Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 444470 times)

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5650 on: November 18, 2020, 09:12:54 AM »


Trump has more respect for a turkey than he does for women.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5651 on: November 18, 2020, 10:25:44 AM »
This article about QAnon and game theory is both eye-opening and pretty scary--I'd wondered why QAnon has gotten so much traction in the political and social media spheres, and this article is very thorough in explaining why:  https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

Thanks for sharing.  I have a close family member, I don't know how he feels about QAnon, but he is very distraught about the election results and sees election rigging and media collusion everywhere.  It's been hard to watch.

Sugaree

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5652 on: November 18, 2020, 10:28:29 AM »
In the era before Trump, Giuliana had already built an eight-figure international security consulting firm. It's not clear to me Trump pays him. So why do you think he's sacrificing his reputation for this?

Rudy is up to his eyeballs in debt - mostly the result of several marriages gone bad (IIRC he cheated).


There is a podcast called Trashy Divorces.  The first one is about Rudy.

geekette

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5653 on: November 18, 2020, 10:45:46 AM »
From the latest spam email requesting money for his PAC, er "Election Defense Fund", T**** is claiming credit for SpaceX's launch to the space station.  Really?

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5654 on: November 18, 2020, 12:07:33 PM »
He also claimed electoral victories in pennsylvania, georgia, north carolina, and michigan on November 4th.  He's also lied tens of thousands of other times.  It's absolutely insane the amount of lies that come out of him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Donald_Trump

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5655 on: November 18, 2020, 12:14:34 PM »
The Trump campaign is now 1 for 27 in election lawsuits. Anyone know what the 1 win is? Is it the PA case where provisional ballots were tossed because of a lack of ID by the deadline?


Edit: Yes, it was the PA case. The Trump campaign shortened the ballot cure time to 3 days, disqualifying about 3,000 ballots.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 12:22:34 PM by bacchi »

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5656 on: November 18, 2020, 12:54:12 PM »
The Trump campaign is now 1 for 27 in election lawsuits. Anyone know what the 1 win is? Is it the PA case where provisional ballots were tossed because of a lack of ID by the deadline?


Edit: Yes, it was the PA case. The Trump campaign shortened the ballot cure time to 3 days, disqualifying about 3,000 ballots.

I'm pretty sure the Tramp campaign does not have that authority?

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5657 on: November 18, 2020, 12:56:40 PM »
The Trump campaign is now 1 for 27 in election lawsuits. Anyone know what the 1 win is? Is it the PA case where provisional ballots were tossed because of a lack of ID by the deadline?


Edit: Yes, it was the PA case. The Trump campaign shortened the ballot cure time to 3 days, disqualifying about 3,000 ballots.

I'm pretty sure the Tramp campaign does not have that authority?

Local officials tried to extend the deadline shortly before the election and it was ruled that they couldn't do that. In other words, the Trump campaign's lawsuit was successful in resetting the shorter deadline. In (somewhat misleading, but nonetheless common usage) shorthand, the Trump campaign shortened the deadline

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5658 on: November 18, 2020, 01:13:03 PM »
This article about QAnon and game theory is both eye-opening and pretty scary--I'd wondered why QAnon has gotten so much traction in the political and social media spheres, and this article is very thorough in explaining why:  https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

Thanks for sharing.  I have a close family member, I don't know how he feels about QAnon, but he is very distraught about the election results and sees election rigging and media collusion everywhere.  It's been hard to watch.
There is an easy way to decide if something is likely true, possible, unlikely or just a conspiracy theory.
It's called math.

You need
A) the number of people needed to pull it off
B) the number of people in the position to (relativly easy) see it and not saying anything (or shooting photos)
B) amount of public interest
D) time

Then you just 1/(A*B*C*D)= likelyhood of true (of course not a definite number, it's a rule of thumb)

For example, the Nazis were fairly informed about the atomic bomb, even though it was the most secret project ever and 2/3 of the budget went into hiding it. There were people working on the other side of a wall from the bomb not knowing what was done there, just delivering strange stuff.
But it involved so many people there were leaks.

If we take the election we have
A) thousands. At least.
B) possibly hundreds of thousands
C) Extreme
D) low

If you put the number together you come to the conclusion that a election with a rigging for Democrats that is bigger than the rigging already in place for Republicans is very very unlikely.


And if you look really really close, trust your eyes and don't take their words, you can see it is all the solar cell industry having bought all the media outlets so that they can take over the place of fracking, which is in trouble because of solar and because of low oil prices that are based on the fake Coronavirus!

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5659 on: November 18, 2020, 01:23:43 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5660 on: November 18, 2020, 01:51:26 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5661 on: November 18, 2020, 01:52:24 PM »
He made just as much of a fool of himself as we thought he would. Some analysts were wondering if he even read the suit before showing up. He was a little light on basic procedures, lingo, and once again anything more substantial than wild accusations. You're not on Fox News anymore Rudy.

One of yesterday's headlines said he's getting paid $20,000 a day to be Trump's legal counsel. Wonder if Trump would dare not pay him?

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5662 on: November 18, 2020, 01:53:01 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Here you go, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8pGE1V1sI&t=5m45s

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5663 on: November 18, 2020, 01:53:41 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Here you go, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8pGE1V1sI&t=5m45s

Fake News!

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5664 on: November 18, 2020, 01:58:58 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Here you go, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8pGE1V1sI&t=5m45s

Fake News!

“These are Dr. Fauci’s Trump's own words,” Tim Murtaugh, a campaign spokesman, said in an emailed statement. “The video is from a multiple nationally broadcast television interviews in which Dr. Fauci Trump was praising the work of the Trump administration Joe Biden. The words spoken are accurate and directly from Dr. Fauci’s Trump's mouth.”

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5665 on: November 18, 2020, 02:04:41 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Here you go, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8pGE1V1sI&t=5m45s

Fake News!

Has Trump ever uttered the word "humbly'???

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5666 on: November 18, 2020, 02:24:41 PM »
Wasn't the fake Corona virus supposed to disappear right after the election?

Is the election over?  I don't remember a concession speech from the current president.

Here you go, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8pGE1V1sI&t=5m45s

Fake News!

Has Trump ever uttered the word "humbly'???

I know, right? When I watched that video, my first reaction was, "Whoa, what speech was that from?!"

Edit: Aha. Of course. When he accepted the nomination in 2016. Reading, of course, from a speech written for him.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2016/07/21/trump-i-humbly-and-gratefully-accept-the-nomination.html

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5667 on: November 18, 2020, 03:11:47 PM »
This article about QAnon and game theory is both eye-opening and pretty scary--I'd wondered why QAnon has gotten so much traction in the political and social media spheres, and this article is very thorough in explaining why:  https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5
So in the words of a writer, QAnon is a Plot Bunny Factory.

But do they really think there is a person named Q telling them "search for X to find the answer"? I always thought that Q was a reference to Q from 007.

Huh, I thought it was a reference to the Q-continuum.      (Another case of apophenia?)

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5668 on: November 18, 2020, 03:41:35 PM »
I Imagine that he will do actual pardons of people. Why not?

I'm guessing they will be a surprise pardon(s) snuck onto the traditional pardoning of the White House turkeys.

"...  And in the spirit of Thanksgiving, and with the full authority of the office of the President of the United States, I bestow a FULL and ABSOLUTE pardon on these two FANTASTIC turkeys, and also Rudy Giuliani and Michael Flynn.  Thank you and god bless.  No questions."

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5669 on: November 18, 2020, 03:56:38 PM »
I'm guessing they will be a surprise pardon(s) snuck onto the traditional pardoning of the White House turkeys.

"...  And in the spirit of Thanksgiving, and with the full authority of the office of the President of the United States, I bestow a FULL and ABSOLUTE pardon on these two FANTASTIC turkeys, and also Rudy Giuliani and Michael Flynn.  Thank you and god bless.  No questions."

More likely, given the quality of Giuliani's recent court arguments, Trump will issue "FULL and ABSOLUTE pardon to this BEAUTIFUL member of the NOBLE turkey family. Wow, that's a STRONG BIRD." And then Giuliani will legally change his name to "Peas and Carrots" and claim that the pardon applies to him too.

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5670 on: November 18, 2020, 05:13:38 PM »
This article about QAnon and game theory is both eye-opening and pretty scary--I'd wondered why QAnon has gotten so much traction in the political and social media spheres, and this article is very thorough in explaining why:  https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

Thanks for sharing.  I have a close family member, I don't know how he feels about QAnon, but he is very distraught about the election results and sees election rigging and media collusion everywhere.  It's been hard to watch.
There is an easy way to decide if something is likely true, possible, unlikely or just a conspiracy theory.
It's called math.

You need
A) the number of people needed to pull it off
B) the number of people in the position to (relativly easy) see it and not saying anything (or shooting photos)
B) amount of public interest
D) time

Then you just 1/(A*B*C*D)= likelyhood of true (of course not a definite number, it's a rule of thumb)

For example, the Nazis were fairly informed about the atomic bomb, even though it was the most secret project ever and 2/3 of the budget went into hiding it. There were people working on the other side of a wall from the bomb not knowing what was done there, just delivering strange stuff.
But it involved so many people there were leaks.

If we take the election we have
A) thousands. At least.
B) possibly hundreds of thousands
C) Extreme
D) low

If you put the number together you come to the conclusion that a election with a rigging for Democrats that is bigger than the rigging already in place for Republicans is very very unlikely.


And if you look really really close, trust your eyes and don't take their words, you can see it is all the solar cell industry having bought all the media outlets so that they can take over the place of fracking, which is in trouble because of solar and because of low oil prices that are based on the fake Coronavirus!
This so so true. Having possessed security clearances in my last life and worked on projects of national security, it was frustrating to see how much effort and money we as employees and our government contractor went to to keep this classified info classified, only to see stuff leaked to the press, usually from politicians. So even when you have Big Important Stuff and threats of fines and prison sentences the stuff still doesn’t stay secret all the time. You really expect a bunch of random people to keep secrets for large coordinated projects like pedophilia cannibal rings or election fraud across may states or hiding alien bodies in the desert or whatever other nonsense is going around? I don’t think people are sophisticated enough for it.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5671 on: November 18, 2020, 05:52:23 PM »
Sigh. This is just pathetic.
Reuters: Trump campaign changes tack, then switches back in Pennsylvania election lawsuit

Quote
President Donald Trump’s campaign sought on Wednesday to reintroduce claims to a Pennsylvania election lawsuit that it removed three days ago, saying it would ask that Trump be declared the winner of the battleground state.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5672 on: November 18, 2020, 07:40:51 PM »
This article about QAnon and game theory is both eye-opening and pretty scary--I'd wondered why QAnon has gotten so much traction in the political and social media spheres, and this article is very thorough in explaining why:  https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5

Thanks for sharing.  I have a close family member, I don't know how he feels about QAnon, but he is very distraught about the election results and sees election rigging and media collusion everywhere.  It's been hard to watch.
There is an easy way to decide if something is likely true, possible, unlikely or just a conspiracy theory.
It's called math.

You need
A) the number of people needed to pull it off
B) the number of people in the position to (relativly easy) see it and not saying anything (or shooting photos)
B) amount of public interest
D) time

Then you just 1/(A*B*C*D)= likelyhood of true (of course not a definite number, it's a rule of thumb)

For example, the Nazis were fairly informed about the atomic bomb, even though it was the most secret project ever and 2/3 of the budget went into hiding it. There were people working on the other side of a wall from the bomb not knowing what was done there, just delivering strange stuff.
But it involved so many people there were leaks.

If we take the election we have
A) thousands. At least.
B) possibly hundreds of thousands
C) Extreme
D) low

If you put the number together you come to the conclusion that a election with a rigging for Democrats that is bigger than the rigging already in place for Republicans is very very unlikely.


And if you look really really close, trust your eyes and don't take their words, you can see it is all the solar cell industry having bought all the media outlets so that they can take over the place of fracking, which is in trouble because of solar and because of low oil prices that are based on the fake Coronavirus!

The problem with your line of thinking, is that often the conspiracy theorists think they have caught the conspiracy.  They see the evidence.  They just think everyone is are willingly blind sheeple.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5673 on: November 19, 2020, 03:47:12 AM »
The problem with your line of thinking, is that often the conspiracy theorists think they have caught the conspiracy.  They see the evidence.  They just think everyone is are willingly blind sheeple.
Yes, the problem is what they define as evidence. Numerology just doesn't cut it for me outside novels. Not to mention what a friend of a friend of an anonymous internet user says. (btw. the oh-so secret Freemasons have an yearly open door day in the town where I lived before. They also explain their symbols there if you ask. I never got around going there, but the newspaper had an article.)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5674 on: November 19, 2020, 05:44:42 AM »
My vote still isn't certified. Fuck this shit and the cult of Trump.

Detroit Free Press: GOP members of Wayne County Board of Canvassers vote against certifying election results

Quote
On Tuesday, the two Republican members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers cast an unprecedented vote against certifying the county's November election results for the county's 43 jurisdictions, including Detroit, Michigan's largest voting jurisdiction.
Sounds like they just change the vote and certified it.

Sounds like time to have a nice cup of your favorite beverage and sleep well tonight :)


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Now they want take-backsies. The Trump campaign must be unhappy.

WXYZ Detroit: Two Wayne County Board of Canvassers look to reverse decision again after certifying election results

Quote
WAYNE COUNTY, Mich. (WXYZ) — Two GOP members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers are looking to reverse their decision again after certifying the election results Tuesday evening.

Monica Palmer, chair of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, and William Hartmann, one of two Republicans on the Board, filed signed affidavits Wednesday night demanding to rescind their "yes" certification votes.

"I fully believe the Wayne County vote should not be verified," Palmer said in an affidavit. "The Wayne County election had serious process flaws which deserve investigation. I continue to ask for information to assure Wayne County voters that these elections were conducted fairly and accurately.”

According to Hartmann in his affidavit, “Late in the evening, I was enticed to agree to certify based on the promise that a full and independent audit would take place. I would not have agreed to the certification but for the promise of an audit.”

So I still don't know if my vote will count.

I will never consider voting for a Republican again unless the party implodes and rebuilds from scratch. The entire party appears to operate on self-claimed victimhood, projection of personal faults onto others, and deflection/abdication of personal responsibility and adherence to facts. If I didn't have to remain publicly independent for a nonprofit position, I would register as a Democrat.

the_fixer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5675 on: November 19, 2020, 06:49:12 AM »
Between this and other stuff they are doing it looks like more than just trying to pump trumps ego, fill his pockets with money from donors or keeping the momentum going for GA.

If it were just about the money or ego that could be done with their tweets and posturing but it seems like they are truly trying to cause the election to not be certified in several states.

So what is the endgame at this point?

What are the realistic impact of not getting the vote certified?

———-

@otherJen sorry your area is being dragged through the mud it really is sad how they are acting.


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nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5676 on: November 19, 2020, 07:05:59 AM »
I think that IS the endgame. If you can’t win, make sure you don’t lose. If the election isn’t certified, technically it isn’t over.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5677 on: November 19, 2020, 07:10:23 AM »
I think that IS the endgame. If you can’t win, make sure you don’t lose. If the election isn’t certified, technically it isn’t over.

Yeah I agree. I think it's fairly clear that Trump will not be able to stay in office. But the more fear/uncertainty/doubt he can foment about the election, the more people will continue to listen to him / give him money afterwards. Half of Republicans think that Trump really won the election. The GOP is doing everything they can to increase that number as high as they can to maintain Trump's highly motivated and radicalized base, and they don't care about minor things like "destroying democracy" along the way.

katsiki

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5678 on: November 19, 2020, 07:11:37 AM »
It also helps him to run again in 2024.  I truly hope that doesn't materialize for so many reasons.  Ugh!

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5679 on: November 19, 2020, 07:24:52 AM »
They probably had this planned all along, but expected a much closer outcome.   If Biden had only won by a narrow victory in a single swing state, and Trump could conceivably win by pulling some courthouse shenanigans I'd be scared.  But he needs to flip a minimum of 3 states back to him.  There appears to be no evidence of fraud, and they've been looking for it hardcore, so I'm not expecting anything election changing to emerge at this point in any states, let alone 3+.  What have they got to lose to trying to sue and seize power?  If they get laughed out of court, they already lost anyway and clearly have no shame, so just lost money which they are soliciting donations for anyway.  If they win, then they just stole an election and seized power. 

The republican party is so reprehensible at this point I will never be able to vote republican.  If they implode and rebuild they need a new name because this one is tainted forevermore. 

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5680 on: November 19, 2020, 07:26:50 AM »
It also helps him to run again in 2024.  I truly hope that doesn't materialize for so many reasons.  Ugh!
I don’t want trump to run in 2024 because I don’t want another entire thread of outrage or the damage it will have to our country. But I also think it would be a big mistake for the GOP to nominate him again. They lost the opportunity to pass some serious conservative legislation because Trump couldn’t focus and they spent too much time defending the circus. I also don’t think the best person to challenge a presumptive Biden in  2024 is someone who lost to him four years prior.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5681 on: November 19, 2020, 07:28:59 AM »
I think that IS the endgame. If you can’t win, make sure you don’t lose. If the election isn’t certified, technically it isn’t over.

Yeah I agree. I think it's fairly clear that Trump will not be able to stay in office. But the more fear/uncertainty/doubt he can foment about the election, the more people will continue to listen to him / give him money afterwards. Half of Republicans think that Trump really won the election. The GOP is doing everything they can to increase that number as high as they can to maintain Trump's highly motivated and radicalized base, and they don't care about minor things like "destroying democracy" along the way.
I am not so sure that it is about keeping the base happy, they would be happy with just tweets, frivolous lawsuits and grand gestures.

In the end I think they will end up pissing off more voters so I do not see this as beneficial for garnering more votes in the future. He already has the base and they are not going anywhere.

It really comes across as more than that.


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sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5682 on: November 19, 2020, 07:32:59 AM »
I don’t want trump to run in 2024 because I don’t want another entire thread of outrage or the damage it will have to our country. But I also think it would be a big mistake for the GOP to nominate him again. They lost the opportunity to pass some serious conservative legislation because Trump couldn’t focus and they spent too much time defending the circus. I also don’t think the best person to challenge a presumptive Biden in  2024 is someone who lost to him four years prior.

The GOP "establishment" / organization absolutely knows this and definitely does not want Trump to run again. They didn't want him to run the first time. The GOP voters absolutely adore Trump in a way they've never loved any other President in history, and will absolutely nominate him again if he runs.

If 2024 is really Trump v Biden part II then I expect Biden to win again, even more convincingly. But that doesn't mean they're not going to try. The GOP is now 100% a delusional conspiracy theorist party, facts and reality and logic have absolutely no bearing on their decision-making process.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5683 on: November 19, 2020, 07:49:31 AM »
My vote still isn't certified. Fuck this shit and the cult of Trump.

Detroit Free Press: GOP members of Wayne County Board of Canvassers vote against certifying election results

Quote
On Tuesday, the two Republican members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers cast an unprecedented vote against certifying the county's November election results for the county's 43 jurisdictions, including Detroit, Michigan's largest voting jurisdiction.
Sounds like they just change the vote and certified it.

Sounds like time to have a nice cup of your favorite beverage and sleep well tonight :)


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Now they want take-backsies. The Trump campaign must be unhappy.

WXYZ Detroit: Two Wayne County Board of Canvassers look to reverse decision again after certifying election results

Quote
WAYNE COUNTY, Mich. (WXYZ) — Two GOP members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers are looking to reverse their decision again after certifying the election results Tuesday evening.

Monica Palmer, chair of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, and William Hartmann, one of two Republicans on the Board, filed signed affidavits Wednesday night demanding to rescind their "yes" certification votes.

"I fully believe the Wayne County vote should not be verified," Palmer said in an affidavit. "The Wayne County election had serious process flaws which deserve investigation. I continue to ask for information to assure Wayne County voters that these elections were conducted fairly and accurately.”

According to Hartmann in his affidavit, “Late in the evening, I was enticed to agree to certify based on the promise that a full and independent audit would take place. I would not have agreed to the certification but for the promise of an audit.”

So I still don't know if my vote will count.

I will never consider voting for a Republican again unless the party implodes and rebuilds from scratch. The entire party appears to operate on self-claimed victimhood, projection of personal faults onto others, and deflection/abdication of personal responsibility and adherence to facts. If I didn't have to remain publicly independent for a nonprofit position, I would register as a Democrat.
I had a heck of a time fact checking the "irregularities" that supposedly happened in Michigan.  I wanted to know what they were.  I found this https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/detroit-elections-worker-alleges-she-directly-observed-voters-coached-to-pick-joe-biden/ar-BB1aQjN1.  I found that the election was certified.  And that the irregularities will be investigated.  Do you agree that these allegations should be investigated?

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5684 on: November 19, 2020, 07:50:37 AM »
Oh, look, the Wayne County canvassing board is attempting a "take-backsies":

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/trump-outrage-of-the-day/msg2736867/?topicseen#new

So right at the critical moment they flip to certify the elections, then they flip back to try to appease Trump right after.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5685 on: November 19, 2020, 07:51:13 AM »
They probably had this planned all along, but expected a much closer outcome.   If Biden had only won by a narrow victory in a single swing state, and Trump could conceivably win by pulling some courthouse shenanigans I'd be scared.  But he needs to flip a minimum of 3 states back to him.  There appears to be no evidence of fraud, and they've been looking for it hardcore, so I'm not expecting anything election changing to emerge at this point in any states, let alone 3+.  What have they got to lose to trying to sue and seize power?  If they get laughed out of court, they already lost anyway and clearly have no shame, so just lost money which they are soliciting donations for anyway.  If they win, then they just stole an election and seized power. 

The republican party is so reprehensible at this point I will never be able to vote republican.  If they implode and rebuild they need a new name because this one is tainted forevermore.
How many states would they need to not certify? Seems their efforts are in MI, WI and PA and AZ.

I know some pretty ruthless win at all cost people and could see them doing something like this.

I really hope I am just reading too much into the situation but I think Trump is a win at any cost kind of guy.


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OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5686 on: November 19, 2020, 07:58:38 AM »
My vote still isn't certified. Fuck this shit and the cult of Trump.

Detroit Free Press: GOP members of Wayne County Board of Canvassers vote against certifying election results

Quote
On Tuesday, the two Republican members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers cast an unprecedented vote against certifying the county's November election results for the county's 43 jurisdictions, including Detroit, Michigan's largest voting jurisdiction.
Sounds like they just change the vote and certified it.

Sounds like time to have a nice cup of your favorite beverage and sleep well tonight :)


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Now they want take-backsies. The Trump campaign must be unhappy.

WXYZ Detroit: Two Wayne County Board of Canvassers look to reverse decision again after certifying election results

Quote
WAYNE COUNTY, Mich. (WXYZ) — Two GOP members of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers are looking to reverse their decision again after certifying the election results Tuesday evening.

Monica Palmer, chair of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, and William Hartmann, one of two Republicans on the Board, filed signed affidavits Wednesday night demanding to rescind their "yes" certification votes.

"I fully believe the Wayne County vote should not be verified," Palmer said in an affidavit. "The Wayne County election had serious process flaws which deserve investigation. I continue to ask for information to assure Wayne County voters that these elections were conducted fairly and accurately.”

According to Hartmann in his affidavit, “Late in the evening, I was enticed to agree to certify based on the promise that a full and independent audit would take place. I would not have agreed to the certification but for the promise of an audit.”

So I still don't know if my vote will count.

I will never consider voting for a Republican again unless the party implodes and rebuilds from scratch. The entire party appears to operate on self-claimed victimhood, projection of personal faults onto others, and deflection/abdication of personal responsibility and adherence to facts. If I didn't have to remain publicly independent for a nonprofit position, I would register as a Democrat.
I had a heck of a time fact checking the "irregularities" that supposedly happened in Michigan.  I wanted to know what they were.  I found this https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/detroit-elections-worker-alleges-she-directly-observed-voters-coached-to-pick-joe-biden/ar-BB1aQjN1.  I found that the election was certified.  And that the irregularities will be investigated.  Do you agree that these allegations should be investigated?

If these were credible allegations, then yes, they should have been investigated. However, a very highly respected (by friends who are county prosecutors or district court justices) county circuit court judge found that these allegations were not backed by any credible evidence and tossed out the suit. Michigan Judge Rejects Challenge to Detroit Election Results

Quote
Kenny acknowledged the seriousness of the accusations but was not convinced.

“Ms. Jacob’s information is generalized. It asserts behavior with no date, location or frequency or names of employees,” he wrote. “In addition, [she] offers no indication of whether she took steps to address the alleged misconduct or to [alert] any supervisor about the alleged voter fraud. Ms. Jacob only came forward after the unofficial results of the voting indicated former Vice President Biden was the winner in the state of Michigan.”

Jacob is not a party to the lawsuit, which was filed by Wayne County voters Cheryl A. Costantino and Edward P. McCall Jr. The complaint, relying on affidavits from Jacob and others, alleges poll workers were instructed by election officials to not verify signatures on absentee ballots and process them regardless of their validity.

Kenny rejected Jacob’s assertion of a “sinister motive” on the part of election officials, pointing specifically to her claims that supervisors told her not to compare signatures to verify voter eligibility and directed her to pre-date absentee ballots received at Detroit’s TCF Center the day after Election Day.

“Evidence offered by long-time State Elections Director Christopher Thomas, however, reveals there was no need for comparison of signatures at the TCF Center because eligibility had been reviewed and determined at the Detroit election headquarters,” the ruling states. “As to the allegation of ‘pre-dating’ ballots, Mr. Thomas explains that this action completed a data field inadvertently left blank during the initial absentee ballot verification process.”

I was an election worker in a Wayne county precinct and serve as the voter education director for a local non-partisan, non-profit voters' rights organization. I've had multiple conversations this year with two local municipal clerks, a representative from the MI Secretary of State, and a representative from the MI ACLU about absentee voting and election day poll processes. What would you like to know about how the election process works here?

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5687 on: November 19, 2020, 08:09:28 AM »
So I still don't know if my vote will count.

I will never consider voting for a Republican again unless the party implodes and rebuilds from scratch. The entire party appears to operate on self-claimed victimhood, projection of personal faults onto others, and deflection/abdication of personal responsibility and adherence to facts. If I didn't have to remain publicly independent for a nonprofit position, I would register as a Democrat.
I had a heck of a time fact checking the "irregularities" that supposedly happened in Michigan.  I wanted to know what they were.  I found this https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/detroit-elections-worker-alleges-she-directly-observed-voters-coached-to-pick-joe-biden/ar-BB1aQjN1.  I found that the election was certified.  And that the irregularities will be investigated.  Do you agree that these allegations should be investigated?

You didn't look very hard. The Republican Wayne County Canvassers have never referenced that claim. Instead the excuse for the hold-up is that a bunch of precinct books are minorly "out-of-balance", eg they say that 1000 people voted in that precinct and 900 voted for Biden and 99 voted for Trump, so they're missing one vote somewhere and are "out-of-balance". Apparently 70% of the precinct books are missing 1 to 4 votes somewhere. Relevant article:
 
Quote
The board's votes came after absentee ballot poll books at 70% of Detroit's 134 absentee counting boards were found to be out of balance without explanation. The mismatches varied anywhere from one to more than four votes.

In August, canvassers found 72% of Detroit's absentee voting precincts didn't match the number of ballots cast. The imbalances between August and November are not an exact comparison since August's canvassing was based on results from 503 precincts and November's canvassing was based on 134 counting boards.

The situation in August and earlier imbalances in 2016 were not enough to keep the same board from certifying the results in this year's primary and November 2016.
...
Benson said it is common for some precincts to be out of balance by a small number of votes, especially in large turnout elections. Michigan's general election set a record with a turnout of 5.5 million voters.

"Michigan’s Bureau of Elections stands ready to fulfill its duty to complete the canvas for Wayne County, address any clerical errors and improve the quality of the canvass overall," Benson said in a statement. "Importantly, this is not an indication that any votes were improperly cast or tabulated."
...
Out-of-balance boards are “absolutely” not evidence that something improper had occurred, said Chris Thomas, Michigan’s former longtime elections director who is working with Detroit Clerk Janice Winfrey’s office.

Thomas said city officials would work with the Michigan Board of State Canvassers to ensure the results ultimately get certified.

“That is not going to happen,” Thomas said about the claim Wayne County voters would be disenfranchised.

The former state elections director said he doesn’t expect the state board, which features two Republicans and two Democrats, to deadlock. If board members deadlock, a court will likely tell them to tell them to do their jobs, Thomas said.

Edit to say: the existence of this kind of problem is actually evidence that there isn't any fraud going on. If you're counting thousands of votes its easy to miscount one or write a number down wrong or something. If you're just making up numbers then it's a simple subtraction problem, and one would expect the totals to be "in balance" so that they wouldn't attract attention.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 08:21:20 AM by sherr »

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5688 on: November 19, 2020, 08:26:01 AM »
So I still don't know if my vote will count.

I will never consider voting for a Republican again unless the party implodes and rebuilds from scratch. The entire party appears to operate on self-claimed victimhood, projection of personal faults onto others, and deflection/abdication of personal responsibility and adherence to facts. If I didn't have to remain publicly independent for a nonprofit position, I would register as a Democrat.
I had a heck of a time fact checking the "irregularities" that supposedly happened in Michigan.  I wanted to know what they were.  I found this https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/detroit-elections-worker-alleges-she-directly-observed-voters-coached-to-pick-joe-biden/ar-BB1aQjN1.  I found that the election was certified.  And that the irregularities will be investigated.  Do you agree that these allegations should be investigated?

You didn't look very hard. The Republican Wayne County Canvassers are have never referenced that claim. Instead the excuse for the hold-up is that a bunch of precinct books are minorly "out-of-balance", eg they say that 1000 people voted in that precinct and 900 voted for Biden and 99 voted for Trump, so they're missing one vote somewhere and are "out-of-balance". Apparently 70% of the precinct books are missing 1 to 4 votes somewhere. Relevant article:
 
Quote
The board's votes came after absentee ballot poll books at 70% of Detroit's 134 absentee counting boards were found to be out of balance without explanation. The mismatches varied anywhere from one to more than four votes.

In August, canvassers found 72% of Detroit's absentee voting precincts didn't match the number of ballots cast. The imbalances between August and November are not an exact comparison since August's canvassing was based on results from 503 precincts and November's canvassing was based on 134 counting boards.

The situation in August and earlier imbalances in 2016 were not enough to keep the same board from certifying the results in this year's primary and November 2016.
...
Benson said it is common for some precincts to be out of balance by a small number of votes, especially in large turnout elections. Michigan's general election set a record with a turnout of 5.5 million voters.

"Michigan’s Bureau of Elections stands ready to fulfill its duty to complete the canvas for Wayne County, address any clerical errors and improve the quality of the canvass overall," Benson said in a statement. "Importantly, this is not an indication that any votes were improperly cast or tabulated."
...
Out-of-balance boards are “absolutely” not evidence that something improper had occurred, said Chris Thomas, Michigan’s former longtime elections director who is working with Detroit Clerk Janice Winfrey’s office.

Thomas said city officials would work with the Michigan Board of State Canvassers to ensure the results ultimately get certified.

“That is not going to happen,” Thomas said about the claim Wayne County voters would be disenfranchised.

The former state elections director said he doesn’t expect the state board, which features two Republicans and two Democrats, to deadlock. If board members deadlock, a court will likely tell them to tell them to do their jobs, Thomas said.

Edit to say: the existence of this kind of problem is actually evidence that there isn't any fraud going on. If you're counting thousands of votes its easy to miscount one or write a number down wrong or something. If you're just making up numbers then it's a simple subtraction problem, and one would expect the totals to be "in balance" so that they wouldn't attract attention.

It even happens with in-person voters. In August, one of my fellow pollworkers clicked the wrong name in the e-pollbook and issued a ballot before realizing that she'd done so. She spoiled that ballot and issued a new one to the correct voter, but the e-pollbook software correctly records everything. So the voter whose name was mistakenly selected was listed as having shown up but not having voted. That was a 1-vote discrepancy at the end of the day.

It could also happen if a voter made a mistake on their ballot that caused the tabulator to reject it, but refused to fill out a new ballot and left. Again, that person would be listed as a voter in the e-pollbook and application spindle, but the actual ballot would not be included in the tabulator count.

In my suburb, the precinct chairs and co-chairs haul all of the sealed ballot and memory card cases, the e-pollbook laptops, and SO much signed and certified paperwork back to City hall after the polls are closed down, and then we all wait (for 2 hours this time) while the clerk's office pores over everything and investigates any irregularities before sending the hard copies to the county for certification.

skp

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5689 on: November 19, 2020, 11:02:40 AM »
[qu
I was an election worker in a Wayne county precinct and serve as the voter education director for a local non-partisan, non-profit voters' rights organization. I've had multiple conversations this year with two local municipal clerks, a representative from the MI Secretary of State, and a representative from the MI ACLU about absentee voting and election day poll processes. What would you like to know about how the election process works here?
[/quote]
I do have a question.  I made a comment recently that in Ohio there had to be bipartisan presence at the polls to prevent vote tampering.  I assume that is also present during absentee ballot counting.  You said the same thing happens to Michigan "to the best of their ability". I found this article https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/gop-calls-michigan-election-probe-officials-say-their-claims-are-weak which shows that there was more "irregularities" than I originally thought.  So my question is I understand that Detroit is primarily a democratic area.  Does that mean that they have trouble getting republican poll workers?  Was there equal representation of Republicans to Democrats at the polls and when counting absentee ballots.  Were the Republicans trying to  "barge their way in, harass and poll watch"  trained at all (the article said "improperly" trained.)    Would there presence there make them outnumber the Dems or "even"   the representation?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5690 on: November 19, 2020, 11:18:17 AM »

I do have a question.  I made a comment recently that in Ohio there had to be bipartisan presence at the polls to prevent vote tampering.  I assume that is also present during absentee ballot counting.  You said the same thing happens to Michigan "to the best of their ability". I found this article https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/gop-calls-michigan-election-probe-officials-say-their-claims-are-weak which shows that there was more "irregularities" than I originally thought.  So my question is I understand that Detroit is primarily a democratic area.  Does that mean that they have trouble getting republican poll workers?  Was there equal representation of Republicans to Democrats at the polls and when counting absentee ballots.  Were the Republicans trying to  "barge their way in, harass and poll watch"  trained at all (the article said "improperly" trained.)    Would there presence there make them outnumber the Dems or "even"   the representation?

Why do you assume that elections must have 'equal' (i.e. 50/50) representation of poll-watchers in order for them to be fair and free?  If a particular polling place could be properly observed by three Dem and three GOP poll watchers, would it become inherently 'unfair' if there were three GOP and fifty-three Dem poll watchers?  Or Six-and-zero?

The methods on how the election is conducted are what make them free and fair.  Poll watchers merely ensure that the methods are being properly followed. 

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5691 on: November 19, 2020, 11:18:37 AM »
Here's an "at the time" article about these (Republican and Democratic) poll watchers being barred because the room was at capacity. Skip the first few paragraphs which are just generic context about the election.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5692 on: November 19, 2020, 11:30:21 AM »
Quote

I was an election worker in a Wayne county precinct and serve as the voter education director for a local non-partisan, non-profit voters' rights organization. I've had multiple conversations this year with two local municipal clerks, a representative from the MI Secretary of State, and a representative from the MI ACLU about absentee voting and election day poll processes. What would you like to know about how the election process works here?
I do have a question.  I made a comment recently that in Ohio there had to be bipartisan presence at the polls to prevent vote tampering.  I assume that is also present during absentee ballot counting.  You said the same thing happens to Michigan "to the best of their ability". I found this article https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/gop-calls-michigan-election-probe-officials-say-their-claims-are-weak which shows that there was more "irregularities" than I originally thought.  So my question is I understand that Detroit is primarily a democratic area.  Does that mean that they have trouble getting republican poll workers?  Was there equal representation of Republicans to Democrats at the polls and when counting absentee ballots.  Were the Republicans trying to  "barge their way in, harass and poll watch"  trained at all (the article said "improperly" trained.)    Would there presence there make them outnumber the Dems or "even"   the representation?

It would be helpful to cite articles that are not almost 2 weeks old, as the "irregularities" have been addressed in court and dismissed as not supported by actual evidence by this point. The ones cited in the article involved human errors in both heavily Democrat and heavily Republican areas of the state and have been addressed in the local auditing and certification processes. As noted in this week's articles, these types of errors are generally clerical, occur in every election, affect relatively small numbers of ballots (or are even simply data reporting errors), and are handled through normal channels. Obviously there would be more absentee ballot-related issues this year, given the trifecta of 1) the first election under new state laws regarding absentee ballot access, 2) a pandemic, and 3) a party leader who convinced many of his followers that absentee ballots were all prone to fraud (despite voting absentee himself). None of this is surprising, especially given the push from one side to declare the election fraudulent before it even happened.

Here in Michigan, each precinct is required to have at least one GOP and one Dem poll worker. Those workers have to be onsite during poll opening and closing procedures. This can be challenging in heavily Dem areas, and in fact at least one local clerk was specifically advertising for GOP workers last month (and was ultimately able to meet the requirement). There was a statewide initiative to hire election workers to improve the election process in the city of Detroit. Because many outstate areas (and indeed, many areas of Wayne County) are strongly GOP, balancing the precinct workers on election day does not seem to have been a problem.

In Detroit, the absentee votes were processed at the TCF conference center downtown because it was large enough to allow the ballot processing teams to spread out, given the state pandemic regulations. These regulations did cap the number of people in the room, but the regulations required at least one GOP and one Dem election challenger at each counting team table at all times. Things only started to get hairy when it became evident that the absentee ballots were tilting in favor of Biden (as expected, and in fact Trump did slightly better than he had in 2016), and a crowd of Trump supporters began trying to storm the counting facility.

Both parties are expected to train and register their election challengers, and that appeared to have been done at least for those workers who were present early in the process. Poll watchers are less subject to regulations but are also not legally allowed to interfere with the election process. I cannot comment on the training or status of the Trump supporters who tried to storm the facility.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5693 on: November 19, 2020, 12:12:16 PM »
Why do you assume that elections must have 'equal' (i.e. 50/50) representation of poll-watchers in order for them to be fair and free?  If a particular polling place could be properly observed by three Dem and three GOP poll watchers, would it become inherently 'unfair' if there were three GOP and fifty-three Dem poll watchers?  Or Six-and-zero?

The methods on how the election is conducted are what make them free and fair.  Poll watchers merely ensure that the methods are being properly followed.
Or - gasp - some people from a third party that won't do things in their favor oder even more astaunding people from no party?

I think people underestimate the occurance of errors but overestimate the amount. You would be surprised how many errors can happen even with just 50 voters, especially if they have more than one cross to do. I once was at an small inner-party election where we had to count 3 times with just 12 voters. Shit happens, especially after a 12 hour day.
But those errors generally don't add up to a lot of difference on the big scale, they cancel each other out. And in the end there is a multi-count result, it's just that after the first few hours you only have a preliminary result (Yes, we Germans manage to do that in 4-5 hours without a single machine, if it's only an easy 20 party 2 votes-per-voter election).

That does not mean that there is no fraud. But it is unlikely to go undetected on any big scale. The largest one I know of (happened actually not far away) was what would be county level in the US. The local conservative (it's always the conservativs) elected offcial used his access to the process to fake votes by people living in nursery homes. We are talking about I think ~250 votes here - mail in - and it still got detected after a few weeks.

Hard to imagine anyone to get hundreds of thousands of votes if robust procedures are followed. Because - see the math example above.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5694 on: November 19, 2020, 12:22:14 PM »
Fraud requires intent.  Errors (including ones caused by humans in clear violation of the rules) do not constitute fraud unless there was a clear intent to subvert the rules.

As with every election there are infrequent errors,  But there's no evidence of fraud that I am aware of in this election.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5695 on: November 19, 2020, 12:25:00 PM »
Here in Ohio for poll workers in the county I worked (and no reason to assume not others), the instructions are part of the expectation of being a poll worker is you are acting impartially without regard to your personal party affiliation.  If the Voting Location Manager witnesses actions that make them think you are not doing that they can dismiss you.  What happens is we are the registered ad Democrat or Republican to represent that group but NOT meaning we personally are from that group.  I am normally a Republican personally but because out county is heavy GOP I was asked to represent Democrat as a poll worker.  When we then assist someone we find someone who represents the opposite party to have two of us there.

So the point is if the poll worker is biased and cannot set that aside, then they are not qualified to be a poll worker.  You need to leave your party at the door and do the job.

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5696 on: November 19, 2020, 12:26:46 PM »
Fraud requires intent.  Errors (including ones caused by humans in clear violation of the rules) do not constitute fraud unless there was a clear intent to subvert the rules.

As with every election there are infrequent errors,  But there's no evidence of fraud that I am aware of in this election.
Which is also why the lawsuits filed and contested do not actually claim fraud and the attorneys being asked directly work hard to say they are not claiming fraud because they can be disbarred for a fraudulent suit.

geekette

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5697 on: November 19, 2020, 05:53:10 PM »
GA recount goes, as expected, for Biden, by over 12k votes.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5698 on: November 19, 2020, 06:27:24 PM »
GA recount goes, as expected, for Biden, by over 12k votes.

I never thought that winning over and over and over and over and over and over again would be this stressful.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5699 on: November 19, 2020, 07:31:25 PM »
GA recount goes, as expected, for Biden, by over 12k votes.

I never thought that winning over and over and over and over and over and over again would be this stressful.

Think how this feels for President Trump, losing over and over and over and over again.    ;-)