Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 444450 times)

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5300 on: November 05, 2020, 10:35:59 AM »
Maybe we got it wrong. The virus won't go away when the voting stops, but when the counting is done.

So Trump asking to "stop the counting" is really Trump trying to end the COVID problem.

Um, yeah, that makes sense... the virility of a pathogen will change if we ignore little pieces of paper.

The conspiracy-theorists will tie themselves in knots trying to keep their convictions going.  Remember predictions about the end-of-the-earth?  Turns out each one got the date slightly wrong... but itís still definitely coming, and soon... and hereís a new date!!

Next up: The virus will go away on Inauguration Day.  Like Magic!  And the 1,600+ people who died yesterday did so because of more testing.  If we hadnít tested, theyíd still be alive.

economista

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5301 on: November 05, 2020, 11:19:17 AM »
Queue my elder and supporting relatives moaning about the media, fake news, conspiracies, etc all designed to hurt Trump.

I keep thinking I should bring up them making fun of sad liberals after Hillary lost but I can't.
Elder mentioned term limits for Pelosi and Schumer. Sure but that applies to both sides of the aisle - right? ;)
It isn't officially over yet. Anyone seen the forecast for Hell?

Maybe this is great year to stay home over the holidays.

For multiple reasons, as it turns out that COVID-19 didn't magically disappear on Nov. 4, as promised by the current overlords.

However, my brother shared a meme on facebook yesterday that said "So is covid over now, or do we have to wait for all of the votes to be counted first"

marty998

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5302 on: November 05, 2020, 01:40:02 PM »
Queue my elder and supporting relatives moaning about the media, fake news, conspiracies, etc all designed to hurt Trump.

I keep thinking I should bring up them making fun of sad liberals after Hillary lost but I can't.
Elder mentioned term limits for Pelosi and Schumer. Sure but that applies to both sides of the aisle - right? ;)
It isn't officially over yet. Anyone seen the forecast for Hell?

Maybe this is great year to stay home over the holidays.

For multiple reasons, as it turns out that COVID-19 didn't magically disappear on Nov. 4, as promised by the current overlords.

However, my brother shared a meme on facebook yesterday that said "So is covid over now, or do we have to wait for all of the votes to be counted first"

Wouldnít surprise me if Trump and Giuliani file a lawsuit against the virus soon.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5303 on: November 06, 2020, 12:43:18 AM »
Queue my elder and supporting relatives moaning about the media, fake news, conspiracies, etc all designed to hurt Trump.

I keep thinking I should bring up them making fun of sad liberals after Hillary lost but I can't.
Elder mentioned term limits for Pelosi and Schumer. Sure but that applies to both sides of the aisle - right? ;)
It isn't officially over yet. Anyone seen the forecast for Hell?

Maybe this is great year to stay home over the holidays.

For multiple reasons, as it turns out that COVID-19 didn't magically disappear on Nov. 4, as promised by the current overlords.

However, my brother shared a meme on facebook yesterday that said "So is covid over now, or do we have to wait for all of the votes to be counted first"

Wouldnít surprise me if Trump and Giuliani file a lawsuit against the virus soon.
The fines the Chinese have to pay for the virus will be HUGE!!!

Now that I have written it I feel that this not even a bit of funny. Too realistic. Damn you Trump. Whatver else may have happened, no political joke will ever be able to trump you.

MilesTeg

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5304 on: November 06, 2020, 01:02:22 AM »
Yes don't underestimate the stupidity of Trump voters.  A good portion literally believe the coronavirus is going away after the election despite living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Back to trump outrage: He's having another tantrum on twitter as expected, tweeting "STOP THE COUNT!", "ANY VOTE THAT CAME IN AFTER ELECTION DAY WILL NOT BE COUNTED!", "STOP THE COUNT!" (he's retweeting himself), "Big legal win in Pennsylvania!", and pushing articles from briebart news. 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

I saw somewhere: #F***YouKeepCounting

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5305 on: November 06, 2020, 01:16:50 AM »
My former mil told me as she was waiting in line at a store yesterday an elderly man who was not wearing his mask properly kept motioning her to get closer in line while she kept her distance. She finally said " I don't want to get closer because of covid" and he said "don't worry it's all going to go away after the election!". This is in NC.   
This is one of the most dismaying things about the last 4 years, how readily people believe and pass on misinformation, lies and outright conspiracy theories. Unlike closed societies like china, russia, north korea, we have an open society with libraries, free press, etc. Of course it doesn't help that the head of the country himself is spreading misinformation, but that can't be an excuse.

Having a certain orange man in charge tweeting to millions and millions of devotees sure helps normalize those sorts of views. Someone standing on a soapbox in a town square shouting the same opinions would probably be ignored and derided as a loony by most people, but if that same person is in a position of power, people will listen.

Here those sorts of views are mostly confined to the fringes (who largely also seem to be devotees of said orange man).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-06/us-media-cuts-away-from-trumps-speech-citing-false-statements/12858350

It seems that even fellow Republicans are starting to be largely sick of his shit. When even the NY Post is calling him out, then the political tides really are sweeping him out to sea.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 01:24:26 AM by alsoknownasDean »

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5306 on: November 06, 2020, 03:34:48 AM »
I did some checking, and apparently John Adams--our great and revered founding father--did not attend the inauguration of his rival successor Thomas Jefferson.

Maybe we need to be a little more discerning about our republican values?

Will we also get a set of letters that Biden and Trump will write each other on their death beds talking fondly of each other's accomplishments?

Interesting you bring that up, I'm actually working on a letter to my children (Kinder and 3rd grade) explaining my Biden vote because the issues that motivate seem...not age appropriate for them now. Part of what motivates me is the thought that they might study history years from now and wonder why all their family (apart from me it seems) voted for this man, so I want to leave a record behind.

This is one hell of a difficult balance to walk.

I live in a liberal bubble. My DD (12yo) possibly hears many things from school and asks very inquisitive questions that I struggle to find good answers for.

Last week, when pumpkin curving, she quipped - "This is our Trumpkin, orange and round and should be thrown away in November!".

The week before, we went grocery shopping and there were a few trump nuts gathered outside in a public square and making speeches! She asked me very seriously - "Dad, do these people support putting kids in cages"? I mumbled something about "different opinions" and such that sounded half a**ed even to my own ears.

If you are up to it, please share any tips on how you plan to discuss this with the kids. It is bloody difficult to discuss this topic without painting half of the country as evil!

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5307 on: November 06, 2020, 03:45:26 AM »
Something something something everyone has different views and priorities.  President Trump took some very harsh measures against migrants to the USA but has many supporters who like other things he did.

Moonwaves

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5308 on: November 06, 2020, 03:55:26 AM »
It was admittedly used in relation to Brexit but since there may be some similarities in the situations, this phrase from James O'Brien (a radio talkshow presenter in the UK) could be a good one to keep in mind.
Quote
Compassion for the conned, contempt for the conmen.


MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5309 on: November 06, 2020, 05:27:40 AM »
I did some checking, and apparently John Adams--our great and revered founding father--did not attend the inauguration of his rival successor Thomas Jefferson.

Maybe we need to be a little more discerning about our republican values?

Will we also get a set of letters that Biden and Trump will write each other on their death beds talking fondly of each other's accomplishments?

Interesting you bring that up, I'm actually working on a letter to my children (Kinder and 3rd grade) explaining my Biden vote because the issues that motivate seem...not age appropriate for them now. Part of what motivates me is the thought that they might study history years from now and wonder why all their family (apart from me it seems) voted for this man, so I want to leave a record behind.

This is one hell of a difficult balance to walk.

I live in a liberal bubble. My DD (12yo) possibly hears many things from school and asks very inquisitive questions that I struggle to find good answers for.

Last week, when pumpkin curving, she quipped - "This is our Trumpkin, orange and round and should be thrown away in November!".

The week before, we went grocery shopping and there were a few trump nuts gathered outside in a public square and making speeches! She asked me very seriously - "Dad, do these people support putting kids in cages"? I mumbled something about "different opinions" and such that sounded half a**ed even to my own ears.

If you are up to it, please share any tips on how you plan to discuss this with the kids. It is bloody difficult to discuss this topic without painting half of the country as evil!

I've had both my kids (16 and 10) tell me that Biden and Trump are no different. No doubt they talk to other kids. I told them that I respect their opinion and explained that obviously no 2 people are alike. Even twins! Haha. I also asked them a series of questions about each candidate so they could realize for themselves that they are in fact not the same. I think peer pressure certainly spills over into politics. I know my oldest has friends who bash Biden constantly. Since he has ASD it's more difficult for him to distinguish fact from fiction and he wants his friends to like him. He understands where we stand as well and he does ask questions. 

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5310 on: November 06, 2020, 06:12:00 AM »
Something something something everyone has different views and priorities.  President Trump took some very harsh measures against migrants to the USA but has many supporters who like other things he did.

Many of his supporters were pretty open that Obama built the cages, what was Trump supposed to do? Not use them?

Indeed, in an early draft of my letter, the family separations is one of a few items I list as being unacceptable.

I have never once tried to bait or provoke my Trump-voting in-laws about this policy. I think ignoring it to focus on the balances in their retirement accounts is a moral failure, but I cannot point to a single concrete step I've taken to address family separations, apart from voting for Democrats.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5311 on: November 06, 2020, 06:15:37 AM »
Disappointed that not one of you brought up Trump's "news conference" on Nov. 5. It cannot be forgotten to history.

My (republican) friend's description: "It's...something. Like Baghdad Bob meets Eyore meets a 4th grader sounding out a book in class"

Losing graciously was never a strength of his.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5312 on: November 06, 2020, 06:18:18 AM »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5313 on: November 06, 2020, 06:32:22 AM »
My latest Trump/WH Outrage:

In a day when new Covid cases set an all-time high and deaths exceeded 1,600, Trump's Covid advisor Scott Atlas tweets a couple of truly misleading graphs suggesting that deaths from Covid are in sharp decline (they aren't) and added the hashtag #factsmatter for additional gaslighting.

This administration continues to deny the severity of this pandemic even as it's ramping up to an alarming degree.  Regardless of the ultimate outcome of this election Thanksgiving and the Christmas holdiays will have some truly sobering numbers of Americans who will die.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5314 on: November 06, 2020, 06:40:46 AM »
The protesters are having meltdowns towards Fox News for daring to not be the Republican Party Channel for the last couple weeks. Ironically this won't affect their bottom line that much since Carlson and Hannity are still in their own world and are extremely popular. Today Hannity was with Gingrich discussing storming the polling offices with federal agents.

A lot of Republican officials are speaking out against Trump's latest tantrum and I have a theory why. The count isn't close enough to make the case worth their support in court and with Congress hardly changing, McConnell and other winners are satisfied to move on with their own plans. So far the only big name to support him thus far that I've found is the governor of Texas.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5315 on: November 06, 2020, 06:41:39 AM »

This is one hell of a difficult balance to walk.

I live in a liberal bubble. My DD (12yo) possibly hears many things from school and asks very inquisitive questions that I struggle to find good answers for.

Last week, when pumpkin curving, she quipped - "This is our Trumpkin, orange and round and should be thrown away in November!".

The week before, we went grocery shopping and there were a few trump nuts gathered outside in a public square and making speeches! She asked me very seriously - "Dad, do these people support putting kids in cages"? I mumbled something about "different opinions" and such that sounded half a**ed even to my own ears.

If you are up to it, please share any tips on how you plan to discuss this with the kids. It is bloody difficult to discuss this topic without painting half of the country as evil!

I would start by questioning the premise that Republicans do support putting kids in cages.  Iíve seen polls where 2/3rds support separation, but nothing about cages.  And no, I donít think that is splitting hairs

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5316 on: November 06, 2020, 06:49:13 AM »
I would start by questioning the premise that Republicans do support putting kids in cages.  Iíve seen polls where 2/3rds support separation, but nothing about cages.  And no, I donít think that is splitting hairs

Agreed, not splitting hairs.

The separation policy is much worse than the cages . . . given that ICE was separating babies and toddlers unable to speak from their parents and then failing to record the names of the parents/children - to ensure that reunification is impossible.  Cages are short term discomfort that look bad in a photo.  Separating an infant from it's mother and not writing down who exactly the mother was is inexcusable.

At least the Nazis were competent enough to keep good records when they were doing evil shit.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5317 on: November 06, 2020, 06:56:07 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?


sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5318 on: November 06, 2020, 07:03:55 AM »

This is one hell of a difficult balance to walk.

I live in a liberal bubble. My DD (12yo) possibly hears many things from school and asks very inquisitive questions that I struggle to find good answers for.

Last week, when pumpkin curving, she quipped - "This is our Trumpkin, orange and round and should be thrown away in November!".

The week before, we went grocery shopping and there were a few trump nuts gathered outside in a public square and making speeches! She asked me very seriously - "Dad, do these people support putting kids in cages"? I mumbled something about "different opinions" and such that sounded half a**ed even to my own ears.

If you are up to it, please share any tips on how you plan to discuss this with the kids. It is bloody difficult to discuss this topic without painting half of the country as evil!

I would start by questioning the premise that Republicans do support putting kids in cages.  I’ve seen polls where 2/3rds support separation, but nothing about cages.  And no, I don’t think that is splitting hairs

How is that not splitting hairs? If you intentionally tear the families apart then you have to put the kids somewhere. I guess theoretically Trump could have donated space in one of his resorts to put them up in a little more comfort, but is that really that much different? Ripping weeping children out of the arms of their mothers - never to see them again - is the majority of the cruelty. "Kids in cages" is just shorthand for the whole situation.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 07:06:21 AM by sherr »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5319 on: November 06, 2020, 07:11:25 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

It's a misdemeanor, yes, similar to jaywalking or a speeding ticket. And no this was not at all necessary, as evidenced by the fact that other presidents didn't do it. The Trump administration had to react "strongly" to boarder crossings going up in Trump's first year before the midterms because Trump had made immigration his signature issue, and this is what they came up with. The intentional cruelty was the point in order to act as a deterrent. And that's not even really an opinion, Sessions basically says as much in the original "zero tolerance" memo.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5320 on: November 06, 2020, 07:11:51 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Sure.


Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The children are typically placed with the other parent or family.  Unless a court finds the parent unfit, the parent incarcerated still retains rights over things that happen to the child and must be consulted and provide consent on various issues in the child's life.  Very young children of course are typically not separated, and kept with the mother in a prison nursery.

There is never any confusion about who the child belongs to, or 'forgetting' the names of the parents who are separated from infants/toddlers because there exists no excuse beyond 'evil' for that to happen in this day and age.


As has been mentioned - no other president separated children from their parents when illegal immigration took place, as the parents are not considered a risk to the children and they would all be deported together anyway.  There's no reason to do so other than to cause the families suffering.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 07:15:28 AM by GuitarStv »

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5321 on: November 06, 2020, 07:13:28 AM »
@sherr show me the opinion poll where republicans support the permanent removal of children from their mothers.

Your confusing a shitty administration doing a shitty job/ evil act (depending on how willing you are to give the benefit of the doubt) with mainstream Republican opinion.  Iím pretty sure if the Republican base was super enthused the practice would not have ended years ago.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5322 on: November 06, 2020, 07:15:22 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Sure.


Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The children are typically placed with the other parent or family.  Unless a court finds the parent unfit, the parent incarcerated still retains rights over things that happen to the child and must be consulted and provide consent on various issues in the child's life.  Very young children of course are typically not separated, and kept with the mother in a prison nursery.

There is never any confusion about who the child belongs to, or 'forgetting' the names of the parents who are separated from infants/toddlers because there exists no excuse beyond 'evil' for that to happen in this day and age.

Okay so we are agreed then 100%

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5323 on: November 06, 2020, 07:16:44 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Sure.


Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The children are typically placed with the other parent or family.  Unless a court finds the parent unfit, the parent incarcerated still retains rights over things that happen to the child and must be consulted and provide consent on various issues in the child's life.  Very young children of course are typically not separated, and kept with the mother in a prison nursery.

There is never any confusion about who the child belongs to, or 'forgetting' the names of the parents who are separated from infants/toddlers because there exists no excuse beyond 'evil' for that to happen in this day and age.

Okay so we are agreed then 100%

Seems like you missed a paragraph in GuitarStv's post.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5324 on: November 06, 2020, 07:17:25 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Sure.


Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The children are typically placed with the other parent or family.  Unless a court finds the parent unfit, the parent incarcerated still retains rights over things that happen to the child and must be consulted and provide consent on various issues in the child's life.  Very young children of course are typically not separated, and kept with the mother in a prison nursery.

There is never any confusion about who the child belongs to, or 'forgetting' the names of the parents who are separated from infants/toddlers because there exists no excuse beyond 'evil' for that to happen in this day and age.

Okay so we are agreed then 100%

So you agree that the separation policy enforced for illegal immigrants was both cruel and unusual (in that it regularly separated infants from their families and often failed to do the required paperwork to re-unite children with their families)?

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5325 on: November 06, 2020, 07:18:10 AM »
@bbqbonelesswing elaborate please

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5326 on: November 06, 2020, 07:19:50 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5327 on: November 06, 2020, 07:21:00 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

Then why does the US penal system not remove infants from their families?  Why do prison nurseries exist?

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5328 on: November 06, 2020, 07:21:05 AM »
@bbqbonelesswing elaborate please

You did not include his last paragraph when quoting... see above.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5329 on: November 06, 2020, 07:22:00 AM »
@bbqbonelesswing elaborate please

You did not include his last paragraph when quoting... see above.

I edited my post adding that paragraph as Montecarlo was posting his response.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5330 on: November 06, 2020, 07:29:33 AM »
@sherr show me the opinion poll where republicans support the permanent removal of children from their mothers.

Your confusing a shitty administration doing a shitty job/ evil act (depending on how willing you are to give the benefit of the doubt) with mainstream Republican opinion.  Iím pretty sure if the Republican base was super enthused the practice would not have ended years ago.



Almost 70M people voted for Trump.  Enough with the fucking bullshit, you can't continue to claim you don't support these evil shitty policies as you're actively voting for them.  Trump is a fucking monster, and anyone that supports him is a fucking monster. 

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5331 on: November 06, 2020, 07:30:31 AM »
@bbqbonelesswing elaborate please

You did not include his last paragraph when quoting... see above.

I edited my post adding that paragraph as Montecarlo was posting his response.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, carry on :)

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5332 on: November 06, 2020, 07:34:27 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?
Apart from the unconscionable cruelty of separating these children, I don't often see people pointing out the sheer stupidity of it.  Those separated children whose parents cannot be found are now, de facto, permanent immigrants to the USA, precisely the opposite effect of what the Trump administration said it wanted.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5333 on: November 06, 2020, 07:38:23 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

Lol, I am a foster parent and I can tell you first hand that there is zero possible way that the foster system could absorb a sudden and continuous influx of thousands of kids. And you're still missing something very vital: THE CRUELTY WAS THE POINT!

It was INTENTIONAL. They wanted this to act as a deterrent. There's a 2017 interview with John Kelly where he's saying that he's thinking about separating families as a deterrent in order to "keep people off this awful/dangerous network". Not keeping records is not "incompetence", it is intentional. The conditionals in the detention centers are not "incompetence", they are intentional. Unnecessarily tearing families apart solely to use the suffering of their children as a deterrent to others is cruel and unusual.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 07:46:09 AM by sherr »

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5334 on: November 06, 2020, 07:49:39 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

Then why does the US penal system not remove infants from their families?  Why do prison nurseries exist?

I donít have an issue per se with prison nurseries and I certainly donít advocate separating children of any age from their parents when the sole crime committed is an illegal border crossing.  I was just demonstrating that itís (itís = separation as a concept, not the inhumane way it was implemented) not wholly inconsistent with how we treat domestic criminals.

My personal view is that we imprison people way too much as it is

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5335 on: November 06, 2020, 07:51:41 AM »
@sherr show me the opinion poll where republicans support the permanent removal of children from their mothers.

Your confusing a shitty administration doing a shitty job/ evil act (depending on how willing you are to give the benefit of the doubt) with mainstream Republican opinion.  Iím pretty sure if the Republican base was super enthused the practice would not have ended years ago.



Almost 70M people voted for Trump.  Enough with the fucking bullshit, you can't continue to claim you don't support these evil shitty policies as you're actively voting for them.  Trump is a fucking monster, and anyone that supports him is a fucking monster.

Hold on there turbo.  First, watch your pronouns.  I voted for Jorgensen, so now ďyouĒ and ďyouíreĒ there.

Second, if you really believe that 70 million Americans are evil monsters, I have an Office of War Information poster for you...

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5336 on: November 06, 2020, 07:52:51 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The vast majority of these cases are asylum seekers, doing things the way prescribed by law. Some others have committed the civil offense of unauthorized border crossing. Very few have been charged with a crime. That is why the previous policy was to give a court date and release them, giving them a temporary legal status.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5337 on: November 06, 2020, 07:54:41 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

Lol, I am a foster parent and I can tell you first hand that there is zero possible way that the foster system could absorb a sudden and continuous influx of thousands of kids. And you're still missing something very vital: THE CRUELTY WAS THE POINT!

It was INTENTIONAL. They wanted this to act as a deterrent. There's a 2017 interview with John Kelly where he's saying that he's thinking about separating families as a deterrent in order to "keep people off this awful/dangerous network". Not keeping records is not "incompetence", it is intentional. The conditionals in the detention centers are not "incompetence", they are intentional. Unnecessarily tearing families apart solely to use the suffering of their children as a deterrent to others is cruel and unusual.

You donít happen to be a Washington state Jehovahís Witness, do you?  Perhaps you took care for me for a spell.

Again, I am not advocating for that at all.  Iím simply saying if you start with the premise these parents committed a crime, child separation is not a crazy leap to make.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5338 on: November 06, 2020, 07:58:38 AM »
@GuitarStv yes, with the caveat that I think removal of children, in and of itself, presumably it is done right (placing with a competent and not overworked foster family) is nothing cruel and unusual.  The way the administration did it is evil, imo

Lol, I am a foster parent and I can tell you first hand that there is zero possible way that the foster system could absorb a sudden and continuous influx of thousands of kids. And you're still missing something very vital: THE CRUELTY WAS THE POINT!

It was INTENTIONAL. They wanted this to act as a deterrent. There's a 2017 interview with John Kelly where he's saying that he's thinking about separating families as a deterrent in order to "keep people off this awful/dangerous network". Not keeping records is not "incompetence", it is intentional. The conditionals in the detention centers are not "incompetence", they are intentional. Unnecessarily tearing families apart solely to use the suffering of their children as a deterrent to others is cruel and unusual.

You donít happen to be a Washington state Jehovahís Witness, do you?  Perhaps you took care for me for a spell.

Again, I am not advocating for that at all.  Iím simply saying if you start with the premise these parents committed a crime, child separation is not a crazy leap to make.

Except they committed a civil offense, not a crime...

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5339 on: November 06, 2020, 07:58:51 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

The vast majority of these cases are asylum seekers, doing things the way prescribed by law. Some others have committed the civil offense of unauthorized border crossing. Very few have been charged with a crime. That is why the previous policy was to give a court date and release them, giving them a temporary legal status.

Separating children from asylum seekers who show up legally at the border?  That is something I did not know.   

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5340 on: November 06, 2020, 08:00:43 AM »
@ixtap i think the poster above was right, itís a misdemeanor crime, not a civil offense

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5341 on: November 06, 2020, 08:01:26 AM »
I donít have an issue per se with prison nurseries and I certainly donít advocate separating children of any age from their parents when the sole crime committed is an illegal border crossing.  I was just demonstrating that itís (itís = separation as a concept, not the inhumane way it was implemented) not wholly inconsistent with how we treat domestic criminals.

My personal view is that we imprison people way too much as it is

You have now backpedaled so far that your point is unintelligible. So you don't support the (intentional) cruelty of the Trump admin separation policy. And you don't support separating children being separated from their parents when the sole crime is misdemeanor boarder crossing.

But you don't think that separating children from their parents when the sole crime being committed is misdemeanor boarder crossing is "cruel and unusual"? And you don't think the 2/3ds of Republicans who said they were supporting the child separation policy were talking about the actual thing that was happening, but instead some alternate-reality version where all of the specifics were different?

Okaaaay...

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5342 on: November 06, 2020, 08:01:48 AM »
Again, I am not advocating for that at all.  Iím simply saying if you start with the premise these parents committed a crime, child separation is not a crazy leap to make.

Trespassing is a crime as well. Not ironically a misdemeanor much like illegal border crossing. I sure hope taking my kids away would be an outlandish and crazy leap for committing a low level crime. We should be a better country than this.   

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5343 on: November 06, 2020, 08:02:28 AM »
Question: does an illegal border crossing constitute a crime, per the us penal code?

Follow up question: what normally happens to children when their parents are jailed and charged with a crime?

Seeking asylum is completely lawful.

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5344 on: November 06, 2020, 08:02:50 AM »
I donít have an issue per se with prison nurseries and I certainly donít advocate separating children of any age from their parents when the sole crime committed is an illegal border crossing.  I was just demonstrating that itís (itís = separation as a concept, not the inhumane way it was implemented) not wholly inconsistent with how we treat domestic criminals.

My personal view is that we imprison people way too much as it is

You have now backpedaled so far that your point is unintelligible. So you don't support the (intentional) cruelty of the Trump admin separation policy. And you don't support separating children being separated from their parents when the sole crime is misdemeanor boarder crossing.

But you don't think that separating children from their parents when the sole crime being committed is misdemeanor boarder crossing is "cruel and unusual"? And you don't think the 2/3ds of Republicans who said they were supporting the child separation policy were talking about the actual thing that was happening, but instead some alternate-reality version where all of the specifics were different?

Okaaaay...

Actually that about sums it up!

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5345 on: November 06, 2020, 08:05:52 AM »
@sherr show me the opinion poll where republicans support the permanent removal of children from their mothers.

Your confusing a shitty administration doing a shitty job/ evil act (depending on how willing you are to give the benefit of the doubt) with mainstream Republican opinion.  Iím pretty sure if the Republican base was super enthused the practice would not have ended years ago.



Almost 70M people voted for Trump.  Enough with the fucking bullshit, you can't continue to claim you don't support these evil shitty policies as you're actively voting for them.  Trump is a fucking monster, and anyone that supports him is a fucking monster.

Hold on there turbo.  First, watch your pronouns.  I voted for Jorgensen, so now ďyouĒ and ďyouíreĒ there.

Second, if you really believe that 70 million Americans are evil monsters, I have an Office of War Information poster for you...

First of all, quite obviously the "you" and "you're" was directed at Trump voters.  Second of all, fuck Trump voters.  I'm sick of pretending this is a normal reasonable disagreement where we can simply agree to disagree.  Trump is a fucking monster and is absolutely indefensible. 


Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5346 on: November 06, 2020, 08:09:14 AM »
ďAs you may know, some families seeking asylum from their home country cross the U.S. border illegally and then request asylum. In an attempt to discourage this, the Trump administration has been prosecuting the parents immediately, which means separating parents from their children. Do you support or oppose this policy?Ē

This is how one of the questions was phrased.  Maybe I am naive, but I assume people are answering the question asked, and I am not assuming they just watched a 60 Minutes special on the subject.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5347 on: November 06, 2020, 08:14:14 AM »
I donít have an issue per se with prison nurseries and I certainly donít advocate separating children of any age from their parents when the sole crime committed is an illegal border crossing.  I was just demonstrating that itís (itís = separation as a concept, not the inhumane way it was implemented) not wholly inconsistent with how we treat domestic criminals.

My personal view is that we imprison people way too much as it is

You have now backpedaled so far that your point is unintelligible. So you don't support the (intentional) cruelty of the Trump admin separation policy. And you don't support separating children being separated from their parents when the sole crime is misdemeanor boarder crossing.

But you don't think that separating children from their parents when the sole crime being committed is misdemeanor boarder crossing is "cruel and unusual"? And you don't think the 2/3ds of Republicans who said they were supporting the child separation policy were talking about the actual thing that was happening, but instead some alternate-reality version where all of the specifics were different?

Okaaaay...

I'm also a little confused.

We were talking about child separation at the border.  This was happening with infants, without record keeping, and for a misdemeanor.  That's what 2/3rds of Republicans indicated support for.

Are you agreeing that 2/3rds of Republicans are supporting a bad policy that you don't believe is fair?

Montecarlo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5348 on: November 06, 2020, 08:21:45 AM »
Aside from ďbackpedalingĒ and ďunintelligibleĒ I think @sherr summed up my position nicely.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #5349 on: November 06, 2020, 08:27:44 AM »
Aside from ďbackpedalingĒ and ďunintelligibleĒ I think @sherr summed up my position nicely.

Would you agree that Trump's separation policy (that 2/3rds of Republican support) is significantly worse than just putting kids in cages?