Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 357562 times)

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4950 on: October 23, 2020, 06:31:10 AM »
When you're a star, they let you do it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4951 on: October 23, 2020, 07:12:51 AM »
Here's an outrage from last night I'm not seeing mentioned: as Trump was walking off the stage with Melania she took her hand out of his, needing a bit of effort to do it, and Trump retaliated by pushing her in the back.

If he does that in front of millions of TV watchers what does he do in private?

I have trouble feeling too bad for Melania.  The marriage was a financial transaction.  There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4952 on: October 23, 2020, 07:17:25 AM »
Here's an outrage from last night I'm not seeing mentioned: as Trump was walking off the stage with Melania she took her hand out of his, needing a bit of effort to do it, and Trump retaliated by pushing her in the back.

If he does that in front of millions of TV watchers what does he do in private?

In the opening months of his presidency, Melania delayed moving into the White House with their son.  Reportedly, she used that as leverage to re-negotiate her prenuptial contract to a considerable degree.

Melania has made a habit out of publicly pushing away her husband in subtle ways, from pushing his hand away to refusing to be at his side when decorum requires it.  I won't pretend to know Melania's motivations and Donald's infidelity and sexual assaults are well documented. My point is - this behavior between them is enigmatic, but certainly nothing new.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4953 on: October 23, 2020, 07:40:09 AM »
The entire debate I kept waiting for Biden to react to Trump like this:



I was slightly disappointed that he didn't.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4954 on: October 23, 2020, 08:11:42 AM »
Absolutely. Delivered just right (calmly) it could be devastating to Trump for a little while. Might push Trump to lose control of himself. I wouldn't mind a little coarse language from Biden aimed at Trump.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4955 on: October 23, 2020, 08:24:11 AM »
Here's an outrage from last night I'm not seeing mentioned: as Trump was walking off the stage with Melania she took her hand out of his, needing a bit of effort to do it, and Trump retaliated by pushing her in the back.

If he does that in front of millions of TV watchers what does he do in private?
I can't say I understand their marriage nor at this point so I care. It's obvious she's doing this of her own free will, so whatever.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4956 on: October 23, 2020, 08:33:21 AM »
Absolutely. Delivered just right (calmly) it could be devastating to Trump for a little while. Might push Trump to lose control of himself. I wouldn't mind a little coarse language from Biden aimed at Trump.

I think Biden handled it well.  Remember, he doesn't need to convince his supporters that what Trump says is a garbage-disposal of randomly mashed up lies. Those voters aren't likely to jump onto the Trump Train.  But Biden does want to push those voters who are hesitant to support any Democrat (i.e. identity-Republicans) but who have been uncomfortable about Trump's conduct from day-1.  To these people, harshly calling out a sitting President is seen as disrespectful of the office itself.  Yelling at Trump would make Biden no better than the president. Wallowing in Trump's muck just turns them off entirely.

There's some evidence that some of these voters were off-put by hearing Biden say "will you shut up man!" in the first debate (again, because it's seen as disrespectful). Biden did as good a job as I think he could have calling out Trump's falsehoods and empathizing with regular families while not crossing the line into being disrespectful and foul-mouthed.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4957 on: October 23, 2020, 08:36:05 AM »
Indeed people seem to hope that Trump family members will suddenly "get it".

They get that having their patriarch win power and wealth is in their best interests, as long as he can keep that power to protect them from sanction for their own corrupt business ventures.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4958 on: October 23, 2020, 09:08:45 AM »
Indeed people seem to hope that Trump family members will suddenly "get it".

They get that having their patriarch win power and wealth is in their best interests, as long as he can keep that power to protect them from sanction for their own corrupt business ventures.
I'm sure that Trump's family members, including his wives, have made their own calculations on the value of the relationship.  But an advert showing that push at Melania would surely put paid to any chance of Trump getting back the votes of those "suburban housewives" he needs.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4959 on: October 23, 2020, 09:22:35 AM »
The entire debate I kept waiting for Biden to react to Trump like this:



I was slightly disappointed that he didn't.
Also applicable:

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4960 on: October 23, 2020, 10:50:22 AM »
The debate, for me personally, brought in to focus that we have a President that can say anything he wants ("I was the best thing that ever happened to the Black community, probably even better than Lincoln", "I pre-paid my taxes", "everyone is going to get Regeneron for free") vs. a man running on his integrity.  It's like having a step Dad that tells you that eating fast food and candy all day is just fine vs. a caring father that forces you to eat a balanced diet with vegetables.   It really is a mess, especially when the neighbors dislike your family and are willing to meddle in your affairs on your step-Dad's behalf.  And your step-Dad has a TV channel that tells you how great he is and how terrible eating vegetables would be...  I could go on and on.

I'm hoping that Americans have had enough of the candy-eating lifestyle (which has now made them sicker than they otherwise should be) and are willing to consider the latter for a more  sustainable, healthy future.  I have to hope that the majority of Americans are smart enough to see through Trump's façade of false promises and outright lies, as well as the unsustainable gains from removing environmental standards and industry regulations, jacking up the national debt with tax cuts, backing out of agreements with allies and starting tariff wars... 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4961 on: October 23, 2020, 11:00:54 AM »
I voted as early as I could (which was very easy in my state). At this point living with Trump and his cohort just feels like falling down stairs and wondering if I'll stop at the next landing on Nov 3, or just keep rolling and wondering where the bottom is. I have not watched any of the debates. They will not change my opinion on much at this point and if it was important enough to change my mind, it would surface in all of the other news I digest anyways. 

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4962 on: October 23, 2020, 11:02:24 AM »
I want to at least vote intelligently for my local races, which is part of why I'm procrastinating.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4963 on: October 23, 2020, 11:19:49 AM »
I want to at least vote intelligently for my local races, which is part of why I'm procrastinating.
Local races are soooo important. I spent a lot of time reading and researching as I cast those votes.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4964 on: October 23, 2020, 11:20:39 AM »
I want to at least vote intelligently for my local races, which is part of why I'm procrastinating.
Local races are soooo important. I spent a lot of time reading and researching as I cast those votes.

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nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4965 on: October 23, 2020, 11:41:56 AM »
I want to at least vote intelligently for my local races, which is part of why I'm procrastinating.
Local races are soooo important. I spent a lot of time reading and researching as I cast those votes.

I was a bit dissapointed at our local elections (as in county/city level).  Two of the positions the candidate was running un-opposed, and the third pitted a bat-s&*t crazy against a retired school-teacher centrist who's main/only plank was a bond measure for our local HS.  There was nothing for me to even consider.

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4966 on: October 23, 2020, 11:57:37 AM »
I want to at least vote intelligently for my local races, which is part of why I'm procrastinating.
Local races are soooo important. I spent a lot of time reading and researching as I cast those votes.

I was a bit dissapointed at our local elections (as in county/city level).  Two of the positions the candidate was running un-opposed, and the third pitted a bat-s&*t crazy against a retired school-teacher centrist who's main/only plank was a bond measure for our local HS.  There was nothing for me to even consider.
Election schedules vary - a lot of our local offices here wound up decided in the August primary. Some items wound up proceeding to be on the general election ballot, but in other cases, they won by a wide enough margin August to win.

We had one race on the November ballot though - a seat on the soil and water board - where neither candidate so much as created a Facebook page for their campaign. Went with "not a real estate developer" on that one.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4967 on: October 24, 2020, 03:54:09 AM »
We had one race on the November ballot though - a seat on the soil and water board - where neither candidate so much as created a Facebook page for their campaign. Went with "not a real estate developer" on that one.
Maybe they just didn't want their voters personal data sold all over the US?

Ah, I know that is wrong, but would be nice if it were actually true.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4968 on: October 24, 2020, 03:09:50 PM »
The local election was pretty easy I had a voter guide to use. It actually (for those affiliated ) a straight ticket except for voting out one commisoner.

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4969 on: October 24, 2020, 07:38:13 PM »
We had one race on the November ballot though - a seat on the soil and water board - where neither candidate so much as created a Facebook page for their campaign. Went with "not a real estate developer" on that one.
Maybe they just didn't want their voters personal data sold all over the US?

Ah, I know that is wrong, but would be nice if it were actually true.
I'm saying these 2 candidates ran for office you did nothing but get their names on the ballot. Didn't throw up a $5 website, no social media, no flyers. Haven't seen any kind of interviews from either one. Nothing. So you're left with "ask around - someone you know knows one of these candidates" and what little generic information you might find on the internet.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4970 on: October 25, 2020, 03:27:48 AM »
Jared and Ivanka have threatened to sue for libel over two billboards in Times Square.  The reply to their threats has a lovely ending, essentially saying that their reputations are now so tarnished they have no defence and using the case of a notorious New York mob boss as evidence.  Nice one.

https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1320150701947846656/photo/1

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4971 on: October 25, 2020, 06:30:58 AM »
Jared and Ivanka have threatened to sue for libel over two billboards in Times Square.  The reply to their threats has a lovely ending, essentially saying that their reputations are now so tarnished they have no defence and using the case of a notorious New York mob boss as evidence.  Nice one.

https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1320150701947846656/photo/1

That response is a thing of beauty. I would love to see those smug, spoiled children face consequences for their actions for once in their lives.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4972 on: October 25, 2020, 07:20:03 AM »
Jared and Ivanka have threatened to sue for libel over two billboards in Times Square.  The reply to their threats has a lovely ending, essentially saying that their reputations are now so tarnished they have no defence and using the case of a notorious New York mob boss as evidence.  Nice one.

https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1320150701947846656/photo/1

That response is a thing of beauty. I would love to see those smug, spoiled children face consequences for their actions for once in their lives.

Ahh yes "Nuts!" A reply made famous when the Germans asked for American surrender at the Battle of the Bulge in 1944. Have to appreciate the irony. 


partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4974 on: October 25, 2020, 09:40:34 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4975 on: October 25, 2020, 10:31:11 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4976 on: October 25, 2020, 10:35:33 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 10:37:55 AM by partgypsy »

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4977 on: October 25, 2020, 11:01:08 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4978 on: October 25, 2020, 06:09:00 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

It is. His position since day 1 has been to vilify the entire civil servant class. The advisor mentioned in the article was hired a couple years ago and has been instituting political loyalty tests as part of the hiring process in certain positions, going right around those cabinet secretaries and making their hiring decisions for them.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4979 on: October 25, 2020, 07:11:03 PM »
There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.
That's impressively racist and misogynist.

As for Drumpf's outrage of the day - he's helped Israel get peace with a third country now, Sudan, joining UAE and Bahrain. UAE is now building a synagogue, along with a mosque and a church.

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4980 on: October 25, 2020, 07:56:43 PM »

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.

Assassinating a senior officer in the Iranian government doesn't count?

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4981 on: October 25, 2020, 08:06:29 PM »
There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.
That's impressively racist and misogynist.

As for Drumpf's outrage of the day - he's helped Israel get peace with a third country now, Sudan, joining UAE and Bahrain. UAE is now building a synagogue, along with a mosque and a church.

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.

Clinton didn't have any wars in his first term either.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4982 on: October 25, 2020, 08:25:36 PM »
I’m not sure bringing us to the brink of war that didn’t happen because the other side was less crazy and incompetent than Trump really counts...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4983 on: October 25, 2020, 10:36:26 PM »
There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.
That's impressively racist and misogynist.

As for Drumpf's outrage of the day - he's helped Israel get peace with a third country now, Sudan, joining UAE and Bahrain. UAE is now building a synagogue, along with a mosque and a church.

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.
Can I just point out that UAE, Bahrain and Sudan have never been to actual war with Israel?  Which means that this is not "bringing peace".  It's just bringing "diplomatic relations".  Which is OK, but not doing anything to solve the main issue which is the poor bloody Palestinians, who are either refugees or living in Israel's apartheid bantustans.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4984 on: October 26, 2020, 04:15:37 AM »
I’m not sure bringing us to the brink of war that didn’t happen because the other side was less crazy and incompetent than Trump really counts...

It is an innovative solution for diplomacy: be so crazy that the other side has to be the sober one.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4985 on: October 26, 2020, 05:05:06 AM »
There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.
That's impressively racist and misogynist.

As for Drumpf's outrage of the day - he's helped Israel get peace with a third country now, Sudan, joining UAE and Bahrain. UAE is now building a synagogue, along with a mosque and a church.

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.
Can I just point out that UAE, Bahrain and Sudan have never been to actual war with Israel?  Which means that this is not "bringing peace".  It's just bringing "diplomatic relations".  Which is OK, but not doing anything to solve the main issue which is the poor bloody Palestinians, who are either refugees or living in Israel's apartheid bantustans.
Actually Sudan and Israel were officially at war. But afaik no one ever shot. That was likely just a pressure declaration towards the military who indeed couped.

Anyway, the point I admit is that Trump is not blinded by the usual politics. He has his own blinders and stereotypes, but he would never say "We don't talk to Sudan, they helped Osama bin Baden 15 years ago!" just because some military or CIA guy says it. 

Quote
It is an innovative solution for diplomacy: be so crazy that the other side has to be the sober one.
Nah, that's old stuff. Remember Stalin's "hit shoe on the table" thing?
That was planned crazyness. Worked quite well.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4986 on: October 26, 2020, 05:52:09 AM »
He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.
Technically only Congress can authorize war with another country and that hasn't happened since WWII. Yes I know Presidents tend to subvert that process these days. But what exactly do you consider war? Under Trump the US has dropped over 20,000 bombs on Afghanistan his first 3 years in office. Roughly 15,000 more than Obama in his last 3 years. 14,000 more troops were deployed to the Middle East including to a new base in Saudia Arabia. He ordered the assassination of an Iranian military commander, backed a coup in Libya and backed several failed ones (Venezuela ring a bell). Then of course there was Trump boasting about wanting to kill every man, woman and child linked to ISIS. Yep entire families. He gave the green light and they did exactly that in Mosul.

Quote
....an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.
I assume you are speaking for yourself and not actual other countries. Trump has not advanced our standing in the world on foreign policy one single bit. He has continued inflicting mass casualties, murdered people, and threatened other countries at will. Dictators are not seen as beacons of hope. He can't even take care of his own people. But hey if you think "he's fucking awesome" well that's your opinion dude.     
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:35:42 AM by MasterStache »

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4987 on: October 26, 2020, 05:59:54 AM »
As for the rest of the world, we have abandoned our allies, such as walking away from the paris accord, which is just as much as a threat as any war if you speak about human toll  and cost, and in more plain fashion (Kurds in Syria). And like I mentioned in another thread, Obama has gotten a lot of (possibly deserved) flack for drone strikes. Trump has drastically increased drone strikes (has had done close to double what Obama did in 8 years) plus has struck down ruling that civilian deaths from drones must be reported. I guess another one if those annoying unnecessary bureacratic rules to him. I'm glad that we are not in a war. But I don't see his foreign policy/approach/whim as a "win". Not for the US. Not for our allies.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 06:08:28 AM by partgypsy »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4989 on: October 26, 2020, 06:23:53 AM »
There's a reason that Trump buys his wives from Eastern Europe - it's so he can exert more control over them.
That's impressively racist and misogynist.

As for Drumpf's outrage of the day - he's helped Israel get peace with a third country now, Sudan, joining UAE and Bahrain. UAE is now building a synagogue, along with a mosque and a church.

Note: this isn't a cold peace of tolerance like that between Israel and Egypt, it's full diplomatic relations, trade and tourism, etc.

He's also the first President since Carter to not start a war with another country. I guess he still has a couple of months and could do it, but he'd have to work hard.

He's been a complete disaster with covid, and his incompetence may ultimately cost half a million American lives. But for the rest of the world, an American President who organises peace between Israel and her neighbours, and who doesn't start a war - that's fucking awesome.

Have you looked into the details of the proposed (and I say proposed because it isn't final, despite what Trump says) deal with Sudan? Or the UAE deal? Not exactly impressive or ideal terms. Give me a call when Trump signs an Israel/Iran deal, and I'll be wowed.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4990 on: October 26, 2020, 06:28:45 AM »


Quote
It is an innovative solution for diplomacy: be so crazy that the other side has to be the sober one.
Nah, that's old stuff. Remember Stalin's "hit shoe on the table" thing?
That was planned crazyness. Worked quite well.

That was Khrushchev.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4991 on: October 26, 2020, 06:49:40 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4992 on: October 26, 2020, 06:58:00 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?

A reading of the article suggests that it’s intended a political loyalty test. As a patriot and decidedly not a libertarian (at least not in the modern US sense of the term), I find this concerning because it suggests that we could lose a lot of good, experienced workers who are loyal to country over party.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4993 on: October 26, 2020, 07:12:15 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?
Here's an article about the size of the civil service in the UK over time, demonstrating it can go down

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/19/how-the-uk-civil-service-has-changed-in-10-charts

Here's one relating to more recent times.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/civil-service-staff-numbers

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4994 on: October 26, 2020, 07:21:21 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?

A reading of the article suggests that it’s intended a political loyalty test. As a patriot and decidedly not a libertarian (at least not in the modern US sense of the term), I find this concerning because it suggests that we could lose a lot of good, experienced workers who are loyal to country over party.

Trump's administration has broken records for turnover from all levels of the federal workforce.  Good experienced workers have been leaving since day 1.

And the loyalty tests have been going on for months.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/15/trump-appointees-loyalty-interviews-364616

https://www.axios.com/john-mcentee-white-house-trump-a799d519-aa2f-4e3d-b081-601f8193d75d.html

Be sure to read to the bottom of the Axios article. The pre-interview questionnaire asks a series of questions that could be boiled down to "How much do you love Trump, and have you been properly indoctrinated?"

nessness

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4995 on: October 26, 2020, 08:47:32 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?
Well, first you'd have to demonstrate that the administrative state really is growing with time. Looking at the OPM statistics, the number of Federal civilian employees (excluding DOD civilians, whose number fluctuates heavily based on whether we're at war) has increased from 1.2 million in 1978 to 1.3 million in 2020, so a much much slower rate than population growth. And it's not a straight upward trajectory - there have been some decreases in there.

ETA: here's the link:
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/executive-branch-civilian-employment-since-1940/
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:50:46 AM by nessness »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4996 on: October 26, 2020, 10:06:25 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-federal-civil-service/2020/10/23/02fbf05c-1549-11eb-ba42-ec6a580836ed_story.html

that is, not good. As if all the appointees he gets through the executive office are not enough, he wants to control who is hired and fired in sensitive positions such as CIA, FBI, DOJ.

Well, we know that Dr. Fauci will be on the short list for firing.
I'm actually glad he announced this before election day. Hopefully all federal employees will realize that career federal positions should not be a gift (or punishment/threat of firing) due to political affiliation, and vote him out en mass.

I’m sure it’s part of his “drain the swamp” bullshit. I hope it blows up in his face.

I mistrust Trump enough that I started this thread, and--working in economics--I know that my friends who work for the CBO or the President's CEA would be hurt by this.

But I imagine there's a legitimate libertarian argument that this is a good thing. Basically that creating a class of non-partisan civil servants makes it impossible for a conservative administration to undo the growth of the administrative state that seems to happen over time. Is someone on this site able to flesh this out?
Well, first you'd have to demonstrate that the administrative state really is growing with time. Looking at the OPM statistics, the number of Federal civilian employees (excluding DOD civilians, whose number fluctuates heavily based on whether we're at war) has increased from 1.2 million in 1978 to 1.3 million in 2020, so a much much slower rate than population growth. And it's not a straight upward trajectory - there have been some decreases in there.

ETA: here's the link:
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/historical-tables/executive-branch-civilian-employment-since-1940/

Shh... don't let facts ruin a perfectly good political platform.

Feivel2000

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4997 on: October 26, 2020, 11:52:10 AM »
Interesting, I put this data into a graph.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4998 on: October 26, 2020, 11:52:28 AM »
How strange that the relentless increase of the state slowed so spectacularly during the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnel?!?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4999 on: October 26, 2020, 12:10:31 PM »
How strange that the relentless increase of the state slowed so spectacularly during the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnel?!?
From the graph and data above, it's hard for me to see any slowdown during Reagan, Gingrich or McConnell.  In fact, at first glance it appears that the size of the civil service has been more-or-less the same relative to the overall population since WWII.