Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681615 times)

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5700 on: November 21, 2020, 08:11:09 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5701 on: November 21, 2020, 08:49:36 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5702 on: November 21, 2020, 09:21:33 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

the_fixer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5703 on: November 21, 2020, 09:24:32 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)
I am willing to pitch in for a plane ticket :)


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LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5704 on: November 22, 2020, 01:00:03 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)
I am willing to pitch in for a plane ticket :)


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And I for a toaster.
Not that someone can understand this without background...

Back when Trump became president, someone wrote a tweet
"Dear NASA, sorry for bothering you, but those toasts in orbit are from my toaster. Apologies."
To which I responded:
"Dear X, space waste is a serious problem. Still: Could we get that toaster for Mr. Trump?"

Still today I sometimes get retweets of that, however that works in the twitter algo.

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5705 on: November 22, 2020, 05:39:41 AM »
I'm not sure how helpful it has been for others, but seeing the difference between the 'court of public opinion' vs. the actual courts has helped me feel as though there is still hope for a return to 'normalcy'.  Giuliani gets repeatedly laughed out of the court room, but somehow manages to rally Trump supporters with these media circuses / rallies

I feel as though there is an important lesson here that is not sinking in with the electorate though.  I'm already beginning to worry about 2024...

Do you think that maybe people who don't trust the news also don't trust the court system?  At least 100%?  There is bias.  Otherwise there wouldn't be so much interest in packing the supreme court.

As I see it, right now Trump and his core supporters donít trust the vote tallies (without evidence), they do not trust the media -particularly the traditional centrist ones - they no longer accept the ruling of the courts, they do not believe international observers, or government watchdog agencies or independent experts. Basically, they refute any narrative which contradicts what they believe is true, even absent any real evidence. Itís confirmation bias on steroids.

If they cannot trust any of the institutions specifically there to ensure the rules are observed for fair and free elections, what can be done?
I am still hoping for Parler in real life.  They will all go start their own country where they can live their consipracies and not trust any institution they rely on for their daily survival.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5706 on: November 22, 2020, 07:52:24 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5707 on: November 22, 2020, 08:37:30 AM »
Maybe it's time to set some precedent? Trump's actions have been absolutely unconscionable and there should be severe repercussions to him and his enablers. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5708 on: November 22, 2020, 08:43:00 AM »
Agreed.  But I'll be very surprised if that actually comes to pass.

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5709 on: November 22, 2020, 10:29:57 AM »
I'm not at all surprised that Trump can't find decent lawyers to work with him.  Back in the 80s or 90s (I forget which decade), my uncle's law firm represented him during one of his divorces, and he was such a nightmare to work with they decided to never represent him again.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5710 on: November 22, 2020, 10:31:23 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5711 on: November 22, 2020, 10:45:38 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

My guess is that Trump will be willing to settle for a large undisclosed settlement with NY Department of Finance rather than go to jail. He'd gladly spend down 90% of his fortune over going to jail.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5712 on: November 22, 2020, 11:05:43 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

My guess is that Trump will be willing to settle for a large undisclosed settlement with NY Department of Finance rather than go to jail. He'd gladly spend down 90% of his fortune over going to jail.

My guess is heís broke. So not much of a fortune to bargain with.

jim555

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5713 on: November 22, 2020, 11:11:23 AM »
He will probably try to pardon himself and everyone around him, that's the next outrage.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5714 on: November 22, 2020, 12:17:40 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

My guess is that Trump will be willing to settle for a large undisclosed settlement with NY Department of Finance rather than go to jail. He'd gladly spend down 90% of his fortune over going to jail.

My guess is heís broke. So not much of a fortune to bargain with.
No problem. he can just milk his followers for his Great Thruth Fund.

geekette

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5715 on: November 22, 2020, 12:28:59 PM »
He will probably try to pardon himself and everyone around him, that's the next outrage.
He can only pardon federal crimes.  Go NY!

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5716 on: November 22, 2020, 04:29:38 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)
I am willing to pitch in for a plane ticket.

If we can make it North Korea, I'd kick in some too....

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5717 on: November 22, 2020, 05:28:28 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

My guess is that Trump will be willing to settle for a large undisclosed settlement with NY Department of Finance rather than go to jail. He'd gladly spend down 90% of his fortune over going to jail.

My guess is heís broke. So not much of a fortune to bargain with.

Last month there was an article discussing why he didn't put any of his own money into the campaign this time around. Apparently he's about $140 million liquid, but owes almost three times that in loans. He was trying to sell one of his hotels recently and the deal just fell through which may hinder his impending cash flow problem.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 06:42:24 PM by Travis »

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5718 on: November 22, 2020, 06:40:12 PM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.
If I were in the Biden administration I would spend my time quietly gathering evidence against the Trumps just in case, but let New York State take the lead in prosecuting Trump and his family.  I'm hoping New York State has enough evidence to bung the lot of them in prison sooner rather than later, although massive fines and bans on doing business in the State would be nice too.

I suspect that there are plenty of Trump lackeys and hangers-on in Congress and the administration who should be seeing the inside of a courtroom and sooner rather than later would be good.

My guess is that Trump will be willing to settle for a large undisclosed settlement with NY Department of Finance rather than go to jail. He'd gladly spend down 90% of his fortune over going to jail.

My guess is heís broke. So not much of a fortune to bargain with.

Last month there was an article discussing why he did put any of his own money into the campaign this time around. Apparently he's about $140 million liquid, but owes almost three times that in loans. He was trying to sell one of his hotels and the deal just fell through.
Well, he is the "King of Debt, as he has proudly proclaimed.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5719 on: November 22, 2020, 07:43:41 PM »
I think Trump will try to use his persuasion skills to convince his base to send him money for the 2024 election.

He will then embezzle this money to try and stay ahead of prosecution.

geekette

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5720 on: November 22, 2020, 07:58:55 PM »
I think Trump will try to use his persuasion skills to convince his base to send him money for the 2024 election.

He will then embezzle this money to try and stay ahead of prosecution.
My spam filter still catches 6-8 pleas for money a day as it is! 

I did read that he's considering speaking gigs, plus charging admission for rallies.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5721 on: November 23, 2020, 04:03:26 AM »
Credit where credit is due, he is good at making people part with their money. Like every con man, it even makes people happy.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5722 on: November 23, 2020, 06:33:31 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.

Can you be more specific about a list of previous Presidents and crimes?

The most corrupt Presidents in US history were probably U.S. Grant--survived less then seven years after he left office--and Warren Harding. Despite the flagrant corruption of the people around them, both were very popular, with Republicans controlling the WH for at least two more terms after them.

(ETA I think Trump makes either of these guys look like choir boys)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 06:35:38 AM by talltexan »

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5723 on: November 23, 2020, 07:34:52 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like Iíve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I canít find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.

Can you be more specific about a list of previous Presidents and crimes?

The most corrupt Presidents in US history were probably U.S. Grant--survived less then seven years after he left office--and Warren Harding. Despite the flagrant corruption of the people around them, both were very popular, with Republicans controlling the WH for at least two more terms after them.

(ETA I think Trump makes either of these guys look like choir boys)

Plenty of crimes committed by past presidents. 

Grant and Harding, sure.  Nixon payed hush money, obstructed justice, committed a wide ranging number of war crimes, used presidential resources to investigate his personal enemies, etc.  Bill Clinton was credibly accused of multiple assaults/statutory rape.  George W Bush is a war criminal, authorizing rape and torture by US soldiers in Iraq (not to mention the coordinated lies told to the world to justify the war he wanted).

I can't think of any US president being held accountable for his actions though.  Certainly no president has ever testified in open court.  The president appears (for all intents and purposes) to be above the law . . . explicitly while in office (according to the DOJ), and also implicitly after leaving office.  It appears that the US has rebuilt the system of kings that it originally rebelled against.

ender

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5724 on: November 23, 2020, 08:20:26 AM »
Plenty of crimes committed by past presidents. 

Grant and Harding, sure.  Nixon payed hush money, obstructed justice, committed a wide ranging number of war crimes, used presidential resources to investigate his personal enemies, etc.  Bill Clinton was credibly accused of multiple assaults/statutory rape.  George W Bush is a war criminal, authorizing rape and torture by US soldiers in Iraq (not to mention the coordinated lies told to the world to justify the war he wanted).

I can't think of any US president being held accountable for his actions though.  Certainly no president has ever testified in open court.  The president appears (for all intents and purposes) to be above the law . . . explicitly while in office (according to the DOJ), and also implicitly after leaving office.  It appears that the US has rebuilt the system of kings that it originally rebelled against.

It's funny to me you manage to simultaneously attempt to blast the USA as the "system... it rebelled against" while also not bothering to care about innocent until proven guilty which is also a major factor the American colonies rebelled against.

I know in the social media age, it's basically "guilty until proven innocent" which perhaps has confused you.


GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5725 on: November 23, 2020, 08:28:01 AM »
Plenty of crimes committed by past presidents. 

Grant and Harding, sure.  Nixon payed hush money, obstructed justice, committed a wide ranging number of war crimes, used presidential resources to investigate his personal enemies, etc.  Bill Clinton was credibly accused of multiple assaults/statutory rape.  George W Bush is a war criminal, authorizing rape and torture by US soldiers in Iraq (not to mention the coordinated lies told to the world to justify the war he wanted).

I can't think of any US president being held accountable for his actions though.  Certainly no president has ever testified in open court.  The president appears (for all intents and purposes) to be above the law . . . explicitly while in office (according to the DOJ), and also implicitly after leaving office.  It appears that the US has rebuilt the system of kings that it originally rebelled against.

It's funny to me you manage to simultaneously attempt to blast the USA as the "system... it rebelled against" while also not bothering to care about innocent until proven guilty which is also a major factor the American colonies rebelled against.

I know in the social media age, it's basically "guilty until proven innocent" which perhaps has confused you.

Not 'blasting' anything.  But the idea of kings being above the law was one of the concerns of the founding fathers, wasn't it?  Do you think they would be happy with the current state of presidents being untouchable and held to different standards than all other people?

I do care about innocent until proven guilty!

Everything I listed is a matter of public record at this point.  That doesn't mean that I want these presidents lynched though.  They should be given a court date to plead their case in the criminal system.  By all accounts, it's quite likely that a large portion of the Trump administration is guilty of crimes as well - under direct orders from the president.  The question for Americans is . . . do you want to start holding the president legally accountable for his actions, or continue the tradition of lawlessness?

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5726 on: November 23, 2020, 08:32:05 AM »
Plenty of crimes committed by past presidents. 

Grant and Harding, sure.  Nixon payed hush money, obstructed justice, committed a wide ranging number of war crimes, used presidential resources to investigate his personal enemies, etc.  Bill Clinton was credibly accused of multiple assaults/statutory rape.  George W Bush is a war criminal, authorizing rape and torture by US soldiers in Iraq (not to mention the coordinated lies told to the world to justify the war he wanted).

I can't think of any US president being held accountable for his actions though.  Certainly no president has ever testified in open court.  The president appears (for all intents and purposes) to be above the law . . . explicitly while in office (according to the DOJ), and also implicitly after leaving office.  It appears that the US has rebuilt the system of kings that it originally rebelled against.

It's funny to me you manage to simultaneously attempt to blast the USA as the "system... it rebelled against" while also not bothering to care about innocent until proven guilty which is also a major factor the American colonies rebelled against.

I know in the social media age, it's basically "guilty until proven innocent" which perhaps has confused you.

What presidents have had the opportunity to enjoy the presumption of innocence while following due process through the criminal court system?

Psychstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5727 on: November 23, 2020, 09:44:17 AM »
Trump is terrified of losing Presidential immunity from prosecution, because New York is going to jail him as soon as he is out of office. That's what all this is about.
I feel like I’ve gotten so jaded these part four years over the lack of consequences for bad behavior that I can’t find myself believing that there will be consequences after he leaves office. Can anyone with any legal training comment on the likelihood of NY state being successful pursuing suits against Trump?

I share your concern. Nothing ever sticks to him.

But...he's exhausted pretty much his entire legal team except Giuliani, and we can all see how well that's going. His usual fancy Big Law firms have been dropping him like a hot potato lately.

(Although I think he will most likely flee the country.)

Has a president ever been held accountable for his crimes after leaving office?  I understand that it's theoretically possible, but can't think of an example from reality.

Can you be more specific about a list of previous Presidents and crimes?

The most corrupt Presidents in US history were probably U.S. Grant--survived less then seven years after he left office--and Warren Harding. Despite the flagrant corruption of the people around them, both were very popular, with Republicans controlling the WH for at least two more terms after them.

(ETA I think Trump makes either of these guys look like choir boys)

Plenty of crimes committed by past presidents. 

Grant and Harding, sure.  Nixon payed hush money, obstructed justice, committed a wide ranging number of war crimes, used presidential resources to investigate his personal enemies, etc.  Bill Clinton was credibly accused of multiple assaults/statutory rape.  George W Bush is a war criminal, authorizing rape and torture by US soldiers in Iraq (not to mention the coordinated lies told to the world to justify the war he wanted).

I can't think of any US president being held accountable for his actions though.  Certainly no president has ever testified in open court.  The president appears (for all intents and purposes) to be above the law . . . explicitly while in office (according to the DOJ), and also implicitly after leaving office.  It appears that the US has rebuilt the system of kings that it originally rebelled against.

I wouldn't say it is a system of kings, but more a system of wealth and power. Becoming president is not the only way you can attain immunity from justice. Maybe the greatest example of the system working as intended as is O.J. Simpson. Here is a man who came from humble beginnings to who went on to obtain such significant status and power that he was able to get away with murder*.

*My personal opinion, found not guilty in criminal court, yadda yadda yadda.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 11:22:33 AM by Psychstache »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5728 on: November 23, 2020, 09:57:34 AM »
I wouldn't say it is a system of kings, but more a system of wealth and power. Becoming president is not the only way you can attain immunity from justice. Maybe the greatest example of the system working as intended as is O.J. Simpson. Here is a man who came from humble beginnings to who went on to obtain such significant status and power that he was able to get away with murder*.

*My personal opinion, proven innocent in criminal court, yadda yadda yadda.

He was not "proven innocent", the government just failed to prove him guilty. Which are very different things, and relevant to the current conversation. No one is ever declared "innocent" by a court of law, they are declared "not guilty". It's not just semantics.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5729 on: November 23, 2020, 10:14:58 AM »
I'm not sure how helpful it has been for others, but seeing the difference between the 'court of public opinion' vs. the actual courts has helped me feel as though there is still hope for a return to 'normalcy'.  Giuliani gets repeatedly laughed out of the court room, but somehow manages to rally Trump supporters with these media circuses / rallies

I feel as though there is an important lesson here that is not sinking in with the electorate though.  I'm already beginning to worry about 2024...

Do you think that maybe people who don't trust the news also don't trust the court system?  At least 100%?  There is bias.  Otherwise there wouldn't be so much interest in packing the supreme court.

As I see it, right now Trump and his core supporters donít trust the vote tallies (without evidence), they do not trust the media -particularly the traditional centrist ones - they no longer accept the ruling of the courts, they do not believe international observers, or government watchdog agencies or independent experts. Basically, they refute any narrative which contradicts what they believe is true, even absent any real evidence. Itís confirmation bias on steroids.

If they cannot trust any of the institutions specifically there to ensure the rules are observed for fair and free elections, what can be done?
I am still hoping for Parler in real life.  They will all go start their own country where they can live their consipracies and not trust any institution they rely on for their daily survival.

I'd forgotten all about Parler.  It's crazy what goes on in quiet corners of the internet...

What still worries me is that a significant portion of these Trump radicals get organized enough to ramp up domestic terrorism.  Trump certainly isn't going to talk them down and he still has 2 solid months to fill their minds with the narrative that their country has been stolen from them, that their 2nd amendment rights will be suspended leaving them 'helpless', etc...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5730 on: November 23, 2020, 04:18:59 PM »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5731 on: November 23, 2020, 04:22:16 PM »
That is good news!

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5732 on: November 23, 2020, 04:30:48 PM »
The GSA has informed Biden that transition can begin.  Hallelujah!

God, finally! Between this and my state certifying the election, it feels like time for a celebration. Which will of course be at home because COVID, but whatever.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5733 on: November 23, 2020, 04:50:19 PM »
I wouldn't say it is a system of kings, but more a system of wealth and power. Becoming president is not the only way you can attain immunity from justice. Maybe the greatest example of the system working as intended as is O.J. Simpson. Here is a man who came from humble beginnings to who went on to obtain such significant status and power that he was able to get away with murder*.

*My personal opinion, proven innocent in criminal court, yadda yadda yadda.

He was not "proven innocent", the government just failed to prove him guilty. Which are very different things, and relevant to the current conversation. No one is ever declared "innocent" by a court of law, they are declared "not guilty". It's not just semantics.

I think in some countries there are "innocent" verdicts as well as "not guilty".  I wonder if that works better than the binary approach the US has.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5734 on: November 23, 2020, 05:39:41 PM »
I'm not sure how helpful it has been for others, but seeing the difference between the 'court of public opinion' vs. the actual courts has helped me feel as though there is still hope for a return to 'normalcy'.  Giuliani gets repeatedly laughed out of the court room, but somehow manages to rally Trump supporters with these media circuses / rallies

I feel as though there is an important lesson here that is not sinking in with the electorate though.  I'm already beginning to worry about 2024...

Do you think that maybe people who don't trust the news also don't trust the court system?  At least 100%?  There is bias.  Otherwise there wouldn't be so much interest in packing the supreme court.

As I see it, right now Trump and his core supporters donít trust the vote tallies (without evidence), they do not trust the media -particularly the traditional centrist ones - they no longer accept the ruling of the courts, they do not believe international observers, or government watchdog agencies or independent experts. Basically, they refute any narrative which contradicts what they believe is true, even absent any real evidence. Itís confirmation bias on steroids.

If they cannot trust any of the institutions specifically there to ensure the rules are observed for fair and free elections, what can be done?
I am still hoping for Parler in real life.  They will all go start their own country where they can live their consipracies and not trust any institution they rely on for their daily survival.

I'd forgotten all about Parler.  It's crazy what goes on in quiet corners of the internet...

What still worries me is that a significant portion of these Trump radicals get organized enough to ramp up domestic terrorism.  Trump certainly isn't going to talk them down and he still has 2 solid months to fill their minds with the narrative that their country has been stolen from them, that their 2nd amendment rights will be suspended leaving them 'helpless', etc...

Teasing a 2024 run, running a news network, running the RNC...militia demigod next?

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5735 on: November 23, 2020, 06:36:17 PM »
The GSA has informed Biden that transition can begin.  Hallelujah!

God, finally! Between this and my state certifying the election, it feels like time for a celebration. Which will of course be at home because COVID, but whatever.

So it actually was inevitable!  I was beginning to think it would drag out until the very, very last possible moment.  All the while, even though nothing seemed to be going his way, I had a nagging feeling that somehow, someway, Trump would find a way to inflict a mortal wound on democracy in order to save himself.  It's a nasty feeling, thinking that a desperate President Trump could gleefully destroy the country (possibly even start a war) if it benefitted him sufficiently.  I think I'm going to sleep a little easier tonight, for the first time in years!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5736 on: November 23, 2020, 06:38:53 PM »
Credit where credit is due, he is good at making people part with their money. Like every con man, it even makes people happy.

He can even convince people that a loss is a win. "He's playing 5d 6d chess!"

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5737 on: November 23, 2020, 07:09:42 PM »
The popular narrative is: Of course heíll run in 2024 ... and is the favorite to be the GOP nominee.

But... thereís a wide field of 2024 hopefuls, including Cotton, Rubio, Lee, Pompeo and Cruz.  Each are shrewd politicians in their own right.  I expect a fair bit of backstabbing to go on, much of it behind the scenes, and all of them with plenty of ammo. Unflattering leaks about his presidency, a rush to secure donors and voters, etc.  Modest gains in the house in 2020 aside , they are calculating enough to realize the Trump presidency has made the GOP future harder, with GA and AZ now in play, and NC and TX uncomfortably close.

In other words - itíll be a four year long fight for party control, with Trump being the common threat to each of their ambitions. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5738 on: November 23, 2020, 07:43:03 PM »
The GSA has informed Biden that transition can begin.  Hallelujah!

God, finally! Between this and my state certifying the election, it feels like time for a celebration. Which will of course be at home because COVID, but whatever.

So it actually was inevitable!  I was beginning to think it would drag out until the very, very last possible moment.  All the while, even though nothing seemed to be going his way, I had a nagging feeling that somehow, someway, Trump would find a way to inflict a mortal wound on democracy in order to save himself.  It's a nasty feeling, thinking that a desperate President Trump could gleefully destroy the country (possibly even start a war) if it benefitted him sufficiently.  I think I'm going to sleep a little easier tonight, for the first time in years!

The movie isn't over.  Everything is conveniently and suspiciously wrapped up, but credits don't roll until January 20. 

MilesTeg

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5739 on: November 23, 2020, 09:05:02 PM »
The popular narrative is: Of course heíll run in 2024 ... and is the favorite to be the GOP nominee.

But... thereís a wide field of 2024 hopefuls, including Cotton, Rubio, Lee, Pompeo and Cruz.  Each are shrewd politicians in their own right.  I expect a fair bit of backstabbing to go on, much of it behind the scenes, and all of them with plenty of ammo. Unflattering leaks about his presidency, a rush to secure donors and voters, etc.  Modest gains in the house in 2020 aside , they are calculating enough to realize the Trump presidency has made the GOP future harder, with GA and AZ now in play, and NC and TX uncomfortably close.

In other words - itíll be a four year long fight for party control, with Trump being the common threat to each of their ambitions.

I doubt Trump makes it 4 years without a undeniable neurological symptoms at a minimum. He's barely holding it together enough to seem marginally cogent as it is. He be done.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5740 on: November 24, 2020, 01:51:32 AM »
As if a working brain was a criteria in the last years!

I think in some countries there are "innocent" verdicts as well as "not guilty".  I wonder if that works better than the binary approach the US has.
I don't know if you mean that, but in Germany the judge can say you are innocent (if there was good proof you didn't do it, like in one murder case where the guy was in prison at that time, a fucking good alibi if you ask me), guilty (as in it is reasonably proofed you were guilty) and free because there was not enough proof (the judge thinks it's possible or even likely you did it but cannot proof it).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5741 on: November 24, 2020, 02:18:51 AM »
The popular narrative is: Of course heíll run in 2024 ... and is the favorite to be the GOP nominee.

But... thereís a wide field of 2024 hopefuls, including Cotton, Rubio, Lee, Pompeo and Cruz.  Each are shrewd politicians in their own right.  I expect a fair bit of backstabbing to go on, much of it behind the scenes, and all of them with plenty of ammo. Unflattering leaks about his presidency, a rush to secure donors and voters, etc.  Modest gains in the house in 2020 aside , they are calculating enough to realize the Trump presidency has made the GOP future harder, with GA and AZ now in play, and NC and TX uncomfortably close.

In other words - itíll be a four year long fight for party control, with Trump being the common threat to each of their ambitions.

I doubt Trump makes it 4 years without a undeniable neurological symptoms at a minimum. He's barely holding it together enough to seem marginally cogent as it is. He be done.
Trump owns the Republican party.  He owns its most fervent supporters, he owns the income stream from them, he owns the data information, he has put his supporters in all the positions of power at National and State level.  Trump will say he is looking at running in 2024 and use that to raise money and shut out the other candidates for the next couple of years.  He will then either run again or annoint either Don Jr or Ivanka in his place.

New York mob boss strategy.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5742 on: November 24, 2020, 05:23:02 AM »
The popular narrative is: Of course heíll run in 2024 ... and is the favorite to be the GOP nominee.

But... thereís a wide field of 2024 hopefuls, including Cotton, Rubio, Lee, Pompeo and Cruz.  Each are shrewd politicians in their own right.  I expect a fair bit of backstabbing to go on, much of it behind the scenes, and all of them with plenty of ammo. Unflattering leaks about his presidency, a rush to secure donors and voters, etc.  Modest gains in the house in 2020 aside , they are calculating enough to realize the Trump presidency has made the GOP future harder, with GA and AZ now in play, and NC and TX uncomfortably close.

In other words - itíll be a four year long fight for party control, with Trump being the common threat to each of their ambitions.

I doubt Trump makes it 4 years without a undeniable neurological symptoms at a minimum. He's barely holding it together enough to seem marginally cogent as it is. He be done.
Trump owns the Republican party.  He owns its most fervent supporters, he owns the income stream from them, he owns the data information, he has put his supporters in all the positions of power at National and State level.  Trump will say he is looking at running in 2024 and use that to raise money and shut out the other candidates for the next couple of years.  He will then either run again or annoint either Don Jr or Ivanka in his place.

New York mob boss strategy.

He owns a shockingly large portion of fevernt supporters, yes.  Iím less convinced of the rest.  Certainly many (most?) of the elected GOP officials are afraid of igniting his ire, but many within the party donít seem to like him either - at least in part because he attacked them so personally.  And like most federal politicians, they are driven at least in part by power, and now Trump has lost his.

Further, they can look at this like anyone else... in four years do they really want to send the guy who lost the incumbency by 6MM votes as their standard bearer against an incumbent?  That sounds like a terrible starting point - imagine if HRC had run again in 2020 (And she actually won the popular vote)...

Iíve no doubt that Trump has plans to run again, and I know heís got a large and loud base that will be behind him.  But I suspect heíll be undermined at every turn by both the Democrats AND many within the GOP - though the GOP will be more subversive about it. More tell-all accounts will come up.  His mad twitter-rages will be met with more backhand comments like ďunfortunately you were unable to win re-election, so we are stuck with thisĒ.  Slowly they will poison his image and reinforce the idea that Trump is a loser who lost by a record number of votes. GOP voters will have ongoing, cantankerous discussions about whether re-nominating him is a good idea much as the Dems did about HRC,

Meanwhile, Trumpís own problems will keep coming.  Heíll say anything to steal the media cycle, yet this time around he wonít be delivering judges to offset his outrageous behavior.  More tell-all bombshell books will come out from his own hand-picked staff seeking to capitalize on their years in the WH (ďI barely knew him/her!í).  Lawsuits will progress, and heíll likely lose or settle quite a few.  Some of his suffering, high-profile businesses will close - particularly absent his ability to funnel millions in federal dollars their way.Trump Jr will continue to be the entitled jerk who thinkís his mission is to Ďown the libsí. 

Thatís just my thinking. Trump saying heíll run now doesnít mean heíll get to in 4 years - itís going to be a tough time (deservedly so) for him and his family without the bully pulpit and full weight of the DOJ behind him.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5743 on: November 24, 2020, 06:27:32 AM »
What gets me is that Trump couldn't even fake caring about the Corona virus. He could have pretended to care about people, had his experts like Fauci speaking to the people on tv on a regular basis. He could have insisted on all 50 states wear masks, social distancing. Insisting on relief funds, PPE and equipment. He could have faked his way thru it all and would have been seen as a hero! Instead, he fought everything. According to Trump, it was the previous administrations fault there was no stockpile of PPE or equipment three years into his administration. Kushner said it was their stockpile. Mmmm, theirs for what? Aren't we the American people who paid for it in the first place? Trump would not lead by example by wearing a mask. He wouldn't cooperate in social distancing at events he hosted or appeared at. With numbers of infections and deaths going up and up he still ignored it all. If for nothing else he did while president, and he was a train wreck of a president, the Covid disaster and lack of doing anything did him in. He can never accept losing. He has to blame fake ballots, fake something. It is always someone else's fault, never his fault. He can't care because he has no heart or soul. Maybe it is time for Little Rocket Man to write Trump another love letter to soothe his hurt feelings. January 20th can't come fast enough!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5744 on: November 24, 2020, 06:46:35 AM »
The popular narrative is: Of course heíll run in 2024 ... and is the favorite to be the GOP nominee.

But... thereís a wide field of 2024 hopefuls, including Cotton, Rubio, Lee, Pompeo and Cruz.  Each are shrewd politicians in their own right.  I expect a fair bit of backstabbing to go on, much of it behind the scenes, and all of them with plenty of ammo. Unflattering leaks about his presidency, a rush to secure donors and voters, etc.  Modest gains in the house in 2020 aside , they are calculating enough to realize the Trump presidency has made the GOP future harder, with GA and AZ now in play, and NC and TX uncomfortably close.

In other words - itíll be a four year long fight for party control, with Trump being the common threat to each of their ambitions.

I doubt Trump makes it 4 years without a undeniable neurological symptoms at a minimum. He's barely holding it together enough to seem marginally cogent as it is. He be done.
Trump owns the Republican party.  He owns its most fervent supporters, he owns the income stream from them, he owns the data information, he has put his supporters in all the positions of power at National and State level.  Trump will say he is looking at running in 2024 and use that to raise money and shut out the other candidates for the next couple of years.  He will then either run again or annoint either Don Jr or Ivanka in his place.

New York mob boss strategy.

He owns a shockingly large portion of fevernt supporters, yes.  Iím less convinced of the rest.  Certainly many (most?) of the elected GOP officials are afraid of igniting his ire, but many within the party donít seem to like him either - at least in part because he attacked them so personally.  And like most federal politicians, they are driven at least in part by power, and now Trump has lost his.

Further, they can look at this like anyone else... in four years do they really want to send the guy who lost the incumbency by 6MM votes as their standard bearer against an incumbent?  That sounds like a terrible starting point - imagine if HRC had run again in 2020 (And she actually won the popular vote)...

Iíve no doubt that Trump has plans to run again, and I know heís got a large and loud base that will be behind him.  But I suspect heíll be undermined at every turn by both the Democrats AND many within the GOP - though the GOP will be more subversive about it. More tell-all accounts will come up.  His mad twitter-rages will be met with more backhand comments like ďunfortunately you were unable to win re-election, so we are stuck with thisĒ.  Slowly they will poison his image and reinforce the idea that Trump is a loser who lost by a record number of votes. GOP voters will have ongoing, cantankerous discussions about whether re-nominating him is a good idea much as the Dems did about HRC,

Meanwhile, Trumpís own problems will keep coming.  Heíll say anything to steal the media cycle, yet this time around he wonít be delivering judges to offset his outrageous behavior.  More tell-all bombshell books will come out from his own hand-picked staff seeking to capitalize on their years in the WH (ďI barely knew him/her!í).  Lawsuits will progress, and heíll likely lose or settle quite a few.  Some of his suffering, high-profile businesses will close - particularly absent his ability to funnel millions in federal dollars their way.Trump Jr will continue to be the entitled jerk who thinkís his mission is to Ďown the libsí. 

Thatís just my thinking. Trump saying heíll run now doesnít mean heíll get to in 4 years - itís going to be a tough time (deservedly so) for him and his family without the bully pulpit and full weight of the DOJ behind him.

We'll know for sure if after 21 Jan the Republicans in office are still trying to kiss his ass or appear afraid of him. I'd put it 50/50 whether he retains control of the party. He's threatened to dictate races for the next couple years and with enough funding and media coverage could pull off something if he keeps his grassroots support.

When you say incumbent do you mean Harris? They could argue that as vice she didn't do anything. And he wouldn't be the guy who lost by 6 million votes, but rather the guy who was cheated by a couple hundred thousand fake votes.

On the other hand, he'd have to keep his base on the hook for nearly four years. They could easily rally around someone else or simply lose interest in him during that time. If he can keep influence over the party through the midterms, he'll shape every win to be all about him.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5745 on: November 24, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
I think January 21st 2020 is much too soon. My prediction is that it will be a gradual distancing from Trump over the next year or so, followed by a lot more internal criticism. Every time the Dems pass a new policy there will be grumbling of ďwell this wouldnít have happened of only Trump could have held onto the WH...Ē

Ambitious politicians from all parties and countries are skilled at undermining their own for personal gain. Cruz, Graham, Pompeo and Lee are all very ambitious (and politically skilled). Look at how quickly the flipped from being Trump critics to being his sycophants for obvious personal gain. Now Trump stands in the way of their ambitions.

Edit; add C Christie to that list ( among others). He recently called Trumpís post election conduct ďa national embarrassmentĒ. Gee, he was a presidential contender too. And was railroaded by Trump before becoming his advisor (and then railroaded again).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 07:31:26 AM by nereo »

DaMa

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5746 on: November 24, 2020, 07:46:14 AM »
As long as he is a candidate he can use campaign contributions to pay legal fees, right?  And siphon money off in any number of other ways. 

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5747 on: November 24, 2020, 09:58:18 AM »
Trumpís 2021 will involve some, or perhaps all, of the following:
1. Departing the White House
2. Divorce
3. Defending against civil lawsuits
4. Defending against criminal tax evasion
5. Devising a plan to avoid business and/or personal bankruptcy

That doesnít even count the various tell-all books. It will be fascinating to watch.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5748 on: November 24, 2020, 10:42:05 AM »
As long as he is a candidate he can use campaign contributions to pay legal fees, right?  And siphon money off in any number of other ways.

Yes. Much of the current donations go to his leadership PAC, "Save America," which can be used to pay salaries for Trump and his children as well as primary certain Republicans, like Kemp, who didn't give the election to him. The PAC money can also be used for renting Trump office space and hotel space.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5749 on: November 24, 2020, 11:10:13 AM »
I think January 21st 2020 is much too soon. My prediction is that it will be a gradual distancing from Trump over the next year or so, followed by a lot more internal criticism. Every time the Dems pass a new policy there will be grumbling of ďwell this wouldnít have happened of only Trump could have held onto the WH...Ē

Ambitious politicians from all parties and countries are skilled at undermining their own for personal gain. Cruz, Graham, Pompeo and Lee are all very ambitious (and politically skilled). Look at how quickly the flipped from being Trump critics to being his sycophants for obvious personal gain. Now Trump stands in the way of their ambitions.

Edit; add C Christie to that list ( among others). He recently called Trumpís post election conduct ďa national embarrassmentĒ. Gee, he was a presidential contender too. And was railroaded by Trump before becoming his advisor (and then railroaded again).

There was an army of skilled and motivated politicians that came after him in 2016 including the aformentioned Cruz and Graham, plus Jeb Bush, who seemingly had every advantage to breezing through to be the nominee. None of that matters in the face of Cult of Personality. Trump consistently had 90%+ support of Republican voters despite everything that happened from The escalator/Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers through today. If he wants the nomination in 2024, it is his.