Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681539 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6100 on: December 19, 2020, 06:38:32 PM »
I hope the power grid has improved since the 2003 blackout, but I'm not hugely optimistic.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6101 on: December 20, 2020, 01:54:42 AM »
I have few issues selling to a private consortium of investors. Most of us draw a line when that investor has links to a foreign authoritarian government.
I'd think that the biggest issue is that the sellers want a specific price which is often the limiting factor for who is willing to buy.

In my country there were a lot of chinese family restaurants who kept really low prices, basically killing each other in competition. Nowadays those families are buying out another market where basically the same thing is happening. Prices are set really low because half their income isn't reported to the tax department, and they also save a ton for their offspring to go to college and keep loans and such to a minimum. Then other businesses from non chinese families take a hit because they can't match the price and put their shop up for sale. With an asking price far above what any sane businessperson would want to pay because the loan would be a huge drag on the business.
Then comes the next Chinese family that doesn't need a bank loan and the cycle continues.

Chinese families have a sort of mustachianism ingrained in them when they go to another country, this usually gets less pronounced with 2nd and 3rd generation. One of the core standpoints is that saved money is for the family. When you get married there is often a big party with lots of family donating money with the understanding that you buy a house with little or no mortgage and start saving to return the favour for their children.
Basically it's a family bank like construction built on trust.

To be fair, I'm married into a Chinese family and can see the inner workings a bit ;)

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ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6104 on: December 20, 2020, 01:04:42 PM »
And this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/trump-covid-pandemic-dark-winter/?itid=hp-top-table-main
Maybe it isn’t clear to everyone but the glaring lack of leadership at the federal level, particularly from the president is stunning. When I worked at a large government contractor I participated in a few failure investigations when things went really wrong with hardware we were building. Something broke or didn’t pass tests, paint peeled off, whatever, with big financial and schedule implications. Clearly these situations were orders of magnitude less grave than a pandemic with people dying, and yet the response teams seemed more coherent.

I saw conference rooms commandeered and set up as war rooms, multiple daily standing meetings, often seven days a week, to bring the entire team together to communicate updates, set priorities, share progress, and make sure everyone had a shared vision for what to do that day. Experts were divided up, failure fishbones were done to explore every possible cause and then work on mitigations, the person in charge kept track of resources, cost, schedule, and balanced competing priorities for those resources. That person critically made tough decisions with imperfect information and accepted the consequences of them because sitting around dithering was often worse than making a decision with best info available. That head person kept the team informed and also kept the head leadership of the company informed, while protecting the worker bees from the higher ups do they could stay focused.

Imagine if we had leadership like that from the start of the pandemic? One thing I learned from working these crises is that when SHTF, one strong leader is critically important. Unfortunately for us hundreds of thousands of people in the US are dying heedlessly due to the lack of such leadership.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6105 on: December 20, 2020, 03:07:26 PM »
And this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/trump-covid-pandemic-dark-winter/?itid=hp-top-table-main
Maybe it isn’t clear to everyone but the glaring lack of leadership at the federal level, particularly from the president is stunning. When I worked at a large government contractor I participated in a few failure investigations when things went really wrong with hardware we were building. Something broke or didn’t pass tests, paint peeled off, whatever, with big financial and schedule implications. Clearly these situations were orders of magnitude less grave than a pandemic with people dying, and yet the response teams seemed more coherent.

I saw conference rooms commandeered and set up as war rooms, multiple daily standing meetings, often seven days a week, to bring the entire team together to communicate updates, set priorities, share progress, and make sure everyone had a shared vision for what to do that day. Experts were divided up, failure fishbones were done to explore every possible cause and then work on mitigations, the person in charge kept track of resources, cost, schedule, and balanced competing priorities for those resources. That person critically made tough decisions with imperfect information and accepted the consequences of them because sitting around dithering was often worse than making a decision with best info available. That head person kept the team informed and also kept the head leadership of the company informed, while protecting the worker bees from the higher ups do they could stay focused.

Imagine if we had leadership like that from the start of the pandemic? One thing I learned from working these crises is that when SHTF, one strong leader is critically important. Unfortunately for us hundreds of thousands of people in the US are dying heedlessly due to the lack of such leadership.

There are too many people who don’t consider this when deciding whom to vote for.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6106 on: December 20, 2020, 03:37:58 PM »
And this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/trump-covid-pandemic-dark-winter/?itid=hp-top-table-main
Maybe it isn’t clear to everyone but the glaring lack of leadership at the federal level, particularly from the president is stunning. When I worked at a large government contractor I participated in a few failure investigations when things went really wrong with hardware we were building. Something broke or didn’t pass tests, paint peeled off, whatever, with big financial and schedule implications. Clearly these situations were orders of magnitude less grave than a pandemic with people dying, and yet the response teams seemed more coherent.

I saw conference rooms commandeered and set up as war rooms, multiple daily standing meetings, often seven days a week, to bring the entire team together to communicate updates, set priorities, share progress, and make sure everyone had a shared vision for what to do that day. Experts were divided up, failure fishbones were done to explore every possible cause and then work on mitigations, the person in charge kept track of resources, cost, schedule, and balanced competing priorities for those resources. That person critically made tough decisions with imperfect information and accepted the consequences of them because sitting around dithering was often worse than making a decision with best info available. That head person kept the team informed and also kept the head leadership of the company informed, while protecting the worker bees from the higher ups do they could stay focused.

Imagine if we had leadership like that from the start of the pandemic? One thing I learned from working these crises is that when SHTF, one strong leader is critically important. Unfortunately for us hundreds of thousands of people in the US are dying heedlessly due to the lack of such leadership.

There are too many people who don’t consider this when deciding whom to vote for.
A lot of people did see Trump as "strong" because they believed the rhetoric and saw him as a competent manager because they saw him on The Apprentice.  The problem is not necessarily what people want, it's being able to judge when they are being lied to.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6107 on: December 20, 2020, 04:49:13 PM »
A lot of people did see Trump as "strong" because they believed the rhetoric and saw him as a competent manager because they saw him on The Apprentice.  The problem is not necessarily what people want, it's being able to judge when they are being lied to.
I think most people knew they were being lied to.  It was just that it was a lie they wanted to hear and were willing to believe.  The proportion of people who are dumb enough to not realise they were being lied to is rather small I think.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6108 on: December 20, 2020, 06:01:35 PM »
A lot of people did see Trump as "strong" because they believed the rhetoric and saw him as a competent manager because they saw him on The Apprentice.  The problem is not necessarily what people want, it's being able to judge when they are being lied to.
I think most people knew they were being lied to.  It was just that it was a lie they wanted to hear and were willing to believe.  The proportion of people who are dumb enough to not realise they were being lied to is rather small I think.
For most Trump supporters I’ve talked to it comes down to “...but Hillary!

To them, even a factionalized, made-for-TV caricature of a “successful businessmen” is so obviously better than ‘Crooked Hillary’ that they snort at any suggestion he’s not what he pretends to be.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6109 on: December 20, 2020, 06:25:54 PM »
We've all witnessed the average working person's opinions on a regular basis.

What worries the big money GOP donors about Biden? Presumably they may be better informed than the average person? Or am I completely wrong about this?


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6110 on: December 20, 2020, 06:56:44 PM »
And this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/trump-covid-pandemic-dark-winter/?itid=hp-top-table-main
Maybe it isn’t clear to everyone but the glaring lack of leadership at the federal level, particularly from the president is stunning. When I worked at a large government contractor I participated in a few failure investigations when things went really wrong with hardware we were building. Something broke or didn’t pass tests, paint peeled off, whatever, with big financial and schedule implications. Clearly these situations were orders of magnitude less grave than a pandemic with people dying, and yet the response teams seemed more coherent.

I saw conference rooms commandeered and set up as war rooms, multiple daily standing meetings, often seven days a week, to bring the entire team together to communicate updates, set priorities, share progress, and make sure everyone had a shared vision for what to do that day. Experts were divided up, failure fishbones were done to explore every possible cause and then work on mitigations, the person in charge kept track of resources, cost, schedule, and balanced competing priorities for those resources. That person critically made tough decisions with imperfect information and accepted the consequences of them because sitting around dithering was often worse than making a decision with best info available. That head person kept the team informed and also kept the head leadership of the company informed, while protecting the worker bees from the higher ups do they could stay focused.

Imagine if we had leadership like that from the start of the pandemic? One thing I learned from working these crises is that when SHTF, one strong leader is critically important. Unfortunately for us hundreds of thousands of people in the US are dying heedlessly due to the lack of such leadership.

Yes, it is absolutely stunning. The Trump administration fumbled even the easiest wins teed up for them. How hard could it have been to manufacture masks and other PPE? To pass a comprehensive stimulus? To not infect everyone in the White House with covid? Too hard for Trump, apparently.

Have you read The Fifth Risk by Michael Lewis? The GoodReads page sums it up well- "The Fifth Risk masterfully and vividly unspools the consequences of what happens when the people given control over our government have no idea how it works."

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/46266188

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6111 on: December 20, 2020, 08:47:39 PM »
I haven’t read it, but thanks for the sighed took. I’ll add it to my list.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6112 on: December 21, 2020, 04:18:11 AM »
Funny how Trump can generate hundreds of lies a day but couldn't manufacture 'fake' lies for the pandemic. Fake 'Caring' about people, sickness and death rates from Covid. Considering it was an election year, you would think he would have kicked in his fake caring powers to show the people he was going to protect them and help them get thru these bad times. People want to think of their president as a Daddy figure. The one who will make sure their are no monsters under the bed. The one that will hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be alright. He can't fake caring because he has no ability to care. He could have given fake short caring speeches then handed over the podium to one of his appointed goons to oversee getting protective gear to the public, medicines and in the end take all the credit, as he always does. He could have said that he did it all to help and protect the American people. He was too dumb to even fake caring in an election year! When he finally doled out supplies, he had to make it sound like he was doing States a favor and was stingy if the State was run by Democrats. Seriously, is this a way for a president to act? Withhold needed supplies unless he got something out of it. UGH! He could have played 3 of the characters in the Wizard of Oz because he has no brain, no heart and no courage.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6113 on: December 21, 2020, 06:53:44 AM »
Funny how Trump can generate hundreds of lies a day but couldn't manufacture 'fake' lies for the pandemic. Fake 'Caring' about people, sickness and death rates from Covid. Considering it was an election year, you would think he would have kicked in his fake caring powers to show the people he was going to protect them and help them get thru these bad times. People want to think of their president as a Daddy figure. The one who will make sure their are no monsters under the bed. The one that will hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be alright. He can't fake caring because he has no ability to care. He could have given fake short caring speeches then handed over the podium to one of his appointed goons to oversee getting protective gear to the public, medicines and in the end take all the credit, as he always does. He could have said that he did it all to help and protect the American people. He was too dumb to even fake caring in an election year! When he finally doled out supplies, he had to make it sound like he was doing States a favor and was stingy if the State was run by Democrats. Seriously, is this a way for a president to act? Withhold needed supplies unless he got something out of it. UGH! He could have played 3 of the characters in the Wizard of Oz because he has no brain, no heart and no courage.

@Roadrunner53 , to Trump supporters there are monsters against whom he's protecting them. The monsters who will take their guns so they can bring socialism, gay marriage, and birth control.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6114 on: December 21, 2020, 07:47:52 AM »
Clinton didn't take away their guns, Obama didn't take away their guns, and Biden won't take away their guns.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6115 on: December 21, 2020, 07:48:49 AM »
Clinton didn't take away their guns, Obama didn't take away their guns, and Biden won't take away their guns.

Trump took away their bump stocks, though.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6116 on: December 21, 2020, 08:43:06 AM »
Isn't it strange how Trump manages to make progress where others fail. Bump Stock ban...done! Economic stimulus...no problem (in the Spring)! Criminal Justice Reform...make a few calls to Kim Kardashian and check that box!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6117 on: December 21, 2020, 09:20:24 AM »
Clinton didn't take away their guns, Obama didn't take away their guns, and Biden won't take away their guns.

The Pro-Big-Gun faction will emphatically inform you that Bill Clinton signed into law the 10-year ban on assault-style weapons in 1994, and that it was authored by Democrat Diane Feinstein.  The ban expired under G.W. Bush. Likewise, the 'Brady Bill' mandating federal background checks on handguns was also signed into law by Clinton

I agree that no one "took away their guns" nor will Biden (the ban apllied only to newly manufactured weapons).  But it's created an enduring perception among gun advocates that Democrats will

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6118 on: December 21, 2020, 10:15:18 AM »
And that enduring perception has been helped along with the conservative talking heads. This benefits the gun industry.

Meanwhile many thousands of families would be better off spending their money elsewhere than on redundant weapons and ammo plus all the accessories. I know of a few that have stretched their family budget b/c of sloppy spending on things like this. A working father/husband does not need more toys like these when the family car needs tires or the house needs repairs.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6119 on: December 21, 2020, 10:18:28 AM »
Funny how Trump can generate hundreds of lies a day but couldn't manufacture 'fake' lies for the pandemic. Fake 'Caring' about people, sickness and death rates from Covid. Considering it was an election year, you would think he would have kicked in his fake caring powers to show the people he was going to protect them and help them get thru these bad times. People want to think of their president as a Daddy figure. The one who will make sure their are no monsters under the bed. The one that will hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be alright. He can't fake caring because he has no ability to care. He could have given fake short caring speeches then handed over the podium to one of his appointed goons to oversee getting protective gear to the public, medicines and in the end take all the credit, as he always does. He could have said that he did it all to help and protect the American people. He was too dumb to even fake caring in an election year! When he finally doled out supplies, he had to make it sound like he was doing States a favor and was stingy if the State was run by Democrats. Seriously, is this a way for a president to act? Withhold needed supplies unless he got something out of it. UGH! He could have played 3 of the characters in the Wizard of Oz because he has no brain, no heart and no courage.

@Roadrunner53 , to Trump supporters there are monsters against whom he's protecting them. The monsters who will take their guns so they can bring socialism, gay marriage, and birth control.

Don't forget: One World Gubmint!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6120 on: December 21, 2020, 11:48:59 AM »
Funny how Trump can generate hundreds of lies a day but couldn't manufacture 'fake' lies for the pandemic. Fake 'Caring' about people, sickness and death rates from Covid. Considering it was an election year, you would think he would have kicked in his fake caring powers to show the people he was going to protect them and help them get thru these bad times. People want to think of their president as a Daddy figure. The one who will make sure their are no monsters under the bed. The one that will hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be alright. He can't fake caring because he has no ability to care. He could have given fake short caring speeches then handed over the podium to one of his appointed goons to oversee getting protective gear to the public, medicines and in the end take all the credit, as he always does. He could have said that he did it all to help and protect the American people. He was too dumb to even fake caring in an election year! When he finally doled out supplies, he had to make it sound like he was doing States a favor and was stingy if the State was run by Democrats. Seriously, is this a way for a president to act? Withhold needed supplies unless he got something out of it. UGH! He could have played 3 of the characters in the Wizard of Oz because he has no brain, no heart and no courage.

@Roadrunner53 , to Trump supporters there are monsters against whom he's protecting them. The monsters who will take their guns so they can bring socialism, gay marriage, and birth control.

Is the birth control a problem because they want more abortions to happen?

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6121 on: December 21, 2020, 01:27:58 PM »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6122 on: December 21, 2020, 01:41:55 PM »
OMG! They have included $1.4 Billion for Trumps stupid wall!

https://nypost.com/2020/12/21/treasury-secretary-mnuchin-says-stimulus-checks-could-arrive-next-week/

They did that last year too. Seems to be a requirement these days if you want Trump to sign the budget. A billion sounds like a lot but doesn't actually go very far on a project of that scale.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6123 on: December 21, 2020, 01:52:01 PM »
OMG! They have included $1.4 Billion for Trumps stupid wall!

https://nypost.com/2020/12/21/treasury-secretary-mnuchin-says-stimulus-checks-could-arrive-next-week/

They did that last year too. Seems to be a requirement these days if you want Trump to sign the budget. A billion sounds like a lot but doesn't actually go very far on a project of that scale.

So when does Mexico start paying for it?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6124 on: December 21, 2020, 02:09:04 PM »
How much of that $1.4 billion can he spend in a month?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6125 on: December 21, 2020, 02:43:03 PM »
How much of that $1.4 billion can he spend in a month?
How many of his kids does he get to "hire" to help? I'm sure Ivanaka's consulting is worth at least a hundred mil a week.

Plina

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6126 on: December 21, 2020, 03:14:51 PM »
Thanks for voting him away. The newspapers have been almost Trump free for a while. It is such a relief to not see the constant headlines of the latest crazyness even though I started to skip them a long time ago.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6127 on: December 21, 2020, 05:07:39 PM »
Thanks for voting him away. The newspapers have been almost Trump free for a while. It is such a relief to not see the constant headlines of the latest crazyness even though I started to skip them a long time ago.

There's a giant sign outside the entrance to our base in Korea that says "THE DEAD DON'T GET TO VOTE!" "WE SUPPORT YOU TRUMP!"  The people who put up those signs staged a protest over the weekend outside the gate. "Protest" around here means 10 people shouting at a wall.

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economista

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6129 on: December 22, 2020, 07:02:28 AM »
Funny how Trump can generate hundreds of lies a day but couldn't manufacture 'fake' lies for the pandemic. Fake 'Caring' about people, sickness and death rates from Covid. Considering it was an election year, you would think he would have kicked in his fake caring powers to show the people he was going to protect them and help them get thru these bad times. People want to think of their president as a Daddy figure. The one who will make sure their are no monsters under the bed. The one that will hold your hand and tell you everything is going to be alright. He can't fake caring because he has no ability to care. He could have given fake short caring speeches then handed over the podium to one of his appointed goons to oversee getting protective gear to the public, medicines and in the end take all the credit, as he always does. He could have said that he did it all to help and protect the American people. He was too dumb to even fake caring in an election year! When he finally doled out supplies, he had to make it sound like he was doing States a favor and was stingy if the State was run by Democrats. Seriously, is this a way for a president to act? Withhold needed supplies unless he got something out of it. UGH! He could have played 3 of the characters in the Wizard of Oz because he has no brain, no heart and no courage.

@Roadrunner53 , to Trump supporters there are monsters against whom he's protecting them. The monsters who will take their guns so they can bring socialism, gay marriage, and birth control.

Is the birth control a problem because they want more abortions to happen?

Quite a few Christians, mainly Catholics, believe any form of chemical birth control IS an abortion. Full disclosure, I am a catholic and I think this theory is kooky, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard that illogical argument.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6130 on: December 22, 2020, 09:10:25 AM »
$4.99 a month!

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/michael-cohen-trump-election-cash-grab_n_5fe111ebc5b6ff74797c68ac

He has it all wrong. 20 million may pay that to year h8m, but how many more would pay that to have him literally just do nothing and STFU?

MudPuppy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6131 on: December 22, 2020, 01:41:05 PM »
A bargain of a subscription service

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6132 on: December 22, 2020, 06:22:15 PM »
None of will be surprised by the immediately-before-Christmas-when-people-are-distracted slate of 20 pardons that Trump just issued.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/politics/trump-pardons.html

Two salient paragraphs from the NYT article:

Quote
A tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith found that of the 45 pardons or commutations Mr. Trump had granted up until Tuesday, 88 percent aided someone with a personal tie to the president or furthered his political aims.

Not much to say on this other than that it continues to be an abuse of the intent or pardon power.

and
Quote
One of them, Nicholas Slatten, had been sentenced to life in prison after the Justice Department had gone to great lengths to prosecute him. Mr. Slatten had been a contractor for the controversial company Blackwater and was sentenced for his role in the killing of 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square in Baghdad — a massacre that left one of the most lasting stains on the United States of the war.

On the Blackwater contractor point, it is worth noting that Eric Prince, head of Blackwater, is related to Besty DeVos and has a clear political bent. For example, when he was eager to spy on Americans who leaned left:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html

Prince has a clear interest in his contractors being able to literally get away with murder. Our military operations should not be privatized and the existence of organizations like Blackwater are very problematic in my mind.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6133 on: December 22, 2020, 08:59:28 PM »
$4.99 a month!

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/michael-cohen-trump-election-cash-grab_n_5fe111ebc5b6ff74797c68ac

He has it all wrong. 20 million may pay that to year h8m, but how many more would pay that to have him literally just do nothing and STFU?

LOL!!! Sign me up!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6134 on: December 23, 2020, 02:12:57 AM »
None of will be surprised by the immediately-before-Christmas-when-people-are-distracted slate of 20 pardons that Trump just issued.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/22/us/politics/trump-pardons.html

Two salient paragraphs from the NYT article:

Quote
A tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith found that of the 45 pardons or commutations Mr. Trump had granted up until Tuesday, 88 percent aided someone with a personal tie to the president or furthered his political aims.

Not much to say on this other than that it continues to be an abuse of the intent or pardon power.

and
Quote
One of them, Nicholas Slatten, had been sentenced to life in prison after the Justice Department had gone to great lengths to prosecute him. Mr. Slatten had been a contractor for the controversial company Blackwater and was sentenced for his role in the killing of 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square in Baghdad — a massacre that left one of the most lasting stains on the United States of the war.

On the Blackwater contractor point, it is worth noting that Eric Prince, head of Blackwater, is related to Besty DeVos and has a clear political bent. For example, when he was eager to spy on Americans who leaned left:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/politics/erik-prince-project-veritas.html

Prince has a clear interest in his contractors being able to literally get away with murder. Our military operations should not be privatized and the existence of organizations like Blackwater are very problematic in my mind.

The prerequisites for a Trump pardon: you murdered Arab/Afghan civilians, you were convicted of his breaking of elections laws, or you're a Republican politician who was convicted of a crime. Note that Duncan Hunter is on the list as well. Skimmed straight out of his reelection funds and tried to blame his wife.

BussoV6

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6135 on: December 23, 2020, 05:47:11 AM »
It's a sure bet that quite a few more scumbags will walk free before 20 January.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6136 on: December 23, 2020, 06:10:11 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting. 

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6137 on: December 23, 2020, 08:07:22 AM »
I read a reasonably crappy book (Total Power by Kyle Mills) a few weeks ago about this guy who hacked the US electric grid and tried to sell it around, eventually partnering with some middle eastern terrorists to actually bring down the grid. Chaos ensues, violence, looting, government on the verge of collapse, the usual fiction stuff. The premise seemed plausible and then the rest of the book went downhill.

In any case the author had a note at the end in which he commented that he was surprised how vulnerable our grid is as part of the research he did for his writing.

Now we have proof that we have been hacked and much more than what the book imagined, and I’m thinking back to what the author had imagined happening to our society should do one actually choose to pull the plug.

Can someone give me reasons why I shouldn’t think we could have things collapse around us should whoever holds the keys to the kingdom now think it would be fun to watch us struggle?

Someone more knowledgeable will likely chime in...  but I know enough to know that our electrical grid is very vulnerable and in need of hardening.  It is a significant amount of money but we would be DOA without the grid.
You want the read something really scary.  This is the actual research done by a respected journalist.  https://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Cyberattack-Unprepared-Surviving/dp/0553419986

nessness

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6138 on: December 23, 2020, 08:22:04 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.

Past presidents have mostly used the power to right perceived injustices, or to help the nation move on (such as Ford's pardon of Nixon).

Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6139 on: December 23, 2020, 08:42:11 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.

Past presidents have mostly used the power to right perceived injustices, or to help the nation move on (such as Ford's pardon of Nixon).

Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.

Regarding the bolded,

Trump administration: "Hold my beer."

(Also, pardoning himself will not protect him at all against charges filed at the state or municipal level. I don't know if he understands that pardoning himself would not be a "get out of jail free" card. I will not be surprised in the slightest if he flees the US.)

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6140 on: December 23, 2020, 09:12:47 AM »
Does this mean they know something we don’t or that this is more humoring the baby?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/23/joe-biden-trump-transition-live-updates/#link-GOAMGDKBKZHIFPJLPE4VQNVNQE

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6141 on: December 23, 2020, 09:25:26 AM »
Does this mean they know something we don’t or that this is more humoring the baby?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/23/joe-biden-trump-transition-live-updates/#link-GOAMGDKBKZHIFPJLPE4VQNVNQE

Washington Post is one of the most strictly paywalled news sources in existence, you should probably at least describe what you're talking about.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6142 on: December 23, 2020, 09:31:17 AM »
Yes, I cannot get into that article either.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6143 on: December 23, 2020, 09:43:08 AM »
Sorry - here’s the text:

Trump’s executive office sent an email to White House staff Tuesday night detailing the departure process ahead of Biden’s inauguration next month.
On Wednesday morning, a new email landed in staffers’ inboxes — this one telling them to ignore the previous message.

“Please disregard the below message,” reads the email, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Updated information will be shared in the coming days.”
The original email said staff members would begin leaving the White House on Jan. 5 and would receive their last paychecks in February. It also went over such details as returning stationery and office supplies and cleaning White House equipment, such as microwaves.
The mundane, bureaucratic email was circulated to every White House employee, according to two officials who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss the message.
The conflicting messages are the latest evidence of the dichotomy of many parts of his government seeking to facilitate a transition, while the president is stridently against one and falsely claims that he might have a second term.

Trump refuses to concede the election to Biden and continues to make baseless claims of widespread voter fraud. He has also been frustrated with his inner circle — including Vice President Pence, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows — saying that the officials around him are working to stymie his final hopes of overturning the election results, according to a White House official.

Attorney General William P. Barr said earlier this month that he has “not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” undercutting the claims that Trump and his allies have made — without evidence — of significant voting irregularities.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6144 on: December 23, 2020, 09:54:21 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.


I understand that, I remember Nixon's pardon.  What I don't understand is why it is in the constitution in the first place.  There are other ways to deal with wrongful conviction.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6145 on: December 23, 2020, 10:29:39 AM »
Some basic pardon history, which I think is useful context. It is written at about the level to be used in a high school book report (apologies, but don't expect deep legal analysis out of it):
https://www.whitehousehistory.org/the-history-of-the-pardon-power/

The last paragraph or the article seems a bit of a stretch and included for the present moment in history.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 10:32:02 AM by Glenstache »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6146 on: December 23, 2020, 11:26:51 AM »
Quote from: nessness link=topic=109023.msg2758138#msg2758138 
[/quote

Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited.

Presidents'  pardon power is plenary.


Ex parte Garland  (1866)

Congress can neither limit the effect of his pardon, nor exclude from its exercise any class of offenders. The benign prerogative of mercy reposed in him cannot be fettered by any legislative restrictions.



Trump has floated the idea of pardoning himself. No one has ever tried to do this before, so it would very likely go to the Supreme Court to decide if it's allowed.


If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling that nullifies it.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."

.



« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 11:31:23 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6147 on: December 23, 2020, 11:27:48 AM »
Can someone explain the background of Presidential pardons?  It seems very dodgy, as Trump is demonstrating.  We don't have that, since once an election is called the government in power is only a caretaker government, and the new government is formed a few days after the election results.  None of this waiting and waiting.
Our constitution grants presidents the power to pardon Federal crimes (but not state crimes). Courts have ruled over time that the power is pretty much unlimited, with a few exceptions - for example, you can't accept bribes to pardon someone.

You can pardon someone whether or not they've been convicted or even charged with a crime. For example, Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes he may have committed related to the Watergate scandal.


I understand that, I remember Nixon's pardon.  What I don't understand is why it is in the constitution in the first place.  There are other ways to deal with wrongful conviction.

Like so much of our constitution, it goes back to the Brits, and the British Monarchy. In some ways the framers crafted the constitution as a reaction to the British monarchy (and to prevent the President from becoming an 'elected king'). But in other subtle and strange ways they modeled the executive branch after the King. 

The pardon power was one such example - the King had the power to pardon and grant clemency, and they thought that was an important enough power for an executive to have that they left it in.  Even then it was far from unanimous - there was a proposed amendment (originally to be included with the Bill of Rights) which would have curtailed a president's power in cases of treason and made them capable of being over-ridden by a Congressional veto.  That failed, in part because it was argued that the power of a pardon wasn't much of a power at all if it could be vetoed, and that a President who abused his pardon power would suffer politically during the next election (ergo: the voters would be another 'check' on this power).

Like in many other areas, Trump's tendancy to bust norms has shown how these powers can be abused.

Plina

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6148 on: December 23, 2020, 11:41:16 AM »
It would be like saying I have done illegal things as a president so I will pardon myself. It would seem like a pretty bad summary of his own presidency.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #6149 on: December 23, 2020, 11:58:18 AM »
Sorry - here’s the text:

Trump’s executive office sent an email to White House staff Tuesday night detailing the departure process ahead of Biden’s inauguration next month.
On Wednesday morning, a new email landed in staffers’ inboxes — this one telling them to ignore the previous message.

“Please disregard the below message,” reads the email, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Updated information will be shared in the coming days.”
The original email said staff members would begin leaving the White House on Jan. 5 and would receive their last paychecks in February. It also went over such details as returning stationery and office supplies and cleaning White House equipment, such as microwaves.
The mundane, bureaucratic email was circulated to every White House employee, according to two officials who spoke anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss the message.
The conflicting messages are the latest evidence of the dichotomy of many parts of his government seeking to facilitate a transition, while the president is stridently against one and falsely claims that he might have a second term.

Trump refuses to concede the election to Biden and continues to make baseless claims of widespread voter fraud. He has also been frustrated with his inner circle — including Vice President Pence, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and Chief of Staff Mark Meadows — saying that the officials around him are working to stymie his final hopes of overturning the election results, according to a White House official.

Attorney General William P. Barr said earlier this month that he has “not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election,” undercutting the claims that Trump and his allies have made — without evidence — of significant voting irregularities.

The email withdrawal is probably related to this: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mike-pence-could-go-rogue-when-congress-counts-electoral-votes-election-experts-warn-11608246200

Quote
On Jan. 6, a joint session of the new Congress will convene to count the electoral votes and declare the next president. Results will be announced alphabetically by state, and individual representatives and senators may object to those results in writing.

If both a representative and a senator agree to object to a state’s election results, the Senate and the House of Representatives will adjourn to their separate chambers to debate the matter for up to two hours and then hold a vote on whether to reject a slate of electors.

This scenario seems likely to happen, after several Republican representatives have come forward saying they will challenge results, while Alabama Republican Senator-elect Tommy Tuberville has said he might join in, despite Sen. Mitch McConnell urging his caucus not to.

Other conservatives have suggested that Vice President Mike Pence has the unilateral authority to reject slates of electors, based on language in the 12th Amendment.

Basically, MAGAworld is basing their hopes on the this check-and-balance failing on Jan. 6. They're still trying to cancel my and millions of other Americans' votes.