Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 666396 times)

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6384
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4100 on: September 14, 2020, 05:27:03 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

The thing is, I would find this entirely unsurprising, given where this administration has taken us.

wbranch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 183
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Some Mountain Ridge
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4101 on: September 14, 2020, 05:34:58 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3423
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4102 on: September 14, 2020, 05:38:11 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19290
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4103 on: September 14, 2020, 06:13:07 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4104 on: September 14, 2020, 06:30:39 PM »
@sherr, I think many Trump supporters don't desire the "fascism", so much as they've concluded it's a necessary price to pay to keep Democrats out of power.

Do you know what we call Germans who weren't enthused about the fascism but supported Hitler anyway because he said he could fix the economy? We call them fascists.

Nice scare quotes btw, this is literal fascism not "fascism".

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3423
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4105 on: September 14, 2020, 06:36:58 PM »
@sherr, I think many Trump supporters don't desire the "fascism", so much as they've concluded it's a necessary price to pay to keep Democrats out of power.

Do you know what we call Germans who weren't enthused about the fascism but supported Hitler anyway because he said he could fix the economy? We call them fascists.

Nice scare quotes btw, this is literal fascism not "fascism".

It isn't literal fascism because fascism has a set of societal and political tenants that are not in play. It is literal nationalistic authoritarianism that embraces much of the most loathsome tactics of fascism. Even the Nazis didn't start burning people en masse until they had been in power for awhile.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4106 on: September 14, 2020, 06:46:36 PM »
@sherr, I think many Trump supporters don't desire the "fascism", so much as they've concluded it's a necessary price to pay to keep Democrats out of power.

Do you know what we call Germans who weren't enthused about the fascism but supported Hitler anyway because he said he could fix the economy? We call them fascists.

Nice scare quotes btw, this is literal fascism not "fascism".

It isn't literal fascism because fascism has a set of societal and political tenants that are not in play. It is literal nationalistic authoritarianism that embraces much of the most loathsome tactics of fascism. Even the Nazis didn't start burning people en masse until they had been in power for awhile.

I defy you to name a societal and political tenant that does not apply.

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3423
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4107 on: September 14, 2020, 06:59:00 PM »
@sherr, I think many Trump supporters don't desire the "fascism", so much as they've concluded it's a necessary price to pay to keep Democrats out of power.

Do you know what we call Germans who weren't enthused about the fascism but supported Hitler anyway because he said he could fix the economy? We call them fascists.

Nice scare quotes btw, this is literal fascism not "fascism".

It isn't literal fascism because fascism has a set of societal and political tenants that are not in play. It is literal nationalistic authoritarianism that embraces much of the most loathsome tactics of fascism. Even the Nazis didn't start burning people en masse until they had been in power for awhile.

I defy you to name a societal and political tenant that does not apply.

Fascists usually offered something in return for obedience: universal healthcare, labor protections (as long as, you know, you looked and acted right). They also expected the trains to run on time, whereas the current batch think that the trains should run whenever the market demands it, and if they aren't on time it is because there wasn't enough market demand.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2194
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4108 on: September 14, 2020, 07:55:16 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

Presumably when he moves on citizens and permanent residents...

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3423
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4109 on: September 14, 2020, 08:31:44 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

Presumably when he moves on citizens and permanent residents...

Nope, we already sent federal agents into the streets to arrest them. It has to affect the citizens (mayyyybe permanent residents) that currently agree with him.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4110 on: September 14, 2020, 08:50:29 PM »
@sherr, I think many Trump supporters don't desire the "fascism", so much as they've concluded it's a necessary price to pay to keep Democrats out of power.

Do you know what we call Germans who weren't enthused about the fascism but supported Hitler anyway because he said he could fix the economy? We call them fascists.

Nice scare quotes btw, this is literal fascism not "fascism".

It isn't literal fascism because fascism has a set of societal and political tenants that are not in play. It is literal nationalistic authoritarianism that embraces much of the most loathsome tactics of fascism. Even the Nazis didn't start burning people en masse until they had been in power for awhile.

I defy you to name a societal and political tenant that does not apply.

Fascists usually offered something in return for obedience: universal healthcare, labor protections (as long as, you know, you looked and acted right). They also expected the trains to run on time, whereas the current batch think that the trains should run whenever the market demands it, and if they aren't on time it is because there wasn't enough market demand.

"Making America Great Again" as long as you looked "White" and acted "Christian"? Or is that too abstract for you? Fucking over the libs (Californians, Scientists, Democrats, Atheists, Gays, Immigrants, Non-Whits, etc) instead? What about "bringing back manufacturing and coal mining jobs"? "Conservative judges"?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 06:27:21 AM by sherr »

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2624
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4111 on: September 15, 2020, 03:56:59 AM »
And this isn’t the first disaster where she has had to prove herself a competent and empathetic leader.

Sigh. So jealous.

Yeah, we have some American friends who moved to NZ about five years ago for work. They love it there and say they are never coming back. We’re so envious that they live in a beautiful place full of non-crazy people and good, decent leadership. Siiiiiighhh...

We are are constantly pushed in the role of consumer over every other identity in our life as a human. And I see in my city, corporations coming in and mass buying of lower income houses near the city center, razing those houses to build rows of expensive houses. Regular working class people are being outbid by corporations for the American dream of home ownership. how can you fight that? I men I think we are good people but we are living in a dysfunctional system, possibly of our own making.

If it is not your own making, I am curious who do you consider responsible?

Corporations are made of people and I would guess most of them consider them being good people.
A human is made out of cells. Does the indiviudual cell have a say in where it is going?

The whole idea of "incorporation" is that it takes away the human bonds, like responsibility to each other, and re-formulates it in a legal frame.
Anyone knows what a relation based solely on legalities is called?

A corporation makes money, nothing more. As long as you don't accept that, you will always be like someone who is surprised that a storm kicks down trees.

Quote
Of course, they will define it was 'defending democracy' just like East Germany was the 'German Democratic Republic'.
It was extremely democratic! We had lots more people voting, for example.

Quote
And those of you/us who oppose are hostile to the nation and must be purged.
And here again, East Germany was way better. There are way more effective ways (in the long run) than to purge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4764
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4112 on: September 15, 2020, 06:52:56 AM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

Presumably when he moves on citizens and permanent residents...

Nope, we already sent federal agents into the streets to arrest them. It has to affect the citizens (mayyyybe permanent residents) that currently agree with him.

Do you mean something like this?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-voter-immigration-family-separation-georgia-20190519-htmlstory.html

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8091
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4113 on: September 15, 2020, 08:21:48 AM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.
I don’t have words to express how appalling I find this. Not just on a gross human rights violation level but personally as a woman.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8091
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4114 on: September 15, 2020, 08:34:46 AM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

Presumably when he moves on citizens and permanent residents...

Nope, we already sent federal agents into the streets to arrest them. It has to affect the citizens (mayyyybe permanent residents) that currently agree with him.

Do you mean something like this?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-voter-immigration-family-separation-georgia-20190519-htmlstory.html
The power of self delusion is awesome to behold

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19290
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4115 on: September 15, 2020, 09:28:28 AM »
The power of self delusion is awesome to behold

Quote
“Was it a bad decision for my family? Yes,” he said. “Was it a bad decision for our country? I can’t say. Sometimes you can’t just think about yourself. You have to think about the broader picture.… I feel like God will bless my decision.”

Maybe I'm just an unpatriotic asshole . . . but 'good for the country' takes a distant back seat when compared to 'good for my family'.

I'm also confused about the final sentence.  The bible has something to say about about splitting a man and his wife apart  . . .  Mark 10:9: "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5955
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4116 on: September 15, 2020, 09:54:01 AM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.

And on reservations... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_American_women

And in Puerto Rico, and supporting other governments doing the same...but we had, theoretically, moved passed this.

I know, I know.  This is the internet . . . and everything gets compared to Nazis.  But c'mon.  Concentration camps and forced sterlization?  After the earlier trial separation of parents from children and not recording things so they could never be reunited?

How many Nazi playbook calls does Trump get to make before we can make the comparison?

Presumably when he moves on citizens and permanent residents...

Nope, we already sent federal agents into the streets to arrest them. It has to affect the citizens (mayyyybe permanent residents) that currently agree with him.

Do you mean something like this?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-voter-immigration-family-separation-georgia-20190519-htmlstory.html
The power of self delusion is awesome to behold

Jfc.

Quote from: latimes
Sometimes he feels stupid or duped or betrayed.

No, dude, you weren't duped or betrayed. Trump said he was going to build a wall to keep out illegals. "We absolute — we cannot give amnesty."

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4117 on: September 15, 2020, 10:01:07 AM »
So often from Trump supporters I've heard that "you can't take everything he says literally". 

...and then many of them will feign surprise when he winds up attempting to do the very things he's been saying he'd do, like build a wall or treat migrants severely or [insert daily outrage here].  "Well we don't support that and didn't think he'd do it..."

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8091
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4118 on: September 15, 2020, 10:04:09 AM »
So often from Trump supporters I've heard that "you can't take everything he says literally". 

...and then many of them will feign surprise when he winds up attempting to do the very things he's been saying he'd do, like build a wall or treat migrants severely or [insert daily outrage here].  "Well we don't support that and didn't think he'd do it..."

"when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Maya Angelou

Barbaebigode

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4119 on: September 15, 2020, 10:37:42 AM »
So often from Trump supporters I've heard that "you can't take everything he says literally". 

...and then many of them will feign surprise when he winds up attempting to do the very things he's been saying he'd do, like build a wall or treat migrants severely or [insert daily outrage here].  "Well we don't support that and didn't think he'd do it..."

And will still vote for him because reasons.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4764
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4120 on: September 15, 2020, 01:14:28 PM »
If this turns out to have merit upon further investigation, I will be beyond mortified. It is reminiscent of the eugenics sterilization programs in the south.
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/like-an-experimental-concentration-camp-whistleblower-complaint-alleges-mass-hysterectomies-at-ice-detention-center/

As if the detention centers and forced family separations were not already bad enough.
I don’t have words to express how appalling I find this. Not just on a gross human rights violation level but personally as a woman.

Indeed carrying out these surgeries without consent is appalling.

Davnasty

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2705
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4121 on: September 15, 2020, 01:43:07 PM »
Do you mean something like this?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-voter-immigration-family-separation-georgia-20190519-htmlstory.html
The power of self delusion is awesome to behold

Wow, even kindergarteners know how to manipulate Trump:


Ashton's kindergarten class made this booklet and sent it to
the White House in hopes of helping his mother.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 19290
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4122 on: September 15, 2020, 02:27:22 PM »
Do you mean something like this?

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-voter-immigration-family-separation-georgia-20190519-htmlstory.html
The power of self delusion is awesome to behold

Wow, even kindergarteners know how to manipulate Trump:


Ashton's kindergarten class made this booklet and sent it to
the White House in hopes of helping his mother.

If they really knew how to manipulate Trump they would have sent it to Fox news.  Or maybe the Kremlin.

PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 647
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4123 on: September 15, 2020, 03:56:44 PM »
A human is made out of cells. Does the indiviudual cell have a say in where it is going?

The whole idea of "incorporation" is that it takes away the human bonds, like responsibility to each other, and re-formulates it in a legal frame.
Anyone knows what a relation based solely on legalities is called?

A corporation makes money, nothing more. As long as you don't accept that, you will always be like someone who is surprised that a storm kicks down trees.
Like most analogies, this one is quite flawed.

Does a human cell have the option to vote?  Can it make its intentions clear by spending its money elsewhere?  Can a human cell organise and agitate for change on the human or multi-human level?

No single individual is responsible for "society" in and of themselves.  However, society as a whole is made by the choices of the people that make up the society.

So yes, the USA is in a situation of its own making whether any single individual approves of that situation or not.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4124 on: September 15, 2020, 05:06:26 PM »
So often from Trump supporters I've heard that "you can't take everything he says literally". 

...and then many of them will feign surprise when he winds up attempting to do the very things he's been saying he'd do, like build a wall or treat migrants severely or [insert daily outrage here].  "Well we don't support that and didn't think he'd do it..."

Does the RNC or the White House send out decoder rings or something? They always seem to know when he's trolling and when he's not. Although, when he doubles down and clarifies "I'm not joking, I mean every world" they suddenly have no comeback.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4125 on: September 15, 2020, 05:10:15 PM »


No single individual is responsible for "society" in and of themselves.  However, society as a whole is made by the choices of the people that make up the society.

So yes, the USA is in a situation of its own making whether any single individual approves of that situation or not.

Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16576
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4126 on: September 15, 2020, 05:24:07 PM »


No single individual is responsible for "society" in and of themselves.  However, society as a whole is made by the choices of the people that make up the society.

So yes, the USA is in a situation of its own making whether any single individual approves of that situation or not.

Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.

Are you sure?  I just finished The Death of Expertise (Tom Nichols), and now I'm reading The Dictators Handbook: Why Bad Behavior Is Almost Always Good Politics (Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith).  They are both eye openers.

PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 647
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4127 on: September 15, 2020, 05:28:39 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4128 on: September 15, 2020, 05:40:10 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

The current republican coalition, as dictatorial they might be turning, won't be able to destroy US. They are losing demographic clout fast, and economic clout faster. Counties that voted for Trump produced a third of the US GDP in 2016, vs two-third produced by Clinton-voting counties. Whatever damage they may be able to cause if Trump wins, enough of the pieces will be left to be picked up once they are through.

If I had to bet money, I'd say that by 2030, the democrats will gain upper hand in electoral politics at every level of government. So they will now have growing (as opposed to shrinking) political AND economic clout backing them. At this time, if democrats start acting just as ideologically driven as republicans are today, then THAT can really destroy America.


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4129 on: September 15, 2020, 06:03:08 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4130 on: September 15, 2020, 06:27:48 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?

I'm no expert - but my layman's impression is that the original constitution was VERY liberal in the context of that time!!

Consider that they were talking about freedom of citizen's when monarchy was the norm.

From that angle, US would look like the predecessor of all liberal democracies. Isn't it?

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4131 on: September 15, 2020, 06:37:05 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?

By "liberal democracies" I mean  nations characterized by the generalities under definition 2.

liberal
[ˈlib(ə)rəl]
ADJECTIVE

2. relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
"a liberal democratic state"
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 06:50:34 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3126
  • Age: 92
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4132 on: September 15, 2020, 06:39:00 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?

I'm no expert - but my layman's impression is that the original constitution was VERY liberal in the context of that time!!

Consider that they were talking about freedom of citizen's when monarchy was the norm.

From that angle, US would look like the predecessor of all liberal democracies. Isn't it?

Liberal Democracy is another way of referring to western democracy and isn't necessarily invoking right/left politics. This is analogous to liberal markets being something that Milton Friedman could get behind despite being pretty damned conservative.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3695
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4133 on: September 15, 2020, 07:33:10 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

The current republican coalition, as dictatorial they might be turning, won't be able to destroy US. They are losing demographic clout fast, and economic clout faster. Counties that voted for Trump produced a third of the US GDP in 2016, vs two-third produced by Clinton-voting counties. Whatever damage they may be able to cause if Trump wins, enough of the pieces will be left to be picked up once they are through.


I'm withholding judgement on our future until after the election fallout. If Trump is successful in breaking the post office and other voter suppression tactics then who knows what comes next. If he and a number of Republicans are voted out despite these attempts then I'll think more optimistically.  He's spent the last couple years testing the waters on what he can get away with, and so far he's been pretty successful. 

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4764
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4134 on: September 15, 2020, 07:58:17 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

The current republican coalition, as dictatorial they might be turning, won't be able to destroy US. They are losing demographic clout fast, and economic clout faster. Counties that voted for Trump produced a third of the US GDP in 2016, vs two-third produced by Clinton-voting counties. Whatever damage they may be able to cause if Trump wins, enough of the pieces will be left to be picked up once they are through.


I'm withholding judgement on our future until after the election fallout. If Trump is successful in breaking the post office and other voter suppression tactics then who knows what comes next. If he and a number of Republicans are voted out despite these attempts then I'll think more optimistically.  He's spent the last couple years testing the waters on what he can get away with, and so far he's been pretty successful.

A Democratic Senate majority--if it comes to pass this November--will be bare bones, perhaps 51 or 52 seats. And the backlash against them that inevitably moves away from the party in charge will mean it will end quickly. The structure of the Senate will be such that Republicans will have a chance to win power in any election cycle even while demographics move against them. It is far from inevitable that Democrats will build some kind of unbreakable coalition.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4135 on: September 15, 2020, 08:18:19 PM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

The current republican coalition, as dictatorial they might be turning, won't be able to destroy US. They are losing demographic clout fast, and economic clout faster. Counties that voted for Trump produced a third of the US GDP in 2016, vs two-third produced by Clinton-voting counties. Whatever damage they may be able to cause if Trump wins, enough of the pieces will be left to be picked up once they are through.


I'm withholding judgement on our future until after the election fallout. If Trump is successful in breaking the post office and other voter suppression tactics then who knows what comes next. If he and a number of Republicans are voted out despite these attempts then I'll think more optimistically.  He's spent the last couple years testing the waters on what he can get away with, and so far he's been pretty successful.

A Democratic Senate majority--if it comes to pass this November--will be bare bones, perhaps 51 or 52 seats. And the backlash against them that inevitably moves away from the party in charge will mean it will end quickly. The structure of the Senate will be such that Republicans will have a chance to win power in any election cycle even while demographics move against them. It is far from inevitable that Democrats will build some kind of unbreakable coalition.

Statehood of Puerto Rico, Washington DC are pretty inevitable sometime within the next decade or so.

If frustration over Republican gerrymandering and such keeps building up you may even see crazy shit like CA being broken in 7 pieces, NY in 3 etc. etc.


PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 647
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4136 on: September 15, 2020, 08:41:46 PM »
Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?
Others have pretty much summed it up.  I was referring to the idea of a Liberal democracy that allows the individual freedom to vote and express oneself.

The USA as a society is, as you say, very conservative.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3703
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4137 on: September 15, 2020, 09:52:53 PM »
Apparently Trump drawing hurricane predictions on maps with his Sharpie was just a small time warm-up, this could be the most egregious gas-lighting yet - Trump tells ABC in Pennsylvania town hall that he 'up played' severity of coronavirus

Quote
President Donald Trump denied downplaying the threat from coronavirus, telling a town hall on Tuesday that he "up played it" despite his assertion in a recorded interview  this year that he "wanted to always play it down."

Trump made the remarks during a 90-minute town hall hosted by ABC News in the must win battleground of Pennsylvania, an event that served as something of a preview for the presidential debates that are set to begin later this month.     

"Well, I didn't downplay it. I actually, in many ways, I up played it terms of action," Trump said in response to a question about an interview with journalist Bob Woodward in which he said he knew the coronavirus was more deadly and contagious than the flu but continued to compare the two so that people would not panic.

How can you not read that and not know you're being lied to, none of it makes any sense.  'Up played' a pandemic?  If I didn't know better, I'd say this guy had sex with a prostitute while his wife was pregnant and paid his lawyer to make it all go away. 

Sadly, I'm surrounded by Trump supporters that eat all of it up.  There was even a parade for Trump last weekend, full of people lamenting how divided this country is...

Quote
While the crowd was in fervent support of Trump, Gaither’s message was one of unity, calling together both political parties to honor America and the right to vote.
...
“(Trump) seems to be a God-fearing man,” Estes said. “May our country be exalted, may our president be exalted, and we are standing here because we need him to be our president once again.”

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2624
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4138 on: September 16, 2020, 03:50:06 AM »
Wow, even kindergarteners know how to manipulate Trump:


Ashton's kindergarten class made this booklet and sent it to
the White House in hopes of helping his mother.
Damn Democrats, brainwashing kids into making Socialist propaganda!!

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.

Are you sure?  I just finished The Death of Expertise (Tom Nichols), and now I'm reading The Dictators Handbook: Why Bad Behavior Is Almost Always Good Politics (Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith).  They are both eye openers.

Great choice :D
If you read further you will find that the Dictator's Handbook points out that the US, in fact, is not really a Democracy - in the sense that most people have a say. They also point out things that should be fixed to improve that.


Quote
In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?
Anyone can screw you over if you are poor. not rich.

Quote
I'm no expert - but my layman's impression is that the original constitution was VERY liberal in the context of that time!!

Yes and no. Compared to the vast majority of countries, it was. Compared to the various democracies that existed 2000 years prior... meh, not impressive.
Today? Let's just say the writers of the original constitution did not mean (or expected) to exist for it for centuries.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4139 on: September 16, 2020, 05:05:43 AM »
Liberal democracy?  From my experiences the US is one of the more conservative democracies in the world, and steadily becoming even more-so. 

In what way(s) do you see the United States as "liberal"?
Others have pretty much summed it up.  I was referring to the idea of a Liberal democracy that allows the individual freedom to vote and express oneself.

The USA as a society is, as you say, very conservative.
Fair enough... it seems the problem is with the language itself.  By using the term “generally liberal democracy” - the word ‘generally’ can be interpreted as modifying the descriptor ‘liberal’, which would shift the meaning of the phrase ‘liberal democracy.’ As in: a democracy that is generally liberal, rather than “a liberal democracy in general”.
One of the problems of how imprecise the English language is... 
thanks for the clarification.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4764
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4140 on: September 16, 2020, 05:50:06 AM »
Agree.

To which I add, in terms of political economy, societal norms, civil society, etc., liberal democracies tend to  move gradually in the direction of what maximizes satisfaction for a majority of the polity.
The history of Republics in general would seem to indicate that the wants of the few generally win out over the needs of the many until eventually the Republic declines.

Whether the USA, being a generally liberal democracy, can buck this trend is yet to be seen.  However, the last couple of decades in particular would seem to suggest it will not.

The current republican coalition, as dictatorial they might be turning, won't be able to destroy US. They are losing demographic clout fast, and economic clout faster. Counties that voted for Trump produced a third of the US GDP in 2016, vs two-third produced by Clinton-voting counties. Whatever damage they may be able to cause if Trump wins, enough of the pieces will be left to be picked up once they are through.


I'm withholding judgement on our future until after the election fallout. If Trump is successful in breaking the post office and other voter suppression tactics then who knows what comes next. If he and a number of Republicans are voted out despite these attempts then I'll think more optimistically.  He's spent the last couple years testing the waters on what he can get away with, and so far he's been pretty successful.

A Democratic Senate majority--if it comes to pass this November--will be bare bones, perhaps 51 or 52 seats. And the backlash against them that inevitably moves away from the party in charge will mean it will end quickly. The structure of the Senate will be such that Republicans will have a chance to win power in any election cycle even while demographics move against them. It is far from inevitable that Democrats will build some kind of unbreakable coalition.

Statehood of Puerto Rico, Washington DC are pretty inevitable sometime within the next decade or so.

If frustration over Republican gerrymandering and such keeps building up you may even see crazy shit like CA being broken in 7 pieces, NY in 3 etc. etc.

Statement of Sen. Marco Rubio on statehood for Puerto Rico:

https://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2018/6/english-espa-ol-rubio-statement-on-puerto-rico-statehood-bill

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4141 on: September 16, 2020, 08:02:04 AM »
Well, for once I’m in agreement with Sen. Rubio.

Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

Obviously fears of upsetting political power and the perception that Spanish-speaking citizens are somehow ‘lesser’ have hampered progress.  I also think that a large chunk of people simply like having an even 50 states and don’t want there to be 51.

D.C. is a whole other ball of wax.  I grew up there FWIW.  It Ranks 49th in population (if it were a state) and it’s tiny... just 7% the size of the smallest state (RI).  From a practical concern, placing the seat of government inside a state - with full voting rights - is something the framers wished to avoid and sets up an inherent power imbalance.

If D.C. meets the criteria for statehood, the USVI would have a compelling case, as that would eliminate the “it’s too small” argument, or the “it’s filled with people of color” racist argument.   

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16576
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4142 on: September 16, 2020, 09:36:33 AM »
Well, for once I’m in agreement with Sen. Rubio.

Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

Obviously fears of upsetting political power and the perception that Spanish-speaking citizens are somehow ‘lesser’ have hampered progress.  I also think that a large chunk of people simply like having an even 50 states and don’t want there to be 51.

D.C. is a whole other ball of wax.  I grew up there FWIW.  It Ranks 49th in population (if it were a state) and it’s tiny... just 7% the size of the smallest state (RI).  From a practical concern, placing the seat of government inside a state - with full voting rights - is something the framers wished to avoid and sets up an inherent power imbalance.

If D.C. meets the criteria for statehood, the USVI would have a compelling case, as that would eliminate the “it’s too small” argument, or the “it’s filled with people of color” racist argument.

Only 1/4 of Hawaii's population is white.  Precedent already there.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4143 on: September 16, 2020, 09:45:09 AM »
So there’s this... 
While historical wildfires rage across the western US, POTUS again questions climate science:

Although 2020 is on track to be one of the hottest years on record, the president told state and local officials in McClellan Park, Calif., that “it will start getting cooler. You just watch.”



Wade Crowfoot, California’s secretary for natural resources, objected: “I wish science agreed with you.”
“

Well, I don’t think science knows, actually,” Trump replied.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4144 on: September 16, 2020, 10:44:17 AM »
Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

I don't know of any good objective arguments for why any of the US protectorates should be disallowed statehood if they want it. Guam wants it too (86%), and the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa have at least talked about it. So they're small, so what? That's not objective. Wyoming is minuscule too from a population standpoint.

It's purely a matter of the Republicans wanting to keep the anti-democratic tilt of power in the Senate (and therefore Electoral College too) in their favor.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4145 on: September 16, 2020, 11:17:16 AM »
Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

I don't know of any good objective arguments for why any of the US protectorates should be disallowed statehood if they want it. Guam wants it too (86%), and the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa have at least talked about it. So they're small, so what? That's not objective. Wyoming is minuscule too from a population standpoint.

It's purely a matter of the Republicans wanting to keep the anti-democratic tilt of power in the Senate (and therefore Electoral College too) in their favor.

It's an interesting discussion:  How small is too small, and should size matter at all? Given that we have the 'great compromise' of equal senate representation how small a group gets to have a controlling interest in US politics?  De facto it currently stands at Wyoming's 580k.

It gets even more extreme when discussing some of the unincorporated territories like Wake Island (with a year-round population of just 150).

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3126
  • Age: 92
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4146 on: September 16, 2020, 11:26:30 AM »
So apparently the Trump Town Hall on ABC went well last night.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Age: 36
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4147 on: September 16, 2020, 11:28:45 AM »
Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

I don't know of any good objective arguments for why any of the US protectorates should be disallowed statehood if they want it. Guam wants it too (86%), and the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa have at least talked about it. So they're small, so what? That's not objective. Wyoming is minuscule too from a population standpoint.

It's purely a matter of the Republicans wanting to keep the anti-democratic tilt of power in the Senate (and therefore Electoral College too) in their favor.

It's an interesting discussion:  How small is too small, and should size matter at all? Given that we have the 'great compromise' of equal senate representation how small a group gets to have a controlling interest in US politics?  De facto it currently stands at Wyoming's 580k.

It gets even more extreme when discussing some of the unincorporated territories like Wake Island (with a year-round population of just 150).

The rule of thumb throughout history has been population of 60k, which predates the constitution and aligns with the size of Delaware in the first census (59k). Wyoming famously had trouble reaching that requirement at first. Even the Northern Mariana Islands are close to qualifying by that metric.

Disallowing statehood to Puerto Rico and Guam is 100% political. Republicans don't want to do anything that would jeopardize their current undemocratic stranglehold on power.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:51:29 AM by sherr »

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4148 on: September 16, 2020, 12:56:45 PM »
Well, for once I’m in agreement with Sen. Rubio.

Objectively there’s no damn reason why Puerto Rico should not have statehood.  It has more citizens than 20 current US states, with roughly the same number of people as Iowa.  It’s larger in area than Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island.

Obviously fears of upsetting political power and the perception that Spanish-speaking citizens are somehow ‘lesser’ have hampered progress.  I also think that a large chunk of people simply like having an even 50 states and don’t want there to be 51.

D.C. is a whole other ball of wax.  I grew up there FWIW.  It Ranks 49th in population (if it were a state) and it’s tiny... just 7% the size of the smallest state (RI).  From a practical concern, placing the seat of government inside a state - with full voting rights - is something the framers wished to avoid and sets up an inherent power imbalance.

If D.C. meets the criteria for statehood, the USVI would have a compelling case, as that would eliminate the “it’s too small” argument, or the “it’s filled with people of color” racist argument.

It's my understanding that DC Statehood would not put the seat of government inside a state. It would shrink the current DC down to a few blocks where the actual buildings are. Now constitutionally that would be interesting as only a few people would still be living in DC, but would they still have rights to 3 electoral votes despite being reduced from a population of 700k to something more like 50k? They would be the most powerful votes per person in the country.

There's also the whole reason why we have both a North and South Dakota. It was 100% because the party in power then wanted more Senate seats. So there you go. We've been making stupid municipal decisions all because the founders were unable to imagine the future of manifest destiny where 35 more states were arbitrarily carved in order to achieve greater political power. I say, dems should add whatever extra states they want. The senate is a stupid game, and it should be shown to be a stupid game.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15471
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4149 on: September 16, 2020, 01:08:07 PM »

It's my understanding that DC Statehood would not put the seat of government inside a state. It would shrink the current DC down to a few blocks where the actual buildings are. Now constitutionally that would be interesting as only a few people would still be living in DC, but would they still have rights to 3 electoral votes despite being reduced from a population of 700k to something more like 50k? They would be the most powerful votes per person in the country.


I'm not sure I follow.
How would DC Statehood lead to a state with 50k people and 3 electoral votes?  What would happen to the other 700k-odd people currently residing in DC?

Growing up I also heard about the 'excluding federal properties and various government buildings' - which would be a bit bizarre as they are scattered around the entire city. It would also result in a state unlike any other.  Absolutely tiny - even compared to wee Rhode Island.  By far the highest population density of any state, with negligible forest, agricultural and interstates, but lots of urban needs.... I wonder how it would play out whenever a farming bill came to the floor...