Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 681108 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4200 on: September 18, 2020, 03:30:51 PM »
It is more likely a comfortable ignorance rather than outright stupidity. Trump offers simple solutions and a respite from having to confront issues as nuanced or having reasons and outcomes that people don't want to think about.

It explains why he is so popular with a subset of people who don’t have to worry about racial issues and adhere to a very literal and simplistic religious worldview. They want to be spoon-fed information that repeatedly soothes them and tells them that they are superior and can do no wrong (or if they do, their god and political party will make it all better for them).

So they want to be children?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4201 on: September 18, 2020, 04:33:33 PM »
To be fair, I’d like to be a child again...

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4202 on: September 18, 2020, 05:25:57 PM »
To be fair, I’d like to be a child again...

Why?

Good question. You couldn’t pay me enough to go back to childhood.

v8rx7guy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4203 on: September 18, 2020, 05:43:06 PM »
Edit: NM new thread already dedicated to subject.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4204 on: September 18, 2020, 06:18:31 PM »
To be fair, I’d like to be a child again...

Why?

Good question. You couldn’t pay me enough to go back to childhood.

Or be a teenager again.  Although I'd like to have my 20 year old body back, the one with knees that didn't hurt.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4205 on: September 18, 2020, 06:35:57 PM »
Edit: NM new thread already dedicated to subject.

Is that THE subject of the evening?

v8rx7guy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4206 on: September 18, 2020, 06:41:14 PM »
Edit: NM new thread already dedicated to subject.

Is that THE subject of the evening?

Yes... because I predict much outrage ahead, just to add to all the other shit going on.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4207 on: September 19, 2020, 07:16:40 AM »
Apparently Trump thinks Canada wants to reopen the border. I'm sure he would like to see it open so things look like they are going back to normal during his election campaign, but I would guess the general Canadian reaction is a mix of "in your dreams" and "what have you been smoking?".  The border is partially open, for commerce and health workers, and that is enough.

Canadians have been downright nasty at times to vehicles with American license plates.  Basically the kind of tourist we would like to see won't be here, because that kind of person is sensibly staying home.  The ones who are travelling are likely to be the ones who are poo-pooing concerns, and they are more likely to be carriers.


Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4208 on: September 19, 2020, 10:13:53 AM »
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, dead only hours, body barely cold, McConnell and Trump are already plotting and planning who will fill her seat. These ghouls can't show any respect for this exceptional woman who was an icon. Such hypocrisy when Obama wanted to fill a seat at the end of his presidency and McConnell flatly refused to even consider it. Now the same situation has arisen and according to McConnell, the seat MUST be filled.

Why is there no clear ruling on this? Why isn't there a law enacted that would prevent this? This is a stupid situation. Either it is allowed with any sitting president or it is not allowed within a certain amount of days of an election. So, McConnell can just do anything that pleases him and the GOP? He dreams up rules as he goes along.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4209 on: September 19, 2020, 10:23:08 AM »
There is a rule, if you have the majority, you can do what you like.

The side effect is that if you too it too much, then you'll lose the majority. This is in no way surprising at all.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4210 on: September 19, 2020, 02:12:12 PM »
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, dead only hours, body barely cold, McConnell and Trump are already plotting and planning who will fill her seat. These ghouls can't show any respect for this exceptional woman who was an icon. Such hypocrisy when Obama wanted to fill a seat at the end of his presidency and McConnell flatly refused to even consider it. Now the same situation has arisen and according to McConnell, the seat MUST be filled.

Why is there no clear ruling on this? Why isn't there a law enacted that would prevent this? This is a stupid situation. Either it is allowed with any sitting president or it is not allowed within a certain amount of days of an election. So, McConnell can just do anything that pleases him and the GOP? He dreams up rules as he goes along.

Obama tried to fill an appointment with just under 1/4 of his term as president left.  It wasn't 'at the end of his presidency'.

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4211 on: September 19, 2020, 04:10:17 PM »
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, dead only hours, body barely cold, McConnell and Trump are already plotting and planning who will fill her seat. These ghouls can't show any respect for this exceptional woman who was an icon. Such hypocrisy when Obama wanted to fill a seat at the end of his presidency and McConnell flatly refused to even consider it. Now the same situation has arisen and according to McConnell, the seat MUST be filled.

Why is there no clear ruling on this? Why isn't there a law enacted that would prevent this? This is a stupid situation. Either it is allowed with any sitting president or it is not allowed within a certain amount of days of an election. So, McConnell can just do anything that pleases him and the GOP? He dreams up rules as he goes along.

While I think court packing is an appropriate threat, I just don't see court packing happening. I don't see Joe Biden backing it.

Here are the possibilities as I see them assuming GOP lose Executive and Legislative branches:

1. RBG is replaced by basically a lame duck GOP (even if they do this as fast as possible, they would be appointing a justice basically on election day). Dems loosely threaten court packing and in exchange GOP give Clarence Thomas the nod to retire. Dems also follow this up with a Justice Term limit legislation. (30% chance)

2. GOP hardballs. Dems decide to pack court with 4+ more justices. (10% chance)

3. Dems win, but still shrug and say "well, can't do anything now" (60% chance)

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4212 on: September 19, 2020, 04:23:44 PM »
How do the Dems pack the court? How do they strong arm people into retiring or kicking the bucket?

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4213 on: September 19, 2020, 05:18:52 PM »
How do the Dems pack the court? How do they strong arm people into retiring or kicking the bucket?

Basically, it can all be done through legislation. There's nothing constitutionally mandated about either the number of justices on the court or how long they serve.

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4214 on: September 19, 2020, 08:09:52 PM »
How do the Dems pack the court? How do they strong arm people into retiring or kicking the bucket?

Basically, it can all be done through legislation. There's nothing constitutionally mandated about either the number of justices on the court or how long they serve.
So they need a majority (simple majority enough?) in the senate to do that?

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4215 on: September 19, 2020, 08:22:21 PM »
How do the Dems pack the court? How do they strong arm people into retiring or kicking the bucket?

Basically, it can all be done through legislation. There's nothing constitutionally mandated about either the number of justices on the court or how long they serve.
So they need a majority (simple majority enough?) in the senate to do that?

Yes. There would be some maneuvers with the filibuster cloture rule but it can be done with a simple majority.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4216 on: September 20, 2020, 03:49:58 AM »
If the Dems have the Presidency, the Senate and the House then they could pass legislation to bypass with some of the more difficult current and potential Supreme Court decisions, such as voting rights and ACA/pre-existing conditions. Roe v Wade could be the biggest problem: it would be hard to get legislation protecting abortion through the legislative process.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4217 on: September 20, 2020, 10:58:02 AM »
Great, just what we need: a bunch of MAGA-bots fired up about an EO to block Trump's opponent.

Quote
In a wide-ranging speech at a campaign rally Saturday night, President Donald Trump ramped up attacks against his opponent, Joe Biden, calling Biden the "dumbest of all candidates," and went so far as to declare, "maybe I'll sign an executive order that you cannot have him as your president."

(Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/20/trump-threatens-to-issue-executive-order-preventing-biden-from-being-elected-president/?fbclid=IwAR2wjO6tlIRAhnxDthQ3ltuXrUl1tM9TNk09ZfdQshidIzf6YlT0X3MtkcY#163147aa76f6

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4218 on: September 21, 2020, 03:57:35 AM »
Great, just what we need: a bunch of MAGA-bots fired up about an EO to block Trump's opponent.

Quote
In a wide-ranging speech at a campaign rally Saturday night, President Donald Trump ramped up attacks against his opponent, Joe Biden, calling Biden the "dumbest of all candidates," and went so far as to declare, "maybe I'll sign an executive order that you cannot have him as your president."

(Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/20/trump-threatens-to-issue-executive-order-preventing-biden-from-being-elected-president/?fbclid=IwAR2wjO6tlIRAhnxDthQ3ltuXrUl1tM9TNk09ZfdQshidIzf6YlT0X3MtkcY#163147aa76f6
That's the part I like about Trump. Not even comedians (or for that matter real dictators) would have come up with that one!

Imagine Putin sitting on his bear doing a facepalm: All that constitution-shuffling, puppet president and pre-filled votes at elections and it would have been so easy!!

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4219 on: September 21, 2020, 07:07:10 AM »
Wait, so all this time we've spent stressed out about an election, when there was a simple way Trump could have fixed it with an executive order? What's taking him so long?!?

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4220 on: September 21, 2020, 08:24:13 AM »
If the Dems have the Presidency, the Senate and the House then they could pass legislation to bypass with some of the more difficult current and potential Supreme Court decisions, such as voting rights and ACA/pre-existing conditions. Roe v Wade could be the biggest problem: it would be hard to get legislation protecting abortion through the legislative process.

Could they create a second branch of the supreme court? From my perspective the supreme court was built for a 1800s country. The US is far too big and far too complex now with the supreme court hearing too few issues. Could they do something like raise the limit to 14-18 justices and split them into 2 groups of 7-9? Stick 3 conservative justices in each one, the liberal justices split, and then biden and co appoint the rest?

Raising the number of justices to 15 makes it liberal again but doesnt impact the actual deficiencies within the supreme court.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4221 on: September 21, 2020, 09:04:49 AM »
If the Dems have the Presidency, the Senate and the House then they could pass legislation to bypass with some of the more difficult current and potential Supreme Court decisions, such as voting rights and ACA/pre-existing conditions. Roe v Wade could be the biggest problem: it would be hard to get legislation protecting abortion through the legislative process.

Could they create a second branch of the supreme court? From my perspective the supreme court was built for a 1800s country. The US is far too big and far too complex now with the supreme court hearing too few issues. Could they do something like raise the limit to 14-18 justices and split them into 2 groups of 7-9? Stick 3 conservative justices in each one, the liberal justices split, and then biden and co appoint the rest?

Raising the number of justices to 15 makes it liberal again but doesnt impact the actual deficiencies within the supreme court.
The UK Supreme Court works in a similar way, but without the politics (judges are politically neutral and appointed through a politically neutral process): there are 12 justices but cases are usually heard by 5 justices, allowing more cases to be dealt with.  2 very important constitutional cases have been heard by 11 justices.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4222 on: September 21, 2020, 09:40:25 AM »
So much of the political dysfunction in our country comes from the structures built in to accommodate slavery at the founding and the subsequent south v north poitical alignments that have followed the civil war, which are just an extension of that divide. Racism and division are the roots of so much. The current state of the Republican party has a lot to do with the Dixiecrats abandoning the Democrats (good riddance!) following the civil rights act.

I've been reading Ezra Klein's "why we are polarized" right now. He is making a compelling case that while there are some policy differences, much of it has to do with the conversion to having politics as part of a cultural identity and the innate human tendency to act strongly against "others" with a different identity (even down to utterly pointless divisions, as shown in numerous research experiments). Hence, the "owning the libs" approach taken by Trump is very effective once a person has identified as anything but a "lib", and why those groups are so immune to change in support regardless of what happens in the factual world. It is worth noting that there is some truth on the other side with TDS, though the same conclusion could also be reached in that case based on a cold read of Trump's pandemic response, etc. .... but i digress. In this context, there is no downside among supporters for breaking rules/norms/precedents to advance your own group, especially if it is bad for the other party. I expect McConnell sees nothing but upside in ramming a SCOTUS appointment through, when viewed through this lens. There is literally nothing in his history I can think of that says he would take any other action.

I honestly don't know how to get around the politics of identity. It is completely anathema to the concept of democracy, which requires deliberation and compromise to function. Party over country is dyfunctional in a democracy no matter the political origin.

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4223 on: September 21, 2020, 10:14:35 AM »
So much of the political dysfunction in our country comes from the structures built in to accommodate slavery at the founding and the subsequent south v north poitical alignments that have followed the civil war, which are just an extension of that divide. Racism and division are the roots of so much. The current state of the Republican party has a lot to do with the Dixiecrats abandoning the Democrats (good riddance!) following the civil rights act.

I've been reading Ezra Klein's "why we are polarized" right now. He is making a compelling case that while there are some policy differences, much of it has to do with the conversion to having politics as part of a cultural identity and the innate human tendency to act strongly against "others" with a different identity (even down to utterly pointless divisions, as shown in numerous research experiments). Hence, the "owning the libs" approach taken by Trump is very effective once a person has identified as anything but a "lib", and why those groups are so immune to change in support regardless of what happens in the factual world. It is worth noting that there is some truth on the other side with TDS, though the same conclusion could also be reached in that case based on a cold read of Trump's pandemic response, etc. .... but i digress. In this context, there is no downside among supporters for breaking rules/norms/precedents to advance your own group, especially if it is bad for the other party. I expect McConnell sees nothing but upside in ramming a SCOTUS appointment through, when viewed through this lens. There is literally nothing in his history I can think of that says he would take any other action.

I honestly don't know how to get around the politics of identity. It is completely anathema to the concept of democracy, which requires deliberation and compromise to function. Party over country is dyfunctional in a democracy no matter the political origin.

The silver lining in this is that typically about 60-70% of Americans agree on most issues. If you can remove the partisanship and just simply ask about certain policies or ideas, most Americans agree on most issues.

The issue has been that a certain political class has been able to leverage our inherited dysfunctional system where they've been able to effectively grab power with a minority rule about 50% of the time over the past 30 years. You can continue to see it where the Trump team knows that they can't win the popular vote. The only path they have is through winning the right minority in order to grab a win. They have no chance of winning back the House, so the only power they can maintain is through the most undemocratic pieces of the constitution.

I believe that the central problem with politics today is that the GOP continues to grab power through minority rule and continues to drive inequality up. Should Dems gain control of all 3 branches of government, they need to immediately reform elections and expand voting rights. Not only would not doing so be completely foolish, but a complete abrogation of what the electorate are asking for.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4224 on: September 21, 2020, 11:13:20 AM »
70% of people agreeing on something doesn't make it wise policy.

It's possible those pluralities agree on any one issue, but would be very worried about implementing a whole portfolio of them.

I think the fractures on most issues in society are real.

Abe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4225 on: September 21, 2020, 04:44:48 PM »
The issue has been that a certain political class has been able to leverage our inherited dysfunctional system where they've been able to effectively grab power with a minority rule about 50% of the time over the past 30 years. You can continue to see it where the Trump team knows that they can't win the popular vote. The only path they have is through winning the right minority in order to grab a win. They have no chance of winning back the House, so the only power they can maintain is through the most undemocratic pieces of the constitution.

I believe that the central problem with politics today is that the GOP continues to grab power through minority rule and continues to drive inequality up. Should Dems gain control of all 3 branches of government, they need to immediately reform elections and expand voting rights. Not only would not doing so be completely foolish, but a complete abrogation of what the electorate are asking for.

This is similar to the machinations of political class of the slave states prior to the War. Though immediate abolition was never a popular opinion, the non-slave states got increasingly upset over the slavers trying to weasel slavery into more and more territories, and gerrymander territories into slave states with the goal of regaining control of the Electoral College and Senate. Ultimately, they bit off more than they could chew, the Republicans came to power railing against these machinations (though they weren't majority pro-abolition), and the slave states refused to acknowledge a fairly elected president when their machinations failed. The point isn't that we're going to have another civil war, but political history is repeating itself in a less extreme fashion. The main thing to note was that the slavers significantly weakened their position outside of slave states by being so uncompromising about that "peculiar institution", even prior to the Civil War. Obviously slavery is far, far more inhumane than what's going on now, but blind ideology is always damaging and both sides should remember the past.

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4226 on: September 21, 2020, 06:06:27 PM »
But also, even after winning the war, Lincoln still had to be convinced of the necessity of the 14th amendment. You could say that Lincoln was a centrist in a mostly centrist party. There was a reason the "leftist" faction were called "Radical Republicans". Lincoln was able to be pushed to make the hard choice to make a major improvement to the country.

I can only hope the Biden is forced to come to the same types of conclusions. Continuing to pretend that there is any good will on the part of the GOP will leave Biden powerless and a wasted presidency. He'll need to wisely select what radical ideas need to be implemented not only to maintain a strong electorate, but also what will actually improve the lives of all Americans. Biden has a strong "left wing" that he has to contend with and will likely have to give them something in order to advance his own agenda.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4227 on: September 21, 2020, 07:33:10 PM »
But also, even after winning the war, Lincoln still had to be convinced of the necessity of the 14th amendment. You could say that Lincoln was a centrist in a mostly centrist party. There was a reason the "leftist" faction were called "Radical Republicans". Lincoln was able to be pushed to make the hard choice to make a major improvement to the country.

I can only hope the Biden is forced to come to the same types of conclusions. Continuing to pretend that there is any good will on the part of the GOP will leave Biden powerless and a wasted presidency. He'll need to wisely select what radical ideas need to be implemented not only to maintain a strong electorate, but also what will actually improve the lives of all Americans. Biden has a strong "left wing" that he has to contend with and will likely have to give them something in order to advance his own agenda.

Making drastic moves to empower voters and de-gerrymander everything would be a huge step in the right direction, IMO...given how entrenched it all is now, I hope it's even possible.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4228 on: September 22, 2020, 05:50:43 AM »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4229 on: September 22, 2020, 06:21:29 AM »
Anyone catch Trump espousing Nazi eugenic theory in Minnesota? Or the Trump supporting motorcade in North Carolina where participants where shouting "White Power" and "Fuck Black Lives Matter?"

Do you think there are any Trump supporters left trying to defend this shit? Seems to me they are rather enjoying it.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4230 on: September 22, 2020, 06:34:18 AM »
I think many reluctant Trump supporters are enjoying the Supreme Court seat he's about to nominate.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4231 on: September 22, 2020, 07:00:37 AM »
I think many reluctant Trump supporters are enjoying the Supreme Court seat he's about to nominate.

The leading contender someone out of “The Handmaid’s Tale”?

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4232 on: September 22, 2020, 08:06:06 AM »
I do not desire to live in a society like the one in the "Handmaid's Tail."

I do believe that Roberts has already shown the way to an under-the-radar destruction of Roe with the Louisiana ruling this past term. We are already in a post-Roe world.

I think the most immediate threat of this court seat is to the Affordable Care Act.

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4233 on: September 22, 2020, 08:06:11 AM »
The Handmaid's Tale is not too far off...

Hawley won't support anyone who considers women as equal citizen:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/josh-hawley-supreme-court-abortion-roe-wade-vote

Hawley may have a veto on this because McConnel can only afford to lose 4 senators.

-----------------------------------------------------

In a way, I like this!

I prefer arguments made in good faith - as abhorrent as they may be. Clarence Thomas equivocated on this issue during his confirmation and then always voted in a stark, partisan manner afterwards.

Due to this, I have more "respect" (not sure I that is the right word to use) for someone like Bork - because he spoke his mind irrespective of consequences - than Thomas.


former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4234 on: September 22, 2020, 09:14:39 AM »
Are there any US lawyers who can explain why preventing a woman from having an abortion isn't the imposition of involuntary servitude contrary to Amendment 13?  If the privacy argument fails what about trying that one?

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4235 on: September 22, 2020, 09:18:24 AM »
Are there any US lawyers who can explain why preventing a woman from having an abortion isn't the imposition of involuntary servitude contrary to Amendment 13?  If the privacy argument fails what about trying that one?

IANAL, but I would guess they’d say the pregnancy is voluntary unless the woman was inseminated against her will.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4236 on: September 22, 2020, 09:22:18 AM »
Are there any US lawyers who can explain why preventing a woman from having an abortion isn't the imposition of involuntary servitude contrary to Amendment 13?  If the privacy argument fails what about trying that one?

IANAL, but I would guess they’d say the pregnancy is voluntary unless the woman was inseminated against her will.

That reasoning is pretty goofy though.

If you voluntarily start working for an employer, but then decide you don't want to any more there's no law that forces you to continue working against your will.

Even assuming that you agree with the argument that every pregnancy is voluntary (which is a big stretch to start with), the woman should be able to opt out of it at any time.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4237 on: September 22, 2020, 09:27:40 AM »


I think the fractures on most issues in society are real.


You are a master of understatement!

lemanfan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4238 on: September 22, 2020, 09:35:38 AM »
Even assuming that you agree with the argument that every pregnancy is voluntary (which is a big stretch to start with), the woman should be able to opt out of it at any time.

Please excuse a foreigner with English as a second language here, but should I read that as that you think that abortion should be allowed for the full duration of the pregnancy? 

On the request of OP further down, please forget this question. :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 09:54:04 AM by lemanfan »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4239 on: September 22, 2020, 09:39:43 AM »
Are there any US lawyers who can explain why preventing a woman from having an abortion isn't the imposition of involuntary servitude contrary to Amendment 13?  If the privacy argument fails what about trying that one?

IANAL, but I would guess they’d say the pregnancy is voluntary unless the woman was inseminated against her will.

That reasoning is pretty goofy though.

If you voluntarily start working for an employer, but then decide you don't want to any more there's no law that forces you to continue working against your will.

Even assuming that you agree with the argument that every pregnancy is voluntary (which is a big stretch to start with), the woman should be able to opt out of it at any time.

I didn’t say I AGREE with that reasoning, just that that’s what they’d say. They’d also say that ending a pregnancy is murder so it’s not the same as your example.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4240 on: September 22, 2020, 09:46:46 AM »
OP Here:

Rather than hashing out abortion on this thread, can I refer you to the writings of conservative commentator David French? You may or may not agree with him, but--because of his legal work--he's able to be pretty specific about unpacking the constitutional/legal justifications for the pro-life cause. It's a lot more intellectually rigorous than "Babiezzzz", or "But maw freedums!!!1!!!" that are seen all too often on the internet.

Can we get back to processing the diverse set of offenses of the Trump administration?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4241 on: September 22, 2020, 10:00:03 AM »
Even assuming that you agree with the argument that every pregnancy is voluntary (which is a big stretch to start with), the woman should be able to opt out of it at any time.

Please excuse a foreigner with English as a second language here, but should I read that as that you think that abortion should be allowed for the full duration of the pregnancy?

Not quite.  I support removal more than abortion.

People have bodily autonomy, regardless of whether or not those choices kill another.  If you have two healthy kidneys and your neighbour is dying of kidney failure, we don't force you to donate your kidney.  Even if it would save the life of your neighbour.

By the same token, a fetus should be removed from a woman who doesn't want it.  If the fetus is late term and can survive on it's own, cool.  Let it become a ward of the state.  If it cannot survive on it's own, then perform a standard abortion.  It would have died if removed anyway . . . just like the neighbour with kidney failure will die without your donation.  This is the only way to preserve the bodily autonomy of the woman.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4242 on: September 22, 2020, 11:03:27 AM »
It's already incorporated in the words of roe vs wade, that viable fetuses cannot be aborted, with the exception it endangers the life of the mother. So all these people talking about this and getting very upset, don't know what they are talking about. My mil had a nonviable pregnancy prior to roe vs wade. The fetus/baby was not going to survive regardless. However she had to wait until it was endangering her health before it could be removed, close to full term.  Obviously a lot more emotionally traumatic, as well as medically dangerous than what is allowed via roe vs wade. The people who want to outlaw or restrict roe vs wade do not like talking about the consequences of outlawing it, which includes more dangerous and later term abortions, which may affect the health, fertility and possibly life of the woman.
 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 11:08:11 AM by partgypsy »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4243 on: September 22, 2020, 12:04:43 PM »
It's already incorporated in the words of roe vs wade, that viable fetuses cannot be aborted, with the exception it endangers the life of the mother. So all these people talking about this and getting very upset, don't know what they are talking about. My mil had a nonviable pregnancy prior to roe vs wade. The fetus/baby was not going to survive regardless. However she had to wait until it was endangering her health before it could be removed, close to full term.  Obviously a lot more emotionally traumatic, as well as medically dangerous than what is allowed via roe vs wade. The people who want to outlaw or restrict roe vs wade do not like talking about the consequences of outlawing it, which includes more dangerous and later term abortions, which may affect the health, fertility and possibly life of the woman.

Catholic-run facilities are doing this now (not performing any procedures that could lead to an abortion, even when the mother’s health is endangered). And often people have no choice to go elsewhere because the Catholic-run company has a monopoly or is the only option under their health insurance. Will try to find the article I read about it.

Not the one I am remembering, but outlines the facts:
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/miscarriage-medicine-growth-catholic-hospitals-and-threat-reproductive-health-care-2013-lois
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 12:09:19 PM by OzzieandHarriet »

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4244 on: September 23, 2020, 03:34:45 AM »
Catholic-run facilities are doing this now (not performing any procedures that could lead to an abortion, even when the mother’s health is endangered). And often people have no choice to go elsewhere because the Catholic-run company has a monopoly or is the only option under their health insurance. Will try to find the article I read about it.

Isn't that infringing on the women's freedom? Surely it is if adding a "this is not a fact" to a tweet is!!
Not to mention violating the doctor's oath?

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4245 on: September 23, 2020, 08:32:02 AM »
Catholic-run facilities are doing this now (not performing any procedures that could lead to an abortion, even when the mother’s health is endangered). And often people have no choice to go elsewhere because the Catholic-run company has a monopoly or is the only option under their health insurance. Will try to find the article I read about it.

Isn't that infringing on the women's freedom? Surely it is if adding a "this is not a fact" to a tweet is!!
Not to mention violating the doctor's oath?
Yep, completely. Just like having entire states with no abortion providers, unreasonable regulations on places like planned parenthood, defunding planned parenthood, no federal funding for abortions, employers who can choose not to offer contraceptives in their health insurance plans, and a whole host of other ridiculous and rights-infringing bullshit that happens every day in the good ol’ US of A.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4246 on: September 23, 2020, 11:30:47 AM »
Catholic-run facilities are doing this now (not performing any procedures that could lead to an abortion, even when the mother’s health is endangered). And often people have no choice to go elsewhere because the Catholic-run company has a monopoly or is the only option under their health insurance. Will try to find the article I read about it.

Isn't that infringing on the women's freedom? Surely it is if adding a "this is not a fact" to a tweet is!!
Not to mention violating the doctor's oath?
Yep, completely. Just like having entire states with no abortion providers, unreasonable regulations on places like planned parenthood, defunding planned parenthood, no federal funding for abortions, employers who can choose not to offer contraceptives in their health insurance plans, and a whole host of other ridiculous and rights-infringing bullshit that happens every day in the good ol’ US of A.

yes. That's why I don't wholy buy the "pro life" aspect of people who say they are pro life, because they seem very dismissive of the emotional and even physical health of the females in the equation. And I have heard many say that pregancy or birth is the "consequence" of sex. It strikes me as being very female-hating.

I've told my story before. When I was going out with my then boyfriend (now ex husband) I went to planned parenthood to get on the pill. They wouldn't give me the pill unless I had an obgyn exam, my first one. They discovered precancerous cells in the cervix and treated me. If I hadn't gone to planned parenthood, there was a very real chance that it would have progressed to cancer and either made me infertile or even killed me. Instead, I was able to be on the pill till I was READY (and healthy enough) to bear children, and had two wonderful healthy kids. So I thank planned parenthood for giving me my family. I really truly want that every single baby born on this planet is born to people who are emotionally, physically etc ready for that baby and can provide a good home. It's the best outcome for the mother, and it's the best outcome for the child. And it's not possible unless women have control over their own reproductive choices.   

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4247 on: September 23, 2020, 02:05:56 PM »
There is this billboard I’ve gone past for one of those fake pregnancy crisis centers that are anti-choice. It has a photo of a big baby smiling and says something to the effect of “babies are joy”. It makes me want to roll my eyes so badly.

I have a baby at home. My third. I worked damn hard and suffered late pregnancies losses and high-intervention, high-risk pregnancies to bring my babies into the world, preemies who had to spend time in the NICU. We are remarkably blessed with education, money, flexible schedules, and so forth. And déspite all that babies are awful. The first year of life and then some with all of my babies was absolute hell. I would only wish that on someone who really really wanted a child. Anyone who isn’t 100% sure shouldn’t be having one and you certainly don’t bring a human being in the world as punishment for some perceived misdeed. That is immoral.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4248 on: September 23, 2020, 03:06:29 PM »
I totally agree ysette. And while I am very glad to have my two kids, each were planned and wanted and so for me whatever I went through was worth it, forced birth just seems horrific to me. Pregnancy is uncomfortable at best, life threatening at worse, and it permanently changes you. You can look at females skeletons and differentiate which have given birth which not by marks on the bones. If you want to see something freaky look up rhombus of michaelis
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 03:19:07 PM by partgypsy »

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4249 on: September 23, 2020, 03:47:40 PM »
Catholic-run facilities are doing this now (not performing any procedures that could lead to an abortion, even when the mother’s health is endangered). And often people have no choice to go elsewhere because the Catholic-run company has a monopoly or is the only option under their health insurance. Will try to find the article I read about it.

Isn't that infringing on the women's freedom? Surely it is if adding a "this is not a fact" to a tweet is!!
Not to mention violating the doctor's oath?
Yep, completely. Just like having entire states with no abortion providers, unreasonable regulations on places like planned parenthood, defunding planned parenthood, no federal funding for abortions, employers who can choose not to offer contraceptives in their health insurance plans, and a whole host of other ridiculous and rights-infringing bullshit that happens every day in the good ol’ US of A.

yes. That's why I don't wholy buy the "pro life" aspect of people who say they are pro life, because they seem very dismissive of the emotional and even physical health of the females in the equation. And I have heard many say that pregancy or birth is the "consequence" of sex. It strikes me as being very female-hating.

I've told my story before. When I was going out with my then boyfriend (now ex husband) I went to planned parenthood to get on the pill. They wouldn't give me the pill unless I had an obgyn exam, my first one. They discovered precancerous cells in the cervix and treated me. If I hadn't gone to planned parenthood, there was a very real chance that it would have progressed to cancer and either made me infertile or even killed me. Instead, I was able to be on the pill till I was READY (and healthy enough) to bear children, and had two wonderful healthy kids. So I thank planned parenthood for giving me my family. I really truly want that every single baby born on this planet is born to people who are emotionally, physically etc ready for that baby and can provide a good home. It's the best outcome for the mother, and it's the best outcome for the child. And it's not possible unless women have control over their own reproductive choices.   

Apparently, fetuses are real people. Grown women are not.