head around.

Their next hope is that Pence and the Senate+House will reject the battleground electors on Jan 6. I'm not sure how they think that'll go down since the full House votes on each challenge.

This is another glaring hole in the US system. If the current Trump GOP controlled Congress, there would be a strong possibility of electors being rejected.

It'll be interesting to see how McConnell votes in these challenges.

Does the full House vote or is the vote apportioned by which party holds that state’s legislature? The latter is what is very worrying.

At some point it goes back to the state official who sent their delegation to verify they got the correct electoral votes.  Which in the case of Michigan would have Gov. Whitmer, a Democrats getting to say, he’ll yes the voters of MI voted for Biden etc.

meghan88

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6190 on: December 25, 2020, 03:15:28 PM »
Could a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell be in the cards?

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6191 on: December 25, 2020, 03:36:52 PM »
Could a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell be in the cards?
At his current rate I wouldn't rule out pardons for anyone up to and including Charles Manson and the unabomber.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6192 on: December 25, 2020, 04:32:04 PM »
Could a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell be in the cards?
At his current rate I wouldn't rule out pardons for anyone up to and including Charles Manson and the unabomber.

Trump will only pardon those of some value to him.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6193 on: December 25, 2020, 05:14:19 PM »
Thanks!  I remember hearing about this book but had completely forgotten.  Adding to library list...

Nashville? AT&T?

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6194 on: December 25, 2020, 05:33:51 PM »
Thanks!  I remember hearing about this book but had completely forgotten.  Adding to library list...

Nashville? AT&T?

It certainly does seem to have been a test attack on infrastructure.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6195 on: December 25, 2020, 05:53:02 PM »
Friends in and near Nashville report that part of the mobile phone infrastructure, part of the 911 service and some internet services were unavailable afterwards.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6196 on: December 25, 2020, 06:04:21 PM »
Friends in and near Nashville report that part of the mobile phone infrastructure, part of the 911 service and some internet services were unavailable afterwards.

BNA airport in Nashville had to ground flights earlier today.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6197 on: December 27, 2020, 08:06:40 AM »
So, Trump refused to sign the relief bill, which cuts off unemployment benefits. He was more or less MIA during the long and contentious negotiations to get the bill through Congress and then issues ultimatums on content at the last minute and after bites have been cast. This wasn't a negotiation, it was a petulant temper tantrum with total disregard for the impacts to Americans. See also the veto if the defense bill.

It is as deranged as the asshole who would throw acid on a lover of they couldn't have them.  I feel like we don't so much need him out if office so much as we need a restraining order.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 08:10:09 AM by Glenstache »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6198 on: December 27, 2020, 08:16:35 AM »
Friends in and near Nashville report that part of the mobile phone infrastructure, part of the 911 service and some internet services were unavailable afterwards.

And remain unavailable. Large parts of several local hospital communications are down, too. Hell, Walmart can’t take cards and the ATMs are also down.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6199 on: December 27, 2020, 09:09:35 AM »
So, Trump refused to sign the relief bill, which cuts off unemployment benefits. He was more or less MIA during the long and contentious negotiations to get the bill through Congress and then issues ultimatums on content at the last minute and after bites have been cast. This wasn't a negotiation, it was a petulant temper tantrum with total disregard for the impacts to Americans. See also the veto if the defense bill.

It is as deranged as the asshole who would throw acid on a lover of they couldn't have them.  I feel like we don't so much need him out if office so much as we need a restraining order.
It is such an incredibly asshole-y thing to do. I should be surprised, but damn. A toddler throwing a big tantrum and breaking all the toys so that no one else can enjoy them.