Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681600 times)

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5850 on: November 30, 2020, 12:36:21 PM »
A very easy way to identify a liberal church is to look for one with a rainbow flag out front.  If you go inside and crack open a hymnal, you'll probably also see Micah 6:8 quoted somewhere prominently.  You can also look for one with a female pastor.  Then there are certain denominations that tend to be more liberal...definitely the unitarians and a good chunk of the episcopalians as well.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 12:45:04 PM by jrhampt »

dandarc

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4853
  • Age: 39
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5851 on: November 30, 2020, 12:43:23 PM »
This dynamic that church leadership skews older and more set in their ways is not unique to conservative churches, if my experience as a 38 year old board member of a UU congregation is any indication. Effecting any kind of organizational change, even among a bunch of (mostly) progressives is incredibly difficult.

"We should amend the bylaws so we don't require a congregational vote for every last expenditure from the endowment" is apparently a controversial issue. I'm going to have to run workshops and probably work on this for multiple years to convince people that maybe we should actually be using some of that money every year and not just when we need to do significant work on the building. And I'm just the lowly VP for Finance - the folks pushing for real change face even more resistance.

Plina

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5852 on: November 30, 2020, 02:44:39 PM »
Thanks @FIPurpose, @jrhampt and @dandarc for your answers. I find it fascinating that there are a church vocabulary to distinguish between different churches and that you choose churches based on political beliefs. I also find it interesting that politics is so mixed in to everything.

We don’t even discuss political parties and what we vote among the family even if I could probably guess. At work even less (excluding last place were one of my colleagues was politician and another former one). It is not something that is considered polite to ask even though politician bashing is ok.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5242
  • Age: 126
  • Location: In the middle somewhere....
  • Here to learn.
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5853 on: November 30, 2020, 03:05:38 PM »
Are there some rural areas already with good broadband? I know that Google Fiber has pockets in AL/GA/KS/MO. I don't see my family moving anytime soon (sorry), but I can at least pass along that info to people I know considering such moves in the wake of remote work.

Chattanooga has some fo the best broadband in the country according to some of the tech websites. I suspect you could find places all over the country near universities where you'd have good internet and plenty of conservatives to make friends with.

dandarc

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4853
  • Age: 39
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5854 on: November 30, 2020, 03:39:56 PM »
@Plina - you say you live in a secular country, but you fund your churches through taxes - am I reading right?

Apologize for dropping an unexplained abbreviation - UU = "Unitarian Universalism". That's the denomination I was referring to - the Unitarians the jrhampt refers to. Tiny, but among the most liberal Christian denominations, at least by party registration of members in the United States anyway.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 03:42:04 PM by dandarc »

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5855 on: November 30, 2020, 05:07:47 PM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.

Pretty sure this has been the plan for at least the last 4 years, when he was already bithering about all the illegal votes that showed that Clinton won the popular vote. Even set up a commission to look into it, but couldn't find enough people willing to ignore the evidence they found and proclaim him right, so it was disolved.

He complained to his FoxNews mouthpiece Maria Bartiromo that the FBI and Justice Department weren't doing his dirty work for him. Recall that just prior to the election he was pissed at Barr for not finding a reason to arrest Biden. On 60 minutes his fired election watchdog threw him a curveball, saying that he should be proud and take credit for building that office and having the most secure election ever. Of course to take that credit he'd have to admit this fraud thing is all bullshit (and an attempt at a coup).

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5254
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5856 on: November 30, 2020, 05:11:12 PM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.

Pretty sure this has been the plan for at least the last 4 years, when he was already bithering about all the illegal votes that showed that Clinton won the popular vote. Even set up a commission to look into it, but couldn't find enough people willing to ignore the evidence they found and proclaim him right, so it was disolved.

He complained to his FoxNews mouthpiece Maria Bartiromo that the FBI and Justice Department weren't doing his dirty work for him. Recall that just prior to the election he was pissed at Barr for not finding a reason to arrest Biden. On 60 minutes his fired election watchdog threw him a curveball, saying that he should be proud and take credit for building that office and having the most secure election ever. Of course to take that credit he'd have to admit this fraud thing is all bullshit (and an attempt at a coup).

He really has painted himself into a corner, hasn't he?

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5857 on: November 30, 2020, 05:39:29 PM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.

Pretty sure this has been the plan for at least the last 4 years, when he was already bithering about all the illegal votes that showed that Clinton won the popular vote. Even set up a commission to look into it, but couldn't find enough people willing to ignore the evidence they found and proclaim him right, so it was disolved.

He complained to his FoxNews mouthpiece Maria Bartiromo that the FBI and Justice Department weren't doing his dirty work for him. Recall that just prior to the election he was pissed at Barr for not finding a reason to arrest Biden. On 60 minutes his fired election watchdog threw him a curveball, saying that he should be proud and take credit for building that office and having the most secure election ever. Of course to take that credit he'd have to admit this fraud thing is all bullshit (and an attempt at a coup).

He really has painted himself into a corner, hasn't he?

His rantings have become noise to me, especially with how farcical they've become. Proving fraud in court has gone nowhere, so now Biden must have the burden of proof that he won. Never mind silly things like election law. Several stories ran today describing Trump acting like Mad King George ranting about how he won and the only people left in the White House are the sycophant true-believers. 

The problem I'm having is the Republican factions in a couple state legislatures now suing to simply void the election and have them choose with no other justification than the hope that they can get away with it. One of them, maybe Pennsylvania, trying to argue that mail-in voting is unconstitutional after holding the election.  Despite our election being "the most secure ever," we have some serious vulnerabilities that need to be addressed. So far the courts have stuck with the law, but a few of these election certifications have hinged on just a couple personalities continuing to do the right thing when they have it in their power to do otherwise.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6537
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5858 on: November 30, 2020, 05:53:15 PM »

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5016
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5859 on: November 30, 2020, 06:28:13 PM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.

Pretty sure this has been the plan for at least the last 4 years, when he was already bithering about all the illegal votes that showed that Clinton won the popular vote. Even set up a commission to look into it, but couldn't find enough people willing to ignore the evidence they found and proclaim him right, so it was disolved.

He complained to his FoxNews mouthpiece Maria Bartiromo that the FBI and Justice Department weren't doing his dirty work for him. Recall that just prior to the election he was pissed at Barr for not finding a reason to arrest Biden. On 60 minutes his fired election watchdog threw him a curveball, saying that he should be proud and take credit for building that office and having the most secure election ever. Of course to take that credit he'd have to admit this fraud thing is all bullshit (and an attempt at a coup).

He really has painted himself into a corner, hasn't he?

He makes contradictory claims all the time even if they don't make sense. This is literally pulled directly from his twitter. He has no problem taking credit for the most secure election in history while simultaneously claiming it was rigged and fraudulent.  Those claims are within the same sentence even.

Quote from: Trump on twitter
For years the Dems have been preaching how unsafe and rigged our elections have been. Now they are saying what a wonderful job the Trump Administration did in making 2020 the most secure election ever. Actually this is true, except for what the Democrats did. Rigged Election!

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5860 on: November 30, 2020, 06:28:53 PM »
Rats abandoning a sinking ship. Scott Atlas resigns.

http://hill.cm/7gAccQi?fbclid=IwAR1KdvXcpC6U2lhaIntyC2YK5l3keaSr7l6Ou3OOefKqJYr5foN1skvolhk

His appointment was due to expire this week, so was his resignation a statutory requirement?

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5861 on: November 30, 2020, 06:29:36 PM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.

Pretty sure this has been the plan for at least the last 4 years, when he was already bithering about all the illegal votes that showed that Clinton won the popular vote. Even set up a commission to look into it, but couldn't find enough people willing to ignore the evidence they found and proclaim him right, so it was disolved.

He complained to his FoxNews mouthpiece Maria Bartiromo that the FBI and Justice Department weren't doing his dirty work for him. Recall that just prior to the election he was pissed at Barr for not finding a reason to arrest Biden. On 60 minutes his fired election watchdog threw him a curveball, saying that he should be proud and take credit for building that office and having the most secure election ever. Of course to take that credit he'd have to admit this fraud thing is all bullshit (and an attempt at a coup).

He really has painted himself into a corner, hasn't he?

He makes contradictory claims all the time even if they don't make sense. This is literally pulled directly from his twitter. He has no problem taking credit for the most secure election in history while simultaneously claiming it was rigged and fraudulent.  Those claims are within the same sentence even.

Quote from: Trump on twitter
For years the Dems have been preaching how unsafe and rigged our elections have been. Now they are saying what a wonderful job the Trump Administration did in making 2020 the most secure election ever. Actually this is true, except for what the Democrats did. Rigged Election!

Okay, stupid me for not just assuming he'd take a third option and claim both at the same time.

Moonwaves

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1792
  • Location: Germany
    • My blog
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5862 on: December 01, 2020, 01:50:13 AM »
@Plina - you say you live in a secular country, but you fund your churches through taxes - am I reading right?
This happens in Germany as well. But only those who have declared themselves to be a member of whichever church pay that tax - so if you put down Roman Catholic when you register at the town hall, or tick that box on the form when you start a job, for example, then you pay church tax which goes to the Catholic church. If you're a non-believer you don't have to pay it.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5863 on: December 01, 2020, 04:14:31 AM »
Trump tried to call Arizona Governor Ducey's cell phone at the same time he's signing Arizona's election certification on live TV. Trump loses his shit on Twitter. The local newspaper throws a few zingers Ducey's way for kissing Trump's ass for the last couple years and the relationship ending with Ducey thrown under the bus.  A more pro-Ducey site soaks in the humor of him ignoring the call, but makes an interesting point. What if he took the call? Put it on speaker, and the whole world would get to hear Trump commit a felony by trying to get him to change the election.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2020/11/30/trump-turns-arizona-gov-doug-ducey-who-didnt-see-coming/6472969002/

https://www.politicalflare.com/2020/11/watch-arizona-gov-ducey-silences-call-from-trump-just-as-he-is-certifying-election-results/

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2750
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5864 on: December 01, 2020, 04:16:22 AM »
Trump allies to Michigan judge: Force Whitmer to overturn results, award state to president (Detroit Free Press)

It's the shittiest game of Whack-a-Mole ever. Here's hoping the courts continue to uphold democracy because lord knows the President's administration and national party aren't.
I'm increasingly thinking the goal is not to win these cases (though they would certainly take it if they somehow did), but rather to create a lot of smoke and cause a section of the electorate to question the legitimacy. The throughgoing theme of the Trump administration has been to throw so much bullshit out there that truth is lost in the shuffle. Same here. If he loses and the electoral college does it's thing and elects Biden, then Trump can just chalk it up to the Deep State and that his followers should distrust the government even more and trust only him and his allies moving forward.
Someone mentioned Germany 1920-40 earlier. Here is that part:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth


Quote
Progressives can only sit around for half their life before they realize that the conservatives have no intention of ever moving or changing their opinions.
Well, that's the meaning of the word "conservative". If it takes you half a lifetime to find that out, you are not as smart as you think you are.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5865 on: December 01, 2020, 07:36:25 AM »
It's not that we choose churches based on politics (churches are SUPPOSED to be apolitical), but if you're a woman or a gay person, you may not want to be part of a church where you're not allowed into the church hierarchy.  Churches that allow female or gay clergy tend to be socially liberal and thus you're probably going to be attending church with a bunch of Democrats, even though politics aren't necessarily explicitly talked about.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5866 on: December 01, 2020, 08:03:26 AM »
Churches that allow female or gay clergy tend to be socially liberal and thus you're probably going to be attending church with a bunch of Democrats, even though politics aren't necessarily explicitly talked about.

Politics are explicitly talked about in conservative churches. I've been to several churches where people will preach about how all good Christians are required to go out and vote against abortion, or praise Trump from the pulpit, or go on and on about how Defending Israel Is Good, or whinge about how Gay Marriage Is Destroying The Country when that happens to be the political topic if the day, etc.

It's one of the most stark differences I've ever seen. Conservative churches do absolutely tell their members that they're required to vote Republican, liberal churches just focus on helping the poor and sick and needy and put-upon and the people who happen to flock to those churches tend to be Democrats.

jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1651
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5867 on: December 01, 2020, 08:10:07 AM »
Churches that allow female or gay clergy tend to be socially liberal and thus you're probably going to be attending church with a bunch of Democrats, even though politics aren't necessarily explicitly talked about.

Politics are explicitly talked about in conservative churches. I've been to several churches where people will preach about how all good Christians are required to go out and vote against abortion, or praise Trump from the pulpit, or go on and on about how Defending Israel Is Good, or whinge about how Gay Marriage Is Destroying The Country when that happens to be the political topic if the day, etc.

It's one of the most stark differences I've ever seen. Conservative churches do absolutely tell their members that they're required to vote Republican, liberal churches just focus on helping the poor and sick and needy and put-upon and the people who happen to flock to those churches tend to be Democrats.

Oh, absolutely.  Yes, I was making the point that this isn't what is *supposed* to happen though.  I went to a Baptist school affiliated with a church led by a very outspoken Trump supporter that has had both Hannity and Pence speak there in the past couple of years.  Presumably about politics, because why else would you invite a couple of Catholics to speak at a Southern Baptist church?  I have definitely heard politics preached from the pulpit in conservative churches. 

skp

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: oh
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5868 on: December 01, 2020, 08:32:08 AM »
Churches that allow female or gay clergy tend to be socially liberal and thus you're probably going to be attending church with a bunch of Democrats, even though politics aren't necessarily explicitly talked about.

Politics are explicitly talked about in conservative churches. I've been to several churches where people will preach about how all good Christians are required to go out and vote against abortion, or praise Trump from the pulpit, or go on and on about how Defending Israel Is Good, or whinge about how Gay Marriage Is Destroying The Country when that happens to be the political topic if the day, etc.

It's one of the most stark differences I've ever seen. Conservative churches do absolutely tell their members that they're required to vote Republican, liberal churches just focus on helping the poor and sick and needy and put-upon and the people who happen to flock to those churches tend to be Democrats.
Disagree.  I belonged to a United Church of Christ church in a conservative community.  While no one explicity tells you who to vote for I remember a sermon (probably when Clinton was in office) on Welfare reform and how we would be punishing the children if it was enacted.  I also remember a responsive reading praying for those people who have hard hearts and don't want to enact minimum wage laws.

geekette

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5869 on: December 01, 2020, 11:05:04 AM »
From today’s spam. Ha ha ha!  Ha ha!  Who, on newsmax, dared to say no?

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6145
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5870 on: December 01, 2020, 12:52:18 PM »
From today’s spam. Ha ha ha!  Ha ha!  Who, on newsmax, dared to say no?

It reminds me of some of the "Stop the Steal" rallies where people bring up the fact that there's NO way that Biden got more votes because, ya know, just look at how many people are here compared to a Biden rally.

Plina

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5871 on: December 01, 2020, 01:42:38 PM »
@Plina - you say you live in a secular country, but you fund your churches through taxes - am I reading right?

Apologize for dropping an unexplained abbreviation - UU = "Unitarian Universalism". That's the denomination I was referring to - the Unitarians the jrhampt refers to. Tiny, but among the most liberal Christian denominations, at least by party registration of members in the United States anyway.

Actually, I learned it is not a tax but a churchfee, like a membership fee. It is apparently legislated through a law from 2000 when the church was separated from the state. If you fill the requirement for a denomination?/church organisation the tax authorities can help the organisation to collect the fee. There are apparently 17 of those that have asked for help. As a member I pay 1 % of my taxable income as a church fee to the Swedish church, but you seem to have catholic, methodist, muslim organisations among others. You become a member of the Swedish church by baptism as a kid or later in life. Previously, you became a member by birth but that is no longer the case. It is not a requirement to be a member of any of the organisations, with one exception. The head of the state, the king or the queen, has to be a member of the Swedish church.

You actually also pay a burial fee through the tax authorities to the Swedish church that is responsible for the upkeep of the cementaries. That is mandatory for everyone.

So why do I still say that Sweden is seen as a pretty secular country? Because, most of the people are members by habit or because they have to take action to quit their membership that my generation got automatically. Personally, I am still a member because I like to contribute to preservation of all the old buildings. Religion is also seen as something personal. I frankly only know one person that have ever mentioned visiting a church for sermons and she belonged to a nonconformist church. I can't remember a politician from the bigger parties talking about their faith. We have a Christian Democratic Party but they got about 6 % of the votes. So even if many are members, they are not active members.

The visits to services at the Swedish church are declining, In 1990, there were about. 24 million visits and 2019 about 13 million visits. About 3,4 million of those in 2019 were for Sunday service and 4,9 million for baptism, weddings, funerals (you don't need to be a member to be counted into this number). That is with 5,8 million members, which is more than half of the population. Most of the people I know visit the church for funerals, baptism and weddings, while Sunday services are for old people, at least in the Swedish churcht. I have been twice in a church this year, once for a funeral and once for a baptism.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 02:48:58 PM by Plina »

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5872 on: December 01, 2020, 01:46:47 PM »
Quote
Progressives can only sit around for half their life before they realize that the conservatives have no intention of ever moving or changing their opinions.
Well, that's the meaning of the word "conservative". If it takes you half a lifetime to find that out, you are not as smart as you think you are.

Well, I've known many church members who hang around in a church they don't agree with because they either think that they will "slowly move the needle" or they tell other members to just "stick it out. Things will change!" You don't want to be labelled the reason why the group fell apart.

As a short example, I remember approaching the eldership at one church about including women in the service. Not even becoming clergy, just to start including them in the service such as allowing them to pray during a service, or other smaller duties. One elder was trying to get me to give up on the idea of it happening, and to just be happy with the things have changed for the better over the past year (basically super small crumbs of changes). The other elder basically started yelling and throwing a hissy fit about how I was ruining the church and that I should basically shut up and stop complaining. I left that day, and never went back.

To bring this back to the thread's topic, we have the same thing in the current Dem party. Biden is really eager to forgive and forget with the GOP. He continues to claim that they will come to the negotiating table in good faith. Now Biden has been around for the past 30 years, so he should know better. But this is all a very roundabout way of saying that yes I agree with you, the Dem. party and especially the current leadership is stupidly naive.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Age: 92
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5873 on: December 01, 2020, 02:15:12 PM »
Quote
Progressives can only sit around for half their life before they realize that the conservatives have no intention of ever moving or changing their opinions.
Well, that's the meaning of the word "conservative". If it takes you half a lifetime to find that out, you are not as smart as you think you are.

Well, I've known many church members who hang around in a church they don't agree with because they either think that they will "slowly move the needle" or they tell other members to just "stick it out. Things will change!" You don't want to be labelled the reason why the group fell apart.

As a short example, I remember approaching the eldership at one church about including women in the service. Not even becoming clergy, just to start including them in the service such as allowing them to pray during a service, or other smaller duties. One elder was trying to get me to give up on the idea of it happening, and to just be happy with the things have changed for the better over the past year (basically super small crumbs of changes). The other elder basically started yelling and throwing a hissy fit about how I was ruining the church and that I should basically shut up and stop complaining. I left that day, and never went back.

To bring this back to the thread's topic, we have the same thing in the current Dem party. Biden is really eager to forgive and forget with the GOP. He continues to claim that they will come to the negotiating table in good faith. Now Biden has been around for the past 30 years, so he should know better. But this is all a very roundabout way of saying that yes I agree with you, the Dem. party and especially the current leadership is stupidly naive.
Biden has very little to lose but much to gain by providing an opening to work with the GOP at this point. The real litmus test will be if he plays hardball once McConnell starts obstruction on the first meaningful legislation up for vote (or committee for that matter). Mitch will definitely push at Biden hard to see how much ground will be given up.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6145
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5874 on: December 01, 2020, 05:09:36 PM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Age: 92
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5875 on: December 01, 2020, 05:40:39 PM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?

jim555

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2862
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5876 on: December 01, 2020, 09:04:52 PM »
One downside to pardons are the people you pardon lose 5th amendment immunity, so compelling them to testify means can't refuse questions.  Presidential pardons will be challenged, time to set some new court adjudicated limits for the first time.

Taran Wanderer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5877 on: December 02, 2020, 12:30:32 AM »
That should make for some interesting congressional hearings.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2750
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5878 on: December 02, 2020, 04:00:55 AM »
From today’s spam. Ha ha ha!  Ha ha!  Who, on newsmax, dared to say no?

It reminds me of some of the "Stop the Steal" rallies where people bring up the fact that there's NO way that Biden got more votes because, ya know, just look at how many people are here compared to a Biden rally.
Strangely that those people never looked at how many people showed up in other countries at Trump rallies O.o
Okay, joke aside, the 98% would easily be for "give up you clown" if you asked the world population.


John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5879 on: December 02, 2020, 08:49:36 AM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?


Strict constructionism results in   the cut-and-dried  answer that he can for the reason that a president's Pardon Power is plenary "except in Cases of Impeachment."



ARTICLE II.

SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1

The President shall...have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 08:57:17 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5880 on: December 02, 2020, 09:02:17 AM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?


Strict constructionism results in   the cut-and-dried  answer that he can for the reason that a president's Pardon Power is plenary "except in Cases of Impeachment."

However bribery is also illegal under State laws in every State in the US, and Trump can't protect against State charges.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6145
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5881 on: December 02, 2020, 09:03:48 AM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?


Strict constructionism results in   the cut-and-dried  answer that he can for the reason that a president's Pardon Power is plenary "except in Cases of Impeachment."



ARTICLE II.

SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1

The President shall...have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

I expect Trump has plausible deniability if it's at all connected to him. "Mark Meadows?* Never heard of the guy."


* Meadows is an example and has not been mentioned in the investigation.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19789
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5882 on: December 02, 2020, 09:07:18 AM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?


Strict constructionism results in   the cut-and-dried  answer that he can for the reason that a president's Pardon Power is plenary "except in Cases of Impeachment."

However bribery is also illegal under State laws in every State in the US, and Trump can't protect against State charges.

No president has ever been brought to court after getting out of office.  I don't think Trump will break this streak.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5883 on: December 02, 2020, 09:11:54 AM »
There's a pardon-bribery investigation going on in the DC District. Some attorney-client privileges have been breached, which indicates how serious it is.

That'll be a constitutional case. Can a President pardon someone for a direct donation/bribe?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html
... and can/will Trump just issue a pardon for the pardon/bribery case?


Strict constructionism results in   the cut-and-dried  answer that he can for the reason that a president's Pardon Power is plenary "except in Cases of Impeachment."

However bribery is also illegal under State laws in every State in the US, and Trump can't protect against State charges.

No president has ever been brought to court after getting out of office.  I don't think Trump will break this streak.

Maybe not, but offering a bribe is usually just as illegal as taking one. The people that he'd be pardoning (other than himself) can still be on the hook.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1825
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5884 on: December 02, 2020, 10:33:53 AM »
And a pardon usually includes an admission of guilt. So yeah there might be some jail time included if these people who are offering bribes are under particular state's jurisdictions.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3256
  • Age: 92
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5885 on: December 02, 2020, 10:41:18 AM »

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4989
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5886 on: December 02, 2020, 10:48:38 AM »
I was just sent a weird video by an Evangelical friend of mine with a pastor predicting a "Christmas miracle" which I guess will be Trump's securing continued time in office.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5887 on: December 02, 2020, 11:43:50 AM »
And a pardon usually includes an admission of guilt.

When a president  pardons a scoundrel many citizens think "The bum/rat  got off with a pardon."

But does  a pardonee merit escape of all opprobrium for their misdeed(s)?

They do not because  a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."


Burdick
is an apposite case.


BURDICK v. UNITED STATES (1915)

This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial.  the latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5254
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5888 on: December 02, 2020, 12:55:23 PM »
And the shittiest Whack-a-Mole game continues:

Michigan lawmakers being lobbied to disregard vote, award Trump electors (Bridge Michigan)

Quote
In a Tuesday email to Republican legislators, a person identifying themselves as Kerrick Kuder of the Trump campaign’s election day operations team alleged the MIchigan election was “compromised” and urged “dramatic and Constitutional measures to right this injustice.”

The email claims the president wants Republican majorities in the Michigan House and Senate to approve a joint resolution to “allow Michigan to send electors for Donald J Trump to the Electoral College and save our country.”

“All eyes of the country are looking at Michigan right now,” states the email that Bridge Michigan has obtained.

Sent Tuesday from a donaldtrump.com address, the email came the same day several GOP legislators received a phone message from someone who identified themselves as Angela McCallum, of the Trump campaign, that also urged legislators to appoint their own electors.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6145
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5889 on: December 02, 2020, 01:22:46 PM »
And the shittiest Whack-a-Mole game continues:

Michigan lawmakers being lobbied to disregard vote, award Trump electors (Bridge Michigan)

Quote
In a Tuesday email to Republican legislators, a person identifying themselves as Kerrick Kuder of the Trump campaign’s election day operations team alleged the MIchigan election was “compromised” and urged “dramatic and Constitutional measures to right this injustice.”

The email claims the president wants Republican majorities in the Michigan House and Senate to approve a joint resolution to “allow Michigan to send electors for Donald J Trump to the Electoral College and save our country.”

“All eyes of the country are looking at Michigan right now,” states the email that Bridge Michigan has obtained.

Sent Tuesday from a donaldtrump.com address, the email came the same day several GOP legislators received a phone message from someone who identified themselves as Angela McCallum, of the Trump campaign, that also urged legislators to appoint their own electors.

Insanity. There's a seemingly thin wall being held against a mob of deluded individuals fighting for a guy who would throw them under a bus without a care.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5890 on: December 02, 2020, 03:25:56 PM »
Yeah, those people are a bunch of lollipops.    They're sending millions of dollars to their hero, the self-made billionaire.

My hope is that he starts his own news network.   With Trump in charge, it's bound to use up most of the capital he has left.   Then he can quietly fade into the annals of history...

sixwings

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 344
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5891 on: December 02, 2020, 05:08:41 PM »
Yeah, those people are a bunch of lollipops.    They're sending millions of dollars to their hero, the self-made billionaire.

My hope is that he starts his own news network.   With Trump in charge, it's bound to use up most of the capital he has left.   Then he can quietly fade into the annals of history...

I don't, there's a lot of money to be made in the right wing media space sowing disinformation, hate, racism and distrust. Hannity isn't a poor guy and it's not very hard. Just make stuff up about caravans of brown people approaching the US and how soshialism is taking over. It's really dangerous and awful and with Trump, an ex-president, lending some impression of it being legit to anyone who doesnt know any better, that would be really really really bad for the US IMO.

Fi(re) on the Farm

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: New Englandish
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5892 on: December 02, 2020, 05:25:35 PM »
Yeah, those people are a bunch of lollipops.    They're sending millions of dollars to their hero, the self-made billionaire.

My hope is that he starts his own news network.   With Trump in charge, it's bound to use up most of the capital he has left.   Then he can quietly fade into the annals of history...

I don't, there's a lot of money to be made in the right wing media space sowing disinformation, hate, racism and distrust. Hannity isn't a poor guy and it's not very hard. Just make stuff up about caravans of brown people approaching the US and how soshialism is taking over. It's really dangerous and awful and with Trump, an ex-president, lending some impression of it being legit to anyone who doesnt know any better, that would be really really really bad for the US IMO.

Yeah but this is a man who lost money owning casinos so having a failing news network would just fit his bad business pattern. 

meghan88

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
  • Location: Montreal
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5893 on: December 05, 2020, 05:57:46 PM »
No posts in this thread since Dec 2 ... I'm surprised, is everyone numb at this point? 

Here's a clip regarding Mellissa Carone's awe-inspiring testimony on Dec 3:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/rudy-giuliani-witness-trump-campaign-voter-fraud-mellissa

Gonna watch SNL tonight for sure.

frugalnacho

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5016
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5894 on: December 05, 2020, 06:49:51 PM »
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334344279305695232?s=20

This clip just keeps getting funnier every time I watch it.

the_fixer

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
  • Location: Colorado
  • mind on my money money on my mind
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5895 on: December 05, 2020, 08:45:06 PM »
No posts in this thread since Dec 2 ... I'm surprised, is everyone numb at this point? 

Nah we all moved over to the Trump outrage of the hour thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OtherJen

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5254
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5896 on: December 05, 2020, 09:33:33 PM »
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1334344279305695232?s=20

This clip just keeps getting funnier every time I watch it.

Yep, this is what our state legislators have done since returning from break. They certainly haven’t been addressing the 25% of counties where the ICUs are at max capacity or the economy in free fall. Giving bigoted, unhinged crackpots an open mic and letting Giuliani fart on camera is a much better use of our state tax dollars.

Roadrunner53

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3348
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5897 on: December 06, 2020, 04:40:46 AM »
Trump has been threatening Brian Kemp to overturn the election in Georgia. How is that not tampering with the election? Isn't Trump trying to rig the election? If so, why doesn't he get arrested for this? If you or I threatened a Governor and tried to sway an election a certain way, wouldn't they put us in jail?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/georgia-gov-brian-kemp-trump_n_5fcbebf8c5b6636e0925c594

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3885
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5898 on: December 06, 2020, 05:24:00 AM »
Trump has been threatening Brian Kemp to overturn the election in Georgia. How is that not tampering with the election? Isn't Trump trying to rig the election? If so, why doesn't he get arrested for this? If you or I threatened a Governor and tried to sway an election a certain way, wouldn't they put us in jail?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/georgia-gov-brian-kemp-trump_n_5fcbebf8c5b6636e0925c594

Yes it's a crime. He tried to do the same thing to Governor Ducey of Arizona last week, but Ducey refused to answer the phone call. Trump tried to interrupt him from literally signing the certification letter on live television.  No, nothing will be done about it. The same Senators that we would entrust to serve as a jury are actively helping him in this.

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3632
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5899 on: December 06, 2020, 06:40:42 AM »
Trump has been threatening Brian Kemp to overturn the election in Georgia. How is that not tampering with the election? Isn't Trump trying to rig the election? If so, why doesn't he get arrested for this? If you or I threatened a Governor and tried to sway an election a certain way, wouldn't they put us in jail?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/georgia-gov-brian-kemp-trump_n_5fcbebf8c5b6636e0925c594

Because Collins was sure he had learned his lesson, even though everyone with a brain knew that acquitting him would teach him jackshit.